Talking more with Winston Wu of that forum. Looks like Schober has up and left. He posted a message, then deleted it only minutes later, while I was responding to Wu's post. I didn't even get the chance to read it. So that means he likely missed my offer for him to explain himself to us.
Here's the exchange between me and Wu. Sorry for the all caps, not sure how that forum did that to my post.
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http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=22664#22664Winston wrote:
HI EDUCATEDINDIAN,
1. THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR INFO. IT WAS VERY INTERESTING. HOW DID YOU FIND THIS THREAD? BY GOOGLING HIS NAME?
2. NOW FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T MIND IF A SPIRITUAL TEACHER OR AUTHOR MIXES DIFFERENT SPIRITUAL PRACTICES OR TRADITIONS TOGETHER. SUCH IS COMMON NOWADAYS AMONG NEW AGE GURUS, INCLUDING GREAT ONES LIKE WAYNE DYER AND DEEPAK CHOPRA. IT'S A POPULAR WAY OF MARKETING YOURSELF. AS LONG AS THEY HELP PEOPLE AND ELEVATE THEM TO A HIGHER LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND HELPS THEM FOCUS ON SPIRITUAL THINGS, THAT'S WHAT COUNTS.
3. WTF ISN'T NECESSARILY A HISTORICALLY ACCURATE TEACHER OF APACHE OR NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE OR TRADITIONS. WHAT HE SYMBOLIZES IS A LONGING OF MANY IN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY TO RETURN TO ANCIENT ROOTS, TO A TIME WHEN MAN WAS IN TUNE AND AT ONE WITH NATURE. DEEP DOWN, MANY OF US YEARN FOR THAT, AND ARE TIRED OF LIVING A MATERIALISTIC LIFESTYLE OF MODERN SOCIETY THAT HAS ALIENATED US FROM NATURE AND SPIRITUALITY. THIS "LOST CONNECTION" IS WHAT WTF SYMBOLIZES TO OTHERS, REGARDLESS OF WHO HE REALLY IS.
AS A BIG FAN OF NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE MYSELF, THAT'S WHAT HE SYMBOLIZES TO ME ALSO.
4. BUT I THINK THE MAIN ISSUE IS, DOES WTF HELP PEOPLE? HEAL THEM? INSPIRE THEM? MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES? IF SO, THEN THERE ARE POSITIVES ABOUT HIM TOO. SOME CLAIM THAT HE HAS HEALED THEM AND EDUCATED THEM IN ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE. ALSO, SOME WHO ARE CLOSE TO HIM AND HAVE KNOWN HIM FOR MANY YEARS ATTEST THAT DEEP DOWN HE IS A GOOD SINCERE CARING PERSON. SEE THEIR COMMENTS IN MY BLOG PAGE HERE:
http://HTTP://INTELLECTUALEXPAT.BLOGSPOT.COM/2008/09/MEET-WILLIAM-TWO-FEATHER-NATIVE.HTML THAT'S WHAT MAKES HIM CONTROVERSIAL.
HIS PERSONAL CHARACTER IS ANOTHER ISSUE. AND ACCORDING TO YOUR ACCOUNTS, THERE ARE SOME NEGATIVES ABOUT HIM IN THAT AREA THAT ARE NOT GOOD OBVIOUSLY.
4. AS TO THE APACHE BAND GOVERNMENTS, IF YOU DON'T KNOW HIS REAL NAME, HOW CAN YOU VERIFY IF HE IS IN THEIR RECORDS OR NOT AS A REAL APACHE?
HAVE YOU TRIED CONTACTING HIS PAST GIRLFRIENDS TO FIND OUT HIS REAL NAME? SOMEONE MUST HAVE SEEN HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE OR PASSPORT NAME BEFORE? IF HE KEEPS HIS REAL NAME A SECRET, THEN THERE ARE PROBABLY THINGS HE DOESN'T WANT OTHERS TO KNOW, SKELETONS IN THE CLOSET IN OTHER WORDS.
AS TO THE DELETED COMMENTS IN MY BLOG ABOUT HIM, I SAVED THEM OFFLINE BEFORE I DELETED THEM. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM, I CAN PM THEM TO YOU OR EMAIL THEM TO YOU? WHICH DO YOU PREFER? PM ME ON THIS. I WILL PM YOU ABOUT THIS TOO.
5. I JUST THINK IT'S FAIR THAT IF SOMEONE CRITICIZES HIM, THEY SHOULD AT LEAST IDENTIFY THEMSELVES. I MEAN FAIR IS FAIR, IT SHOULD GO BOTH WAYS. A PERSON WHO IS REALLY A VICTIM IS IN NO DANGER SPEAKING THEIR MIND HERE. WTF, EVEN IF HE IS DECEPTIVE, IS NOT A DANGEROUS PERSON I DON'T THINK. AND BESIDES, IT'S NOT MUCH TO ASK TO USE A REGISTERED GOOGLE NAME WHEN POSTING A COMMENT ON A BLOG. I MEAN, ONE CAN HAVE SEVERAL GOOGLE ACCOUNTS AND NOT REVEAL HIS/HER IDENTITY OR NAME. A GOOGLE ACCOUNT WILL ONLY GIVE AWAY YOUR EMAIL PERHAPS, BUT NOT YOUR NAME. SO ONE CAN STILL BE ANONYMOUS AND POST FROM A REGISTERED GOOGLE ACCOUNT.
I DOUBT THAT WTF WILL ANSWER YOUR POST ABOUT HIS REAL NAME. BUT WE'LL SEE. IF HE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW IT, AND HIS NAME REALLY IS WILLIAM SCHOBER, THEN HE WILL NOT ADMIT IT OR WILL PLEAD THE 5TH. I THINK HE PREFERS TO REMAIN MYSTERIOUS. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ASK SOME OF HIS PAST GIRLFRIENDS?
6. ANYHOW, CAN YOU POST THE LINK TO THIS THREAD IN YOUR NEWAGEFRAUD FORUM THREADS ABOUT HIM? I'D LOVE TO HAVE YOUR GROUP READ MY ANALYSIS OF HIM HERE AND TELL ME IF THEY ARE ACCURATE.
7. BASICALLY, I ONLY TALKED TO HIM FOR A FEW HOURS IN HIS HOTEL ROOM IN SANTA FE. MY INSTINCTS (WHICH TEND TO BE 90 PERCENT ACCURATE ABOUT PEOPLE) ABOUT HIM ARE THAT HE IS AN ATTENTION SEEKER. SOMETIMES HE DOES SEEM SINCERE AND HONEST, BUT OTHER TIMES, HE SEEMS A BIT PHONEY AND PRETENTIOUS, NOT ONLY IN WHAT HE SAYS, BUT SIMPLY THE VIBE HE PROJECTS AND HIS TONE OF VOICE. (I AM VERY SENSITIVE TO ENERGY AND VIBES, AND A PERSON OF DEEP INSIGHT WHO IS ATTUNED TO HIGHER LEVELS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AS WELL) SO, LIKE OTHERS I'VE KNOWN, HE MIXES SINCERITY WITH A BIT OF PHONINESS. DEEP DOWN HE MAY BE A GOOD CARING PERSON. BUT HE IS AN ATTENTION SEEKER DRAWN TO FAME AND FORTUNE, WHO ENJOYS MESMERIZING OTHERS, AND PERHAPS HE DOES WANT TO REALLY HELP PEOPLE TOO. SO ESSENTIALLY, HE IS A MIXED BAG, AS THOSE CLOSE TO HIM ALSO SAY. THAT'S WHAT MAKES HIM INTERESTING TO ME. HE IS A COMPLEX PERSON. DEFINITELY NOT BORING AT LEAST. I DO LIKE HIM, BUT I DO NOT KNOW IF I WOULD TRUST HIM.
8. ANYWAY, WHO WOULD YOU RECOMMEND AS A GENUINE AUTHENTIC TEACHER OF THE APACHE TRADITIONS AND CULTURE?
THANKS,
WINSTON
9. PS - SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU. WTF TOLD ME THAT HE GETS INSTRUCTIONS AND ADVICE, SUCH AS ASKING ME TO TAKE DOWN THE BLOG ABOUT HIM, FROM HIS "ELDERS" OR "COUNCIL", MAKING IT SOUND LIKE THERE IS SOME COUNCIL OF WISE NATIVE AMERICAN ELDERS WHO LOOK OVER HIM. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? ARE THEY REAL APACHES?
10.ALSO, WHO SPONSORS ALL HIS WORLD TOURS? HE DOES NOT SEEM RICH. DOES HE HAVE CORPORATE SPONSORS? HOW DOES HE AFFORD TO TRAVEL THE WORLD? ANY IDEA?
HI WINSTON,
I ADDED NUMBERS TO YOUR POST TO MAKEM IT CLEARER WHAT I'M RESPONDING TO.
HI WINSTON,
I ADDED NUMBERS TO YOUR POST TO MAKEM IT CLEARER WHAT I'M RESPONDING TO.
1. WE RESPONDED TO INQUIRIES FROM THE PUBLIC, LIKE WE USUALLY DO. SURVIVORS OF HIS ABUSE CONTACTED US.
2.WHAT HE MIXES TOGETHER IS NOT APACHE, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. NONE OF IT.
THE SWEATLODGE HE DOES IS AN IMITATION OF LAKOTA, JUST LIKE MOST OF WHAT HE DOES THAT HE CLAIMS IS APACHE. THE CULTURES ARE AS DIFFERENT AS GREEK FROM SWEDISH.
IF HE WANTS TO CALL HIMSELF WHITE-MAN-SCHOBER-DOING-PRETEND-INDIAN-CEREMONY, THEN NATIVES WOULDN’T HAVE A PROBLEM. BUT HE DOESN’T. HE PUTS ON THE ACT FOR YOU TO LIVE UP TO YOUR FANTASIES OF WHAT A NATIVE IS.
THINK OF IT THIS WAY: WHAT IF I EXPECTED YOU TO LIVE UP TO SILLY WHITE STEREOTYPES ABOUT ASIANS? WHAT IF I EXPECTED YOU TO BE SOME SILLY MIX OF BRUCE LEE AND CHARLIE CHAN, WITH A COMPUTER NERD THROWN IN? AND WHAT IF I SOLD TAROT AND EXORCISMS AS ‘ANCIENT CHINESE SECRETS” LIKE THE OLD DISHWASHING AD?
3. THEN HE IS A FRAUD, PLAIN AND SIMPLE, PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING HE IS NOT. BE HONEST: IF HE WERE A WHITE GUY NAMED SCHOBER NO ONE WOULD PAY ANY ATTENTION TO HIM. THAT’S WHY HE PUTS ON THIS ACT, DRESSING LIKE A FRANKLIN MINT PLATE AND TALKING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN TONTO AND A TV PREACHER.
4. FEELING GOOD MEANS NOTHING. THAT’S WHAT CONMEN DO. AS FOR HEALING, SNAKE OIL SALESMEN WHO PRETEND TO BE FAITH HEALERS SOMETIMES HEAL PEOPLE PURELY BY ACCIDENT. IT’S NOT THE MAN, BUT THAT PERSON’S FAITH THAT (SOMETIMES) HEALS.
AND MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT HEALED BY HIM, OR THEY WOULD TRY TO GET HIM TO STAY AND BE THEIR LOCAL HEALER. BUT LOOK AT WHAT HE DOES, RUNS FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER ALL OVER THE WORLD, SOMETIMES ONE STEP AHEAD OF THE LAW OR ANGRY DISILLUSIONED VICTIMS.
5. TRIBAL COMMUNITIES ARE SMALL. THE YAVAPAI ARE LESS THAN 200 FOR EXAMPLE. THE BIGGEST APACHE BAND IS LESS THAN 10000. AND HEALERS AND ELDERS ARE WELL KNOWN AND RESPECTED. TO NOT KNOW OF HIM WOULD BE LIKE NO ONE IN A SMALL TOWN KNOWING THE NAME OF THE TOWN’S ONLY DOCTOR.
6. OPERATORS SUCH AS SCHOBER THREATEN THEIR VICTIMS ALL THE TIME. I SEE IT CONSTANTLY.
6. OK.
8. WHAT YOU DESCRIBE ARE THE TYPICAL TRAITS OF A CONMAN, NOT A HEALER OR SPIRITUAL LEADER. REMEMBER THAT CON MAN IS SHORT FOR CONFIDENCE MAN. CONMEN WORK BY MAKING YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT GETTING TAKEN AND ABUSED BY THEM.
A REAL NATIVE MEDICINE MAN COULD NOT BE MORE DIFFERENT THAN SCHOBER. THEY ARE THE HUMBLEST PEOPLE YOU WILL EVER MEET, SELF EFFACING, AND DIRT POOR. THEY GIVE ANYTHING THEY HAVE TO HELP THOSE IN EVEN MORE NEED THAN THEY. THEY ARE RESPECTED BY THEIR COMMUNITY, AND TIED TO IT AND WELL KNOWN. THEY DON’T RUN OFF WITH NAÏVE WOMEN TO EUROPE TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF OTHER NAÏVE PEOPLE AS SCHOBER HAS SPENT MOST OF HIS LIFE DOING.
8. IF YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT NATIVE BELIEFS FOR EDUCATION, NATIVE VALUES TO INFLUENCE YOUR LIFE, TRY WRITERS LIKE VINE DELORIA. TRY READING THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF GERONIMO, WHICH IS ONLINE.
BUT THERE ARE NO TEACHERS FOR OUTSIDERS, NONE, PERIOD. NATIVE TRADITIONS MAKE NO SENSE OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF A NATIVE COMMUNITY. THEIR POWER AND STRENGTH IS TIED TO THE HOMELAND OF THE TRIBE. NATIVE FAITHS NEITHER WANT NOR SEEK CONVERTS. NATIVE FAITHS ARE FOR THEIR TRIBES. THEY ARE NOT AND DON’T WANT TO BE UNIVERSAL FAITHS LIKE CHRISTIANITY.
9. HE’S LYING. HE HAS NO ELDERS AND NO COUNCIL. IT’S PHONY BALONEY HOCUS POCUS DONE TO IMPRESS YOU. REAL ELDERS WOULD NOT SUPPORT WHAT HE DOES SINCE IT GOES AGAINST EVERY PRECEPT AND PRACTICE OF NATIVE CULTURES.
AND LIKE YOU SAID, YOU COULD SEE FOR YOURSELF, WHAT HE DOES DOESN’T HAVE A THING TO DO WITH ACTUAL APACHE CULTURE. HE’S PUTTING ON A FANTASY ACT FOR THOSE WITH ROMANTICIZED NOTIONS ABOUT INDIANS.
10. HE LIVES OFF OF WOMEN HE HAS CONVINCED HE IS A HEALER. BASICALLY THESE ARE WOMEN WHO CONVINCE THEMSELVES HE IS THEIR BOYFRIEND NOW, AND ARE WILLING TO LOOK PAST OR CONVINCE THEMSELVES HIS MANY USED AND ABUSED WOMEN ARE IN THE PAST. THESE TEND TO BE LONELY MIDDLE AGED WOMEN, WOMEN THAT SOCIETY TENDS TO VIEW AS LESS VALUABLE AND ATTRACTIVE. (NOTE THAT I’M NOT SAYING THEY ARE, JUST TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH OF SOCIETY TREATS ANY WOMAN OVER 25.)
I DON’T KNOW IF JANICE TERRA IS ONE SUCHWOMAN, BUT SCHOBER DOES CURRENTLY USE THE SAME ADDRESS AS TERRA.
IT’S ALSO PAINFULLY OBVIOUS MANY OF THESE WOMEN HAVE SELF ESTEEM OR SELF WORTH ISSUES. JUST LOOK AT THE SEVERAL WOMEN IN THIS THREAD WHO DEFEND HIM EVNE WHILE THEY ADMIT HE USED THEM AND LEFT THEM, OFTEN DRAINING THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS AND LEAVING THEM AS SINGLE MOTHERS WITH UNSUPPORTED CHILDREN AND A DEADBEAT DAD.
I HOPE PEOPLE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT HE’S DONE AND THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE AGAINST SCHOBER. WE ALSO WELCOME DISCUSSION, INCLUDING FROM THOSE WHO DEFEND HIM.
EVEN SCHOBER HIMSELF WOULD BE WELCOME TO TRY AND EXPLAIN HIMSELF
