Author Topic: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp  (Read 28930 times)

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 01:29:03 pm »
This was posted in a German language forum yesterday. Since Al does not read the German
forum but has been addressed in the contribution written by an anonymous 'guest' - hi libellule -,
here's the post as a quote:

RE: Sonnentanzhäuptling-was soll das? , 18 Feb. 2008 22:21

QUOTE from a U.S. web page ...

quote:Originally posted by DrAlCarroll

A German supporter of NAFPS translated the websites. Seems these practices
started when Benjamin Cloud left his Crow wife for a Euro woman. There‘s also
evidence that he trained Austrians who now claim they have the right to do
ceremony and are Crow warriors. So it‘s more serious than just playing NDN
for a weekend.

All of this in more detail at

Dr Carroll

I took a peek at your website. I was overwhelmed by the amount of hatred going
on over there. I was also disappointed to see that your website has no real
NDN issues on the log. It‘s more of a personal vendetta you have with several
of your members where you go back and forth, personally attacking one

I am all for freedom of speech, but, your place takes things a bit to the
edge, border lining on criminal activity. I asked you in an earlier thread
what your site was all about and you never got back to me. Now I know why. I
can see you going after European frauds as you call them, but, please leave
NDN‘s here in the states off your hangman‘s noose.

oh and Ingeborg, whilst reading the german forum, luckily my german is good
enough to understand that you and some other people had your share of insulting other
people in a very rude way urself ...

Probably your command of both English and German may be wanting, since the accusations
you come up with don't hold water: NAFPS members are not attacking each other personally
at NAFPS like you described above, and neither do members of the German list engage in
foul language on a regular basis. As a hint: the by far larger part of unpleasant language in
the German forums is used by nuagers and/or hobbyists miffed at criticism, and this is in no
way different from what happens at NAFPS.

You'd be hard pressed to find as much as one contribution in which I insulted someone, much
less in a very rude way.
It is also quite against the facts to accuse me of 'mak[ing] it sound' like Cloud asks for money -
I merely translated what was published on several websites. However, I suspect there is an
agenda behind your words which goes beyond shooting the messenger for a translation.

Your postings in both forums do not quite deal with facts, you seem to be interested in
accusations no matter whether these are appropriate or not.

Oh and libel, you assume that NAFPS has 'no real NDN issues on the log' - with NAFPS
membership being predominantly ndn, this sounds funny and makes one wonder what
passes as 'real' ndn issues in your opinion.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2008, 01:38:06 pm »
The wording of that attack post in the German forum is extremely close to some longtime opponents of NAFPS, namely John Lekay and John Martin. If they did not get a German speaker to post that, then more than likely a very naive German person or Nuage supporter fell for Lekay and Martin's libel and lies and is repeating it word for word. Ironic that our newly joined member has the word libel in their name, yet makes the bizarre claims of being disinterested. Obviously "libel" is going to a lot of trouble to track us because he/she finds us a threat to her core beliefs.

Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2008, 01:47:55 pm »
Me and the person who posted at are getting abused, called names, our intelligence is being highly questioned

just saying that both sides were not very nice at times ... I think its not necessary to start some kind of translating everything here, wouldn't see why ...

with the rest of what ur writing I have no idea what u mean ...
I wrote I just stumbled across this side here, I am neither a hobbyist nor doing seminars or something like that.
Ok, if u say u didn't want to make it sound that he was asking for money I have no reason to not believe you. I am sorry if this was a false accusation and I guess I was drawing conclusions to early.

I think I remember that I have met Ben once I was visiting family in Germany, but I am not sure about that. I will ask about that.
Just wondering Ingeborg why u were posting in this section here?
Any bad experiences with Benjamin Cloud or just to find out wether he is doing something inappropriate?

Sorry again, I didn't mean to insult you with wrong accustions

Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2008, 01:51:18 pm »
sorry educateindian ... libellule is french ... i don't no what u mean ... its my second name ...

and i don't see why you are a threat to my core believe?
can u explain that to me?

Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2008, 01:51:56 pm »
ups, forgot the d in ur name ... was not on purpose just too fast tiping

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2008, 01:58:59 pm »
It would really help if you would bother to read before making lots of accusations. Ingeborg posted a translation of Cloud's website because I asked her to, and that's it.

And making three posts where one would do, and posting your intro in the thread instead of in the introductions section. That's close to trolling.

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2008, 03:05:42 pm »


Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2008, 03:12:53 pm »
hey barnaby ...

like ur kind of humour ... who is the cat and who is the fish ;)


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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2008, 05:16:46 pm »
Gosh, libellule, that's a tough one.  But I teach college courses, so let me see if I can parse it for you.

Here we see a fish.  It originally lived free in a large body of water, but recently its territory has been reduced--by a whim on the part of those more powerful than it, and for their amusement and convenience--to the space of a tiny, dirty glass bowl, where it is very difficult for the fish to escape, get quite enough oxygen to think straight, or eat anything it is not fed by the powerful ones with whims.   

We also see a kitty, a powerful predator of fish and a pampered pet of the same powerful folks who put the fish in the glass bowl to begin with.  The fish's graceful movements in this confined state amuse the kitty, even provoking its admiration, for the kitty has seen movies and TV shows about the glory of life in the ocean before its owners, who daily feed it tuna and salmon, destroyed the barrier reefs.  This may well appear romantic and noble to the kitty, who once attended a fishing rodeo, which made it think for a few seconds about how its own noble ancestors were not subject to the whims of the powerful but instead caught their own fish.  The kitty would very possibly like to be, or eat--kitty does not perceive any difference--the fish.  The kitty therefore attempts to invade what little is left of the fish's territory.  Kitty expected to get a free lunch and a romantic life under the sea "like in the old days" so it could be friends with the fish while continuing to eat tuna and salmon.  Instead, we see the kitty receiving a sharp bite on the ass.

Hands up anyone else who can't see who represents whom here.  Anyone?  Bueller?  I thought not.


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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2008, 09:17:59 pm »
I woulsn't worry about it, the criticism is empty. I've read the French have put up several rules and regulations to protect their culture from the influences of the outside. Especially the media and whatever else they may be influenced. I guess if they can do it, we can try and all that wish to help may.

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2008, 12:49:09 pm »
A few days ago, one of the organizers of the Austrian Summer Camp complained in a
German language forum that, due to the translations done by several persons, Ben
Cloud has left Germany ('... had lived in Europe for some time which - due to your
efforts - belongs to the past now').

Strangely enough, there are still ads for events with Cloud to be found online, as e.g.
the following one scheduled to take place in about 2 weeks' time:
"March 20, 2008, 7 p.m. to 11 p.m.
Ben Oldfeather Cloud from Montana/USA
Indian Healing ceremony"

The ad for the 2008 summer camp, too, is still online and in fact does not give any info about
the event having been canceled at all - to the contrary, it meanwhile received an addition:

Spiritcamp 2008
Achtung: Nur noch wenige Restplätze frei!!
[Attention: Only few more vacancies available!!]
Termin: Sonntag 27. Juli - So 3. August 2008


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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2008, 07:03:31 am »
I guess they can complain about this translation as well.

Summer camp remark:
Ben Cloud is this week as our guest in the summer camp. He divides his experience of life and his knowledge about the spiritual worlds with us.
Besides, his spectrum reaches from slide talks on the reservation and the life there,Talks to the topical like historical political like economic situation of his trunk also,
like this share of his knowledge about the Spirits and her impacts.
All offers the Ben Cloud within our seminar workshop to the participants offers find in arrangement with the people of his trunk instead of who must know this.

Spiritcamp 2008
Attention: only few rest places freely!!
Appointment: Sunday 27th July - Thus 3rd August

Place: Mountain house Zimba Bürserberg/plateau Tschengla at 1200-m lake height
Appointment: Sunday 27th July - Thus 3rd August
Tip: on account of the bigger and bigger popularity of our camp we have resolved to limit the partial takers-number.
This guarantees that the intensity and quality of the camp continues furthermore. The places will arrive after of the obliging registration lined up. Please, early book.
The Spiritcamp is a long experience, - and Naturwoch for adults and children. Families are pretty welcome.
The position of the camp on the plateau in the Tschengla offers ideal conditions during these days for us. In immediate nearness there are the stone circle arrangements of the Bürserberges as well as wonderful high-level moors with rare plants and flowers. Likewise in short time accessible is the Ronaalpe with excellent home milk and cheese products.

The Spiritcamp from is escorted:
Ben Old Feather Cloud
Sabrina and Marcel Dengel, with Fabian (14 years), Martin (12 years) and Jeramis (3 years)
The program in the Spiritcamp refers to the Indian culture of the Crow Indians just as to our local roots here in the Alpine space.
Schamanisches traveling, speech circles, women's day and man's day, Schwitzhütten, physical experiences, cooperate and produce from strength and ritual objects, ceremonies and a lot accompanies more us during these days.

Other possibilities within the scope of the camp:
Youth inauguration for girl and boy on inquiry
Individual accompanied vision search
Heilungszerimonie (during this day are welcome visitor from 17.00 o'clock; costs for guests: 34 euros)

The organizational:
The lodgings are in mountain house Zimba, there several single rooms, double rooms as well as family rooms are available.
Bedclothes and small towels are in the rooms, bath towels as well as towels for the Schwitzhütten must be brought themselves!
With registration give please the accommodation kind and the personal number. Also the possibility exists to spend the night in own tent.
The camp is so organized that parents with her children can take part together.
Parents are for her children even verantworlich and have the supervision duty. There are different offers for children and with the respective group management the supervision must be discussed.

Camp fee:
Adult 233.-euros
Children from 12 years 144.-euros (in company)
Children 6 to 12 years 89.-euros (in company)
Children 3 to 6 years 55 euros (in company)
Family price: Families with 2 or more children on the camp fees 13% of reduction
Schüler/Studenten/Lehrlinge: 13% of reduction on the camp fees for adults.

The catering occurs about mountain house Zimba and exists of an extensive breakfast refreshment bar, during the day snack refreshment bar (incl. coffee, tea and fruit syrup), dinner.

Costs for lodging / catering:

With accommodation in the house:
 Adult: 245.-euros (35.-euros per day and person)
Children 6-12 years 175.-euros (25.-euros per child and day)

Children till 6 years 126.-euros (18.-euros per child and day)

In own tent:

Adult: 175.-euros (25.-euros per person and day)
Children 6-12 years 119.-euros (17.-euros per child and day)
Children till 6 years 84.-euros (12 euros per child and day)

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2008, 01:17:27 pm »
I found the following conversation at the trafo-website; its owners used to organize the summer camps with Benjamin Cloud:


User: nanabuc
age: 37
Date: March 21, 2008, 10:48
Title: A holy man

"I would like to tell the story of a friend here.

I met him seven years ago in the Eifel Mountain region at a summer camp. He was there as a guest and told us about his life.
He is from North America, Montana. He asked me to tell his story so that we in Europe may understand somewhat better that back home at the reservation, in "Indian live" [sic], much is different from what we know here or from what we imagine.

At home with his people, the Crow, he is a holy man.
He is a spiritual leader of his people.
He participates in many very intense ceremonies, some of which he also leads.
He is a healer and works with the powers of his spirits and the medicine/the medicines which were given to him by his ancestors in direct line.
He is politically active within his tribe and works for his people on all levels.

When we first met, he was in Europe for the first time.
During this week, he also met a woman he married.
The two of them spent half of the year in Montana with his people, and part of the year in her home country.
When the two had a son, they became a real little family.

Four years ago, this friend came to us to Austria for the first time and accompanied a summer camp we did here in the mountains.

Four years in a row he was here as a friend and a guest with us.
He lead talking circles, talked about his life, brought along photos, lead the one or the other sweatlodge, spent time with the people forming a community for one week. At the last but one evening of every summer camp, this friend made us the gift of a healing night - same way as he does at home with his people.  With the agreement of his family to do this ceremony in Europe.

There was also a biography of our friend on our site.

As is "normal" for us here in Europe, we advertised our summer camp at our website and of course we announced the fees due for the week. In the same way we announced we would pass on half of the profits to our friend.
For the time he spent in Europe with his family, he had expenditures in the same way as every other person here in Europe to finance their upkeep.

Our friend and his wife also published a website and announced events done in their region.

In autumn 2006 [sic], some people from a German internet forum noticed the "activities" [sic] of our friend. Some of the participants of this forum are European women married to Natives and living with them in America. These women did not like at all what our friend did in Europe - for them, it was an evident case of "selling out Indian spirituality".

In this, these women refered to everything they could find in the internet. None of these women or other people in the forum were prepared to talk in person of per telephone, even after I published my telephone number in the forum and offered to pay the cost for the telephone conversation.
An internet witchhunt started against our friend which lasted for more than two years. Texts got copied and were translated into English language complete with side-swipes - in American forums, in which there are also Natives reading and writing who live there.

And then this "information" was carried through the reservations and passed from mouth to ear like in the children's game....

A month ago, I received a mail from our friend.
He told me that back at home his tribe had heard rumours that people were saying he had done the ultimate sin a Native in his position as a holy man could do. He had sold Indian spirituality. Thirty years of his life he had worked for this path, 30 years of life deep from his heart, wit the aim of being there for his people.
He had tried to do the balancing act between Europe and North America, his people. He wanted to learn who we are and to teach us who he is and how he thinks. He tried to build a new circle of persons together with us - no matter which colour, nation, social background.... a community circle.

The rumours got more and more, and soon nobody would come to his ceremonies.
His status and all his former life were at stake within a minute - just because some sites had been written on him on the internet. So unexpected, and from a direction which would almost be reason to laugh at it, wouldn't it be so serious and sad.

Custer's long arm still works today - and their ways are mysterious... European women more Indian than many Indians themselves, who chose themselves to save Indian peoples from doom with their hairsplitting, causing the situation that a holy man, a carrier of strong medicine and with a heart which would be able to carry the entire world, faces the ruin of his entire life. But they didn't do anything but pass on "information", when you ask them.

Some days ago, I received another mail from our friend.
A meeting was called - a council of Elders, at which he was held responsible. He met with his uncles, then with the Eldest of the women, and finally with the rest of his relatives.
Every time, he had to justify himself in front of them.
The decision has been taken now.

He is not going to come to Europe for the time being, he refrains from our world here and by this will keep his status in his home country. His family will support him in this and soon he will do his first ceremony again.

For us here this is a prime exmaple.
Much will go different from what we expected or thought.
I saw plainly which consequences the internet may have.
It made me sad and it was shocking to see how vicious and underhand some people can be.
And this challenges me to live and explore my roots even more intense.

I thank our friend for having shared some time with us, we will presumably meet again when I fly over to Montana.
We both know he will come back to Europe some day - as our friend which he always was and always will be.


User: otter
age: 40
place:: near hanau
Date: March 17, 2008, 11:22

i simply cannot understand what makes these (sorry) bitches tick and what doesn't, it's a pussle to me [translator's note: I try to represent the original faulty spelling etc].
somehow this gets across to me as fascist,although it can't be about preserving the race of Natives when so many european ladies are involved and add their stuff.
did they ever stop to think where the ancient european nature religions and healing knowledge came from?didnt europe experience a similar cultural oppression?
ohboyohboy, and it is about the same interests,shouldnt grown-up, somewhat educated persons be able to agree in order to keep resp. discover the ancient treasures?
it is to hope that the initiators of this know about the shadow they cast over themselves and wont act in the same unreflected way in future.


User: Road Man
age: 34
date: March 17, 2008, 17:14

Hi all!
Did see some of what e.g. got written in this one forum. Apu has had doings with such dimwits, too. In both cases, ironically, the non-Indians were pretending more Indian than the Indians themselves. I can understand well that e.g. the Lakota are miffed when some white-arses come along, e.g. steal the pipe ceremony and simply "imitate" it. Looks diffren again when e.g. such a ceremony gets taken over in a way that it gets changed for the European context. Another example: Sabrina does this in a very beautiful way with the sweatlodge. It is basically Indian, true, but got adapted so that we don't call the buffalo spirit etc, but we call "our" spirits. I saw the lodge and would recommend it any time - it has become something special which will continue to develop. There's a difference between "playing Indian" and getting inspired by them. And although I don't know Ben - would like to meet him -, I'm sorry all this did go a silly way. Cause what he does feels super-good.
Road Man

User: nanabuc
date: March 19, 2008, 07:56
Thank you all so very, very much,

I will tell our friend what you think about his story.
@Otter - the decision of the Elders has clearly been taken in their own interest. But it was these European women who triggered it off with their passing on of information.

@Genesis - yes, you're right, the Indians had almost everything stolen, but it's the same with the Tibetans (something happening again), the Africans, the natives in Europe, the Aboriginales.... [sic]
I believe it is enough of stealing, of devouring etc.

I also think, however, it is time to open oneself for each other, to support each other mutually and to help each other along mutually.

I can understand if Natives get mad when they see the umpteenth Chief Standing Eagle at a village party in Lower Upshitscreek, wearing warpaint and smoking sage [sic] from his peace pipe and who, over a pint of beer, goes ranting about his latest sweat "Like, man, far out, man, been helluva hot in dere, knowwotahmean, thought me ears were gonna melt, mitakuye oyasin..."

But in this case it all got brushed off by "We passed on all the information we need from the internet" without consultation, no word to us or to our friend himself, without checking what's really going on - and as I said above - this just prevents that a wonderful person may continue to share his knowledge and his medicine in Europe.

Well, the world will go on, it is now just a mere 3 months and then I'll fly over to the sundances - which BTW are officially admitted[sic] for white persons (at least the sundance I'll go to...)
I will keep you informed about our friend and how it will go on....

greetz and have a nice day,

[the following user, going by the name of Apu Kuntur, happens to be the short-time NAFPS contributor Stefan Klemenc going by "Neil Greenwood"]

User: Apu Kuntur
age: 38
place: Augsburg
date: March 20, 2008, 12:00

I watched closely what went on there - unfortunately, there's people on the net who are full of envy and hate against everything they don't like.

Right, I've got to admit, since last September, I take a more neutral to displeased stand towards him (and I expect that this situation will be solved in Yankee country, I still remember vividly the wrath of the condor spirit - something I won't like to experience again) and only little could make me change my mind - as the only one who could make me change my mind is exactly this holy man.

Everything that went on because of/through these bitches (much as I'd like, I cannot find another term for them) who positioned themselves against him in a way holier than the pope, which lacks respect, is cunning, indecent and it shows the shortcomings of these "ladies" who are responsible for this.

As Roadie pointed out I had doings with similar scum. It is my advantage that I'm not as easy to be got by mouth-to-mouth propaganda - but unfortunately it became evident that traditionalists can be deadly afraid of genuine spirituality - those who are most afraid are, embarassingly, the whites who aren't part of such a tradition themselves.

What I saw there (and also regarding Ben of course) made me decide to stop all activities regarding Indian spirituality and the exploitation of it[sic!!] with immediate effect. Apart from taking down the translation of the Declaration of War, there will be a statement by me which will explain this action (in English language).

Shamanic greetings,
Apu Kuntur

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 02:37:12 pm »
Thanks, Ingeborg. Seems like his people let him know that he was wrong and how he could correct ir. SO he sends whiney emails to his euro friends and gets sympathy. If he HAD been able to show that it was "just rumors" they would have let him off the hook. Not a very honest man.

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2013, 03:20:40 pm »
Contacts between Cloud and his European clients seem to have continued.

This is from a photo album published by Sabrina Dengel from TrAfo Seminar House in Austria, who used to organise the summer camps with Cloud, from a photo series taken during her 2008 stay in Montana at the Crow rez for a sundance:

photo 95 – the caption reads: „Ben showing us Crow country“. The photo is dd June 27, 2008

photo 10: „Ben's trailer and our tents – our home for the next two weeks“

In an entry at Facebook, Dengel replies to an invitation to an event in 2011:

I will pass this to M..., I'm going to be in Montana at that point in time.
entry dd. May 18, 2011, 23:36

Another user comments:
Thanks! Wish you a spiritual Sundance ;-) safe return!!! Rgds to all of the bunch
entry dd May 20, 2011, 11:26

Dengel's website also provides evidence that they still raise financial support for Cloud from selling ceremonies:

The „White Owl“ is a special shamanic ritual during which, through ritual donning of spirit clothes, the every-day person steps back and leaves leadership to a compassionate-helping spirit being.

These seminars, two in 2013, are done by one Adrian Osswald
Further info:
Exchange: Euro 34 per person.
Covering of expenses (travel expense for Adrian, infrastructure), the rest is for the benefit of Ben Cloud Medicinehorse (Crow) and his family in Montana.
Emphasis mine

The same info is given for another ceremony done by Dengel herself:

The Medicine lodge will be done with a max. of 11 participants. Part of the exchange for the medicine lodges will be donated to Ben Cloud Medizinhorse [sic] (Crow) and his family in Montana. […]
Exchange: Euro 144 per person incl. dinner; couples' exchange: Euro 233

Therefore, it seems that monies from the sale of ceremonies indeed are passed on to and accepted by Cloud. (However, according to this site, Cloud holds a job as the editor of the „Apsalooke Nation“: , so whether financial aid may be necessary seems debatable.)
Please also note that Dengel renders his name as „Ben Cloud Medicinehorse“ on her site now.

Apart from these two incidents, Dengel completely removed Cloud from her site as if no cooperation ever occured. However, she continues to use Cloud's name for promotion in posts at forums:

This is an ad for a sweat done by Dengel at a Nuage congress. Dengel claims she does a sweatlodge „adapted to our time and culture. We intend to act towards other cultures with respect and refrain from using their language or songs or their analogy of a sweatlodge“.
Dengel's choice of words is interesting, because she enhances the status of 'her' sweats while denigrating that of ndn traditions. At the same time, she claims: „In Europe, the sweatlodge ceremony has chiefly been reintroduced by persons from other cultures, predominantly North American Natives.“

My teachers are and were: Buckshoot Knight (Shadow Dancer and Dogsoldier of the Lakota Sioux, Cheyenne River Reservation) Ben old feather Cloud (Sundancechief and Elder, Crow-Apsaalooke, Montana) Varuna Loacker and Brandolf Höss, Alamannic  tradition community, Vorarlberg [Austrian federal state]

Emphasis mine

Cloud is also named in the acknowledgements published in Dengel's XING profile.

I also found this press info for the 2008 summer camp which still names Cloud as a lecturer, i.e. at a point in time he wasn't supposed to be selling ceremony any longer:

(lifePR) (Bludenz, 07.05.2008)

SPIRITCAMP in Bürserberg/Tschengla During Spiritcamp, Ben Old Feather Cloud combines knowledge from the culture of Crow-Indians with alpine roots. The programme offers shamanic journeys, the manufacture of power and ritual objects as well as various ceremonies.
The camp takes place from July 27 to August 3 [2008] in Berghaus Zimba in the town of Bürserberg/Tschengla and is suited for families. Participants may stay in the Berghaus or in their own tent.
Camp fee: adults EUR 233,-, reductions for children. 

From the info, one cannot tell whether the camp indeed took place with Cloud or whether Dengel couldn't be bothered to inform customers Cloud wouldn't be available. By the time the above info was published, in May 2008, Cloud had already agreed to stop selling ceremonies: According to Dengel's own words (cf post no. 27 above), this agreement happened in February 2008, and by posting the 'sad story' in her forum, it is very evident that she was aware of this agreement. So Dengel either tried to dupe new customers not familiar with the situation and deceive them about the participation of an ndn medicine person, or she aided and abetted Cloud in breaking the agreement with his Elders.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 03:22:11 pm by Ingeborg »