NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Moma_porcupine on March 28, 2008, 05:49:50 pm
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I have a question. This has come up a few times and my question is about teaching using books, and at what point that crosses a line from being educational into being exploitive and distorting the culture.
I see one of the newer members of NAFPS, who I believe is Lakota, is selling a book in which he shares his life story - which seems it would be anyones right to do - but for Native people this gets a bit more complicated when someones life story is interwoven with culture and Spirituality and traditional teachings and Elders who taught this are named ...
http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page6.html (http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page6.html)
When he was but a child, Chaska's grandfather realized that he was gifted by the Great Spirit. Chaska was raised by his maternal grandparents of the Ho-Chunk Winnebago Tribe. He was mentored by traditional elders of his father, Calvin J. Denny's Dakota / Lakota Nation including Grandpa Frank Fools Crow, Traditional Chief and Holy man.
In WAMINEGA, Chaska's Winnebago name meaning "Grizzly Bear Walks on the Snow," you will be drawn into Chaska's amazing spiritual and earthly experiences. In his first fifty years, Chaska has seen, felt and known ALL of the Agony and Ecstasy which the American Indian has tasted since 1492. Chaska's first book is an overview of his personal life as he seeks to walk in The Spiritual Path of the Sacred Red Power of the Dakota / Lakota Nation and his 40-year-search for The One of his VISION, seen in his first Vision Quest at age 13.
(con...)
WAMINEGA is a spiral-bound, 240-page, in-depth, fully-detailed book of the Sacred Red Power with seven full-color photo pages and 57 colored illustrations. Each book is numbered and signed by the author, Calvin Chaska, (con..)
Please, make check or money order for $40 (mailing by bookrate US Postal Service included) to Chaska at
(con...)
Chaska is a noted Speaker / Teacher of Traditional Plains Indian Spirituality having been mentored by Seven Strong Medicine Men and having made 13 Vision Quests in his nearly 60 years to find his own Path and Destiny.
http://www.hochunkmall.com/directory/supp/chaska_denny.htm (http://www.hochunkmall.com/directory/supp/chaska_denny.htm)
Self-published auto biography of spiritual experiences. Waminega ("Walks on the Snow") is Chaska Denny's remarkable (Ho-Chunk/Dakota) biography that instructs those, who want to experience Red Nation's Sacred Red Power, HOW to Prepare to Begin. Raised by Ho-Chunk grandparents, mentored by their friend, Lakota Chief & Holy Man Frank Fools Crow, and Dawson Has No Horse, Chaska was instructed to write basic spiritual truths.
I guess I am also wondering about when Native people write up their own philosophical ideas, but this is mixed in with an introduction which makes their own ideas sound like traditional teachings when it is really just their own ideas...
It is a bit murky as no one would suggest that Native people shouldn't share their personal thoughts on what things mean , but when Native people do this , in conjunction with introducing themselves as someone with traditional knowledge , it seems there can be a confusing overlap between sharing personal beliefs and the claim of traditional teachings or ceremonies.
Like Chaska sharing his thoughts here;
http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page3.html (http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page3.html)
The Soul began with the first expression which Free Will made of its power, through the force of mind, the first thought which it generated of itself. The first diversion of mind force from its normal path was the beginning of Soul. The nucleus of the Soul was in balance, positive and negative force in equal power producing harmonious activity. The positive (male) irradiating, impregnating; the negative (female), receiving, nourishing.
The steps of this action were the stages of thought: perception, reflection and opinion.
The Soul consisted of two stages of consciousness: that of the Spirit bearing a knowledge of its identity with God, and that of the new Individual bearing knowledge of everything it experienced. The plan for Soul was a cycle of experience unlimited in scope and duration in which the new Individual would come to know creation in all its aspects at the discretion of will. The cycle would be completed when the desire of will was no longer different than the thought of God.
The consciousness of the new Individual would merge with its spiritual consciousness
of Identity with God. And the Soul would return to its Source as the Companion it was intended to be. In this state the Soul would regain its consciousness of a separate individuality and would be aware of its own Free Will.
It now acted as a part of God, not diverting mind force, because it was in agreement with
the action toward which this force was directed. Until this state was reached, the Soul would not be a Companion in the true sense of the word. The idea that a return to God
means a loss of individuality is paradoxical since God is aware of everything that happens
and therefore aware of the consciousness of each Individual.
Thus the return of the Soul is the return of the image to that which imagined it and the consciousness of an Individual. Its record, written in mind, could not be destroyed without destroying a part of God Himself. Thus, when a Soul returns to God, it becomes aware of itself, not only as a part of God, but as a part of every other soul and everything
("Mitakuye Oyasin" - We are all related).
Or here;
http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page4.html (http://visionoftheworld.com/_wsn/page4.html)
The Ancient Mysteries were concerned with man's problem of FREEING the soul-spirit from the world. In the mystery symbologies, the Earth was always represented as the underworld and the soul-spirit was lost in this underworld until freed from it by wisdom, faith and understanding. It was taught that Persephone was abducted by Pluto, Lord of Hades. Persephone is the soul-spirit of man, whose true home is in the heavens.
The mystery religions were then a preparation for the arrival of Jesus. He would be the fruit of their efforts and his message to be a fuller revelation to the people there in that region of these mysteries. The Essenes, the ones who prepared Mary, selected Joseph and taught Jesus, were initiates of the mysteries. Jesus told them he came to fulfill the law and part of that law was the CABALA, the secret doctrine of the Jews, their version of the mysteries.
Those who became converts to Jesus' teachings, such as Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, as well as Paul,were all learned in the Cabala. In the scramble which Christianity made to establish itself as the dominant religion of the decaying Roman Empire, the mysteries were denied their proper place, since to grant that they had truth in them would justify their further existence.
Early Christians used every means possible to conceal the pagan origin of their symbols, doctrines and rituals. They destroyed the sacred texts of others among whom they settled or made sacred texts inaccessible to students of comparitive philosophy, believing that they could stamp out all regard of pre-Christian (pagan) origins of their doctrines.
In the beginning of human time, everyone had the sweatlodge and basic purification ceremonies, which today are only seen in the Norwegians who still use the sauna, but without the spiritual ceremony. The Germans are very fascinated in Native American sweatlodge ceremonies because they know this was once part of their ancient purification ceremonies.
I know some greatly respected Elders have had books written about them , or they have given permission for a book to be written which contains some cultural information. The most recent one that I am aware of is the book written and sold , with the proceeds going to the Wolakota foundation , apparently with Arvol Lookinghorse's permission , titled "White Buffalo Teachings".
I don't know what sort of information is in this book , but I do find it's title a bit confusing as I've always heard traditional teachings need to be passed on by Elders in real life situations, not in books or on line , but I would guess this probably depends on what is being taught....
On the NAFPS introduction page it says ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/ (http://www.newagefraud.org/)
Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.
Native traditionalists believe the ONLY acceptable way to transmit traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face. Any allegedly traditional teachings in books or on websites are NOT authentic.
As we are trying to educate people about what sort of behavior crosses the line, I notice sometimes it isn't completely clear where people draw the line. Thinking about this , it occurs to me there is a few things that need to be considered;
Is the information that is offered as traditional teachings or culture really traditional teachings, and is the information that is offered something that can be shared in a book, or on a website , without it loosing some of the most important parts or being distorted ?
Is traditional teachings or culture being offered in a way that undermines the long term health of the culture as a whole, in order to make a profit, either money or an important position ?
Are these considerations an accurate way of defining when an educational book crosses the line into being exploitation ? Do other people have some other ways of defining this ?
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II know some greatly respected Elders have had books written about them , or they have given permission for a book to be written which contains some cultural information. The most recent one that I am aware of is the book written and sold , with the proceeds going to the Wolakota foundation , apparently with Arvol Lookinghorse's permission , titled "White Buffalo Teachings".
I don't know what sort of information is in this book........,
.....Well, I do. LOL
I´d say that 75% of the book is about why sacred ceremonies should not be exploited and the fact that people are charging for spiritual "services". The rest is about the work with World Peace and Prayer Day, it´s about Big Foot Riders and about environmental issues like global warming. There is some brief info about the seven sacred ceremonies, just why they are being done, not how, and also the legend about how the Pipe came to the People.
If I look at the title "White Buffalocalf Teachings" and combine it with the book, I´d say the teachings are: take care of Mother Earth AND Lakota ceremonies are not for sale, they should be protected for coming generations.
Hope you didn´t mind me jumping in with that info, Moma. As for the rest, I think it is a very important question although not my business....but I am looking forward to read the discussion in here :)
Oh - by the way, sold Arvol´s book to a New Age group here, sent them an invoice and they refused to pay. Because the book wasn´t what they wanted to read. (New Age logic??)
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My Manuscript doesnt authorize anyone to be anything except themselves, it does point out the protocols of the ways, and it does explain that anyone that is on the Path, must get authorizations from the Medicine Men or Medicine women, and there is ceremony that is done before ALL, and IF anyone objects then it must be put aside.....The Manuscript is my life story and the blessings that come with my birth....How my Grandparents raised me....and if a person truly looks at the trials and tribulations of following the ways, it is difficult, because it requires alot of fasting, ceremonial fasting....all sponsored by the relations, the medicinemen and elders....
On the website is various issues that were given to us, so we put it out there....one even on violence....on anger on various things......I was born and raised on NDN Reservation in Nebraska....1949.....old school....born by my Hochunk Mother and my Dakota father, the renegades who were forced from Wisconsin and Minnesota......I have relations who were executed in 1862 in Mankato......My Manuscript does not authorize anyone to be Pipe Holder, Pipe carrier, Medicineman or Medicinewoman, it does give basic knowledge that those on the path should know, it is a preparation before a beginning.....it advises those to seek out Spiritual advisors or spiritual person on NDN reservation.....it tells the protocols for requesting advice or knowledge from those who are NDN spiritual leaders or advisors......it tells those who read it where their particular place in the design of the Great Spirit....if anyone has any questions they may call me anytime....865-922-1920.....
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and also but most importantly....I was advised by my Elders and by these and those mentioned in my manuscript to write it down so the generations coming will see how it must be done, so they will know we have never strayed from our ways and do not change them.
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and lastly, I just don't sell my manuscript to ANYONE.....it is for NDN only, and even if you were non NDN and got ahold of it, you wouldnt be able to understand it, because it is written in rez NDN style.....my manuscript is for NDN's who were raised off rezervation and didnt have elderly to help them understand the ways....it is not published like ordinary books, I publish it myself, that way nothing is changed in it.......my opening statement comes from what the Buffalo Calf Pipe Woman said to over 180 of us in Ceremony.
"Someday, in this Sacred Land, all the nations of people will come together to pray to the Great Spirit in one voice under the direction of THE RED MAN."
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and lastly, I just don't sell my manuscript to ANYONE.....it is for NDN only, and even if you were non NDN and got ahold of it, you wouldnt be able to understand it, because it is written in rez NDN style.....my manuscript is for NDN's who were raised off rezervation and didnt have elderly to help them understand the ways....it is not published like ordinary books, I publish it myself, that way nothing is changed in it.......my opening statement comes from what the Buffalo Calf Pipe Woman said to over 180 of us in Ceremony.
"Someday, in this Sacred Land, all the nations of people will come together to pray to the Great Spirit in one voice under the direction of THE RED MAN."
Chaska, I haven't been responding because I'm not sure what to say . I know Earth is Lakota and is in touch with Lakota Elders, and I have been guessing this is a bit of a gray area as no one is saying much one way or another. Which is why I started this thread in ect and as a discussion of general principals , not your book specifically.
I haven't read your book , so I don't know what is in it , but I see Valerie Ohle has twice mentioned you give step by step instructions on how to build a sweat lodge ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1464.0;all (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1464.0;all)
Re: John Roos, claiming enrollment with lakota nation
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2008, 10:53:26 am »
He sells a book about how to do certain things like build sweat lodges, etc.
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=25929;title=Issues%20Affecting
%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee (http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=25929;title=Issues%20Affecting
%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee)
"JC" aka "Calvin Denny" has a webpage all about himself including step-by-step photos on how to construct a sweat lodge!
And I see you don't really deny this is in there ;
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=25935;title=Issues%20Affecting%
20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee (http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=25935;title=Issues%20Affecting%
20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee)
As far as Step by step, it is BASIC knowledge that is contained in my Manuscript. My Manuscript clearly points out that in no way does this knowledge make you or anyone a medicineman, a spiritual leader, a spiritual advisor, a pipe carrier or pipe holder...it does give you understand of what a Person will have to know and understand on that Red Road, the Pipe Ways, the Sundance Road......that is better than just going into something without know what it is your going into....
As I say , I haven't read this book and I don't know if what is there is a step by step guide on basics, like how to approach an Elder and basic sweatlodge ettiquette, or if it is what Valerie says, an explanation of how to build a sweatlodge.
One thing I do see, is your book is advertised on line and your address is there and the instructions to send you $40 in exchange for the book, so I don't see how it can be true that you don't sell your manuscript to "just anyone" and it is for ndn only ...
You seem like a nice person with some good traditional teachings and I am sorry to have to bring this up .
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Freija
Hope you didn´t mind me jumping in with that info, Moma. As for the rest, I think it is a very important question although not my business....
Gosh I don't mind that you jumped in at all, and I really appreciate hearing about the contents of the "White Buffalocalf Teachings" book ! I am relieved to hear it doesn't sound like cultural exploitation, by any stretch of the imagination. As for this being none of your business, as i see it, what people read in books , becomes everyones business who knows anyone who reads one of these books. How many people have you known that have come out with a distorted commercially manufactered Shamanism idea they want to apply to a real life situation , that impacts both of you , and when you try and reason with them they insist this idea is real...
In an unfortunate way , books that distort Native culture become everybodies business .
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At first Ohle tried to interject that I had photos of Sweatlodge construction, that was a outright LIE....
I was confronting Ohle about her support of someone who claimed to be a enrolled Lakota (John Roos)....
Our face to face meeting DID resolve that issue and she knew she made a mistake and that John Roos was not a lakota.....
I do not sell ceremonies, I do not support anyone who sells ceremonies....I will answer any questions to help those who seek understanding, but they must be NDN or have NDN blood....I do not authorize anyone, NDN or Non NDN to do anything or be anything in the spiritual ways.....except themselves....
I do explain that with each pole or willow used in the sweatlodge, it represents a part of the whole, and that it also represents a attribute of the Great Spirit (16 in 1)....this basic understanding gives more meaning to everything....and I am sure that there are other deeper meanings and understandings, but what I explain is BASIC.....
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Thanks for explaining more of what is in your book. I'm sorry if someone has misrepresented what your book is about .
I don't know enough about what is considered the right way to teach these things to comment on this.
But I do see some implications in some of what you have said that makes me wonder;
Chaska
I will answer any questions to help those who seek understanding, but they must be NDN or have NDN blood....
But as far as I can see, you have no way of knowing who people are who buy your book. When people see your advertisement on line , and order a book , how can you tell who is buying this book ?
Chaska
and lastly, I just don't sell my manuscript to ANYONE.....it is for NDN only, and even if you were non NDN and got ahold of it, you wouldnt be able to understand it, because it is written in rez NDN style.....
Um Chaska.. Most people , when they misunderstand something, don't realize they misunderstand this , so what you seem to be saying here is that you don't see a problem with selling a book to people who will often totally misunderstand what you are saying and get the wrong idea, but they will think they got the right idea and argue it came from an enrolled Lakota with recognized traditional teachings. If you aren't in their lives to notice there is a misunderstanding , how will you correct this ?
Chaska
my manuscript is for NDN's who were raised off rezervation and didnt have elderly to help them understand the ways....
From what I have seen, though there is ususally underlying roots that can help guide them , most Native people raised away from their traditions have big gaps in their understanding and are just as vulnerable to misunderstanding some parts of their culture as non native people . I can see where a book might be helpful in some things ( like understanding basic history , social structure , ettiquette , learning how to avoid frauds and why exploitation isn't OK )
But beyond that I'm not sure ...
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As for this being none of your business, as i see it, what people read in books , becomes everyones business who knows anyone who reads one of these books. How many people have you known that have come out with a distorted commercially manufactered Shamanism idea they want to apply to a real life situation , that impacts both of you , and when you try and reason with them they insist this idea is real...
In an unfortunate way , books that distort Native culture become everybodies business .
I should have made my sentence longer - was in a rush. LOL
What I MEANT to say was that it is not my business where Native communities draw the line for what to teach outsiders. That must be up to each and every tribe to decide. But I thoroughly agree with you, Moma, that unfortunately each and every published "teaching" made by Native people with good hearts, for the purpose of saving those words for coming generations, is a potential New Age how-to-do-it manual. It is really, really sad!
I think all of us who are proud of our ancestry, our culture, our land, like to present it for visitors and people who are interested. Usually we take a great joy and pride in doing it and most of us would never have to worry about this information being misused. But for Native people, constantly knowing that every piece of information could be misused, sold, exploited and even turned against them..... can´t even imagine what that would be like!! It´s like giving a precious gift to someone and see that person smashing it to pieces. But it´s 100 times worse....
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I usually correspond to those who inquire about my manuscript, my email is on the site....and those who inquire usually let me know basic info about themselves and their search.....My manuscript actually dissuades people from attempting to promote themselves as something they are not, Pipe Carrier, Pipe Holder, Medicineman or Medicinewoman.....I am very careful and have to correct those who had their own interpretations or guidenence that would lead them down the path in misunderstandings. I believe that anytime knowledge is given, then the understanding must be understood and not misinterpretted....Whatever I involve myself in, I want it clear and understood...so when I come forward about these Fakes and Frauds, I will leave no stone unturned to expose them, and IF they try to counter me, I will prodouce docuementation to resolve it. In the late 70's through ceremony I was delegated by the elders and medicinemen to visit to those fake Pipe Carriers/Holders and to correct them, which I did in a good way, and before the next winter had collected over 90 Pipes from those frauding themselves and misguiding people...so that is also why I am careful but straight forward about protecting ceremonies and sacred instruments....
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I really appreciated Freija's words about how awkward it must be to have to consider how someone might misinterpret or abuse anything that is shared, if it overlaps with traditional knowledge.
For myself, when I participate here I often point out when people are not thinking things through , or doing damage they hadn't realized, and I'm sure what I say can sting . I don't ever like to hurt people , especially if this is unfair , so it's really important to me that if I criticize anyone , there is understandable underlying principals and reasons behind any criticism I may give.
I can't in good conscience say to one person, " The culture and ceremonies can't rightly be learned outside of the context of living in a Native community " , and then turn around to someone else and say, " Thats great your making money selling a book with traditional Spiritual teachings to people who won't understand because they don't live in a Native community. "
It was mostly out of concern for my own integrity - and the integrity of what is done on this message board , that I asked about this. I wanted to understand the underlying principals which guide the decision about whats OK and whats not. If it isn't clear to me it probably isn't clear to other people either.
As Feija rightly says , it is for each tribe to decide what parts of their culture can be shared through books, and I guess if the Lakota have any concerns someone will say something. I appreciate Chaskas patient responses to what may have been very rude questions. I will leave it here for the Lakota to say what is OK and what isn't.
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finally, for those NDN peoples who have my manuscript, they are free to call me with their questions or even their understandings, most often I am able to guide them to Bonafide spiritual persons who may directly help them on their path. I feel that it is best for a person to be able to help themselves first, their family, and their tribe. I always caution those that "In these Ways, we do not change the ways to accomodate ourselves, WE change ourselves for the Ways"..... with that concept then this basic knowledge helps those on the path.... these footsteps on the path doesnt happen overnight, it takes years of dedication and determination, and along that path at some point a person must correct the wrongs, by word, thought or deed, then that person has centered themselves and has learned to listen....it begins and is most beautiful.
I know of many Tribe ways and I hold deep respect of them, I believe Creator has given them these Ways, so I cannot say one is greater than the other. I do not argue the ways....yet I protect the ways...
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I'm sorry to give you a hard time because I mostly hear good things in what you say, but I still don't understand how you see this.
Chaska
I protect the ways...
But you are also selling Spiritual teachings. You are also doing this in a book and on line.
On one hand I think books and the internet is a great way to connect with people, and if people are authentic maybe all communication is a good thing. Books can travel where Elders cannot , and for someone in prison or otherwise isolated I can see a book of traditional teaching by ones own people might be a life line.
On the other hand , this is confusing to me because I've always heard books and the internet are not a good way to share Native traditions, culture or Spiritual teachings. On this message board this comes up a lot, and over and over it gets said that Spiritual teachings are not rightly bought and sold. I know self publishing is more expensive than mass production but still, at $40 a book this appears to be being sold for profit.
So , Chaska, ( or anyone else that has some thoughts on this ) you clearly say you oppose anyone selling ceremonies, but do you think it is OK to charge for Spiritual teachings ?
What effect do you think this practice has on the culture ?
Is it OK to sell Spiritual teachings if it is in a book because a book has production costs but not face to face ?
Is it OK if the teachings are "basic" and what exactly is basic and who defines that? The information about the meaning of the willow supports in the Sweat Lodge doesn't sound basic to me , but maybe it does to other people.
I understand that you are a Native person who grew up with their traditions and you do have some real knowledge and good things to share , and you say you are managing to only sell your book to people of Native blood, and from what I have seen of you, I have the impression you sincerely mean well. I see your website does have an email for questions and answers and that you have some responsibility towards people you are sharing with.
But I'm still not clear why is it OK for you to sell Spiritual teachings , in a book , and on line , but it isn't OK for someone else to do this ? Do you think it is OK for everybody who is Native and who has some real traditional knowledge to to do this ? What would make it not OK ?
It would help with protection if you could clarify this. Could you please explain how you see this ?
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Hi Moma
I do have to say I am mixed, I am Lakota and Dakota.
We are now living in a different world today where people
are trying to find a balance between the written word and our
oral ways.
I have been requested to write a book but it is of history.
I am fight myself bewteen putting my stories down in words where
the world can interrupt or misinterrupt my words. Or where my stories
will be the same one I was taught.
It is hard to write about our people in best way we know without touching
on our spirituality because it is in everything. Everything has meaning.
Our people are looking for ways to do this but written word has always
been a problem for us.
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These experiences I write, are my own, basic knowledge to digest....It is not teachings to make anyone anything other than the example given to me. My life is used as example from the earliest memories to the 80's....If my life can be a example to help others, then so be it....those helpers of my life along the way and their wisdom is what I share.....my life is far from perfect and I have corrected my mistakes, and have paid for my mistakes, I do all I can to protect the ways, the ceremonies, our spiritual peoples.....because in MY life it is the foundation that has helped me through trials and tribulations. So, if this basic knowledge in my life has helped me, then I know it will help my NDN people, those who didnt have a Grandfather, Grandmother, uncles/aunties, Tiospeye, to help them know basic knowledge, help those who were not raised on reseveration..... so now my explanation is done, anything more then I would believe I am target in a witch hunt...lol
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Chaska
Although I used your book as an example , my search for clarification was not specifically directed at you. I'm sorry you feel my questions border on being a witch hunt.
You are advertising yourself as a Spiritual teacher, in conjunction with stuff for sale. Usually that is a big red flag. Questions are fair.
Though you know who you are , all I see is what is on line. It seems to me , if we say one person who is an enrolled Indian who is selling Spiritual teaching is an exploiter, and someone else who is an enrolled Indian who is selling Spiritual teachings is a friend and protecter of ceremonies , people won't understand and respect what is being said here , if we aren't clear what the difference is.
That said , I am guessing if there was any serious concern about what you are doing, Earth , who is in touch with Elders in her Lakota / Dakota community , and who obviously deeply cares about the preservation of her culture , *would probably say* something . (*edited from "would have said", as I shouldn't assume ...) So as far as what you are doing personally , it isn't any of my business to comment on one way or another. Believe me I could say more than I have .... LOL
(referring more to my big mouth than anything that needs to be said about Chaska )
What I am hearing in the replies so far, is that there isn't really strong traditional precedents for how to use the written word, and there is mixed feelings on this. Native people should be able to write about themselves and their experiences without having to worry that something Spiritual might be in there and they are selling their culture or some traditional wisdom , but it is hard to know when information shared might be misused.
I can see it is totally unrealistic to think any traditionalist could write a book about themselves or their community , without Spiritual teachings coming through in some way . As Earth says , for Native people , Spirituality is in everything. Obviously it would be wrong to insist Native people shouldn't write or sell books, because their Spirituality might be in there. I said that in my first post.
I can also see where books with accurate and authentic information can help preserve culture and traditions, and with all the wrong information on Spiritual traditions out there, books with the right information might be a good thing.
So , I guess there is no cause for concern , as long as the Native people concerned with protecting their culture have no objections, and the information is authentic and accurate. (?)
What I notice, is things tend to go off the rails when the Spiritual teachings get seperated from the ordianary day to day things and history , and a book gets written that is advertised as about "Spiritual teachings" , as if this is something which can be seperated out from the day to day life and history of ones community. I'm not saying things always go off the rails at that point, but that does seem to be the frequently slippery point of departure.
I know I have a book I treasure , that I bought , that was written about a tribal history by the tribe. The Spirituality comes through , especially in a couple personal stories that are told, but it is the ordinary life and culture and history that are the focus of this book , not Spiritual teachings. The creation of this book was supported by many tribal leaders and Elders, and it never struck me as wrong that those stories were included in there.
I can see where it is complicated and can be hard to say if there is a clear right and wrong in all situations ...
Sorry to be so nit picky about how exploitation is defined, but it really can be pretty confusing.
Well blah blah blah... hopefully I will shut up now... for a while ...
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I have to say that it has been a big discussion here with the elders.
There was book wrote about Arvol Looking Horse have been condemn becase
people interrupt only what they want, even though Avrol did not write
the book himself.
These are very important issues that we face. How do we find a balance
with who we are and our history and stories?
On hand people want to hear the real history
but we can't tell a story without all of our world around us.
If tell people our stories orally then they take and write them down
and copyright our history so our stories are no longer ours.
Or they make up their own stories about who we are just like the
many people who are frauds and steal what is the very center of
who we are.
There are no easy answers.
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the way I see it-
selling a book in which you speak directly about your life experiances, including spiritual is far different than selling a step by step "how to" book.
To talk about the why of a ceremony and what you experianced during is far different than talking about how-"to perform this ceremony first you... then you....".
To sell a book that says "This is who we are, this is what we believe, this is why others should not attempt to engage in our ceremonies... etc" is not in any way the same as someone selling an instruction book, or charging someone to participate in a ceremony.
One is educational, and the other is exploitive. for the educational, before publishing have trusted friends both ndn and non read it, and ask them to write down questions the book raises, or points that need to be clarified. then use their input to make it better.
for earth, if i might make a suggestion- video.
you can make a video without expensive equiptment. you just need a computer with a dvd burner, a digital camera ( i have a cheap one I paid $20 for, the pictures are not real great, but when used as a video camera on my comp, it works great.) and a microphone.
I suggest working with the Elders to come up with a list of topics to discuss, and then stage an interview. have one of the Elders ask you about each topic, and you then can answer. I also suggest answering in your own language, and have someone to interpret into english.
this way future generations will be able to hear the language as well as have some thing to watch. most people would rather watch a movie than read a book these days, so the odds of them actualy taking the time to watch as opposed to reading a book are much better. you could also have someone transcribe the interview into your language and english. This way you not only have a written record, an audio/video record, but you also have something that the Elders have approved so you don't have to worry that you are sharing things you should not. and since the video can be edited, if it is decided that something should not be shared, you can easily cut it out.
just a thought.
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I suggest working with the Elders to come up with a list of topics to discuss, and then stage an interview. have one of the Elders ask you about each topic, and you then can answer. I also suggest answering in your own language, and have someone to interpret into english.
this way future generations will be able to hear the language as well as have some thing to watch. most people would rather watch a movie than read a book these days, so the odds of them actualy taking the time to watch as opposed to reading a book are much better. you could also have someone transcribe the interview into your language and english. This way you not only have a written record, an audio/video record, but you also have something that the Elders have approved so you don't have to worry that you are sharing things you should not. and since the video can be edited, if it is decided that something should not be shared, you can easily cut it out.
just a thought.
And then someone on the rez will get hold of it and sell it to the New Age market and it will be copied and distributed all over Europe - and this "someone" (or "someone´s" European friend who all of a sudden became a shaman) will tour around with it. It doesn´t matter if it is things that Elders are comfortable with sharing because it will most likely be twisted and turned into something completely different.
I have seen that happen, exactly this way. So....didn´t mean to sound negative, guess I´ve just seen too much of what is going on over here.
But maybe it´s the best way to do it and take the consequences. Like Earth said, there are no easy answers.
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true, people will use anything to take advantage of others and/or make money. this will most likely happen no matter what you do, say, print or video. someone will use it for other than it's intended purpose.
in this situation, you have to ask yourself which is more important- makeing sure that future generations of your people(no matter the tribe) is able to learn the true ways directly from someone who has lived it, or the fear of someone using what you do/make/print/record for their own selfish use. this is what you have to ask yourself.
"is recording(written, video, audio, etc) my peoples heritage for those that will come so they can learn the truth from someone that has lived it more important than someone using the information for wrong purposes?" "does the benefit outweigh the risk?"
In the end, we cannot control what others do. Only what we do. If we do nothing for fear someone may steal it and use for selfish purposes, then every ceremony needs to be no longer performed. after all, it is possible someone may sneak in and watch, then go and sell it to make money.
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While we have done that and have archived many of our elders stories
they are kept at the college.
I was just talking about my stories that i tell.
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I think I'm a little confused by this, also. I'm glad Moma started this thread. Why is it okay for some to write about their life and their beliefs, but not okay for others? Why is it appropriate for some to sell their sacred stories, but not appropriate for others? When does someone become a plastic shaman?
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BLS there is a difference between someone writting down and selling a book talking about their own spiritual journey, ceremonies they have participated in, and what they experianced during those ceremonies as an educational book for their own people, or even for the public at large so people can know the difference between what teh fakes claim and what is true, as well as make a record for generations to come as opposed to writting such a book to get followers and line your pockets.
In the second type, these books are usually expensive as they are designed to make money. In the first type, the cost of the book would be to cover production cost (printing, shipping, etc).
in the first, the person writing might talk about the ceremonies, but would not give a "this is how it is done" section. while in the second the person would.
and for earth- I truly believe that you should write. I think as long as you do not give out any details of the ceremonies, it would be fine. and if you mention how much it bothers you about that fakes that steal and sell ceremony, even if someone did leak it to the public, it could serve as a very useful tool when someone encounters one of these frauds.
for instance someone meets someone claiming to lead a lakota (insert ceremony here) for only $50, they could say
"I read a book by an actual lakota who said that a real medicine man/woman would never charge for ceremony, and that sometimes non lakota may take part in (insert ceremony here) but that the ceremony you are advertising is for lakota only, and you are obviously german, so why are you selling something you shouldn't be, and offering something that is for the lakota only to anyone with $50?"
It could also help to counter so much of the false ideas of what native americans are that many people have.
you could even make two versions, one for your people only, and an edited version for the general public. as long as it was not announced that there are 2 versions, no one will ever know. just another thought.
But if you have any serious doubts, then I would suggest not doing it. perhaps you should pray about it and see what happens. prayer is always a good idea before making any such choices.
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I was really hoping someone more knowledgeable of Lakota traditions than I am would answer BSL. I don't entirely agree with Matte's answer , and I'm actually worried about some vulnerable people getting led astray ...
I am thinking maybe one difference is in the balance of the work , and whether too much emphasis is placed on the woo woo stuff ....
So on one hand you have the book "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions," which I haven't read , but which sounds like it talks about this man's whole life, and does not sound like it promotes a false image of himself as just a Spiritual man, or try to attract people looking for a thrill or to get some power ... ( though I believe exploiters have managed to find a way to exploit this book and perhaps even the man it was written about )
http://www.wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/lamedeer.html (http://www.wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/lamedeer.html)
Colonialism in North America did not stop with the Revolution of 1776. It had new names: "Westward expansion", "Manifest Destiny"; but those who were called pioneers still did the same things based on the same values that caused colonialism in the first place. The text, Lame Deer Seeker of Visions was originally published in 1972 and is the story of both Lame Deer and the Lakota nation as they were affected by our expansion. It gives us the history and brings us up to date on the continued oppression of America's native population
The Authors
John (Fire) Lame Deer was born around the turn of the last century on the Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota. He is a full-blooded Sioux and has been many things in his life including a rodeo clown, a painter, a sheep herd, and a thief. Above all, though, he was a Lakota holy man.
In Lame Deer, we are seeing the result of five hundred years of colonization and expansion on one person.
(con...)
And on the other hand you have something like Carlos Castenada books which are obviously both fictional and exploitive as unlike real life they focus on thrilling and extraordianary events .
It seems to me that any book or person claiming to present Spiritual teachings would focus on morals and values, not sensational miracles or how amazing they are.
I'm not sure if it is correct that the Lakota word for White man is fat taker, but it that is true, it pretty much hits the nail on the head. Plastics want to attract fat takers so what they serve up is 90 percent fat and 10 percent bacon , people with a real Spirituality suffused throughout their lives tend to offer stories which are 90 percent bacon and 10 percent fat .
In my opinion , sharing stuff like this , is sure to encourage stupid ideas that Native people are all like the people in Carlos Castenada books - and attract woowoo nuts
http://bigfootsightings.org/2007/03/31/should-bigfoot-researchers-care-about-shape-shifting-reports/ (http://bigfootsightings.org/2007/03/31/should-bigfoot-researchers-care-about-shape-shifting-reports/)
I am Native American, raised up by my Grandfather and Grandmother, not by circumstance, but by choice, they took me everywhere and was witness to the “Old Ways??? of our Native People on our Mother Earth. Shape Shifting is a Travelling Form used by those who know the Medicine Ways, Medicine Lodge societies…I have witnessed this and know how powerful it is, yet it is something normal to the Medicine people, it is their way of travelling long distances to gather certain herbs, roots and natural medicines. They can assume animal shapes for shorter distances and also become a pure sphere of light for longer distances, about as big as a common basketball, pulsating like breathing….The ones called Bigfoot have many powers besides shape shifting, they can read a persons mind, they can mimic any sound, they can communicate mentally with each other and to certain people who are sensitive. They know of this world and what is going on with us, they avoid what we do and keep themselves hidden, unless they want you to see them, then they show themselves. Is it no wonder then WHY none have been captured? because they know your thoughts and can read thoughts in about a 5 mile radius.
Comment by Chaska Denny — June 21, 2007 @ 4:57 am
( and there is more... Also I see on the web page, Chaska's name is a link to his web page ... )
While it is certainly possible some Medicine People occaisionally shape shift , this isn't the mode of travel of any of the Medicine People I've ever known , which is why it is customary to pay a traditional teachers travel expenses. I very much doubt this is how Chaska delivers his books.
The more I dig, the more I think I probably should have posted this situation under research needed , but when something involves a person enrolled in their Nation and living close enough to their Nation for their Nation to respond , I prefer to leave it to people more knowledgeable than myself .
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I am thinking maybe one difference is in the balance of the work , and whether too much emphasis is placed on the woo woo stuff ....
Thanks, Moma. I've been thinking the same thing. Too much sensationalism, too much emphasis on the mystical, and you're sure to attract every fake and flake out there. Twinkies and new agers aren't interested in the day-to-day.
The more I dig, the more I think I probably should have posted this situation under research needed , but when something involves a person enrolled in their Nation and living close enough to their Nation for their Nation to respond , I prefer to leave it to people more knowledgeable than myself .
Can the thread be moved to Research Needed? I know I'm a new member here, but I think this needs to be examined a little more closely.
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Although I have never seen a bigfoot, I know many who have, I also know of the travelling form of Medicine people who use this form of travel.....Many Tribes know and understand this.....these pecularities of BigFoot were what the elders spoke about...nothing secret....I believe anything is possible when concerned with Medicines...it is up to the individual how they use it.....either for good or bad.....to discipline or to hurt.....all these options are decisions left up to the individual.....we all want the good, but there will always be someone in the crowd to upset things, but thats human nature.....I believe that if a person doesnt know the answer, then ask, but use the protocols in place to do so....
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After reading all the sites i have to wonder about all of this.
Hey I live on Standing Rock, i was here when Big Foot came
to Little Eagle. i am around all the spiritual leader up here
and never heard of your claims of medicienmen shiftchanging.
I know of certain people who have the gift but very few
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I do not know of any medicinemen who shapeshift up in Standing Rock and never heard of them being able to do it...but I do know of Medicine people (Medicine Lodge) who do, but thats not anywhere near standing rock.......decades ago in Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, this was common knowledge (to know of shapeshifters), and in old days Warriors fought that way sometimes.....this is only a travelling form.....
There are many Tribes who know of this and some still do it....that is why it is best to respect others where ever you go because you dont know what they know......I also know from the Elders that those who were connected to Medicine lodge ways and used this travelling form, were the ones to keep the unruly in place.....I guess those tribes that did this travelling form mainly used it to gather medicines from long distances.......I do not know IF this travelling form is the same as skinwalkers.......
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what is medicine lodge??????
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Ask Mama Porcupine
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LOL..... (generalized example) Medicine Lodge is Anceint ways, a society of clans within a Tribe, who utilize natural medicines, the root, the stem, the branch, the flower, the seed, the whole plant to help in the healing of sickness or symtoms, for wounds, and curing of certain sickness's....The knowledge of the plants, was given by the Animal Nations and Plant Nations to the NDN people, the Medicine lodge societies have feasts and ceremonies year around and became the central foundation for many Tribes, Woodland Tribes.....this is a generalized description of Medicine Lodge, in order to understand more a person would need to talk to the elders who understand this and or a member of the Medicine lodge societies......
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LOL..... (generalized example) Medicine Lodge is Anceint ways, a society of clans within a Tribe, who utilize natural medicines, the root, the stem, the branch, the flower, the seed, the whole plant to help in the healing of sickness or symtoms, for wounds, and curing of certain sickness's....The knowledge of the plants, was given by the Animal Nations and Plant Nations to the NDN people, the Medicine lodge societies have feasts and ceremonies year around and became the central foundation for many Tribes, Woodland Tribes.....this is a generalized description of Medicine Lodge, in order to understand more a person would need to talk to the elders who understand this and or a member of the Medicine lodge societies......
I posted but decided to change it I think you should PM me.
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have sent you PM and yahoo messenger...waiting for confirmation from you
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Tansi;
I personally do not have a problem with people writing stories, in spite of the fact that written words can be abused, by some. One of the reasons that I have allowed some of the stories that were given to me, by my father, to be used in an educational facility, is that I had not been hearing these, for some time and did not want them to be lost.
My wife has also shared some of her stories, in a project that was initiated by a Metis Cultural Heritage and education organization. A very dear friend of ours, Maria Campbell, has also written many of her stories, as well.
Many of our Traditional stories have a great deal of relevance, in ways of teaching values and valuable lessons. It would be a great loss, if they were not passed on or saved, in some manner, such as in writing.
We, as a people, have had periods of suppression of our Culture, lasting genrations, during which many of our stories were lost. To have them preserved, would help to allow those yet to come, to learn of our vibrant Cultures and instill the Pride necessary for moving forward and surviving.
Currently, due to distances involved, we do not have as much contact with our Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren, as we would like and which was possible when people lived in the same communities for life, so having written the stories down, our children and grandchildren will be able to tell these stories to their children.
Just my opinion.
Ric
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Tansi;
I would be interested in what Educated Indian's views on this are, since he possibly uses written materials in his educational purposes.
Ric
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I actually have my US History Part I class take a look at the Univ Az guidelines for Native websites and give them a long warning about exploiters and imposters. They have an option of doing a research paper on Native science and technology. A couple of them going into the health fields have written papers on Native medicine being integrated into today's healthcare, and I have to take an extra close look at their sources.
These topics come up a couple other times during classes. I've mentioned prophecies about the coming of whites, how spiritual traditions were used to unite NDNs by leaders such as Hiawatha and the Open Door (Tecumseh's brother), and the Hopi prophecy predicting the A bomb and the United Nations.
In general I'm reluctant to use written texts for anything less than a senior or graduate level class because they could so easily misinterpreted or misused. I generally just give them a general description of my own. And I always have to give them warnings about how (for example) many sites out there MISinterpret Banyacya.
All of the above is because, even when I taught at Arizona State, the classes are over 90% non-Native. If I taught at a tribal college it'd be entirely different. And professors who teach other types of courses have different issues. I know of some lit professors who insist on using Native traditional stories for their courses, but have to time them. Some stories aren't meant to be told at certain times of the year.
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Tansi;
Thank you, Al, I felt that your input would be meaningful and it was, to me anyway.
I had noticed that there are a couple of my stories, on the internet, since I contributed them to a friend who teaches "Story Telling" in an online course. Our friend is Dene (Dogrib) and I have faith in his values and methods. The decision to contribute to this educational process was not made with a serious consideration of money, even though they paid a small "honorarium" for my sharing of these stories, for use in education.
I believe that there must be Real stories, available in order to have alternatives to those that have been pirated and retold, often incorrectly, by non Natives.
Ric
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I think writing down stories that convey cultural values is different from writing down details of ceremonies.
I also think that it's ok to write down personal experiences that mention ceremonies, as long as the details aren't given. "I went to this ceremony, here's what it meant to me personally. This is why it's important that the ceremony be run in a traditional way, by those trained in the appropriate manner, etc."
Which of course still puts me in a difficult situation, personally. The reason those of us in Gaelic traditions are having to reconstruct most of the ceremonies is that very few details were written down. We still have the mythology, but only fragments or sketchy details of many ceremonies. On the one hand, I sometimes share the ceremonies I've reconstructed with the public, in hopes of getting people involved in the culture and working to preserve the sacred sites and languages. I also hope that if white people of my cultural heritage see that we have a spiritual history of our own, they won't feel compelled to steal from NDNs, or make stuff up and claim it's authentic. On the other hand, I'm reluctant to share publicly, because things get abused. So I try to find a balance - sharing basic things, keeping more involved things only among those I trust and work with in person. It's not an easy thing to always know what to do. I struggle with it almost every day, to one extent or another.
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I also think that it's ok to write down personal experiences that mention ceremonies, as long as the details aren't given. "I went to this ceremony, here's what it meant to me personally. This is why it's important that the ceremony be run in a traditional way, by those trained in the appropriate manner, etc."
Even that can be tricky though , because ones persons experience in a ceremony might be very different than another persons, and what might be appropriate for one person to experience in a ceremony might be really different than what is appropriate for another person to experience. If one person hears another persons experience it can color their experience or expectations and instead of being a help it can work more as a distraction from them connecting with what is right for them. I would think this might be especially true if we were to share our personal special experiences with a wide audience through a book.
I recently had an experience where I told a close friend about something that had happened at a very difficult time in my life that was very special to me and really helped me . This hadn't happened in a ceremony , but it did make me feel like the Creator was very much a part of my life. And a couple times as I told this story , my friend said "Oh I wish something like that would happen to me". That made me realize what I shared from my own experience was probably more for my own enjoyment than for my friend, and maybe what I shared hurt my friend more than helped them. Because what happened to me was special because it was right for me, not someone else. Thinking about what was talked about in this thread made me think of that...
I guess it's hard to say what is always right and always wrong in a situation like that, and it probably varies.
But I do agree, if there is no objections, that writing traditional stories down can do a lot to help preserve them and in many cases the benefits might outweigh the potential for abuse...
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As I read there was also a quite specific case attached to this question. But I am also interested in the direct meaning of this question and would just like to add that to the quite big majority of more or less non-religious people of the global technological civilization any information about "spiritual" or cultural ideas come from the books and written or in some other way organized "teaching" material - lectures, websites, documentaries, etc. Most of us also don't use it to recreate some rituals, but just to understand the diversity of the world and the various cultural and spiritual ideas better or at least to be informed what all people came upon and thought of.
As I've seen here and on some other sites in the last few months NA indigenous people are quite protective of their culture, so I don't know if any authentic written account about the "technologic" procedings of their spiritual ways will ever be given. Like - publicly passing down the knowledge of the past - or really write down the authentic "philosophy", accumulated knowledge of their (your) ancestors.
Books written by authentic elders, "medicine men" or any other culturally important and knowledgable persons - about authentic issues. Where any particular spiritual/cultural knowledge exists, ofcourse. We should not be interested in something, just because it is NDN... or "european" if you want...
Maybe it is really all too connected to the specific nation, but when we all participate in a global media like internet, rules start to change. Want it or not - what everyone writes is absorbed, interpreted and used or abused by hundreds or thousands of others.
Now - being afraid that authentic information could be misunderstood or abused is probably reasonable, but it is not really practical - because this can only isolate or silence an important voice. And give way for thousands of fake voices.
Probably most of the "european" philosopher's ideas are misunderstood by vast majority of people, but that doesn't mean it would be better that they would never write it. If Marx wouldn't write his ideas there would probably never be communist states or much would play differently, but that would also mean that capitalism would never had any competitor and would not have to rethink its agressive ways... etc. Well, speculations aside - ideas and their misunderstanding can be dangerous, but hiding knowledge is even worse!
I think it is important that ideas are written down and passed to the masses, regardless of the effects. Do we only want to "survive the life" or live it in all the ways possible? Mistakes, evil-doing, harm, pain and death are part of life. We cannot escape that. Censorship and hiding the truth and ideas from people is worse than those things in my opinion.
I would love to read a quality "NDN" philosophy book instead of any of those colourful self-help through "noble-savage" ways quasi spiritual booklets... (that I don't read btw, :) )
I don't care about shape-shifting or any other superstitious bull-shit if there is no meaning attached to it and it is unreliable or "sold" in some book as a means to itself...
But if there is really something extraordinary in some culture I am interested what it is all about. I would not ignore it. I would want to know what do they mean by it. How do they use it.. Why...
I was also wondering - sometimes when there is speaking about cultural appropriation... and "white-men" taking all the fat - I guess capitalist culture is like that, yes...
But I thought about my own (or yours, or anybody's) interests... Are you primarily interested in the problems of the many poor and unemployed in my obscure part of the world or are you interested (culturally) in music of Mozart (or Schoenberg or Fennesz or whoever) that lived (or live) some 300km from here where I write or scientific method developed mostly in Europe or maybe scientific achievements and ideas of Nikola Tesla, that lived in my town for a year and studied some years 80km from where I live... He is one of the geniuses that made technological society possible - also that we use electricity in such ways that we can communicate through internet, etc. You are not interested in thousands of raped and killed people in Srebrenica some 500km from where I live - you probably were for the five minutes it was making the News, but mostly you (we) are interested in science, culture, etc. from any part of the world. The FAT of the world if you will...
I questioned my motives (whose else could I?) - and yes, I was never specially interested how everyday NDNs live today - I knew distantly that it is probably a bad situation and knew little something about the reservations, but my interest was probably the same as is anybody's from (let's say) USA in the (let's say) current situation in Congo... you probably don't know much about it - it is not on headlines right now, it is not interesting to us and 100 years ago there would be no means of communication letting us know anything about that so quickly and instantly...
As I questioned my interests I admitted to myself that I am, too, interested in cultural "fat" - in cultural and/or spiritual ideas... Actually not really in "yours" (meaning NA indigenous), since I know too little about you - but this little that I am interested in your existance, I am surely not primarily concerned what average NDN is thinking, but what the rich culture of your different people realized through millenia... What is your message.. but authentic one - not some prophecies and superstitions and new-agey interpretations, etc.
So, yes... A good read written by your authentic "spiritual leaders" would certainly not be exploitation but a very good education. Esp. if the income doesn't end in some rich publishing companies' pocket but in authors' and his communities'.
Our misunderstaning is then entirely up to us (readers)...
And about the usage of such knowledge... I also disbelief and find mildly useless (except for some people's personal satisfaction and fun) any form of spiritual reconstructionism, mimicking, "playing", etc.
I think authentic knowledge and new "spiritual ways" whatever that is, can occur at any time in history...
And realise that many of the "traditional" teachnigs are often also superstitions or some dogmatic or "preserved" form of conduct...
I belive that what is important are the basic underlying ideas of those concepts, rites, rituals, etc.
It looks idiotic to me for some Europeans to try to fake sun dance or vision quests or try to become "brujos" in Castaneda fake way, etc.
But understanding the philosphy behind your authentic rites, the Truth behind your cultural and spiritual ideas, that is what matters... and that can be incorporated in any culture... and not being exploatation, but understanding and even cultural evolution and progress in the ideal realization...
And yes - culture can get distorted, but have we (you) really come to the end of history (as Hegel would say)?
Things change, evolve, get new meanings, probably some really great ideas and basic truths stay, much around them change eternally...
If a "wrong" (not belonging to the specific area, etc.) group of people is conducting a "ceremony" in a slightly "technologically" different way is probably less bad than not having any idea of the philosophy and underlying concepts needed for doing it in the first place - and i am not talking about the new-agers - but the wish to preserve the "historically accurate", never-changing way of any culture... it is impossible I guess - and also meaningless. But letting people know the real "secrets" - WHY (not how) doing those things in the first place, is much more important and meaningful in today's global world of super fast and diverse media...
If you know what is oxygen deprivation and increased heat good for - what do you want to and can achieve this way - is more meaningful to me than writing a subjective account of a certaing ritual in the sweat-lodge or giving away the instructions how to construct one... What is the meaning and basic idea, not what is the form is what's important and educational !! Ideas and concepts are universal and can be shared, but the FORM and conduct of specific rituals and forms of praise, worship, etc. are much less meaningful to the people not belonging to the specific culture - and I guess here lie many problems and misunderstandings... We don't need our own or anybody's rituals, we all need some more understanding of the many cultural - scientific and spiritual concepts already available today in the world and many more probably coming...
just my 2 cents as they say on the net...
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I think there several things to be considered when dealing with another culture's spirituality, namely respect, issues of understanding and issues of trying to apply the spirtual power that culture. Respect can be taught and should be an inherent part of anyone's upbringing and it can be learned later in life too. Respect can be strong and well developed, and should be. Understaning the power of another culture's 'medicine' is another matter. IMO, it is a limited thing that takes a while and remains very incomplete by nature of the culture, DNA, etc etc. In short, this understanding can only go so far no matter how many books are read, how many people one talks with and how much observation one does. The underlying question to be asked with the issue of understanding is why? Why the great need and what is the deficit of one's own spirituality that pushes one towards another way? I think many seekers don't understand and haven't really questioned their own spiritual deficiency and taken steps to strenghten it. Lastly, IMO, there can be no real application of the real 'medicine ways' of another culture by an outsider, other than some geralized herbal applications. Even with herbs, the efficacy and the sharing of their power with us is contingent on many things other than simple plucking and preparing them. I have yet to see a white medicine man and never will, though many take great pains to pretend they are. Funny, when I was in Africa, I never came across anyone wanting to be a Maribou or Sarrin (medicine person). Lastly, IMO the luxary of comparative analysis and making a pot pourri out of the old time spiritual ways is limited to but a few, as most people neither have a need, the desire, nor the time and resources to do so.
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I really liked your post, Kevin and I should apologize for being a little trigger happy with rudeness in another thread... When I see too many "witches", etc. mentioned or in another thread attacking some other person with un-asked for, but detailed animal skinning and other preparations seemed suspicious to me... But you write also many good things..
Actually I agree with your post almost completely. Only few details... I speak from a point of the non-religious person(s)... we don't have codified spirituality, we just belong to a certain cultural sphere (that is becoming increasingly global and ideas were exchanged already in the past). People like that usually build their "spirituality" (there is an inherent need in most of us to have those feelings and ideas I guess) from universal metaphysical ideas that we don't take for granted but rethink over and over again...
If you don't have a strong contact with another culture and are not part of it there is really no way to really adopt its formal ways.. I agree. And there is no need to...
But I don't see the diverse people of the world as different cultures underneath the form - I think similar ideas are forming all over the world, only execution and level of understanding is a little different. I think we know much too little about the real nature of reality to stop searching around the globe - especially now when it is possible...
And here our ideas (and ideas of many new-agers) differ - I am interested in knowledge not ceremony... In meaning, not form. In "what is it all about?" not "how to". And I see this as the foremost day-to-day concern, after supplying food and shelter.
Ideas and concepts are deeper than the cultural forms that apply them... and this can be shared in my belief.
And it is also a way of direct approach - naked ideas can be applied to different forms, while only mimicking ceremonies not - it is meaningless and I agree - also disrespectful.
On the other hand the "herbs", that you (Kevin) mentioned again, can also induce the direct experience even without a mediator (medicine-man, etc.) and cultural context - it just works, acts - like love, sex, etc. - there are different rituals surrounding those two in different cultures, but the basic mechanisms and feelings are the same for all. And you can interpret those experiences according to your culture and understanding - they can reveal your subconscious and even trans-personal (like coming outside of your inner dialogue) ideas. But this is really a tricky subject and what can be achieved with their use is very dependant on a person that uses them I guess...
There are very many good and authentic books on different Asian systems of belief that can be read outside their religious context - as philosophy of ideas that can be applied in your way (not making up new fake rituals - instant yoga, tantra, etc...which is also done unfortunately) but understanding their point and finding your way to apply it in your life... And not only moral code (which is more than similar in Buddhism and Christianity), but explanations of reality, human psychology, etc.
I am certainly not satisfied with only a judeo-christian description of reality, while the scientific one does not address all the aspects of life... Especially when we have a unique opportunity to read Vedic literature, Taoist classics, Suzuki and other contemporary zen buddhist scholars and philosophers... This is not another culture to me - these are very good and universally applicable and valid ideas that we can try to understand and be more or less inspired and enlightened by them! And we don't have to shave our heads, join monasteries, become lamas, etc. There are ofcourse also very good and more thought through and un-dogmatic "christian" texts - like slovene philosopher Tine Hribar's unique dealing with Christianity in "Nietzsche's Gospel"...
But this cannot be viewed as our culture anymore - this is global intellectual culture...
As little as I could glimpse into american indigenous culture I belive they have a very powerful philosophy that can surely be explained in an appropriate way to write it down - avoiding directly "selling out" the rituals, etc.
But on the other hand - yes - as I realized and also Jung mentioned in one of his books - that NA indigenous (he met with "Pueblo Indians") have a really strong feeling of sacred - they don't just throw religious secrets around to anyone and so their spiritual ways remain more sacred - reserved for the initiated, the closed community and this mistery gives them more importance, dignity, power and meaning. It is not so profane. But probably also much have changed through years... Or not? Maybe it is really best to keep it that way. And not "throw pearls to the pigs". I don't know. I believe in sharing ideas and expanding knowledge, but maybe this (NA indigenous culture) is really a special case? You all know probably more abut that...
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For lack of better word(s), the old time earth spirituality is very much alive here in America with traditional NA cultures, in Austrailia, in South America, Africa and in remote places in Europe, even in the Orient. Natural barriers and sheer distance served to sustain the ceremony and ritual, the power of the various medicine ways but unique and distinct to each culture are the plants and animals and geographical features, an intricate part of an interactive circle. Take the person from the environment and much of the power goes away too IMO and likewise, attempt to insert something from another culture and its power is gone , i.e. A braid of sweet grass would be of no use and little meaning to say a Jola Sarrin from Senegal. We like to think technology with its real time circumvents natural barriers and distance and brings people closer togather and fosters better understanding and appreciation. I'm not so sure of that because it is man's use of technology that is changing the weather, making things go extinct, radically changing behaviors of animals and bringing about mass killing of human beings. All these wannabes and crooks are essentially what I call earth rippers, those with a conquest mindset believing they have an inherent right to use and exploit anything they want in any way they want. If anything, technology is constricting the medicine ways of various cultures, making them tighten the circle around themselves in a survival mode, protecting their ceremonies. Until man can better control the use of technology, all ceremonies of all cultures should be off limits to non-cultural members and large areas of wildnerness areas should be off limits to all people - let the tourists stay on the paved roads they have made and look out through the glass windows they have made and see what they have excluded themselves from.
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A braid of sweet grass would be of no use and little meaning to say a Jola Sarrin from Senegal.
Well - that is talking about the specific cultural FORMS... and quite obscure ones... I think NA indigenous have much more substantial ideas to share than just sweet grass braids... But even so - if he would understand what is it good for - yes it would be of use to him... because it is not only something abstractly ritual - it is practical...
Your reasoning scares me a little I must admit. Such a world as you describe would look like a prison and it would establish "caste mentality" - born a beggar, die a beggar, born ignorant, die ignorant, born without Reason, die without Reason... and establish collective guilt...
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I did start out using some of what Chaska was doing as an example , but underneath this is some more general questions about what kind of teachings can be effectively shared in books and what can't be.
I am still trying to sort my own thoughts out on this...
AH, I think you are right in your idea that there is some core principles which can be shared , but perhaps the underlying assumption that there is riches that can be mined from other cultures is tinged with some colonialism.
One thing it seems people tend to overlook , is that in the outward sense , most indigenous peoples opportunities for new experiences were extremely limited. So if people look at indigenous peoples and feel they have wisdom, it is probably important to remember they didn't get this wisdom from an individual pursuit of knowledge from other cultures or adopting a blend of Spiritual practices from around the world. It seems to me what is closer to the core of the wisdom of indigenous peoples is a deep and persistant respect for being where they are.
So while I think that respect and thankfulness are a "Spiritual technology" that could be transfered to another culture or situation ,and that appropriate knowledge does develop when people make a practice of doing this , the secrets of purifying yourself before hunting or talking to the Spirits of the Buffalo probably isn't going to be a lot of help to someone living in New York city.
Another example of how something appropriate to one culture is inappropriate to another might be the practice of animal sacrifice. In a culture that has a close relationship with domesticated animals which it also butchers and eats, a ceremony of animal sacrifice might be a good way of making this right , but for someone living in New York , it would be a bit goulish.
Many of the inside secrets of a culture can't be learned in a real way without a lifetime or even a family background of actually living in that culture.
From what I see , most of the people wanting to learn this sort of cultural inside information are approaching this as consumers and colonists looking to lay claim to one more area to mine for treasures. Not all are greedy , some are just desperately poor , but it is the same colonial mentality that brought non native people to these shores in the first place.
Almost always these people seem to be looking to escape from where they really are, because they aren't feeling Respectful or Thankful for where the Creator put them, or they are not rising to the challenge of finding a good way to be where the Creator put them.
I don't have any indepth knowledge and I only understand very basic things, but it seems to me this desire to leave where you are is the opposite of the core Spiritual values of most indigenous people.
On the other hand, learning about other cultures, which have different values, social structures and beliefs can be beneficial. When cultures have similarities , often seeing these in a different context, that we haven't grown up taking for granted, can help us identify important fundamental values. Some of these values we may want to strengthen, and sometimes there is underlying beliefs that could be rethought. Learning about different cultures can be like visiting different peoples homes and seeing new and innovative ways to improve your own. This borrowing seems to work as far as technological innovations like how to make a better mouse trap , or even social improvements - for instance learning from cultures that don't use physical punishment, that sparing the rod does not spoil the child.
Information about some plant medicines is another thing that might be transferable, but it is important that indigenous people's right to maintain, protect and benefit from their own knowledge is respected , and sharing this knowledge is truly mutually beneficial.
So I guess it all depends on what sort of exchange of knowledge and technologies is being attempted, and if this is something that can be conveyed in a book without losing so much context it becomes distorted.
I hope this makes sense - as I say I am just in the process of sorting out my own thoughts on this ... I only understand very basic stuff so if anyone with more knowledge feels any of this is wrong I hope they will say so.
I'm a bit ashamed of myself to have written so many long posts in this thread. I probably could have been more concise if I had known what I was trying to say sooner...
There is a thread on books here called "NAFPS highly recommends" - so I guess there is a general recognition that books can be an educational resource.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=79.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=79.0)
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Moma i really respect your wisdom.
It has been hard to find a balance within our culture.
I have seen where people have recorded some of our
plant knowledge for different sickness.
The problems from that:
People have came to our lands and dug up the plants
destroying the land, causing the plants not to grow
again. Which means we can no longer use them for
healing.
It is like the American Church and it's medicine, today it is
getting harder to find for the people who follow that way.
If you don't have a balance then it become destructive to
the culture one is taken from.
I feel for the people who can't find a balance in their own
belief that they must look into others. As we feel bad they
destroy our center
No Balance.
I don't have the answer to all of these things but I do
see the pain and hurt it causes my people and culture.
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You both (Moma and Earth) make much sense to me.
I am looking from a maybe too "global" point of view - since I live that way and am not too rooted in my culture. I have probably more in common with experimental music lovers in let's say Norway than with most people in my surroundings.
I also have no religion - so what is left? Global vault of knowledge - mostly "western" but why ignore "native"?
Never meant to say we should dig the riches in a colonial way... just thought why ignore them and not learn and you not write them?
Your examples how things might not work are spot on... But that is what I also think about - forms of rituals and spiritual practices that cannot be transfered, but the ideas - like, what is the concept of purifying yourself before going to hunt (board meeting, lecture, exam, performing concert, etc.) or what is the meaning of animal sacrifice - how did your culture understand and use it, etc. can be shared as concepts of knowledge. What are the ideas and methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits - symbolic, literal, mystical or just ritual and ceremonial? Things like that. Maybe I am too far out with this - but sort of rethinking or uniting your authentic knowledge with contemporary analysis and philosophy... Maybe this worlds can't coexist, I don't know... But why leave that to superficial new-agers if you could write it down in a meaningful way - that was my premise somehow...
I don't know. It is specific I guess - this situation of yours... I know too little about it obviously. I can only speak from my own perspective...
I will check those links to good books.. thanx.
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But that is what I also think about - forms of rituals and spiritual practices that cannot be transfered, but the ideas - like, what is the concept of purifying yourself before going to hunt (board meeting, lecture, exam, performing concert, etc.) or what is the meaning of animal sacrifice - how did your culture understand and use it, etc. can be shared as concepts of knowledge. What are the ideas and methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits - symbolic, literal, mystical or just ritual and ceremonial? Things like that. Maybe I am too far out with this - but sort of rethinking or uniting your authentic knowledge with contemporary analysis and philosophy... Maybe this worlds can't coexist, I don't know... But why leave that to superficial new-agers if you could write it down in a meaningful way - that was my premise somehow...
I don't think you can separate the "idea" of spirituality from the "form". Even while saying you're only interested in the "idea", you talk about "methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits".
Spirituality cannot be understood as "concepts of knowledge".
Moma and Earth, thank you for your posts on this thread.
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I don't think you can separate the "idea" of spirituality from the "form". Even while saying you're only interested in the "idea", you talk about "methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits".
Spirituality cannot be understood as "concepts of knowledge".
But spirituality is (in books at least) presented as concepts of knowledge.
You can write a "manual" like self-help section does or you can write an in depth research or presentation - possibly in a clear way (if it is intended for global use) that other cultures can understand it. I am not saying that your people must do it, but I don't think it is wrong or bad if it is done properly and that it actually might be good.
"Methods" were thrown in too easy - you can read from the context that I am not interested in knowing "how to call spirits", but what exactly does this action (if it does exist) represent as a specific spiritual practice and I only used it as a quick example of something that can be presented "sensational" or that could also be explained more authentically... and preferably also explain it through some analogy in other cultural systems.
What I meant is books like this (but on specific aspects of NA indigenous culture) - in depth - explained through philosophical language:
http://www.routledge.com/books/Buddhist-Phenomenology-isbn9780700711864
and a review of this book that gives some idea of the way of presentation used in it, that I think might me good and applicable also for presenting NA indigenous spirituality in books:
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=222281062535348
But it would be good to be written by your people not just "white" researchers or in cooperation. Just don't leave those topics to new-agers or some of your own people who might want to earn a quick buck with writing exciting pseudo biographical fairy-tales... that is my thinking about that. And my interest.
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And to risk error and unjustly offend someone - but I checked that man's Chaska website... It looks new-agey as hell.
The texts don't enrich you, but just give quasi majestic spiritual propaganda... (as I read it) No information, just high flying statements...
I have been taught by this forum that when it looks like advertising and fraud IT IS advertising and fraud... I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about this particular site if it is spreading knowledge or superstition and superficial "spirituality".
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What were we debating about??? There are already hundreds of books by native american authors... probably some very good ones... (on different topics and in several genres - some also on "spirituality")
I just browsed this:
http://www.ipl.org/div/natam/bin/browse.pl/books
Probably this topic should be separated into "research needed" about that particular book by Chaska and his activities that sparked M.Porcupines's question and the bigger question about the books & spiritual teachings and their potential educational or exploitational use - and giving some examples of good books that dealt with their topics seriously and respectfully and separate them from bad literature...
Some serious read that I might "exploit", :) :
http://www.ipl.org/div/natam/bin/browse.pl/A70
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take care of your children, respect each other. try not to worry to much about the lost new agers trying to find meaning in their life and those that exploit them and put your energy in healing the hate and hurt theat lives so deeply in our community.
healing can exist in all people all over the globe and everyone needs it from time to time.
being ndn is not suppose to mean being cruel, and don't let colonialism determine how we understand ourselves, otherwise we wont have a future
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as it seems that this thread isnt being moved, so can i ask you Chaska what it means on your website that we can call you for a teaching series...........
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I got a message from one of Chaska Denny's supporters, his wife. Discussions about him are in several threads, including http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2525.0
But the one thread that has the most about him is this one, so I will put the message of support and information here. Corrected misspellings and broken into paragraphs to make it more understandable. As sent, it was one long one.
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Perhaps I can clear up a misunderstanding from those who do not know Chaska Denny personally. The Traditionsl of the Winnebago / HoChunk / Lakota / Dakota and many other tribal nations know him and his reputation in "helping the grassroots people."
Chaska is NOT a spiritual leader and has never claimed to be. He is a "Spiritual Warrior" from bloodlines of both parents. There's a difference and he knows the differences as do his people. Chaska has devoted his life to "helping the Indian people" and commending NDN and non-NDN for their efforts in doing the same, such as Elizabeth Sturino who, with her late husband, helped restore Sacred Land back to NDNs on the East Coast.
Chaska's father is Santee Dakota, his mother is Winnebago. On the Winnebago Reservation in Nebraska, he was raised by his maternal grandfather whose "brother-friend" was Traditional Chief and Holy Man Frank Fools Crow who, along with other medicine men, mentored Chaska from the age of 3 when his spiritual gifts to "retore" that which had been lost back to the Indian people became evident.
This is the purpose for his seeing the "eyes" of "The One of Vision" who would find him and assist in this mission. He wrote about her in his manuscript 20 years before she found him, edited his work (for grammar) and self-published it for him so the words on the pages were his alone - not the words of a university professor putting his "slant" on Chaska's rez upbringing and mentality.
Chaska's jewelry and manuscrpt are promoted on MY website VisionoftheWorld.com because I am the artist who helped design some of the pieces he turns into jewelry as well as his editor who self-published his book for him. The promotional words under the title Waminega / Grizzly Bear Walks on Snow are mine and I stand by them. I first met Chaska Denny during the Vietnam War at Fort Sill, Oklahoma when he was putting tobacco on Geronimo's grave.
None of the words on MY website are those of Chaska. He does not write poetry. My website is full of it. The deep mysticism of the Hasidim and Kabalah are MINE which comes from my lifelong pursuit of Truth, having made two trips to Israel and studied with rabbis ("teachers"). ALL the writings on "visionoftheworld" website are MINE, not Chaska's.
Chaska does not live on the rez because, as my husband, we moved to Tampa to care for my elderly father. After his death in 2005, Chaska moved with me to the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee, ancestral home of my mother's Cherokee people.
Chaska has NEVER sold a ceremony for money or otherwise. He has NEVER instructed, taught or authorized ANY one for personal or monetary gain. As a Spiritual Warrior who "protects his people," he is adamant about this!
His manuscript does too cost us about $40 to print with so many color pages and spiral bound cover. He gives away as many copies as he is reimbursed for. Chaska was "told" to write his Life Story by certain medicine men who mentored him. In the past, after talking with a person, if he feels that person is truly seeking undertanding of Creator's ways - which were originally the same for all people - Respect for the Earth and all Her inhabitants - he has let them read how he has lived as an NDN with Traditional Ways of Belief in the modern world.
As in times past in NDN history when human nature becomes unpredictable, Chaska decided to give his book only to "enrolled" NDNs as he is. He has previously give you his tribal enrollment number and you have printed it in this Forum. I hope this clears up any misundertanding by those who do not know Chaska Denny.
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Hello Everyone, Let me introduce myself. My name is Christine Abercrombie, but before I start I will ask the elders If I can speak freely on this topic on Books and Spiritual Teachings. I know Calvin Chaska Denny And I help him sell his book to all people all over the United States to non Indians. I sweat with him many times here in Florida. I have knowledge of all his doings while he lived here in Florida. Please let me know elders if I can continue this topic.
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This is a Post here from A.H
To risk error and unjustly offend someone - but I checked that man's Chaska website... It looks new-agey as hell.
The texts don't enrich you, but just give quasi majestic spiritual propaganda... (as I read it) No information, just high flying statements...
I have been taught by this forum that when it looks like advertising and fraud IT IS advertising and fraud... I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about this particular site if it is spreading knowledge or superstition and superficial "spirituality".
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New topic about Chaska Denny just started:
More specifically I am searching for one of his books....Waminega "Walks on the Snow" (for my fiance she is Cherokee) any information would be much appreciated. I have searched for him here and read all the past posts but all contact info I can find seems to be outdated. Any help will be much appreciated!!
That outdated contact info is certainly here in this present thread.
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Most comments in this thread that started in 2008 seem to be about Chaska Denny and most especially about his book. He participated himself in that thread, as "Chaska":
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1636.0
[Books & Spiritual teachings - education or exploitation ?]
I quoted your request in that thread, hoping that among earlier participants who now get notified about this new post someone will come back and update the contact information.