Author Topic: Re: Discussion with Moma P  (Read 48263 times)

Offline Found

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2008, 06:21:39 pm »
I have spent the last year or so reading through all these threads. I simply made a comment. The thing I have seen here is this petty quarreling when there is so much good that has been done.

I do not criticize another's opinion and I ask the same repsect from you.

Offline MikePutfus

  • Posts: 25
Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2008, 07:55:12 pm »
Where I come from Federica it's an insult to ask information like this from a person. Yet it is something we do when we introduce our self's. I think it's to see if we are related in some way. Out side our cycle we give little information out because it's often stolen and used. So I limit that inforation like I'm sure you do as well.

Offline MikePutfus

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2008, 08:01:21 pm »
oh and a really silly question here for you Moma,

How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?...maybe they supply inmates with all singing,all dancing laptops these days huh?..sarcasism off! ::)

 

For your information they have computers they are allowed to use. I have emailed Leonard Peltier and written to him before. As well as others that are n jail or prison.

Offline MikePutfus

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2008, 08:10:17 pm »
You got me - I'm with the PBCA (pioneer bone collecters assc)  - we dig up pioneer finger bones and make them into chokers to sell at traditional pow-wows.  My outfit specializes on them pioneers that went West during the gold rush - some fell off wagons and mules ran over them, others the Indians  shot for tresspassing, others croaked from disease, it don't matter, they are a hot item and militants buy them right up, at a fair price of course. We're coming soon with a line of pioneer shin bones to be used for paper weights and conversation pieces for them upscale folks in high rise  office buildings still wearing their hair long. Like I said when I introduced myself, I'm nothing but a man and Veteran who believes in fair treatment of all people. You don't impress me Frederica as the type of woman who would be good with a pick and shovel, so please don't PM me for any details on my outfit. Thankyou. Look for me soon at one of them brush arbor pow-wows where they ain't speaking much English - you can't miss my booth.

I think you will find very few pot hunters on this board Kevin, and those that show up at our Gatherings are run off or arrested.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2008, 11:16:21 pm »
I hope my post gets posted. It seems to be a fine thing to go after frauds, and I applaud the valid research many of you have done and continue to do so. But it is another to go after each other. It is like hunting for food. It is fine to go hunt something other than yourself but when you start to eat yourself because you are hungry there is definitely a problem.

Disagreements happen even when people have a lot in common , and as long as people do their best to tell the truth , and be polite, I think thats OK. Some of the issues discussed here are really complex and can go to the heart of how peoples define their idenitiy. Even if the discussions can get on the passionate side, it's probably good that they happen, and that we force each other to consider things from a different angle.

Exploitation and fraud create problems no matter if the person doing this is a friend or stranger, and i don't agree that these problems should only be addressed if we don't like the person creating them. That approach would not be fair. I also don't think we have to disagree with everything someone is doing, before anything can be said about something specific someone is doing. Using an analogy, it's like if someone was active in their community opposing violence against women, that  wouldn't mean it's OK if this same person beats their dog. I also don't think that just because someone denounces people who sell ceremonies that gives them a right to exploit another aspect of the culture or some watered down aspect of their own heritage.

So yes sometimes stuff comes up and people who are members of NAFPS and doing good things in some areas do get questioned and other NAFPS members may strongly disagree with what they are doing. Calling that "going after our own" sounds very melodramatic. I honestly have never seen any member of NAFPS eat another human being . But it does sound like a cause for concern when said in that way.  :)

Personally i don't mind if people want to disagree with something i say... As long as it is something I actually said...

From a thread you posted in earlier today...
 Henry Niese
« Reply #8   
found
Quote
(begins...)  it did not seem polite to ask directly when I was guest.

Asking is necessary if we are going to avoid supporting frauds, and as long as people support them, there will be people tempted to take advantage. If someone is trustworthy they will understand why you are asking and shouldn't feel offended. If they are offended, IMO that in itself is a BIG red flag.

MikePutfus
Quote
Where I come from Federica it's an insult to ask information like this from a person. Yet it is something we do when we introduce our self's
.

Hi Mike... I guess relationships on the internet is kind of different than real life and it can be hard to find a balance between maintaining a degree of personal privacy or anonymousness, and when that turns into making claims that can't be verified that involve the public trust.  If we all knew each other in a real life Native community , our community would inform us if what someone was claiming was untrue.  On line, or in the New Age market place, direct questions are often necessary if people don't want to support people making fraudulent claims ....  As you can see people here don't always agree on where that balance is, or how best to go about this.

But in my opinion all discussion is good ...

Offline MikePutfus

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2008, 04:32:39 am »

Hi Mike... I guess relationships on the internet is kind of different than real life and it can be hard to find a balance between maintaining a degree of personal privacy or anonymousness, and when that turns into making claims that can't be verified that involve the public trust.  If we all knew each other in a real life Native community , our community would inform us if what someone was claiming was untrue.  On line, or in the New Age market place, direct questions are often necessary if people don't want to support people making fraudulent claims ....  As you can see people here don't always agree on where that balance is, or how best to go about this.

But in my opinion all discussion is good ...
[/quote]

I went into a shop that said Native American Arts in Saint Petersburg, Fl.. I asked the clerk if the owner was around after she told me of his background. He claimed he was White Mountian like my self. As he wasn't there, and I left a short message for him Using my Tribal name saying I would be asking a friend (Dallas) who happened to be the Chairman of our Tribe at the time if he knew of him. I wish I could remember the guys name now, but I don't. My daughter and I went back the next weekend, and the shop was empty. I don't know if it comes with age or just meeting so many fakes, but at times a little feeling comes over you that something just isn't right. Talking to someone on line, and face to face tends to be the same for me. Yes that does mean I have been taken in by some, but I feel it's worth it in the long run.

Offline Kevin

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2008, 03:30:26 pm »
Mr. Putfus, I assure you me and my outfit are not "pot hunters" - we simply believe in cultural equity. One man's artifact is another man's item of apparel as my old Granny used to say. The designated PR person of my crew has come up with an idea to target Indians attending colleges throughout the land with some jewerly I doubt they could pass by, using a Green theme for the main sales pitch. We are planning to have some high-end brochures printed. The merchandise pics are state of the art, high tech stuff. We are hashing out the wording then we'll hit the streets, so to speak.

I've put forth this sales pitch to put on the brochure"
" Is that lovely lady you are so interested in not impressed with your new car? Isn't she smiling at you at all? Try wowing her with one of our chokers: certified pre-1700 Pilgrim finger bones, polished to a high gloss with sterling silver spacers, strung on organically raised groundhog gut string. Strut right up to her and tell her in a manly tone, "I've gone green, baby" and tap that stunning choker around your neck with your finger. She'll be in your arms on the second date or your money back. "

Whataya' think??

Offline NDN_Outlaw

  • Posts: 104
Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2009, 06:59:07 pm »
It's fair ball to ask what NDN Nation someone is from. From my experience it's usually the second question NDN people ask after meeting each other. Example: What is your name? Answer Buffalo Bob. Question: Are you related to the Bobs from Khakawistahow or Pasqua.? and/ or Do you know old Mary Bob? Does she still go to Bingo at her age? and so on. It's a ritual greeting. In this instance it could also be a wedge attack. Looking for an opening an opportunity to attack someone. For my part Porcupine is alright with me. She's sharp as a quill and has the cultural moxie to munch a bunch of frauds anywhere any time.

Offline bls926

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2009, 03:43:02 am »
Re-reading this thread sure brought back memories. Crazyeagle (Linda Lou Flewin), Zoi Lightfoot, Tsisqua (real name unknown), and wredgranny (Sheila Williams) . . . All attacking Moma because she wouldn't say what Nation she's from. Moma said something to the effect that what would it prove if she named a Nation, to give herself credibility, and didn't give any information that would substantiate it? Nothing would be gained from this. Nothing would be proven. And what about these four women who were causing such a ruckus? Linda Lou claims to be a Mi'kmaq Scoop Kid. It's been shown that she isn't Mi'kmaq or a Scoop Kid. Zoi Lightfoot claims to be Anishnabe from Red Lake. She isn't enrolled with Red Lake or any other Ojibwe reservation. Tsisqua claims to be Keetoowah. Correspondence with the UKB proved that's a lie. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder. She's a 50 year-old blonde. These women may have Indian ancestors, but none are enrolled. No Nation claims any of them.

For more about these women and how they were exposed, refer to:

Welcome & News
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

Member Introductions
Tsisqua

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=838

Etcetera
WRedGranny Spreading Lies on Other Websites

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1751.0
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 03:47:49 am by bls926 »

TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2009, 11:34:54 am »
Re-reading this thread sure brought back memories. Crazyeagle (Linda Lou Flewin), Zoi Lightfoot, Tsisqua (real name unknown), and wredgranny (Sheila Williams) . . . All attacking Moma because she wouldn't say what Nation she's from. Moma said something to the effect that what would it prove if she named a Nation, to give herself credibility, and didn't give any information that would substantiate it? Nothing would be gained from this. Nothing would be proven. And what about these four women who were causing such a ruckus? Linda Lou claims to be a Mi'kmaq Scoop Kid. It's been shown that she isn't Mi'kmaq or a Scoop Kid. Zoi Lightfoot claims to be Anishnabe from Red Lake. She isn't enrolled with Red Lake or any other Ojibwe reservation. Tsisqua claims to be Keetoowah. Correspondence with the UKB proved that's a lie. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder. She's a 50 year-old blonde. These women may have Indian ancestors, but none are enrolled. No Nation claims any of them.

For more about these women and how they were exposed, refer to:

Welcome & News
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

Member Introductions
Tsisqua

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=838

Etcetera
WRedGranny Spreading Lies on Other Websites

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1751.0

Now Now bls... Not all NDN's are enrolled, and not all NDN's fit the "standard" look of NDN-ness. But I have to agree with you. What difference does it make whether you "claim" a nation or not, it does not nor will it "legitimize" you. I for one have some blonde in my hair.......OK so my hair looks like a skunk on crack, dark brown, blonde { gray actually } a lot of very light brown. And that's because I thought Mizz Clairol was mah friend! MaMa P has NOTHING to prove to anyone. Unless she is sitting here defending the actions of the ones that we are all here trying to stop, and I haven't seen that happen yet. So, anyone can claim anything but it does not necessarily make it so. Not to create drama here but I have to ask. Are you saying that If your NOT enrolled, that it makes you "less" NDN??? Sheila Williams claimed to be a Cherokee Elder??? Then the statement I have for that is........"Why the hell is she on the internet doing everything she can to prove to people sitting behind a monitor that she's an NDN?"  I am what I am, enrolled or not, and I don't have anything to prove to anyone because the only person it matters to, already knows the truth. I don't sit in judgement of anyone because that is not my job, Let them claim whatever they like......The truth ALWAYS reveals itself.

Offline bls926

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2009, 12:37:33 pm »
No, being enrolled doesn't make you more Indian; neither does the fact that you're blonde rule out the possibility that you are. The point I was trying to make was that these four women made claims about themselves that were proven false. Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou Flewin have Treaty House, supposedly an American Indian Embassy in London. Although only a Myspace and Yahoo Group, they raise money under false pretences. They're a couple of pretendians with a fake embassy. Tsisqua, who stated over and over that she's enrolled Keetoowah, runs Native American Unity, a website trying to influence people's perception of Indians. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder with psychic powers who writes poetry.

Moma has never claimed to be anything. She hasn't set herself up with an organization that tries to influence the way people think. She doesn't try to raise money. She isn't writing and publishing works as an American Indian.

Therein lies the difference.

If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 01:19:36 pm by bls926 »

TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2009, 02:43:36 pm »
No, being enrolled doesn't make you more Indian; neither does the fact that you're blonde rule out the possibility that you are. The point I was trying to make was that these four women made claims about themselves that were proven false. Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou Flewin have Treaty House, supposedly an American Indian Embassy in London. Although only a Myspace and Yahoo Group, they raise money under false pretences. They're a couple of pretendians with a fake embassy. Tsisqua, who stated over and over that she's enrolled Keetoowah, runs Native American Unity, a website trying to influence people's perception of Indians. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder with psychic powers who writes poetry.

Moma has never claimed to be anything. She hasn't set herself up with an organization that tries to influence the way people think. She doesn't try to raise money. She isn't writing and publishing works as an American Indian.

Therein lies the difference.

If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.


LOL You don't have to convince Me.......I agree with You!! ;D

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2009, 03:52:14 pm »
Hi NDN Outlaw . Thanks for the supportive words ...

NDN Outlaw
Quote
It's fair ball to ask what NDN Nation someone is from. From my experience it's usually the second question NDN people ask after meeting each other. Example: What is your name? Answer Buffalo Bob. Question: Are you related to the Bobs from Khakawistahow or Pasqua.? and/ or Do you know old Mary Bob? Does she still go to Bingo at her age? and so on. It's a ritual greeting.

That would be a problem if I was also trying to remain anonymous - especially if I had a good reason for doing so.

It's not that I wouldn't be happy to introduce myself , and I would even enjoy doing this , it's just if I am vague and only give partial information , it would be easy for people to misread that. If I provide enough information to avoid misrepresnting myself, there would be enough information for people who know me to identify me.  So it seems either I am willing to tell all, or it's better to just keep my mouth entirely shut . ( For me this is not easy, believe me )

Bonnie , thanks for sticking up for me , yet again - though this time it seems like NDN Outlaw was just making a reasonable comment - probably without having read through all the history .... ( enough to give anyone a major headache)
 
bls926
Quote
If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.

I guess I am trying to influence people. But I try to rely on verifiable facts and common sense reasoning . I try to avoid doing this by using information that can't be verified, as would be the case if I often mentioned my expertise based on my traditional Cherokee background as the reason people should allow me to influence them. ( I don't have a traditional Cherokee background , this is just an example of something a lot of people seem to claim )

If i did this while not providing any way to verify if my claims of expertise and authority were real , that would be wrong. When people post here and do that it always bothers me as people who turn out to not be who they claim to be posing as experts can't be good for our efforts here.

I hope just the fact I have posted so much doesn't give people the impression I am any kind of authority.

As I have said in other threads I have seen people getting hurt on both sides of these issues and as I have some understanding of both sides I hope to influence people in ways that help resolve this . However my own expertise is probably more in the area of having made a lot of mistakes and having a big mouth.

It is important to me not to misrepresent myself.   

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2009, 04:51:48 pm »
Tansi;

As I have participated in this discussion, I feel that it is important to note that, in my own opinion, I will not support any individual, although I do value much of the research that has been undertaken, in order to expose the damage that frauds continue to do to many people, using our people as tools in their deception.  I have too often seen where people establish a form of "internet" credibility and when new facts arise that discredit the individuals we find that there is a hidden agenda to the former input.

That being said, I must also state that I am very happy to see that the more Respectful style that this individual is now using is much better than the confrontational process that we were formerly involved in.  I look forward to continuing to read, with interest, the internet research abilities of M. Porcupine!

Ric

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2009, 07:13:53 pm »
Ric
Quote
As I have participated in this discussion, I feel that it is important to note that, in my own opinion, I will not support any individual, although I do value much of the research that has been undertaken, in order to expose the damage that frauds continue to do to many people, using our people as tools in their deception.

Hi Ric
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The way it is worded is a bit hard to follow - but maybe you mean you don't like to let personal loyalties ( supporting individuals) get in the way of your stance on an issue.? If this is what you mean I am inclined to agree with you. I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with pretty much everyone who posts here, and a lot of the fights that happen seem to be people wanting to defend their friends , even if what their friend is doing deserves questioning.

Ric
Quote
I am very happy to see that the more Respectful style that this individual is now using is much better than the confrontational process that we were formerly involved in

I guess thats how you see it Ric. But as I already said, suggesting I have been disrespectful because i don't support people who sell sweetgrass also seems disrespectful.

We both have already expressed the basics of our disagreements and people can find links to most of this, and our different points of view , in this thread , so I don't see any point in going over it again. 

We see this differently. It seems better to try and cooperate on the areas where we agree than to continue arguing about this. 

I'm glad you appreciate my research skills...

Thanks for acknowledging that.

Heh... You still don't sound like you like me much, but thats OK.   ;D