Is this group for real? AIM PA

[dabosijigwokush]

Definition for autonomous
- self-governing: politically independent and self-governing
- able to choose: able to make decisions and act on them as a free and independent moral agent
- self-sufficient: existing, reacting, or developing as an independent, self-regulating organism
Encarta World English Dictionary

other wise not following or adleast adhearing to the guide lines and beliefs of the first AIM

[HollowBone]

First of all, thanks for the support regarding typos and wrong spelling. And yes, this shouldn't be the issue here.
Trad Dancer, you don't answer questions in general? You ignored all I said. I do agree with many in here, you didn't get the point yet. I will give you an example you may understand. I do not know your life experiences, but do you know the feeling being different, a human being 3rd class? Do you know how it feels to be discriminated? Do you know how it feels to see your loved ones suffering? To be short on food, on heat in winter, on everything. No support from official side, no chance to get a job? Can you imagine how it feels to get insulted everywhere you go, to get spit on? You leave with your family in hope for the better and what happens? Your little daughter is afraid to go to school and gets real sick if she has to, because the other kids are picking on her, beating her up and so on. Can you imagine how it feels to hear people calling your wife and family bad names just out of the blue? All what is left is your way, your traditional way, your teachings and beliefs. And that makes you proud again.
Now Trad Dancer, can you imagine, that people like me don't want any white guys who represent us? Not even Mixed Bloods. Why? If you never lived that kind of life, you don't know anything about it, about the need of Native People. If you never walked in our shoes, how can you ever think you can represent us? These experiences you can't learn from the computer or out of a book. Our People live NDN, these guys only play NDN. They don't know what they are talking about. Coming again to the educational part. Where I come from, at least in the time I grew up, education was not available. We were busy to survive, to make it from one day to the other. No Mom and Dad who paid for everything. But we never lost our pride. And now we shall allowe people who have no climbs what they are talking about, to take that away from us while they play NDN? The point is, white or mixed blood, they can NOT speak for us, because they know nothing about our life. But on the other hand they claim to act and speak in our interest. What a joke.
You said, they have now new guys there. Well, the head and leaders of that group didn't change, right? Still a fake NDN group, just with more players. Weekend Indians who live a normal white men's life over the week. I couldn't choose what I am, I stuck with it, with all bad and good. I have to live every day the life I got, no matter what. And I am grateful to Great Spirit for what I am. Now do you tell me they may choose to live my life? Well, the nicer part of it, from the other part they have no idea.
We shall stop this and work together? On what? Let us hear your proposal please.
Thanks for the definition for autonomous.

Definition for autonomous
- self-governing: politically independent and self-governing
- able to choose: able to make decisions and act on them as a free and independent moral agent
- self-sufficient: existing, reacting, or developing as an independent, self-regulating organism
Encarta World English Dictionary

other wise not following or adleast adhearing to the guide lines and beliefs of the first AIM

First AIM? How many do we have? Sorry, I think I have there a lack of education too. Anyhow, regardles how you name the game, they still use the name AIM and their logos. With that they make believe they are part of what we know as AIM. Which is a misrepresentation of what you call first AIM and what it stands for and what people believed in. These guys have a nice ride on the back of Leonhard, Banks and others, who made a commitment for the People.
All that nice talking about this group and their leaders is a slap in the face of all true Native people. I disagree with Trad Dancer, this shouldn't be over at all. I don't get it. NDN's are so worried about mascots and all that other twinky, wannabe, New Age frauds, but here we do have something even worse. A group of NDN's by heart (?) or what ever, who deceitfully claim to speak in our names. How much worse can it get. send 'em on the Rez for the rest of their life, may be they'll get an idea what we are talking about.
Last but not least a special recognition of Critter. Good and strong words, a man with common sense and a clear mind.
Truth does not need many words or "big" words. Truth speaks in it's own words, simple and understandable.
In my life I learned one thing. Stay with your people, fight for your people. They are the only one's who are with you. I can not and will not accept, tolorate or support a group like that, lead from Non-NDNs.

[HollowBone]

Just to make the picture clear.
We had already the links to Gene Thunderwolf's and Roy Robertson's page/s. I found now the two other guys too.
Here is the wannabe Lakota Danny:     http://www.myspace.com/danr74

and Dan, Gene's buddy:                     http://www.myspace.com/phoenixstyx

as white as possible.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Last but not least a special recognition of Critter. Good and strong words, a man with common sense and a clear mind.

Thanks, want to inform that I am a woman    I know it's hard to know that with my user name.  Sometimes, I just get really PO'd and have to speak my mind about it. 

[Smart Mule]

Like it or not the PA chapter is legitimate, they have been sanctioned in accordance to Autonomous' guidelines.  If you are concerned, contact Chinka and Bob Roche, and explain your concerns to them.  I did, they listened, explained their position, didn't threaten, intimidate or act like jerks.  To be fair, if you support them, do the same.

It worries me that this thread is going to turn into a National vs Autonomous debate.  While my involvement was with National, I have assisted and asked the assistance of Autonomous members in certain specific instances. Both sides have made mistakes, neither side is perfect.  Both have what they feel are legitimate reasons that they stand by when it comes to membership and the formation of chapters.  I prefer National's stand on membership and chapters, but that's just me.  I'm not going to trash Autonomous, because in doing so I would be trashing people like Carter Camp.  I just won't go there.

We also need to remember that there are NDN people who don't like or support either faction and for good reason.  Members of both sides, myself included, have at one time or another, lended themselves to the acronym of AIM meaning A**holes in Moccasins.

Regarding the split into two factions, I suggest that new comers read the Edgewood Declaration http://www.dickshovel.com/Edgewood.html and it's rebuttal http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/USvAIMbackground.html.  Do your homework extensively on both before making a decision as to who you believe is right, should you choose to take a side.

[HollowBone]

May be I am wrong with A.I.M. and Autonomous AIM. If so I apologize for a wrong statement concerning the status of Autonomous AIM groups.

I am back now from Maryland and find the following comment on AIM Lancaster County.



Wanbli GleskaRoy R.
Oct 23 2009 10:14 AM

HOLLOW BONER AND WACIPI,HEED THIS WARNING,TAKE YOUR VENOUMOUS LIES BACK TO EUROPE WITH YOUR STOCKPILE OF BLACK HAIR DYE,CAREFULL WHERE YOU TREAD,HAVE THICK SKIN BUT WONT TOLERATE YOUR MENTIONING OF FRIENDS OR FAMILY...THINK BEFORE YOU ACT AS THIS WILL CATCH UP TO YOU...YOUR IGNORANCE AND FALASIES MAY FOOL NAFPS AND GROUPIES,BUT YOU AND I KNOW YOU ARE THE POSER AND IN A FIT OF JEALOUS RAGE,TYPICAL OF EUROPEAN DECENT...PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR RECTUM,TAKE A BREATH OF FRESH AIR,FEEL THE SUNS WARMTH...AND PERHAPS YOU MAY HAVE A GOOD DAY...F%&$#@ WACK JOBS!!!

I guess this shows the real character. Sounds to me more like a GOONS comment than AIM. Anyhow, I will step out of this discussion. Not that I am afraid of this "warning". I am afraid this will escalade here in PA and I fear that these people on their rampage may harm people out there who have nothing to do with this all.
My conclusion is: Screw AIM, looks like native people out there are still on their own. The trickster is already within.
If it is helpful to recover the peace and to go on drawing nice pictures, just delete my comments. Sad enough that insults and harassments, the taste of violence, is the way of those who claim to act in the interest of the People.
I thank everyone in here for the thoughts on this thread and I am thankful for the courtesy towards my person.

[Teepeecreeper]

I'm new here and have followed this thread with much interest but after I've read the last couple messages I came to the conclusion to add my 2 beads. I have to admit that I don't know anybody from this autonomous AIM chapter but their actions have shown me enough to say that I could NEVER support them because they are not trustworthy at all. To openly speak out treads to others doesn't sound very "professional" to me and are a disgrace to what AIM IS and WAS all about. They are a disgrace to Carter, Russell, Dennis, Leonard and all those who fought, died and got incarcerated for what the native peoples believe in. Those who sit behind that pitiful bunch of "Pretindians" ain't any better, hiding behind those who are dumb enough to do their dirty jobs, that's probably the reason why they "hired" whites as well............do whites know what we really need? Do whites know "anything" about our "history" or AIM? It's not about putting beads and feathers in your hair and give yourself an Indian name. There is "way" more to that.

My personal opinion is that they "elected" this ROY as the speaker, made him into the "headman" of this whole silly "organization" (obviously Chinka and Bob "operate" only in hiding )yet didn't even realize that he (Roy) doesn't have any backbone. He might think he's the strongest, but didn't realize that he has a huge weakness.........that's why he's barking at everybody. He wants so badly to be somebody that's why he's running his mouth at everybody. It would be wise to get some backbone first instead of jumping to conclusions and threatening others. It doesn't sound like AIM to me it's more like a GOON squad. We should try to work "with" each other instead against.

[Smart Mule]

I'm new here and have followed this thread with much interest but after I've read the last couple messages I came to the conclusion to add my 2 beads. I have to admit that I don't know anybody from this autonomous AIM chapter but their actions have shown me enough to say that I could NEVER support them because they are not trustworthy at all. To openly speak out treads to others doesn't sound very "professional" to me and are a disgrace to what AIM IS and WAS all about. They are a disgrace to Carter, Russell, Dennis, Leonard and all those who fought, died and got incarcerated for what the native peoples believe in.

Making threats, veiled or outward is cowardly behavior.  Making threats because a person or entity is called out on their behavior shows lack of experience.

Those who sit behind that pitiful bunch of "Pretindians" ain't any better, hiding behind those who are dumb enough to do their dirty jobs, that's probably the reason why they "hired" whites as well............do whites know what we really need? Do whites know "anything" about our "history" or AIM? It's not about putting beads and feathers in your hair and give yourself an Indian name. There is "way" more to that.

Neither faction 'hires' anyone, both factions have a history of support groups that include a good number of non-indian and descendant members.  Pretendians is a whole other ball of wax however and are counterproductive.

My personal opinion is that they "elected" this ROY as the speaker, made him into the "headman" of this whole silly "organization" (obviously Chinka and Bob "operate" only in hiding )yet didn't even realize that he (Roy) doesn't have any backbone. He might think he's the strongest, but didn't realize that he has a huge weakness.........that's why he's barking at everybody. He wants so badly to be somebody that's why he's running his mouth at everybody. It would be wise to get some backbone first instead of jumping to conclusions and threatening others. It doesn't sound like AIM to me it's more like a GOON squad. We should try to work "with" each other instead against.

I've made it clear that I don't always agree with Chinka and Bob.    Neither of them are operating in hiding, I can put you in contact if you would like.  Chinka is dealing with issues in the northeast.  He is also caring for an elder, there is already snow in the area he is living in, making sure that this elder has heat and is in good health (he stops in to check on her and spend time with her twice a day) takes up quite a bit of time.  To say that Bob Roche is in hiding is ridiculous, do you even know what this guy has done for the People?  He is still very involved with the indian center and chapter in his area, both of which he was instrumental in the founding of.  If people don't contact them, how are they supposed to know that anybody besides myself and the person I contacted them on behalf of has an issue?  Neither of them have the luxury of having spare time to scour the internet for posts on forums that are addressing issues with a particular chapter.  Carter and Russ are both Autnomous yet neither have addressed this chapter, I double dog dare you to say they are hiding because they haven't taken this chapter to task  

I am not entirely sure what happens or what is supposed to happen when a chapter is sanctioned Autonomous, as I have never been deeply involved with them, however from what I understand, once a chapter is sanctioned they operate as a separate independant entity from other chapters (please somebody correct me if I am wrong, I'm working on interpretation here).  The new chapter's accountability is to said chapter's director however if said chapter's director does nothing to correct specific issues or is a participant in said issues then the sanctioning chapter can pull the sanction.  Confusing?  Yep  

Threats and intimidation should not be tolerated, period, end of sentence.  How can a chapter possibly be taken seriously if they stoop to this behavior?  How can they expect to facilitate change for the positive in and for the indian community when they are acting negatively with chest pounding and bravado?  It's bully on the playground tactics, not warrior conduct. 

Teepeecreeper please don't take offense to the 'tone' of my post, I'm not trying to respond to you sounding snarky or anything, though in rereading my words that's how it could be taken.  I'm simply frustrated with the entire issue.

[bls926]

Who is the director of this AIM chapter? Gene Whisler/Thunderwolf/Mongoose or Roy Robertson/Wanbli Gleska/The Real Crazy Horse (who posted here as Redthunder 1891)? I thought it was Gene Whisler. I received a pm from Roy, while he was still here, correcting my use of the term "leader" for Whisler. He stated that Gene was their "director". Now everyone seems to be saying Robertson is the leader/director. Not that it matters all that much. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Just curious.

[taraverti]

Yup, I can prove my heritage back to the 1800's, it doesn't make me an Indian, any more than my direct decendency from Edward the III makes me part of the British Royal family. Get real.

I'm content to keep very far away from this group, I find this group to be immature, defensive, crude and rude in ways which will come back and bite them in the butt. Making real change in the world requires one to stop acting like chest thumping adolescents in some role playing game. No one is going to take anything said by them seriously out here in the real world.

If you are going to put yourself out there you have to expect to be looked at and questioned and criticized. You have to be able to dialogue with people in convincing and persuasive ways. Learn how to respond in a way that FURTHERS  your goals, not HINDERS them. Rudely telling people to shut up and throwing crude insults around won't cut it.

What do you care what is said here anyway? Just go do it. Try your way. And as Dr. Phil says, let us know "How's that working for you?"

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

And critter do you know anything about A.I.M ? So keep your nose else where...

I'm sorry you are angry.  And I wish to tell you that my voice was in regards to a person who instead of replying to issues being posted, opted to reply in regards to spelling errors.  I found that maddening.  He then posted some sort of threat in regards to being asked about the AIM group.  I don't know why the anger to be asked, from an objective view point, if a group of people are constantly being mimicked and false people pretend to be of their culture, then it would follow that members of that culture would ask for clarification and proof of those claiming to be part of their culture or part of a group that is 'for' that culture.  I do not understand the anger for having been asked, or even grilled, to give proof of this or that. 

Again, my voice was not so much about AIM as it was about a person claiming support yet replying in regards to spelling errors and then posting threats.  And for myself, that is not a person I would want representing me or my family in any way whatsoever. 

Peace. Be well.

[true_ blood]

True....True....True....It's not that i care about your support....it's about your lies....and the throwing of names...." ringo " ....do you guys think it's wise to be throwing names out there ? I would think about that....If you know him as well as i do....you would know not to bring his name up when he can not defend his self on what is being said....as to making me indian....It makes me blood....Edward the III....? that's your problem....And to putting ourselves out there....Well criticism, ok was heard....insults? different story.... Again, you can dish it out but can't accept it ? As to real world issues....Doing that also....but your worried about finding the wrong instead of the good right ? As for Dr Phil ? Ha !

[taraverti]

True....True....True....It's not that i care about your support....it's about your lies....and the throwing of names...." ringo " ....do you guys think it's wise to be throwing names out there ? I would think about that....If you know him as well as i do....you would know not to bring his name up when he can not defend his self on what is being said....as to making me indian....It makes me blood....Edward the III....? that's your problem....And to putting ourselves out there....Well criticism, ok was heard....insults? different story.... Again, you can dish it out but can't accept it ? As to real world issues....Doing that also....but your worried about finding the wrong instead of the good right ? As for Dr Phil ? Ha !

Look, if you are AIM, you are public figures. It's AIM Autonomous, not AIM Anonymous. Your names are going to be out there. You are going to be scrutinized. If you don't want that, don't put yourself out there. It comes with the territory. IMHO, the cause is worth it, BUT realize, when you do this, there is a risk. That's part of it.


The truth is, if you could see it, you could learn a lot from this thread. People have asked real questions and have been told basically to butt out or have been insulted. Most of the insults in this thread are from the people who have been questioned.

Plus, what lies?

[true_ blood]

Not getting pulled into this...It's over....Everyone had their say, so why not move on....no one needs anyones support....so do what you enjoy doing and let everyone do what they need to do....this is going no where....and i can not and will not waste my time on here....It is true that there is so much more out there to be spending our energy on....so have a good night and may you find peace....please delete me from this thread....thank you

[littleshadow]

I think it is really sad that something good comes along and is trying to do good and people are trying to get negative things and put it down. I think it is awesome that there is one in PA again. I think it is awesome what they are doing. But to drag them through the mud and to put them down is wrong. Should be ashamed. We have much worse things going on in this world to be going off about not this. I have seen the myspace bulletins and stuff and I have not seen anything wrong with it. I agree with TRUE BLOOD 100%. The only way things are going to change for the better is if people join together not bash each other or other organizations. Nothing good comes of it.  It is time to stop with the bickering and the bashing and the name calling and all that stuff and move on. Everybody spoke thier piece so now its time to move on.