NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: nemesis on June 28, 2010, 10:46:28 am
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9:48am UK, Monday June 28, 2010
Ian Woods, Australia correspondent
An exotic dancer has prompted outrage by performing a striptease at the top of Aboriginal Australia's most sacred site.
French-born Alizee Sery walked to the summit of Uluru - formerly known as Ayers Rock - and was filmed stripping down to her bikini bottoms.
The central Australian site is considered so important to the country's indigenous people, they ask visitors not to climb the monolith or even take photos and videos.
Despite this, the government allows tourists to explore the rock while it considers a climbing ban.
It has adopted a wait-and-see approach, postponing a decision and promising to consult with tour operators as well as local people.
Indigenous leaders now want Ms Sery deported - but she claims she did it as a "tribute" to their culture.
"I do not mean in any way for this video to offend the Aboriginal culture, I am aware that Uluru is sacred in their culture," she told Northern Territory News.
"My project is a tribute to the greatness of the rock. What we need to remember is that traditionally, the Aboriginal people were living naked.
"So stripping down was a return to what it was like.
"After such a hard climb, when you reach the top, the view and the magic of the place gives you an amazing feeling of peace and freedom.
"You want to sing, dance - and strip."
Ms Sery was filmed on top of Uluru
But Alison Hunt, a member of the board of management that runs the site, said she was angry and disgusted at the stunt.
"This is an important spiritual place. It's not a tribute to the traditional owners, it's an insult.
"We try to share our land and work together and we think it is disgusting for someone to try and make money out of our sacred land."
David Ross, director of the Central Land Council which represents the traditional owners of Uluru, said the woman should be deported.
"Too often Uluru is used as a place for individuals to pursue some questionable personal development activities at the expense of Aboriginal law and culture," he said in a statement.
But despite the outrage, a writer with The Australian newspaper has put the raunchy stunt in perspective by reminding readers that the rock used to be seen as the outback equivalent of the "Mile High Club".
David Nason said: "There was a time not so long ago when young lovers in Alice Springs thought nothing of demonstrating their affections for each other atop Ayers Rock.
"Sure, she might have applied some of the exotic skills of her trade in completing the task but even so, it would barely have counted as foreplay in the rock's fornicating yesteryear."
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Uluru-Strip-Australia-Exotic-Dancer-Prompts-Aboriginal-Outrage-After-Ayers-Rock-Striptease/Article/201006415655822?f=rss
and in another report
A French-born stripper has been filmed dancing near-naked on top of Aboriginal Australia's most sacred site, Uluru, in what she says is a homage to local indigenous people.
Alizee Sery, a 25-year-old exotic dancer, has been labelled ''stupid'' and local indigenous elders have described the act as the equivalent of defecating on the steps of the Vatican.
more:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/australia/3862126/Uluru-strip-angers-indigenous-people
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I haven't looked into all the links, but to me this seems an obvious publicity stunt, with no "honoring" involved or intended (unless the woman in question is mentally ill).
If she really did think it was an honor, it does seem typical of so many of the offensive actions we've seen, where the outsider to a culture wants to determine what is honorable behavior based on their values, not the values of the culture they are "honoring".
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Definitely a cheap publicity stunt by someone who seems unable to comprehend the first thing about respecting other people's culture and land.
There are a couple of videos of her "performance" on youtube and the comments are interesting.
The Aboriginal people and their supporters are furious, understandably, but there are a lot of pig ignorant comments claiming that, as people have been climbing up the rock to have sex for decades that the striptease is no big deal.
I can't imagine how such outrageous statements would make the Aboriginal people feel.
Hopefully something good will come out of it and the whole area will be closed to all but the Aboriginal people, which is how it should have been in the first place.
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Hopefully something good will come out of it and the whole area will be closed to all but the Aboriginal people, which is how it should have been in the first place.
Agreed, altough it is still a dream of mine to be able to visit this holy place.
When visiting i would do so in the presence of an aboriginal and listen to what he or she has to say.
Blessings,
Wayne
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Hopefully something good will come out of it and the whole area will be closed to all but the Aboriginal people, which is how it should have been in the first place.
Agreed, altough it is still a dream of mine to be able to visit this holy place.
When visiting i would do so in the presence of an aboriginal and listen to what he or she has to say.
Blessings,
Wayne
Wayne
You describe native people, whether American or Australian, as though they are merely actors in the theatre of your internal world, devoid of any needs, feelings or rights outside of your personal aspirations.
You post on a thread about Ayer's Rock, sacred ground to Australian aboriginal people, ground that they have repeatedly made clear should be for their access only. You opine that you would visit this very place that they don't want you to visit "in the presence of an aboriginal and listen to what he or she has to say".
If only you had bothered to read the thread you would know what the aboriginal people have to say. They say "stay away from our sacred land".
From where do you think you will obtain this aboriginal person who you imagine will accompany you to Ayer's Rock?
How do you propose to approach them to ask them about their feelings? Something like "Hi there! Sorry about the genocide, land theft, boarding schools, rapes and other horrific abuses, but would you mind terribly if I just took a stroll around on your sacred land?"
When they say that they do not want people who are not aboriginal to visit Ayer's Rock you seem to imagine that they mean everyone except for you.
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I wonder how they would reply if somebody did a strip show in a church! Probably get way more media attention and whoever did it would certainly be charged. Lovely double standard we have here.
It makes me sick that people would do things like this, and she even admitted to knowing that the site was sacred.
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A man has to have dreams nemesis!
Some dreams never come true.
If a aboriginal would say to me:"i'd not have you go there" i would listen.
That is what i mean by listening too!
You accuse me of seeing people as merely actors.... and so on.
It kind of strikes me as you blame me for what you are doing yourself now.
I'm merely a dumb white-guy, who will never understand you....
What happened to mutually understanding?
I'm trying to understand your points of view and are merely asking your opinion on it.
Not your condemnation!
If it is the purpose of this board to shun the white-guy, then say so and i will be on my way.
It will however not help you in getting the understanding you seem to seek.
Sjeesh.... what a guy has to do, to get a little respect over here!
Come on everybody, let's bash the white-guy.
That is how i feel right now.
Is that what you want?
I really don't think so.
Please don't do to others what has been done to you?
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Wayne,
You need to check out nemesis' intro thread.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2521.0
For the record, I'm an old white lady from Pennsylvania and I agree with her.
Taraverti
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A man has to have dreams nemesis!
but not at the expense of others.. then it is called a nightmare..
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My reply still stands, it doesn't matter to me, who made the remark, the remark made me feel the way i do.
I hear a lot of.... you have to read this, or like you haven't read this correctly.....
I can say the same of already some people on this board.
I'm convinced we all try to read things the way they are intended, so please don't lower yourself to the point, in wich you attack somebody on not (yet) understanding.
Instead try and explain, without accusing.
When i have to keep on defending myself...... it will go from bad to worse....
That is not what i want.
I invite you to read my other posts also and i mean really read, not singling out a small part of my text.
One of the members here has done so already and he/she got a reply from me in wich i answered all the questions to the best of my ability.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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but not at the expense of others.. then it is called a nightmare..
Thats a really good explaination!
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@critter,
I agree, i hope you see how i mean things.
It is not, that every dream has to come true.... i'd rather not, then there would be no dreams left.
What one's dream is, can be an other's nightmare.
This goes both ways, so mutual understanding is key here.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Wayne I don't think Taraverti was trying to attack you or put you on the defensive. I think she was attempting to show you the perspective and position on sensitive issues of another individual who is a member of the dominant culture.
And just a note. Sometimes life comes along with what my grammy referred to as 'broom teachings'. These teaching oppertunities may be difficult and sometimes emotionally hard to accept, but they are for our benefit, whether to keep us safe, to keep others safe, to smarten us up when we need a wake up call etc.
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@critter,
I agree, i hope you see how i mean things.
It is not, that every dream has to come true.... i'd rather not, then there would be no dreams left.
What one's dream is, can be an other's nightmare.
This goes both ways, so mutual understanding is key here.
Many blessings,
Wayne
wayne, i do see how you see things because i am a white person who
lives in a culture that sees things how you see. but i choose to look
the other way because it is better for me, and i believe, for all.
it is better to remove such dreams from your mind.. and find dream
that is not a nightmare for another. as buddhists says, 'to benefit all
sentient beings'.. not just the few privileged..
i believe you are not "trying" to trample.. and yet you trample..
sometimes it is good to move your eyes to look out at the world from
another person's face. see what they see.. and never be afraid to
change your views..even if that takes you far from your comfort zone
and from where you've learned to be.
if your dream is another person's nightmare.. then it is not so good
a dream to have.. even if it is one that you know will never come true.
by dreaming of it.. you are supporting it..
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I understand critter,
Yes a dream could be .... supportive of some trampling.
I still would want to talk about it with an aboriginal though. ;)
Just to understand, i'm very eager to learn about people in general.
I've been at the "hunnebedden" here in the Netherlands, wich are ancient buriel-grounds.
I felt the spirits there, so i was wondering about other places in our world, how they would feel.
I plan to visit sites, wich are strong like that, but i do not want to upset in anyway the indiginous people by doing so.
This is ofcourse not always possible, so i have a choice.... follow my own dream, or.... respect the culture and beliefs of the people the land is holy to.
The choice is obvious to me..... it will always be the latter.
If one can set aside his/her dreams for the benefit of other(s), then you teach others to do the same.
Sort of leading by example. ;)
Imagine.... i would have the money to go to down-under.
There's this tourguide who is selling the Uluru-tour.
I would ask him if there is a native guide, if so i would want to talk to him and ask him about the holiness of the place.
I would bet that he would say he'd rather have no whities around uluru, then i would not go.
Stating, that i respect the customs out loud, so i would make other tourists uneasy to go.
But..... it will remain a dream.
So yes, a dream can be supporting of trampling.
I choose to use my dream(s) to benefit the good of the many.
Thanks again critter!
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Wayne
I have read all you posts here
I do not believe that you are being malicious or that you intend to offend people, yet your posts are, for the most part, offensive. Not because they display hatred or malice, but because they clearly demonstrate your inherent sense of your own goodness and correctness at the same time that your words show that you have a lot to learn about the very things you claim to know so much about.
You do not yet seem to possess the humility necessary to listen to others or to bother to read about the views, values and opinions of native people before posting here.
If you had bothered to read instead or write and listen instead of talk, and you had actually thought about the issues, then you would not have written what you did.
Just for example
You say this
Imagine.... i would have the money to go to down-under.
There's this tourguide who is selling the Uluru-tour.
I would ask him if there is a native guide, if so i would want to talk to him and ask him about the holiness of the place.
I would bet that he would say he'd rather have no whities around uluru, then i would not go.
Stating, that i respect the customs out loud, so i would make other tourists uneasy to go.
While, from what you say, your heart seems to be in the right place (a very important thing), if you had spent even a little while reading the boards here you would know that asking tour guides about whether or not there is a native guide present would probably count for nothing because it is very common for tour guides to employ actors to play the roles of native guides.
You could easily end up being "given permission" to walk on sacred ground / sell ceremony / some other thing by someone pretending to be native. It happens all the time, as you would know if you were familiar with the issues.
I understand that it must feel difficult for you to take these criticisms on board, and I am not saying what I am saying just to attack you.
When you come to a forum like this one, that is owned by native people, you could think of it as though you are a guest in someone else's house.
You need to be very considerate and respectful in how you behave.
You should ask yourself whether entering the house and making all kinds of proclamations about your own perceived expertise is the right thing to do, or perhaps whether it is better to be humble and to listen, to learn and try to be helpful.
If you have a powerful wish to try to connect with native people, maybe in some way to give something back or make amends for the many years of genocide and colonialism, perhaps it might be better to humbly try to learn what kind of gifts and gestures might be appreciated rather than to offer your opinions as though they were gifts of great value.
There is an excellent thread here that might be a good place for you to start to learn
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2365.0
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Read the mentioned post........... still learning ;)
Thanks.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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not only that nemesis.. but also as though the aboriginal is part of a souvenir shop or something. i mean, when i read: I would ask him if there is a native guide, if so i would want to talk to him and ask him about the holiness of the place.
i felt like there's a souvenir shop near by and tourist wants to go get a trinket. that's how offensive it is i found his words here to be.
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not only that nemesis.. but also as though the aboriginal is part of a souvenir shop or something. i mean, when i read: I would ask him if there is a native guide, if so i would want to talk to him and ask him about the holiness of the place.
i felt like there's a souvenir shop near by and tourist wants to go get a trinket. that's how offensive it is i found his words here to be.
I hear you critter and I know exactly what you mean.
I was referring to this in a earlier post when I said that Wayne seems to imagine that native people exist only as actors in the theatre of his imagination or aspirations, or something.
I think that, for many white people (possibly for all people) it is extremely easy to project our own fantasies onto others and to see them as symbols of our own desires rather than as people with rights and their own lives to lead.
Let's face it this tendency is central to racism, colonialism and probably lots of other isms too. It is probably part of the human condition, but something that manifests itself most obviously around issues of racism and white privilege.
I say this as a white person who does not consider myself immune to this tendency, just as someone who is on guard for it in myself.
Having said that, at least Wayne has read the thread I suggested and hopefully he will learn to listen more and talk less.
I was extremely stupid and insensitive when I was young and I still have my moments now and I think that the best that any of us can do it to try to examine our prejudices and privileges and try to know ourselves and not to harm others.
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i agree nemesis.. i'm on guard as well for the nuances of 'white privilege' in my own
actions and thoughts.. along with other oddities of being human that causes distress.
live and learn..
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I thank all of you who've responded to Mosher for your wise comments here. Nemesis, you hit the nail on the head regarding Wayne Mosher (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2914.0)'s objectification of people of color. We saw this type of racism again in the other thread (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2914.0) regarding the photograph of the Indigenous man on Mosher's social networking page. I feel it was also kneejerk racism (and a sign he hadn't read much of anything here) for him to accuse us of just hating white people. Yup, just hatin' on whitey... No whites allowed here. < / sarcasm >
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Wayne - I´m European, just like you.
I can understand the wish to go to sacred places, whatever cultures they belong to, because those places are beautiful.
And some of them are open to anyone, some of them are closed - not always with a fence....
To avoid tourguide-actors and "pay-me-and-you-can-go-there!" people, there is a better way....
Work in and with Native communities.
Raise money, help elders and children.
Spread information among non-Natives about the wrongdoings, the exploitation, the abuse
Get involved in Native American/Australian political issues where you can make a difference
And then, after ten years or so, maybe - maybeeeee - a genuine, traditional Native person one day will say: "I´ll show you a special place" and take you there.
It will not be "payment for your work"
And it is nothing you ever can expect - because if your pretend to give help in order to achieve something else, the traditionalists will see through you faster than lightening! Believe me...!
So it pretty much goes back to what everyone in here have already said, make a change in your heart and mind, talk less, listen to genuine traditionalist and act in silence. And then after some years you will probably find that wishing to gain information about sacred ceremonies and visiting sites seem far less important. And then you´ll know you´re on the right track.
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http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1161.0
IMO i think thats why the Elders in kkkanada reacted so vehemently to their first exposure to the false medicine wheel teachings, they saw it as racist, this view of the 4 colours of man, endgenders discrimination in its adherents, it compartmentalizes the many many colours of humankind, as well as perverts true L'nu awareness.
the fact is this medicine wheel is a false ideology, invented by the whites, imposed on our People as another tool of colonialization, and unfort worked. Recently I had my well-being threatened for blogging in Mi'kmaw country on the dangers of the medicine wheel, thats wat andrea was alluding to:
..."The sad irony is that anyone who now voices objections to the medicine wheel as tradition is generally condemned for "messing" with tradition."...
i saw my fellow L'nu come back from conferences and start giving medicine wheel workshops (for a fee), i saw a group of L'nu Traditionalists, create a secret Medicine Wheel Group, devoted to studying these teachings, which lead to a clique forming, which was very narrow minded in its acceptance of others.
the medicine wheel trains its adherents to fracture the Spirituality and Ideology of many of the Aboriginal People in the western hemisphere, imposing a sinister sense of entitlement leaving its adherents convinced they have a right to do this.
which leaves people like wayne, thinking they are entitled to hold Sweats, for what they call purification, and personal well-being. and most tragically their idea of what a Sweat is the most vile form of corruption.
i cannot speak about the other Nations, but i am humbled to share that i have been invited to Lakota, Cree, Wampanoag, Maliseet and Mi'kmaq Sweats. But i have never heard one Sweat Lodge Conductor mention purification and personal well-being. the simple fact that these non-natives cannot assimilate is that we Suffer for the Good Of The People! we do not Sweat for ourselves, in fact there is an unspoken inhibition to even not Pray for yourself in the Lodge, we Pray for our Families, the People, the Communities, our Leaders, the other Nations, to our Ancestors, for the well-being of the creatures that inhabit the forest and waterways and the Medicines, i cant remember the last time i heard someone pray for themself a regular Lodge. if there are issues in your life, and you need help the protocol is to approach the Conductor and ask for a Lodge to be done in your honour to help following certain protocols, then we get together and pray with and for that person.
For the Mi'kmaq People, the Lodge was given to us by our messiah Kluskap. He constructed the first Lodge, to Honour His Grandmother, Nukimijinen, (you can find the Mi'kmaq Creation Story all over the Net, its one of the few times a member of the Mi'kmaq Grand Council shared their ancient knowledge on the internet). this awareness has nothing to do with wayne and his followers. i hope he cancels his sweat, and any charges he incurs is a small price to pay for the pearl of awareness his journey in our Forum has given him.