Author Topic: Lakota Leathers  (Read 43264 times)

Offline Lakota Leathers

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 03:48:14 am »
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« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 09:11:56 pm by Lakota Leathers »

Offline ska

  • Posts: 162
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 04:41:25 am »
Dear Mr. Bohling,

I respect your decision to take action and retire the website, which has many, many problems with it.  

It is respectful of you to apologize to casual acquaintances or friends who's names you may have "dropped" or bragged about, without thinking through the consequences.

If I may impose upon you, would you also be so kind as to retire the name "Lakota Leathers", as it is inappropriate and misapplied to your current business.  Of course, as you point out, failure to do so would, in fact, incur penalty with the Nation itself.  

Maybe some of your creative artisan friends from Kyle can help you think of a good new name for your business.  And maybe, in the newly named business, the Lakota artisans who work with you will be recognized, respected and represented as carriers of living, breathing cultural traditions that are not "exotic" to this land but are actually born from it.  

What a wonderful opportunity for you to rethink your business model and get more guidance from your friends on Pine Ridge.  Perhaps some form of business co-operative would be of benefit to all involved.  

best, ska


Offline Lakota Leathers

  • Posts: 7
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 04:59:38 am »
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« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 09:12:33 pm by Lakota Leathers »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 06:00:25 am »
IF the Lakota are okay with the use of their name, I don't see a problem with it. However, that's a real big IF. Personally, I feel that if y'all are using their name, you should be giving them more credit for the work that they're doing. You keep saying that you're trying to protect their privacy. What artisan wants to keep their identity secret? I think this need for anonymity is yours and not theirs.

Another troubling aspect

Quote
So far proceeds from strap sales have helped pay for hospital visits, groceries, wood stoves, and many other essentials of daily life. While we are not a charity, our products provide a means of sustanance for an otherwise bleak future. By purchasing a strap from Lakota Leathers, you help keep the Lakota traditions alive as well as helping a family in need.


I'm an accountant; every two weeks I receive a paycheck. What you've said, above, is tantamount to my employer saying that she helps pay my rent and utilities, puts food on my table, insures that my existence is not bleak. You see the correlation? These men and women are independent contractors; you're paying them for a product, a service. The money they earn is no different than the money I earn. And that part about keeping "Lakota traditions alive" makes me want to scream. What about the Elders on Pine Ridge? That's their job, not yours. Do you even know the traditions?

As someone else pointed out . . . Is this a business or a charity? One or the other. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I really do think you mean well, but you come off as another great white savior. Of course I might wrong. You really may just be in it for the money.

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 02:12:52 pm »
Wow. Go away for a few days and things change. I got an email this morning from Kenny stating he has taken his website down. Go to his site and it is down temporarily.

I can only imagine the stress this is causing Kenny. To those in this forum, you have asked Kenny to put himself in your shoes. Now please extend him the same courtesy. Put yourself in his shoes. From my point of view, it seems he tried anyway.

He asked me NOT to post his email to me. I will honor that, but I will post my reply back to him. And I have additional comments which follow:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:03:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Clear Water <clearw@---.com>
Subject: Re: Lakota Leathers
To: Bbanjoboy@---.com

Kenny--

You would have been scrutinized had I done it or not. Someone sooner or later would have asked about you. I read your posts after we spoke and you definitely muddied the waters for yourself. You rambled on and on and mentioned alcholism and stuff totally irrelevant to the dialogue.

I can live with myself no problem. My intentions were not to harm you or anyone. Too bad. I am still calling Jeff this morning to discuss you as you have asked me to do. Sorry I couldn't get around to it more quickly, but I had other things going on.

As mentioned, it would not have mattered if it was me or someone else. You opened yourself wide open on your website.Now you don't have a website due to your own choice. You did not need to do that. That is your choice.I did not take your bsuiness down, You did. Yourself. And it was your decision.

I have read the latest posts and it seems to me, that through the scruiting, several folks were actually trying to help you. Do you not see that? That's clear as day. You could have left you site up until the name was resolved one way or the other. I belive since someone right in the post named the elder and said he was highly respected, and you had already said it was his idea, it would have worked itself out in a positive way. Actually, it still can.

You have shot yourself in the foot. I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLESM WITH ANY OF MY ACTIONS IN THIS MATTER.

Of course I won't post your comments to the thread as you have asked. I have been up front with you and straightfoward and have not lied or misrepresented myself to you and have included you in the dialogue. And I have honored every request you have made of me. From my position I gave full benefit of the doubt, from my intial post to this email to you.

Why did you not give yourself the benefit of the doubt?

I unsderstand the position you were in, but your knee-jerk reaction does not serve you of your stated purposes. Patience would have served you well here. Your impatience and reactionary statements to the forum as well as taking your own business down ... hiuh? Makes no sense, Kenny.

The thing is, this thread will continue with or without you. I can live just fine with my actions and decisions. Can you live with your desire not to be questioned, your reactionary knee-jerk reactions, and your decision to take your own business down because you could not handle that? Can you live with your decision to take yourself down? That was not necessary.

I LOGGED IN JUST NOW TO SEE YOUR SITE AND AT LEAST YOU DID NOT KILL YOUR SITE. YOU HAVE LEFT A WINDOW OPEN FOR YOURSELF WHICH IS GOOD. It will still all resolve itself. If you are sincere and for real, you have no worries.

My advise to you was to walk away for a few days and come back. I knew what I was talking about Kenny. Someone else in the thread advised the same this to me, and I took the advise. Too bad you did not understand what I meant. You took it down, you can put it back up. Don't put any blame or guilt trip on me please. It will not stick.

I will call Jeff B----- sometime today.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENTS: Some posters here have posted obvious questions, and it seems there is some knee-jerk reaction going on here from all directions. Please let this process work itself through. As someone posinted out to me, patience. All the necessary questions have already been asked here in this thread. No purpose is served repeating them over and over until some conclusion is reached and posted here.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:32:01 pm by clearwater »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 08:57:22 pm »
Only the main page of the website has been changed. All the subpages we've linked to are still up and as of now appear to be unaltered: http://lakotaleathers.com/About_Us.html

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 10:16:56 pm »
Yeah, but I'm supposing if someone doesn't have the 'inner' links that are not showing (now) on the Home page, then it isn't really easily found or accessible.  But if someone were looking through here and clicking, well, they'd also have the posts here to see what is wrong with the pages in question? 

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 03:37:53 am »
All anyone would have to do is google Lakota Leathers. All the info is still out there, except for the Home Page and Guitar Straps. And both those pages still give e-mail address and phone numbers, so no orders are being lost.

Home Page
Quote
We're sorry, but we our site is temporarily unavailable and under new construction. We appreciate your understanding. Please feel free to contact us directly via email or phone.

(865)908-1360 (865)963-9303

Email kenny@lakotaleathers.com


Guitar Straps
Quote
Please excuse our temporary absence. Our business is in the process of making some necessary changes, and updating our website. Feel free to call us at (865)963-9303 or (865)908-1360 for updated information, or email me directly at kenny@lakotaleathers.com
Sincerely,
Kenny Bohling


Not to mention all the stores which sell the straps.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4HPIC_enUS306US306&q=lakota+leathers

Offline earthw7

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 04:54:03 pm »
Just one small point when it comes to the name Lakota
to remember it is the name of our nation which means the
Oglala's do not have THE say over who uses the name
that decision belongs to the Nation:
which means one must contact all of us.

Oglala (Pine Ridge Indian Reservation)
Si?angu (Rosebud Indian Reservation/Lower Burle Reservation)
Hunkpapa (Standing Rock Reservation/Cheyenne River Reservation)
Blackfeet (Standing Rock Reservation/Cheyenne River Reservation)
Mniconju (Cheyenne River)
Sans Arc (Cheyenne River)
Two-Kettle (Cheyenne River)

7 Bands of the Lakota-Tetonwan (prairie village)
 
* Sicangu (burnt thighs)
* Itazipco (without bows)
* Sihasapa (black feet)
* Mnicoujou (planters by the water)
* Oohenumpa (two boilings)
* Oglala (scatter at one's self)
* Hunkpapa (head of camp circle)
In Spirit

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2010, 05:15:10 pm »
From my perspective, the primary issues at hand were whether Lakota Leathers was in fact selling Lakota products and representing itself properly in this respect. The issues of being a business but conducting charity was dealt with almost immediately by Kenny, who seemed to understand the dichotomy this posed. The other issues raised, of the actual base and some way to validate the statements made on the website, remain open. I think those concerns have been pretty well outlined here by myself and others.

The issue of use of the Lakota name was addressed by Kenny and another poster in this forum was in the process, as I understand, of verifying that information. That is still in process, as far as I can tell from my read of these posts.

Regarding the pulling of the website... I do see that he only pulled the homepage. I don't think Kenny is a web designer and I know from experience that changing lots of pages take time. However, until the matters of validation are arrived at, it would seem prudent to wait and see first. You know, kind of that cliche, "Innocent until Proven Guilty" thing we've all heard about. Another way of saying, give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. If validated it would be hard to stop something then restart it again (kind of what he has done, but by his choice). As far as the other sources of sales go, that it just because Kenny has done a good job or marketing the product and google has picked up on those links. These are not negative or bad things, and I believe the above posts were simply pointing out factual things, that's all.

If validated and shown that Kenny is doing what he says he is doing, is this a bad thing to try to help Laktoas on Pine Ridge Reservation? Somehow, it seems to me, that that would be a good thing and should be encouraged, if not supported and endorsed and embraced outright. To do so would be a bad thing? I guess I'm confused on that point here. the bottom line is he says he is doing good work. Is accepting help from outside somehow a bad thing?

Christianity was raised before and perhaps that is part of his motivation, I do not know. I do know that compassion and love and caring for another human being are universal thing and transcend culture and race. That I do know as truth. Is there some problem with a non-Indian caring for a loving an Indian at a human being level? I would hope not.

Offline, Kenny seems quite stressed and is taking me on personally, but that is understandable and I take no offense. Those communications are irrelevant to this discussion, being background noise, basically. But it is going on. The details don't much matter. Let's just say, the messenger (me) and my intent is being questioned, that's all. I have no problem sleeping at night.

Regarding the need to gain approval by all Lakota nations, as a non-Indian myself, it seems to me, in my humble opinion, that those are political institutions so a unanimous consent would not only be impractical, but may be impossible. That seems a rather high benchmark. I may be well off base is stating these opinions, and if so, my apologies to all as no offense is intended. But has there ever been any instance in which all Lokata councils agree unanimously on anything? I just ask that question from the point being they are political institutions, not necessarily cultural or religious institutions, makes me wonder if that is even do-able.

As others have stated, if this is real, it will work itself out. I continue to give Kenny and Lakota Leathers the benefit of the doubt, but for personal reasons will cease private communications with Kenny of Lakota Leathers. Indeed, this matter is squarely in his hands. He has made sure of that.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 05:33:56 pm by clearwater »

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2010, 05:43:54 pm »
I don't know.. seems to me if a person is upset over a public business that is being scrutinized by people it claims to represent..  well, the people it represents have a right to scrutinize.  That should just be understood.

If he wants to employ people and provide them some income, that's fine and a whole different issue.  But as a business you can't just take any name and use it as your business name.  Any lawyer will tell you so.  

If he's just wanting to provide a platform where people can sell their craft, then again, he would need to step aside and let them dictate how and what is written about it.  

Just seems some lines have been crossed here.  But I don't see where it warrants him having such issue over it.  If he Truly was just interested in providing a platform where these people could sell their craft, in this case, hand made leather and bead work instrument straps, then what issue could he have with all these posts and inquiries?

Seems to me, he is bordering on exploitation here.. using Lakota and their hardship to foster a business.  Not saying he IS (consciously and intentfully doing) but is bordering on it probably without being aware that he is.. 

If that's the case, then he can open up and learn something.. and change things so it is not.



« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 05:47:02 pm by critter »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline ska

  • Posts: 162
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2010, 09:09:11 pm »
Dear Clearwater,

There are several points you have raised that I would like to respond to.  Forgive me, I'm a settler, too, so I tend to over-estimate the worth of my opinion.

Firstly, with respect to your query about Christians helping the Lakota, my husband, who is Sicangu Lakota, and has identified himself as such on this forum, asked me to share his thoughts on this with you:

"We do not need help from the Christians.  The Christians already took that which is dear to all of us - this land.  Please ask your pope and your Churches to save themselves by re-examining the man-made laws that they have created through their own egos and imposed upon us.  Our people are meant to live by the laws that were given to us by the Spirit that is all life.  You may be able to help yourselves, if you can learn to listen but first, you must stop trying to destroy us."

With respect to this query of yours:

"If validated and shown that Kenny is doing what he says he is doing, is this a bad thing to try to help Laktoas [sic] on Pine Ridge Reservation?"

Given that we are forcing the Lakota, and other Indigenous nations, to live the problems created by European colonizers and subsequent generations of settlers, I think it would be a fine thing if "Christian charity" could be re-evaluated in light of the dominant society's decision to force poverty on Indians.

I would also like to address this statement of yours: "is accepting help from outside somehow a bad thing?"
 
As Settlers, and descendants of settlers, Christian or not, we are not "outside" the problem, we ARE the problem. 

For me there's a big difference, spiritually and intellectually, between presenting oneself as a kind of "great, White Father" who is "saving the Indians", and recognizing that there is a spiritual cost in doing nothing in the face of witnessing human suffering.  In this way, supporting the livelihood of one's friends on Pine Ridge is not so much an act of charity as it is an act of solidarity and humanity.  No extra points for being human, just a greater spiritual understanding, and a greater appreciation of the gift that is life.  Lakota friends have taught me that anything that I can give with a good heart will come back to me ten times over.  I have found this to be true.  One's good works are on display for all humanity, there is no need to advertise.

In the case of Mr. Bohling's business, he seems to be missing the point that the Lakota artisans he is working with are greatly helping him, too, by providing works of beauty that anyone could be delighted to display.  They are also helping him support himself in a livelihood that he believes in, that allows him to express his beliefs and spiritual values - this kind of "help" they are giving him is priceless and he did not find it anywhere else, apparently not amongst his people, cuz he didn't name his business "Tennessee Leathers" or "Christian Straps".  In my experience, Christianized, capitalist societies have a tendency to pretend that non-monetary, sustainable, life-giving support doesn't exist, and also they have a tendency to minimize the value of work done by hand and human labor.  Maybe that's why the reciprocal help that Mr. Bohling is getting from his Lakota friends is invisible to him. 

Mr. Bohling is not doing Lakota people any favor by selling Lakota beadwork.  Their arts and crafts are already well-known and highly sought after. Hundreds of people, perhaps thousands, are pretending to be connected to Lakota culture in order to try to capitalize on and market the glory and beauty that is the Lakota people and their culture. Thousands of non-Indian tourists come into Lakota homelands every year and try to get exquisite Lakota arts and crafts for next to nothing.  These tourists are fully aware of the conditions Lakota people are being forced to live in, and many still try to use cutthroat bargaining methods to impose maximum exploitation in the name of a good bargain.  I do not know what Mr. Bohling is paying the people he gets beadwork from, but I sure hope it reflects the many hours of work that it takes to create such beautiful handwork. 

Regarding your statement: ". . . the need to gain approval by all Lakota nations . . . it seems to me . . . may be impossible. That seems a rather high benchmark."

Exactly.  Thank you for stating the obvious.  One rarely sees Lakota people taking the very name and identity of their nation and culture and using it to sell stuff.  So, if they don't do it, neither should we.  This may be antithetical to a capitalist desire to market spirituality and identity as exchange value, but I've learned that capitalism does not support, nor is it supported by, a Lakota way of life.

best, ska

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2010, 09:35:28 pm »
Greetings ska--

Thanks for your detailed insights.

(For clarity, I should have stated that it is my belief that love and compassion for another human being also transcends religion. I am well aware that Christianity has decimated the Indian people. While raised Christian, I quit the organized church at age 13 when it was clear to me even at that age it was a lot of BS. I do not profess to be Christian. I personally have no issues with Jesus Christ; I do, however, have problems with a lot of his followers. I think many will agree with that.)

I think you pretty much nailed it. Others had indicated that Kenny of Lakota Leathers may be well intended, if not misguided. You have pretty much spelled it out clearly.

You have also helped to clarify for me the things that were bothersome about this whole thing, but I could not quite put my finger on.

Thank you for the clarity and the insightful remarks. It is my hope Mr. Bohling will read and reflect upon your words. There is nothing I can add. Well stated.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:45:54 pm by clearwater »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2010, 09:49:30 pm »
With the related discussion about another group of non-NDNs calling themselves "Lakota", I revisited this site http://www.lakotaleathers.com/ 

Not much has changed. Kenny Bohling is still calling his business "Lakota Leathers" and using the same logo, even though there is no indication of Lakota people being involved. A friend in Kyle who works in a related field has never heard of this business or anyone who works for them.

Bohling still claims the straps are made by Lakota artists, but I could find no names of artists on the site. None of the work is credited. He is still using photographs of unnamed NDN children to promote his business. The videos that use uncredited Native music are still up. He thanks the music store that loaned them instruments, and names the non-Native musicians who've bought straps, but none of the Native people who are making his business possible are given thanks or even the dignity of a name. Over and over in the videos, white people with names... and Native people with no names.

No mention of whether they are complying with the Native Arts and Crafts act, despite this claim:
http://www.lakotaleathers.com/ (click on "About US")
Quote
We employ several families on the reservation.  Each Lakota Lethers strap is made by a member of the Lakota Sioux tribe from their home on the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota. The purchase of a Lakota Leathers strap helps a Lakota person and helps fight poverty in the poorest county in the entire United States. Thank you for your support

We still don't know if this business, run by non-NDNs, truly benefits any Lakota people. We still don't know if any artists and artisans are fairly compensated, or what their working conditions are. As no names are provided, we don't even know if any NDNs are employed.  While some of the previous statements exoticizing the Lakota, and claiming to have been adopted by a Lakota family, have been removed from the website, the use of the photos of unnamed NDNs is still problematic. Especially the use of the images of someone's children.  I think the overall effect of the imagery is colonialist and exploitative.



ETA: Googled a bit, and there are multiple sites where the lead used to sell the story and set the company apart from others is that it allegedly benefits Lakota people.

Supple buffalo hide straps preserve Lakota tradition: how Kenny and Phyllis bohling's new strap company is delivering an appealing product--and hope to the nation's poorest region.

http://www.jazzmando.com/new/
Quote
You don't hear much about the impoverished conditions these proud people live in on the reservation, and the "mission" of Lakota Leathers  isn't just about quality straps for mandolin, guitar, banjo, and dobro, it's about providing a livelihood for a small representative of the 30,000 to 40,000 who endure a bare indigenous existence, often as high as 85% unemployment. An opportunity to bring some dignity and capture some of the historic beadmaking traditions of the tribe allow Lakota Leathers a unique, quality product.

Also, the deleted text about being adopted and meeting ceremonial people is still up on Bohling's MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/kennybohling
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:47:15 am by Kathryn »

Offline clearwater

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2012, 01:00:44 pm »
Since it was I who started this thread, I feel the need to make this follow-up post.

I notice that Lakota Leathers now is a member of the Pine Ridge Chamber of Commerce.

Is that evidence enough that this is a legitimate company that works with Lakota people? It is my opinion, that this IS enough proof that this company is legitimate and does the right thing.

In an earlier post to this thread, a well respected Lakota elder was cited by name as having been involved with this company. Has that ever been followed-up on? I don't think it has been follow-up on.

Can this thread be moved to "non-frauds" or is this still an open question? If this thread remains an open question (in light of Lakota Leathers now being a member of the Pine Ridge Chamber of Commerce) just wondering why?