General > Research Needed
Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
bls926:
--- Quote from: Rattlebone on March 28, 2010, 05:22:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 03:23:22 pm ---I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else. The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research. Yes, there are blips about the event in several Norwegian facebook accounts and the flyer. None of us speak Norwegian. It'd be nice to see something about Ybarra in English. In fact, it'd be nice to have something besides facebook. If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.
Kathryn started this thread with:
--- Quote ---We've received some complaints about this guy. Reports are that he's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.
--- End quote ---
Where in any of those facebook messages does it say anything about "private ceremonies specifically for women"? Comments like that could lead someone to believe Ybarra is a sexual predator, even though there is no proof of that, not even an innuendo.
I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else.
--- End quote ---
Well in my initial post in this thread, I for one stated that some here have said they were against PODIA or NONs being allowed in any native ceremony, or that they should only be allowed in certain ones.
I am under the impression that you for one would believe that way, and that is fine. However if that is true of you and a few others on here, then why would it be okay for this man to even conduct ceremonies in Europe in your eyes and not okay for people here to allow NONs or PODIA people in ceremonies here in the states?
Perhaps you should clarify your stance on that issue???
My opinion on the matter is this. The traditions and ceremonies of a certain people or tribe belong to those people, and were gifted to them by the creator. If those people and their spiritual leaders see fit to allow people from other tribes, PODIA's, or even NON's in such things that is their choice and right.
I for one have seen with my own eyes and been present, when well known elders have allowed PODIA's and even NON's whom they were close to and trusted into sweats and other things. They key point to this matter is that these NON's or PODIA's whom were allowed in, were ones that the elder or his family had known for a great deal of time, and trusted etc.
On one occasion I listened to one elder I was close to speak to his daughter in law whom ran sweats for women, and at that time the topic of NON's in sweats and other things came up. The elder asked his daughter in law what she felt about getting NON's involved in things like sweats if they were going to do it in a good way, which of course meant doing so with respect and not becoming an exploiter or anything similar.
Her reply to him was that really she didn't have an issue with it, but was against it because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take to help these people, and that because NDN people were hurting so badly, they should be helped and not NON's. The elder thought about it, and then he agreed with her. All of that made sense to me.
As you know, NDN people are hurting really bad, and their ceremonies should be for them first and foremost, even if I am not against elders and spiritual leaders helping NON's and PODIA's if they see fit and it is okay with their people and community.
So to me this throws into question why some man would be way over in Europe running native ceremonies for NON's??? Did some tribe or their spiritual leaders send him on some mission to help these people, and why would they when this should be done for NDN people here. If you are going to help NON's, why not help ones here since doing so would give them an NDN world view and better help NDN people here both politically and spiritually?
Why even go to Europe period, when the spiritual ways of NDN people are not like Christianity and we do not seek to "convert" people to our ways???
This man, regardless of what his name, is obviously attracting attention to himself and to me that and what his actions are over there are indicative of new age hocus pocus and most likely plastic shame-on fraud activity
--- Quote --- The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research.
--- End quote ---
On the contrary, as has already been pointed out, this is "research needed," so how is this any different then what has been said in any other thread in this section?
I have seen in other threads where people have been compared to child molesters or something to that effect with no such proof they were anything of the sort, and much was said with just as little or no sources to actually investigate just as in this thread.
So how is this any different then any other research needed thread?
Nothing here has been said to indicate this person is actually guilty of these actions any more so then the many numerous threads in this section of NAPFS.
--- Quote ---If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.
--- End quote ---
True, unless this is his very first time with people finding out about him. Everything and everyone have their start and finish.
--- Quote --- I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.
--- End quote ---
Again, how is this thread in research needed any different then any other one????
--- End quote ---
I hesitate to reply to your post, Rattle, because you always take it as a personal attack on you or those you're close to. This is not the case.
I have never stated that nons or PODIA's shouldn't be allowed in ceremony. That choice is not mine to make. The decision to include non-Natives in ceremonies would be up to those to whom Creator gave them.
Why is Hector Ybarra in Europe? I don't know. There isn't enough information out there to answer that question. Should he be in Europe conducting ceremonies? That would be up to his community, his Elders. There's the question about selling ceremony . . . That is always wrong; ceremony is not for sale. Is Ybarra actually selling ceremony or has something been lost or added in translation? I don't know.
This wouldn't be the first American Indian to go to Europe. Some are definitely exploiters, while others are not. Until we know more about Hector Ybarra, we can't put him in one category or the other.
In most cases, there is data we can find on those who land in Research Needed. The person who starts a thread will have read something that gives an indication that the individual is a fraud and/or exploiter and links are given to that reference. When someone "hears something" or "sees something", they usually give at least a little information about who they heard it from or where they saw it. If someone called you with a complaint about this individual, say so. If you received an e-mail, post it. I understand the need for anonymity, but you can say you received a call from someone without saying who called you or an e-mail can be posted without giving information that would disclose who the author was. I've seen Al start threads in this way. To simply say "We've received some complaints about this guy" is not enough. Who is doing the complaining? How did you receive these complaints? The fact that there is nothing on the internet, in English, makes me wonder about all this.
As I said earlier . . . I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.
Defend the Sacred:
--- Quote from: Kathryn on March 25, 2010, 08:46:04 pm ---Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources, who say the flyer and emails are about the same guy. The photo was in the original email, but didn't upload properly in the initial posting.
When we are contacted privately with information, we investigate. We protect confidentiality when it is requested.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what about that is unclear. It is very, very common for people who are hesitant to post in the forum to write to the mods and administrators and ask for help. There is nothing new about this.
We are not going to publish people's private communications. What I posted was an email that appears to have been sent out to a fairly large group of people, a flyer that was posted on facebook by Hector Ybarra's friend, and multiple public advertisements for the European workshops and "private consultations". The people who have contacted us with specific complaints about their in-person dealings with him have been asked to join the forum and speak for themselves.
Is this more clear?
bls926:
--- Quote from: Kathryn on March 28, 2010, 07:11:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Kathryn on March 25, 2010, 08:46:04 pm ---Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources, who say the flyer and emails are about the same guy. The photo was in the original email, but didn't upload properly in the initial posting.
When we are contacted privately with information, we investigate. We protect confidentiality when it is requested.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what about that is unclear. It is very, very common for people who are hesitant to post in the forum to write to the mods and administrators and ask for help. There is nothing new about this.
We are not going to publish people's private communications. What I posted was an email that appears to have been sent out to a fairly large group of people, a flyer that was posted on facebook by Hector Ybarra's friend, and multiple public advertisements for the European workshops and "private consultations". The people who have contacted us with specific complaints about their in-person dealings with him have been asked to join the forum and speak for themselves.
Is this more clear?
--- End quote ---
Yes, you did say "Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources" in the 9th post in this thread, after you'd been questioned about where your information came from. As for the "private consultations" . . . Could you point to where these are "specifically for women", as you stated in your opening post? I may have over-looked that info. I look forward to hearing from someone who knows Ybarra and has first-hand information about him. Hopefully these individuals will join us.
I am not defending Hector Ybarra. I'm wondering about our ethics here.
Rattlebone:
--- Quote from: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 06:38:14 pm ---
I hesitate to reply to your post, Rattle, because you always take it as a personal attack on you or those you're close to. This is not the case.
I have never stated that nons or PODIA's shouldn't be allowed in ceremony. That choice is not mine to make. The decision to include non-Natives in ceremonies would be up to those to whom Creator gave them.
Why is Hector Ybarra in Europe? I don't know. There isn't enough information out there to answer that question. Should he be in Europe conducting ceremonies? That would be up to his community, his Elders. There's the question about selling ceremony . . . That is always wrong; ceremony is not for sale. Is Ybarra actually selling ceremony or has something been lost or added in translation? I don't know.
This wouldn't be the first American Indian to go to Europe. Some are definitely exploiters, while others are not. Until we know more about Hector Ybarra, we can't put him in one category or the other.
In most cases, there is data we can find on those who land in Research Needed. The person who starts a thread will have read something that gives an indication that the individual is a fraud and/or exploiter and links are given to that reference. When someone "hears something" or "sees something", they usually give at least a little information about who they heard it from or where they saw it. If someone called you with a complaint about this individual, say so. If you received an e-mail, post it. I understand the need for anonymity, but you can say you received a call from someone without saying who called you or an e-mail can be posted without giving information that would disclose who the author was. I've seen Al start threads in this way. To simply say "We've received some complaints about this guy" is not enough. Who is doing the complaining? How did you receive these complaints? The fact that there is nothing on the internet, in English, makes me wonder about all this.
As I said earlier . . . I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.
--- End quote ---
Well I have nobody on this site that I am close to or consider friends. The only person/persons you would say I am "close to," are ones that in actuality I was not very close at the time when they were being discussed. Also this thread has zero to do with me, or anyone I know, and so I don't really understand the comments you made that centered around any of that and were put in this thread.
At any rate I don't believe you really understood the point I was making.
A person I knew as a child at about the age of 13 has been in and out of prison since they were 18. I know this because I knew they were getting in trouble as a kid and I had always felt bad about it and was curious how their life has been since I last knew them. So I recently googled their name and seen public records about their court records, convictions etc.
One of the things I noticed in all of this, was the exact same thing I notice whenever I study or read about a lot of court cases; with many of those being ones that center around tribes, tribal sovereignty etc.
In these court case a judge or other will take a ruling from a case that might be similar to the one they are currently making judgment on and make a decision based on that ruling. Sometimes they might take a court case or a verdict that is not exactly related to, but similar the case they are working and use it to make a decision. For instance they might take a case in which the government or some bureaucracy has found a way to ignore tribal sovereignty on a case involving labor unions wanting to unionize a tribal business, and use that in similar but different case that doesn't involve tribal business at all, but rather just some aspect of tribal sovereignty that is almost totally different.
So my point with this is, that if I read people on this board making it known that a person should be put in this category simply for the fact they potentially are, or are rumored to have NON's or PODIA's in native ceremonies; then I do not see why objections are being raised when this individual is said to, or is rumored to be doing the exact same thing. To me that is no different then looking up a court case and saying was done in this case, and therefore our decision is this. So in regards to this, I am saying it is not unlike comparing this to a court case and saying "this person was put under investigation for having NON's in native ceremonies so in this particular case this individual is being investigated as well."
It is no secret to anyone that when such things are going on, it may not always be a reason for concern, but more likely then not it is.
I am sure you could look through many many threads in this category and find people under investigation for pretty much the same thing. If this reason is justification for one person, then it should be justification for anyone who does it.
You are correct that the ethics of this board should be kept in mind, and I am saying part of that should be consistency by it's members. In my opinion that is not happening in this thread when people are raising objections simply to putting this individual under investigation, when similar investigations have been done on others for similar reasons, with a great deal of them not being stated as fact but rather just investigation.
bls926:
Only quoting part of Rattle's last post, the part I want to address.
--- Quote from: Rattlebone on March 28, 2010, 08:29:03 pm --- So my point with this is, that if I read people on this board making it known that a person should be put in this category simply for the fact they potentially are, or are rumored to have NON's or PODIA's in native ceremonies; then I do not see why objections are being raised when this individual is said to, or is rumored to be doing the exact same thing. To me that is no different then looking up a court case and saying was done in this case, and therefore our decision is this. So in regards to this, I am saying it is not unlike comparing this to a court case and saying "this person was put under investigation for having NON's in native ceremonies so in this particular case this individual is being investigated as well."
It is no secret to anyone that when such things are going on, it may not always be a reason for concern, but more likely then not it is.
I am sure you could look through many many threads in this category and find people under investigation for pretty much the same thing. If this reason is justification for one person, then it should be justification for anyone who does it.
You are correct that the ethics of this board should be kept in mind, and I am saying part of that should be consistency by it's members. In my opinion that is not happening in this thread when people are raising objections simply to putting this individual under investigation, when similar investigations have been done on others for similar reasons, with a great deal of them not being stated as fact but rather just investigation.
--- End quote ---
I don't think anyone has ever been investigated solely because they included non-Natives or PODIA's in their ceremonies. That really isn't a big concern. Those decisions are better left to the Nations to which the ceremonies belong. Some of the people investigated here may include non-Natives in their ceremonies, but it is not the compelling force behind their inclusion in Research Needed. Each and every one of them has crossed other lines which warranted their investigation.
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