General > Research Needed
Ayahuasca in Canada?
Defend the Sacred:
If you plan on continuing to ask until someone says it's OK, that's not going to happen here. We stand with the Elders who protect their sacred plants and traditions, not those who are pillaging the plants and selling out the Indigenous people to make a buck.
If the vine goes extinct due to this commercialization, what then? That's what the Elders we have contacts with are deeply worried about. They tell us the spirits are offended. People are being murdered, going crazy, etc. It's not a good thing.
Of course the people making money off this say different. Of course they claim they're blessed and doing good. Read the other threads. Our group is against pay to pray and exploitation of Indigenous ways.
Mr.Michif:
--- Quote ---If you plan on continuing to ask until someone says it's OK, that's not going to happen here
--- End quote ---
That was never my plan, I'm not looking for affirmation, I am gathering data to form my own opinion.
I just wanted to know what your opinion was on the Santo Daime tradition. Is this a legitimate tradition or not? I thought that was the purpose of the site.
From my understanding true Santo Diame is not a pay to pray but rather a communal sharing of the costs incurred for their works. There is no one claiming to be Elders or Shamans. It is first and foremost a religion.
I agree with what you say in many aspects. And I believe the medicine should be protected, and ethically harvested. And that traditions should be respected and understood.
But again, my question would be: Is Santo Daime a tradition and religion worth respecting and practicing. Can that form of work, from that tradition, be ethical?
And if not, then why do you think that is so if: it is ethically gathered, and there is no one profiting from prayer.
I have differing opinions that were taught from my Elders about plants being traded and gifted even across continents. But that is neither here nor there because of course Elder's will have differing opinions.
Mr.Michif:
I found this interesting article https://chacruna.net/ayahuasca-really-desappearing/ . It's worth reading, as it tries to encompass the spread of ayahuasca as well as protecting the indigenous ceremonies and advocating against deforestation.
I am sorry if I come across as terse. I honestly do agree with you on virtually every point, and I think the goal of this community is really solid.
I often question though, if globalization is inevitable at this point, how can the spread of medicines be ethically accomplished. Of course, ayahuasca is a hot topic but even at my own Sweats, I see people abuse smoking cigarettes claiming the act of smoking is sacred, as well as downing cups of coffee when they arrive in the morning (something I myself am guilty of). But coffee is sacred to many groups as well, we just don't think about it very much because people are so used to abusing it.
Part of my training is to understand how things are kept sacred, from ayahuasca and coffee to tobacco. I do think there is a way but I am still learning which is why I really do appreciate the advice you're giving.
Laurel:
You don't come across as terse. You come across as Defend the Scared said you do--as someone who wants permission to do something wrong and who can't listen to opposing opinions. You don't seem to "agree with" anyone here at all, or even know NAFPS very well. (You said you thought sweats were for anyone who wants to participate in one. I hope you know better now.)
"If" a plant is going to die out because infantile Westerners use it to get high, maybe the right approach to take for Westerners is to leave that plant alone and let the cultures who use it as sacred medicine continue looking after it--not declare a free-for-all trip while it's still around. When you hear an animal species is endangered, do you decide to "save" it by buying a member of that species as a pet?
I'd be interested to know who is training you. Is it those same traveling medicine show people who maybe know what they're doing, maybe don't, and who have no right to take this medicine out of its culture and context?
--- Quote from: Mr.Michif on February 03, 2021, 12:17:45 am ---I found this interesting article https://chacruna.net/ayahuasca-really-desappearing/ . It's worth reading, as it tries to encompass the spread of ayahuasca as well as protecting the indigenous ceremonies and advocating against deforestation.
I am sorry if I come across as terse. I honestly do agree with you on virtually every point, and I think the goal of this community is really solid.
I often question though, if globalization is inevitable at this point, how can the spread of medicines be ethically accomplished. Of course, ayahuasca is a hot topic but even at my own Sweats, I see people abuse smoking cigarettes claiming the act of smoking is sacred, as well as downing cups of coffee when they arrive in the morning (something I myself am guilty of). But coffee is sacred to many groups as well, we just don't think about it very much because people are so used to abusing it.
Part of my training is to understand how things are kept sacred, from ayahuasca and coffee to tobacco. I do think there is a way but I am still learning which is why I really do appreciate the advice you're giving.
--- End quote ---
Sparks:
--- Quote from: Mr.Michif on February 02, 2021, 02:01:58 am ---I recently went to a medicine ceremony for Ayahuasca near my home [in Canada]. It was run by two European men that had studied in a place called Flor Astral in Costa Rica. Apparently, this place was based on the Santo Diame tradition? I did some brief research on Santo Diame, and from what I gathered it is a religion based on the combination of several different religions as well as the Shapibo indigenous spirituality.
--- End quote ---
My boldings and addition of 'in Canada' in the quote. So what place in Canada are you reporting from?
Three misspellings in here which confounds googling:
1. Florestral, not 'Flor Astral': https://www.florestral.org/ — https://www.florestral.org/land
--- Quote ---Florestral Community is located in the lush Forest of Southwestern Costa Rica. We live, work and play in a beautiful location that is abundant in nature, with fertile land and immense potential for growth and expansion. We are an open-hearted community based on friendship and service to Great Spirit, and we are blessed to provide a supportive ground for healing and self-transformation through a deeper discovery of love and oneself.
--- End quote ---
I am gathering material to start a new topic about that (ad)venture, and will come back with a link later.
2. Santo Daime, not 'Santo Diame': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime — http://www.santodaime.org/
3. Shipibo is the usual spelling, not 'Shapibo': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipibo-Conibo
Although ayahuasca is central both to the Santo Daime religion and to what you term "Shapibo indigenous spirituality", I can find absolutely nothing which confirms that the former is also based on the latter. (E.g.: The Shipibo are not mentioned on the huge Santo Daime website.) — Can you please substantiate your claim?
You repeat a similar claim here:
--- Quote from: Mr.Michif on February 02, 2021, 08:02:55 pm ---https://santodaime.ca/ — https://chacruna.net/mestre-irineu-ayahuasca/
After reading that article, it sounded like the man who started the religion in the 1930's did so with the guidance of visions from the creator, as well as support for Shapibo Elders. It is with that lineage that places like Ceu du Montreal were granted permission to carry out what they call "the works" as opposed to a Ceremony.
--- End quote ---
My bolding. The article says nothing about "Shapibo Elders" nor is Shipibo mentioned. There is only this:
--- Quote ---According to reports by his followers, Mestre Irineu was probably initiated into the mysteries of ayahuasca in Peru by indigenous shamans (Moreira & MacRae, 2011).
--- End quote ---
The above mentioned book is available for in-text search here:
https://books.google.no/books?id=E5l0CgAAQBAJ — Neither Shapibo nor Shipibo mentioned anywhere in the book.
Two quotes from the Santo Daime website which show that the Shipobo conncetion is possible, but maybe not so plausible:
--- Quote --- 1. "While in Peru and Bolivia, some friends acquainted him [the founder of Santo Daime] with the beverage known in the region as ayahuasca."
2. "Pronounced "ah-yah-waska," the word is from the Quechua language; it means "vine of the soul," "vine of the dead," or "the vision vine." Known by various names among 72 native ayahuasca-ingesting cultures in Peru, Columbia, and Ecuador, this legendary, industrial-strength hallucinogen is used by curanderos, or witch doctors, to heal the sick and communicate with spirits. Many rainforest shamans simply refer to ayahuasca as el remedio, "the remedy.".
--- End quote ---
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