NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Cetan on August 18, 2007, 07:43:47 pm
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I've deleted this post. II'm not sure its original author would have wanted it reproduced here and Cetan has not been forthcoming about its source.
Cetan, perhaps you could contact the original author and suggest they sign up here and post it themselves, if it's meant to be public.
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Hello Cetan. Can you tell us who sent this please?
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looks like more of the anti-Looking Horse Birgade. frederica
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I have a hard time believing that Arvol would condone such blatant disregard for the sacrifice the dancers are commited to. I would like to see more clarification on the source of this.
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Really should have not been made public on internet. Says it was Private. I am sure the Cheyenne River Elders can manage this. frederica
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The e-mail was from Vivian High Elk and it said foward to whoever. I am disappointed that you would remove suspected abuse - isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about. I am not passing judgement one way or another however I do know that 2 days after the protection of ceremonies statement came out Arvol was pouring an off rez inipi for mostly whites then gave a talk and book signing which he charged for. I know this to be true because I personally witnessed it. I also know that the person who brought him there told me he was embarrassed to bring Arvol back because he discovered Arvol was having sexual relations with a white woman there who was definately not his wife or partner.
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In my opinion this is entirely Lakota business and should not be discussed here.
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You could use that argument for almost any post here - Steve Mccullogh claims to have a Lakota altar and rund a Lakota Sundance so should all posts about him be removed? For that matter why evenpost anything about that Suzanne Dupree, isnt that Lakota business?
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As I understand it , it isn't for people outside the tribe to comment on activities of tribal members within their own tribe and this isn't "something you see in almost any post here."
For example , Suzanne Dupree is promoting herself to people outside her own tribe , and obviously trying to gain support from uninformed non lakota people . If she went to her tribal Elders and sorted this out with them , she would not be posted here , no matter how silly her claims may be.
Also , the vast majority of what gets posted in NAFPS comes off of peoples websites advertising their " product".
People do sometimes contribute personal experiences, on top of that , and when there is serious abuses of power this is probably a good warning , but usually there is proof a person is charging for ceremony or claiming something silly is " Native American ", or claiming authorization to do something silly , that legitimate tribal authorities say they do not have .
Quite frankly peoples private lives are private . Allegations about peoples intimate personal affairs rarely get posted here unless these questionable intimate relationships are initiated with followers or clients , and someones claims to be a medicine person is being used to get access to people. Where do you see an allegation like this this discussed here - if it is simply someones private life ?
It may be Arvol is getting pulled out of balance by the feedback and attention he gets from too much exposure to non lakotas , but if this is true , making it public , so the "Anti Protection of Ceremonies Brigade" can put a spin on it , and use it as a weapon against him , just makes it more likely the message he needs to hear will be distorted , and aimed to injure rather than help.
People who live within their own tribe don't need NAFPS to help keep things in balance . These people have their Elders to do that . People who have day to day exposure with traditional Elders don't need a internet group to point them in the right direction or provide accurate cultural information .
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Admin note: I've unlocked Cetan's earlier thread, merged it with the later one, and given it a new title.
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Many of the elders and leaders of our LDN Nation had a meeting on the Rosebud penitentiary and did condemn his actions - it is primarily non-LDN who are supporting him.
Barnaby's note: third hand allegations removed for the second, and hopefully last, time.
The White Buffalo Calf Pipe Commercialized (http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/pipecommercialized.htm)
From the Dakota Lakota Journal, Volume 8, Issue 28, June 29 to July 6 2007
Alfred Bone Shirt
Vivian High Elk
Stacey Low Dog
Barnaby's note: article text removed, replaced with link.
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This should have been in the last post
PRESS RELEASE
A meeting was convened by the Sicangu Lakota Grass Roots Oyate on October 21st, 2006... (http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/selling_indian_culture.htm#articles)
Barnaby's note: article text removed, replaced with link. Have you read this press release, Cetan? It says
Vivian stated the issue being presented is an internal issue for our people...
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Since this is already old news, you forgot to post Arvol Looking Horse's response. Deserves equal time. http://mytwobeadsworth.com/ArvolLookinghorsestate707.html
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Cetan
I may be way out of line here, but I want to say that I do empathize with your concerns. I saw the White Buffalo Calf fridge magnets being sold by Wolakoka foundation and I stopped and wondered how I would feel about that if I was Lakota. Unless I really believed in what was being done with the money raised , I think I would feel sad .
Though it is none of my business to comment on this particular situation, I do believe as a general principle that if
the people of someones tribe object to how they are utlizing collectively held cultural resources , assuming it isn't just a very few eccentric cranky individuals, the people saying NO need to be listened to and respected . There is no other way these cultural traditions will survive in a good way .
There was a long discussion of this, in the thread " Who owns Native culture"
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=412.0;all (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=412.0;all)
At the same time , I can see Arvol is in a very difficult position . I don't think many people could do his job , and make everyone happy . Even if everyone is just the Lakota people . Like you say , people are human and anyone constantly getting requests or little rewards for bending to someone else's interests would probably be affected over time . I am not sure anyone could be in his situation and not feel confused and overwhelmed at times. When people get overwhelmed and confused , things can get off the tracks
The problem as I see it is, publicly discrediting Arvol just gets used by the culture vultures to dismiss the proclamation of the protection of ceremonies, which is often wrongly attributed to just Arvol Looking Horse . As almost all Lakota Elders are united in this concern about cultural degradation , wouldn't it be better to deal with this internally ? Making this public, tends to create the confusion needed so these exploiters can continue to disregard Lakota authority to maintain and protect their own culture . Untrue stories being pumped up and spread by culture vultures, can only put people on the defensive and make them less able to listen . And what good does the public knowing about this do ? It isn't going to do any good for the Lakota people, if the general public stops respecting the authority of the Lakota Spiritual leaders .
I know Arvol has many friends who love him, who post in this forum , and I really hope me saying this doesn't offend anyone. I am just a nobody know nothing , I do have a big mouth .
I just wish for a good solution to this, and that anybody who needs to hear something will be able to hear it.
The whole situation just makes me sad every time i read about it .
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To me it's pretty clear that this is a dispute about the rightfulness of some of the actions of some of the people who are associated with one man who is undeniably an elder. To say that an elder being criticized makes him no longer an elder, or anywhere in the same league with an outright obvious abuser and exploiter like Harley Reagan, or a fringe character like Dupree, is quite a stretch.
The older members will remember a lot of the arguments he late Mike Two Horses (himself Lakota and a cousin to Crow Dog) made, thinking of anyone who gets accused of exploitation as needing to be ranked on a scale. Mike made the same argument about Crow Dog, both his being an elder and yet also doing some wrong.
And all of that is EVEN IF every last accusation made against Looking Horse were true, which it isn't clear at all. Clearly the man has done an awful lot of good which must be considered as well.
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Cetan, please edit your posts. I'd like you to remove the entire articles you've posted here and replace them with a link and a summary of each article. That way people get to discover other places where this is being discussed and maybe read different opinions than will be expressed here. Since you think it's important to inform people about all this, why not make it more readable? Reposting the entire Lakota/Dakota/Nakota declaration of war on exploiters from 1993 seems particularly strange.
Later:
Never mind, I did it myself.
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I have to remind people that this SMALL group in Rosebud does not speak for the
Lakota Nation
When the proclamation first came out it was these people who stood up aganist it.
Don't believe everything people post lies and rumor are everywhere
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I'm wondering if this group as well as the Dupree woman went to the Grey Eagle Society with these issues and if so then why aren't they content with letting the elders handle it in whatever way they seem fit. I am fairly certain the Society would not choose to air these things on the net.
Sapa