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General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Bears Ghost on August 21, 2015, 08:04:34 am

Title: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 21, 2015, 08:04:34 am
Just wondering if anyone has info on a guy called Coony?  He is supposedly a sundance chief/intercessor and medicine person here in Washington state. I know people who dance there and have grave concerns about some of the behaviors at this event.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Epiphany on August 21, 2015, 02:43:43 pm
Looks like some folks have spelled his name "Kuni" also.

i'm in western Washington state - the Wynoochee area is on Olympic Peninsula, river etc. Do you have any more details on this person?
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 21, 2015, 04:53:49 pm
I know that he lives on the Skokomish rez and think he is Skok. I think he was/is also involved with the Smokehouse. Beyond that, I too have heard some things that don't sound good about the Wynoochee dance. I was told that there is a Lakota family that supports it, I don't know there names. But I also know that some of the "Ghosthorse" people have been going there for a few years. Some white people dance there. I had a friend who used to go to Coony's to sweat but she stopped because she says there was "too much drama." The man's wife was the source of much of the drama. and she is white.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Epiphany on August 21, 2015, 05:30:52 pm
Raymond "Cooney" Johns? http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930509&slug=1700369
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 21, 2015, 05:51:18 pm
I think that is him. Odd that he was referred to as "the pipe carrier" for the Skokomish people when the pipe was only introduced to them in the 70's maybe? I am sure that there were pipes but not used in this manner. The traditional beliefs there were the Smokehouse (also called "ceowin" sp?) and later the Shakers. (My husband's grandmother was Skok and I kow a little---very little--about this)

Oh, and I want to clarify that when I said that Cooney's wife was white I did not mean to infer that because she was white she was causing the drama. No, from what I hear, she causes the drama because she is trying to "out NDN" all the others and because she is on the controlling side. There is also lots of gossip and backstabbing. And I heard that from multiple sources. So that alone would keep ME from going to that sundance! If I was inclined to go to one.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Epiphany on August 21, 2015, 06:05:39 pm
Father's obituary http://www.obitsforlife.com/obituary/152777/Johns-Ray.php
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 22, 2015, 10:08:06 am
My main concerns are the stories I hear from observers/supporters about inappropriate language, protocols & contact between male & female dancers. I've heard tales of hula danci g women, Heyokas every year that dress as women. To my knowledge of Sundance, as both supporter and dancer my whole life, a heyoka only appears every other year & never dressed as a woman. They represent the Wakinyan or thunder beings. The traditional Sundance was taught to my family by the late Grandfather Fools Crow. Who stayed with my grandparents while teaching us his way. So, I feel that I have a fair grasp of the requirements for a proper ceremony. Great harm can come to people if the leaders aren't properly trained. How would a coastal native become an intercessor for a ceremony that doesn't belong to the coastal peoples?  He may be native, but is he legit as a medicine person or Sundance intercessor? Who trained him? Why are non-natives allowed to dance & possess eagle parts? Something doesn't add up.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 22, 2015, 10:34:24 am
I've run into his wife at a few events & definitely found her overbearing and not nearly as informed or humble as the wife of a medicine person or supposed Sundance chief should be. None of the people I've spoken with involved with the dance even know the true meaning of the symbolism of the dance. Apparently,  they've been led to believe that it's all about male sacrifice & praying for self gain, as well as prayer for others. My family has been taught that none of the Sundances west of the Rockies are safe or endorsed by the ceremonial leaders and should be avoided entirely.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 22, 2015, 04:17:06 pm
I tried to call one person who might be able to answer these questions, but she is working this weekend. She used to go to that sundance but quit because of some of the goings on. But she may know how he became an intercessor.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 23, 2015, 07:54:38 am
Thank you for your help.I've heard rumors of claims that he was trained by someone from my rez, Fort Peck. The only intercessor I ever knew in the last 20 years was Melvin Grey Bear & our Sundance leader was my uncle,  Floyd Youngman. They were taught by grandfathet Frank Fools Crow when I was a young boy , I'm 49 now. Neither of them alproved of the Wynoochee dance. I was told last year that a guy called Tall Tom was piercing dancers. I know him from our dance at Fort Peck & he was never given training or permission to lead or pierce dancers, at least not by my uncles that is.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 24, 2015, 08:25:46 pm
Well, I found out that he did not get trained by anyone at Ft. Peck. He was trained by a family in Kyle, SD. I will have the names later today or tomorrow. I also found out that the family that trained him wasn't involved for a few years but are now involved again. During the time they weren't involved is when some of the inappropriate behavior happened. And as to his wife, I guess many just ignore her or work around her. ;) People that know Cooney say he is a very humble man. Anyway, as soon as I get the names, I will share them.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 25, 2015, 09:54:17 am
Isn't Kyle where the Chips family comes from? There are a lot of questionable people in that area claiming medicine/ceremony training. I have more than a few relatives down that way who say it's a mess with phonies. Between the Ghosthorse people & non-ndns,  I don't see how much good could come from a ceremony that belongs elsewhere.  Maybe this thread can shed some light on the questionable details.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 25, 2015, 04:17:21 pm
Ok, so this is what I found out. Cooney had a personal vision to do the sundance at Wynoochee. He approached Kenny Farmer, Carol Apple and their families about being trained etc. He also had a meeting with Farmer, Apple, Dave Lopeman (Chair of the Squaxin Island tribe in who's area Wynoochee is) and Arvol Looking Horse. Now, that is as much as I know as I don't know any of the people involved.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 26, 2015, 07:36:13 am
Thank you for the info. I personally was told by Arvol Looking Horse that none of the dances west of the Rockies are sanctioned by the Intertribal council on ceremonies. All non-ndn participants were to be immediately asked to return all eagle parts and pipes to the ndn people and not participate in the actual ceremonies. They must leave the sacred circle and only be supporters for native dancers. I know that at legitimate dances across the plains non-ndns are not allowed to dance or tend sacred fires any longer. Seems I should contact the council on this matter for any further investigation.  Thank you all for your help.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 26, 2015, 04:29:23 pm
Please let us know what you find out.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Cetan on August 29, 2015, 01:43:42 am
The Chips are from Wamblee. Outside of Kyle is where Grandpa Fools Crow lived as well as Vernal Cross
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: earthw7 on August 29, 2015, 01:15:11 pm
both are dead now
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: earthw7 on August 29, 2015, 01:17:08 pm
all non-natives can not have a pipes and can not dance in a sun dance according to the Keeper of the pipe
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: AnnOminous on August 29, 2015, 08:46:11 pm
all non-natives can not have a pipes and can not dance in a sun dance according to the Keeper of the pipe

My response to this claim is here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4720.0
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: earthw7 on August 30, 2015, 03:42:52 am
when we are talking about the Chipp they are apart the Lakota
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 30, 2015, 05:49:36 pm
I have never heard of the Chipps family being involved with this sundance.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: ska on August 31, 2015, 01:57:29 am
Hi Debbie,

I think the confusion, and the inclusion of the Chipps, occurred when someone claimed that the Chipps were from around Kyle, as you mentioned the people who started the Wynoochee "sundance" were from around Kyle.

As Cetan pointed out, the Chipps are not from Kyle.  Neither is Kenny Farmer.

Also, in response to the person claiming that a lot of frauds come from Kyle - so do a lot of wonderful people who speak their language and practice their Lakota way of life.  I don't think it is fair to cast aspersions on the whole community. 

ska
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: Bears Ghost on August 31, 2015, 10:48:41 am
Please understand that I meant no disrespect to the community in Kyle, and I wholeheartedly apologize if I've offened anyone unintentionally.  My relatives there told me that the whole Pine Ridge area is having trouble with people of questionable morals taking advantage of locals and non-native visitors. I simply asked if the well documented frauds and abusers from the Chips family were from there. As my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. I hope to find more information on the qualifications of those who supposedly gave permission/trained this person running the ceremony.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: ska on August 31, 2015, 01:31:06 pm
Kenny Farmer has been doing his thing in Washington for years.  He was also involved with the "sundance" that took place at Mount Hood.  He is currently listed as the Community President for Butte Creek, Rosebud reservation and his address is listed in Wood, SD, where he also had a sundance. 

http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/government/members/community-presidents (http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/government/members/community-presidents)

Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: earthw7 on August 31, 2015, 02:21:48 pm
Yes a lot of wonderful people in Kyle and the Chipps (Godfrey and Charles) as far as i knew did not live there full time but their relatives do today. There is a lot of abuse going on everywhere but there are still real traditions happening among the people, We still have not figured out how to handle this in a good way. We do have the declaration made by the people but many don't want to follow it due to money. This was made by the Lakota/Dakota/Cheyenne people. As pointed out this relates only to our people.
How do we separate the abuse from what is real, and the abuse, plus all the abuser who make up lies to protect the abuse. sometimes it is like going in circles, but we must still stand up and say it is wrong.
Title: Re: wynoochee sundance
Post by: debbieredbear on August 31, 2015, 04:15:23 pm
Kenny Farmer has been doing his thing in Washington for years.  He was also involved with the "sundance" that took place at Mount Hood.  He is currently listed as the Community President for Butte Creek, Rosebud reservation and his address is listed in Wood, SD, where he also had a sundance. 

http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/government/members/community-presidents (http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/government/members/community-presidents)

I know a lot of NDNs who danced at Mt. Hood. Most were good people. I also know that Mary Grimes/Thunder danced there. I heard mostly good things about it, though, until a few not so good people got involved.
Title: Re: Wynoochee sundance
Post by: Sparks on July 24, 2019, 01:38:05 am
New thread recently, essentially about the same topic and persons as the present thread:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5402.0

[Northwest Indian Treatment Center - Jojo/Kenny Farmer/Raymond "Cooney" Johns)