NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on September 25, 2006, 07:38:19 pm

Title: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: educatedindian on September 25, 2006, 07:38:19 pm
Mostly seems naive and shocked that people object. He wants comments, here's a chance to convince the guy. Please post anything you send to him and any answers from him.

http://www.quakersweat.org

A Quaker Sweat Lodge was conducted at the annual Gathering of Friends General Conference for over ten years, until 2003. It was approved for 2004, then abruptly canceled, due to charges of "racism" and "cultural appropriation." Controversy over the charges and the decision have continued ever since. This site assembles documents from this discussion and resources on the issues.  The site is an unofficial and personal project of Chuck Fager, who has actively participated in this  discussion.

http://www.quakersweat.org/racism.html

In spite of numerous requests, none of those who have charged that the Quaker Sweat Lodge is "racist" and "cultural appropriation" have as yet responded to the following two queries:

1. What exactly is "racism" and "cultural appropriation" as they apply to something like the sweat lodge?

2. Specifically how does the Quaker Sweat Lodge fit these definitions of "racism" and "cultural appropriation"?

This page is reserved for these responses, if and when they are sent in.
   
Please send them to me at: Email: chuckfager@aol.com
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: JosephSWM on September 26, 2006, 07:49:28 pm
Here's what I wrote to them. You might be able to tell that there is no love lost in my feelings towards quakers.


Hello,

I do not want to sound mean nor nasty nor hateful but I do want to get to the point. The posing of the question of what is racism and cultural appropriation is to me similar to a political debate that will go nowhere. The question has been posed by the Quakers and now the ball is in the Indian court and they better be able to explain themselves or else. Why?

The Quakers have had a long history of acting like they are helping Indian people but still making sure we knew they were white and better. How about defend yourself on that one. How about all the government money your people got "running" reservations. And while you are explaining things, how about Richard Nixon?

I don't think anyone here at this forum nor any Indian should play ball  with you and your turn the table around tactics.

You lack of respect for our opinion, our feelings, our culture, our whole being is very evident. You ask us to explain cultural appropriation. You know what it is. Are you that naive.

I would say to any others at NAFPS not to respond to this question.


Joseph
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Moma_porcupine on September 27, 2006, 02:33:00 am
I want to point out that in this situation ,the Quaker community has done the right thing and has had enough respect for the wishes of Native peoples to put a stop to "the Quaker Sweat Lodge".

Part of the letter at the link below bitterly complains about this saying ;

 http://www.quakersweat.org/qsl-02.html

Quote
"the minutes of the LRCP from 4th Month 2004, record the Committee for Ministry on Racism as declaring, When someone is so strongly offended by our behavior we must take heed, no matter what our intentions."

I don't think it is the Quakers in general that are having a hard time understanding what is cultural appropriation , but it is actually just a few individuals who are a part of the Quaker community , who don't seem to get it .

Especially the individual who wrote this long letter complaining about what , in my opinion , should be easily recognizable as basic Native rights to govern and protect their own culture and Spiritual ceremonies , as they see fit . Who knows why this individual feels so threatened by this ... ???

I appreciate that the Quaker leadership recognized and respected the concerns expressed by the Mashpee Wampanoag and in response they discontinued using the Sweat Lodge ceremony. Whether people agree with every thing Quakers have done in the past ,  if other people all showed the same respect and senstivity , as the Quaker leadership has in this case , we would not have nearly so many problems to discuss in this forum . I don't think the Quakers deserve any critism for their response to this . Especially not from us too !

Sounds like they are already getting plenty of critism for discontinuing these Quaker sweat lodges, from some of their own members  .
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Moma_porcupine on September 27, 2006, 02:51:37 pm
http://www.quakersweat.org/qsl-02.html

I can pick out a few of the things this person has said himself , in his letter of complaint , found in the link above , that might help the young people who became involved in this "Quaker sweat lodge" understand what people are getting at when they say " cultural appropriation". I do feel concerned for these young people who became innocently involved in this .

Quoting from the long letter of complaint
Quote
"There are also native teachers who have worked quietly with devoted non-natives to find ways to share what is good in their traditions, because they think the underlying spirituality could be of benefit, even to us whites, if used respectfully."

Quote
"George Price’s article in the February 2002 Friends Journal, which explains how his native
teachers led the early sweats at the Gathering, and then instructed him to continue them

By his own account, George has spent many years studying and working with such "authentic"
native teachers."

Quote
"Clyde Bellacourt of the American Indian Movement, who also encouraged Price to continue the sweats, when Bellacourt visited the Gathering in 1989."

So here this guy has repeatedly pointed out that these traditions were learned from Native teachers .

But then , speaking about a write up done explaining the Quaker Sweat Lodge , he goes on to say ;

Quoting the long letter of complaint
Quote
"note that it does not mention Native American spirituality or ceremonies. The organizers say this is not an accident; they assert that the experience has become distinctively Quaker, it is not "stolen" or imitation anything. "

He then tries to suggest the concerns Native people have expressed with regards to the out of context use of their Sacred traditions , are the opinions of " self appointed outsiders "

Quoting the long letter of copmplaint  
Quote
"Are we now to submit our seventy-plus workshops to a new round of reviews by self-appointed outsiders, persons and groups with no involvement in FGC, no presence at the Gathering, because they might take exception to some of what is on our program?"

Well there you have it . This person who is objecting bitterly that Native people feel the Quaker sweat lodge is cultural appropriation explains that some of his friends learned these traditions from Native teachers , he then goes on to explain the traditions are now Quaker and Native people are now "self appointed outsiders" .

In yet he cannot understand the concept of "cultural appropriation , or how failure to recognize Native American authority and ownership is a form of racism which has, and continues to , result in genocide .

It is hard to understand why he can't see this , but I guess we all have blind spots ....

These quotes have been taken from a very long letter , and are not in context. The individual who wrote this offers many rationalizations that he believes are justifications for behavior many Native people experience as desecration and cultural approproiation  . Addressing all his many justifications point by
point , would be very very long , so I am just trying to stay with the bare bones , and point out what is going on here that might be percieved to be " cultural appropriation ".

I also wanted to say I feel some sympathy for the people who say they were taught the sweat lodge ceremony and encouraged to share it with their friends by people they believed were qualified Native teachers .

One thing that is often misunderstood is the concept of collective ownership . Native tradtions and culture are collectively owned , sort of like the National Parks .  What this means is that the descisions are not made in consideration of individual desires  , but are made in consideration of the well being of the whole . Sometimes , with the best of intentions, mistakes get made , and when it is realized what was done was not in the best intrest of the whole , the mistake gets corrected. Individual "owners" do not have a right to "share" something in a way that is not in the best intrests of the whole .

I don't think that people who become involved in leading Native ceremonies believing they are welcome to do so , are "guilty " of anything - at least not until they find out that many Native people feel offended by this , and the choice is  made to ignore this.
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: debbieredbear on September 27, 2006, 04:24:24 pm
Quote
It is hard to understand why he can't see this , but I guess we all have blind spots ....

I think he CAN See it. He just doesn't want to, that's why he dismissed the Wampanog letter and will most likely dismiss any others. He already has. He called them "self appointed outsiders."
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Diana on November 11, 2006, 08:48:01 am
Here is a comment I found on a web site about the Quaker Sweatlodge from a Quaker. This person actually participated in building and worshipping in a native sweatlodge. Please go to http://rftlight.blogspot.com/2006/04/quaker-sweat-lodge.html for the a very eye-opening story. I don't think Mr. Fager is telling the whole truth on his web site or to this forum.


*Cultural appropriation is still the "biggie" for me. It was emphasized that this was a quaker and not an indian sweat, and that many and varied ethnic traditions have used "sweats" (the finiish sauna, an extinct celtic practice, etc) - and yet, we spoke prayers in native languages, not in finnish, we build a physical structure based on an indian structure, not finnish.... This is one area where I see great potential for change that could seriously change the basis for this concern.


Lim lemtsh


Diana
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: walking-soft on November 12, 2006, 12:04:33 am
 :)  http://www.quakersweat.org/

Thought this to be interesting read also.
                                                              walking-soft :)
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: JosephSWM on November 13, 2006, 07:21:52 pm
I wish I had more than the 45 minutes the library gives you to use the computer so I could read some more of this quaker fodder. I wrote a letter to chuck fager, the one I put in the post somewhere above, and he never replied. I wish he would have. I guess maybe he is still trying to think of some explanation to explain the good quaker richard nixon.

Some of you have defended quakers here, saying they have done some good. All my personal dealings, meaning in person and not a computer, with quakers have proved to me through thier actions that they lie and talk out of both sides of thier mouths. And when that spirit moves them they certainly can betray a trust.

So let them have their sweat, maybe they will melt and that will be the end of them.

Joseph
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: weheli on November 13, 2006, 07:39:56 pm
 Joesph,
I totaly agree with you. I am sure that if they dressed up like priests and performed duties of a Priest, Monk, Ect. the issue would be addressed and more than likely more forceful. Why than is it ok to always TAKE our ceremonies and it is acceptable by some/most people? ???
                                                               Weheli :-\













Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: frederica on November 14, 2006, 01:09:28 am
I had a bout not long ago with someone about the Quakers. They have the same sense of entitlement as all the rest. They are just sneakier about it I guess that makes it "peaceful". frederica
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Diana on November 14, 2006, 03:19:49 am
Here is part of a comment about Chuck Fager and George Price made by a Quaker who attended the 2005 Gathering in Blacksburg, VA.

"Oh-- also last year, at the 2005 Gathering in Blacksburg, VA, Chuck Fager and George Price (George being the Friend who was blessed by an Native American elder to share the sweatlodge among Friends)-- Chuck and George convened their own session about the sweatlodge, which I attended a part of.

Some of what I heard there was another "take" on the history of what led up to FGC's decision to cancel the sweatlodge workshop... I remain VERY concerned for the "antagonistic" approach that was being modeled, rather than encouragement for listening together for the Truth in what each "camp" was presenting."

I don't think Mr. Fager is as naive and shocked as he would have people think he is. It has been several years since the sweat lodge was discontinued and this man still has the audacity to wage his whiny war on what he perceives as an entitlement. Mr. Fager ignores what is obvious to virtually all Indians, culture appropriation, and even asks us to to explain it to the poor dear.

And one more thing, who are these so called tribal elders that all these white people seem to know? They would have you think that there is one every corner. I noticed that they never give a name or tribal affiliation.

In all fairness, some of the blogs that were written by Quakers in response to Reaching for the Light-Quaker Sweatlodge were very kind and insightful. Please go to http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=17411202&postID=114547990013004091 to read some of the comments.




Lim lemtsh

Diana
   
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: JosephSWM on November 14, 2006, 02:34:46 pm
You know thats the thing about quakers, they seem so kind so peaceful, especially in writing but they are two faced. Why didn't Fager respond to the letter.

You know they think they have some special understanding of peace but they don't. The way they act they give us all the impression that they are above us, superior to us. They were able to get CO status during ww II but Hopis were sent to prison because the government did not recognze their religion and so were not able to get CO status. And there were many other tribes too where the men were sent to prison.

I have performed at quaker schools before. They always want a synopsis of my stories (so they can approve them or not) and they do not want any dancing as part of my program. I will never perform at another Friends school no matter how much they pay.

Ain't nothing anyone can say to change my mind about quakers.

Joseph
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Diana on November 18, 2006, 08:58:58 am
I found this on Quaker Earthcare Witness (formerly friends committee on unity), I don't know if they are directly related to the Quakers. I will do a little research and let you know.
It seems like they were holding vision quests as recently as October. Here's the web address.
http://www.quakerearthcare.org/Publications/BeFriendingCreation/CurrentIssueofBFC/BFC1902/Newsletter06.htm   



BeFriending Creation       
    Volume 19, Number 2 • March-April 2006
       


Personal transformation

Narrow Ridge offers Vision Quest
opportunities in 2006

Vision Quest is a guided experience for persons seeking clarity about life directions, including three days and nights of solitary fasting in a mountain wilderness.

Narrow Ridge Earth Literacy Center in rural Grainger County, Tennessee, is offering two Vision Quest (VQ) opportunities during 2006. [The application deadline for the first VQ, June 3-June 11, has passed; those interested in the second VQ, tentatively set for October 7-October 15, should apply no later than June 15.]

Participants will experience several days of preparation and training, a time of fasting alone on Log Mountain near Narrow Ridge Center, and several days of processing, including a sweat lodge ceremony. Past participants have reported significant increases in clarity about life directions, decisions, and purpose, in addition to finding the experience profoundly restorative in terms of feelings of health and well-being. Vision Quests have been part of the rites of passage of many different cultures since time immemorial. Pictures of last year's VQ are available at the Narrow Ridge website, <www.narrowridge.org>.

Principle leader for the June VQ will be Bill Nickle, founder of Narrow Ridge who has led VQs annually for seven years. Bill will be assisted by a team who have experienced at least one VQ and who are active in programs sponsored by Narrow Ridge.

During and after the VQ, participants will stay at Strawbale Lodge on the grounds of Narrow Ridge, an eco-friendly facility constructed of sustainable building materials and utilizing solar power, composting toilets, and an on-demand water heater. Vegetarian and organic food is provided in a supportive group living and learning environment.

Individuals and couples are invited to apply. Cost is $400 per person or $720 per couple. Need-based scholarship assistance may be available. Previous camping experience is not required. Participants must submit a statement of personal intent explaining her/his interest in experiencing a VQ. Persons accepted must file a medical statement certifying they are in sufficiently good health and be willing to sign a liability waiver accepting the inherent safety risks of a VQ. Participants should prepare for the VQ over the weeks preceding the experience by following a suggested regime of reading, journaling, short-term fasting, spending time alone in reflection, and walking.

To begin application and registration, send name, address, phone and e-mail along with a $50 deposit to Narrow Ridge Center, 1936 Liberty Hill Road, Washburn TN 37888. For more information, contact Larry Osborne [of West Knoxville Friends Meeting] at 865/475-3195 or 865/ 414-5711 or by e-mail at <losborne@cn.edu>.

Narrow Ridge is a nonprofit educational organization committed to land conservation, sustainable living, building community, and fostering spiritual growth. Narrow Ridge is non-sectarian and welcomes seekers from diverse faith traditions.


Lim lemtsh


Diana


Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: 180IQ on November 20, 2006, 04:33:00 am
OK $400 vision quests - maybe this thread should be moved over to the Frauds board....
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: JosephSWM on November 20, 2006, 08:05:12 pm
Thanks for moving this over to Frauds. You know what I find confusing is why they would have to pay for food. Unless of course they have created a new VQ (I guess that either means vision quest or virilant quaker). "Composting toilet" hmmm, does that mean out house?

Jeeez, these folks would pay money for an outhouse, food that should not be eaten, and solar power (which means no electricty). How dumb can they be?

Joseph
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: NOVA SCOTIA MIKMAQS on January 17, 2007, 06:06:09 pm
SEEMS TO ME THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE STARTING A NEW RELIGION, BASED ON THEIR RULES ONLY, TRYING TO AUTHENTICATE IT USING OUR CULTURE, GAINING NOTORIETY TO THE POOR FOOLS THAT DONT KNOW ANY BETTER...I WISH THEY WOULD STOP HITCH-HIKING OUR WAYS AND FIND THEIR OWN CULTURE AND BELIEFS!! THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO FIND THEMSELVES USING OUR CULTURAL BELIEFS, BECAUSE WHAT THEYRE DOING ISNT WHAT WE BELIEVE IN!! IT'S AGAINST ALL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE!!ARE YOU ALSO AFRAID TO USE YOUR OWN BELIEFS AND CULTURE BECAUSE IT ALSO TELLS YOU WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WRONG ALSO? WHEN ARE ALL YOU POOR LOST SOULS  GONNA WAKE UP?I HOPE SOON THAT THE MORE YOU USE OUR CULTURE, THE MORE YOU WILL FIND TEACHINGS THAT STOP YOU DEAD IN YOUR TRACKS, AND FIND COMMON SENSE IN YOURSELVES.THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN YOU REACH YOUR INNER SELF AND BE PROUD TO BE WHO YOU ARE, AND YOUR OWN TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS. SO KEEP UP THE FRAUDULANT STUFF!! THE MORE YOU TRY TO STEAL, THE MORE YOULL BE HEARING FROM US. LISTEN TO OUR WORDS!! TAKE HEED AND FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS THAT ARE COMING FROM US!! MAYBE IT WILL SINK IN SOONER OR LATER AND WHEN IT HAPPENS, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL YOU BE YOUR TRUE SELF!!

ANNE MARIE
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: nahualqo on January 18, 2007, 11:34:52 pm
I have a friend of mine, a California Native American that has worshipped with Native Americans worshipping in the Quaker or Shaker mode. I have emailed him and asked him to participate in this question. I know that when I was a young man in the Pacific Northwest the Shakers had a large Native American following in the State of Washington and many, many Natives were converted to the Native American Shakers. It was called the longhouse tradition. I talked with some of them as a young adult and many of them felt that they had the best of both worlds. At the time I was seeking traditional knowlege and felt that it was a betrayal of our original relationship with our identity and our ancestors let alone betrayal of our beliefs.
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: frederica on January 19, 2007, 03:42:51 pm
 Hello and welcome. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Quakers and Shakers are completely different groups. I don't think the Indian Shaker Church is even related to the New England Shakers. What I remember is the Indian Shaker Church is Traditional Longhouse and Christian (mainly Roman Catholic) mix. You have to remember it is not about the Quaker Society as a whole, but rather an individual who says he is a Quaker, what he does, who he aligns himself with, and how he drags his feet when asked to take it down.  frederica
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: debbieredbear on January 19, 2007, 06:43:14 pm
You are correct, Frederica. the Indian Shaker religion was started by a Squaxin Island man, John Slocum. It has elements of Catholicism and traditional Native beliefs (Smokehouse). There are 3 branches of Indian Shakers, but the founding church is still in Mud Bay Washington which id near Olympia. My husband's grandfather was a Shaker minister and my husband has many relatives who are Shaker. It is very different then Quaker religin. VERY different.
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: NOVA SCOTIA MIKMAQS on January 20, 2007, 05:28:22 pm
HELLO...IM  INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT WHAT SHAKER RELIGION IS ALL ABOUT? SEE, I HAVENT HEARD OF THESE RELIGIONS AND AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE???AS WELL, WHATS QUAKER RELIGION?

THANKS, ANNE
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: debbieredbear on January 20, 2007, 09:29:36 pm
Hi Anne,

It would be hard for me to tell you a whole lot about Indian Shakers because I am not one of them. But basically, in the late 1800's, a man named John Slocum died for three days (3 being a very special number around here) and when he came back to life he said he had seen God. And he said that God wanted him to live a btter life and to be a better person. In the praying they do, his wife began to shake which is called "getting the power" and that was where the shaker name came from. My friend, who is also my husand's cousin, told me that the Shaker religion was also a way to save the traditional beliefs called "Smokehouse" or Ceowyn. There are Shakers down to northern California and east to Idaho. THey do not use drums but instead ring bells when they sing. Many people who are not Shaker will go to them for healing. I have been myself. Here are a few links:
http://www.squaxinisland.org/frames.html?pages/mlrc/shaker/shaker.html~siteContent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Shaker_Church
www.wshs.org/wshs/research/finding_aids/ms29.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/John-Slocum-Indian-Shaker-Church/dp/0806128658
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: doncampbell on April 18, 2007, 12:54:22 pm
Hi all,

I am new to this site, but I find it refreshing. Not a lot of ranting.

I am also a Quaker....and I agree with Joe? that all to often there is a patronizing do-gooding smugness about my 'people'. I also note a genius about processing hard issues. In a day of instant response, we tend to go very sdlowly to make sure we understand things (well, as well as we can anyway) and that our response enjoys the support of the whole local meeting.

I also know many of the principals in the 'sweat lodge issue'. I know of native people who have quietly supported this work, some of whom are deeply connected to their own traditions, and I certainly know of, and have avoided, plastic shamans.

The FGC organization, which is not a governing body in any sense, has placed a moratorium/ban on sweat lodges for now. The 'for now' means that there is not unity among all Friends. We have a lot of work to do to achieve that unity, whatever we conclude. The effort is to respect all of us, both for and against, while we come to 'clearness' as we call it.

I am sure you know the danger of snap decisions and the problems top down control can cause. Quakers are very good at allowing time for a concern to be 'seasoned'.

My Dad. not a Quaker, once told me that pretty much every religion and political group had probably one or two great strenths or pieces of wisdom, and likewise one or two great flaws. He cautioned me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

So, to the nub. I believe that this coming to Friends is a vewry good thing. Why? Because mainstream folks have all sense of reverence for the land they live on and have probably the most poorly developed sense of what respect means. Quakers, at least, can appreciate the importance of the questions, even if they don't get the meat.

Anyway, I hope that byu holding our feet to the fire internally, we can get to some of thesemore fundamental issues. In fact, that is one of George Price's concerns, too.

We mainstreamers have a huge chasm to cross to get healed, frow up, whatever you want to call it. We will certainly blunder rudely as we have, and worse, but we still need to heal and grow up, and everyone else needs us to do that successfully.

While Native People may challenge some things we do, and rightfully, please also hold us in your prayers for the deep soul healing we need.

Anyway, I just hope for more growth and more wisdom. Thanks all for expressing yourselves. I keep growing.

Don
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 21, 2007, 12:25:55 am
Hi Doncampbell

Your thoughtful heartfelt post seems to have gotten lost amoungst all the serious nut bars that have come through here lately .

Don
Quote
I also know many of the principals in the 'sweat lodge issue'. I know of native people who have quietly supported this work, some of whom are deeply connected to their own traditions, and I certainly know of, and have avoided, plastic shamans.

I also have known Elders who were respected within the Native community and who were open to non native friends or family members participating in some ( but not all ) traditional ceremonies .

What I have never seen, is Native Elders who think it is a good idea for non native people to lead traditional ceremonies outside of a Native community . I am sure there are a few eccentric individuals who think this is OK ,  but from what I have seen the vast majority of traditional people feel that type of " sharing " is not right . This often gets attributed to lingering anger at White people  , and sometimes that is probably a factor , but there is also reasons which have nothing to do with this at all.

As I understand it , removing traditional ceremonies from the balance provided by a knowledgable Native community , and removing traditional ceremonines from the context of a lineage which goes back into the past , and the responsibilities of carrying this forward into the future , is basicly the cause , of the MANY  problems you see listed here .

Personally I admire what I know of the Quakers past efforts to support human rights , and though I am sure we all have some room for improvement , I have quite a bit of respect for Quakers . Or I did until I saw the people mentioned above , who appear to be affiliated with Quakers, selling Sweat Lodge Ceremonies and Vision Quests ...

Thats really disgusting .

That is sort of like charging people at the door,  to sit in your meetings in the presence of God . Do Quakers do that ? Wouldn't you find that really offensive ?  It is exactly this tendancy for Sacred traditions to be abused like this ,  that has so many Native people oppposed to " sharing" . Are these people really doing this as a part of the Quaker organization ?  Why is this desecration happening  if there was a moratorium put on using traditional ceremonies?

Don
Quote
The FGC organization, which is not a governing body in any sense, has placed a moratorium/ban on sweat lodges for now. The 'for now' means that there is not unity among all Friends. We have a lot of work to do to achieve that unity, whatever we conclude. The effort is to respect all of us, both for and against, while we come to 'clearness' as we call it.

I can see it would be really confusing to on one hand feel you had been welcomed and even invited to have a Sweatlodge Ceremony as a part of Quaker get togethers , but then on the other hand discover many Native people were feeling really violated and upset by this . I have seen other situations where this has happened and I understand it can be really distressing for people to be told they stole something they thought was a gift, and that whatever good came to them from the experince was wrong . Personally I don't think it is all black or white .

We all have a lot of work to do in finding a balance again . As long as people are sincerely trying to be respectful , I don't see this as anyone being "wrong" .

But to not listen to the concerns of many Native people and to continue to use a traditional ceremony in a way many Native people feel is offensive , would be wrong . I am glad the FGC has done the right thing and put a moratorium on this , ( except for the apparent Quaker people selling ceremonies )  I appreciate the strength of character it took to do this, when there is so many people pushing to dismiss Native concerns .
 
Don
Quote
My Dad. not a Quaker, once told me that pretty much every religion and political group had probably one or two great strenths or pieces of wisdom, and likewise one or two great flaws. He cautioned me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
You know , in many Native traditions the Sweat lodge is ONLY used in healing , and I mean serious life and death sort of healing , not a weekly way to get together with friends in an intimate environment to share Prayers.  There are many traditional people who don't agree , even with Native people using the Sweat Lodge like it is a place to have weekly Church meetings .

So here is what I am really curious about ... What is the metaphorical baby that people don't want to throw out ?

What is it about a Sweat Lodge ceremony that Quaker young people have gotten so attached to it ?

Whatever this need is , could it be explored to see if it is showing an area where some healing and improvement in Quaker traditions could happen ?

What I am wondering is  , isn't there other ways these same needs can be met , that would keep Native traditions within the balance provided by a Native community and wouldn't involve the bad feeling that result from misappropriating another cultures ceremonies ?

Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Lord-of-Disco on May 02, 2007, 09:59:35 pm
Cultural appropriation extends to misrepresentation, but not much further. No one owns wisdom, or knowledge, or even techniques such as building a temporary building and throwing some water on some hot stones.

If someone dresses up as an Indian, or an Englishman, or a Chinese man to pretend to be a kung fu expert, well, the wise wil laugh, and the not so wise will be angry. BFD. Seriously, BFD. Slaves to identity, defending nothing. I can guarantee that somewhere, some seriously wise old Indian, who had nothign in common wth other Indians other than he is an Indian, and who has far more in common with that far smaller, far more selct group of people across the planet who are wise, is laughing his arse off at people clinging to surface form, whilst rejecting subtle nuance of wisdom, compassion, and not taking shit too seriously. I mean, seriously, I can guanrantee it.

If Quakers wnat ot dress up as Indians or do a sweat, why would that bother anyone who had an actual life? Gee, I guess this is trolling, i.e. people with differing opinions expressing them. Funny...
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on May 02, 2007, 10:35:59 pm
Gee, I guess this is trolling, i.e. people with differing opinions expressing them.

That's nearly right, hippie: idiots thinking we need to hear their opinions is trolling. Now get back under your bridge.
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: weheli on May 02, 2007, 11:05:25 pm
Lordy,
I agree that some "wise old indian man" would be laughing his behind off, at you!!! You are full of wind and hot air, one coming out of one end the other out of the other ;D!!!

An inipi isn't "just hot rocks with water poured over them". Your knowledge and disrespect for others is ignorance and that is an ABSOLUTE!!!! Your words says this.

What is your purpose on this forum???? The way you speak about American Indian cultures and ceremonies shows disrespect and no knowledge. Why are you here?
                                                                         Weheli

Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on May 03, 2007, 06:55:09 am
Lord-of-Disco, you caught me at a bad moment earlier: sorry about that. If you want to continue posting here you must find a more respectful way to say what you want to say. In particular, you must remember that you don't get to tell Indians what's important or not about spiritual matters.
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: NanticokePiney on February 04, 2008, 12:54:17 am
 This discussion was brought up again at 'meeting for business' at PYM (the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting). Chuck has lost all respect from Indians that are active with the Meeting then lost the respect of the PYM itself. The PYM will never authorize sweatlodges again.

 Peace- Rich

 FYI- He's a dipshit! 
Title: Re: Quaker Sweatlodge-Comments Wanted
Post by: Smart Mule on March 27, 2019, 02:46:05 pm
Holy crow, these are still going on https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/)

Title: Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: educatedindian on March 27, 2019, 09:50:31 pm
Yes, but this is a different group. The original website was taken down after criticisms. Thread's been re titled.

This group is led by a George Price.
https://www.facebook.com/stonelodge
"I am a Quaker blues harmonica player who leads sweat lodges.
Production coordinator at Music at Snipes Farm
Studied School of Social Work, MSW at Rutgers
Studied Native American History and Culture at University of New Mexico
Studied Film & Media Studies at Bucks County Community College
Lives in Morrisville, Pennsylvania
From Oaks, Pennsylvania"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/about/
"Quaker Sweat Lodge is an adaptation of the spiritual steam baths of many cultures including of Native American, Finnish, Celtic, Russian, and Edo.  We have been celebrating it for 27 years.  Quaker Sweats have taken place in over 10 states and on or near many college and university campus' and camps as well as at Snipes Farm in Morrisville PA. 
It is not a Native American Sweat Lodge although George Price, who leads the Quaker Sweat, has a bachelors degee in Native American History and Culture and has also studied with several traditional Native American teachers."
Title: Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 28, 2019, 01:48:10 am
It's a pretendian sweat. Their claims that it's based on other cultures, or that it's "universal" are distractions and they know it. Those cultures don't have sweatlodges.
Title: Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: Sparks on March 28, 2019, 02:34:08 am
Yes, but this is a different group. The original website was taken down after criticisms. Thread's been re titled.

This group is led by a George Price.

Isn't that the same George Price referred to here back in 2006, then?

Quoting from the long letter of complaint
Quote
"There are also native teachers who have worked quietly with devoted non-natives to find ways to share what is good in their traditions, because they think the underlying spirituality could be of benefit, even to us whites, if used respectfully."
Quote
"George Price’s article in the February 2002 Friends Journal, which explains how his native teachers led the early sweats at the Gathering, and then instructed him to continue them
By his own account, George has spent many years studying and working with such "authentic" native teachers."
Quote
"Clyde Bellacourt of the American Indian Movement, who also encouraged Price to continue the sweats, when Bellacourt visited the Gathering in 1989."

So here this guy has repeatedly pointed out that these traditions were learned from Native teachers.

Here is part of a comment about Chuck Fager and George Price made by a Quaker who attended the 2005 Gathering in Blacksburg, VA.

"Oh-- also last year, at the 2005 Gathering in Blacksburg, VA, Chuck Fager and George Price (George being the Friend who was blessed by an Native American elder to share the sweatlodge among Friends)-- Chuck and George convened their own session about the sweatlodge, which I attended a part of.

Some of what I heard there was another "take" on the history of what led up to FGC's decision to cancel the sweatlodge workshop... I remain VERY concerned for the "antagonistic" approach that was being modeled, rather than encouragement for listening together for the Truth in what each "camp" was presenting."

I don't think Mr. Fager is as naive and shocked as he would have people think he is. It has been several years since the sweat lodge was discontinued and this man still has the audacity to wage his whiny war on what he perceives as an entitlement. Mr. Fager ignores what is obvious to virtually all Indians, culture appropriation, and even asks us to to explain it to the poor dear.

And one more thing, who are these so called tribal elders that all these white people seem to know? They would have you think that there is one every corner. I noticed that they never give a name or tribal affiliation.
Title: Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: RedRightHand on March 28, 2019, 08:42:55 pm
The "Universal" "Quaker Sweat" with "Celtic, Edo, etc" influences [sic] is just the lie they put on their public facade. They know damn well they're pretendians, appropriators, exploiters. Once you get into their group, they admit they're ripping off Lakota people. Funnily, they even think they're ripping off the Cherokee. Actually, maybe they are. Who knows what those white freaks are getting up to under their plastic tarps. Hey ya.

In their Facebook group, George Price admits it's a pretendian sweat, that he's been leading for years, "based on Inipi", and tries to reassure someone looking for "a Native sweat" that they should check out his.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/

George Price wrote: "Ryan - our sweat is based on an inipi. I was trained by Native American teachers - both Cherokee and Lakota. We don't use a pipe but the form is similar. I have been leading sweats for 30 years." 19 March 2019  https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/permalink/2214850971871539/

And he signs his nuage posts, "Ho, mitakuye oyasin - to all my relations"  3 October 2018 https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/permalink/1998421943514444/

See attached screen shots if you can't access the posts.
Title: Re: George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
Post by: Sparks on September 02, 2021, 01:33:07 am
The topic of this thread was mentioned by a new member a few months ago, so I'll update here:

I'm involved with Quakers who I know don't have a great reputation in some circles. I had heard about the dreadful Quaker guy over in the USA who was running "Quaker Sweatlodge" and wouldn't stop even when asked, even before I found the thread here http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=859.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=859.0). Also I have heard of Chuck Fager, who was a vocal supporter of the "sweatlodge guy" :-[. Anyway, I hope Quakers over here in England are not all like those guys. I know a few Quakers in the USA by email so may be able to ask connections to find out something if Quakers over there are misbehaving still/again at any point.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/quakersweat/

That group is now private (closed) (410 members), and the only text visible as of today is exactly the same as shown in Smart Mule's first screenshot of March 27, 2019. Also quoted in extenso by educatedindian later the same day.

So I guess nothing has changed. "Business as usual"? — Or maybe not?:

http://www.quakersweat.org

That site is gone. Good thing we have quotes in the thread, telling us what it was about. Also, the site was preserved three times in 2008, here is the last one:

https://web.archive.org/web/20081119152255/http://www.quakersweat.org/

For the record (and for those interested in the development of things), I found two long discussions and comments from 2004 that are not mentioned here before:

https://kitenet.net/pipermail/sayma/2004-October.txt
https://www.quakerranter.org/we_quakers_should_be_cooler_th/