Author Topic: Ayahuasca Tourism, Ethics Questions, Ross Heaven  (Read 50600 times)

Offline Ross

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2009, 11:39:10 am »
Thank you educatedindian. It is nice to know that you do not consider me a fraud. May I anticipate having my name removed from this section then and being rehoused in 'not fauds'?

On another note, I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites", such as when you say that "it bothers me when whites [rather than non-indigenous people, for example] want to use a sweatlodge". I appreciate the aims of this forum to protect indigenous peoples and their cultures but your phraseology here sounds more like racism. I'm sure you did not intend that.

As for your comments on drug use, may I just clarify as regards to ayahuasca that there is a special diet that must be followed by everyone who drinks it which (along with certain behavioural, sexual, food and alcohol taboos) prohibits the use of any "drugs" for some weeks before the jungle retreat begins, throughout it and for some time after drinking ayahuasca. Every year the shamans I have worked with are very keen to lecture our participants about the dangers of drugs such as those you mention.

In short, then, it would be most unlikely that a "regular drug user" would even choose our journey because their drugs of choice would be prohibited and unavilable to them for some weeks and if they were found to be using drugs in camp they would (a) be unable to continue drinking ayahuasca, (b) most likely be asked to leave camp immediately, and (c) there are clauses in our contract which state that participants must abide by the reasonable instructions given to them by shamans and that any illegal activities may be reported to the relevant authorities. As you probably know anyway Peru and the airlines which operate to and from it also have strict rules on drugs and not even coca leaves (often used by Peruvians as a tea) may be taken out of the country.

So I'm not sure any would-be "drug users" would choose to join our event or fare well on our diet if they did so. Again, from experience, I can only say nobody I have ever worked with has come to the Amazon expecting a drug trip and nobody, through the use of ayahuasca, has ever got one! I'm sure there will be a first time, however, and so I remain vigilant.

Again, I hear that you feel you have some concerns about what I do. The one that I saw you name was regarding individuals attending my Amazon journey and believing that they might end up as shamans so I checked the (32-page) information document I send to applicants when they approach me about this event and there is nothing in it which makes any claim (or implies) that anyone would become a shaman after this event. In fact it talks about some of the shamans we have worked with and the years of diets and training they have undergone to become shamans themselves. However, I have now added a note, as you suggested, to say expressly that this is not an event which will make instant shamans.

If you have any similar suggestions, I'd be pleased to hear them.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 01:31:39 pm »
Hi Ross

I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend.

There is lots of people who get posted in research needed who aren't "frauds". This catagory is what is says . "Research needed" . As far as i can see anyone who reads this will have a positive impression of you. Mostly because you've earned this through your own behavior. I can see where the title of this thread which doesn't give an accurate impression of you and should maybe be changed.

I doubt the moderators would feel comfortable putting what you are doing in non frauds as that might seem like an endorsment ,and if they don't I hope you don't take that as an insult because you seem like a mature and responsible person.  :)

Have you heard of this group?

http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html
The Yurayaco Declaration of the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana (UMIYAC)
Yurayaco, Colombia, June 1999

One of the things that seems to come up here a lot is the problem people have verifying if what people are doing actually has the backing of the indigenous peoples that is claimed. It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 01:42:15 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline bullhead

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 02:02:40 pm »
Ross  you made a statement in regards to educatedindians reply to you.

you said that {on another note,I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites" }.
I don`t see it as racist ,it`s the truth, just that simple it`s the truth.I don`t think you want to play some kind of race card here.
in my life time I am aware of two groups of people stealing {imitating} ceremonies, unauthorized aboriginal people and white people.

Offline Ross

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2009, 03:22:26 pm »
Thank you for your message.

It was, I think, whimsical of me to suggest that I might be moved to the Non Frauds category as, it seems to me, that despite positive comments like yours and educatedindian’s, once you enter the Research Needed category it is, of course, a life-long affair since people will always be scrutinising your work. I don’t actually mind the scrutiny since I am keen to learn and improve but it seems unfortunate that I arrived here based on a frivolous comment from ‘Tepol’ which came without evidence, has nothing to do with my work or the issues this thread has turned in to, and which a few people here have already expressed suspicion about. Then when my actual work has been evaluated the people here have found no fault with it, at least from a fraudulent perspective.

I trust you can see the paradox and the apparently Catch 22 nature of it: that, according to the three available categories at this forum I am either (a) a Fraud (seemingly not) or (b) a Non Fraud (but I am unlikely to end up there, as you say, because that might imply an endorsement from the moderators rather than simply because my work is non-fraudulent in nature, as you and educatedindian seem to think), and so I am consigned to (c) Research Needed which, while I appear vindicated of fraudulent activities per se nevertheless casts suspicion upon me. Perhaps it may be time for a new category - ‘Off The Hook’ or something similar?! – so that people who have so far proved themselves do not at least have to be lumped in with those who have not?

I had a look at the link you gave. Of course, I don’t work in Colombia but only in Peru, but I’m aware of the issues. They may differ in some respects in Peru but there are things in common.

To take the points of the declaration as they relate to ayahuasca in general or my events in particular, I can make these comments (the numbers below relate to the points of the declaration):

2. “We consider yagé, our medicinal plants and our wisdom to be gifts from God and of great benefit for the health of humanity... As sons of the same Creator and brothers and sisters on Mother Earth, we wish to speak, to offer our contribution so that life, peace and health may be possible.”  This corresponds to my experience of working with many different shamans in Peru over 10 years or so. They do regard ayahuasca as a gift of great benefit to humanity, not just to their own people and so have nothing per se against working with all those (Western or native) who have a need for “life, peace and health”.

3. “Non-indigenous people are finally acknowledging the importance of our wisdom and the value of our medicinal and sacred plants.” Yes, I believe this is true. I think there is a genuine feeling that ayahuasca may be a ‘medicine for our times’ and the participants I work with attend my journeys with a clear understanding of the benefits of ayahuasca and not (again in my experience) for a “drug trip” or (just) a “cool experience” as has been suggested elsewhere. I agree, however, that that is just my experience.

“Many of them profane our culture and our territories by commercializing yagé and other plants; dressing like Indians and acting like charlatans.” Possibly and more expressly perhaps (for all I know) in Colombia. All I can honestly say here is that I have never experienced this in Peru, certainly from non-natives.

There are what I regard as unfortunate panderings to the tourist trade in Iquitos, for example where you can take a boat trip for some dollars to the ‘Bora Indian reserve’ to ‘watch the natives dancing in their traditional costumes’. This is a different issue, however. It may arise from the Western tourist trade but it is not Westerners themselves who are dressing up; that is a tribal decision.

“Indeed, even some of our own indigenous brothers do not respect the value or our medicine and go around misleading people, selling our symbols in towns and cities.” My comments above aside, this is a wider issue than ‘Westerners – as a general catch-all term – being guilty of cultural theft’. I’d say, in fact, that the Westerners who come on my trips are those least likely to practice or believe in cultural theft. What is true is that in Iquitos you will be constantly hassled to buy ‘Shipibo artwork’, ‘shamanic rattles’ (which the shamans of the Amazon rarely if ever actually use) and the teeth or skins from ‘jungle power animals’, all this by native and local people.

These things are sold for a reason: poverty, which is part of a wider socio-economic problem (admittedly, probably, with Western corporate roots) but these people also rely on the tourist trade for their survival so it is a difficult question to address and one, I am sure, which would not be solved simply by ending all “spiritual tours”.

4. “There are those who take our seeds to patent them, to own them. Others want to declare yagé a narcotic plant and prohibit its use for the good of humanity [my italics]. We also denounce those anthropologists, botanists, business people, doctors and other scientists who are experimenting with yagé and other medicinal and sacred plants without taking into account our ancestral wisdom and our collective intellectual property rights.” I cannot agree more strongly but again these are corporate rather than purely ‘Western’ or ‘non-native’ issues. The shamans too are sometimes complicit in their work with and for those companies who want to patent seeds and cures and “own them” – not just (or only) for the money they receive in return but because they genuinely believe in the power of these plants for “the good of humanity”. I agree very strongly that the knowledge and goodwill of native shamans is being exploited but most often not by small-scale “spiritual tours” or events like mine but on a grand scale by Western corporations, but I also think that demands an enquiry well beyond the scope of this forum.

6. “We demand respect for our territories, our indigenous medicine and our traditional healers”. Of course. These elements are well considered in the events I offer but I have to say (even though this would seem to strip me of any ‘unique selling potential’)  that even those companies in Iquitos which sell “spiritual tours” to take part in rainforest ceremonies exhibit a sense of respect for the shamans and their medicines – if only because their own business depends on selling this respect to paying participants and maintaining a good partnership with the shamans who will provide the ceremonies for them. I am not aware – in a pure sense – of any shaman or tribe who is being “exploited” by such people although I do know of some “spiritual tour” operators who pay their shamans so pitifully that I am embarrassed by them, but they are not necessarily all Westerners either.

“We ask the world to acknowledge that our medicine is also a science, although not in the same way Westerners understand it. We, the Taitas, are real healers and for many centuries we have effectively contributed to the health of our villages. Furthermore, our medicine looks beyond the physical and seeks the wellbeing of the mind, the heart and the spirit.” Agreed in full. This is what I meant when I said I do not consider myself to be offering a “spiritual tour” but a healing experience.

7. “We demand the immediate suspension of the patent Loren Miller was awarded in the United States.” I believe this disgraceful patent was overturned some years ago (2004?), which also shows the age of this declaration although its points may still be valid.

8. “We ask for legal recognition of our autonomy in caring for the health of our peoples in accordance with our traditions and values.” In Peru, at least, ayahuasca was declared a National Treasure by the government in 2008 and its traditional ceremonies are protected.

10. “Non-indigenous people can help us consolidate our unity and the defense of our traditional medicine, as it has been proven that they also benefit from the wisdom of the Taitas.” Again agreed in full. For me this is one of the purposes (or at least the outcomes) of the events I run.

11 and 13. “We agreed to work toward the unity and defense of our traditional medicine and offer our services for the health of indigenous people and of humanity... Conscious of the fact that non-Indians also need our services as doctors.” [My italics]. My point as well. The shamans I work with, while recognising ayahuasca as an indigenous medicine do not regard it necessarily for their own use but believe it is a gift for all mankind and one to be treated with respect by everyone.

You say: “One of the things that seems to come up here a lot is the problem people have verifying if what people are doing actually has the backing of the indigenous peoples that is claimed.” Yes, and according to the contents of the link you provided, even whether native people are (a) respecting their own culture and its traditions and (b) genuinely offering the services they purport to be providing. It is a very complex and difficult issue and one which I have given much thought to and which is not going to be answered here simply. Numerous factors intrude.

You also say: “It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful.” Again, with respect, and based on my experience, I think it is more complicated than that. There is competition and ego among traditional healers just as in all walks of life. Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example, and according to what (and whose) criteria, especially given that aspects of all traditions may change? I personally believe that, as non-Peruvians, non-Colombians and non-traditional healers or shamans ourselves, we should know our limitations and not intrude on the deliberations of others but respond to their conclusions and decisions, based also on what we know to be true for ourselves based on our own experiences and not theoretical arguments (though I am not suggesting for a moment that you are doing the latter).

Best wishes
Ross

Offline Ross

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 03:39:12 pm »
Hello bullhead and thank you for your message. I don't think I was playing a "race card". I'm not playing cards at all; I'm happy to engage in dialogue. I see no reason, however, why "whites" should be singled out in any comment about who is exploiting or appropriating cultural traditions or who may or may not be a "fraud".

In fact, if you review the link provided by moma_porcupine you will see complaints in this respect by indigenous Colombian shamans and elders against their own people who are, by definition, not white.

You also say that "I am aware of two groups of people stealing {imitating} ceremonies, unauthorized aboriginal people and white people" but the former of these, again, by definition, would not seem to be "whites" so I think that, in the spirit of this forum we could perhaps be a little more precise in our terms. That is all.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 04:09:48 pm »
Hi Ross

Some of what you say here makes me wonder ...

Quote
You also say: “It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful.” Again, with respect, and based on my experience, I think it is more complicated than that. There is competition and ego among traditional healers just as in all walks of life.

Do you mean there is no basic guidelines about the use of these sacred medicines that the tribally respected indigenous leaders in your area agree upon ?

I can understand that making a list of accepted practioners would be hard to do for the reasons you give, but it still seems it would be very helpful if the people who are respected as deeply knowledgeable by their indigenous community , who are NOT involved in the use of these medicines commercially in relation to non indigenous peoples ,  were to get together and make a formal statement as to what is and what isn't acceptable use of these medicines.

Quote
Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example, and according to what (and whose) criteria, especially given that aspects of all traditions may change?

Of all you have said this comment worries me the most.

Do you mean that if the people recognized by their indigenous communities as knowledgable in the use of these medicines got together and came to an agreement , this is what they would say about general guidelines as to the use of these medicines ... ?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 04:12:32 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Ross

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 05:13:32 pm »
Hello again moma_porcupine and thank you for your comments.

I need to say that I'm not any font of wisdom but from my experience of working in Peru since 1998 my observations are that there is a big dividing line between 'what we (as people who stand outside a particular culture) might like to see' - or even what may be theoretically possible - and what is 'real' and likely to happen.

The first issue is in your question about "tribally respected indigenous leaders". As far as I know there is no current forum. offcially recognised and active body or officiating organisation for tribal leaders in Peru (if there is it has managed to remain invisible, at least to me, for 10 years). The Amazonian conference has, in recent years, come closest to that in the sense that it raises the profile (and globally perceived value) of Amazonian/ayahuasca shamanism and brings many different shamans together, but it is not a tribal council and while it certainly provides value for Amazonian shamans, it is organised by a non-native and, in this case, it is fair to say, a white man.

So, no, again as far as I am aware, there are no guidelines provided by the indigenous people of the Amazon about the 'who, what, where, why and how of ayahuasca' and nor are the problems facing the Amazon traditions simply  as a result of "white" or Western influence. Given the lack of cohesion (and the poverty in some areas of Peru as well the competitive stance of many shamans) it is 'survival' that concerns people rather than 'morals and values'.

I'm not saying your idea of a code may not be a good or in some ways workable one but there are realities (rather than our hopes and desires) which would make it difficult and, as far as I see anyway, the initiative needs to come from the natives and be led and managed by them, not have Westerners with 'good ideas' impose their views upon them as has been so common in the past.

In the absence of any 'tribal council' or indigenous leadership hence my comment 'Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example" - well, indeed who is? Would a 'traditional healer' be the man in the jungle no-one has heard of who is quietly serving his community and has no public profile, or the 'superstar shaman' who possibly lacks experience but has developed a profile perhaps due to his appearance at the sort of conferences I mentioned? If the latter, on whose authority does he speak? If the former, how will his voice be heard?

I also asked "according to what (and whose) criteria" might the 'tribal voice' be elected, "especially given that aspects of all traditions may change?" See my point above. The traditions of the Amazon do - and are - changing so whose voice do we listen to and how do we find and elect our 'genuine' shamans? Once 'elected' will they even be heeded since the views of younger, more popular and more 'income-generating' healers may not be those of their elders in the jungle rather than the city?

But these, surely, are questions for the indigenous healers of Peru to decide upon? I, for one, do not pretend to think I know best and would therefore not wish to impose my views upon them even if I would consider them 'in their best interests'. It is a complex matter, entangled with history, economics (current and past) and perhaps even local tribal conflicts and the modernday need to survive, and it is far more complicated than the matters this forum sets out to address. I certainly would not want to make any sweeping statements about what should or should not be done.

Best wishes
Ross


Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 08:15:11 am »

1...May I anticipate having my name removed from this section then and being rehoused in 'not fauds'?

2. On another note, I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites", such as when you say that "it bothers me when whites [rather than non-indigenous people, for example] want to use a sweatlodge". I appreciate the aims of this forum to protect indigenous peoples and their cultures but your phraseology here sounds more like racism. I'm sure you did not intend that.

3...it would be most unlikely that a "regular drug user" would even choose our journey because their drugs of choice would be prohibited and unavilable...and so I remain vigilant.
 
4. I have now added a note, as you suggested, to say expressly that this is not an event which will make instant shamans.


1. Research Needed doesn't automatically imply "Fraud Under Investigation" or anything like that. Some things under RN threads include questions about legal or historical topics. We also sometimes put a thread into Archives with a big disclaimer NO LONGER A SUBJECT OF CONCERN.

So I'd like to ask all that are reading this thread to comment as to what we should do with the thread. Archive, Non Fraud, or keep it here?

2. I meant people outside the community, and gave whites using a sweatlodge as an example.

3 and 4. These are good to hear, thanks.

Offline SQuid

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Re: Ross Heaven
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 08:19:10 am »
Ross - You continue to stand heads above the throngs. Using this forum's own criteria, here is NO justifiable rationale to keep you in the "Research Needed" category! What more could ANYONE possibly need researched about you at this point in time! [Insults removed] here you take the time and great care to come right in and not only THOROUGHLY explain yourself but even INVITE suggestions! What more would any reasonable moderator want in any forum!

On top of that, [one moderator out of five] of this forum states:
"I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all."

He clearly says he does not think you are a fraud - so what more is needed to remove you from this thread and place you in the Non Frauds category.[Insults]

"Not sure if they are or aren't a fraud?"  Well [one moderator out of five] has [said] that [he doesn't think you are] one. [Insults]

IF anyone is so concerned that this forum's moderators might look as though they are "endorsing" you by placing you in the NON-Frauds category ALL they need do is place a caveat in the beginning of your newly placed thread AND change that absurd title of your thread as well.

In lieu of that reasonable move, they could simply delete your entire thread. Either way, clearly you do NOT deserve to be left in limbo in this category which states:
"Research Needed - Not sure if they are fraudulent or not?"

Equally as clearly, you have earned the right to be placed in the Non-Frauds category which reads:
"Non-Frauds- People who are genuine and trustworthy"
I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum.

It's not as though moving you to Non-Frauds is chiseled in stone.

[More insults removed.] Either way, Ross, you clearly prevail as honest, intelligent, forthright, open, sincere, "genuine and trustworthy."  Congratulations. I hope your traits are matched here.

[Al's note: Keep your childish insults out. You only harm the image of the people you claim to help. Thread retitled, which you could have done yourself if so concerned about it.]





« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 08:33:05 am by educatedindian »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Ross Heaven
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 03:00:07 pm »
Quote
So I'd like to ask all that are reading this thread to comment as to what we should do with the thread. Archive, Non Fraud, or keep it here?

It's a tough call because it seems a lot of "research is needed " about ayachuasca tourism in general. I have a hard time believing there is no generally agreed on standards for it's use , and no definent body of opinion which considers some things a misuse. If that body of opinion exists in the indigenous community and is because of cultural concerns , i would like to know what those concerns are and support only those practices that respect those concerns.

On the other hand, clearly there is many indigenous peoples who are supporting the sharing of ayahuasca with visitors, and when I do a search for "controversy" , "exploitation " "abuse" in relation to ayahuasca I don't find anyone making complaints. Of course as Mr Ross says , that may be because the actual indigenous leaders who have retained their culture without being influenced by nonindigenous tourism are too far back in the jungle for their voices to be heard.  And there is that statement from UMIYAC which clearly does express some concerns.

But the question more seems to be about Ayahuasca tourism in general than about Mr Ross.

Maybe if this was left in research needed, but the title was changed to " ayahuasca tourism?"   

Also it might be good if the first post was edited to include a note at the begining explaining that Mr Ross denies writting the email that is being complained about- and there is no evidence he did.

Just my opinion. It would be interesting to hear other peoples.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 03:04:21 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline SQuid

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Re: Ross Heaven
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 03:30:01 pm »
[Sidetrack argument about squid's insults removed.]

Pertaining to the concept of creating a "directory" of "approved practitioners" is as Ross has stated unrealistic and would only serve to mislead people. It also smacks of colonialism and dangerously threatens to cause further "competition" among practitioners. Further, it places outside of that culture a power to control or unduly influence those traditional practitioners and thus the tradition itself. Why fix what is not broken? It is the minds of those who seek which need to adjust to the indigenous mindset = and not the minds of the traditionals that need to now conform to nonIndian "standards." Next likely, a bureaucracy akin to the FDA will get their self-dealing fingers in the mix. More power to people like Ross who take the time to educate those seekers and serve as an honest bridge connecting two sets of people in service. (I do not know Ross and my comments are my own.)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 12:10:41 am by educatedindian »

Offline that_dakota_kid

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Re: Ross Heaven
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 04:17:01 pm »
Quote
But the question more seems to be about Ayahuasca tourism in general than about Mr Ross.

Maybe if this was left in research needed, but the title was changed to " ayahuasca tourism

X2 I would also like to see a shift fire to these tourist andeavors. There might just be something contoversial and we are unable to hear about it.

Good post Mama P. I thought I was the only person that thought there is something missing and needed researched.

Offline Ross

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Ayahuasca Tourism and Ethics Questions
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2009, 04:40:23 pm »
For what it's worth, I'd be happy to help with a new thread on 'ayahuasca tourism' if you think I can add to it. I've worked in the Amazon for a number of years, I know some of the issues as I hope my earlier comments might suggest, and while those issues are complicated - not just about 'pointing fingers' and ascribing 'blame' (if that is the correct word) - I also know some of the people who are running 'ayahuasca' and 'spiritual tours' and (although I might not want to name names) IMHO are guilty of - if not cultural theft, then exploitation of the shamans they work with and the participants who join their events.

With respect, however, that also seems to be a different subject to this thread and so the personal conundrum for me remains: here I am in 'Research Needed' while I have a few people here (including one moderator) stating that I am not a fraud at least according to the aims of this forum and particularly in relation to this thread. I'd be very happy to resolve this matter then, by all means (if you wish) contribute to a new thread along the lines suggested.

Also, just as a thought: for those people who are singled out for investigation but who might, like myself, be keen to work with this forum, perhaps there is scope for the development of some sort of 'council' here offering suggestions for improvement as a positive step forward? For example, again with respect, I have heard vague criticisms of my work here but little by way of practical suggestions for what an alternative and better 'good practice' might be. Educatedindian had one good idea for including a statement regarding my Amazon trip that it will not make anyone 'a shaman' and I've done that because I thought it sounded sensible,and I've said all along that further suggestions would be considered.

More generally though, if this forum is for the advocation of positive change rather than just criticism, might it not be useful to offer informed opinion and advice to all those practitioners who are criticised for their work as a first step in place of pure condemnation and in the hope that they can change - i.e. for this group to act in an advisory capacity as well?

Simply my thoughts.

Best wishes
Ross

[Thread retitled]
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 12:14:36 am by educatedindian »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ayahuasca Tourism and Ethics Questions
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 12:23:30 am »
Thread retitled since most agree this reflects what the discussion has become about.

Interesting argument by squid: That if NDN traditionals come together to discuss guidelines or issue public statements it's "colonialism". But what an outsider like Ross is somehow truly "traditional" in his view. While Ross has certainly done his best to be ethical and just, he is an outsider (and does not pretend otherwise).

Nope, it's called activism and defending tradition and just plain old trying to do right. It's what AIM and traditional elders have done many times already with every one of their declarations. If you haven't read those declarations maybe you should, and take a look at who signed them.

And the statement "why fix what is not broken?" That's truly bizarre. Huge numbers of people are harmed all the time by spiritual tourism, psychological and physical harm done by taking ayahuasca when theyare capable of handling it emotionally or the preparation is done poorly by people who don't know how to do a ceremony. Some ayahuasca tour operators aren't even going to actual NDN healers. They're going to any mestizo who can pass as an NDN and will hand out the drug for profit.

And that's not even counting all the pseudo-shamans spreading disinformation, who pass off having taken one of the tours as proof they are supposedly now shamans.

frederica

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Re: Ayahuasca Tourism and Ethics Questions
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 03:53:54 am »
We have quite a bit on Ayahuasca use and misuse if you go to search.  Here is just a couple of the threads:  http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html  and http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=543.0