NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Ingeborg on March 18, 2008, 10:08:37 pm
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Jorge 'Nopaltzin' Guadarrama and Jorge 'Kokopelli' Guadarrama make numerous appearances at nuage congresses etc with persons you'll find in the Fraud and Research Needed categories here. They seem to be active in Europe only, with seminars etc offered in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Consequently, the vast majority of websites coming up are Swiss, Austrian, and German.
Their website is run from Switzerland - http://www.nopalli.org
Nopalli is an organisation founded by the two Guadarramas, and several sites mention they are gathering money to build a school for children in Mexico.
http://mitglied.lycos.de/langer_frank/newsletter11.htm
WORLD CONFERENCE OF ETHNOTHERAPIES
October 7-9, 2005 at Munich University, Germany
"Traditional rituals of the Aztecs:
Mother Earth, which message do our roots have?
The Aztecs, also called Mexicas, were one of the most important peoples in precolumbian Mexico. In this workshop, two representantatives of his high culture show the rituals of their people whic are alive still today. Mythologies are being passed on about the indigenous, spiritual heritage of the Aztecs as well as visions of this people about the future in our modern world.
Beating with mother earth's heartbeat:
With Aztec rhythms and the sound of the medicine drum, travels into other states of consciousness will be done to cleanse the energy body and to release the daily blockades. You may bring your own drum.
Prayer to earth:
Rituals to cleanse the energy body or the aura take a special place to get rid of negative energies which are the cause for fatigue, sadness, or disease. With such a ritual, one can, according to Aztec opinion, cleanse cosmic energy, submit prayers or thanks or find answers to important questions. It is a living prayer to earth when we lift ourselves to the universal height of being.
Nopaltzin, Kokopelli, anthroplogists, dancers, and drummers of the Aztecs, Mexico"
This is a Swiss site announcing a seminar with the Guadarramas:
http://www.lebenskraft.ch/Referenten2008.htm
"Lecturers:
Kokopelli Jorge &
Jorge Nopaltzin Guadarrama, Mexiko
www.nopalli.ch
Born in Mexico City in 1975. Left his family when young and grew up in the North of Mexico. He studied anthropology at the National School of Anthropology and History. Kokopelli wants to spread the treasure of wisdom of Aztec culture worldwide.
The two Mexicans offer building your own ritual drum.
Additional costs approx Swiss Francs 350.00"
A c.v. for Jorge Sr I found at another site:
http://www.event-konzerte.org/Stars/Nopali.htm
"Jorge Nopaltzin Guadarrama (Mexiko)
Jorge Nopaltzin, born in Mexico in 1935, belongs to the ancient Aztec culture. For all his life, he has practiced Aztec traditions, rituals, and dance ceremonies. He received his knowledge from Teocally, a traditional school of the Aztecs. He wishes to pass on the ancient knowledge of his people. With his son Kokopelli, he founded the not-for-profit "Nopalli - Institute for Spreading the Aztec culture". This association has been founded with the intention of spreading the knowledge of Aztec culture in various countries. Presently, the Institute Nopalli A.C. works on a project in Mexico City. They are building a school for streetkids in a poor neighbourhood."
While several sites mention Jorge Sr was born in 1935, other sites claim he was born in 1945.
Another Swiss site announcing events with the Guadarramas with a few more persons researched here:
http://www.psi-tage.ch/kongress_programm_samstag.html
"Main Programme Saturday, November 11, 2006
Healing Differently
Time: 2.30 pm - 4 pm workshops
[...] Silverbird: The healing power of music, dance, and song - Insights into Indian art of healing
Dr. Fabio Alberto Ramirez: Shamanic rituals of the aboriginal peoples of the Amazon
Jorge A. Kokopelli Guadarrama/Jorge Nopaltzin Guadarrama : Voyage to inner harmony: traditional Aztec dancing
6.30 pm - 7.10 - 4 workshops
Jorge A. Kokopelli Guadarrama/Jorge Nopaltzin Guadarrama: The Aztec way of healing
For centuries, Mexican indigenas have practiced the ritual to cleanse the energy body. The two healers, father and son, will explain "why we do this healing and which special place this ceremony has got to get rid of negative influence." According to Aztec view, energy from cosmos is used to "heal diseases, to give prayers and thanks to the ancestors or find answers to important questions". This ceremony is meant to enable the audience "to explore the spiritual path of knowledge and growth and to find inner peace and harmony."
http://www.jemanja.ch/index.php?id=00006.00034
Jemanja - School to Accompany in Death and Mourning
Jemanja GmbH [the German abbreviation for Ltd.]
[...]
8400 Winterthur
Their staff lists the Guadarramas:
"Jorge Nopaltzin Guadarrama
Born 1945 in Mexico, belongs to the ancient Aztec culture. He has practiced Aztec traditions, rituals and dance ceremonies for all his life. He received his knowledge from Teocally, a traditional Aztec school.
Jorge A. Kokopelli Guadarrama"
Another Swiss site by a lady offering her services as an animal therapist as well as a therapist for humans:
http://www.schmidli-claudia.ch/9237.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
Her c.v.:
"I, born 1970, grew up with dogs, cats, rabbits, geese, goats, sheep, ponies, cows, and many more animals (like two crows who have been living in the high pear trees for years already) on a small farm and have worked with animals for all my life as they have worked with me. From childhood on I learned much about healing plants which I gather myself when needed.
[...]
Since 2003, I work as a self-employed therapist for animals and humans."
Schmidli lists her creds startin in 1993, with trainings done in muscle therapy, Shiatsu, energy assesment with J. Cohn/USA etc.
"2004 Diploma as Shamanic Life Adviser II, AS
2006 Intensive Training / dipl. meditations - teacher (strength, staying power meditation) with Milton, VE
from 2007 Training with my Indian brother Kokopelli and his father Nopaltzin"
Another Swiss site:
www.imsonnenbuehl.com/info/kokopelli.pdf
They offer a workshop with 'Kokopelli' Guadarrama whom they describe as:
"ethnologist and anthropologist from the tradition of Aztec curanderos and he prefers to work with traditional rituals". They mention he founded the Nopalli Institute with his father in 2000.
The workshop is announced for "Aug 30/31" and will comprise "sweatlodge and private session: aura cleansing (smudging according to Aztec tradition and/or Ollin-Obsidian massage)".
www.ruecken-therapie.ch/JacquelineSeminare20070613c.pdf
Another ad for 'Ollin-Obsidian Massage', this time with a price tag:
"Ollin-Obsidian Massage
Jorge Kokopelli Guadarrama
Sat/sun Oct 6/7 - 9 am to 5 pm
Fee: Swiss Francs 290.00"
This is a German site by someone claiming to have taught by the Guadarramas and others. Her list of qualifications/teachers sounds rather 'impressive':
http://www.indianhealing.de/uebermich.html
"# Diplomain Indian Balance
# leech therapy
# Shiatsu and Lomo Lomi Nui
# Akupressur
# Aqua therapy and Aqua Fitness Instructor
# trained in Indian Healing and Atlantis Healing
# Channeling
# Contacts to Beyond
# Tarot
# at this point in time in training as an Atlantian magician
# Reincarnation therapy
# trained in animal communication
# trained at the medicine wheel and in chakra cleansing by Crow medicine man Grandfather LittleCrow and with the Aztecs Nopaltzin and Kokopelli - aura smudging
trained by the tribal leader of the Assiniboine L.L. Lewis, healing songs of the Assiniboine
and trained in sundance, with halfbreed Hunting Wolf of the Northern Cheyenne in Indian meditation"
The following is a Swiss portal usually listing commercial business:
http://www.hotfrog.ch/Firmen/Nopalli-Institut-zur-Verbreitung-der-aztekischen-Kultur
"Nopalli - Institut zur Verbreitung der aztekischen Kultur
Firmeneigentümer [company owner]
Schlössliweg 1
4114 Hofstetten SO
Solothurn
Tel: +41 79 708 09 67
Web: Nicht verfügbar [not available]
E-Mail: Nicht verfügbar [not available]
This is what they say about themselves
http://www.bpv.ch/content/texte/diverse-nopalli.html
"NOPALLI - Association for Aztec Culture
The Institute to Spread Aztec Culture, NOPALLI A.C. made it its task to show people in Europe some of their wonderful culture and with this they work against the loss of their ancient knowledge. It is recognized as a not-for-profit in Mexico, supporting Mexican children to give them a better future. The economical situation in Mexico unfortunately is so bad that many children have to do badly paid jobs in order to help support their families. This especially effects children of the so-called indigenous peoples whose parents receive especially bad wages. These parents cannot pay for school books, notebooks, for fares to school and the school uniforms. Therefore, the children stay at home and have to work when reaching kindergarten age. A good education would help these children to break out of the vicious circle of poverty and secure a better future for their families. We want to introduce our projects in short:
Building a school for streetkids
Everything started with this project. NOPALLI A.C., with donated money, was able to buy a site in Mexico City on which a school for streetkids is meant to be built now. In this school children will learn e.g. to create Indian crafts items, in order to offer them an additional possibility to find work later on. There are myriads of children in Mexico who live on the streets without their parents and who secure their survival with more or less legal ways. Often these children are not wanted at home, since the meagre income of the parents does not allow feeding another child. Thus they vegegate in the exhaust fumes of the capital city without any perspectives for a future. Once the school is finished, we can offer these children a home and an education. The new Mexican government under President Vicente Fox means to solve the problem of streetkids and has promised to support us. Unfortunately, there is not enough money, so we are grateful for donations.
Support of existing schools
The vast majority of schools in the vicinity of Mexico City are so-called 'escuelas rurales'. These rural schools are in an incredible state judged by European standards. Classes often take place outside, without desks, books, materials, a teacher's desk. Most of the children in our sponsorship programme are in such schools. Some representatives of these schools have approached us asking for financial or material aid to be able to buy at least what is most necessary.
If you are in a position to help, we will be glad to pass on our financial or material help. Your support goes to the projects only, since NOPALLI A.C. covers all administrational costs.
Contact via: nopalli@hotmail.com or www.nopalli.org"
[My note: the link to www.nopalli-org is broken]
Since this not-for-profit was founded eight years ago, certainly some physical result of their efforts should be around by now. However, as far as I can see, the site does not mention any school actually has been built nor do they publish any photos etc of such a school, nor of any other 'escuela rural' they support(ed).
As to their idea to teach the streetkids how to produce Indian craft to find a job, I do wonder whether the Guadarramas are probably planning to start selling such items....
It is also to be noted that, when googling Nopalli A.C., the results showing up are pretty scarce - and there is only one in Spanish language among them. Seems the 'Institute' is widely unknown in the country it was founded in (A.C. should be the Spanish legal form of a non-profit association) which says something about its activities and achievements.
This is again a Swiss site reporting an event organized by a school for the benefit of Nopalli A.C. in 2006:
http://angeladigiorgio.ch/14710.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
"Children Painting
This was an event done by children in Wetzikon for the benefit of Nopalli A.C. Institute, Mexico, who supports streetkids in Mexico City, builds a school, educates and aids children, especially indigenous children whose parents lack financial means. Kokopelli Guadarrama is an Aztec and studied anthropology and history in Mexico. Together with his father Nopaltzin, he founded the Nopalli group which intends to introduce the vast treasure of wisdom of Aztec culture to us Europeans (cf also www.nopalli.ch )
Together with the children, we painted pictures, did handicrafts, played and told stories.
On November 18, 2006, we opened the exhibition at Wetzikon hospital where these pictures are shown and get sold and auctioned. The entire money taken in was given to Institut Nopalli A.C.Mexico. Thanks to all who helped and made it possible!"
This is another report about an event organized by the Guadarramas in order to raise money for a school in Mexico, this time, however, the school is said to intend teaching ancient techniques of building, producing stuff, and on the customs of 'the Indians':
http://www.youthtoday.info/website/print/012002.htm
(The article with photos is about mid-page)
"Indians at Primary School in Hangard - by Daniel B....
June 8, 2002
The Indian group Nopalli visited Hangard Primary School. The group comes from Mexico originally and, here in Germany, visited Nopalli e.V., an association which demonstrates Indian rituals and customs and has its seat in the town of St. Wendel.
Students were shown dances and ritual clothes of the Indians [sic]. Background of this is a funds/donation rising of Nopalli group to build a school in Mexico where the ancient techniques of building, producing items, and the customs of the Indians can be learned anew [sic].
Further information please obtain from Nopalli e.V., tel. 06854 - [...]"
This Nopalli e.V. is no longer existant; there was no trace of it to be found online except for this article. The abbreviation e.V., as an aside, means the association is state-registered as a not-for-profit. For this, they have to meet certain criteria, plus their book-keeping is under some control.
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The following texts are to be found at http://www.nopalli.ch
The site apparently works with frames, so you can open the texts by clicking on the resp titles.
==> WORKSHOPS
"- Expression of Cosmologie
[This will open the section about Aztec Dance]
- Amuletts
[no text - section is "under construction"]
- Working with Leather
"We work with leather
- medicine pouch
[with a photo of a small leather pouch]
- leather robe
[no photo]
- Mocassins and Boots
[with a photo of a pair of mocs]
[There are several spelling errors in these few German words.]
- Rituals and Shamanic Objects
"under construction"
- Ollin Massage
[links to massage section under courses]
- Honey Massage
[ditto]"
SHAMANIC DRUM WORKSHOP
"Voice of the heart of Mother Earth! This is the loving name of the Aztec aboriginals for the sound of the medicine drum. These have been used for many centuries to create a bridge between stages of consciousness, a gate through which the prayers of the healers are led to creator.
Celebrate a weekend together with Kokopelli and build your own medicine drum. The drum will be made of natural materials only, and of the beautiful hide of a wild stag. Every person will build a drum and a drumstick covered with suede.
At the end of the workshop, every drum will be cleansed by Kokopelli himself. It is beautiful to beat the drum. To beat a drum which was created by your own hands is incredible, like a conversation with creator himself."
INDIAN CAMP
[==> Indianerlager]
TIPPI [sic] CAMP 08
An experience of nature of a special kind!
"Nopaltzin and Kokopelli, Indians from Mexico come to us to Switzerland for many years. They support a project in Mexico which children who do not have the financial means in their families, may go to school.
[The original text was written by a person of German language, albeit some sentences sound strange. I have tried to translate the text to keep this style.]
In the year 06 Nopaltzin and Koko, together with friends from Switzerland, organized a 5-day Tippi camp, in Hinterthurgau, the Tippi camp was a success with the help of the W... family, family G... B.... In 2008 we received a camp ground at the Alp - Koebelisberg - beautifully situated in Toggenburg.
Together with 30 children, a motivated team of assistants and the generous couple we spent a memorable, instructive tippi camp. Now we want to offer NEW to camp days. So that children who do not like to be away from home for too long have a possibility to get an insight into Indian culture. Indian jewelry, working with soap stones, training the sun dance ritual, do dream catchers etc. Listening to the drums at the camp fire, sleeping in a genuine tippi, will be memorable moments. Nopalzin [sic] / Kokopelli and the team of assistants are glad to spend 2 days with you.
[details re nearest M.D. to camp ground omitted]
Meeting point:
Wednesday / Thursday July 16 / 17
Train station Wil SG, 8.30 a.m.
Fees: 160,- Swiss Francs Food / Materials"
==> News
The following advertisements are put up in the News section:
"Ancient Aztec Rituals at Sonnenbuehl
with Kokopelli
August 29 - 31, 2008
Temazcalli - sweat lodge
The Temazcalli is a traditional pre-hispanic sauna known since centuries. The name is nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs and former trade language. Temaz means steam and calli means house - house of steam. It is dedicated to the goddess Temazcaltoci. The most widespread way of Temazcalli is a small room (round or rectangular), in the middle the hot stones lie. Through the very small opening which must be used to go in and out going back into the womb of mother earth is symbolized. In the Temazcalli one is to find one's balance through the four elements earth, fire, water, and air which has got off balance by various factors and can manifest in diseases or feeling unwell.
The Temazcalli was used to heal almost all diseases, since in indigenous view, all illness is caused by an imbalance.
Time: 6 - 8 hours, 85,- Swiss Francs
Private Sessions: Aura cleansing and Obsidian Massage
Aura Cleansing: The person to cleanse is placed barefoot on a piece of fur. The curandero reads the aura to see the cause of the problems. He circles the person with a feather and a bowl with burning Copal. Which help him to canalize the energy. More info at www.nopalli.ch
Time: 30 minutes / 75,- Swiss Francs
Ollin - Obsidian Massage: Obsidian has a curing effect, since it draws poison out of the body. The massage supported by Obsidian opens all pores so that the skin may breathe again. This massage technique is an efficient method to protect one's body from disease and negative influences.
Time: 90 minutes / 120,- Swiss Francs"
Location for the above mentioned events is: " Institute for Multilevel Communication", their website is: http://www.ImSonnenbuehl.com
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Greetings from Switzerland.
Hallo, My name is Jorge Kokopelli Guadarrama, I was reading about what you are writhing about and asking you about our association in Mexico, like it looks like we already meat, well, is really not necessary to ask and look so much about what you want to know about us, so I offer you to ask me all the information you need from us, I send you my address telephone number and internet address so you can better check for the info that you are looking for, like looks that you have nothing better to do like that, well just ask, so if you want to make it public please feel you free to, but only one think, if you accuse the institution about something that is not like you say, well wait to for a legal replay, Greetings.
J.Kokopelli G.
Schlössliweg 1
4114 Hofstetten.
Switzerland.
+41 76 44 30 197
kokopelliguadarrama@yahoo.com.mx
nopalli@hotmail.com
www.nopalli.ch
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This is the same text as in the e-mail I received on Thursday, July 9, 2008.
However, I would like to point out this mail was signed "Greetings Andrea" despite the claim it was Jorge Jr writing to me (emphasis added by me).
From: "kokopelliguadarrama" <kokopelliguadarrama@yahoo.com.mx>
Date: Donnerstag - 22:31:19
Greetings from Switzerland.
Hallo, My name is Jorge Kokopelli Guadarrama, I was reading about what you are writhing about and asking you about our association in Mexico, like it looks like we already meat, well, is really not necessary to ask and look so much about what you want to know about us, so I offer you to ask me all the information you need from us, I send you my address telephone number and internet address so you can better check for the info that you are looking for, like looks that you have nothing better to do like that, well just ask, I send a mail also to the other ones that are in the forum, so if you want to make it public please feel you free to, but only one think, if you accuse the institution about something that is not like you say, well wait to for a legal replay, Greetings Andrea.
J.Kokopelli G.
Schlössliweg 1
4114 Hofstetten.
Switzerland.
+41 76 44 30 197
kokopelliguadarrama@yahoo.com.mx
nopalli@hotmail.com
www.nopalli.ch
Andrea, you seem to have got your telephone number wrong - in this web advertisement, your phone no is quite different:
http://flyingeagle.peperonity.com/go/sites/mview/flyingeagle/10211142
More on '"kokopelli" nopaltzin'
"Workshops, seminars
Dates for workshops, seminars, dances, meditations.... teaching of indigenous culture and much more - if you're interested you can ask for more details and arrange appointments with Andrea, Tel: 0179 / 4731353. Nopaltzin (Aztec shaman) and Kokopelli (his son) will be glad to meet you. hasta
luego!"
Andrea, perhaps you and Jorge Jr should first work out who is who and who gets to use which e-mail address.
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Just looking on line what others about you say, well then, the telephon is my personal phon. :-)
Since Al started to publish hatemail today, I thought I'd let you participate
in an - errrrmm: conversation going on on one of the German language boards
on ndns.
The person started the thread using my first name for a title....
It is also quite apparent that she cannot see or accept what happened, and her
constant whining may even endanger the process started in the nation.
I post it here just to inform you that it's the same over here when frauds or
sellouts get exposed, their nation takes a decision, and some of those making
a profit are hit where it hurts....
The conversation in that forum goes on in the same style - N. even had it
explained to her what happened back at the rez, but nothing will impress or
even reach her.
Ingeborg
..........................................................
User: nanabuc
Date: 02 Jun. 2008 08:02
topic: @ Ingeborg
@ Ingeborg - was there any day in your life when you were/are content and
happy without causing problems for another person or picking a fight....
Every person have got their very own way 'to save the world' I haven't got to
understand it....
What you experienced must have been really bad that you must distract from you
and point out 'abuses' of other persons.
What a pity, it could be different...
greetings,
Nanabuc
guest: räuschper
Date: 08 Jun. 2008 23:42
RE: @ Ingeborg,
Ingeborg - isn't that the lady who wanted her photo taken with an Indian
dancer on a (hobbyist) powwow a few years ago?
guest: räuschper
09 Jun. 2008 17:18
RE: @ Ingeborg,
Nanabuc,
aaaahhhm - I was wondering who this lady Ingeborg is.
Hippy-style skirt and matching (untidy) hairdo, dark blonde, about 48 years?
Visibly horny for Indians? Does that fit?
user: nanabuc
09 Jun. 2008 17:37
RE: @ Ingeborg,
I don't know what Ingeborg looks like, I don't even know whether she really is
a woman....
I just know she puts her paws on every matter internet-wise where SHE sniffs
out an 'unjustice'....
And then does not find an end, when everybody else is already quiet, she must
add another something on top....
this is my experience with Ingeborg from this forum.
user: nanabuc
01 Jul. 2008 22:26
RE: @ Ingeborg,
Hi B...,
I don't care whether I disqualify myself and in whose eyes, and I published
this posting here because that person is reading this.
I think it's stooping way low when she posts stuff in Englis speaking forums
about people she doesn't know and who cannot contribute there.
I don't care at all who does what and why, as long as no lives are destroyed
with this.
And I think it's simply perverted when lives are being destroyed to save the
world. That's the same as leading a war for peace.
Nanabuc- just back from Montana, where the natives strangely enough are glad
to share their experience with persons from Europe.
user: b....
02 Jul. 2008 00:29
RE: @ Ingeborg
quote nanabuc:
I don't care at all who does what and why, as long as no lives are destroyed
with this.
do you mean to say that Ingeborg's mails destroy lives?
user: b.....
02 Jul. 2008 00:31
RE: @ Ingeborg
quote nanabuc:
I think it's stooping way low when she posts stuff in Englis speaking forums
about people she doesn't know and who cannot contribute there.
Who prevents contributions and why?
user: nanabuc
02 Jul. 2008 13:01
RE: @ Ingeborg
ahmmmmm, that's quite simple, B..., it's because of the language....
You know, not every person knows English well enough in order to contribute to
an English language forum, let alone get involved in a discussion.
Ingeborg's mails may be good and important, I don't want to argue about that,
but her posting - which were pointed out to me - are simply malicious.
greetings
Nana
user: b....
02 Jul. 2008 16:07
RE: @ Ingeborg
You have been to Montana, but don't speak English well enough to contribute,
but well enough to understand it was meant maliciously?
yeah, I understand.........
user: nanabuc
02 Jul. 2008 17:38
RE: @ Ingeborg
*loool* oh B..., can you imagine it's two different kettles of fish to speak a
language, to be able to ask questions directly, to have single words
explained during a talk etc or writing and reading a language?
Yes, I was in Montana and got along well there with the English I know it is
sufficient to communicate and I learned a lot - and I admit openly that it is
not sufficient to communicate in an English language forum.
If I wanted to do this, I'd have to do a language course first, I tried to
follow conversations with a dictionary in my hands there - I got three
children I haven't got enough time so that I can work through this even in an
initial stage let alone write a reply.
I printed the texts and a friend translated them, so I know what they are
about.
.... enough for an explanation? Did you understand the difference?
Nana
changed by nanabuc Jul 2, 2008, 18:09
guest: P.....
03 Jul. 2008 06:52
RE: @ Ingeborg,
I'd like to know what all this about the alleged 'destruction of lives' is
about. This sounds like corpses lying about..... Are you talking about
yourself? Since you speak about your knowledge of English and a lack of
possibilities to communicate, this sounds like it is your life allegedly
having been 'destroyed'. How's this possible?
user: b.....
04 Jul. 2008 00:58
RE: @ Ingeborg
I assumed somebody who had been selling ceremonies and had this criticized in
the web now sees his economic basis endangered....?
something like this Nana?
-
It's not unusual for someone of this forum to receive hatemail. Whoever backs these organizations do not like being looked at. So what's the point? This is simply taking a post from one list and puting it on another. It just amounts to someone complaining and using Ingeborg as their scapegoat. Again, what's the point?
-
Well, I guess I have to apologise for the way that I introduce me into the forum.
I apologise also for my bad English I try to do my best.
My name is Jorge Kokopelli Guadarrama, I born in Mèxico in 1975, I am a social antropologe and precedent from a institution calling Nopalli Instituto para la Difusiòn de la cultura Azteca. A.C. building in Mèxico city in the year 2000, the one that your forum is talking about, Now I live in Switzerland with my wife since tree years already.
Around too weeks ago a person that organise me since a couple of years call me and send me a link to a post in Yahoo the one I send it to you all, - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/406
Nopalli is an no profit institution created to:
a) La promoción y difusión en Mexico y en el extranjero de la cultura mexicana.
b) La difusión y fomento de la danza, música y canto de las culturas mexicanas.
c) La realización de eventos y ceremonias espirituales, conferencias, mesas redondas ante toda clase de instituciones publicas y privadas.
d) La realización e impartición de toda clase de talleres artesanales en las diversas áreas y técnicas del conocimiento.
e) La celebración de convenios y colaboraciones con todo tipo de instituciones culturales y sociales con fines de coadyuvar el proceso artístico y cultural de México en el extranjero.
Etc...etc...etc...
Sorry I cut not translate, but I belibe that you habe some one.
The since (A.C.) that is actually the question of Ingeborg means Civil Association, so a no profit institution- since 26 of November 2003 Nopalli is aloud to receive donations and give Deducible receipts of taxes in Mexico and in other countries.
That you fount so:
Diario oficial de la federación.
Inciso (L) Miércoles 26 de Noviembre del 2003
Segunda sección pagina 89
That I know you are also able to cheeked via Internet but I don’t have the address exactly of the link for this seit of government, you have to cheeked in the internet. Down to http://www.dof.gob.mx/
Around six years ago we were working in Neustad in Kaiserslautern, whit some one that proms us to help us with building a Nopalli Germany and together with the firma Globus donate a big donation for our project of the school that till now still not finish, with the sad experience that they only use us and profit with half a year work for our side, they tuck the money and cut the contact with us, since that happen we are carful with how we work and how, we have found grate people that hat help us to make it farder, but we still afraid for this all experience, so I apologise me for the way I contact you but in the part of the post that say
—(You are very welcome. If they call themselves that in Mexico, they had better have the papers to back it up, or they can go to jail. If they are doing it anywhere else, it is part of a pander to make themselves look that much more "mexicany".
I have three brothers-in-law who are Mexican lawyers, and I have worked for one of them on several different cases as a translator, so I know all about Mexican law.
Bryant
On Tue Mar 18 11:35 , aswad54 sent:
Am Dienstag, 18. März 2008 17:51 schrieb E Bryant Holman:
> Asociacion Civil - It is a non-profit group, like, for instance, a Lions
> Club chapter, when legally constituted, is an Asociacion Civil.
>
> A corporation, by contrast, is an AC de CV (Asociacion Civil de Cantidad
> Variable)
>
> So this would mean, ostensibly, that they have set up a legal entity in
> Mexico, in the nature of a club or other such group.
Thanks, Bryant!!!!)—
We have nothing to hide, if the information in my website is not enough is because I have no people that help me with the building of my website and also with the translations, is to expensive to pay that, so again, sorry because is not enough what you see, I was checking after a wile this forum seit, and personally I found it really interesting, and important work the one you do, is really shame to see how many people make only profit and abuse of they positions that they take, I will appreciate your critic and take it for good, if is only one person that say some think like the other ones in the other tams of frauds like – sexual abuse, financial profit and so on—please let us know and let me send my replay.
I congratulate you for your work Ingeborg and please, feel free to contact us, I hope that this miss understanding help to get to know us better J .
J.Kokopelli Guadarrama.
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This part of Jorge's posting made me curious:
Around six years ago we were working in Neustad in Kaiserslautern, whit some one that proms us to help us with building a Nopalli Germany and together with the firma Globus donate a big donation for our project of the school that till now still not finish, with the sad experience that they only use us and profit with half a year work for our side, they tuck the money and cut the contact with us, since that happen we are carful with how we work and how, we have found grate people that hat help us to make it farder, but we still afraid for this all experience, so I apologise me for the way I contact
you[...]
I have done some research about the company mentioned by Jorge, and I won't give you a link to their website, but to German wikipedia instead:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globus_(Supermarkt)
According to this wiki entry, Globus is a company with 22,000 employes and a turnover of € 4.2 billion in 2007. The company has been founded in 1828 (so one may call them well established with close to 200 years of existence), in the Southern parts of Germany, and their activities are still largely in the
Southern and Eastern regions of the country.
They operate 40 department stores in Germany, additionally another 50 stores selling building materials for the professional as well as DIY sector.
They also operate 9 shops selling electronic articles.
Apart from their activities in Germany, they run another 11 department stores in the Czech Republic and 2 in Russia.
Here's a link to the store at Neustadt Jorge mentioned, the site has a photo:
http://www.globus-neustadt.de/de/start.htm
We are definitely *not* speaking about some backyard peddlar, or a badly managed third class outfit like Serena in Cologne who ripped off ndn artists and dancers last year. I assume Jorge means to hint at Serena's deplorable actions when he describes their contacts to Globus in a way that makes us
read about his bad, bad experience with tears in our eyes.
Companies of this size will have an open ear for projects in need of a donation, as this may come in handy re tax reductions - the very huge BUT is: they mean business and they want to be very certain their money will finance a worthy project. So apparently Globus did not take anyone else's money and run, as Jorge implies in his above contribution, but they rather took *their* money and ran instead of financing whatever project Jorge Jr presented to them. I assume Globus might be very interested in seeing how Jorge describes them here in this thread.
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Jorge, if it's easier for you, you can write either myself or Bryant, and we will translate for you. Both of us speak Spanish.
The translation of the description of that school doesn't help Jorge's case. Basically it says they are there to teach Aztec/Mexica ways to foreigners.
The name is very interesting. For those who aren't familar with Latin American naming:
You usually receive two last names, your father's followed by your mother's, and only one first name, no middle name. So Jorge's father was supposedly named Kokopelli. I find it hard to believe that Nahuas of Mexico use the name of a Hopi sacred figure for a last name. The Hopi and Nahua cultures are not related.
Much more likely is that Jorge is from middle or upper class background. It's been a trend for the past thirty years for the middle and upper class people in Mexico to only take the father's last name, and to also have a middle or first name which is or sounds Indian to them, ie there was a candidate for president of Mexico named Cuahtemoc Cardenas, named after the last Aztec leader.
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Hello to every one, well about the work with Globus I try to say it better, we were not working with them directly, we did with this persons that say that wanted us to help, I don’t want to give names but well if you find it needed, she calls Kerstin Umlaut ore so, and she together with other people make a institution true this one they organises the work and we needed to go almost every weekend to make workshops and dances with children’s and for the people, in this shop of globus, well I guess that was an apartment that was organising that, so they geth pay and we not.
About my name, I did not say that “Kokopeli??? is an Aztek name, like a people is calling also in they own country’s with foreigners names, my mother wanted always to have a Kokopelli, so they call me so, my civil name is Jorge Alberto Guadarrama Alonso, in México we can have to ore tree names and beside our family names.
And tell me were is writhing on that the school is to learn Aztec ore Mexica, first all the languish is “Nahuatl??? say to Bryant, well I tough he is from Mexico. A very Mexican name don’t you think? Like my, well, so is, tell him please if he want a copy of the statutes from Nopalli, he is very welcome to ask me for them, and that please send me an email, so I am able to send a copy. Also if he needs the number of folium ore the number of “Notaries??? were we register the institute no problem. Kokopelliguadarrama@yahoo.com.mx nopalli@hotmail.com
I wish you all a nice week, and I try to answer you multiple questions when I can, today I fly back to Switzerland so I am busy this days but so soon I can sit to check the post I write you back.
Have a nice day. Kokopelli.
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Al - Cuauhtemoc Cardenas is no spring chicken. His Daddy, Lazaro Cardenas, named him that some 65 to 70 years ago. Cuauhtemoc was the last Aztec emperor, and his legacy has been greatly politicized and it still is. There are other Aztec names which are common and always have been - like Xochitl, for instance. This should not be assumed to have anything to do with the modern trend to name children Aztec sounding names - which is not all that trendy in Mexico, actually. It is what I would call "slightly trendy".
These people simply do not mention their mothers last names, which would not be the same. They put their little made-up names in there in the position wherein their father's surname would appear normally, but that is not what they intended to do, I don't think.
That name Nopaltzin seems like a made-up name, but actually it is not an uncommon name for boys, apparantly (google it and see).
Indianism in Mexico went through three historical periods. The first was when it became a part of Jacobin propaganda designed to undo the power of the Spanish crown in Mexico, with a view to creating conditions for a popular uprising. For instance, this is where the "Black Legend of Malinche" originated. I strongly recommend that people read "La Malinche in Mexican Literature", because this book really places this important topic in a very clear light.
Modern newagerism definitely goes back to that period, as explained in another important book that I always try and recommend when I can, "Goddess Unmasked". The glorification of Cuauhtemoc and the demonizing of La Malinche were myths that were generated by writers who draped their characters over the same sort of trappings that were being employed to mystify everyone from the Druids to the characters of the Ring Cycle.
The next infusion of this sort of thought was done by Diego Rivera and his various colleagues during the 1920's and 30's. Building on the paradigms set up by the Mexican Jacobins of the early 19th century, they greatly expanded all of this and set the stage for the eventual third stage, which is the sort of thing you see today, which one might point to the likes of Tim Leary and Carlos Castaneda as being the chief early indstigators - who exploited the hapless Indian curandera Maria Sabina and her people in order to try and place their imprimatur on LSD use and the like. This has expanded into the mess we have today.
In all cases, this is never much different than the sort of things people do with all of this phony "pipe carrier" stuff, and smudge sticks, dream catchers, workshops, sweats, etc. etc. that so many non-Indians find so intriguing and that newagers find so profitable, in fact.
I suppose the only distinctions would be that most Mexicans do, indeed, have lots of Indian blood - albeit they are probably, in the main, descendants of dozens of different tribes with which they have not got a clue as to which ones they might be - and that there is a lot of politicization of all of this which makes it into something of a delicate matter, I suppose, in that if one criticizes some of these people for generating so much nonsense, they way they confabulate it with immigration issues and other popular themes, one can get tarred as another Lou Dobbs for opposing some of the more demagogic elements over anything!
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"And tell me were is writhing on that the school is to learn Aztec ore Mexica, first all the languish is “Nahuatl??? say to Bryant, well I tough he is from Mexico. A very Mexican name don’t you think? Like my, well, so is, tell him please if he want a copy of the statutes from Nopalli, he is very welcome to ask me for them, and that please send me an email, so I am able to send a copy. Also if he needs the number of folium ore the number of “Notaries??? were we register the institute no problem. Kokopelliguadarrama@yahoo.com.mx nopalli@hotmail.com"
I know that the Aztec language is Nahuatl. Everyone knows that. No one needs a lecture on that. We are not children here. Did I ever say I was Mexican? Is this the best you can do? You actually want people to take you seriously and you act like that? No wonder Globus ran you off!
If you really want me to investigate what you have in the DF, I will. I don't care about talking to some notario publico. I am talking about sending someone around to see what your "school" down there looks like. You got any pics, reports, anything official you want to show us now? Or maybe you would just like to describe it to us. As much money as you have raked in over the years pushing your 'cause' all over Europe - it should be quite impressive by now!
Bryant
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Well, I really wondering was is talking heir about, what hat to do Mr, Cuatemoc Cardenas in all this? I am in the best open way to clear your questions, but well see like you only like to looking for problems and teasing other people, you know, is so easy to destroy some think, but no every body is building and cooperate, but how I see that you are so interesting to find out the true!!!! So well, is not necessary to give you the address were the project is you can find it your self, and are the most welcome to help with the project, now I let you because I really am busy, so have a nice time and well, you have my number email and all, I hope that just like you behave, and not only with us, you also support the needed of the ones that are the only one that pay for that, the children’s and people that need the help.
I really have no idea what you for picture have form us, so like I see my English is not enough to answer your questions and maybe I miss understand more that I understand, just like the begin from all this, well, I her from you, sure I will hear form you.
Kokopelli.
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Mire Ud. Sr. Kokopelli, ya que se esta quejando tanto de que batallas mucho para poder tratar con nosotros en ingles, pues yo le voy a explicar muy bien en tu propia idioma, de que se trata el asunto que hemos discutido aqui ultimamente. Se trata del hecho de que ustedes habran dicho de que por ahi en el DF tienen una escuela para los niños inditos de la calle donde les propocione una educacion y quien sabe que mas cosas que les den - no se si tambien les regalen petate y frijolitos on no. Entonces, se ha de imaginar uno de que por ahi habra un parte donde se pudiera acudir uno para poder ver con sus propios ojos de que consiste esta mentada escuelita. no? O me equivoco?
Aun existe la escuelita por alli en un parte en el DF on no existe. no? Este es la cuestion. no? Si ustedes no estan dando atole con el dedo - no solamente a nosotros pero mas bien a las personas ahi en Europa donde opera su negocio, o sea los que les han proporcionado apoyo$ - con mucho gusto habras ofrecido algo concreto para poder destacar todas las maravillas de su mentada escuelita en vez de aparecerse de modo que mas bien esten tratando de esconder algo por ahi. Entonces, hazme me un favor y de una vez dime donde esta ubicada la escuela esa para que yo si quisiera, podria mandar, por ejemplo, un reportero o algo hasta alla para intrevistarse con la tal Lic. Violeta o quienesquiera que se encontrara por ahi. Seria muy dificil eso? Se me hace que si estuviera Ud. tan orgulloso de sus logros en ese ramo de la educacion de los del abajo, seria para Ud. un gran honor tener la oportunidad en cualquier momento de poder destacar todo lo que tienen por ahi para enseñarlo a todos sus patrocinadores y a la vez los que le critiquen tanto a Ud. no? Con ese actuacion se acaban los rumores. Asi mi imagino yo. Ud no?
Si no te cayo el veinti por la discusion sobre Cuauhtemochas, eso no tiene que ver y no me voy a molestar en explicarte de que se trata. Vamos a olvidar las payasadas y tratar con el mero asunto por lo pronto. Si quieren sacar la garra despues, pues ya veremos. Mientras tanto, dinos algo un poquito mas concreto sobre la mencionada escuelita alli en la ciudad de Mexico.
Si quieres tratar de que consiste la mentada asociacion civil tuya y que hace, eso tambien me interesa, pero por lo pronto, yo quiero ver la escuela. A ver.
Y si desgraciadamente la señora esta contestando por lo pronto y no me entienda, le voy a pedir al Ingeborg que me lo traduce. ;)
Bryant
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Bueno eso es distinto, no tengo ningún problema con que se haga ni publique algún reportaje acerca de lo del proyecto Tonantzin Tonatiu, así que le comento como es que nació la idea de esto y como es que se apoya.
Haciendo conciencia del problema social que existe en nuestro país, nosotros nos dimos a la tarea de construir una escuela con el fin de enseñar a niños indígenas y de la calle a aprender algún oficio sencillo y educación básica, para que puedan integrarse y desenvolverse mejor en nuestra sociedad en un futuro dado, ya que creemos que si podemos lograr un cambio positivo a futuro debemos de comenzar por los jóvenes, la escuela que esta ubicada al sur del Distrito Federal, en la delegación de ??lvaro Obregón, y lo que se ha construido ha sido solo con nuestro esfuerzo.
Desde hace varios años nos hemos dado a la tarea de conseguir apoyo económico de alguna compañía o institución en México o en el extranjero, (lo cual es en si su mayor interés) en fin, de algún modo el nuestro también, ya que con un buen donativo podríamos acabar de construir este lujar y poder empezar a trabajar con el proyecto.
Hemos tocado varias puertas al igual que muchas Asociaciones Civiles, tratando de conseguir algún apoyo económico, al igual de haber enviado varias cartas mandadas a nuestras autoridades comenzando con el señor Presidente Ernesto Zedillo. El señor Presidente Vicente Fox, ante otras muchas secretarias, de los cuales solo hemos recibido su apoyo moral y espiritual, aplaudiendo nuestro proyecto y deseándonos el mejor de los éxitos a futuro con el logro de este, no siendo posible apoyarnos de una manera económica, (si desean ver las cartas y todo el historial lo tendrá que hacer a trabes de este reportero o el que usted mande a Controlar a el D.F.)
Bueno, querido Bryant, nunca hemos dicho que tenemos una mentada escuelita!!! Como tu la llamas, esta se encuentra en construcción! Nunca hemos dicho que esta funcionando! No se de donde sacas esto, Esto es un proyecto nuestro, es algo que consideramos seria de ayuda a nuestro México, ni tampoco lo estamos construyendo de donativos, sí, claro que pido ayuda, las cosas irían mas rápido, pero lo que esta construido es solo de lo que hemos logrado de nuestro esfuerzo. Solo que estamos en construcción de ella, por lo de mandar a alguien a Controlarlo, no hay problema, pero entienda usted que no puedo proporcionarle así como así mis documentos por este medio, así que vamos a tener que organizarnos, para poderle mostrar todo esto que le estoy comentando, así que usted se vuelve también el medio por el cual se verificaran y se aclarara esta situación tan incomoda para todos, le mando un par de fotos, para que vean y comprueben que es la misma construcción, así que bueno le proporciono el teléfono por vía correo electrónico para que se comuniquen a México y se organicen las cosas,
Por supuesto que para nosotros seria muy bueno poder mostrarlo de esta manera ya que la veracidad de esto nos dará una mejor imagen, ya que por algo estamos escribiéndonos e intercambiando correos los cuales hubieran sido menos sarcásticos si nuestro contacto hubiera sido distinto.
Saludos Kokopelli.
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Can we have those last two posts translated into English please?
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Estimado Sr. Kokopelli,
Pues, ha sido mucho mejor la communicacion con respecto a la cuestion de la amabilidad y las buenas costumbres. A mi no me gusta tampoco que haya tanto sarcasmo, pero no estoy para andar de dejado tampoco. Pero una vez que me muestran la buena voluntad, pues yo me detengo y mi afan es dejar todo el rencor a favor de tratos mas amistosos. Sin embargo, nosotros tenemos ciertos fines en lo que pretendemos hacer, y se me hace que todo mundo ya sabe de que se tratan nuestras metas.
Pues, al leer su cuento, parece que habran actuado de manera muy altruistica y se me figura mucho la vida de Diego Rivera, quien, segun sus esposa Frida Kahlo, hizo todo lo que hizo por el bien de los indios. Segun la Kahlo, aunque el invento muchas mentiras y hizo un friego de travesuras, todo eso tenia el fin de anfatizar por algun medio o algo, la condicion de los de mas abajo en Mexico, estos siendo las mujeres inditas y sus pobres niños. No se exactament en que se concretizo estos sentimentos, o, mas bien, que, exactamente, hizo el para ellos, pero su querida esposa indico de que toda su carrera fue dirigida por el deseo de mejorar la condicion de esta pobre gente.
De todas maneras, no entiendo algunas cosas aqui, y me interesa entenderlos un poquito mas ya que el reportero con quien me estoy comunicando tiene algunas preguntas que para mi llaman mucho la atencion, ya que a mi no se me ocurrio que parece que haya algunas contradicciones que este señor espera que yo las resuelva si quisiera yo que el se enterre en el asunto. Son medio canijos en veces esos mentados reporteritos. Se ha fijado Ud? Quieren que uno hace todo al trabajo y ellos nomas reciben las porras.
Resulta que hay muchas paginas de internet redactados en idiomas europeas que, por mi parte, no las entiendo ni papa - como dicen aqui en Ojinaga (la gente es muy folklorico para hablar). Afortunadamente, nosotros tenemos activistas en varios paises en Europa quienes nos hace el favor de traducir los textos de vez en cuando. Yo no quiero fanfarronear tanto y fingir que sepa mas que realmente se de el uso de castellano, porque en veces me encuentro completamente perdido y por eso cuento con mi esposo o mi hijo o cualqueir otro hispanoparlante de esos de hueso azul. Conozco varios reporteros y estos so buenisimos para sacarme de esos incidentes en los cuales batallo tanto para traducir cosas de las cuales no estoy muy seguro cual sera su mero significado.
Aqui le voy an enseñar un ejemplo. Esto es lo que dijo Ud:
"nunca hemos dicho que tenemos una mentada escuelita!!! Como tu la llamas, esta se encuentra en construcción! Nunca hemos dicho que esta funcionando! No se de donde sacas esto, Esto es un proyecto nuestro, es algo que consideramos seria de ayuda a nuestro México, ni tampoco lo estamos construyendo de donativos, sí, claro que pido ayuda, las cosas irían mas rápido, pero lo que esta construido es solo de lo que hemos logrado de nuestro esfuerzo. Solo que estamos en construcción de ella,"
Bueno, si lo estoy entiendo bien, Ud. esta diciendo de que no hayan aplicado ningun donativo al construir su edificio ahi, a no esta funccionando la escuela tampoco. Entendi bien? Eso es lo que Ud. esta diciendo claramente. No? Si yo lo entendi mal, hagame Ud. el favor de clarificarlo de una vez, porque a eso brota algunas contracicciones, aparentamente, segun lo que veo yo. O sea, eso lo que haya dicho Ud. no corresponde muy bien con algunos declaraciones que Uds. hayan publicado en otras idiomas en las mencionadas paginas del internet. Si me explico? Yo no dudo que ando mal yo por haber malentendido algo, pero a mi me gustaria si alguien fuera a explicarme an que estoy fallando para llegar a la conclusion de que existe esta contradiccion.
Aqui tengo el texto de unas de esas pagina europeos traducido al ingles, y enseguda la version original escrito el aleman:
The traditional Aztec dance group Nopalli and their shaman come from Mexico.
They perform in Europe in order to show the traditional side of their
culture. The group wears special outfits, of which especially the
[verentooien] are striking. They play a huge drum and a handdrum. Further
they made use of an Aztec flute during their ceremonial dances. The intake
from the performnces of Nopalli dance group is for the benefit of their tribe
in Mexico and goes to/is donated [waar besteed] to various projects, of which
one is a little school which they are building themselves for the
streetchildren of Miexico-City!
De traditionele Azteekse dansgroep Nopalli en hun Sjamaan
komen uit Mexico. Zij treden op in Europa om de traditionele
kant van hun cultuur te laten zien. De groep gaat gekleed in
bijzondere outfits, waarbij vooral de verentooien heel opval-
lend zijn. Ze begeleiden zichzelf op zowel een grote drum als
een handdrum.Verder gebruiken zij bij hun ceremonie dansen
ook een Azteekse fluit. De opbrengst van de optredens van de
dansgroep Nopalli komt ten goede aan hun stam in Mexico, en
wordt besteed aan verschillende projecten waarvan eentje een
schooltje is dat zijzelf aan het bouwen zijn voor de straat-
kinderen van Mexico-city!"
Here is another, and I will only include part of the text:
They come to Europe because they have got an institute for spreading Aztec
culture in Mexico, and the moneys raised here in Europe will go to various
projects of which one is a little school which they are building themselves
for the street children of Mexico-City
Bueno, voy a traducir lo de arriba:
EL grupo original de danzantes aztecas Nopalli y sus chaman vienen desde Mexico. Ellos bailan en Europa para alcanzar destacar el lado tradicional de su cultura. El grupo usa trajes especiales, de los quales los [palabra en aleman que no se tradujo] son impresionantes. Tocan un tambor grandisimo y otro de mano. Ademas usaron la flauta azteca durante los bailes tradicionales. Lo que recauden por su presentaciones del grupo de danza Nopalli es para el beneficio de la tribu en Mexico y esta usado como donativos para los varios de los cuales uno es una pequeña escuela ["schooltje" significa "escuelita"] que ellos mismos estan constuyendo para los niños de la calla de la ciudad de Mexico
Eso tiene la version orignal in aleman, una traduccion al ingles, y la traduccion al ingles por parte de un servidor.
Aqui esta la otra:
Ellos vienen a Europa porque tienen un instituto para la difusion de la cultura azteca en Mexico, y el dinero recaudado aqui en Europa se entregara a varios proyectos de los cuales uno de ellos es una pequeña escuela [o se puede traducir como "escuelita"] que estan constuyendo para los niños de la calle de la ciudad de Mexico.
Entonces, como le dije a Ud., mi querido Sr. Kokopelli, para mi y para muchos demas, parece que existe una contradiccion en eso, pero me imagino que no es nada que Ud. podra explicar con facilidad.
Entonces, con mucha anticipacion yo espero su repuesta, y yo por mi parte quedo siendo sintiendo muy agradecido que haya Ud. tomado la molestia de contestar a mis preguntas sobre estos temas.
Saludos
Bryant
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Here is a translation of the first post in Spanish:
Look, Mr. Kokopelli, since you are complaining so much that you
struggle a lot with trying to deal with us in English, then I will
explain things very well for you in your own language just what it is
we have discussed here lately. It has to do with the fact that you all
have said that somewhere in the DF [Mexico City] you have a school for
Indian street children where you give them an education and who knows
what else they are given - I don't know if they get some beans and a
sleeping mat or not. Therefor one would imagine that there is some
place one might go to see with ones own eyes just what this little
school consists of, right? Or am I mistaken?
Either the school exists or it doesn't - right? That is the question -
right? If you all are not just putting people on - not just ourselves
but the people in Europe where your business operates, that is, those
who have given you finance$ - with great pleasure you would have
offered something concrete in order to show off all of the wonders of
your well-known school instead of appearing as if you were trying to
hide something there. So, do me a favor and just tell me where the
school is located so that I, if I wanted to, could send, for example,
a reporter or something over there to interview Licenciada Violeta or
whomever might be there. Would that be very difficult? It seems to me
that if you were so proud of your achievements in the education of
"those from below" for you it would seem a grand honor to have in any
given moment the ability to extoll all that you have there that you
might show to all of your sponsors and to those who criticize you so
much. Right? With this sort of thing, all rumors cease. That is how I
see it. Do you not?
If you did not get the point about the discussion of Cuauhtemoc
Cardenas, this has little to do with anything, so I am not going to
bother explaining. Let us forget about all of the clownishness and
deal with the actual matters of importance. If you want to have it out
later, we will see about all that.
If you want to talk about what your non-profit corporation [AC]
consists of and what they do, I am interested in that, but for now, I
just want to see that school. Let's have it.
And if, unfortunately, the woman [that German speaking person] is
answering [these posts] and does not understand me, I will ask
Ingeborg to translate.
Bryant
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And here is a translation of the second post:
Okay that's different, I have no problem with anyone writing or publishing a story about the Tonantzin Tonatiu project, so I will comment on how the idea came about and how it is has been helped along.
Taking account the social problem that exists in our country, we took in on ourselves the building of a school with the purpose of teaching inigenous street children some job skills and a basic education, so that they could become integrated into our society in the future, as we believe that if we can make a positive change in the future we must start with the young. The school is located in the south of the Federal District, in the Delegacion Alvaro Ogregon, and it has been built with our efforts only.
As oif some years back we have taken on the task of getting economic aid from some company or institution in Mexico and outside of the country, (this is in their best interests), well, it is in ours too, now that with a good donation we finish buliding this place and begin to work with the project.
We have knocked on many doors and also of many non-profits, trying to get some economic aid, and have sent lots of letters to our authorities beginning with President Ernesto Zedillo. President Vicente Foz, before a lot of secretaries [he probably means heads of government ministries], of whom we have only recieved moral and spiritual support, applauding our project and wishing us the greatest of success in the future with the achievements of this, not being possible to help us financially, (if you all want to see the letters and all of the historial documentaion you will have to do it through this reporter of whomever you send to look into it in the DF).
Okay, my dear Bryant, we have never said that we have a "mentada escuelita" [using my phrase - a "famous little school" roughly translated]!!! As you call it, this is still under construction. We have never said that it was functioning. I don't know where you got that, This is a project of ours, it is something that we consider will be a help to our Mexico, nor are we building it with donations. Of course we ask for help, things would go faster, but what is built so far is only what we have achieved with out our efforts. We are only now engaged in the construction of it, so that if one wanted to send someone by to look into it, there is no problem, but understand that I cannot give you any more documents by way of such a medium as this, sicne we are going to have to organize ourselves so as to be able to to show all of this which I am relating, so that even you might become the medium through which we be verified and the situation be clarified which is so discomforting for all, I send you a few photos, so that you can see them and and prove for yourselves that that is is the same contruction, and I will send you the telephone in Mexico where you can communicate with Mexico and organize things.
Of course, for us it would be very good to be able to demostrate in this manner since the veracity of this would give us a better image, since for some reason we are writing and exchanging letters which might have been less sarcastic if our contact would have been different.
Yours truly,
Kokopelli
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Thanks Bryant. So the school does not exist. No documentation, photos, or anything else have been forthcoming which even suggest that it might one day exist.
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Barnaby, we can not say that for certain, but we have not seen anything really credible, other that photos from some job site where they were building one of those typical Mexican cinder block structures. What we are wondering about now is how these latest declarations about the school contrast to the statements made on various websites. But I am also interested in the claims that Mr. Kokopelli studied anthropology, because their descriptions of Aztec culture do not square with the conventional wisdom at all. Will they dismiss the findings of historians and anthropologists out of hand and claim to have better sources? That is one typical newage response - the one favored by Goddess advocates who dismiss conventional archaeologists as misogynist men and therefor all liars. In the same way, these people might try the race card and claim that other versions besides their own are fabrications of the racist oppressor, who armed a vast conspiracy that only they have the tools for uncovering, etc etc.
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Sr. Kokopelli,
Ya que no hemos visto nigun comunicacion departe de Ud. le quiero avisar que el reportero alli en Mexico esta listo para hablar con las personas que tienen alli en la ciudad de Mexico para recibir gente que buscan su asociacion etc.
Tambien les vamos a intentar comunicarles por otros medios - por los varios direcciones de correos electronicos que tienen en el internet, y tambien, a lo mejor, por telefono. Me imagino ya que Ud. se encuentra en europa conduciendo uno de los encuentros que se organicen por ahi, y la persona con quien tenemos que acudir en el DF sera la Lic. Violeta Guardarrama. Esperemos que ella, o quienes esten de cargo de estos asuntos, podria acompañar nuestro amigo el reportero al local donde esten constuyendo el plantel de la mencionada escuela.
Atte;
Bryant
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Translation for the "spanishly challenged":
Mr. Kokopelli,
Since we have not seen any communications from you I would like to advise you that the reporter there in mexico is ready to speak with the persons there in Mexico City who might receive people who are looking for your association etc.
We are also going ot try and contact you through other avenues - through the various e-mail accounts that you have on the internet, and also, most likely, by telephone. I imagine that you are right now in Europe conducting one of the encounters of your organization there, and that the person there in Mexico we would have to see is Lic. Violeta Guardarrama. We hope that she, or whoever is in charge of these matters, might be able to accompany our friend the reporter over to the location where they are building your school.
Yours truly,
Bryant
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Que tal Bryant, bueno, disculpas por mi retraso, no siempre se puede estar sentado detrás de la computadora, pero ya estoy de vuelta en Suiza así, que bueno, no deseo hacer esto mas grande ni mas complicado, yo me he prestado de la manera mas atenta a resolver sus dudas, que realmente no entiendo si en verdad tiene todo esto algún fin, si yo me he intrometido en su foro, es porque no me gusta que se hablen de cosas que no son, ya por falta de información o por algún mal entendido, en fin.
Como ya le havia comentado anteriormente, la señora Violeta Guadarrama, ya esta enterada de el asunto y solo espera a que se comuniquen con ella, le vuelvo a proporcionar su numero de celular, ella y mis abogados estarán encantados de proporcionarle a su compañero reportero toda la información que necesitan para su enriquecer su investigación.
Tel. 044 55 18 49 35 46
Yo no sé si esto le paso a don Martín o a doña Patricia Zacarias, pero en fin, usted como estudioso de las costumbres entre los curanderos sabrá mejor. Siendo al parecer estadounidense, se ve que esta bien enterado de cómo deben de ser las cosas.
Disculpen que con este correo me despida de ustedes, pero no deseo seguir invistiendo mi valioso tiempo en esta discusión, ya les proporcione lo que necesitan y si alguien desea algo mas, ya tienen mi dirección, teléfono, correo electrónico etc.
Acerca de lo que en otras paginas de Internet ponen, fechas y demás que no coinciden, me disculpo en su nombre ya que muchos de los organizadores mezclan la información que ponen en la red, ya sea en español, ingles u Holandés.
Es difícil controlar todo lo que en la red se pone, ya que son muchos los lugares y las personas que nos organizan.
Dentro de todo me interesa su trabajo sobre todo con nuestras tradiciones, así que si usted esta de acuerdo me gustaría platicarlo cara a cara, y visitarlo en Ojinaga para que terminemos esta discusión, yo de igual manera tengo que viajar a Chihuahua por material para mis limpias.
Eso es todo mi querido Lalo y hasta pronto, gracias por su interés.
Kokopelli.
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@all of you
I see that this topic is more or less allready closed but i must react to all of this:
For your information: I have been to mexico city, I have seen the building of the school, I have whitnessed the families who are given support and clothing by Kokopelli, I have whitnessed them work for several years (2000-2003) and not ever have I seen that they where harming anyone, yes I have seen that this is not as modern and smooth as we are used to in Europe, but is that really harmful?
And then at last: if you have yourself a clean mind and spirit why do you have to focus on dirt????
Sincerely yours, SanneRosa