Author Topic: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.  (Read 23739 times)

Offline OneTimeUser

  • Posts: 2
Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« on: December 08, 2006, 12:13:55 am »
So my handle OneTimeUser is a bit of a lie, as I'm posting again   :-\

Can anybody lead me in the right direction for trustworthy, reliable internet sources and/or books on Cherokee culture and history in general? There's so much junk floating out there that I don't trust myself to get the 'good stuff'.

Any help is appreciated!

Kya Milo
Lioessens, Fryslân
The Netherlands

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 401
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 01:16:05 am »
Hi -

I see you're from the Netherlands. (sorry about that Germany gaff)

Unfortunately, Sequoia's colleague's history of the Cherokee was destroyed in a courthouse fire during the Civil War. Some of the Cherokee ancient historical traditions are repeated and placed accurately in time in my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas", but again, it is limited, as unfortunately our best source was lost.

The guidebooks to public Cherokee sites are mentioned there as well, and those guidebooks contain reliable conquest era history and culture.

For the conquest period, as for culturally...hmmm, I don't think that anything can replace visiting, but perhaps someone else here can point you to some good books. I'd start in Kingsport...








« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 09:33:52 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 01:36:07 am »
HISTORY OF THE CHEROKEE INDIANS AND THEIR LEGENDS AND FOLK LORE By Emmet Starr. ISBN: 0527857009

http://www.cherokee.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/tsalagilanguage/index.html

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 02:20:33 pm »
You are probably long gone . . .

I have probably studied Cherokee history more than most -- yet

I never heard of "Sequoyah's colleague's history" -- I'd be curious as to exactly what you are talking about.

There is more GOOD history written about the Cherokee than any othr tribe. Their history is better documented than that of any other tribe -- by far -- going back centuries. American state Papers is an excellent primary source. Starr and Freman are excellent sources as is Dub West.

Anyone claiming the Cherokee had permanent communities in historic times in Kentucky, West Virginia, or Virginia is WRONG -- PERIOD. Anyone who looks Caucasian yet says they are half-Cherokee is "misguided" at best yet many do say this.

There are 3 Fderally recognized Cherokee Tribes -- the i.] Cherokee Nation and ii.] Keetowah Band of Cherokee, both based out of Tahlequah, Oklahoma, and the Eastern Band of the Cherokee based out of Western North Carolina -- trust these three ONLY. Anyone else calling themselves the Cherokee/Tsalagi/Chickamauga  Nation/Tribe/Band based out of any state/river/mountain range is probably based on nonsense. There are state recognized Cherokee tribes in Alabama and Georgia -- if these people do have any Cherokee blood, it is in most cases, whai is called PODIA on this website -- people of distant Indian ancestry. They will get a lot of history right, but they might skew it so that they are included as Cherokee, somehow. I personally am convinced they have allowed many non-Cherokee as members. I have also researched these groups more than most, as well. I wouldn't trust any historical material they put out unless they are willing to provide their primary resources, those documents that were written during the historic epoch of the events they mention. Make sure the authors are genuine and were people who would have known those things. If they will not or can not provide such documntation after you have given them ample time to produce such documentation, consider them as frauds -- unless/until such documentation is forthcoming.

If the "primary" material they provide was written by someone NOT living during the time-frame's they mention, or was not in a position to know the events first hand, then they have NOT provided you with a "primary source".

Vance Hawkins

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 401
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 10:21:56 pm »

I never heard of "Sequoyah's colleague's history" -- I'd be curious as to exactly what you are talking about.

There is more GOOD history written about the Cherokee than any other tribe. Their history is better documented than that of any other tribe -- by far -- going back centuries. American state Papers is an excellent primary source. Starr and Freman are excellent sources as is Dub West.
Vance Hawkins

Hi Vance, 

I'm sorry I can't remember Sequoyah's friend's name - this is quite frustrating for me, but I had a stroke. I believe I read the account of his history in the museum at Cherokee in the Qualla lands, there on the river. If you're near there, I would go there and check.

He wrote it in response to David Cusick's "Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations" which is reliable back to 10,900 BCE, and pretty much continuous. That would seem to me to have any Cherokee history beat, to my knowledge.

I've been looking for Cherokee accounts of the comet impacts at the start of the Holocene, and haven't found them yet. If you can help, it would be appreciated.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 503
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 03:12:32 am »
Quote
Unfortunately, Sequoia's colleague's history of the Cherokee was destroyed in a courthouse fire during the Civil War. Some of the Cherokee ancient historical traditions are repeated and placed accurately in time in my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas", but again, it is limited, as unfortunately our best source was lost.

The guidebooks to public Cherokee sites are mentioned there as well, and those guidebooks contain reliable conquest era history and culture.

Quote
Hi Vance, 

I'm sorry I can't remember Sequoyah's friend's name - this is quite frustrating for me, but I had a stroke. I believe I read the account of his history in the museum at Cherokee in the Qualla lands, there on the river. If you're near there, I would go there and check.

He wrote it in response to David Cusick's "Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations" which is reliable back to 10,900 BCE, and pretty much continuous. That would seem to me to have any Cherokee history beat, to my knowledge.

I've been looking for Cherokee accounts of the comet impacts at the start of the Holocene, and haven't found them yet. If you can help, it would be appreciated.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas



http://archives.zinester.com/40491/130720.html

What are you talking about E.P Grondine?  Reliable back to 10,900 BC?  That’s a pretty bold statement.  I never heard of Sequoyah’s’s colleague’s history either? 

Where exactly did you get your information for “Cherokee Ancient Historical Traditions” in your book?  And what do you mean your best sources were lost? 

I looked at the website for your book and is says you’re a “Near Earth Object researcher”?  What exactly do you talk about in your book regarding Cherokees? And Native Americans?  What’s your sources? 

I’m sorry about your stroke and wish you well.  But you don’t seem to be able to back up any of your statements. 

I would ask Traditional People in Oklahoma or NC about the comets?  I wouldn't rely on New Agers books or websites.  Like VHawkings points out.  "Lots of false information out there pertaining to Cherokees


Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 401
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Reliable (!) sources wanted for Cherokee culture, history, etc.
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 05:22:01 am »
Quote
Unfortunately, Sequoia's colleague's history of the Cherokee was destroyed in a courthouse fire during the Civil War. Some of the Cherokee ancient historical traditions are repeated and placed accurately in time in my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas", but again, it is limited, as unfortunately our best source was lost.

The guidebooks to public Cherokee sites are mentioned there as well, and those guidebooks contain reliable conquest era history and culture.

Quote
Hi Vance, 

I'm sorry I can't remember Sequoyah's friend's name - this is quite frustrating for me, but I had a stroke. I believe I read the account of his history in the museum at Cherokee in the Qualla lands, there on the river. If you're near there, I would go there and check.

He wrote it in response to David Cusick's "Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations" which is reliable back to 10,900 BCE, and pretty much continuous. That would seem to me to have any Cherokee history beat, to my knowledge.

I've been looking for Cherokee accounts of the comet impacts at the start of the Holocene, and haven't found them yet. If you can help, it would be appreciated.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas



http://archives.zinester.com/40491/130720.html

What are you talking about E.P Grondine?  Reliable back to 10,900 BC?  That’s a pretty bold statement. 

Well, it is remarkable, and true. The Five Nations remembered the Holocene Start comet impacts. The Shawnee, Tuscarora, Sioux, Lenape and several of the Central American peoples did as well.

I never heard of Sequoyah’s’s colleague’s history either? 


I suggest to you the same thing I did earlier, go to the museum in the Qualla lands.

Where exactly did you get your information for “Cherokee Ancient Historical Traditions” in your book?  And what do you mean your best sources were lost?

What I said was that the best source was lost, the history of Sequoya's colleague. The sources for the traditions I passed on are always fully cited.
 
I looked at the website for your book and is says you’re a “Near Earth Object researcher”?  What exactly do you talk about in your book regarding Cherokees?


The website for my book is at amazon.com, not the link you posted. The guys at yowusa were a chuckle. I kept telling them that nothing was going to hit in 2012, and that there was no "PlanetX" but they kept on insisting that it was so. Go and listen for yourself. You'll notice the contrast, particularly between what I said and their commercials.

Excuse my spelling, its late at night and I'm tired. Tlanwha, uktena - the upper ones, not the lower ones with the crystals (you would have to pm me some other time for information on that); the actual identities of the Tsunighul and the Nunehi; the "Legend of the Bald Mountains"; the battle with the Kushita and the alliance with the Appalachi; the battle with the Catawba and the alliance with the Ocanachee.

And Native Americans?  What’s your sources? 
I’m sorry about your stroke and wish you well.  But you don’t seem to be able to back up any of your statements.

I gifted copies of my book to major depositories, so you can read it for free through interlibrary loan, and check the citations for each source. I can't retype the whole of it here for you. It's 465 pages of small type.

I would ask Traditional People in Oklahoma or NC about the comets?  I wouldn't rely on New Agers books or websites.  Like VHawkings points out.  "Lots of false information out there pertaining to Cherokees.

I always went to the earliest reliable recording of traditions which I could find. There is nothing "nuage" in my book. Period.

Its simply that the impact events were memorable, and demonstrated in the archaeological record, and thus provide a way to place the traditions accurately in time and space, whenever the traditions which remembered them survived.

I hope that the next time I go to Oklahoma, it will be to work on the Shawnee "Principal Narrative".

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas



« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:32:28 pm by E.P. Grondine »