General > Frauds
Robert Lopez AKA Robert Morning Sky, The Terra Papers
kshaund:
I came across some postings here (mostly by educatedindian) disclaiming numerous things about Robert, not the least of which is his authenticity, especially as a Hopi/Apache Indian.
I am writing to clarify some things, and hopefully get a few readers to reconsider these. I worked and lived with Robert for more than two years in Phoenix (I'm Canadian and left my family to do research with him). He is 100 percent native american so why anyone would discount that is ridiculous - have you ever seen him?
And who is to know what the proper native dress is? He has several costumes (and some authentic native dress, totally different than costumes) depending on where he's performing/lecturing. And that's a basis for fraud?
He has never claimed anything that he is not and has gone to great lengths (as has been point out) to preface his work with "I'm a nobody". He has also spoken often to us that the Hopi will deny his existance on purpose because he broke away from their tradition AND IS TEACHING WHITE PEOPLE, but has not, did not, talk about Hopi prophecy first - he ALWAYS waited until someone else did and then would follow it up. That's why he was denied - how many authentic Indians are in the white world teaching? And you cannot with any remote sincerity even have Robert Ghost Wolf come to mind - he's not Indian even 1 percent.
His point about the Blue Star and Katsina should be well made at how easy it is for something to be taken and used later as if it had history. That he caught this error of other people was pointed out by him, not made by him.
Otherwise, I do not know what research you have done, if you have ever met him personally or even better spoken to him - but I suspect you have not because otherwise you would likely have had a much different opinion.
Finally, regarding comments about Karen Degenhart - in Robert's work many people would jump on his bandwagon with their own agenda (and dysfunctions). Ms. Degenhart was one of them that Robert never associated with in any way. She sent letters after letters to him that were nonsense and not considered at all. That she associated with Robert, does not mean it was mutual!
I am happy to answer any questions to clarify this - and would also like to know what all these conclusions (he's a fraud) are really based on!
k.
Barnaby_McEwan:
--- Quote from: kshaund on July 20, 2008, 03:07:15 pm ---He is 100 percent native american so why anyone would discount that is ridiculous - have you ever seen him?
--- End quote ---
No one said otherwise. The question is whether he is Hopi or Apache as he claims.
--- Quote ---And who is to know what the proper native dress is?
--- End quote ---
In his case, Hopi and Apache people will probably have a pretty good idea, don't you think?
--- Quote ---He has also spoken often to us that the Hopi will deny his existance on purpose because he broke away from their tradition AND IS TEACHING WHITE PEOPLE...
--- End quote ---
.. a load of nonsense and dressing it up as somehow rooted in Indian beliefs.
I've got some mind-blowing news for you: the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually the prophesied Second Coming of Jesus. The church hierarchy would deny it, of course, but that's only because they're stuck in fear-consciousness and cling to their power. They can't handle the powerful new realities now emerging but the truth will blah blah blah...
--- Quote ---And you cannot with any remote sincerity even have Robert Ghost Wolf come to mind - he's not Indian even 1 percent.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, but Indian ancestry does not guarantee truthfulness.
--- Quote ---His point about the Blue Star and Katsina should be well made at how easy it is for something to be taken and used later as if it had history. That he caught this error of other people was pointed out by him, not made by him.
--- End quote ---
Er, hello? He made it up! Pointing out that someone else elaborated on his fantasy still means it's not real!
--- Quote ---If you have ever met him personally or even better spoken to him - but I suspect you have not because otherwise you would likely have had a much different opinion.
--- End quote ---
Not everyone is as suggestible as you seem to be. Perhaps if I met him my opinion of him would be lower still.
--- Quote ---...and would also like to know what all these conclusions (he's a fraud) are really based on!
--- End quote ---
It's all there in the archived thread on him, which you seem to have read. It's not anyone else's problem if you don't understand what's written there.
kshaund:
My apologies - I thought this website might pertain to intelligent discussions and researchers - it seems it is a branch of the skeptics society, the ones who deny and debunk at the cost of all else, especially the possiblity of truths lest they actually be wrong.
I am not adept at using all the fancy return quoting here (and don't plan to be here long enough to learn based on this reply), so will answer what you posted generally:
My reference to Ghost Wolf was because of earlier claims in the posts (yes I read them). I was trying to generally show that there are many errors in the thinking in this thread, not just one.
Since you admit you haven't even met him, how would you claim to know he is not Apache? Oh, sorry, I referred back to my opening statement and got the answer myself.
I have been to Apache Mountain with Robert, a place where the Apache have kept watch for hundreds of years and do to this day within vew of the Mexican border on a field trip, have you? I have seen Robert run 20 miles without losing his breath in the heat of the desert, something Apache's are VERY well known for, have you? I lived with Robert's warrior personality in thought and action for over two years. Have you even heard him speak on audio or video? These are just a few easy examples of real experiences (much closer to the truth than armchair critics like yourself). At least I made the effort to spend time with him to determine for myself if he is authentic or not - you admittedly have not yet passed judgment.
I've also met and spent time with many other researchers (Colin Andrews for one) because I didn't want to rely on the 'word' of others, like you do, I wanted to find out for myself. Have you studied Apache and Hopi names so much you know everything? Have you studied Hopi and Apache dress so you know everything? I saw him dress well over 50 times in virtually the same dress he always wore when presenting - not dressed as he would be when performing in his dance troupe. Perhaps you aren't even looking at a photo of him - haha - wouldn't that be ironic! I have photos but probably would be called fake as will this personal testimony, no doubtedly. Otherwise my post would have been answered with some common respect and courtesty, at the very least. I care not what anyone believes and I care not if they change their mind. I only care whether or not people have, at the least, an open mind.
And the Hopi elders (of whom absolutely know all about Robert! I have seen them myselves!) will absolutely deny they know him - and Robert has also always said every time the topic of Hopi prophecy was brought up that he does NOT speak for the Hopi! He ALWAYS said that - he spoke only of a few Hopi prophecies that were already published somewhere and gave his interpretation. He also said there were other prophecies he would NOT speak of because he had yet to find that they had somehow been published and were now known.
And if you think there isn't politics among the Hopi or Apache or any group on earth, that is an error. Just in case someone thinks they're all perfect, they're not. But I have yet to hear or see of any other Indian speaking about this stuff, anywhere. The Hopi elders that speak on occasion aren't saying much except the same thing over and over without all the history and ANY data to support it.
You call what I say from personal experience nonsense - how is that supposed to give you any credibility?
In the past month I had decided to become available on the internet because of my experience with Robert and his work and only signed in here to (I thought) add to the discussion based on more than assertations full of fluff.
Regards and best wishes to you who chose to judge without being totally informed.
educatedindian:
--- Quote from: kshaund on July 20, 2008, 05:08:25 pm ---1. My apologies - I thought this website might pertain to intelligent discussions and researchers
2. - it seems it is a branch of the skeptics society, the ones who deny and debunk at the cost of all else, especially the possiblity of truths lest they actually be wrong.
3. Since you admit you haven't even met him, how would you claim to know he is not Apache?
4. Oh, sorry, I referred back to my opening statement and got the answer myself.
5. I have been to Apache Mountain with Robert, a place where the Apache have kept watch for hundreds of years and do to this day within vew of the Mexican border on a field trip, have you?
6. I have seen Robert run 20 miles without losing his breath in the heat of the desert, something Apache's are VERY well known for, have you?
7. I lived with Robert's warrior personality in thought and action for over two years.
8. I've also met and spent time with many other researchers (Colin Andrews for one) because I didn't want to rely on the 'word' of others, like you do, I wanted to find out for myself.
9. Have you studied Apache and Hopi names so much you know everything? Have you studied Hopi and Apache dress so you know everything?
10. ....Otherwise my post would have been answered with some common respect and courtesty, at the very least.
13. I care not what anyone believes and I care not if they change their mind. I only care whether or not people have, at the least, an open mind.
12. And the Hopi elders (of whom absolutely know all about Robert! I have seen them myselves!) will absolutely deny they know him - and Robert has also always said every time the topic of Hopi prophecy was brought up that he does NOT speak for the Hopi! He ALWAYS said that - he spoke only of a few Hopi prophecies that were already published somewhere and gave his interpretation. He also said there were other prophecies he would NOT speak of because he had yet to find that they had somehow been published and were now known.
And if you think there isn't politics among the Hopi or Apache or any group on earth, that is an error. Just in case someone thinks they're all perfect, they're not. But I have yet to hear or see of any other Indian speaking about this stuff, anywhere. The Hopi elders that speak on occasion aren't saying much except the same thing over and over without all the history and ANY data to support it.....
Regards and best wishes to you who chose to judge without being totally informed.
--- End quote ---
In this case, that means you send best wishes to yourself. You are not very well informed at all, and base what you know of this man largely on your own wishful thinking about Hopis and Apaches.
I hope you don't mind my habit of adding numbers to your post so it'll be clearer what I'm answering.
1. You claim to be making an apology, then follow it up with insults and pretensions of being superior. Not the best start. Grow up. We will not waste our time on you and your ego.
2. Obviously you were wrong. Why you confused an American Indian activist site with the Skeptics is something you should ask yourself.
Incidentally, the Skeptics certainly are far more adept at fact finding than you;ve shown yourself to be.
3. Obviously it never occurs to you there are Apaches at this site, as well as several hundred other Indians who know far more than you do. Your condescension borders on racism.
4. There's that condescending racism again.
5. Since Apache Mountain is a camping site off the rezzes, how would that prove anything? You don't even realize the mountain is nowhere near Mexico. It's far closer to Albuquerque.
All you've done proven you know very little about Apaches or Indians in general, except that you consider yourself superior and (wrongly) more knowledgeable than The Dumb Indians you look down on.
6. No, buddy. That's not the Apaches who are famous for that racist stereotype you peddle as "proof" that Morning Sky is Apache.
You're thinking of the Tarahumara of Mexico. And yes, I can't believe I have to tell you this. But Apaches do get out of breath from running. The longest run I've ever done in my life is the two mile run for the US Army in boot camp. And yeah, I was out of breath, just like any other human being would be, outside of highly trained athletes of any race, creed, or color.
So apparently your racism is not limited to Indians, but to stereotypes of other races as well.
7. Unless he's a veteran or a fighter for his (alleged) people, he's no warrior. That's your stereotypes speaking again.
The second one we know is not true. He's never done a thing for Apaches and Hopis except harm, selling silly ideas about Indians to naive outsiders engaged in wishful thinking like yourself.
8. You seriously think that name dropping one of the crop circle people will impress us?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22colin+andrews&btnG=Search
9. I guarantee every Indian in here knows far more about Indian names than your pompous, ignorant, racist self.
10. Perhaps no one answered you because they regard you as hopeless and beyond reason.
11. Then why are you here? Oh, that's right. In your racism, you believe you know much more than any Dumb Indian ever could.
12. There it is again, your assertion that you know far more than any dumb Indian could. Not only that, you claim to know each and every Hopi elder. Quite a feat. But not something any Indian anywhere would fall for. Esp not from someone whose gone to elaborate and futile means to set himself up as the Decider Of What Indians Know, but has only opened himself up to mockery for knowing so little.
It's interesting to see the caliber of people taken in by Morning Sky.
educatedindian:
Here's Kshaund, one of the UFO people.
http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&username=kshaund
Apparently Morning Sky is now missing, according to her.
http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=books&num=1211521176&start=0#1211521176
Other favorite sites of hers, Above Top Secret and Below Top Secret.
The older NAFPS members might remember that we once had a competition for Looniest Nuage Site. These sites of hers give the ones we found a run for the money.
In all seriousness, I'd like for kshaund to give her answer as to what she thinks happened to Morning Sky.
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