NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Diana on June 26, 2015, 04:21:00 am
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Ok E. P. Grondine, here's your genealogy:
This is E.P. Grondine's mothers death record. She is the one he claims his Shawnee ancestry from, he claims 1/8, which would make his mother 1/4. Now that is some significant Indian blood. And would make his grandmother 1/2. Wow! And they are all from Old Town Maryland....there is no Shawnee Old town.
Rose Adams Grondine in the Virginia, Death Records, 1912-2014
Record Image Index-only record
Name:
Rose Adams Grondine
Gender:
Female
Race:
White
Age at Death:
85
Birth Date:
abt 1913
Death Date:
22 Jul 1998
Death Place:
Orange, Virginia, USA
Rose W Adams in the 1920 United States Federal Census
Name:
Rose W Adams
Age:
8
Birth Year:
abt 1912
Birthplace:
Maryland
Home in 1920:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
Race:
White
Gender:
Female
Relation to Head of House:
Daughter (Child)
Marital Status:
Single
Father's name:
Charles P Adams
Father's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother's name:
Birtha E Adams
Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland
Able to Speak English:
Yes
Attended School:
Yes
Now here is E.P. Grondines Grandmother Bertha E. Twigg. Just to refresh everyone's memory E.P. Grondine freely and happily provided us with this information. Everybody is WHITE.
Bertha E Twigg in the 1900 United States Federal Census
Name:
Bertha E Twigg
Age:
19
Birth Date:
Feb 1881
Birthplace:
Maryland
Home in 1900:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
Race:
White
Gender:
Female
Relation to Head of House:
Daughter (Child)
Marital Status:
Single
Father's name:
Charles Twigg
Father's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother's name:
Hanah C Twigg
Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland
Occupation:
View on Image
Neighbors:
View others on page
Household Members:
Name
Age
Charles Twigg 58
Hanah C Twigg 38
Bertha E Twigg 19
Diana
[Thread title modified at Diana's request. No change to message text.]
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PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE WORKS BY E.P. GRONDINE
OS1 Lunar
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/os1lunar.htm
POLYUS
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm
MIR 2
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/miralyut.htm
CHINESE MANNED SPACE PROGRAM: BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/chidoors.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tsie1978.htm
LUNAR VARIANT KLIPER
http://www.astronautix.com/gallery/ckliper.htm
CHINA'S MOON PROJECT:
http://www.friends-partners.org/pipermail/fpspace/2006-May/019800.html
CAMBRIDGE CONFERENCE, 1998 - 2003
MAJOR HISTORICAL WORKS
2000
Everything is Connected:
A survey of Man and impact in SE North America
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce090400.html
2001
Going Into the Water:
A survey of Man and impact
in the Eastern North American coastal zone and Caribbean
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce010702.html
2002
Impact And The End Of The Roman Empire In The West
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce082202.html
SHORTER HISTORICAL ESSAYS AND NOTES
1997
Benny Peiser's initial catalogue of Holocene impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc052898.html
1998-2002
On the Joshua impact event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032098.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032598.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc033098.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012102.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021202.html
1998
On the destruction of the Etruscan city of Volsinii by impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc043098.html
On the effects of blast waves
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc071098.html
An Impact Event Recorded In Ainu Folklore
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc102898.html
1999
The Song Of Ullikummi, a Hurrian account of the Tel Leilan impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012099.html
Note on Karen Reiter's "Die Metalle im Alten Orient":
An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020999.html
Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031500.html
2000
Short note on sub-Roman impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042600.html
Updated Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc070202.html
2001
Legends of a major South American impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032601.html
Comparison of work done at Tunguska, Barringer Crater, and Rio Cuarto
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc082301.html
2002
Worknotes On Man In The Ancient Near East And Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc041702.html
Background On The Kaali Lake Impact Event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062402.html
2003
The Egyptian Book of the Celestial Cow
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce102103.html
REPORTAGE, 1997-2003
1997
On JPL's failure to mention impact craters on Mars
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111497.html
1998
Review of "Deep Impact"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042098.html
Coverage of House Space Subcommittee hearing on NASA and the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc052898.html
Miscellaneous items, including report on first US NEO defense system
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061198.html
Don Yeoman's presentation at a Congressional luncheon
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062298.html
Eleanor Helin named to Technology Hall of Fame
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062698.html
On the establishment of NASA's NEO office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050598.html
Interview with Wesley Huntress
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050898.html
On NASA Administrator Dan Goldin's strategic plan for NASA and his
views on dealing with the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc091598.html
On the Space Frontier Foundation's views on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100798.html
The Deep Space 1 Briefing,
and beginning of Newt Gingrich's attack on ISS
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100198.htm
More on Newt Gingrich's attack
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100298.html
Short interview with NASA Administrator Dan Goldin on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100898.html
The NEAR Briefing, and a Short Chat With Don Yeomans
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc122198.html
1999
The Problem Of Back Contamination From An Operational Perspective:
An interview with John Rummel
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html
On the Space Frontier Foundation Forming the "Watch" Committee
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011399.html
Budget for NASA NEO office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020499.html
On Russian work on the back contamination problem
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html
Interview with John Rummel of NASA's Planetary Protection Office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021299.html
ASTEROIDS, COMETS, METEORS & LOST LUGGAGE:
COVERAGE OF THE 1999 ASTEROIDS, COMETS, AND METEORS CONFERENCE
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ccemenu.html
2000
REPORT FROM THE AMERICAN ASTRONAUTICAL SOCIETY'S
38th GODDARD MEMORIAL SYMPOSIUM
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc040400.html
On oil deposits and impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc060600.html
Interview with Colin Hicks on government response to
the UK NEO Taskforce report
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111600.html
2001
An improved English translation of
THE RUSSIAN POSITION PAPER ON PLANETARY DEFENSE
by Anatoly V. Zaitsev
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020701.html
Press Conference on Becker Team's development of test for impact
fullerenes (and the loss of my Mercedes Benz)
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031301.html
First interview with Ed Weiler
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050201.html
Viking At 25: Report On The Symposium On Mars Exploration
With important observations on public support for manned Mars flight,
And interviews with James Garvin and Mike Malin
on the state of Martian crater counts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc072101.html
Interview with Colin Hicks
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111301.htm
2002
Dazed And Confused:
In Search Of Us Policies For Dealing With The Impact Hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce021102.html
SLI downselect and interview with Ed Weiler
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050702.html
CONTOUR briefing
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061702.html
On interplanetary blast waves from Shoemaker Levy 9 impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092602.html
Workshop for Mitigating the Effects of Public Concern on the NASA
Bureaucracy: Two Days in Washington, 2002
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce091702.html
The NASA Bureaucrats' New Efforts To Try And Sandbag The Neo Problem
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100102.html
Report on Congressional hearing on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100802.html
2003
On the Challenger O-Ring failure
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020503.html
COMMENTARY, 1998-2002
1998
On relations between the MPC and NASA
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc040898.html
On relations between the MPC and NASA
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061598.html
On the Washington Post's coverage of the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042298.html
2000
On JPL's estimates of the impact hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011700.html
On General Pete Worden's proposals
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020800.html
Need for funding of historical research
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032000.html
On the UK NEO Taskforce report
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092600.html
2001
Suggestion to use video-conferencing
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031201.html
2002
On the Australian Governments refusal to fund a NEO observatory
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032502.html
Call for more money for historical impact search
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc051402.html
SATIRE, 1998-2002
1998
"Armageddon" versus "Deep Impact"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc070698.html
Dale Carnegie Method versus Scientific Method
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc072198.html
2000
On the effects of Pissing on the Sphinx
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012600.html
Live From The House Of Commons
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092100.html
2001
Clarification Of The Government's Response, For Speakers
Of English As A Second Language
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc022601.html
2002
Human Sacrifice as an
An Extremely Low Cost Approach To Dealing With The Neo Hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011502.html
My Campaign to be Elected Chairman of the IAU NEO Working Group
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc071802.html
Really Big News: Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 Hits Jupiter
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc112602.html
I never said I was Indian.
I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) Shawnee descent.
Keep on cc0oming...
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http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3277&p=68210&hilit=fleet#p68210
1586 SHAWNEE -
KISHPOKOTHA ON THE ROANOKE RIVER?
...This is improbable, however, as the Chowanocks lived in what
was then Virginia in the days of Captain John Smith, and are mentioned
by him under that name in his General History of Virginia.
They are first referred to in 1586 by Master Ralph Lane, com-
mander-in-chief of Sir Walter Raleigh's colony on Roanoke Island, sent
out from England in the preceding year. Lane states that, "to the north-
west the farthest place of our discovery was to Chawanock, distant from
Roanoke about 130 [?] miles." "Chawanock itself", he adds, "is the
greatest province and seigniorie lying upon that River [the Chowan]; and the
very town itself is able to put 700 fighting men into the field, besides the
force of the province itself. " The town of Chawanock' is shown on John
White's map of 1586, [BUT NOT AT 130 MILES FROM ROANOKE]
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... 3&partid=1
...
1632 SHAWNEE - TSAWIGHELI (Sewekily, Hathawakhila)
Captain Henry Fleet, one of the later Jamestown settlers, who had
been captured by the Nacostine [on the Anacostia River at the mouth of Oxon Run]
Indians on the Potomac River in 1621 and remained among them as a prisoner for
several years, after his return to England, made a number of trading
voyages to the Chesapeake Bay, and carried back cargoes of furs.
He was there in 1632, and sailed up the Potomac River to the head of
navigation [Great Falls].
In his Journal Fleet states, that "the Emperor [of the Powhatans?] is fearful
to punish the Nacostines [Anacostia], because they are protected by the MASSOMACKS
[MASSAWOMEKS ABOVE], or Cannyda [Canada?, or Conestoga?] Indians, who have used to convey all such English truck as comes into the [Potomac] River to the MASSOMACKS...
I find that the Indians of that populous place [the Massomack country] are governed
by four kings,whose towns are of several names, TONHOGA, MOSTICUM, SHAUNETOWA,
and USSERAHAK, reported above 30,000 [later math by Fleet based on 30 towns x 1000 inhabitants per town] persons, and that they have palisades about the towns, made with great trees, and with scaffolds upon the walls."
1632 FLEET'S ACCOUNT
(Fleet's Journal via Neill's Founders of Maryland, Albany, 1876)
[A rival had cleared out the beaver Fleet had ordered on the Potomac River. Fleet is at Anacostia when he meets the Massomack interpreter.}
"The 13th of June I had some conference with an interpreter of Massomack and of divers other Indians that had been lately with them, whose relation was very strange in regard of the abundance of people there, compared to all the other poor number of natives which are in Patomack and places adjacent, where are not above five thousand persons, and also of the infinite store of beaver they use in coats. Diverse were the imaginations that I did conceive about this discovery, and understanding that the river was not for shipping, where the[se] people were, not yet for boats to pass, but for canoes only. I found all my neighbor Indians to be against my design, the Pascattowies having had a great slaughter formerly by them to the number of one thousand persons in my time.
"They coming in their birchen canoes did seek to withdraw me from having any commerce with the other Indians; and the Nacostines were earnest in the matter, because they knew that our trade might hinder their benefit. Yet I endeavored to prosecute my trade with them nevertheless, and therefore made choice of two trusty Indians to be sent along with my brother, who could travel well.
"I find the Indians of that populous place are governed by four kings, whose towns are of several names, Tonhogao, Mosticum, Shaunetowa, and Usserahak, reported above thirty thousand persons, and that they have palisades about the towns made with great trees, and with scaffolds upon the walls. Unto these four kings, I sent four presents in beads, bells, hatchets, knives, and coats, to the value of ~8 sterling. The 14th of June they set forth, and I entreated them to bring these Indians down to the water to the Falls, where they should find me with the ship.
"On Monday, the 25th of June, we set sail for the town of Tohoga [Tonhogao above], when we came to an anchor two leagues short of the Falls [Great Falls], being in the latitude of 41, on the 26th of June. This place without all question is the most pleasant and healthful place in all this country, and most convenient for habitation, the air temperate in summer and not violent in winter. It abounds with all manner of fish. The Indians in one night commonly will catch thirty sturgeons in a place where the river is not above twelve fathom broad. And as for deer, BUFFALOS, bears, turkeys, the woods do swarm with them, and the soil is exceedingly fertile, but above this place the country is rocky and mountainous like Canada.
{BUFFALO PATHS AVAILABLE FOR LAND TRANSIT.]
"The 27th of June I manned my shallop, and went up with the flood, the tide rising about four feet in height at this place. We had not rowed above three miles, but we might hear the Falls to roar about six miles distant, by which it appears that the river is separated with rocks, but only in that one place, for beyond is a fair river.
"The 8d of July, my brother, with the two Indians, came thither, IN WHICH JOURNEY THEY WERE SEVEN DAYS GOING, AND FIVE DAYS COMING BACK TO THIS PLACE. THEY ALL DID AFFIRM THAT IN ONE PALISADO, AND THAT BEING THE LAST OF THIRTY, THERE WERE THREE HUNDRED HOUSES, AND IN EVERY HOUSE FORTY SKINS AT LEAST, IN BUNDLES AND PILES.
[BASED ON THESE TRAVEL TIMES, WHILE THE VILLAGE OF "TIOGA" COULD HAVE BEEN AT ANTEITAM, HARPER'S FERRY, OR PAWPAW, WEST VIRGINIA, BUT THE SITE OF SHAWNEE OLDTOWN, MARYLAND SEEMS MOST LIKELY.]
"To this king was delivered the four presents, who dispersed them to the rest. The entertainment they had I omit as tedious to relate. There came with them, one-half of the way, one hundred and ten Indians, laden with beaver, which could not be less than 4000 weight. These Indians were made choice of by the whole nation, to see what we were, what was our intent, and whether friends or foes, and what commodities we had, but they were met with by the way by the Nacostines, who told them we purposed to destroy those that came in our way, in revenge of the Pascattowaies, being hired to do so for 114 skins, which were delivered aforesaid, for a present, as a preparative.
"But see the inventions of devils: the life of my brother, by this tale of the Nacostines, was much endangered. The next morning I went to the Nacostines to know the reason of this business, who answered, they did know no otherwise, but that if I would make a firm league with them, and give their king a present, then they would undertake to bring those other Indians down. The refusal of this offer was the greatest folly that I have ever committed, in mine opinion. "
"The 10th of July, about one o'clock we discerned an Indian on the other side of the river, who with a shrill sound, cried, "Quo! Quo! Quo!" holding up a beaver skin upon a pole. I went ashore to him, who then gave me the beaver skin, with his hatchet, and laid down his head with a strange kind of behavior, using some few words, which I [later] learned, but to me [then] it was a foreign language. I cheered him, told him he was a good man, and clapped him on the breast with my hands. Whereupon he started up, and used some complimental speech, leaving his things with me ran up the hill.
"Within the space of half an hour, he returned, with five more, one being a woman, and AN INTERPRETER [was this the woman?], at which I rejoiced, and so I expressed myself to them, showing them courtesies. These were laden with beaver, and CAME FROM A TOWN CALLED USSERAHAK, WHERE WERE SEVEN THOUSAND INDIANS. I carried these Indians aboard, and traded with them for their skins.
[FLEET'S BROTHER ARRIVED IN TOHOGA AROUND 20 JUNE, AND FLEET'S PRESENTS WERE DISTRIBUTED FROM THERE. THE TRAVEL TIME DOWN THE POTOMAC RIVER FROM TOHOGA WAS 5 DAYS, SO FROM TOHOGA (OLDTOWN MARYLAND?) TO USSERAHAK AND BACK TO GREAT FALLS HAD TO BE WITHIN A TRAVEL TIME OF 15 DAYS.]
"THEY DREW A PLOT OF THEIR COUNTRY, and told me there came with them sixty canoes, but were interrupted by the Nacostines, who always do wait for them, and were hindered by them. Yet these, it would seem, were resolute, not fearing death, and would adventure to come down. These promised, [that] if I would show them my truck, to get great store of canoes to come down with one thousand Indians that should trade with me. I had but little, not worth above one hundred pound sterling, and such as was not fit for these Indians to trade with, WHO DELIGHT IN HATCHETS, AND KNIVES OF LARGE SIZE, BROAD-CLOTH, AND COATS, SHIRTS, AND SCOTTISH STOCKINGS. The women desire bells, and some kind of beads.'
[THESE TRADE GOODS HAD TO HAVE COME FROM EITHER THE CAROLINA ENGLISH, THE FLORIDA SPANISH, THE CANADIAN FRENCH, OR THE DUTCH OF NEW AMSTERDAM]
"The 11th of July there came from another place seven lusty men, with strange attire; they had red fringe, and two of them had beaver coats, which they gave me. Their language was haughty, and they seemed to ask me what I did there, and demanded to see my truck, which, upon view, they scorned. They had two axes, such as Captain Kirk traded in Canada, which he bought at Whits of Wapping, and there I bought mine, and think I had as good as he.
"But these Indians, after they came aboard, seemed to be fair conditioned, and ONE OF THEM, TAKING A PIECE OF CHALK, MADE A PLAIN DEMONSTRATION OF THEIR COUNTRY, WHICH WAS NOTHING DIFFERENT FROM THE FORMER PLOT DRAWN BY THE OTHER INDIANS [THOSE FROM USSERAHAK]. THESE CALLED THEMSELVES MOSTIKUMS,[MUSKINGHUMS] BUT AFTERWARDS I FOUND THEY WERE OF A PEOPLE THREE DAYS' JOURNEY FROM THESE, AND WERE CALLED HERECKEENES, WHO, WITH THEIR OWN BEAVER, AND WHAT THEY GET OF THOSE THAT DO ADJOIN UPON THEM, DO DRIVE A TRADE IN CANADA, AT THE PLANTATION, WHICH IS FIFTEEN DAYS' JOURNEY FROM THIS PLACE. These people delight not in toys, but in useful commodities.
[THESE TWO MAPS MISSING NOW]
[NOTE WELL - IT APPEARS THAT EITHER THE PISCATWAY OR ANACOSTIA ALERTED THE FIVE NATIONS, OR ELSE THE ERIE LEARNED OF FLEET'S VISIT VIA "TOHOGA". WHOEVER THE "HERECKEENES" WERE, THEY LIVED THREE DAYS FROM THE MUSKINGUM RIVER, AND THEY WERE CLAIMING TITLE TO THE MUSKINGUM RIVER IN 1632, WELL BEFORE THE USUALLY GIVEN START OF THE "BEAVER WARS".]
"There was one William Elderton very desirous to go with them, but being cannibals I advised him rather to go with the others, whither I had sent a present, telling him they had no good intentions, yet upon his earnest entreaty, though unwilling, I licensed him to proceed, and sent a present with him to their king, one of them affirming that they were a people of one of the four aforenamed nations. But I advised my man to carry no truck along, lest it might be a means to endanger his life. Nevertheless, as I was afterwards informed, he carried a coat, and other things to the value of ten shillings more, and on the 14th of July departed.
"The 15th of July the [Tohoga] Indians were returned with the interpreter, according to promise, and, being come, looked about for William [Elderton] our interpreter, to whom I made relation whither he was gone, and they seemed to lament for him, as if he were lost, saying, that the men with whom he went would eat him, that these people were not their friends, but that they were HERECHEENES.
At the departure of these Indians [the Herecheenes], they told me that two hundred Indians were come to the place from whence they came with store of English truck to trade for beaver, and told us they had a purpose to come down and visit us, and take a view of our commodities, and they inquired after divers kinds of commodities, of which I had some very good, part of which I gave them, and sent them away, desiring them to follow after the other Indians, and to get away my man. All this time did my truck spend not so much upon beaver as upon victuals, having nothing but what we bought of the Indians, of whom we had fish, beans, and boiled corn. The seamen, nevertheless. hoped to sell away all their clothes for beaver.
The 18th of July I went to the Pascattowaies, and there excused myself for trading with those who were [their] enemies, and from thence I hired sixteen Indians, and brought them to the ship, and made one of them my merchant, and delivered to them, equally divided, the best part of my truck, which they carried up for me to trade with their countrymen; and I gave charge to the factor to find out my man, and to bring him along with them when they came back.
[PISCATOWAY AT OCCOQUAN AND/OR MARSHALL HALL AT THIS TIME. THEIR MIGRATION APPEARS TO HAVE OCCURRED IN 1609, SPARKING A MOSSAWOMEK ATTACK.]
"The 7th of August these Indians returned, and the TOHOGAES sent me eighty skins with the truck again, who showed these Indians great packs of beaver, saying there were nine hundred of them coming down by winter, after they had received assurance of our love by the USSERAHAKS, although the Nacostines had much labored the contrary.
[NOTE TRAVEL TIME TO TOHOGA AND BACK: 15 JULY-7 AUGUST. TOHOGAES MADE OFFER BY SENDING FURS BACK WITH GOODS.]
"And yet they were all at a stand for a time, by reason of two rumors that had raised, the one, that I had no good truck, neither for quantity, nor for quality; the other that one of our men was slain by the Hirechenes, three days' journey beyond them, and that they [the Herechenes] had beguiled us with the name of MOSTICUMS, ONE OF THEIR CONFEDERATE NATIONS. Nevertheless, they being desirous to have some trial of us, had sent us these skins, minding to have an answer whether we would be so satisfied of this deceit or no, and that THEY WOULD COME ALL FOUR NATIONS and trade with us upon their guard.
"I liked this motion very well, but was unwilling to protract time, because I had but little victuals, and small store of trucking stuff, and therefore I sailed down to Pascattowie, and so to a town on this side of it called Moyumpse. Here came [the] THREE CANNIBALS OF USSERAHAK, TOHOGA, AND MOSTICUM; THESE USED MANY COMPLIMENTING SPEECHES AND RUDE ORATIONS, SHOWING THAT THEY DESIRED US TO STAY FIFTEEN DAYS, AND THEY WOULD COME WITH A GREAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT SHOULD TRADE WITH US AS FORMERLY THEY HAD SPOKEN. I gave them all courteous entertainment, and so sent them back again.
[THE ANACOSTIA HAD ACCUSED THE MASSOWEKS OF CANNIBALISM AND HOSTILITY.]
[THE REPRESENTATIVE FROM MOSTICUM ARRIVED 7 AUGUST; ASSUMING PRESENTS DISTRIBUTED FROM TOHOGA JUNE 20, 17 DAYS LATER. LESS THE 5 DAY CANEO TRIP FROM TOHOGA TO GREAT FALLS, MOSTICUM [MUSKINGUM] HAD TO BE WITHIN A 12 DAY ROUNDTRIP JOURNEY FROM TOHOGA.]
[THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM "SHAUNETOWA" WERE EXPECTED TO ARRIVE AROUND 21 AUGUST. ASSUMING PRESENTS DISTRIBUTED FROM TOHOGA JUNE 20, THAT IS 30 DAYS TRAVEL; LESS THE 5 DAY CANOE LEG DOWN THE POTOMAC, "SHAUNEETOWA" WAS 25 DAYS ROUNDTRIP FROM TOHOGA [OLDTOWN MARYLAND].
"TOHOA" - possibly cognate with "ford";
Gatschet, The Massawomeks, American Antiquarian, July, 1881, citing Margry:
"The following passages may also be adduced from Pierre Margry, De'couvertes, vol. I:
"they (the Sonnontouans) [Seneca], were told that we came from Onnontio
(the French Governor), to see the tribes called by them Toagenha, living
on the river Ohio, and that we requested them to furnish us a slave, as
a guide to these parts." (p. 130.)
"A prisoner, said to be of the Toaguenhas, spoke Algonkin, but his dialect
differed more from the good Algonkin than that of the Outaouacs [Ottowa]." (pp. 133-134.)
"The Soimontouans [Seneca] told our Dutch interpreter that he was
a fool to act as our guide to the Toaguenha, who were very dangerous
people, and would certainly assail us at night, after lurking
around our camp-fires; that we would run the danger of meeting
the Antastoes along the Ohio River [Andastes of Susquehanna River on Alleghenny],
who would most certainly "break our heads," and that on this account the Sonnontouans
declined to come with us, lest the extermination of the French
may be imputed to them. The distance from their town to
Ohio River was unanimously stated to be six days' land travel of
twelve leagues each day but if we travelled by water on Lake
Erie, we could reach the Ohio by three days' portages (pp. 137-
138). Report of one of La Salle's travels by the Abbe de
Gallinee, 1669-1670.
"To the name Tonhoga we may also compare that of the Tohoa-irough-roonan,
who lived within or north of the Alleghany ridge, perhaps in West Virginia,
and whom the Iroquois claimed to have conquered (Treaty of Lancaster, 1744).
....
Hanna: In an interesting article on these passages in Fleet's Journal, Mr.
Albert S. Gatschet suggests the similarity of the name of one of the
Massomack towns, Tonhoga, with Tongoria, Colden's name for the Eries;
and with TOUGUENHA, the name of that tribe of whom THE SENECAS TOLD
LA SALLE IN 1669, THAT THEY LIVED ON THE OHIO RIVER, and of whom GALLINEE
STATES THAT THEY SPOKE A CORRUPT ALGONQUIN, MEANING, PROBABLY, THE
TRIBE OF THE SHAWNEES. The Skauneiawa town of the Massomacks^
Gatschet identifies with Sonnoniouan, or Senecaa. Gatschet thought
the seven days' journey of Edward Fleet and his Indian guides was
toward the country of the Massomacks. This is rather doubtful.
[Hanna was wrong there. 7 days from Great Falls up the Potomac River was
Shawnee Oldtown, Maryland, but not to Kittianing.]
........
"MOSTICUM" - Muskingum [shawnee "mos-ke-quie"="large ponds, or small lakes"]
"USSERAHAK" - 7,000 inhabitants; Charlestown, W. Va.- Marietta?
"SHAUNETOWA" - could mean either "Shawnee Prarie" or "Shawnee Town" - either Portsmouth,
Circleville, or The Scioto [shawnee "scioto"="pretty"] River Prarie
....
There is, in the Relation of the Abbe Galinee (1669-70), as given by
Margry, another statement that refers to the Shawnees, and indicates
the locality of a part of the tribe at that time. Speaking of the com-
mencement of La Salle's journey to the southwest, and the reason for
it, Galinee writes:
"Our fleet consisted of seven canoes, each with three men,
which departed from Montreal the sixth day of July, 1669, under
the guidance of two canoes of Iroquois Sonnontoueronons (Senecas), who
had come to Montreal in the autumn of the year 1668 to do their hunting
and trading.
These people, while here, had stayed quite a long time at M. de la Salle's,
and had told him so many marvels of the Ohio River,
with which they said they were thoroughly acquainted, that they inflamed
in him more than ever the desire to go to see it. They told him that
this river took its rise three days' journey from Sonnontouan
[Seneca - this start was most likely on the Aleghenny River], and that
after a month's travel one came upon the Honniasontkeronons [Hanna suggests that these are Piedmont Siouxian, v2p120; Lenape?] and the CHIOUANONS, and, that after having passed the latter, and a great cataract or water-fall that there is in this river [Falls of the Ohio - later Louisville?], one found the Outagame [Wea] and the country of the Iskousogos [Ch'Iskousogos = Chicago's? of the Illinois River - Known to Illini as the "Piase" after their national symbol, the Misi Piase. It appears the Five Nations traveled by canoe to Lake Michigan, and proceeded south from it southern point via the "Chicago" to the Chicagos, and also via the Iroquois River to the Wea.].
In his Migration Legend of the Creek Indians, Gatschet describes two of these
[Shawneee] towns among the Creeks under the name of Sawokli and Sawanogi (pp. 142-43).
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
keep on coming, Diana..
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Concerning Oldtown, Maryland: a book History of Cumberland, (Maryland) from the Time of the Indian Town, Caiuctucuc, in 1728, Up to the Present Day published in 1878 states that "a century ago" the Oldtown settlement was called "Shawanese Oldtown" , eventually becoming only "Oldtown".
https://books.google.com/books?id=8dhAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=shawanese+old+town+maryland&source=bl&ots=KzEQB21Dlg&sig=AO0697dmBmnBIaiu3cX4UFEycVg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RW-NVZbjOZPSoATa57rAAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=shawanese%20old%20town%20maryland&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=8dhAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=shawanese+old+town+maryland&source=bl&ots=KzEQB21Dlg&sig=AO0697dmBmnBIaiu3cX4UFEycVg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RW-NVZbjOZPSoATa57rAAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=shawanese%20old%20town%20maryland&f=false)
In 1741 Thomas Cresap established a trading post at the abandoned village.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldtown,_Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldtown,_Maryland)
So we are back well before 1741 at this point.
So descendants of residents of Oldtown, Maryland cannot accurately claim NDN heritage (that they claim only because of that specific residence).
Concerning what information was collected for various census: for instance in 1920:
Color or race
Enumerators were to enter "W" for White, "B" for Black, "Mu" for mulatto, "Ch" for Chinese, "Jp" for Japanese, "In" for American Indian, or "Ot" for other races.
https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1920_1.html (https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1920_1.html)
As Diana has already shown, the Adams and Twigg families were listed as white in 1920 and 1900 census. White in census that instructed census enumerators to list Indian if that is what they found. White in an area that was considered an abandoned village in 1741 when a trading post was established.
E.P. Grondine, telling us about history of the area from 1586 to 1670 in no way proves anything about your family, it certainly does not prove your claim of 1/8.
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I never said I was Indian.
I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) Shawnee descent.
Keep on cc0oming...
Quote from Grondine earlier in thread.
From 2011:
You ask a simple question as to my Shawnee ancestry. The simple answer is that it appears to have come from Bent Twigg of (Shawnee) Oldtown, Maryland.
There is no doubt that my division is Sewighili, now called Thawagili.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3180.msg28830#msg28830 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3180.msg28830#msg28830)
"appears to have come from" does not = fact
Diana's work stands. As does Ben Barnes' offer:
So, if your 1/8th, Great grandma was a Full Blood! That is easy to track down! We will even help! What was her name. We will either find her, or publish the truth.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4536.msg40515#msg40515 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4536.msg40515#msg40515)
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A clarification of this:
So descendants of residents of Oldtown, Maryland cannot accurately claim NDN heritage (that they claim only because of that specific residence).
If I had people from Oldtown Maryland, counted in the 1900 and 1920 census as white, who did not marry NDNS, who were not part of a living NDN (including Shawnee) culture - I would not claim I was 1/8 Shawnee based on my people being from Oldtown. Residence would not be enough evidence. Family stories would not be enough evidence. Me claiming that I am 1/8 Shawnee would not be enough evidence.
If I found evidence that I had distant NDN heritage, that is what I would say, that the heritage was distant. Distant heritage would not give me the right to hold forth as a supposed expert.
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So some questions to Grondine from elsewhere:
What type of DNA test did you take? Who says you are 1/8 Shawnee? You mentioned your mother, did your mother claim Shawnee heritage?
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@E P Grondine, I just skimmed over some of your so called journalistic writing and just to let you know BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. I don't have a lot of time this afternoon but will respond later tonight, hopefully.
Diana
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As Diana has already shown, the Adams and Twigg families were listed as white in 1920 and 1900 census. White in census that instructed census enumerators to list Indian if that is what they found. White in an area that was considered an abandoned village in 1741 when a trading post was established.
The census workers would never mark a full-blood NDN person as "white." They went by what someone looked like, and they were not looking to help people pass. Fullbloods do not look white. If she looked NDN but didn't want to be recorded as such, and lied, she may have been marked "mulatto", "black" or even Asian by the census-taker, but not white.
I see a mention of DNA. DNA cannot tell someone they have a percentage of Shawnee blood. I've done some work with DNA and there are not enough Shawnee in any of the DNA databases to indicate a Shawnee match. Further, there are not enough NDNs, period, in the databases to make accurate BQ counts. No currently-existing database can confirm an ancestor from a specific tribe.
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@E P Grondine, I just skimmed over some of your so called journalistic writing and just to let you know BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. I don't have a lot of time this afternoon but will respond later tonight, hopefully.
Diana
Ah, but they call it "citizen journalism" now. :) :)
As one person pointed out (paraphrasing from something I heard on the radio): "I would put as much faith in a "citizen journalist" as I would a "citizen surgeon".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_journalism
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@E P Grondine, ok lets review, we have established that you're not Shawnee you are white and fyi Shawnees are Indians. And if you're still confused about what a Shawnee Indian is please ask Chief Ben Barns to explain things to you, I'm sure he wouldn't mind. Also just to clear up any other confusion BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. Soooo, just keep it coming. Lol.
Diana
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Hi Diana -
Be sure to tell Keith Cowing at Nasawatch and Leonard David and the other reporters at space.com that using the interenet to distribute news is not "reporting". Just because I was among the first, using the internet to report to what was then the narrow group of specialists in asteroid and comet impact, does not reduce me. By the way, they're were no "bloggers" when I started doing this.
I also reported for print publications from about 1985-6 on, turning to asteroid and comet impact reporting in 1997.
I also should mention to you that the memories of impact held by Native American peoples are largely dismissed as fantasies by European historians and used to belittle, diminish, and dismiss their histories. And that many peoples remembered where they were when these things hit, which has a lot of implications as regards the implementation of NAGPRA.
Hi Piff -
Given the Ohio Historical Society's continued efforts to remove the Shanwee from Ohio's history, this report from Fleet is important. While the information on the Five Nation's attacks on the Shawnee living then in Ohio is widely available, the Ohio Historical Society continues to promote the myth of the "Wandering Shawnee".
Cresap was a real SOB, who later moved to what is today known as Brownsville, Pennsylvania, one of the site's of my ancestors' division's ceremonial centers.
While the flats in Shawnee Oldtown were abandoned, the "hollers" were not.
I am amazed by and enjoy reading about my Native ancestors' resistance and survival.
You will probably enjoy reading the materials about Martin Chartier and Peter Chartier which are easily available online. Also Charles Augustus Hannah's rare book "The Wilderness Road" available for free via google books. I really like the part where Pennsylvania colonists and Virginia colonists fight for Ohio.
Since my father's family history and genetic load is well documented,while Mom's side has no written records that I know of, only what was spoken about in the family, I have repeatedly stated that I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) division Shawnee descent.
Since other people of "distant" ancestry have provided fodder for various mischief, the only way I can see of preventing this would be for the Shawnee National Organization to form a Shawnee National Ancestry Association. That would prevent these various groups from forming. The current members of such groups would leave them to join such an organization.
I think that other nations will face this problem in the future. The Shawnee and Cherokee just face it now because they were among the first peoples to be conquered and generate "distant ancestors"
If full tribal members look at the inter-marriage occuring, and the adoption of strange beliefs, and then consider what will happen in the next generation out, perhaps they will understand why I think what I think about this.
I hope that the leaders of the US Shawnee "bands" will not forget about the Shawnee living in refuge among the Kettle Point Ojibwe, and will support them in their efforts to gain separate Canadian federal recognition.
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Since my father's family history and genetic load is well documented,while Mom's side has no written records that I know of, only what was spoken about in the family, I have repeatedly stated that I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) division Shawnee descent.
E.P., you are incorrect here, your mother's side of the family does have written records. Diana has laid out quite a few of the relevant ones here already.
Stating repeatedly that you are 1/8 Shawnee descent does not make it so.
From what you have written here, we can assume that what you do have are family stories. Individual family stories alone do not make for fact.
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Hi Piff -
You are very correct that individual family stories do not make it so - I hear them all of the time. Often descent from "Cherokee" is claimed in the East, while "Blackfoot" descent is claimed in the midwest. I give these people the diabetes warning and point them to good genealogists.
I also went back to Oldtown Days and asked other Twigg descendents.
One family graveyard is located at Ft Ashby, the other in a "holler".
The firm that I used at that time (2006) was the best I knew of, then located in Tampa.
Several years ago, having reached a certain age, two of my cousins began working on their own genealogies, and asked for copies of a notarized copy of a page from a family bible - they likely have much more information now. I suppose it is a very good time to give them a call.
As to Thawaghili survival past Cresap, you will probably enjoy reading about General Washington's problems at Fort Cumberland.
Given my ancestors ingenuity in surviving the conquest, I would not be too surprised at finding that they hired one of their own to do the census taking.
I have no idea when the federal government began them.
[:o) ;).]
I hope that my answers so far have satisfied everyone that I was a space journalist - my stroke in 2005 and diabetes ended that, and set me on a new path.
It is now difficult for me to type, and well that most of your questions concern materials I was working on at the time of my stroke, and located in parts of my brain not destroyed by it.
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@E P Grondine, you are a bald face liar and are utterly full B.S. Not only do you make outrageous claims of being a journalist you also claimed to be a historian. Did you think we wouldn't do a thorough job of investigating you?? Hmm...it's funny how you've never mentioned Twigg Town. Which By the way is about a stone's throw from Old Town. Just to let everyone know Twigg Town is E P Grondine's family's home town. The town was literally named after his ancestors and is still there today. You can go to Twiggtown.org or just Google Twigg Town Maryland and a plethora of Twigg Town info will come up. Very impressive. The town was actually started in the 1600's wow! And the Twigg family has posted their genealogy all the way back to the 1600's.
One more thing EP, posting on an INTRA OFFICE WEBSITE is not journalism. I used to work in the middle of Silicon Valley my office also had an intra office website. It was used for informing the office workers of news updates, things that concerned our business also for marketing, accounting and the president of the company wrote his weekly op ed piece. It was a weekly informative newsletter. Again writing for an inter office news letter/website is not journalism.
Diana
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Hi Diana -
From your comments I have to assume either
1) that you are connected either with the well paid and well funded professional holocaust deniers of the Ohio Hisstorical Society,
or those confused by them of
2) with the self proclaimed "wiccan"fllowers weho show up at Serpent Mound.
Whatever the case, keep on coming....
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Hi Piff -
I contacted both of my cousins. One stopped her genealogical search due to a change in residence. The other cousin shared with me more conversations with her father about his native descent.
But as you said, family stories do not count for much - I hear them all of the time.
IN any case, since the conquest of most of the Thawagila division took place before the formation of the federal government, reconstructing its "rolls" will require an exhauastive search through the records of Fort Cumberland, and an exhaustive search through local land records.
The local history reading room in Cumberland, Maryland was shut down years ago, and I have no idea where its materials may be available.
The Provincial records for Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania are most likely well scattered, from here to London.
The cousin I mentioned above came to a halt in her genealogy work due to the scattering of records cause by the formation of the state of West Virginia and the Civil War.
You can estimate as well as I can the cost for travel, food and lodging.
So let's look for shortcuts to those records -
This search may have been undertaken by a local genealogist who I met at one of my uncles funerals.
But locating him again, if he is still alive, is going to be difficult.
This may also have been attempted by a group which bought some land several years ago, and attempted to re-found the division.
I understand that their attempt came to an end with their passing,
so locating any genealogical materials they may have gathered will be difficult.
That leaves any "local" museums, or historical societies, and the problem of locating them and visiting them.
By the way, the first Adams in the Adams family graveyard at Fort Ashby appears to have arrived there with the second garrison to man it, after its first garrison was annihilated by the Monocans.
Other tasks before me are helping to geologically document fully the destruction of around 95% of the people living in North America around 10,500 BCE - and passing on the different peoples' memories of those events. As I mentioned before, about a billion dollars and many many lives are at stake.
Also, I have located the location of notes from the last properly trained Shawnee "traditional" historian - I need to get to them, assemble them, and pass them on.
Then there is the struggle with the well paid and well funded holocaust deniers of the Ohio Historical Society, and dealing with those confused by them.
Then there is the problem, of creating e-books, so that the traditional histories of many peoples which I have collected are more easily available and readable.
Then there is the problem of the memories of the Andaste and Yazoo, and locating someone to assemble Vine DeLoria's last book.
Where should reconstructing Thawagila (modern spelling) "rolls" fall into this?
I will try to get my DNA results to you - the only other possible candidates for that genetic load except for Thawagili are Conwsay (unlikely), Five Nations (unlikely), and Lenape (unlikely).
While such "rolls" might prove useful to other descendants, it is unlikely that it would stop some people from their slanders;
the only benefit might be if there existed some Shawnee National Ancestry Organization. set up following the establishment of a Shawnee National Organization.
Now as to the net - I generally drink coffee and smoke cigarettes in the morning to get the left side of my body and brain working - typing these brief notes for you is an effort, but I feel it is worth it.
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E.P., I am not the good cop, Diana is not the bad cop.
I am not the good cop or the arbiter.
-
This went from enraging to amusing. Good work, all.
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This went from enraging to amusing. Good work, all.
I know! Now the white coot thinks I'm some kind of spy from of all places "OHIO" lol. Just to ease your mind old white man I'm born and raised in the pacific northwest and have never been farther east then the Dakotas. I think he's off his meds.
Diana
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remember DNA dos not count with Native people,
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Hi Piff -
Its not a question of good cop or bad cop, but of the truth.
The path has a way of protecting itself.
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Hi Diana -
These were not put up just for you:
http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%201.pdf
http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%202.pdf
http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%203.pdf
I hope that everyone will grab copies and share them while you can.
I hope this clears things up for Ingebourg, and for keely, and for many others.
Diana, other people have called me a liar over the years, and I expect they will in the future.
They had, have, and will have their reasons for doing this.
But if you bother to read my book,
you will find that what I did in it was to pass on what was passed on by the traditional history keepers,
keeping my understanding of it separate from what was passed on.
It is one thing to call me a "liar", it is another to call them "liars".
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LOL he keeps bringing Keely into this. hahahahaa
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The path has a way of protecting itself.
Yes, it certainly has.
I hope this clears things up for Ingebourg, and for keely, and for many others.
Emphasis mine
Mr Grondine or Grandshine or whatever, I am not concerned with your genealogy - just with your distortions of history aka pseudo-science.
As far as your claims are concerned, there is only one question I would like to ask:
WTH is a "1/8 DNA" ?
And as far as you're insisting on mis-spilling my name: You should have realised by now that being rude doesn't get you anywhere here, it just gets you banned.
Speaking of rudeness - how about this:
... you are connected either with the well paid and well funded professional holocaust deniers of the Ohio Hisstorical Society ...
Once more being disrespectful towards an indigenous board member. In a discussion regarding whether your claims of ancestry might be appropriate or not, this seems a somewhat unfortunate strategy to apply, don't you agree? Well, you probably don't, but do keep in mind that Nazi allegations and comparisons usually get introduced in the absence of facts and arguments.
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Diana, other people have called me a liar over the years, and I expect they will in the future.
They had, have, and will have their reasons for doing this.
@EP Grondine, how sad. And I sincerely mean that. You know, I haven't been called a liar since I was a child on the school yard play ground. And a couple of times as an adult by two ex's. Other than that I have never in my adult life been called a liar or been accused of lying. Nor have I given anyone a reason to call me that name either professionally or personally.
P.S. Don't open EP Grondine's podcast link on his previous post. I received a msg "This type of file can harm your devices". Becareful!
Diana
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Hi Diana -
I have regularly been called a liar by those who do not wish to hear the truth, or for it to be known.
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Hi Ingeborg -
I am not concerned about my distortions of history, as I check with traditional history keepers.
I am concerned with people who imitate me, and then claim that it is my work.
As after your post, I went and googled my own name and found it happening again,
thank you.
(I cut and pasted your name this time.)
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Hi Piff -
Two other items in that list.
First, as concerns "the Beaver Wars" where it is purported that Dutch merchants traded guns to the Five Nations for furs.
That is not exactly what happened, as the Puritans traded guns to the Five Nations so they could attack everyone trading with any other European nation. You can read "Island at the Center of the World" for the start of this.
Some archaeologists have forgotten that the low countries gave the Puritans refuge, and that they continued to have operations there. But checking the records of the gun manufacturers will require travel to Amsterdam, New York, etc.
Second, while the principal village site of the Thawagila division is preserved and in good hands,there may be remains of ceremonial complexes yet to be saved between Oldtown Maryland and Pittsburgh.
The best notes on these are likely to be found in Benjamin Barton's papers, which are scattered throughout the eastern cities.
There is the problem of the myth of the "Wandering Shawnee" to deal with,
and to end completely.
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Hi Ingeborg -
I am not concerned about my distortions of history, as I check with traditional history keepers.
I am concerned with people who imitate me, and then claim that it is my work.
As after your post, I went and googled my own name and found it happening again,
thank you.
(I cut and pasted your name this time.)
I suppose it's too much to ask the names of these traditional history keepers... LOL
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gee my old friend Keely has not been on this site for along time,
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I am very careful with my words.
I never claimed to be a member of Shawnee nation. I claimed "distant ancestry, or as I put it:
"enough for diabetes and a stroke, but not enough for the casino"
As far as being as journalist, I was.
(Some of you should be receiving copies of the materials that I sent to Al.)
Stroke prevented me from continuing.
As far as my book of history goes, I always make it clear that I assembled it, using traditional histories, the archaeological record, the geological record, and the climatic records.
Any of you may read a copy of it via inter-library loan.
The book usually sends frauds into screaming that I am a liar, etc, etc.
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I am currently living across from White Hawk's ring here at Newark, Ohio with my Micosukee lady-friend, (that is a Micosukee, not Black Seminole, who was raised on their lands in Florida)
a retired nurse who has kept me going for the last three years.
She does not appreciate the stress you are causing me (my left hand keeps clawing),
nor the time I am spending running this guantlet, time which she feels should be spent with her.
On the other hand (the one I type with) I think that it is worth it.
Why?
Because people of distant ancestry form the victims among whom many spiritual thieves first operate.
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When I wrote ( or assembled) "Man and Impact in the Americas" instead of "Man and Impct in the Ancient Near East")
I did so because I did not want to deal with nationalism in the mid-east.
I forgot that there were 500 Nations.
Since I always plainly tell people that I am not a spiritual guide,
some of you have problems with the traditional histories,
as I am neither a New Age Fraud nor a Plastic Shaman.
Thus I find that I am going to have to kill the myth of the "wandering" Shawnee,
and drive a stake through its heart.
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I am currently living across from White Hawk's ring here at Newark, Ohio with my Micosukee lady-friend, (that is a Micosukee, not Black Seminole, who was raised on their lands in Florida)
a retired nurse who has kept me going for the last three years.
She does not appreciate the stress you are causing me (my left hand keeps clawing),
nor the time I am spending running this guantlet, time which she feels should be spent with her.
On the other hand (the one I type with) I think that it is worth it.
Why?
Because people of distant ancestry form the victims among whom many spiritual thieves first operate.
(My bolding)
There seems to be a conflict in where you live. On May 27, 2015, you said:
Quote from: Larry Cope on May 22, 2015, 12:59:20 am
Hello Ben.
I live in Ohio and have heard of everyone of those groups at one time or other. Having done research, dismissed each one as fakes and wannabes. I know one sect has acquired and operates Zane's Caverns near Bellefontaine. I think it's the Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band. The caverns impressed me, but nothing else.
Hi Larry -
I do not live in Ohio, but I have heard much about these groups.
I was told that Jerry Pope has met his fate, and the United Remnant Band affair has nearly come to end,
with but a few details yet to be cleared up.
He leaves behind great damage and many victims.
I will have to disagree with both your and Keely Dennison's assessment of the East of the River.
Some of the individuals involved in it have done great work in preserving ancient ceremonial sites
while working under extreme difficulties.
(My Bolding)
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4536.0
So, do you live in Ohio or not?
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I'd also like to mention that keely's attack on Jack Blosser and the Fort Ancient Celebration is far beyond the pales.
While the CNO may have trouble with people of Native ancestry mixed with African American ancestry,
they will always be welcomed at the Celebration,
just as they always have been.
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I also have a house in Kempton, Illinois, where I have spent part of my year.
I am currently registered to vote there, and is my legal residence.
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She does not appreciate the stress you are causing me (my left hand keeps clawing),
nor the time I am spending running this guantlet, time which she feels should be spent with her.
On the other hand (the one I type with) I think that it is worth it.
Why?
Because people of distant ancestry form the victims among whom many spiritual thieves first operate.
Poor E.P. Grondine. Poor, poor, E.P. Grondine. I feel so sorry for him. We should cut him all the slack, because disagreeing with him harms his "lady-friend." And this message board is definitely about protecting PODIAs, not Native Americans and their cultures.
If you're not fooling this white woman, you're probably not fooling anyone.
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I am currently living across from White Hawk's ring here at Newark, Ohio with my Micosukee lady-friend, (that is a Micosukee, not Black Seminole, who was raised on their lands in Florida)
a retired nurse who has kept me going for the last three years.
She does not appreciate the stress you are causing me (my left hand keeps clawing),
nor the time I am spending running this guantlet, time which she feels should be spent with her.
On the other hand (the one I type with) I think that it is worth it.
Why?
Because people of distant ancestry form the victims among whom many spiritual thieves first operate.
Did you seriously just refer to non-Miccosukees as Black Seminoles? Wow. You have to be kidding me.
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I am very careful with my words.
I never claimed to be a member of Shawnee nation. I claimed "distant ancestry, or as I put it:
"enough for diabetes and a stroke, but not enough for the casino"
As far as being as journalist, I was.
(Some of you should be receiving copies of the materials that I sent to Al.)
Stroke prevented me from continuing.
As far as my book of history goes, I always make it clear that I assembled it, using traditional histories, the archaeological record, the geological record, and the climatic records.
Any of you may read a copy of it via inter-library loan.
The book usually sends frauds into screaming that I am a liar, etc, etc.
@ EP Grondine, no, you are not careful with your words and you know it. You try to spilt hairs by saying ridiculous things such as "I never said I was Indian" but you said I am 1/8 Shawnee, Lol or in this post "I never claimed to be a member of Shawnee nation", we never said you did. And "you" never claimed to have distant ancestry which is true, you claimed 1/8 Shawnee. And please stop with the insults of diabetes, stroke and especially your racists remarks about casinos. Your whiteness is showing.
Again one more time with feeling: 1. We have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that YOU'RE WHITE. 2. You're NOT A JOURNALIST 3. You're NOT A HISTORIAN
End of story. Oh and one more thing, please stop with all the faux colonial history tangents. They don't prove your point and are not helpful with your cause. They only make you look desperate and CRAZY WHITE.
Diana
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I will post these again, this is EP Grondines GREAT GRAND PARENTS. As you can see Charles Twigg was born in 1842 and his great grand mother Hannah C Twigg nee Hannah Catherine Goldsborough was born in 1861. They are all white and this is from Ancestry.com. Also on Ancestry.com is EP Grondines entire family tree going all the way back to the 1600's. I hope this puts an end to EP Grondines claims of Shawnee/Indian heritage. And his weird postings of him having to search across America for scattered info on his family records, when all I did was look on Ancestry.com.
Also, EP Grondine's immediate family websites and genealogy. Just click on the links.
www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mdallegh/Twiggtown.html
www.twiggtown.org
www.twiggtown.net
Two Hundred Years of Land Records of Twigg Family ...
files.usgwarchives.net/md/allegany/land/twigglandall.txt
A Chronological Survey of the Twigg Family in Maryland File
files.usgwarchives.net/md/allegany/bios/twiggland.txt
Ancestry
Charles Twigg in the 1900 United States Federal Census
Name:
Charles Twigg
Age:
58
Birth Date:
Mar 1842
Birthplace:
Maryland
Home in 1900:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
Race:
White
Gender:
Male
Relation to Head of House:
Head
Marital Status:
Married
Spouse's Name:
Hanah C Twigg
Marriage Year:
1880
Years Married:
20
Father's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland
Occupation:
View on Image
Neighbors:
View others on page
Household Members:
Name
Age
Charles Twigg 58
Hanah C Twigg 38
Bertha E Twigg 19
Maggie M Twigg 16
James C Twigg 13
Mary A Twigg 14
Garrette R Twigg 10
John A Twigg 7
Lurena A Twigg 5
Hestel Pearl Twigg 2
Bessie A Twigg 3/12
Save & create tree ? ?Print Share?
Hanah C Twigg in the 1900 United States Federal Census
Name:
Hanah C Twigg
Age:
38
Birth Date:
Oct 1861
Birthplace:
Maryland
Home in 1900:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
Race:
White
Gender:
Female
Relation to Head of House:
Wife
Marital Status:
Married
Spouse's Name:
Charles Twigg
Marriage Year:
1880
Years Married:
20
Father's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother: number of living children:
9
Mother: How many children:
10
Occupation:
View on Image
Neighbors:
View others on page
Household Members:
Name
Age
Charles Twigg 58
Hanah C Twigg 38
Bertha E Twigg 19
Maggie M Twigg 16
James C Twigg 13
Mary A Twigg 14
Garrette R Twigg 10
John A Twigg 7
Lurena A Twigg 5
Hestel Pearl Twigg 2
Bessie A Twigg 3/12
Save & create tree ?
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Well, now that everyone is here.
I as much as I am historian, was a journalist, and am of 1/8 shawnee descent.
And that I have never claimed to be a spiritual guide
And that the people who usually shout at me are spiritual thieves who concoct
fake histories, but now I find you shoutring at me in an effort to thrown doubt on the traditional histories about the Andaste and Shawnee...
The Colonists policy of conquest has been to diviide and conquer.
Thus people within the Ohio Historical Society has been leading other native
peoples into claiming Shawnee remains in Ohio.
If you look back here, you can find my discussion with Oestriecher about his version of both Shawnee and Lenape histories- in particular his claim that the Lenape medewak did not exist, and his version of Shawnee history.
Ostreicher's work has been funded by Lenape cassino interests for years.
So when the manger of the Lenape casino in Oklahoma shows up and tells me that the Loyal recieved that name because they were loyal to the union in the Civil War. And when Brad Lepper seeks Lenape support for the Ohio Historical Society, and promotes the Lenape memory of a "white road", at the same timeworking his hardest to concoct fake native history on the dime of the people of Ohio...
Let us start by examining the Sioux claims. They are based on the Siouxian tribes who lived back east at the time of European contact. for the southern Siouxian tribes, Catawba and Saponi, their arrival was remembered by the Cherokee.
For the Monocan, the difference between Lenape and Shawnee remains are quite well known to the archaeologists of western Maryland, who know them as Monongahela Late Woodlands and Keyser Late Woodlands respectively.
The Sioux (mengwe in Lenape, any other people later used to describe the mingo, mostly members of other nations who were fleeing the colonists such as Chief Logan) who accompanied them are shown by the catlinite flat disk pipes. The documentation of these in easwtern Ohio may be found in Bob Converse's book "The Archaeology of Ohio" a book which Mr. Lepper plagiarized from (either intentionally or inadvertently) and then suppressed.
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As to how the Loyal Band received their name, it was because they did not support Tecumseh in his effort.
They were rewarded with "reservatons" in Ohio, which were later taken from them under Jackson and they were sent to Kansas
The land in Kansas was taken from them following Lincoln's Homesteading act, and they were given Cherokee lands in Oklahoma.
I suspect that those Cherokee were being punished for supporting the Conderacy during the Cicil War, but that is something that I have not looked at in depth.
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The Andaste were well remembered y the historians of many peoples.
For their stature, see Dragoo and Neuamn's "Mounds for the Dead".
The very late "Adena" survival at the northern end of the Chesapeake Bay is well documented.
The Andaste ("Adena" removal is well remembered by the Cherokee.
The final Shawnee battles with them were remembered by the Five Nations.
Besides the Andaste, other peoples in Ohio who used earth for construction material were the Shawnee, (an at that point in time also the ancesors of at least on division) the Wendat (Huron), and the Erie.
The arrival of one division of the Lenape is marked by the appearance of Marksville.
(earthw7 - for Sioux use of Earth to construct structure, visit the Dakota and Red Wing.)
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Re: the paired rings and rectangles -
The rings were used to teach the constellations at the Fall Bread Dance.
The Shawnee rfered to the instructor as White Hawk, the man who married the daughter of the King of the Stars, while the Cherokee remembered him as the man who married two star maidens, two daughters of the King of the Stars.
The ball courts are pretty self explanatory. Perhaps the one at the gold course reflects the 8 clans of the Cherokee, but it is not certain.
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As to why Cusick did not mention by name the Shawnee in his account of the Five Nations embassy to Chillicothe, and their was with them - it was because they had just sold the Shawnee lands to the "loyal" Virginia Company.
As to why the Shawnee "wandered", it was because they were attacked by the Five Nations, who were armed with guns by the Puritans.
The reason they called the eastern Lenape "grandfathers" was because the Shawnee remnant who Martin Chartier gathered together were allowed refuge among the Lenape by the Provincial Governors after their arrival at Point of Rocks, Maryland.
Other Shawnee returned directly to Ohio after the defeat of the Five Nations by the Three Fires.
Come right on....
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Well, now that everyone is here.
I as much as I am historian, was a journalist, and am of 1/8 shawnee descent.
And that I have never claimed to be a spiritual guide
And that the people who usually shout at me are spiritual thieves who concoct
fake histories, but now I find you shoutring at me in an effort to thrown doubt on the traditional histories about the Andaste and Shawnee...
The Colonists policy of conquest has been to diviide and conquer.
Thus people within the Ohio Historical Society has been leading other native
peoples into claiming Shawnee remains in Ohio.
If you look back here, you can find my discussion with Oestriecher about his version of both Shawnee and Lenape histories- in particular his claim that the Lenape medewak did not exist, and his version of Shawnee history.
Ostreicher's work has been funded by Lenape cassino interests for years.
So when the manger of the Lenape casino in Oklahoma shows up and tells me that the Loyal recieved that name because they were loyal to the union in the Civil War. And when Brad Lepper seeks Lenape support for the Ohio Historical Society, and promotes the Lenape memory of a "white road", at the same timeworking his hardest to concoct fake native history on the dime of the people of Ohio...
Let us start by examining the Sioux claims. They are based on the Siouxian tribes who lived back east at the time of European contact. for the southern Siouxian tribes, Catawba and Saponi, their arrival was remembered by the Cherokee.
For the Monocan, the difference between Lenape and Shawnee remains are quite well known to the archaeologists of western Maryland, who know them as Monongahela Late Woodlands and Keyser Late Woodlands respectively.
The Sioux (mengwe in Lenape, any other people later used to describe the mingo, mostly members of other nations who were fleeing the colonists such as Chief Logan) who accompanied them are shown by the catlinite flat disk pipes. The documentation of these in easwtern Ohio may be found in Bob Converse's book "The Archaeology of Ohio" a book which Mr. Lepper plagiarized from (either intentionally or inadvertently) and then suppressed.
Ok now you cross into my life I know my history and I did not learn it from a book --there are no Sioux people. We are not from the east and so far I can not find a connection to the east in our oral stories beside someone wrote it in a book so its true NOT. Our people before 1800 were only referred to as PteOyate then after the French and the "Rum Wars" we were referred to a the Sioux which mean snake or adder by the Chippewa who were invading our county. so after in the 1800 we were called Sioux. So if you claim to be a part of our nation before 1800 and call yourself Sioux I know you don't belong to us. No matter what THE WHITE HISTORIAN SAYS, we were mound builder I know that and continued to build mounds in Minnesota and the Dakota. I can show you them. I know our villages along the Mississippi River to our travels from South American 2000 years ago. We never fled the americans or the English. Shame on you for lying
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Hi earthw7 -
Thanks for sharing.
I do not know which nation you are a part of : Lakota, Nakota, Dakota, Omaha, Oto-Misouri, Ofofgoula or others.
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Remember, the technique of conquest was and is divide and conquer.
Brad Lepper of the Ohio Historical Society was askde by Chief Glenna Wallace of the Eastern Band to return known Shawnee remains from the contact period to her for proper re-internment.
Instead of doing that, Brad entered into negotiations with the manager of the Lenape casino.
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Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.
It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.
I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.
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Hi DoesDrugsWithHippies -
Shouln't you be out following the Dead on their farewell tour?
In any case, it is rumored that county coffers are dry, and that both marijuana enforcement and DWI enforcement will be tight at the rock concert which is going to be held at Zane's Caverns, the land which Jerry Pope stole.
I need to add here that this is just a rumor so far.
We'll all get to see if it turns out to be true or not.
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Still talking as if he's Native. LOL I'm so glad he was unbanned. :D
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Still talking as if he's Native. LOL I'm so glad he was unbanned. :D
He's talking gibberish! Does anyone know what he's talking about? Maybe he's having another stroke.
@EP Grondine, if you can't refute the records and write a coherent sentence maybe you should leave this forum. We've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're white and "you" yourself unwittingly provided us with proof that you are not a published author or are peer reviewed. Nor are you a historian, regurgitating irrelevant pieces of history that you did not write does not make you an historian.
Be happy with who you are. You have a very impressive ancestry, your lineage goes all the way back to colonial times. You have done your family a grave disservice by denying who you are. Shame on you. Your family deserves better.
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Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.
It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.
I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.
This belongs in the appropriate thread. Let's stay on topic, and also provide proof.
For what it's worth, Grondine did send me scans of his press passes issued to him by NASA. I have no reason to doubt they are real.
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if you go back to the introduction you will see that I am Dakota and Lakota,
7/8 from my tribe and 1/8 Oglala I come from six different band of the Dakota and Lakota
I was born on my reservation and live on my reservation
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E.P. Grondine... I don't know where to start. You asking earthw7 who she is... is insulting. Again, it's clear you don't pay attention to what goes on here. She is a respected person and shouldn't have to spend time getting you up to speed. *smh*
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Regarding this person's supposed or non-existent NDN ancestry, this thread is going nowhere.
I have no reason to defend either side, for the reasons that I am not related to the histories and tribes in question, and E.P. does not seem to be a new-age fraud, but rather a history writer who may be making dubious claims of his background. Its just getting silly, people post his ancestry records, and he keeps stating he is 1/8 without addressing the records.
Well, maybe somebody would take the claim more serious if he would list which ancestor was supposedly Native. Then somebody could check or debunk the claim of that specific ancestor too (who's probably already been listed in the records shown here). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a person of distant ancestry and learning about your ancestors' cultures. But someone with verified NDN ancestry in one of their lines can tell you exactly what family member came from which tribe and when.
Just sayin, repeating 'I am 1/8th' without any real info like a mantra isn't really much different from repeating 'my grampa was a cherokee princess and thats all there is to it!'. Not much of an argument there.
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Regarding this person's supposed or non-existent NDN ancestry, this thread is going nowhere.
I have no reason to defend either side, for the reasons that I am not related to the histories and tribes in question, and E.P. does not seem to be a new-age fraud, but rather a history writer who may be making dubious claims of his background. Its just getting silly, people post his ancestry records, and he keeps stating he is 1/8 without addressing the records.
Well, maybe somebody would take the claim more serious if he would list which ancestor was supposedly Native. Then somebody could check or debunk the claim of that specific ancestor too (who's probably already been listed in the records shown here). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a person of distant ancestry and learning about your ancestors' cultures. But someone with verified NDN ancestry in one of their lines can tell you exactly what family member came from which tribe and when.
Just sayin, repeating 'I am 1/8th' without any real info like a mantra isn't really much different from repeating 'my grampa was a cherokee princess and thats all there is to it!'. Not much of an argument there.
And there's your answer. He can't post which ancestor is Native, he can't be verified or it would have shown up already. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the accuracy of the research done on this man's claims after all the successful and accurate research by members of this forum in the past. In fact, in my view, this forum's participants (researchers) are fricken amazing with the speed and depth of their searches. Not to mention the verifiable proof they provide. If he was actually Native, he would be exonerated already and we'd be apologizing. And no, there is nothing wrong with people coming across different ancestry. I myself have been informed by family of a vastly complex family history that makes me question a lot about what I've been told about certain sides of my family. So, that isn't what is in play here. It's now simply a case of yet another wannabe (albeit an educated/experienced one) claiming that which cannot be proven. We've seen it before, we'll see it again. Respect to all here and to the mods and Al. I am in awe most days at the sheer volume of inaccuracies and lies exposed here every single day I log in. I'm not even a quarter of the way through reading about all all the frauds yet.
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Regarding this person's supposed or non-existent NDN ancestry, this thread is going nowhere.
I have no reason to defend either side, for the reasons that I am not related to the histories and tribes in question, and E.P. does not seem to be a new-age fraud, but rather a history writer who may be making dubious claims of his background. Its just getting silly, people post his ancestry records, and he keeps stating he is 1/8 without addressing the records.
Well, maybe somebody would take the claim more serious if he would list which ancestor was supposedly Native. Then somebody could check or debunk the claim of that specific ancestor too (who's probably already been listed in the records shown here). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a person of distant ancestry and learning about your ancestors' cultures. But someone with verified NDN ancestry in one of their lines can tell you exactly what family member came from which tribe and when.
Just sayin, repeating 'I am 1/8th' without any real info like a mantra isn't really much different from repeating 'my grampa was a cherokee princess and thats all there is to it!'. Not much of an argument there.
Heavy sigh, I do agree with you that this thread is going no where. But if you had read thru the entire thread and I know that is hard to do because of EP Grondine's flooding the thread with irrelevant gobbledygook you would have come to the conclusion that 1. EP Grondine is white, as he was the one to provide us with his mother's name and grand mother' s maiden name. It was his claim that his so called "Shawnee/Indian" blood/descent came from his mother. So in answer to your query yes some did provide a list to which ancestor was native. EP GRONDINE himself. 2. We can't find any news articles professional or scholastic that EP GRONDINE has written or published. Again EP GRONDlNE himself provided us with nothing but an office newsletter, some online blogging, him responding to the comment section of other bloggers and yahoo chat rooms. 3. As for his claim of being a historian ...We cannot find any academic records, college records or even a high school diploma. In order to be an historian one must have a academic or some sort of work history in that field which we cannot find nor has EP GRONDINE provided us with any proof.
I hope this answers your concerns with the EP GRONDINE thread as we are just as tired and exhausted as you.
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gotcha, and fully agreed.
I have been following the thread since it was posted, but it appears to have turned into EP mostly repeating that he's 1/8th when his info was debunked, but still repeating it. Repeating something doesn't make it true, unless we consider mantras to alter reality, lol.
While I mostly follow this forum to keep up on the spirituality and new age frauds, it does seem it wouldn't hurt for there to be more open inquiry into writers, academics, and the sort. Considering the academic frauds in the media lately, I'm not afraid to say I've met a couple teachers and professors I felt should have been investigated because of stereotypes or bad information they seemed to be promoting in the name of this or that culture. I think NAFPS, while having being formed for the new age frauds, may be the most centralized forum to be able to discuss these sorta things on the web. Even the new age frauds are interrelated with researchers and writers (ie. Castaneda and his legacy for a blatant/extreme example), so maybe such a section would prove rather useful. I think we can agree that a person's work as a historian does not need to rely on whether or one is a certain race, as much as it requires being honest and citing sources. But still most people will probably assume there is more credibility when someone talking about NDN history claims to be NDN. For that reason, one can understand why these claims need to be debunked just like the new agers' claims.
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Well EP Grondine, I keep laughing over your hysterical mistakes... I wish to point out to you the biggest mistake you have written...
You wrote: "Ben, the reason why the Loyal Shawnee received that name from the colonists was because they did not join with Tecumseh. For this they received "reservations" which were then taken from them and they were sent to Kansas, and from there to the Cherokee's lands."
This is so funny... first of all, there are direct descendants of Tecumseh in the Loyal Shawnee, secondly, we are no longer called the Loyal, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Loyal Shawnee got their name because THEY FOUGHT FOR THE UNION DURING THE CIVIL WAR! The colonists had NOTHING to do with the name Loyal Shawnee!
You claim your a historian? Oh that's like you claim you are 1/8th Shawnee too! LMAO it is all a fantasy in your mind!
You keep bringing my name up, I sure hope you do not have a "thang" for me, because I find you rather repulsive.
There is no way you have had your DNA checked and it came back as having Shawnee blood BECAUSE there is no Shawnee DNA data base. The Shawnee people have NOT shared our DNA for study.
Don't like Sam or I getting after Jack Blosser? Too bad for you, because Jack Blosser is a fake and a liar!
http://ancestorstealing.blogspot.com/2015/06/jack-blosser-genealogy.html
Don't like Sam's blog? Then stop going there to read it. You should be careful, or Sam might decide to dedicate a blog writing all about you! He even has a picture of you that was shared with me! Not that Sam is really interested in blogging about you, I must say, Diana has done a great job in her research!
Your family can be researched into the 1600's and 1500's that alone says you are not Indian...
Twigg has never been a Shawnee surname.. in fact, I do know of a Twigg Indian person, but they are Lakota... and her name was Fairy Twigg... oh wait again, Twigg was her husbands name and he was a white guy...
So you find this name "Twigg" and make up a story that the name is "Bent Twigg"... now thats some pretty funny stuff Ed!
This group you are so fond of, "Lower Mekoce Shawnee" which is a group of fakes, it is really strange that it does not seem like a one of you know anything about the real Mekoce... but what you have accomplished is to really piss of the true Mekoce in many ways... I certainly am not gong to educate you on what Mekoce is, that's not my place.
You like to harp on this issue that you have diabetes and having strokes... Strokes are common with people who have diabetes, however, it si NOT a sign that you are Indian... After all, you said you have a black ancestor too, maybe it came from those DNA genetics... and though I really do not care if you have a Black ancestor, I am curious as to why you are not out there telling people how Black you are.. why don't you go over to the Descendants of Slaves boards and tell them of how Black you are? Tell them what their history is? Tell them you are some kind of "historian" and "journalist" about the Black people and their history... lets hear about your family from Africa.. Oh let me guess who that ancestor was... t Kunta Kintay?
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gee my old friend Keely has not been on this site for along time,
Waving at Earthw7 Thanks! Had not been on in a long time... funny how these fakes work so hard to get attention then whine when it happens :)
Hope you are well!!
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Oh and BTW Ed, your story about your live in nurse friend being upset with things being said to you on the internet... cry to someone else... If issues on the internet are upsetting you so much, get off the internet! Problem solved! Because no matter how much you get upset with myself, Ben, Diane or the others who have told you that you are a fake upset you so much, that is your issue to deal with. As for me, my issue will always be the truth, standing up for my ancestors, stopping your kind of twisted history and lies.
You know the saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!
Trying to "win" in your lies by giving health issues is pretty lame...
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Hi Keely good to see you post and thanks for all the work you do for your people ;D
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Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.
It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.
I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.
This belongs in the appropriate thread. Let's stay on topic, and also provide proof.
For what it's worth, Grondine did send me scans of his press passes issued to him by NASA. I have no reason to doubt they are real.
The Eastern Band of Shawnee did indeed purchase land in Ohio, though it is not near the Zane Caverns. There is NO plan to set up a casino that I know of. The land they purchased is a well known piece of property that has great historical value to all the Shawnee tribes.
As for the ID issue, I have seen more than my share of faked ID's... and Ed's is of no interest to me.
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Hi Keely good to see you post and thanks for all the work you do for your people ;D
Thank you Earth, and to you as well :)
Been so long since I was here, I had a heck of a time remembering how to post!
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Regarding this person's supposed or non-existent NDN ancestry, this thread is going nowhere.
I have no reason to defend either side, for the reasons that I am not related to the histories and tribes in question, and E.P. does not seem to be a new-age fraud, but rather a history writer who may be making dubious claims of his background. Its just getting silly, people post his ancestry records, and he keeps stating he is 1/8 without addressing the records.
Well, maybe somebody would take the claim more serious if he would list which ancestor was supposedly Native. Then somebody could check or debunk the claim of that specific ancestor too (who's probably already been listed in the records shown here). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a person of distant ancestry and learning about your ancestors' cultures. But someone with verified NDN ancestry in one of their lines can tell you exactly what family member came from which tribe and when.
Just sayin, repeating 'I am 1/8th' without any real info like a mantra isn't really much different from repeating 'my grampa was a cherokee princess and thats all there is to it!'. Not much of an argument there.
Perhaps I should explain what is important about this issue that we are dealing with.
First, keep in mind, our 2nd Chief of the Shawnee, Ben Barnes, has been insulted by Ed Grondine. This is never acceptable.
For many years our tribe has been dealing with these kind of people. At one time, years ago, a fake in Florida had written a book that he claimed was the "traditional ways of the Shawnee" in this book, he wrote "the Shawnee believe that sex with children is good for them, the sooner they are started having sex, the better" Now, I shouldn't have to explain that this is simply not true. Some people who read it did believe it, and many of us Shawnee's were attacked because of this misinformation about our people.
These people take a little bit of truth in OUR history, and they twist it to suit their needs.
They have gotten into our ceremonies, hidden recorders, and recorded sacred songs... they go back to places like Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Virginia, and they try to make their own ceremony...
Now they do the "pow wow" thing... I watched a video where women are wearing Halloween costumes and dancing... When WE offered to come and teach the right way, we were told WE ARE NOT WELCOMED! At one time, some were threatened with arrest if they showed up at a PUBLIC event...
These people are worse than the "redskin" fans who dress up in mockery.
Now these people make up their own "tribes" and are making money speaking and trying to represent Indian people. They are claiming 501c status so they do not have to pay taxes, and they write for grants intended for Indian people... They are getting these grants! They are taking money that is intended to go to Indian tribes! That should irk every Indian out there!
This Jack Blosser that Grondine is saying he does not like being attacked... Well, Grondine does not know it, and has no way to know it because he does NOT know about Shawnee people, our customs, our families, our values, but little does Jack Blosser realize, with his ignorance, he has claimed a family... he has laid claim to a family of Shawnee people and he is NOT from that family... and is that family pissed? Oh yes they are!
These fakes are getting jobs by claiming to be something they are not. Jobs that are intended for real Indian people are being taken by non Indians, and to support their claims, they put on stupid costumes and claim it to be "traditional" then put a drum together who god only knows what the heck it is they are singing...
Will we stand up and be vocal and fight them? Yes we ARE! We are not going to continue to sit back and let these injustices happen to our ancestors. We are not going to let these people continue with their insults to our children and grandchildren.
We are just one of several tribes who has began to stand up against these people... Others are welcomed to join the fight, but no one will get in our way.
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Still talking as if he's Native. LOL I'm so glad he was unbanned. :D
He's talking gibberish! Does anyone know what he's talking about? Maybe he's having another stroke.
@EP Grondine, if you can't refute the records and write a coherent sentence maybe you should leave this forum. We've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're white and "you" yourself unwittingly provided us with proof that you are not a published author or are peer reviewed. Nor are you a historian, regurgitating irrelevant pieces of history that you did not write does not make you an historian.
Be happy with who you are. You have a very impressive ancestry, your lineage goes all the way back to colonial times. You have done your family a grave disservice by denying who you are. Shame on you. Your family deserves better.
Thank you Diana!
Sure wish there was a like button here :)
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Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.
It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.
I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.
This belongs in the appropriate thread. Let's stay on topic, and also provide proof.
For what it's worth, Grondine did send me scans of his press passes issued to him by NASA. I have no reason to doubt they are real.
PS Jerry Pope died back in May... the future we hope that his group now falls apart... rumor has it that the lands are in hawk up to its neck, and could be sold or auctioned off...
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Grondine sent me his genealogy research and asked it be posted.
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...
'"There are descendants of "Fleetfoot" John and Ruth (Farmer) Twigg who, to
this day believe they are Indian. There are just as many believe Ruth was the daughter
of John or Elias Farmer of Bedford Co. PA. Neither has been proven or disproven.'
So, still no proof, just family stories and personal belief, mixed in with all sorts of racist stereotypes about Natives (admitted, historical records by white people are full of those; as far as we know Grondine didn't write the bits with sexual/racial slurs, but without seeing the actual documents we don't know that), and the same likelihood as before that the dark-eyed, dark-haired people were runaway slaves - Africans.
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Just to let everyone know, I already provided the links to those stories and the ancestry on page 3. Here are the links again. Dr. Al, EP Grondine did not look up those stories or ancestry, they were already posted on the web and by me. Also I read the story of the blue eyed and black eyed family members back when i first posted the links. It's on the links I provided. Also, Mr. Grondine conveniently left out the part where his family has a good chuckle over the story as just a family story and no one has been able to prove it.
Everyone needs to stop playing into this poor old white man's delusions. It's mean.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mdallegh/Twiggtown.html
www.twiggtown.org
www.twiggtown.net
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Just to let everyone know, I already provided the links to those stories and the ancestry on page 3. Here are the links again. Dr. Al, EP Grondine did not look up those stories or ancestry, they were already posted on the web and by me. Also I read the story of the blue eyed and black eyed family members back when i first posted the links. It's on the links I provided. Also, Mr. Grondine conveniently left out the part where his family has a good chuckle over the story as just a family story and no one has been able to prove it.
Everyone needs to stop playing into this poor old white man's delusions. It's mean.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mdallegh/Twiggtown.html
www.twiggtown.org
www.twiggtown.net
True enough. It's also true that Grondine is not an exploiter of the type we go after. No cult, no exploitation for money or ceremony selling. There's a reason he's remained under Research.
We need to take care we don't become like the Indianz.com forum, going after people who just kidded themselves. We've made a distinction before between those who are deluded, and those who are conscious exploiters. That hasn't been done with this thread. Certainly the "screaming" all caps title should never have been allowed, and I changed that.
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I'd also like to mention that keely's attack on Jack Blosser and the Fort Ancient Celebration is far beyond the pales.
While the CNO may have trouble with people of Native ancestry mixed with African American ancestry,
they will always be welcomed at the Celebration,
just as they always have been.
I am coming to the party late. I dont get to monitor EPG and his inaccuracies much. As for Fort Ancient, that pan-indian, non-native interpretation of what these folks thinks Natives are like, does no service to the builders of the Ohio mounds.
This appropriation and display of pan-indian ideas by non-natives and hosted by non-natives is the same as an 1890s minstrel show.
And the group to which Jack Blosser belongs, the Lower Eastern Mekoce of Ohio and WV is a 501c3 and not a tribe. They made this thing up latching onto an old division name. Which personally pisses me off, as I am a Mekoce descendant. These folks are complete and utter bullshit with no historical or documented ties to the Shawnee. In fact, the opposite is true. I have yet to find a single leader from one of these fake Shawnee Tribes that does not trace back to a European immigrant.
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Well, now that everyone is here.
I as much as I am historian, was a journalist, and am of 1/8 shawnee descent.
And that I have never claimed to be a spiritual guide
And that the people who usually shout at me are spiritual thieves who concoct
fake histories, but now I find you shoutring at me in an effort to thrown doubt on the traditional histories about the Andaste and Shawnee...
The Colonists policy of conquest has been to diviide and conquer.
Thus people within the Ohio Historical Society has been leading other native
peoples into claiming Shawnee remains in Ohio.
If you look back here, you can find my discussion with Oestriecher about his version of both Shawnee and Lenape histories- in particular his claim that the Lenape medewak did not exist, and his version of Shawnee history.
Ostreicher's work has been funded by Lenape cassino interests for years.
So when the manger of the Lenape casino in Oklahoma shows up and tells me that the Loyal recieved that name because they were loyal to the union in the Civil War. And when Brad Lepper seeks Lenape support for the Ohio Historical Society, and promotes the Lenape memory of a "white road", at the same timeworking his hardest to concoct fake native history on the dime of the people of Ohio...
Let us start by examining the Sioux claims. They are based on the Siouxian tribes who lived back east at the time of European contact. for the southern Siouxian tribes, Catawba and Saponi, their arrival was remembered by the Cherokee.
For the Monocan, the difference between Lenape and Shawnee remains are quite well known to the archaeologists of western Maryland, who know them as Monongahela Late Woodlands and Keyser Late Woodlands respectively.
The Sioux (mengwe in Lenape, any other people later used to describe the mingo, mostly members of other nations who were fleeing the colonists such as Chief Logan) who accompanied them are shown by the catlinite flat disk pipes. The documentation of these in easwtern Ohio may be found in Bob Converse's book "The Archaeology of Ohio" a book which Mr. Lepper plagiarized from (either intentionally or inadvertently) and then suppressed.
The Brad Lepper you talk about here is bullshit. I know Brad Lepper. He's not pandering to fake Lenape.
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As to how the Loyal Band received their name, it was because they did not support Tecumseh in his effort.
They were rewarded with "reservatons" in Ohio, which were later taken from them under Jackson and they were sent to Kansas
The land in Kansas was taken from them following Lincoln's Homesteading act, and they were given Cherokee lands in Oklahoma.
I suspect that those Cherokee were being punished for supporting the Conderacy during the Cicil War, but that is something that I have not looked at in depth.
More errors: The Loyal name came after removal to Kansas. There is no historical documentation to suggest that name came into being in Ohio. It was a result of our loyalty to the Union during the civil war. Not that we were good little patriots, but because that is who conscripted us. At this point in our history we were the "Kansas Shawnees" and only became the Loyal after the civil war, and during our removal to Oklahoma.
I do however think you are right about the punishment to the Cherokees for their role in the civil war, but that has not been firmly established in my opinion.