Author Topic: Hi and maybe a little info.....  (Read 18850 times)

Offline kosowith

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 03:44:39 pm »
Hello Rhiannon

I had wanted to post some of my thoughts earlier - but Super Dog and LittleOldMan said most of what I wanted to say - and better than I could.

Just let me add - that I see many "non-Indian" people at ceremonies - but as already stated it is because they have seriously invested in, committed themselves to that community. I know one Dutch man that assists in a Sun Dance every summer.  He also sends his adopted family money to help them every month, travels there when ever he is needed, and is absolutely part of the family and community.  Its all about responsibility.  There are NO rights without first knowing  and fulfilling the responsibilities.

If you study American Indian languages one of the most remarkable things is that many do not have personal pronouns. No:  I, me, my, mine, etc.  There are only:  we, our, ours.  This is important because it shows how important community is.  The names most American Indian Nations called themselves prior to colonization usually translates as some version of “we are the people who… or, we are the people of…” ie: Community is everything.   

A really good rule to remember (also already stated) is that there should never a "the" attached to the word "Indian." According to David Hurst Thomas, there is more diversity within the American Indians groups of  North American than in all the other groups together that make up the US and Canada. With AI communities, One size does not fit all Indians - ever! 

When I was teaching Introduction to Native American Studies I did a little quiz to start the class and one of the questions was: "List 5 things you think you know about American Indians. (don't worry about offending me)"
Now this is in a state where 99.9% of the diversity is Native American and the same untruths showed up every semester.  Just as a side note they were, 1. Most Indians are alcoholics, 2.  all Indians get a free college education, 3. all Indians get a new car and $1,500. a month from the US government when they turn 21, 4. Indians don't pay taxes, 5. Indians were "given" their reservations by the US government.  I always enjoyed this little exercise, since it gave me a chance to prove through documentation what incredible lies all of these myths are and once that was out of the way we could get on with real learning.

I really understand the expenses of college and why someone would try to get a little extra funding, However, for those of us who struggled to survive while getting a degree (I went to college as a single parent, with two children, worked two jobs, graduated Summa Cum Laude, and 15 years later am still paying for my college loans.) it is very hurtful that so many people only want to be part of their Indian heritage if they think it will get them something. Most money that is available to Indian students is through Pell Grants and LOANS.(that have to be paid back) There were Indian fee waivers and special monies offered, but the requirements were so outlandish few ever applied for them.  NO other grant was tied to as high a 2.8 GPA, documentation of extreme financial need, and quarterly re-evaluations including having to turn over Social security information to prove what money you made and what your expenses were, what kind of car you drove, etc.  And still there were state congressmen that said the fee waiver should be eliminated since "the Indians" would just spent their money on getting drunk.  (Guess they couldn't understand that these were fee waivers - not money in hand)

DNA – well…ok – where to even start -  I do work with DNA and the bottom line is that it really does not matter what your mtDNA indicates – that still does not situate you within a living breathing interactive community.  The Human Genome Project is so controversial in many Indian communities that stating that you have paid to have the testing done (not inexpensive) will only generate more animosity, not acceptance.  Its no better than your ubiquitous shovel-shaped incisors (although I still love mine :-D)  Looks are just looks. They do not link you to a community.

I know I am beating this to death, but identity and ceremony is absolutely about participation and responsibility to a community.  Because of removal of children from homes, termination policy and relocation policies there are many people who have been detached from their communities of origin and now are struggling and searching as you seem to be.  Many of those who are enrolled, but do not live in the community often face extreme hostility and resentment when they try to go home.  This is the colonial legacy, but many communities are working on the issue and we all hope that there will be a brighter future for our kids and grandkids. 

If you should decide that you want to try to find your community of origin and give something of yourself to them, I would suggest the absolute best place to start is in the genealogy archives of the Church of Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City, Utah, and you do not have to be a member to use the archives. They are accessed and used by people world wide

Offline Scott Brainard

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 11:04:45 pm »
Hey from another mystery mutt.   

Try http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=79.0 for reading suggestions if you like, some good recommends in there.

--Scott B. 

Offline tachia

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 05:25:08 am »
rhiannon

you got some good answers in here .. question is  .. will you pay attention to them .. ..
one thing no one mentioned that you need to realize .. that would explain a lot about our exchanges with you .. .. while we may be the first ndn's that you have asked your questions of, and told your stories to .. .. you certainly are NOT the first person that we have heard say these very things! .. after a while we just get sick of it .. sick of hearing the same sort of "stories", the same old bs, told with the same sense of entitlement, the same anger, resentment and ignorance, etc .. .. everyone and their dog now wants to be ndn .. why? ..  truthfully, you would not last one day on any rez with your attitude, and probably would not last a week even if you changed your attitude .. it is not easy being ndn, it is not a game, etc .. .. ah well .. ..

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 05:46:36 am »
everyone and their dog now wants to be ndn .. why?

Because they think it's all Dances with Wolves, and they have no idea what modern NDN life is actually like. And then if they realize that NDNs are normal people, not something out of an historical re-enactment, they assume real NDNs are "not really Indian" and that the white pretendians have "Indian souls" because they're playing dress up and lost in fantasies. It's a total disconnect from reality.

Offline rhiannon02

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 08:24:28 pm »
I am writing in humble thanks for the respect of an honest response and lessons to LittleOldMan, Superdog, bullhead and kosowith.  I would like to address your main points, yet be as brief as I can.

LittleOldMan – I am female, however, age is relative.  I feel that I may be young to you but am no longer a wild, naïve young lady either.  In my native heritage, however, yes - I am a very young child.  That is when I sort of turned my back to it- the native heritage (long story that doesn’t belong here) and “grew up” for lack of better expression.  To the responses for you and Superdog, I’ll try to get through this without crying as I can feel that young child wanting me to return.  I have researched my ancestry a bit, along with others in our family.  The German is very easy as three generations ago, my great grandparents came on a ship and there is documentation.  We have a family will from ages back from Germany as well to know that in a small village there - an uncle was quite important because he had four goats and had a will.  I don’t remember the details on the translation of this – the original hangs in my parents’ office, but the gist was that at his time he was really important, not like a Count or Barron important, but he had his own livestock which made him really something it seems.  I find great giggles in this today seeing how much things have changed for that side of my family and the country as a whole.  The English, and a bit lucky with finding some of the Irish heritage, also not much of a problem.  There was documentation, even some type of number assigned in NY to my first English ancestor here.  There are also huge gaps though after this great-great grandfather moved west.  There was a wife that didn’t even have a first name given on the U.S. census record that I found.  It just listed her husband’s last name, female, wife and approximate age.  There are many of these gaps.  I will try the source’s that have been listed here; however, I don’t know how much luck I will have.  The story that was told to me, and also to my aunts and uncles - that would listen, was that the English came, they started messing with the Natives (not called that by this person) and there we came – as if either before the removal from their land or who knows what.   It’s funny to see some here mention that what I said about my experience was a racist slur.  We knew this - as that’s why I think his story was told with such disdain – maybe a bit too many racial slurs cast his way long before my first.  He loved the ways that he learned it seemed to me, as he lived off the land, told what stories that he knew – so VERY, VERY few and VERY simplistically all of his life, but there seemed to be a pain or sadness there too.  As I grew up feeling a bit lost in myself – like not complete – and being judged many times, I wondered what my aunts and uncles and even before them must have went through.  I came to figure that this is why he told the story with a touch of disgust.  I don’t know how admirable the undertaking is, as it has always seemed a daunting and pretty impossible task since my understanding is that my direct native ancestors never made it as far west as a reservation, but look forward to trying to learn more now.  I remember when I was very young I wanted to go and spend time learning the language and basic teachings just to know who we were, but I didn’t know where to start then either so I just turned it off.  I have read a lot in the last year or so, when the real calling came back, and continue to do so.  I began going to pow-wows but feel the two that I’ve really attended felt a bit too commercialized.  There was a group of dancers that were hired from out west though, that I wondered how to be able to ever talk to someone for real like that for lack of good expression there.  The head guy in charge had that feel to him also, but he didn’t even come off as very approachable – especially in the heat and business of the days.  I’ve never approached because, regardless of the impression formed here, I don’t just go and start speaking, as I have nothing to add to them at first approach.  I do not feel a right to be included.  I want to and am willing as that’s part of the learning.  If people closer to the tribal origins of my own do not do this, OK.  It’s funny I have a few dear friends on a rez, but such a far removed tribe from any of my origins.  Point being, I get to learn and receive a great deal from them.  I was just wanting to expand my search to include the lineage for my own family to be able to share with my daughter so that when she thinks why do I not care about that thing the way others do or why …. – she’ll be able to understand her entire being more, not just parts of a puzzle with many blanks yet to fill.  Sorry that got a little long, but that takes care of some of the others’ responses also.

Superdog – I’ve already answered much of this above.  In short, sure, I totally agree that I’m trying to find myself.  I also feel though that it’s more than this, I’m trying to be able to make use of myself on my path.  This seems to me to have to have more of those blanks filled in on the whole me.  I’ve lived enough and through enough to know fully who I am and what values are mine; thus, the attitude that to many seems disrespectful.  I didn’t come in asking for as Laurel put it – the secret password, or that anyone take me underwing and teach me these things.  Thus, I didn’t come in offering anything with my head a hanging.  I merely wanted to know if I partake in the journey will I ever be able to participate aside from these sellable shows that I’ve been to already and where to begin this journey.  Many have spoken and to you all I give thanks.  I know enough and am sure enough in myself to know that I bow to no one.  Coming into my ways as a child – that’s precious.  I feel like now though I’m the old lady that has been completely swept back into being 6, running through the field with my little drum and playing with my “friends” – none of which were really there to anyone besides me.  I grew up and turned my back on these “friends” and for some reason, I hear them calling again and feel their tugs to return.  I am up for the work, commitment, etc.  I’ve felt outside most of my life so trying to learn and gain acceptance and feeling outside would be nothing new; however, the big hindrance is that there is NO real native community where I live.  There used to be a N.A. AA program in a town about an hour or so from me many years ago.  I don’t know if this is still together or not.  Aside from that, finding a “community” to become involved in is virtually nil aside from fakes and wannabes also.  Thus my question posted here.  My other big factor is could I move to where a community is?  Sure, someday perhaps.  My child is the most precious thing and I can’t uproot her from family and all she knows here to go and “find myself”.  Should have done that in the first 40 years or more then.

Bullhead – thank you much for the information.  This will be the first place that I begin my new search.

Kosowith – your post was extremely thoughtful.  Huge thanks to you, also for the free lessons.  I had no idea that natives didn’t get a free education and in the form of Pell grants at that.  As a fellow working single parent through school, until post-grad work, the expenses are enormous and Pell grants are virtually nothing. I was only a child when my aunt began her search for this funding, but if I’m remembering the scenario correctly, a financial or guidance counselor suggested to her that she do this – not like she went looking to take something from someone that needed it worse than she, as she wound up dropping anyways.  Point is I didn’t know this and from what I vaguely remember of it all when she was having trouble financing, someone at the school mentioned it.  Therefore, she most likely didn’t know this either.  We –the entire family – are not people who are out looking for anything.  We’ve lived with enough animosity from others that we were and are not looking at our roots for something of a fad, as it’s not a cool label or fad so it seems counter-intuitive that anyone would even go there other than from the financial gains to be had on the spirit side if they write a book or whatever.  I’m sorry that my posts come across as disrespectful, especially to the point where people are saying that I have no right for anything and am asking for a password.  I’ve re-read my posts several times, I see nowhere in either of them where I ask for anything nor say that it’s my right, but from this being my first impression to you being as such - I would like to offer a thank you for still taking the time for such a great, honest, respectful and informative response.

Scott and wh – thanks for the welcome and thanks for the link Scott.  Off to amazon.

This is a question that I have been wondering in the last month or so nosing through the articles and posts on here and seeing so many using NDN and other terms for indians.  Isn’t the use of the word Indian disrespectful in itself – as natives aren’t Indians and that was the whites’ term for them?  That’s the mindset of those that I’ve met around my area.  I welcome any responses done in respectful fashion.

Also, to the first responses that I received.  No matter what disrespect many here have taken from me, I have apologized twice if you took it personally or as I was trying to take something from you.  However, the disrespect was never directed at you personally nor your families such as the token auntie crack.  She is an Aunt not an "auntie"!  I was going to let this go, but I cannot and should not.  This was VERY disrespectful and would appreciate such comments just being handed over to earth or sky to take and not to burden me, your or anyone else here reading with comments as such.  Thank you.

Offline kosowith

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2009, 10:39:54 pm »
Dear Rhiannon,

Thank you for telling us a bit more about you. I didn’t think you meant to be disrespectful, it was my personally impression that you just didn’t know the reality of the situation and were a victim of the same stereotypes that haunt all of us.  Not living in an Indian community you can not know that some of these things may have completely different interpretations to what they do outside the community. There are so still so many misconceptions and negative stereotypes about Indian people. Hollywood really did its myth making job well.

BTW - Today the number one incorrect stereotype is that all Indian nations have profitable casinos and all Indians are rich.  I wish!. These days I could really use the money.  Someone out there still has my new car and monthy per-caps that they also think we get. Only a VERY small percentage of the federally recognized Indian nations have profitable casinos, and with the hard economic times some of them are losing ground.

And as to a guidance counselor telling your aunt to look for Indian money, it does not surprise me.  I was given a list that included a Jewish organization because I was listed as a “minority student” in the computer and to the financial aid guy – we were all the same – “Non-white.”  Of course my advisor told me he didn’t have time to help me plan my classes, as the only reason an Indian woman would go to college is to try to trap a white husband.  Unfortunately all the one I trapped were useless and I had to throw them back. (just joking)

I’m going to throw some more stuff out there for you.  I hope you don’t mind. I’m an educator and I would rather educate someone who has questions than chase them away.

 First off – is the term Indian incorrect, offensive,  acceptable, unforgivable, or just plain wrong?   Well, yes and/or no  – that depends entirely who you talk to and where.  I grew up calling myself an “Indian” when I was outside my community. In the Northern Plains everyone I knew used the term, Indians. Of course it is based on a lost idiot’s misnomer.  As everyone knows Columbus thought he was at the mouth of the River Ganges along the Indus, so he called the people he encountered “Indians” It was carried into the north and we all ended up being “Indians.”  Around the 1950s and 1960s, as more people from India and Indios from Central and South America immigrated to the US the terms American Indians and North American Indians gained popularity.  In the 1980s especially in academia Native American became the term of choice, at least for some. In Canada Indian is not preferred and they tend to use First Nations or First Peoples. Internationally, according to the United Nations and international law – the term of preferred use is “Indigenous peoples” and don’t forget that it is plural.  The indigenous peoples working groups debated for 15 years over singular “people” or plural “peoples”(plural won) in the Declaration.  So the bottom line is, every one of these terms had inherent problems. Everyone is wrong is some way, but is accepted by some Indian people. If you wish to be absolutely correct, you would have to know the name of the particular person’s nation, in that language.  For example – Cheyenne did not call themselves “Cheyenne” before white contact.  They would have said (and at Lame Deer still do say) a variation of Tsistsistas  (there are several variations in spelling) The Crow say Apsáalooke, Blackfeet say Pikuni, Peigan Kainai, or Siksika. All of these names tell a story of a community and the relationships between its members. Most are some variation of where they came from.  At the end of the day – there is no consensus. So this is one you just can’t win every time.  There is a good chance that no matter what you say someone with wounded soul will be offended.  You just have to be ready to say, I don’t know what you prefer.  Sorry.

It is a sad fact, but Indian communities have a lot of people who are wounded and have been for generations.  And being wounded many tend to strike out.  I find I some times jump at an imagined offence when none was meant. For me, it has taken a long time to get used to having at least one person at any lecture I give tell me that they have an Indian princess in their family, or that they were an Indian in a former life.  It took me one very, very brief step toward a very low level of tribal politics to see that I personally do NOT have a thick enough skin to deal with it.  No, not, never! 

Pow wows – Well there is a wide variety of those too.  If you ever get the chance do try to go to a small non-competition event.  They are wonderful.  Big ones, especially ones like Denver March, Gathering of Nations, Red Earth, etc. tend to be more commercial, but then if there are not lots of vendors, we complain about that too – or I do.   Its like my dad always said to tease my auntie who was a waitress.  This food was the worst I’ve ever eaten and there wasn’t nearly enough of it.

That brings up another issue. I’m not sure what your comment about “aunt” versus auntie” was in reference to, but in every Indian community I know of,  the term “auntie” is meant as an real honor and used with absolute respect.  Many kids I am not related to “biologically” call me auntie and I act as an teacher to them as a responsibility to that term.  In the old days children were taught and were more the responsibility of aunties and uncles than parents.  There was less tension that way.

Back to pow wows just for a minute, where I am from, pow wows are a social gathering.  They are not sacred, although if the pow wow arena is blessed it is sacred and to be respected.
A good MC will tell non-Indian visitors a lot about the traditions, when they can take pictures, when they can’t, when you can copy songs, when you can not, when to stand, etc.  If they say “Inter-tribal” then everyone can  dance. This is your chance to join in.  If you have a shawl, it is good to wrap it around your shoulders but DO join in – just don’t “free form dance” I see a lot of non-Indians doing some sort of interpretive dance that is not anything “native” It does get a lot of laughs, but to avoid that just find a traditional woman about your age and follow what she does. Its better to not try fancy shawl or jingle without regalia. 

Participation in ceremony – there are many ways to “participate” and many of those are open to you as a guest at a ceremony.  For just about every ceremony there have to be people who cook for the feast, clean up, run errands, and just add their prayers and support.  Even for people born and raised in Indian communities not everyone fasts, sweats, quests, Sun Dances, Stomps, or does any other ceremony. 

Some other basic facts.  Historically – As Indian homelands were invaded treaties were signed and usually broken by the White people, within days of the signing.  Peaceful villages like those of Black Kettle and White Antelope were attacked and slaughtered and mutilated. Lands were whittled away and people starved or froze to death when blankets were never delivered. After the Indian wars were declared over, all things Indian were outlawed.  Language, dress, customs were forbidden. (1880s) Ceremonies that were maintained had to done in secret.  It is amazing that anything is left, and this is part of the reason so many Indian people get so upset when non-Indians now want to take these cherished ceremonies and twist them to their own devises. By 1879-1950 Indian children as young as 4 were removed from families and sent far away from family to sever any family ties. The policy was “to save the child you must kill the Indian.” This multi-generational trauma still haunts communities today.

Today American Indian people remain the poorest of the poor. On a national average, a family of 4 lives on less than 60% of what is considered poverty level.  Indian reservations and inner-city communities have the highest rates of TB, cancer, diabetes (the highest rates of any ethnic group) heart disease.  Until in the 1980s it was not unusual for an Indian woman seeking gynecological care at a Indian Health Service to be sterilized without her consent.  (this was also done to poor women of all colors) Children were forcibly removed from families and adopted to non-tribal families.  It seems that every time Indian people tried to take a step forward they were knocked three feet back.  As Red Could said, “the white man made us many promises, but he only ever kept one.  He promised to take our land and he took it.”

I guess I am just rambling here, and avoiding working on an very overdue chapter of a book that I am struggling with.  I  hope you don’t mind this clarification of your questions and history lesson.  I apologize for any redundancy if you already knew all this.

Offline grumpyoldman

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2009, 11:27:17 pm »
Kosowith,
I would like to thank you for one of the above post. It is one of the best short explanations of what it is to be an American Indian I have seen. I will ink several folks I know to it as I am tired of arguing with them.
 Many of the things you said I learned many many years ago living in South Dakota.
 It has been almost 40 years and names have faded but Uncle and Auntie still will bring a smile and a remembrance of a special person. I was not a hippie searching for myself, I was a veteran trying to find myself after being lost to a very unpopular war. For a California boy a ranch in S Dak and later 2yrs at Homestake mine gave me the place and the means to meet many fine folks from the area. My first wife although white was a Rapid gulch local who ran with the folks from PineRidge.
 I have Grand children who still live there and it saddens me to here that not much has changed in the attitudes of ignorant people concerning the people who were there first.

I have always laughed at the term Native American as any one born from Hudson bay to the tip of South America is a " native American". I also find it quite arrogant for folks to take  " American" to mean you are from the United States. That, is a misnomer.
Thank you again for that post.
 Grumpyoldman

Offline Superdog

  • Posts: 440
Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2009, 06:48:14 pm »


Superdog – I’ve already answered much of this above.  In short, sure, I totally agree that I’m trying to find myself.  I also feel though that it’s more than this, I’m trying to be able to make use of myself on my path.  This seems to me to have to have more of those blanks filled in on the whole me.  I’ve lived enough and through enough to know fully who I am and what values are mine; thus, the attitude that to many seems disrespectful.  I didn’t come in asking for as Laurel put it – the secret password, or that anyone take me underwing and teach me these things.  Thus, I didn’t come in offering anything with my head a hanging.  I merely wanted to know if I partake in the journey will I ever be able to participate aside from these sellable shows that I’ve been to already and where to begin this journey.  Many have spoken and to you all I give thanks.  I know enough and am sure enough in myself to know that I bow to no one.  Coming into my ways as a child – that’s precious.  I feel like now though I’m the old lady that has been completely swept back into being 6, running through the field with my little drum and playing with my “friends” – none of which were really there to anyone besides me.  I grew up and turned my back on these “friends” and for some reason, I hear them calling again and feel their tugs to return.  I am up for the work, commitment, etc.  I’ve felt outside most of my life so trying to learn and gain acceptance and feeling outside would be nothing new; however, the big hindrance is that there is NO real native community where I live.  There used to be a N.A. AA program in a town about an hour or so from me many years ago.  I don’t know if this is still together or not.  Aside from that, finding a “community” to become involved in is virtually nil aside from fakes and wannabes also.  Thus my question posted here.  My other big factor is could I move to where a community is?  Sure, someday perhaps.  My child is the most precious thing and I can’t uproot her from family and all she knows here to go and “find myself”.  Should have done that in the first 40 years or more then.



I'm glad that you got most of what I was talking about as for the beginning as a child comment.  Don't take offense to that as it wasn't meant to be offensive.  It's just a way of putting it.  I just mean that you are starting from the beginning and you have to come at it with the attitude of openness and willingness to learn....humble and in realization of  your innocence like when we were all kids and someone was teaching you to tie your laces or brush your teeth.  It's just an observation from your writings that you are a little on the abrasive side and it's not gonna help you when trying to make relationships and bonds with good people who would be willing to help you.  It's not the imagery that you suggest (running through the fields beating a drum...which, btw is a little on the romantic side...i've never done that and I've been a singer all my life) and I didn't mean it as such.  I'm not talking down to you, I'm relating these things as I've learned them and doing my best to be as real as possible with you....maybe it wasn't what you wanted to read, but which would you rather have...

I wish you nothing but good luck in your journey.  My intention is try and keep you on a productive path in it.  The warning about shortcuts is real...it won't serve you so never get desperate.  Every day is something to learn and I live by that too.  Even in our communication I get that I said things that could've been said better,  so I acknowledge it to you and I will do better.

Superdog

Offline earthw7

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Re: Hi and maybe a little info.....
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 04:07:34 am »
Hey everyone what a great job you haver done explaining. My hat off to you all.

There are no easy answers and there are no easy ways.

The ceremonies belong to the Nation of people who have always lived
it and died for it.

The white culture is different from us in the way we think that we end up
with cultural difference. i person who grew up total in the american culture
will make many mistakes. They will come and offend our elders and our people
and not know that they did anything.

I do genealogy for my people and it is easy you just have to take the time todo
it.
In Spirit