NAFPS Forum

General => Research Needed => Topic started by: 180IQ on January 05, 2005, 05:50:02 am

Title: Johnny Moses
Post by: 180IQ on January 05, 2005, 05:50:02 am
What about this guy. I met him in the Seattle area and on the Swinomish rez at LaConner and have listened to him in his "Red Cedar Circles" which were attended by people of all colors.

From what I've seen about him on the net he is supposedly respected by his own people, however he is doing a lot of selling.

Have a look at these:

http://www.johnnymoses.com/

http://www.redcedarcircle.org/

http://www.sisiwiss.org/



Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: JosephSWM on January 05, 2005, 02:06:37 pm
I have read blurbs about him in News From Indian Country. Usually in  reference to storytelling events that include Jospeh Bruchac, etc.

His website has changed since last I looked, especially the workshops, which seemed geared toward making money from non-Indians and teaching "medicine ways".

But I must come clean. I too am a professional storyteller. You can all take a look at my website and see if I am doing anything "wrong". I do programs in schools K-8 mainly and do not share any of my people's sacred stories. My workshops are historical in nature. If I do or if I did, or if I didn't know any medicine ways, I certainly would not sell these in workshops.

Its hard to make a living as a storyteller and so I can understand if Moses may have gotten sucked into someone's good pitch about being part of these red cedar circles and making money. Somehow though, seeing his site it does not look like it is geared to school programs where there would be a cultural/educational experience for children to learn from.

Joseph
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: 180IQ on January 05, 2005, 04:48:58 pm
I remember the red cedar meetings I attended in someone's home in Ballard. Johnny was so entertaining, soft-spoken and sweet. I recall thinking at the time, "here's a guy who probably won't be able to avoid fame". He "did the voices" of the characters in the stories, and the stories were traditional, tho not necessarily sacred they did all have a serious lesson to teach. Everyone seemed to love Johnny and the whole event, they gave him a few bucks but I sure don't think he was getting rich off of them. The SiSiWiss (sp?) Medicine Society events took place on the rez and as I recall there was no money involved.

Where is your website, Joseph? You could add the link to your profile....
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: JakeAl on January 05, 2005, 04:52:32 pm
I guess if you want to have your culture and  spiritual ways overrun by wannabe's and culture vultures... one ought to do as these others do. Sell your relatives most personal ideas and creative spiritual expressions to those with money...generally, the people with money are not the skins. Or is my statement narrow minded and selfish?

Should we acknowledge and appreciate those with certain cultural and spiritual gifts with money?

The generally accepted statement is that spiritual ways are for everyone... even fools crow decided before his death that everyone had a right to know the lakota spirituality... some lakota believe this others don't.

It is a puzzle of sorts I think.. Some Indian people do not embrace their own cultures or spirituality.. and they make fun of those who do...others don't embrace it because they are clueless due to acculturation/assimilation. They usually embrace the beliefs of the oppresors or the bottle.

Do you suppose that in an effort to be important big men, that those Indians who know the culture and spirituality .. sell out or give away the culture to those who do want it and value it? I'm not talking about frauds here but about real Indian people. Are our ways the answer to the problems that threaten our very existance

Avol Looking Horse said that lakota ceremonies are to be protected and not for non Indians. Some of the leaders respect this decree.. while other leaders  ignore it.

Personally, I generally keep the little that I know to myself and dissuade nons from encroaching.. But sometimes I feel like a bigot in doing so. These are a few things that I think about... a sort of devils advocate viewpoint to some I spose.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: JosephSWM on January 05, 2005, 05:31:44 pm
I think  it all  depends on what a person is selling. Some stories are sacred and some are not. The ones I mostly tell are animal stories that are entertaining but also teach values lessons.

Sacred stories are that, sacred. They can only be told by certain people to ceratin people at certain times of the year, at least in Cherokee tradition. These are not for sale. They are not just stories, they are my people's history. And there is much in the way of history (history in the sense of how non-Indians see it) that I have been taught that has never been written down, not by James Mooney or anyone, and hopefully never will.

If you condemn a storyteller like Moses or myuself, then the next step should be to stop public powwows or put an end to all the Native American dance troupes around the country that charge to put on a show.

I think most people, Indian and non-Indian can tell the difference.

When I am at a school and am asked to talk about my spirituality I politely move on to the next story.

Anyway, thats all I guess. Oh yeah, I'll put my website listing on my profile, sorry I forgot.

Joseph
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on January 05, 2005, 05:43:26 pm
The traditional people around here hold Johnny in high regard for his storytelling. He is a gifted storyteller who speaks many languages. They do not hold him in high regard for his "Red Cedar Circle" stuff and are flat out angry that he is teaching newagers the Indian Shaker religion, which he has no right to do. I generally tell people to go and here his stories but don't get caught up with the other bs. I think he started teaching the Indian Shaker because he knows that if he taught the newagers Smokehouse, or Ceowin, he'd be in big trouble. Smokehouse people would come after him. Shakers won't. However, no non-Indian  ever is allowed to join either religion. And Johnny knows about the West Coast beliefs concerning songs as property and teaches his followers songs belonging to others.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: JosephSWM on January 05, 2005, 05:50:07 pm
Thanks for the extra info. I know the only song I was given permission to sing in public is the Stomp Dance song, which is a social dance song.

The few times I have talked privately with non-Indians about my spiritual beliefs and always am told that I have it wrong, that so and so taught them this or that and that so and so knows more than me so I don't even go there.

I ahve even been asked in private religious schools NOT to talk about my beliefs. LOL

Joseph
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on January 05, 2005, 06:32:12 pm
I think one of the problems with songs is that there are so many tapes of pow wow songs and people think that all songs are public. At some of the potlatches and winter dancing (religious), they have escorted people out when they found a tape recorder. One guy was banned when they found him with a sketchbook. He had been told no pictures and they meant it.  I have a few songs I have permission to sing if I credit the songs "owner", which I do. I always make sure and tell people they may not sing that song unless THEY seek permission from the songs owner. I have been disrespected in this one time. By someone who is a fraud. What a surprise.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: educatedindian on January 05, 2005, 11:31:36 pm
Jake, if I remember right, Fools Crow started off saying outsiders had a right to Lakota beliefs, but then changed his mind after he saw the damage done. After all he signed several of the declarations of elders vs exploiters that were written at AIM sponsored gatherings.

I could be wrong. Did he change his mind yet again before he died?

And my two cents on this whole thing about storytelling: I'm glad if outsiders learn Native non-sacred teaching stories. I'm glad if they learn Native values, ethics, culture. The hard part is how to get them to quit twisting these (and the sacred parts) into a commodity to be exploited. For example, I'm writing an encyclopedia entry on Thomas Banyaca's life, and it's pretty appalling to see how many frauds are twisting his words out there. "We are the ones we've been waiting for" has become a catchphrase for wannabes who take it to mean "Exploit away, we don't mind!"
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Jim Tree on January 06, 2005, 10:39:16 pm
Hi All,
I just got back on this board and thought I would share my experiance with Jonney.
We met at some of the local red ceder mettingss. I was invited because of soome speaking I had done at the college here. What I found was a very drunk man who was totaly manipulsated by a group of wicca ladies. I talked with him when he was sober and he cryed and said it was all out of control, my feeling is that he started the red ceder thing in good faith and it has been taken over by the wiccas. This is just what it is like her in NW Montana, he is in really bad shape.
Just FYI.
Tree
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on January 06, 2005, 11:41:08 pm
Jim,

I have heard much of the same thing. The times I have met him, he seemed good hearted. He did not seem like he was trying to do wrong. Then last year I heard that he was in a bad way. The person that told me is both Smokehouse and Shaker and her belief, and that of many others, is that he abused the medicine and is paying the price. Sad really as he is a gifted storyteller. :(
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: 180IQ on January 07, 2005, 01:58:42 am
That is real sad news. It was 1987-88 when I was around him and I saw no trace of alcohol at that time.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: educatedindian on June 09, 2005, 08:20:26 am
I spoke with a Swedish anthropologist over here, Carl Johan Curt, whose written quite a bit on the Nuu-Chuu-Thalt? (I probably spelled that wrong). When he was in Seattle he came across a "Nootka shaman" calling himself Johnny Moses doing seminars that sounded like Hindu ideas dressed up as Native. Carl checked with the tribal council. They never heard of him, and they don't call themselves Nootka, that's the colonial term they hate. Anyone else have anything on him?
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on June 09, 2005, 02:10:00 pm
Johnny Moses is a respected storyteller. I believe he is Skagit, Swinomish, Nu Chal Nulth and someting else. Unfortunately, he has been teaching non-Indians in his "red cedar circle" some pretty strange things. :(
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: jim tree on June 09, 2005, 03:28:12 pm
I met Johnny a couple of years ago and he WAS a respected story teller. Unfortunatly his group the "Red cedar circle" has been taken over by a lot of wicca folks. I attended one of the circles and it was pretty scary. Johnny was so drunk he could hardly walk, but everyone still showed him great honor and defferance.
I talked with him when he was sober and basically what has happened is he has become an alcoholic...self admitted..and the wicca's are running his groups still using him as  an icon and to give it some authenticity. It is really pretty sad, I really liked him, he is caught in a real mess. They keep control of him through enableing him to drink and still be the "shaman".
The group used to be a mix of NDN and Shaker beliefs. All  this happened two years ago so maybe he has been able to get strait since then, I hope so, I think he was a good man before.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on June 09, 2005, 11:05:21 pm
Well, that explains it is the wiccans have taken over things. They run things according to their beliefs, which is mix and match. And the last I heard, Johnny was still drinking hard. :(
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: educatedindian on June 10, 2005, 11:11:51 am
The flyer Carl gave me was from 1999. It does say he's a "Nootka shaman" and gives a price of 60 bucks for a "how to find inner peace" ceremony. So it seems his group has gone through quite a few changes.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: niska on February 21, 2009, 05:02:26 pm
What about this guy. I met him in the Seattle area and on the Swinomish rez at LaConner and have listened to him in his "Red Cedar Circles" which were attended by people of all colors.

From what I've seen about him on the net he is supposedly respected by his own people, however he is doing a lot of selling.

Have a look at these:

http://www.johnnymoses.com/

http://www.redcedarcircle.org/

http://www.sisiwiss.org/




johnny is a true native and yes resides on the reserve and grew up with natives and is tru to his people.. he is a good mentor to natives..dang if an ndn cannot share a story or two.. anyone would want to call them out and shut them down for speaking their minds.. actually johnny is a good friend of mine..lmao he only lives 17 miles from me...
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: niska on February 21, 2009, 05:06:52 pm
Jim,

I have heard much of the same thing. The times I have met him, he seemed good hearted. He did not seem like he was trying to do wrong. Then last year I heard that he was in a bad way. The person that told me is both Smokehouse and Shaker and her belief, and that of many others, is that he abused the medicine and is paying the price. Sad really as he is a gifted storyteller. :(
hi their deb nice to meet you.. if anything smoke house and all shaker is all not to be talked of.. you know what I am saying.. its totally different from the regular pow-wow seen and such.. they do not have an open door to those.. its via invitation only.. as for what you been saying people in these forums need to understand.. certain traditions are still as sacred and never to be published.. its bad anough all the other most traditions are being at its best use of none-natives..

oseum hoyt!!
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: debbieredbear on February 21, 2009, 06:41:40 pm
I actually saw Johnny at Vi Hilbert's funeral. I tink maybe he has straightened up. I hope so. I like him. He is distantly related to my husband. Vi was my husband's close cousin. Her dad and my husband's grandpa were brothers. I didn't speak with Johnny, just saw him when he stood to sing. But he looked like he was doing better.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: niska on February 21, 2009, 06:59:59 pm
I actually saw Johnny at Vi Hilbert's funeral. I tink maybe he has straightened up. I hope so. I like him. He is distantly related to my husband. Vi was my husband's close cousin. Her dad and my husband's grandpa were brothers. I didn't speak with Johnny, just saw him when he stood to sing. But he looked like he was doing better.
vi was a wonder lushootseed teacher.. and by her passing everyone felt it!! and as for johnny and what he does is we can only pray for healing to him.. if its true or not? but on other matters.. please email me.... its wonderful to see people here in this forum in the area of washington state!! funny thing is the world is small when you know peoples of the northwest!! also people pull together more at gatherings and are always in with culture!!
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Epiphany on April 02, 2012, 05:36:59 pm
Johnny Moses thread also over in Frauds http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0) Hopefully all is well with him now, anyone have updates?
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Old Member on September 30, 2016, 01:31:45 am
Johnny Moses is firstly, not Nu Chal Nulth, he is Nook Sack. He claimed he was Nu Chal nulth for many years, and found out through his living family what tribe he really is.  Johnny Moses, phenomenal storyteller and culture bearer ( seen him be approved my elder culture bearers) fell hard into a life of addiction... and then continued to try to teach and carry on in the old medicine ways while being not 'of the right way' to do so. His life of addiction had become so well known by the local tribes of the Seattle area where he lived most of his life, they do not have anything to do with him. ( The story he continues to tell is that he was raised in a village on a remote island in Canada is completely false, he was raised for the most part in Seattle by his great Aunt).  He has convinced plenty of non NDN folks all is well, and gets the support of non NDN to keep on teaching and sharing as a full blown drug addict.  Not the teachings of our people...and he'll say anything to get that almighty dollar to get what he really wants...
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on December 18, 2018, 03:44:28 am
Johnny Moses thread also over in Frauds http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0)

That thread (Johnny Moses "Nootka shaman") has five posts from 2005, and then one in 2016.

I suggest these two threads be merged. (Perhaps not in "Frauds"?)
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on December 18, 2018, 03:50:31 am
There is an older thread about Johnny Moses in "Research Needed":

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=105.0

Lots of comments and some (still working) links there, from 2005 to 2009.

I suggest these two threads be merged. (Perhaps not here in "Frauds"?)
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Stiqayu on October 17, 2019, 07:49:13 pm
https://www.academia.edu/9603708/Cultural_Destruction_and_Preservation_Johnny_Whis.Stem.Men.Knee_Moses_and_Coastal_Salish_Oral_Literature

This is a good read on who Jhonny Moses
Seems like a very fair paper about him and his career
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Stiqayu on October 17, 2019, 08:31:29 pm
I see Flyers online for Love Offerings
Suggested Donations and him on flyers as Master Shaman and Healer

I know two people paid 10k
For Naming Ceremony by him and he gave his ancestors names they are non native people. Sad this man has many followers or aka friends that all have thier own Red Cedar Circles where they now have followers. Just Google it. they are all over social media
 or email him your self ask for his fees.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on October 17, 2019, 10:00:22 pm
https://www.academia.edu/9603708/Cultural_Destruction_and_Preservation_Johnny_Whis.Stem.Men.Knee_Moses_and_Coastal_Salish_Oral_Literature

This is a good read on who Jhonny Moses
Seems like a very fair paper about him and his career

Quote
Cultural Destruction and Preservation: Johnny Whis.Stem.Men.Knee Moses and Coastal Salish Oral Literature
Darius M Klein
This paper examines the history and background of Coastal Salish oral literature and the work of Native American storyteller Johnny Whis.Stem.Men.Knee Moses.  The paper discusses the state of preservation of the Salishan languages in the Puget Sound region, particularly Lushootseed and Samish.  The paper analyzes two of Moses' storytelling performances, one of which was given in Lushootseed and English, the other in Samish and English.  An attempt to describe and analyze Puget Salish poetics is made, along with a comparison to Albert Lord's analysis of Serbian epic poetry in The Singer of Tales.  The paper concludes that the effects of the genocide of Native Americans have resulted in a paucity of materials from which the researcher can draw conclusions concerning Coastal Salish poetics and oral literature.  This recognition of this paucity should act as an impetus for future researchers to document and archive Native American languages and oral literatures.
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on October 17, 2019, 10:03:57 pm
Johnny Moses thread also over in Frauds http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=256.0)
That thread (Johnny Moses "Nootka shaman") has five posts from 2005, and then one in 2016.
I suggest these two threads be merged. (Perhaps not in "Frauds"?)

That thread has been merged into the present one:

There is an older thread about Johnny Moses in "Research Needed":
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=105.0
Lots of comments and some (still working) links there, from 2005 to 2009.
I suggest these two threads be merged. (Perhaps not here in "Frauds"?)
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Stiqayu on October 19, 2019, 12:55:10 am
Cultural Destruction and Preservation: Johnny Whis.Stem.Men.Knee Moses and Coastal Salish Oral Literature Darius M Klein

The paper says he might know a few languages but his Lushootseed is jumbled and his claims to others could be delusional. He is often horribly high off illegal substances and has a students that enable him. Thier is no proof of all his claims of how he grew up, if you pay attention his story often changes just on his YouTubes the hypocrisy self admitted but it's clear the man is unwell. And he is held with high regard by people like himself or more damaged.

Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on May 08, 2020, 04:09:56 am
Recent post about Johnny Moses: https://www.eomec.org/johnny-moses-ancient-wisdom.html

Short video with him, two videos for sale, and about a forthcoming book:

Quote
OLYMPIC MOUNTAIN EARTHWISDOM CIRCLE

JOHNNY MOSES
PACIFIC NORTHWEST COASTAL TRIBAL WISDOM


Johnny Moses The Prophecy Story Preview
WISDOM AND GRANDMOTHER CEDAR STORY 2019 33-MIN HD US$ 13,99 SHOP

THE PROPHECY STORY VIDEO 2018 14-MIN HD US$ 7,99 SHOP

Johnny Moses is a Tulalip Native American raised in the remote Nuu-chah-nulth village of Ohiat on the west coast of Vancouver Island, B.C., Canada. He was raised in the traditional ways by his grandparents and sent by his elders to share their teachings with all people. Johnny is a master-storyteller, oral historian, traditional healer and respected spiritual leader. His traditional name is Whis.stem.men.knee (Walking Medicine Robe). Fluent in eight Native languages, and carrier of the Si.Si.Wiss (sacred breath, sacred life) medicine teachings and healing ceremonies, Johnny Moses shares the knowledge and richness of Pacific Northwest Coastal cultural and spiritual traditions. In listening to Johnny Moses share, we hear the whispers of his grandparents as he brings to life the tales he weaves. Johnny is uniquely gifted in that in addition to the stories relayed to him by his grandparents, he can spiritually pick up the threads of the old stories – those that were woven by the grandparents of long ago, and which linger in the etheric fields.

OMEC is working with O-Books to publish the story, The Medicine Clothes that Look at the People, to be released in 2020. Videos and downloadable audio collections of Johnny Moses's storytelling as he shares through English, interwoven with ancient dialect and hand gesture language, as in the old ways, are also being produced. You may purchase the "Prophecy Story" at the store link at the top of this page.

(https://www.johnhuntpublishing.com/assets/docs/books/7498/jhp5d7237042d595.jpg)
Supported by OMEC: July 2020 Release! Cover Photo by Mitch Mattraw
Project Directors - Llyn Cedar Roberts, Rob Murphy
Film Productions: Mitch Mattraw


(https://www.eomec.org/uploads/1/2/2/3/122305056/editor/jmoses-photo.jpg)
Tulalip master storyteller and oral historian Whis.Stem.Men.Knee (Walking Medicine Robe) Photo: Mitch Mattraw

More about the book:

Quote from: https://www.johnhuntpublishing.com/moon-books/our-books/medicine-clothes-that-look-people
Medicine Clothes that Look at the People, The
Ancient Pacific Northwest Coastal epic from the Samish people, as told by master storyteller, spiritual teacher and healer, Johnny Moses.

Synopsis | Reviews (3)  — Categories Native american, Pacific northwest (or, wa), Shamanism

Synopsis
An ancient epic of the United States Pacific Northwest Coast Samish people, transcribed from a live event delivered by spiritual teacher and healer, Johnny Moses, whose traditional name is Whis.stem.men.knee, 'Walking Medicine Robe'. Johnny, a Tulalip Native American, master storyteller and oral historian, carries the Si.Si.Wiss, 'Sacred Breath, Sacred Life' teachings of his peoples. Here, he shares the story of a woman who wears beautiful Medicine Clothes. The woman wears different kinds of clothes when she visits the many different medicine people she is going to get help from, or those she will help.

'…Since the beginning of our culture, the First People (Native Americans) have maintained our tradition of storytelling. This was the primary tool for passing on information, for educating, for teaching the philosophy of our culture, for encouraging memory, for highlighting our humor, for focusing on our most talented historians. Johnny Moses brings to this generation the combined gifts of the best of our ancestors...To my knowledge, Johnny is the only individual gifted to relate these ancient stories. He was selected by his elders to listen and to remember each story and their accompanying songs.' Vi Hilbert, Skagit name: Taq.Se.Blu

(Excerpt taken from early, self-published edition, by permission of distributor Bear Song Creations, 2014)

See also: https://www.amazon.com/Medicine-Clothes-that-Look-People/dp/1789043956
Early edition: https://www.amazon.com/Clothes-That-Look-People-STORYTELLER/dp/B00VODD6OY/
Title: Re: Johnny Moses
Post by: Sparks on September 10, 2020, 11:59:56 pm
All three links in the first post (January 5, 2005) are still operative. Adding some links not posted earlier:

1991 interview: http://www.sisiwiss.org/ShamansDrum.htm

Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Moses

Undated introduction with photo*, accompanying audio (4 minutes, dated July, 2017):

https://splab.org/johnny-moses/
http://splab.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/SPLAB_20111010_Johnny_Moses.mp3

*Same photo as here: http://www.johnnymoses.com/