Author Topic: Re: Discussion with Moma P  (Read 54713 times)

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2008, 01:04:11 pm »
Tsisqua
Quote
Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting (Which I incidently found while googling my nick name out of curiosity one day)...

Tsisqua, the first post I recall you making is here 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0

See the date

 Tribal America
« on: December 22, 2007, 04:08:58 pm

The first question in this inquiry "Who is Tsisqua is dated ;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/355

Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 pm

How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 and write to Frederica many weeks BEFORE you even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who you are , once you saw the above posting   when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

If this is a misunderstanding I'm sorry , but considering the information that is there , and that you corrected some other speculation but never said it was incorrect and considering that Frederica who posted that, then went on to say you are who you say you are, all these factors , if this is a mistake on my part , would make this an honest one.

A couple other thoughts occur to me and one is that I don't think it is correct to reffer to individuals of Native descent as "Nations". It sounds extremely pompuous.


This whole idea of people claiming their Nation if they aren't enrolled in a federally recognized tribe and their Nation doesn't claim them seems really obnoxious and would often cause tribes to feel hostile towards the people making these claims. I am always suprised when people make claims or do things which would cause them to become alienated from the very People they want to claim ....  Even if sme people a Nation claim someone if other people don't why risk making people upset and making claims tha might become a divisive ifactor i the community?
Thanks BLS and Matt and Al and others for your words and efforts to keep this communication in balance . I don't mean to drag anyone else into this. I do have a tendancy to put people on the spot and I relize this and I guess some hostility is to be expected.  I  have a working crap dector and i do have well considered reasons for what I do .

One reason is , this board would loose all it's credibility and the Elders supported here could also be discredited if NAFPS, if  members are accusing people of being frauds but defending and protecting friends who do the same thing. Which is why I can be so adamant about Keeping It Clean. 

 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 01:22:32 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Tsisqua

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2008, 01:09:52 pm »
Quote
Tsisqua, the first post I recall you making is here 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0

See the date

 Tribal America
« on: December 22, 2007, 04:08:58 pm

The first question in this inquiry "Who is Tsisqua is dated ;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/355

Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 pm

How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 "before you joined NAFPS " when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

And now please see....

Quote
Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting

YAHOO GROUP....do you see where it says that? Yes...so do I...I did not state "Before I joined the NAFPS Forum...but the Yahoo Group. Thank you.

Added note;

Since you have edited your posting at an attempt to still discredit me I will respond.


Quote
How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 and write to Frederica many weeks BEFORE you even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who you are , once you saw the above posting   when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

Again...I will go through this and make it as easy as possible for those who do not understand.

One day...I googled the name 'Tsisqua' and came across the posting in NAFPS yahoo group entitled 'Who is Tsisqua'.

I read the NAFPS yahoo group forum...which had been posted AFTER my first posting regarding Tribal America which was posted HERE on the NAFPS Forum.

I sent an email to Frederica...and received a response....of which I am sure Frederica can confirm if need be....although I have the emails also.

Many weeks later....I joined the NAFPS Yahoo group, I am sure admin can give you the correct date, time etc.

I posted on the thread 'Who is Tsisqua' on March 10th at 7.32am 2008 (Which I am almost 100% certain was my first posting on the day I joined the NAFPS yahoo group)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/388

Now I will search through my emails to locate the exact date of my email to Frederica...which as I said...was many weeks before...and I shall post this for your viewing pleasure....unless of course Frederica can confirm the date the email was sent.

Have we done now? Or is there something else you'd like to throw at me?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 01:52:52 pm by Tsisqua »
There are no leaders in Unity

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2008, 01:24:55 pm »
opps
I edited my post without seeing your reply ... I wasn't meaning to do that after you replied... 

Offline zoi lightfoot

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2008, 01:41:12 pm »
Ok Moma you have determined /implied that I am not trustworthy enough to PM,so here we go.
Firstly the nature of my exact relationship or connection to Leonard Peltier is something I HAVE NEVER personaly stated in public and it would be a very wise person to actualy check I physicaly made a comment before they go accussing me of anything.
Second as you seem to have skipped that in your rush to chop and paste endless out of context quotes and attempts to give gravitas to your conclusions without merit,right or basis.YES I AM LEGALLY QUALIFIED.was that clear enough for you?
Yes writing to Leonard Peltier would involve telling him who you are (your version at least)Or do you expect him to just accept the anon ramblings and accusations against someone he knows well?Or are you worried he will be up front and send your letter to me for comment and then I will know who you say you are?
Your reputation for challanging Indian members of the Napfs site and non indians too it sadly has to be said,preceeds you and sadly Napfs reputation and what it attempts to do.
You state that everyone should not be above question,fine,who are you and what qualifies you to determine who is or is not Indian?You are as open to questioning from Indian peoples as you subject them to.Last time I looked our nations had not authorized one moma porcupine to determine this for them.You are straying and taking Napfs into dangerous territory mah ee quay.Hunting frauds and presenting your evidences to the relative Nations is one thing,presuming to question legitimate members of the Indian Nations in the offensive and extreemly volitile manner you do is acting like some self appointed policeman for the indian nations.That is not your business or concern to involve yourself in.
Lastly,Larry Nicholes has documentation I have never felt the need or concern to question,he is Indian,and therefore a member of the International Intertribal community don't go reading non existant personal assumptions into the fact INDIAN peoples out here have determined that I am their legal director and will be until they replace me with someone younger or better for the job.Unless you prove to me he is not Indian then that status and the status of IIC members is not your place to question.
as an afterthought,in writing to Leonard maybe you should ask him which legally qualified person protects his copyright out here for him.

Offline zoi lightfoot

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2008, 01:48:35 pm »
Ps Granny more than happy for you to raise this with Gwarth ee Lass

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2008, 02:10:44 pm »
Like BLS pointed out, claiming someone has no right to speak in here, or speak on the subject of exploiters, or on groups claiming to be tribes, if they are not NDN is ridiculous. Ironically it's something that exploiters themselves frequently use to shout down critics.

Would that mean only someone Black could say slavery is wrong? That only someone Jewish could say Hitler was evil? Nonsense.

Offline crazyeagle

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 02:19:44 pm »
With respect Al, I dont think anyone was saying that at all, unless you just wanted to reiterate a point BLS said.


frederica

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 02:44:39 pm »
I think everyone makes mistakes, at least I do. And it's a good thing to have these pointed out, as you can learn from them.  But when we start the badgering and just decide to declare waron ourselves, it makes us look weak. We have so many Wolves, Hawks, Davy Crocketts on this forum, I have no idea who they are. Only if they tell me. Some post, some do not. The NAFPS Forum introduction states it just wants people who are interested in helping. Not interested in who they are.  So, I not sure why we are fighting about this when no one knows to begin with. The personal stuff is not worth the time or effort. Everyone has good points and bad. Utilize the good. The rest is so distracting.

Offline crazyeagle

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 02:57:58 pm »
Agree with you Frederica but when you have Moma P demanding intros and information about members whether they be of the nations or not and a lot of it is personal or leads to personal then the site cant have one rule for one and one rule for another. 

Offline zoi lightfoot

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2008, 03:00:29 pm »
Bingo! Frederica yes its distracting,disruptive and a royal pain in the ass to know you have a mountain of work to do and some one just will not stop harranging or answer their own question put right back to the,while we've all been at this how many of you have actualy got anything done?
Bls please tell me,what threats veiled or otherwise have been made by myself or any other directly towards Al,Al is not the topic here is he moma?Or are you telling me that even Al is above question?not that I have reason to so don't go jumping on that,but that was the problem in the first place was it not?

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2008, 06:50:15 pm »
Zoi Posted on: Today at 06:41:12 am
Quote
Firstly the nature of my exact relationship or connection to Leonard Peltier is something I HAVE NEVER personaly stated in public and it would be a very wise person to actualy check I physicaly made a comment before they go accussing me of anything.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.msg8363#msg8363
 
Quote
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK
« on: November 02, 2007, 07:52:14 am » 

Statement from Zoi Lightfoot – Director of Legal Affairs – Treaty House London UK

An Explanation of who Zoi Lightfoot is:

Zoi Lightfoot is enrolled Anishinaabe. She is Leonard Peltiers Cousin and she also is a lawyer who works for Native Rights in the UN and lives in London UK. Zoi Lightfoot is also recognized by the Women Title Holders of the Mohawk Nation.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I accused you of anything, to do with your relationship with Leonard Peltier. I was not even that skeptical of this claim. Lots of people have cousins ...

Though I am now pointing out your recent statement of never claiming a relationship with Leonard Peltier in public seems to be incorrect...

You sugested I write Mr Peltier... everything Isaid was simply a response to your suggestion.

But I do wonder how Mr Peltier would feel about you using his name as a seeming reference, when you are defending a group like the Blackwater Muskogee calling themself a tribe , and seemingly using his name and your connectin with him to discourage people from asking from obvious questions about their legitimacy . I doubt Leonard Peltier would imagine he has the right to recognize a group of distant descendants of the Muskogee , as a tribe.

In my opinion, that right belongs to the federally recognized Muskogee .

I think we disagree on enough real issues that it would be better if we could stick with those , and I think part of this disagreement is hearing things in our own minds that aren't actually being said. 

I just did this myself when I misunderstood Tsisqua when I didn't notice that she said the Yahoo NAFPS. I was muti tasking and distracted, and now I read through it again I see I misunderstood what was being said.

One thing I did notice is there seems to be a real person who is Theresa Courtney , and she was taking begining Cherokee language classes with the Red Nation society .

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Teresa+Courtney+%22+Cherokee&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

I think the page may have been removed but it still comes up in the google search...

I'm not sure how Frederica came to believe ths person is Tsisqua, and being bond by confidentiality she may not be able to say, but if Tsisqua would truely be endangered if she was identified, wrongly saying someone else is Tsisqua could endanger Theresa Courteney.

Maybe this should be corrected so no one is wrongly defamed or put in danger. 

I think there is already threads on the substantive issues where we disagree , and if people have something to say on any of the issues I am sure their input would be stimulating , But beyond this it seems fruitless to try and continue this debate...   As far as i can see most of this is just being used to distract from the real issues and legitmate questions .

anonymous posters
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=706.0

the role of non natives in confronting exploiters
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1105.0;all

Questionable tribes and Indian idenities
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

PODIAS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

Advice for critics of NAFPS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:16:07 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline crazyeagle

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2008, 07:22:53 pm »
Moma P..once again i have noted you have persistantly ignored answering my question and persist in pursuing others of the nations some of whom Ihave known for many years.

I persist...what nation are you from....and I warn you..I will not desist until I have an answer which many of the nations are waiting with abate breath for an answer. Personnaly I believe you are avoiding answering this simple straight forward question as this will then explain your attitude in attacking those of the nations. 

Oh..and you misunderstood - deliberately I beleive as you seem to be an intelligent person - my statement about being attacked.

I was referring to Al Carrol's statement which referenced to being attacked outside of the forum due to your personal activit9es which I have no interest in at all.

I want to know what Nation you are from and what gives you the right to attack others from the nations as you so clearly are doing on this forum.

Clearly if you were from the nations you would answer this simple question with a simple reply.....give you a clue..such and such a nation..there that didnt hurt did it!

What Nation Moma P....is easy! Surely you will not be so rude as to not answer..hmmmmmm?????????

     


Offline Tsisqua

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2008, 08:23:08 pm »
Regarding Theresa Courtney and the following:

Quote
I'm not sure how Frederica came to believe ths person is Tsisqua, and being bond by confidentiality she may not be able to say

I presume a google search was done of the name Tsisqua, and this woman is one of the people who uses the nick name? Perhaps Frederica could clear this up?

Also...my own email to Frederica explaining who I am...came after the postings of speculation on NAFPS forum...and then when I joined and posted my own words...of which I have already posted in my last entry...Frederica stated

Quote
Re: [nafps] Re: who is Tsisqua?


It was settled a while back, she is who she says she
is. We will still occasionaly check when it comes up,
you don't realise how many bears, redhawks, and
greywolves there are, till you start looking.
frederica

So just to clear this up once more...I am not Theresa Courtney, I have no information posted on the internet stating my real name, and I also believe a google search was carried out, and the findings were posted at that time...which I have no issue with. If you read the whole post....I clearly state that I am not this woman, nor any of the other women found through the google search...which puts no other person in any danger...but then...you only have my word for it eh...and generally...that means nothing here. But please, read the whole thread on the NAFPS Forum.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 08:40:42 pm by Tsisqua »
There are no leaders in Unity

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2008, 08:49:35 pm »
It's become pretty clear that we basically have several people, angry at any question being asked of them at all, who instead choose to badger, get angry, and get petty at one person who asked them those questions. Most of this is, in someone else's words, the most ridiculous thread that there has ever been at NAFPS.

I'm going to lock this thread for three days to give some of you time to both cool and off and frankly, learn to grow up. The angrier you get, the worse you wind up looking, no matter the rightness or wrongness of what you say. And if the same anger and pettiness continues after I unlock the thread, then you'll be required to take it entirely to private emails. We have lots of other good and important work that this is a petty distraction from.

And no, you can't sidetrack other threads with this either. Any posts that do will be deleted quickly.

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: Discussion with Moma P
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 03:42:13 pm »
Tansi;

As one who has been the subject of some of M Porcupine's attention, I feel that I should put my own opinion in this thread.

In my Culture, there is a way that we have of "talking around" something.  This is common and is very useful in different ways, such as describing a situation without having to ask for assistance, or in many other ways. 

In my attempts to describe modern realities of our Aboriginal peoples, in my region and of efforts to create ways of sustaining Traditional knowledge at the same time as living in a modern society, which includes the use of money, I was challenged, by M Porcupine in a very disrespectful manner.  Issues that this person brought up included this individual finding it laughable that Aboriginal people freely shared the knowledge of the use of corn and potatoes with non-natives, without benefitting from this.  Corn is used in ceremony, but is common in the marketplace, as well.  When She/He learned of our plans to use Blueberries, as one of our planned market products, MP supported this product, so I can only assume that He/She did not know that Blueberries are a very important component of many of our ceremonial feasts, in our region.

I also took personal offense in the manner in which He/She spoke of suicide, which has impacted all of our communities, including when my own brother committed suicide, in the next room to my mother.  As a neice of mine (my late brother's youngest daughter) also took her life at age 16, I have more than a "book learned" connection to this issue. 

In including references to the illegal drug trade in a discussion about legally selling products that come from our Traditional knowledge and local natural resources, I was offended by the attempt to bring this connection into what I had hoped would be a respectful dialogue.

When I stated that many of our Aboriginal politicians supported the development of a Non Timber Forest Product industry, She/He mentioned that many of our politicians are accused of corruption.  As I had previously stated that I held elected office, within the Metis Nation, Saskatchewan, and have a great deal of Respect for many Aboriginal politicians, both Metis and First Nation, I was personally offended by this suggestion.

This individual seems very good at finding information on the internet, but much of our Cultural ways are not posted there and must be learned by living in the Culture.  There is information about many things, on the internet, and caution should be used, especially since much of the information posted, is able to be used to support either side of any argument or debate.  I considered leaving this forum, but after discussing this individual with some of the forum's administration, chose to remain, in order to use this potentially valuable resource and contribute, when I can offer something, that affects me or that I have knowledge of. 

I continue to hope that Respect, the most important lesson of Life, as I was taught, can be a guiding principle of any debate held here. 

With Respect
Ric