NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: tepol on April 20, 2008, 05:20:10 am
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Last year I had the pleasure of talking to Ross Heaven whom styles himself as being an advisor on " love " and " fear ".
Here are some of the love/ly words that this master of love likes to use when challanged about his authencticity.
Note Mr Heaven likes to promote books to overcome fear ,such as one below, while clearly using it as an excuse to overcome his own ultimate fear i.e. money.
Below you can see some links to his many accomplishments , and after that below the line , his response to my original email.
Amora: The London Academy of Sex and Relationships
I am working with Amora as spiritual advisor on love, relationships, and ‘the shamanic Way of Love’. The Academy opened on April 18 this year and tickets are now available at www.amoralondon.com or via the Ticket line on 0871 230 9876. For workshops on the spirituality of love, see http://www.thefourgates.com/love.html and
http://www.thefourgates.com/simplelove.html
Lightworks. The Spiritual Practices of the Ninja. An excerpt from my book of the same name, on techniques for overcoming fear. Also online at http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAsp.../feature1.html
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An interesting point of view. i wonder exactly what you believe to be free -
two weeks accommodation and food in the jungle, perhaps? Or attendance on a
workshop by which i earn my living and feed my children?
An interesting view, indeed! But not so interesting that i give much of a
fuck what you think, so don't trouble yourself to write back.
You're off the mailing list as of now, though you're welcome to join it
again, of course, any time you grow up and get your head straight.
'Exploiting knowledge'?
The only knowledge i am exploiting is my own. Do you mean i have no right,
then, to teach what i have spent 20 years learning myself? Maybe your school
teachers (if you had any) have no rights to earn a living by their
profession either, even though they may have benefited you in some small way
through your education?
Or perhaps you mean that in your job you do not 'exploit' your education and
training and, furthermore, offer your employers your services for free? You
will earn a little of my respect for your views if you tell me you are not
paid in your job but do it only for love, or that, if you do not work, you
are not claiming benefits or taking hand-outs from your mother, father, or
others, but living off air and rainwater. But i doubt you can do that.
Or do you mean that i am exploiting the knowledge of others by, perhaps,
running trips to the Amazon and thereby 'raping and pillaging the innocent
jungle savages'? - because, of course, they do not need the money to feed
their children or themselves in your world of fantasy shamans. i suggest for
your education that you try to meet a shaman one day rather than preaching
to me about what they do and don't do when i have spent 20 years working
with them and therefore have some idea.
Or do you mean that charging people who travel to the Amazon for their food,
accommodation, and to pay the shamans for their services is wrong? Again,
please direct me to a website - Thomsons Travel, perhaps - which offers
holidays for free for all.
i think what you actually mean is that ( ) is too valuable to the
universe for him to have to pay his way and that the cosmos - and all of us
here on Earth as well - should make an exception for you and provide you
with our love and service completely free of charge - perhaps as your mother
does now, while bearing the cost herself.
Actually, i don't give a fuck what you think because it's clearly a crock
and un-thought-through.
You are, i'm afraid, a moron - no less so since i asked you not to write
back and you, having done so have now re-added your name to my mailing list
through automatic capture.
So, having asked for your name to be removed (which i took the time to do as
a courtesy, despite your rudeness and ignorance) you've just added yourself
back on. And i'm fucked if i'm wasting more of my time taking you off it
again, so expect lots of further emails, you asshole.
Now fuck off. You're dismissed and henceforth on 'ignore'. Go bother your
mommy for pocket money.
Blessings, ross
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Hello Tepol and welcome to the forum. Perhaps you overlooked the sticky thread asking you to introduce yourself (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?board=5.0). What did you say to Heaven that provoked such an outpouring of bile?
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With respect i agree with Barnaby,tell us Tepol,do you still have this "original e mail" you sent Ross Heaven
which warranted such an eliquent (not) outburst and can we see it please so we all get a rounded view of
your problem with this individual?.
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I too.... have to agree with zoi ,need to see the thread ,thank you . shre what was said k
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Greetings!
I know I may be asking for trouble by posting here (and I'm very grateful to be listed only in the Research Needed rather than Total Frauds category!) but I thought I might just add my comments here and hopefully shed light on a few things of relevance to this thread.
Probably the first thing to say is that Tepol (if that's what he's now calling himself) has been posting the same alleged email from me ad nauseum on various sites for a few years now and has even decided to create a blog site for himself at http://no2.vox.com/library/post/ross-heaven---the-fake-shaman.html where, as you'll see, he pretends to be me and posts and answers emails in my name, presumably from a fake email account he has also created in my name. His site also features a doctored photograph of me which has probably been stolen from my legitimate website (see http://www.thefourgates.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=37 for a comparison).
His blog however offers no evidence for any of his claims or any true critique of my work and is more than juvenile. By pretending to be me in the way that he is, in fact, I wonder if it does not demonstrates either obsession or mental illness.
We at The Four Gates Foundation have answered 'Tepol' at many other forums many times, first when he was writing the same material using the name (....) then the name kinkabak. Our answer is very simple: we have no record of any communication to us at all - ever - from this individual and no record of us ever having replied to him. I see that some people here have also asked Tepol for evidence of his claims to have contacted us and received a reply from me and, as is true of the other forums where he has posted as well, he has provided no evidence at all but, when challenged, has become very quiet or (at other forums) repeated the same allegations without evidence and continued on in his unsubstantiated rants.
My conclusion, therefore, is that we are dealing with either a troublemaker or a nut. My partner at The Four Gates, who is probably a much gentler soul than me, has even offered Tepol a free healing session (more than once) to help him through whatever issues he is facing. He has responded, however, that he regards this offer as either blackmail or in some way threatening and has decided instead that his healing needs would be better served by creating fake blog sites and writing emails in my name.
So may I just state a few facts here:
1. I do not "style myself" as being a "love guru" or "advisor on love and fear". I wrote a book on Rumi and Sufi approaches to love which, in Sufi terms, is rather about spiritual connection than sexual or romantic love.
2. I do not work for Amora as an advisor on anything. I did help them out a few years ago when the academy (actually a museum and tourist attraction in London) was setting up and asked me for some input on spiritual practices since I had written the aforementioned book.
3. I do not call myself a "shaman". I have however worked with many and still do. I even teach shamanic practices for a Western audience and lead trip to Peru to work with authentic shamans, but such practices do not make anyone a "shaman" themselves, as intelligent readers here will know.
4. More fundamentally, irrespective of whatever Tepol has written in my name, I can only say again that The Four Gates has no record of any communication from him and so it is most unlikely that I or anyone else would have written such an email to him in response.
Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.
It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.
Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be.
On our trips the money we charge goes to (a) the shamans and (b) the centres we work at which are, in all cases, not-for-profit centres for healing and for preserving rainforest plant medicines and practices. I also pay myself a little money (but far less than the centres receive) to reflect (a) the work involved (usually beginning a year in advance of the trip) to promote the event, pay for its advertising, and to deal with the often complex administration and enquiries I get from participants, and (b) for the workshops and other events I run and/or organise while there, as well as being available to participants and others 24/7 for the two weeks of the programme. I make no apologies for the latter btw since without me the event would not exist at all, participants would not get the healing they need and the shamans and centres which depend on the money I bring them to preserve indigenous wisdom would not get the support or the income they need to continue.
I can well understand, therefore, why anyone would be infuriated by ignorance on such a grand scale as Tepol's and what appears to be a demand from him or a belief in his own right to get all of this for nothing, including all of the shamans' time and two weeks of healing and ceremonies.
While I emphasise once more that we have no knowledge of any communication to us from Tepol (by whatever name) and certainly no record of writing the email reply that appears at his fake 'Ross Heaven' blog site from his fake 'Ross Heaven' email address, I might in fact retain his apparently equally fake message because it does, more or less, express my views on the matter and is therefore a cut-and-paste response I might send to anyone who genuinely contacts me expecting something for nothing and who, through this, would cheat genuine shamans and healers out of income for their own gain.
I try to work with heart and integrity (although I am, of course, no saint but, like the rest of us, human) and I would therefore be genuinely interested in your thoughts on the issues this thread raises and for any sensible and useful suggestions as to how I might improve.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
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PS. I might add that if you check the statistcs relating to 'Tepol' you will see that he registered on April 20 2008 at 12.16.20am and made his first and only post, creating a new thread (this one) to do so, at 12.20.09am. He has spent a total of 3 minutes online as part of this forum, made 1 post and started 1 topic. This one.
I'm not entirely sure what this proves but I'm sure it proves something! Maybe about obsession.
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....I'm very grateful to be listed only in the Research Needed rather than Total Frauds category....
3. I do not call myself a "shaman". I have however worked with many and still do. I even teach shamanic practices for a Western audience and lead trip to Peru to work with authentic shamans, but such practices do not make anyone a "shaman" themselves, as intelligent readers here will know....
Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be.
On our trips the money we charge goes to (a) the shamans and (b) the centres we work at which are, in all cases, not-for-profit centres for healing and for preserving rainforest plant medicines and practices. I also pay myself a little money (but far less than the centres receive) to reflect (a) the work involved (usually beginning a year in advance of the trip) to promote the event, pay for its advertising, and to deal with the often complex administration and enquiries I get from participants, and (b) for the workshops and other events I run and/or organise while there, as well as being available to participants and others 24/7 for the two weeks of the programme. I make no apologies for the latter btw since without me the event would not exist at all, participants would not get the healing they need and the shamans and centres which depend on the money I bring them to preserve indigenous wisdom would not get the support or the income they need to continue....
I try to work with heart and integrity (although I am, of course, no saint but, like the rest of us, human) and I would therefore be genuinely interested in your thoughts on the issues this thread raises and for any sensible and useful suggestions as to how I might improve.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
Hello,
We emailed each other a long time ago on the subject of "Mama Racine" and the other names she goes by.
As you can see, there's no danger anyone would quickly be put in the Fraud category unless there's a long record of proof, eg types such as Lynn Andrews and Harley Reagan. As a general practice every person being researched goes to Research Needed first.
Yes, we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind, but...
There is a thread mentioning you briefly I would like your response to.
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=45.15
Also, the trips you organize and the centers you run. There are quite a few outfits doing "spiritual tourism" in Latin America and I have yet to see one I would call ethical. (Obviously I don't claim to have seen them all.) If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about exactly what you offer and the people you work with. What kind of healing is offered, and how are potential clients screened?
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Thanks for your message. This is the kind of input I'd like as (cliche I know) but I am keen to improve the trips I run to Peru. I'm interested in your opinion.
I do not personally call these 'spiritual tourism' and try to steer clear of such enterprises. The events are offered as healing opportunities and possibilities for self-exploration and discovery. Clients are met in Iquitos and we travel together to a jungle centre where we remain for 14 days, working purely with jungle medicine. There are no staged events (such as trips to watch 'the Bora' dancing or 'visiting places of power' or 'exploring portals and vortices' etc) which you find with spiritual tours. We simply work with the shamans who prepare the medicines and run the ceremonies as they have always done. People may take part in as many of as few ceremonies as they wish but seven ayahuasca ceremonies are on offer. They also have one-to-one consultations with the shamans each day, traditional floral baths, traditional jungle-style saunas, and a traditional plant diet is also available using herbs and plants which have healing effects.
Along with this I offer workshops and seminars each day to put into context the healings of the shamans and the experiences people may have. Subjects might include icraos, for example (the songs of the shaman during ceremonies) and the whole idea of 'spirit songs' which are common to many cultures not just those of the Amazon. I don't claim to be a shaman and seminars are not provided so I can be 'shamanic'! They are offered for elucidation.
I work with a few different Amazonian centres, all of them with not-for-profit status and which exist as areas of biodiversity to collect, plant, preserve and maintain rainforest plants and protect their futures. I also work with a variety of shamans, mostly from the Shipibo. I tend to eschew the 'superstar shamans' and work with simple men and women who have years of experience with jungle medicine. Having said that, I ran UK workshops last year with Guilermo Aravelo who is regarded as a bit of a 'supesrtar' and there was nothing wrong with his medicine or attitude to healing. I just prefer to give 'the little guy' a chance when I can so that all the rewards don't go to a few individuals based on their fame.
It is my policy that the events I run will always be the cheapest available for retreats of this kind because I do not want price to be a limiting factor for people who need the healing that an event like this might provide (I hasten to add, however, that this event is not presented to anyone as a 'miracle cure' or a 'guaranteed healing'. It is offered as a healing experience since (a) ayahuasca is regarded by the shamans as a jungle healer and (b) I want to attract participants who will approach the event with a serious intent, not just to 'gon on a trip' or 'take ayahuasca). For 14 days therefore (including transfers to the centre, accommodation, food, ceremonies, consultations and all other events mentioned above) the cost of this programme is £1250. Even that may sound a lot on paper but it's actually cheaper than an annual holiday for many people and, according to my research, it's almost £1000 cheaper than the people I've found who are offerring remotely similar programmes of a 'spiritual tourism' nature. Plus people are entitled to a £100 discount if two or more travel together and a 5% reduction on the combined cost of this trip and my journey to the Andes to work with the shamans there if they book both events together. It is possible, therefore, for an individual bringing a small group to get their trip for just a few hundred pounds, as is the case this year. Next year I am also hoping to introduce a bursary scheme for people who need healing but cannot afford the trip at any price.
The centres I work with are paid well and at the price they, not I, set. From my calculations about 80% of income will go to them and to the shamans. The rest is used for things like tips and gratuities to shamans and centre staff, advertising the programme, getting there myself and so on. While I would love to make a profit (since I need to live too!) most years I actually make very little but that's ok because making money is not the primary aim of this trip.
As for screening people, that's a difficult one given that people are coming to the Amazon to take part in healing events so I don't want to exclude them if I can help it because, for example, their approach might seem to suggest that they have a problem, since the event might actually help with it. On the other hand I don't want to take people along who are likely to be disruptive either so all participants make a medical declaration and state (in confidence) any drugs, treatments and conditions they may be taking or have and I make a decision from there, consulting with the shamans and the centres I work at if need be. If necessary they are also invited for interview or discussion prior to making or accepting their booking. Once the trip is over they are also sent a 'quality check' questionairre and invited to give their feedback.
Here are some of their comments from previous years:
I struggle to find words to describe the experience. It was beyond words: one of the most intense and exhilarating experiences I have had in my adult life. It allowed me to really connect at a deeper level whilst opening new doors, perceptions, realities, and opportunities I didn’t consider possible. Highly recommended! Would I do it again? Yes, next year! I’m already planning to return. Alexia, UK
The Magical Earth experience was fun, interesting, relaxing, healthy, and most of all an opportunity for spiritual and emotional healing. I was especially impressed by the group leader’s gentle and supportive yet unobtrusive style. It will always be remembered as a highlight of my life. Kathryn, Australia
People ask “How was the trip” - and what do you answer? No words can do it justice. There are too many experiences to mention and none would shed light on my true feelings. The stillness I feel now and the lack of rush is incredible. What we experienced was something so special - and life just keeps getting better. Linzi, UK
A blissful and inspiring couple of weeks where everything seemed touched with magic! It was perfect. Kirsty, UK
How rare to have our expectations exceeded in so many ways! The two weeks were beyond my expectations and I’m recommending it to many people. It was truly life-changing. Mike, UK
Thank you for such wonderful, colourful, and mind and heart-opening experiences. I will treasure the memories and insights forever. Katherine, New Zealand
Thank you from every depth of my heart for the loving, profound, and lasting healing I received from you and the shamans in Peru. You gave me back my life. Stafford, UK
A phenomenal experience, wisely and brilliantly organized with humility, compassion and connection to everything and everyone - not to mention many good laughs along the way! But definitely NOT an idle, New Age walk in the clouds. Very real, very practical, very empowering - something you can take home with you. There’s nothing I would recommend more than this experience for any spiritual seeker. Kyle, USA
I hope that answers your questions? I am very open to any constructive criticism or suggestions for improvements.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
PS I will look at your other link now.
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OK, I looked at your other link. Not sure whether you want my comments here or in that thread but I'll post them here and no doubt you'll move them if I'm wrong.
I had an interest in vodou since my degree (psychology, anthropology, etc) where we studied it and I was struck by the lack of real information on it and also the fear (or prejudice) surrounding what I took to be a more-or-less 'standard' shamanic practice. Some years later I was invited (for a price of course, which I was happy to pay) to initiate (kanzo) with Racine. I decided to do so out of interest not because of any burning desire to become a priest.
I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable. But then again all traditions (perhaps especially vodou which is very adaptable) do evolve and those within them will also develop their own style of practice, so I was disinclined to make judgements at that time.
That was in 2000 and Racine also seemed quite well-behaved compared, for example, with some of the stories I'd heard.
My book Vodou Shaman came out in 2003 and to coincide with it I organised a trip to Haiti for a group of Westerners to experience vodou ceremonies and learn more about its practices. This was not an initiation journey.
During it, however, Racine was very badly behaved and seemed to exhibit qualities of mental illness, just as I'd heard. She began - literally - screaming at participants on day one, for example, took to sitting in a throne surrounded by 'bodyguards' (who also, when she was not present, described her to me and others as "mad", but who she kept dependent on her for the money she gave them) and I know of at least two times when she stole money from me and from one of her 'employees' (a herbalist I had agreed a fee with in US dollars but who she paid in Haitian dollars - about 1/7th of the value). She also attempted to have some of the people present whipped (me included - I'm not joking!) and was constantly smoking skunk which did nothing to stabilise her mood.
I got everyone safely out and, on return to the UK, noticed that she was using her association with me to promote herself on various web platforms ("my initiate son, the famous author", etc - I already had other books out then too). I had already told her that I would never work with her again and would no longer be part of her Society (which I had never signed up for in the first place, incidentally) so I made a simple announcement at these forums to disassociate myself from her and that was when the s**t hit the fan and she began to claim that she'd stripped me of my rank in vodou.
Actually, that was fine by me since I didn't kanzo in the first place to become a priest; I did it to experience vodou and learn more about he tradition. In fact, however, the rank of priest is not given by the initiator in vodou, it is given by the spirits, so the fatal flaw in Racine's cunning plan is that once a title is given it can't be taken away. And so I remain a priest of vodou while, frankly, I have no particular interest in being one and certainly don't 'practice' vodou or have any form of congregation, etc. I don't even teach vodou on workshops apart from one or two herbal techniques which have nothing to do with the priesthood but based on my studies with the hrbalist I mentioned earlier.
Racine's reason for allegedly stripping my rank has usually been that I "revealed the secrets of vodou" in my book. However, she has not been able to name a single secret revealed and when the book has been read by any other individuals who do not have her axe to grind (including members of the vodou clergy) they can't find a single one. In fact I think I say in it that, expressly, you won't find any vodou secrets here. My intention in writing it was to get away from the prejudice I'd encountered in my university studies and make vodou accessible and understandable as a shamanic practice to a Western audience. That's all.
Racine now looks to have fallen on hard times, perhaps (probably) because of her treatment of others. A few years ago her room in Haiti was burned to the ground in an arson attack, then two of her American initiates were jailed in Haiti because she had sold them human remains dug up from a local burial ground, and she had to run back to America in the dead of night to avoid being arrested herself. I'm told she now works as a janitor while continuing to claim to be the 'queen of vodou' and get into all sorts of fights and aggressive attacks on other on various web forums.
Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti. That is, if you turn up at another peristyle in Haiti and use the passwords and salutes you have been given, you will be allowed in. Ask the priest what he thinks of Racine when you get in, however, and he will tell you that she is much-despised in the country and that no-one respects her. So it's a bit confused. In my opinion she's selling a mish-mash (with the emphasis on selling) and certainly guilty of cultural theft. She's also delusional and dangerous.
As for Peter Aziz, he's well known in the UK for being as crazy as she is. He was on TV a couple of years back selling 'cancer cures'. He also runs ayahuasca workshops and I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have needed healing afterwards from the damage he's done to them. I heard a rumour (which maybe needs further investigation) about a year ago that he was being questioned by the police for manslaughter following one ayahuasca ceremony. I have no real information on this though and, frankly, I'm uninterested. The greater distance I can put between Racine and her clan and myself the happier I'll be!
Oh, and on the book title btw can I just say that you shouldn't blame a book for its cover. I've heard some criticism (from Racine, for example) that calling my book Vodou Shaman implies arrogance on my part; as if I'm presenting myself as a - or even The - vodou shaman. In fact, the book was never meant to be called that. The title was changed by the publishers, something that happens quite commonly in publishing and which authors have little or no control over. Inner Traditions (my publisher here) are particularly prone to this and have changed the title of 3 out of the 4 books I've published with them after the manuscript was delivered. I'm not sure I like the new title any more than some of my critics but it's better and more accurate than some of the things they've done to the others!
Any more questions on this, let me know.
Ross Heaven
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PS (sorry for the constant PSes!) but I've just read the Racine/Aziz thread more fully and came across a post by greanleaf about ayahuasca etc. Maybe you'd like my comments on that too?
I did write an article for a UK pagan magazine some years back. I can't remember the magazine's name or much about the article now but it had something to do with plant spirit shamanism, British 'dreaming herbs' or something like that, and it did mention ayahuasca. The main thrust of it, as I recall, is that while ayahuasca has specific dreaming attributes there have been plants in our own 'shamanic' past which have also been used for dreaming or purposes of spiritual connection and 'spirit flight'; among them vervain and valerian, as greenleaf mentions. That, however (and rather obviously I would have thought) is not meant ot imply that they produce the same effects as ayahuasca.
I didn't see the magazine when it came out so can't say how what I wrote was edited or presented, so have no comment to make on whether I was not clear enough in my article or whether sub-editing might have changed the meaning of the information I was presenting and made it less clear, leading to any confusion.
I did get an email from someone who had read the article who wanted to know how these plants were like ayahuasca. Perhaps it was greenleaf. As he or she says "he seemed to forget he had written that" True - if I ever did write that; see my comments above. I write several articles and have written 10 or more books and I don't recall every sentence or paragraph. Greenleaf aslo says that I replied that "he meant they would be "entheogenic"". True. The word 'entheogen' was coined in the 70s by ethnobotanists including Schultzes and Wasson to differentiate plants like this from those that produce "hallucinations". ‘In a strict sense,’ they wrote, ‘only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens.’
The inclusion of the word ‘drugs’ in their definition is unfortunate, because it has connotations of its own, of course: “to be drugged” and therefore out of control or powerless, etc. Perhaps ‘substances’ would have been a better choice. But still, the description as a whole is useful. The literal meaning of the word entheogen is "that which causes God to be within an individual", or which "creates the divine within us". Perhaps “that which stimulates or reveals the divine, or which causes us to remember our own divinity” would, again, have been better still.
It seems to me most likely therefore that 'dreaming plants' like valerian, taken with proper ritual and intent would certainly qualify as entheogenic.
Greenleaf remarks that "he [that is, I] tried to get out of it!" No. I said and say again here that plants may have entheogenic and dreaming qualities and not have, by definition, to create the same exact effects as ayahuasca or other more visionary plants. I apologise if I was not as clear in my reply as greenleaf might have liked but, again, I would have thought the distinction is obvious. I also receive quite a few emails each day from various people, some with questions, and if I wrote elaborate responses to each I'd never get anything else done.
Greenleaf also remarks "I mean would you trust this bloke to take mind altering brews in the jungle with if he doesn't even have expert knowledge of UK/European plants?" Well, its rather a non-sequiter since I suppose a person could be expert on jungle medicines and not have expert knowledge of European plants - like, for example, the shamans of Peru with whom I work. However, I don't believe I was claiming to be an "expert" on anything; I was simply writing an article on some of the uses of plant medicines in dreaming practices. Ayahuasca would be one; vervain might be another, but all plants have different effects and I'd cauthon anyone against drinking vervain tea and expecting an ayahuasca vision to result! But, once again, I'd have thought that was obvious.
As for whether anyone should trust "this bloke" to take mind altering brews in the jungle with, I can only say that people do and have received beneficial results from doing so, as some of the participant comments in my earlier post show. So it's up to you. Trust me or not; your life and your choices are yours.
Ross Heaven
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Thanks for your message. This is the kind of input I'd like as (cliche I know) but I am keen to improve the trips I run to Peru. I'm interested in your opinion.
1. I do not personally call these 'spiritual tourism' and try to steer clear of such enterprises. The events are offered as healing opportunities and possibilities for self-exploration and discovery. Clients are met in Iquitos and we travel together to a jungle centre where we remain for 14 days, working purely with jungle medicine. There are no staged events (such as trips to watch 'the Bora' dancing or 'visiting places of power' or 'exploring portals and vortices' etc) which you find with spiritual tours. We simply work with the shamans who prepare the medicines and run the ceremonies as they have always done. People may take part in as many of as few ceremonies as they wish but seven ayahuasca ceremonies are on offer. They also have one-to-one consultations with the shamans each day, traditional floral baths, traditional jungle-style saunas, and a traditional plant diet is also available using herbs and plants which have healing effects.
2. Along with this I offer workshops and seminars each day to put into context the healings of the shamans and the experiences people may have. Subjects might include icraos, for example (the songs of the shaman during ceremonies) and the whole idea of 'spirit songs' which are common to many cultures not just those of the Amazon. I don't claim to be a shaman and seminars are not provided so I can be 'shamanic'! They are offered for elucidation....
3. As for screening people, that's a difficult one given that people are coming to the Amazon to take part in healing events so I don't want to exclude them if I can help it because, for example, their approach might seem to suggest that they have a problem, since the event might actually help with it. On the other hand I don't want to take people along who are likely to be disruptive either so all participants make a medical declaration and state (in confidence) any drugs, treatments and conditions they may be taking or have and I make a decision from there, consulting with the shamans and the centres I work at if need be. If necessary they are also invited for interview or discussion prior to making or accepting their booking.
4. Once the trip is over they are also sent a 'quality check' questionairre and invited to give their feedback.
Here are some of their comments from previous years....
I hope that answers your questions? I am very open to any constructive criticism or suggestions for improvements.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
I added numbers to make it clearer what I'm responding to.
1. I called these class of tours that. Most of the operators tend to choose far more pompous names, suggesting that one can and will become a shaman after taking part, though I don't suggest you are doing that.
"Healing opportunities"? What are you claiming can be healed exactly?
2. That disclaimer is important, but I hope you realize every would-be "white shaman" who comes to you will turn around and claim to have become a healer after taking part.
Have you thought about a strong disclaimer discouraging people from doing just that?
3. This seems vague to me, and very unlikely to catch the type of people I just described, along with those who just want a "cool trip". And are the NDN healers themselves screening participants with a translator present?
4. That seems more designed to insure the business keeps going than anything else, and the comments you posted does suggest many people did just go to have that "cool trip" and that was all they cared about.
If a traditional healer chooses to heal someone outside the community, that is something I support strongly, such as when I've seen white veterans with PTSD get helped by sweatlodges done with their Native vet buddies. But so many of the comments seem to suggest they just went there for the experience, and that doesn't sit well with me.
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1. I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable....
Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti. That is, if you turn up at another peristyle in Haiti and use the passwords and salutes you have been given, you will be allowed in. Ask the priest what he thinks of Racine when you get in, however, and he will tell you that she is much-despised in the country and that no-one respects her. So it's a bit confused. In my opinion she's selling a mish-mash (with the emphasis on selling) and certainly guilty of cultural theft. She's also delusional and dangerous.
2. As for Peter Aziz, he's well known in the UK for being as crazy as she is. He was on TV a couple of years back selling 'cancer cures'. He also runs ayahuasca workshops and I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have needed healing afterwards from the damage he's done to them. I heard a rumour (which maybe needs further investigation) about a year ago that he was being questioned by the police for manslaughter following one ayahuasca ceremony. I have no real information on this though and, frankly, I'm uninterested. The greater distance I can put between Racine and her clan and myself the happier I'll be!
3. The title was changed by the publishers, something that happens quite commonly in publishing and which authors have little or no control over. Inner Traditions (my publisher here) are particularly prone to this and have changed the title of 3 out of the 4 books I've published with them after the manuscript was delivered. I'm not sure I like the new title any more than some of my critics but it's better and more accurate than some of the things they've done to the others!
Ross Heaven
NUmbers added again.
1. That fits with what I recall finding about her. That's posted elsewhere on the forum, perhaps also in the yahoo group and on Bryant Holman's curandero yahoo group.
2. What we have on Aziz I think is also spread over the same three forums.
3. Really? Have you thought about simply switching publishers? I admit my published works are all on academic presses, who are generally quite good and helpful and respectful of the author's intent in their work. Writing for profit something quite alien to me, so it's hard for me to imagine sticking with a publisher who would keep doing that.
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The Amazon thread
Numbers in return:
1. I confess I have never heard of any spiritual tour which claims to make one a shaman. Perhaps you could point me to one so I can read it? The shamans we work with have, in most cases, worked as healers for 20, 30 - 50 years and followed (and still follow) plant diets sometimes lasting years in themselves, and even they say that they are still learning. I'd be fascinated to know how attending any 'spiritual tour' for a few weeks could make anyone a shaman and I'm sure I'd enjoy reading about it if you can show me a website where people are making that claim. We're certainly not and 'being a shaman' has nothing to do with what we offer.
2. Again, I can only say that is not my experience. I can say with absolute honesty, in fact, that not a single person who has joined me to work with Amazon or Andean shamans has returned home believing they are shamans or healers themselves. Quite the contrary. From our work together they are quite clear on what 'being a shaman' involves and have great respect for those they have met. I have had experience with a few people who thought they were already great healers and perhaps 'shamans' before they even went to Peru, however, but the experience itself and the genuine shamans they meet put them straight on that! One example that comes to mind was a woman two (or three?) years ago who believed herself to be an initated fire-keeper and was full of Western nonsense. She returned to our shamans after our trip ended and followed a plant diet for a further three months - and she is a lot humbler and more respectful now! I think it just took her a little more time than the others to get beyond her ego and see the efforts and skills required to be a true shaman and I can forgive her for that. She is the only case I can think of where ego got the better of someone, but even that sorted itself out. Other than her the people I have worked with have been delightful. But, in any case, there is nothing about our event which would - or claims to - make someone 'a shaman'.
3. I'm not screening people on the basis of whether they want to become healers or not. That is irrelevent to me. I would also like to become an astronaut but I don't think it's ever going to happen. What we want and what's likely are different things and, again, my programme is clear that we do not teach people to become 'shamans'. In itself, however, it also seems fine to me for people to aspire to be healers. If they have the application to learn and the genuine desire to heal I've personally nothing against helping them. However, I am quite clear on paper and in person with those people I talk to that what I offer is not a 'spiritual tour' and they won't become shamans at the end of it. If an apprenticeship is what they are looking for then it will take years and they will have to find shamans they can trust and who will take them as students. To answer your question: I liaise with the shamans and the centre throughout the process of the participant application and each day at camp our shamans have one-to-one consultations of about an hour with participants with a translator present and we have a daily conference too in case of any issues or problems which may arise. So, yes, the shamans are fully involved.
4. Really? I would have thought it's important to ask people for their comments so that the event can be assessed and improved where necessary. Of course, I also ask the shamans and the centre for their feedback too. I am also delighted if people have a 'cool trip'. I definitely don't want anybody to have a lousy time! But if they tell me they have problems I fix them. That is what the feedback is for. I perhaps should also have said that the questionairre they receive is five pages long and covers all aspects of their trip.
In response to your final (unnumbered comment) the healers we work with have of course chosen to work with people outside their community. We do not force them to be there! It is a service they already offer and, as you probably know, in Peru, at least, the curanderos are very happy to offer healing to all who come to them, I think rather like Western doctors who are not going to turn people away based on colour, character or other personal factors if they have a healing need. Granted, they may not always like some of the people they treat (though I've received no complaints from our shamans) but the purpose of being a shaman in Peru is to be in service.
The people who come on these trips are, of course, also coming for 'an experience'. It's an experience they won't get elsewhere and which (irrespective of what some of their comments might imply to you) they get a lot out of. So do the shamans and the centres I work with - and I don't just mean money by which they sustain their communities and protect the forest and the plants around them. There is often a genuine and useful exchange. For example, I have had British and American herbalists on my trips who have come with an interest in plant medicines and who the shamans have been interested to talk to and learn about equivalent Western plants which do a similar job to those of the rainforest.
With respect then, while I hear that what I do doesn't "sit well" with you, I haven't really heard any reasons why you believe that what I am doing is wrong or why I should be regarded as a 'fraud' or even a potential fraud. I'm quite opne about what I do, I'm not offering spiritual tours, I'm not suggesting that people will end up as shamans from attending them, I'm not exploiting or misleading anyone, and I'm offering what I, the shamans, the centres, and my participants regard as a worthwhile experience, so it sits very well with me.
I did say earlier that I'd be receptive to any genuine criticisms and suggestions for improvmenets but, again with respect, I haven't heard any yet. I remain open to them, however.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
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The Racine/Aziz thread.
Numbers again:
2. It may have been wrong of me to mention a rumour that Aziz was being questioned for manslaughter following an ayahuasca ceremony. I have been sent the following which purports to be a statement from Aziz and appears at a website or blog (not his own), for example here, although the link to the story itself looks broken: http://theyliketo.giveittomeraw.com/post/36250669/peter-aziz-local-healer-arrested-for-no-good-reason.
In his statement Aziz says he is a victim of police heavyhandedness in relation to some of his healing claims and practices and his use of ayahuasca.
Here is my story.
On the 8th January this year, the police came to my house with a warrant for my arrest and to search the premises. 6 police officers spent two hours going through my property, seizing herbs, flower essences, sacred oils used for religious purposes, my computer and address books. I was held at Weston Super Mare police station, where they also took my clothes. They told me I was under suspicion of using controlled substances. I assumed they were concerned about the ayahuasca, so I pointed out the letter from the home office that was on my computer, proving that it was not illegal, and also a report from the United Nations convention on psychotropic substances, which clearly excludes ayahuasca from the controlled substance list. As well as this, I had emailed this very police station before running any ceremonies, to make sure they had no objections.
I was released on bail for 6 weeks with the following conditions:
1) Not to leave the country
2) Not to have contact with anyone who has attended my ceremonies
3) Not to perform any healing or spiritual ceremonies of any kind.
4) Not to give anyone any plant substances of any kind.
Since then, bail has been extended 3 times, as they do not have a case against me, but they say they have not finished their investigations. They still have my address book, and with the above restrictions, I have been unable to do business for several months, and have lost £14000 to date. The persecution continues, even though they have absolutely no evidence against me, like a modern day witch hunt.
This has come about after persecution by a small group of doctors called health watch, working for the Codex Alimentarius. More evidence that these Nazi war criminals will stop at nothing to destroy natural health.
Regards
Peter
2. It is generally a contractual point with all commercial publishers that they may choose the title of a book, it's cover design, and so on. Authors get a say in this but depending on the publisher it counts for very little. I protested loud and long about one change of title and it got me exactly nowhere. It's very common, not only with Inner Traditions.
Your comment about "writing for profit" is amusing. I imagine that since you have no experience of commercial publishing but work with academic publishers you are prone to the same beliefs as many others about the money to be made from publishing books like mine. I've heard some very amusing stories about how I'm "raking in money" and "live in a mansion"!
In fact, in the mind-body-spirit area there are very few authors who could even survive by writing books. There have been some exceptions, of course, which catch the mood of the day and become best sellers, but they are rare. Probably the most famous is The Celestine Prophecy which, I believe, sold tens of thousands. Most m-b-s publishers regard annual sales of about 5,000 copies to be average-to-good however and the author has a standard contract to receive 10-12% of the cover price in royalties - and that's on net not gross sales. So if your cover price is $10 and you're on 10% royalty and manage to sell 5,000 copies a year, well you do the math! And bear in mind that royalties are on the net value so the publisher takes his costs (sales, distribution, advertising, etc) out of the figures first. A royalty cheque of $1000 a year would be more like it (and actually good) for most authors, given the figures above.
Now deduct the author's costs (for example, in my case, flights to Haiti and/or Peru for research purposes, food, accommodation, payments to shamans, guides and translators while there and so on) - plus the year it may take to actually write the book - and in many cases authors I know are still waiting to break even several years after their book came out!
I think there are few m-b-s authors who write for the money (in fact, I gave a good % of the income my first book to a rainforest charity). In my case I write because I am interested in the work and happy to pass on information in the hope that it may also be of use to others. I don't want to sound overly-virtuous: I'd love to make some money since I have bills to pay like the next guy, but so far the mansion on the hill is having to wait!
Ross Heaven
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The Amazon thread
Numbers in return:
1. I confess I have never heard of any spiritual tour which claims to make one a shaman. Perhaps you could point me to one so I can read it?
2. One example that comes to mind was a woman two (or three?) years ago who believed herself to be an initated fire-keeper and was full of Western nonsense. She returned to our shamans after our trip ended and followed a plant diet for a further three months - and she is a lot humbler and more respectful now!
3. I liaise with the shamans and the centre throughout the process of the participant application and each day at camp our shamans have one-to-one consultations of about an hour with participants with a translator present and we have a daily conference too in case of any issues or problems which may arise. So, yes, the shamans are fully involved.
4. I am also delighted if people have a 'cool trip'. I definitely don't want anybody to have a lousy time!
...With respect then, while I hear that what I do doesn't "sit well" with you,
5. I haven't really heard any reasons why you believe that what I am doing is wrong or why I should be regarded as a 'fraud' or even a potential fraud.
1. Simply use the search function of our site to look for "spiritual tourism" or even "Amazon" will turn them up.
2 and 3. That's very good to hear.
4. I think you misunderstood me. Not as in enjoyable experience, but as in people going on this for the same reasons most take LSD or psilocybin. A drug trip, even if they dress it up as a search for englightenment. Something they'll brag about to their fellow drug users back home, "Whoa, it was radical du-ude."
Even if the people that come to you are not regular drug users, it does bother me much like it bothers me when whites want to use a sweatlodge "just for the experience" or something equally frivolous. If they are not in need of healing, doing it just to have the experience seems like recreational drug use at worst, wealthy folks feeling superior about when they went slumming in the third world at best.
5. I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do.
I have some concerns or disagreements about some aspects of what you do, but that isn't nearly the same thing.
I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that.
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Thank you educatedindian. It is nice to know that you do not consider me a fraud. May I anticipate having my name removed from this section then and being rehoused in 'not fauds'?
On another note, I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites", such as when you say that "it bothers me when whites [rather than non-indigenous people, for example] want to use a sweatlodge". I appreciate the aims of this forum to protect indigenous peoples and their cultures but your phraseology here sounds more like racism. I'm sure you did not intend that.
As for your comments on drug use, may I just clarify as regards to ayahuasca that there is a special diet that must be followed by everyone who drinks it which (along with certain behavioural, sexual, food and alcohol taboos) prohibits the use of any "drugs" for some weeks before the jungle retreat begins, throughout it and for some time after drinking ayahuasca. Every year the shamans I have worked with are very keen to lecture our participants about the dangers of drugs such as those you mention.
In short, then, it would be most unlikely that a "regular drug user" would even choose our journey because their drugs of choice would be prohibited and unavilable to them for some weeks and if they were found to be using drugs in camp they would (a) be unable to continue drinking ayahuasca, (b) most likely be asked to leave camp immediately, and (c) there are clauses in our contract which state that participants must abide by the reasonable instructions given to them by shamans and that any illegal activities may be reported to the relevant authorities. As you probably know anyway Peru and the airlines which operate to and from it also have strict rules on drugs and not even coca leaves (often used by Peruvians as a tea) may be taken out of the country.
So I'm not sure any would-be "drug users" would choose to join our event or fare well on our diet if they did so. Again, from experience, I can only say nobody I have ever worked with has come to the Amazon expecting a drug trip and nobody, through the use of ayahuasca, has ever got one! I'm sure there will be a first time, however, and so I remain vigilant.
Again, I hear that you feel you have some concerns about what I do. The one that I saw you name was regarding individuals attending my Amazon journey and believing that they might end up as shamans so I checked the (32-page) information document I send to applicants when they approach me about this event and there is nothing in it which makes any claim (or implies) that anyone would become a shaman after this event. In fact it talks about some of the shamans we have worked with and the years of diets and training they have undergone to become shamans themselves. However, I have now added a note, as you suggested, to say expressly that this is not an event which will make instant shamans.
If you have any similar suggestions, I'd be pleased to hear them.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
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Hi Ross
I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend.
There is lots of people who get posted in research needed who aren't "frauds". This catagory is what is says . "Research needed" . As far as i can see anyone who reads this will have a positive impression of you. Mostly because you've earned this through your own behavior. I can see where the title of this thread which doesn't give an accurate impression of you and should maybe be changed.
I doubt the moderators would feel comfortable putting what you are doing in non frauds as that might seem like an endorsment ,and if they don't I hope you don't take that as an insult because you seem like a mature and responsible person. :)
Have you heard of this group?
http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html
The Yurayaco Declaration of the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana (UMIYAC)
Yurayaco, Colombia, June 1999
One of the things that seems to come up here a lot is the problem people have verifying if what people are doing actually has the backing of the indigenous peoples that is claimed. It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful
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Ross you made a statement in regards to educatedindians reply to you.
you said that {on another note,I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites" }.
I don`t see it as racist ,it`s the truth, just that simple it`s the truth.I don`t think you want to play some kind of race card here.
in my life time I am aware of two groups of people stealing {imitating} ceremonies, unauthorized aboriginal people and white people.
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Thank you for your message.
It was, I think, whimsical of me to suggest that I might be moved to the Non Frauds category as, it seems to me, that despite positive comments like yours and educatedindian’s, once you enter the Research Needed category it is, of course, a life-long affair since people will always be scrutinising your work. I don’t actually mind the scrutiny since I am keen to learn and improve but it seems unfortunate that I arrived here based on a frivolous comment from ‘Tepol’ which came without evidence, has nothing to do with my work or the issues this thread has turned in to, and which a few people here have already expressed suspicion about. Then when my actual work has been evaluated the people here have found no fault with it, at least from a fraudulent perspective.
I trust you can see the paradox and the apparently Catch 22 nature of it: that, according to the three available categories at this forum I am either (a) a Fraud (seemingly not) or (b) a Non Fraud (but I am unlikely to end up there, as you say, because that might imply an endorsement from the moderators rather than simply because my work is non-fraudulent in nature, as you and educatedindian seem to think), and so I am consigned to (c) Research Needed which, while I appear vindicated of fraudulent activities per se nevertheless casts suspicion upon me. Perhaps it may be time for a new category - ‘Off The Hook’ or something similar?! – so that people who have so far proved themselves do not at least have to be lumped in with those who have not?
I had a look at the link you gave. Of course, I don’t work in Colombia but only in Peru, but I’m aware of the issues. They may differ in some respects in Peru but there are things in common.
To take the points of the declaration as they relate to ayahuasca in general or my events in particular, I can make these comments (the numbers below relate to the points of the declaration):
2. “We consider yagé, our medicinal plants and our wisdom to be gifts from God and of great benefit for the health of humanity... As sons of the same Creator and brothers and sisters on Mother Earth, we wish to speak, to offer our contribution so that life, peace and health may be possible.” This corresponds to my experience of working with many different shamans in Peru over 10 years or so. They do regard ayahuasca as a gift of great benefit to humanity, not just to their own people and so have nothing per se against working with all those (Western or native) who have a need for “life, peace and health”.
3. “Non-indigenous people are finally acknowledging the importance of our wisdom and the value of our medicinal and sacred plants.” Yes, I believe this is true. I think there is a genuine feeling that ayahuasca may be a ‘medicine for our times’ and the participants I work with attend my journeys with a clear understanding of the benefits of ayahuasca and not (again in my experience) for a “drug trip” or (just) a “cool experience” as has been suggested elsewhere. I agree, however, that that is just my experience.
“Many of them profane our culture and our territories by commercializing yagé and other plants; dressing like Indians and acting like charlatans.” Possibly and more expressly perhaps (for all I know) in Colombia. All I can honestly say here is that I have never experienced this in Peru, certainly from non-natives.
There are what I regard as unfortunate panderings to the tourist trade in Iquitos, for example where you can take a boat trip for some dollars to the ‘Bora Indian reserve’ to ‘watch the natives dancing in their traditional costumes’. This is a different issue, however. It may arise from the Western tourist trade but it is not Westerners themselves who are dressing up; that is a tribal decision.
“Indeed, even some of our own indigenous brothers do not respect the value or our medicine and go around misleading people, selling our symbols in towns and cities.” My comments above aside, this is a wider issue than ‘Westerners – as a general catch-all term – being guilty of cultural theft’. I’d say, in fact, that the Westerners who come on my trips are those least likely to practice or believe in cultural theft. What is true is that in Iquitos you will be constantly hassled to buy ‘Shipibo artwork’, ‘shamanic rattles’ (which the shamans of the Amazon rarely if ever actually use) and the teeth or skins from ‘jungle power animals’, all this by native and local people.
These things are sold for a reason: poverty, which is part of a wider socio-economic problem (admittedly, probably, with Western corporate roots) but these people also rely on the tourist trade for their survival so it is a difficult question to address and one, I am sure, which would not be solved simply by ending all “spiritual tours”.
4. “There are those who take our seeds to patent them, to own them. Others want to declare yagé a narcotic plant and prohibit its use for the good of humanity [my italics]. We also denounce those anthropologists, botanists, business people, doctors and other scientists who are experimenting with yagé and other medicinal and sacred plants without taking into account our ancestral wisdom and our collective intellectual property rights.” I cannot agree more strongly but again these are corporate rather than purely ‘Western’ or ‘non-native’ issues. The shamans too are sometimes complicit in their work with and for those companies who want to patent seeds and cures and “own them” – not just (or only) for the money they receive in return but because they genuinely believe in the power of these plants for “the good of humanity”. I agree very strongly that the knowledge and goodwill of native shamans is being exploited but most often not by small-scale “spiritual tours” or events like mine but on a grand scale by Western corporations, but I also think that demands an enquiry well beyond the scope of this forum.
6. “We demand respect for our territories, our indigenous medicine and our traditional healers”. Of course. These elements are well considered in the events I offer but I have to say (even though this would seem to strip me of any ‘unique selling potential’) that even those companies in Iquitos which sell “spiritual tours” to take part in rainforest ceremonies exhibit a sense of respect for the shamans and their medicines – if only because their own business depends on selling this respect to paying participants and maintaining a good partnership with the shamans who will provide the ceremonies for them. I am not aware – in a pure sense – of any shaman or tribe who is being “exploited” by such people although I do know of some “spiritual tour” operators who pay their shamans so pitifully that I am embarrassed by them, but they are not necessarily all Westerners either.
“We ask the world to acknowledge that our medicine is also a science, although not in the same way Westerners understand it. We, the Taitas, are real healers and for many centuries we have effectively contributed to the health of our villages. Furthermore, our medicine looks beyond the physical and seeks the wellbeing of the mind, the heart and the spirit.” Agreed in full. This is what I meant when I said I do not consider myself to be offering a “spiritual tour” but a healing experience.
7. “We demand the immediate suspension of the patent Loren Miller was awarded in the United States.” I believe this disgraceful patent was overturned some years ago (2004?), which also shows the age of this declaration although its points may still be valid.
8. “We ask for legal recognition of our autonomy in caring for the health of our peoples in accordance with our traditions and values.” In Peru, at least, ayahuasca was declared a National Treasure by the government in 2008 and its traditional ceremonies are protected.
10. “Non-indigenous people can help us consolidate our unity and the defense of our traditional medicine, as it has been proven that they also benefit from the wisdom of the Taitas.” Again agreed in full. For me this is one of the purposes (or at least the outcomes) of the events I run.
11 and 13. “We agreed to work toward the unity and defense of our traditional medicine and offer our services for the health of indigenous people and of humanity... Conscious of the fact that non-Indians also need our services as doctors.” [My italics]. My point as well. The shamans I work with, while recognising ayahuasca as an indigenous medicine do not regard it necessarily for their own use but believe it is a gift for all mankind and one to be treated with respect by everyone.
You say: “One of the things that seems to come up here a lot is the problem people have verifying if what people are doing actually has the backing of the indigenous peoples that is claimed.” Yes, and according to the contents of the link you provided, even whether native people are (a) respecting their own culture and its traditions and (b) genuinely offering the services they purport to be providing. It is a very complex and difficult issue and one which I have given much thought to and which is not going to be answered here simply. Numerous factors intrude.
You also say: “It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful.” Again, with respect, and based on my experience, I think it is more complicated than that. There is competition and ego among traditional healers just as in all walks of life. Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example, and according to what (and whose) criteria, especially given that aspects of all traditions may change? I personally believe that, as non-Peruvians, non-Colombians and non-traditional healers or shamans ourselves, we should know our limitations and not intrude on the deliberations of others but respond to their conclusions and decisions, based also on what we know to be true for ourselves based on our own experiences and not theoretical arguments (though I am not suggesting for a moment that you are doing the latter).
Best wishes
Ross
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Hello bullhead and thank you for your message. I don't think I was playing a "race card". I'm not playing cards at all; I'm happy to engage in dialogue. I see no reason, however, why "whites" should be singled out in any comment about who is exploiting or appropriating cultural traditions or who may or may not be a "fraud".
In fact, if you review the link provided by moma_porcupine you will see complaints in this respect by indigenous Colombian shamans and elders against their own people who are, by definition, not white.
You also say that "I am aware of two groups of people stealing {imitating} ceremonies, unauthorized aboriginal people and white people" but the former of these, again, by definition, would not seem to be "whites" so I think that, in the spirit of this forum we could perhaps be a little more precise in our terms. That is all.
Best wishes
Ross Heaven
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Hi Ross
Some of what you say here makes me wonder ...
You also say: “It seems setting up some sort of reputable directory that is run by principles set forth by the traditional leaders in that area would be really helpful.” Again, with respect, and based on my experience, I think it is more complicated than that. There is competition and ego among traditional healers just as in all walks of life.
Do you mean there is no basic guidelines about the use of these sacred medicines that the tribally respected indigenous leaders in your area agree upon ?
I can understand that making a list of accepted practioners would be hard to do for the reasons you give, but it still seems it would be very helpful if the people who are respected as deeply knowledgeable by their indigenous community , who are NOT involved in the use of these medicines commercially in relation to non indigenous peoples , were to get together and make a formal statement as to what is and what isn't acceptable use of these medicines.
Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example, and according to what (and whose) criteria, especially given that aspects of all traditions may change?
Of all you have said this comment worries me the most.
Do you mean that if the people recognized by their indigenous communities as knowledgable in the use of these medicines got together and came to an agreement , this is what they would say about general guidelines as to the use of these medicines ... ?
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Hello again moma_porcupine and thank you for your comments.
I need to say that I'm not any font of wisdom but from my experience of working in Peru since 1998 my observations are that there is a big dividing line between 'what we (as people who stand outside a particular culture) might like to see' - or even what may be theoretically possible - and what is 'real' and likely to happen.
The first issue is in your question about "tribally respected indigenous leaders". As far as I know there is no current forum. offcially recognised and active body or officiating organisation for tribal leaders in Peru (if there is it has managed to remain invisible, at least to me, for 10 years). The Amazonian conference has, in recent years, come closest to that in the sense that it raises the profile (and globally perceived value) of Amazonian/ayahuasca shamanism and brings many different shamans together, but it is not a tribal council and while it certainly provides value for Amazonian shamans, it is organised by a non-native and, in this case, it is fair to say, a white man.
So, no, again as far as I am aware, there are no guidelines provided by the indigenous people of the Amazon about the 'who, what, where, why and how of ayahuasca' and nor are the problems facing the Amazon traditions simply as a result of "white" or Western influence. Given the lack of cohesion (and the poverty in some areas of Peru as well the competitive stance of many shamans) it is 'survival' that concerns people rather than 'morals and values'.
I'm not saying your idea of a code may not be a good or in some ways workable one but there are realities (rather than our hopes and desires) which would make it difficult and, as far as I see anyway, the initiative needs to come from the natives and be led and managed by them, not have Westerners with 'good ideas' impose their views upon them as has been so common in the past.
In the absence of any 'tribal council' or indigenous leadership hence my comment 'Who is to say who is even a “traditional healer” for example" - well, indeed who is? Would a 'traditional healer' be the man in the jungle no-one has heard of who is quietly serving his community and has no public profile, or the 'superstar shaman' who possibly lacks experience but has developed a profile perhaps due to his appearance at the sort of conferences I mentioned? If the latter, on whose authority does he speak? If the former, how will his voice be heard?
I also asked "according to what (and whose) criteria" might the 'tribal voice' be elected, "especially given that aspects of all traditions may change?" See my point above. The traditions of the Amazon do - and are - changing so whose voice do we listen to and how do we find and elect our 'genuine' shamans? Once 'elected' will they even be heeded since the views of younger, more popular and more 'income-generating' healers may not be those of their elders in the jungle rather than the city?
But these, surely, are questions for the indigenous healers of Peru to decide upon? I, for one, do not pretend to think I know best and would therefore not wish to impose my views upon them even if I would consider them 'in their best interests'. It is a complex matter, entangled with history, economics (current and past) and perhaps even local tribal conflicts and the modernday need to survive, and it is far more complicated than the matters this forum sets out to address. I certainly would not want to make any sweeping statements about what should or should not be done.
Best wishes
Ross
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1...May I anticipate having my name removed from this section then and being rehoused in 'not fauds'?
2. On another note, I am a little disturbed by your comments about "whites", such as when you say that "it bothers me when whites [rather than non-indigenous people, for example] want to use a sweatlodge". I appreciate the aims of this forum to protect indigenous peoples and their cultures but your phraseology here sounds more like racism. I'm sure you did not intend that.
3...it would be most unlikely that a "regular drug user" would even choose our journey because their drugs of choice would be prohibited and unavilable...and so I remain vigilant.
4. I have now added a note, as you suggested, to say expressly that this is not an event which will make instant shamans.
1. Research Needed doesn't automatically imply "Fraud Under Investigation" or anything like that. Some things under RN threads include questions about legal or historical topics. We also sometimes put a thread into Archives with a big disclaimer NO LONGER A SUBJECT OF CONCERN.
So I'd like to ask all that are reading this thread to comment as to what we should do with the thread. Archive, Non Fraud, or keep it here?
2. I meant people outside the community, and gave whites using a sweatlodge as an example.
3 and 4. These are good to hear, thanks.
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Ross - You continue to stand heads above the throngs. Using this forum's own criteria, here is NO justifiable rationale to keep you in the "Research Needed" category! What more could ANYONE possibly need researched about you at this point in time! [Insults removed] here you take the time and great care to come right in and not only THOROUGHLY explain yourself but even INVITE suggestions! What more would any reasonable moderator want in any forum!
On top of that, [one moderator out of five] of this forum states:
"I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all."
He clearly says he does not think you are a fraud - so what more is needed to remove you from this thread and place you in the Non Frauds category.[Insults]
"Not sure if they are or aren't a fraud?" Well [one moderator out of five] has [said] that [he doesn't think you are] one. [Insults]
IF anyone is so concerned that this forum's moderators might look as though they are "endorsing" you by placing you in the NON-Frauds category ALL they need do is place a caveat in the beginning of your newly placed thread AND change that absurd title of your thread as well.
In lieu of that reasonable move, they could simply delete your entire thread. Either way, clearly you do NOT deserve to be left in limbo in this category which states:
"Research Needed - Not sure if they are fraudulent or not?"
Equally as clearly, you have earned the right to be placed in the Non-Frauds category which reads:
"Non-Frauds- People who are genuine and trustworthy"
I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum.
It's not as though moving you to Non-Frauds is chiseled in stone.
[More insults removed.] Either way, Ross, you clearly prevail as honest, intelligent, forthright, open, sincere, "genuine and trustworthy." Congratulations. I hope your traits are matched here.
[Al's note: Keep your childish insults out. You only harm the image of the people you claim to help. Thread retitled, which you could have done yourself if so concerned about it.]
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So I'd like to ask all that are reading this thread to comment as to what we should do with the thread. Archive, Non Fraud, or keep it here?
It's a tough call because it seems a lot of "research is needed " about ayachuasca tourism in general. I have a hard time believing there is no generally agreed on standards for it's use , and no definent body of opinion which considers some things a misuse. If that body of opinion exists in the indigenous community and is because of cultural concerns , i would like to know what those concerns are and support only those practices that respect those concerns.
On the other hand, clearly there is many indigenous peoples who are supporting the sharing of ayahuasca with visitors, and when I do a search for "controversy" , "exploitation " "abuse" in relation to ayahuasca I don't find anyone making complaints. Of course as Mr Ross says , that may be because the actual indigenous leaders who have retained their culture without being influenced by nonindigenous tourism are too far back in the jungle for their voices to be heard. And there is that statement from UMIYAC which clearly does express some concerns.
But the question more seems to be about Ayahuasca tourism in general than about Mr Ross.
Maybe if this was left in research needed, but the title was changed to " ayahuasca tourism?"
Also it might be good if the first post was edited to include a note at the begining explaining that Mr Ross denies writting the email that is being complained about- and there is no evidence he did.
Just my opinion. It would be interesting to hear other peoples.
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[Sidetrack argument about squid's insults removed.]
Pertaining to the concept of creating a "directory" of "approved practitioners" is as Ross has stated unrealistic and would only serve to mislead people. It also smacks of colonialism and dangerously threatens to cause further "competition" among practitioners. Further, it places outside of that culture a power to control or unduly influence those traditional practitioners and thus the tradition itself. Why fix what is not broken? It is the minds of those who seek which need to adjust to the indigenous mindset = and not the minds of the traditionals that need to now conform to nonIndian "standards." Next likely, a bureaucracy akin to the FDA will get their self-dealing fingers in the mix. More power to people like Ross who take the time to educate those seekers and serve as an honest bridge connecting two sets of people in service. (I do not know Ross and my comments are my own.)
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But the question more seems to be about Ayahuasca tourism in general than about Mr Ross.
Maybe if this was left in research needed, but the title was changed to " ayahuasca tourism
X2 I would also like to see a shift fire to these tourist andeavors. There might just be something contoversial and we are unable to hear about it.
Good post Mama P. I thought I was the only person that thought there is something missing and needed researched.
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For what it's worth, I'd be happy to help with a new thread on 'ayahuasca tourism' if you think I can add to it. I've worked in the Amazon for a number of years, I know some of the issues as I hope my earlier comments might suggest, and while those issues are complicated - not just about 'pointing fingers' and ascribing 'blame' (if that is the correct word) - I also know some of the people who are running 'ayahuasca' and 'spiritual tours' and (although I might not want to name names) IMHO are guilty of - if not cultural theft, then exploitation of the shamans they work with and the participants who join their events.
With respect, however, that also seems to be a different subject to this thread and so the personal conundrum for me remains: here I am in 'Research Needed' while I have a few people here (including one moderator) stating that I am not a fraud at least according to the aims of this forum and particularly in relation to this thread. I'd be very happy to resolve this matter then, by all means (if you wish) contribute to a new thread along the lines suggested.
Also, just as a thought: for those people who are singled out for investigation but who might, like myself, be keen to work with this forum, perhaps there is scope for the development of some sort of 'council' here offering suggestions for improvement as a positive step forward? For example, again with respect, I have heard vague criticisms of my work here but little by way of practical suggestions for what an alternative and better 'good practice' might be. Educatedindian had one good idea for including a statement regarding my Amazon trip that it will not make anyone 'a shaman' and I've done that because I thought it sounded sensible,and I've said all along that further suggestions would be considered.
More generally though, if this forum is for the advocation of positive change rather than just criticism, might it not be useful to offer informed opinion and advice to all those practitioners who are criticised for their work as a first step in place of pure condemnation and in the hope that they can change - i.e. for this group to act in an advisory capacity as well?
Simply my thoughts.
Best wishes
Ross
[Thread retitled]
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Thread retitled since most agree this reflects what the discussion has become about.
Interesting argument by squid: That if NDN traditionals come together to discuss guidelines or issue public statements it's "colonialism". But what an outsider like Ross is somehow truly "traditional" in his view. While Ross has certainly done his best to be ethical and just, he is an outsider (and does not pretend otherwise).
Nope, it's called activism and defending tradition and just plain old trying to do right. It's what AIM and traditional elders have done many times already with every one of their declarations. If you haven't read those declarations maybe you should, and take a look at who signed them.
And the statement "why fix what is not broken?" That's truly bizarre. Huge numbers of people are harmed all the time by spiritual tourism, psychological and physical harm done by taking ayahuasca when theyare capable of handling it emotionally or the preparation is done poorly by people who don't know how to do a ceremony. Some ayahuasca tour operators aren't even going to actual NDN healers. They're going to any mestizo who can pass as an NDN and will hand out the drug for profit.
And that's not even counting all the pseudo-shamans spreading disinformation, who pass off having taken one of the tours as proof they are supposedly now shamans.
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We have quite a bit on Ayahuasca use and misuse if you go to search. Here is just a couple of the threads: http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html and http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=543.0
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Hi Ross
I really appreciate your offer to try and answer some of the questions about ayahuasca tourism generally , and your suggestion you might be able to help find some solutions to any remaining concerns if they are legitimate.
Also, just as a thought: for those people who are singled out for investigation but who might, like myself, be keen to work with this forum, perhaps there is scope for the development of some sort of 'council' here offering suggestions for improvement as a positive step forward? For example, again with respect, I have heard vague criticisms of my work here but little by way of practical suggestions for what an alternative and better 'good practice' might be.
More generally though, if this forum is for the advocation of positive change rather than just criticism, might it not be useful to offer informed opinion and advice to all those practitioners who are criticised for their work as a first step in place of pure condemnation and in the hope that they can change - i.e. for this group to act in an advisory capacity as well
One of the things your responses have reminded me of, is how surprised I have felt that up until now nobody I have seen listed in research needed has ever responded in what would seem to be a reasonable way , which to me would be saying "hey I didn't realize there was concerns but now you point this out I want to be sure i am not a part of the problem - what can I do ....?
This is basicly what you just did. :o
I've wondered about this before, and i think the main reason for this is the people who get discussed here almost always either don't care that they are offending people or they know they are just making stuff up and don't care if they decieve people. People like that aren't really interested in "making improvements' or addressing legitimate concerns.
The reason I say most the people discussed here simply don't care if they are doing something that is really offensive or decietful is because people who have spent any time in North American Native communities would have a hard time not knowing what they are doing is extremely controversial at best .
Almost all Elders strongly object to stuff like charging money for the traditional ceremonies. When Elders hear about someone advertising themselves as healers or charging a set fee for healing , they usually have something to say about this that makes it clear they disapprove. It is generally understood that people need to have been properly taught and it isn't OK to make stuff up or mix and match traditions from one tribe with another and when Elders see this they usually get concerned. Almost all the Elders i have ever known expressed concern or strong disapproval if they heard of a non native person leading ceremonies - even if these Elders didn't mind sometimes including non native people in a ceremony . There has also been numerous widely published statements on these topics asking people who are doing these things to stop.
If someone has gone so far as to be advertising these sorts of things on the internet, if they have ever had any contact with actual Native people , they have almost certainly been repeatedly told what they are doing is very offensive. If they are still doing this, it's usually because they don't care, or they are so completely in a fantasy world they don't know and probably wouldn't notice if a train ran over them.
And often the only way to improve this , would be to simply stop doing it, and not much else. It's kind of like a pimp asking how they could improve hiring out your daughter. Usually it just needs to stop.
In the case of ayahuasca tourism the situation is different as it isn't so clear - at least from afar - what is considered respectful or appropriate with regards to the use of ayahuasca.
I would like to take you up on your offer and ask some questions, and explore concerns , but I don't want to waste your time with silly questions or waste this opprotunity by not taking the time to try and make sure what I ask is well thought out, and will cover at least some of the main issues in a balanced way.
It may take a couple days to put that together so I hope you will stick around !
Once again I want to say I appreciate that you are willing to explore this and see if there is ways to encourage respectful interactions between the cultures involved.
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[MODERATOR'S NOTE:
Squid and RDR are the same person. They have the same ISP, not to mention identical writing styles. "They" need to explain the multiple sockpuppet IDs.]
AIM has never been welcome on [a few] reservations and is to this day not condoned by [some] traditional leaders. (Look whose names are MISSING from any AIM decalration too!) To give the impression that AIM and tradtional leaders (or anybody else in NDN America) are all working in unison [in my opinion]is grossly misleading - and illustrates just how hard it is to legitimattly present a "united front." If we can't do that here (and I am for both AIM and traditional leaders - caught in the middle - then there is no reason to believe any effort by outsiders, like the one effort by a white man referenced above -
(http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html)
is going to make things better in south America. I say let's address the issues at home first - then we can have a foundation to stand on and a model to offer others. Other wise, like [I said as MY OTHER SOCKPUPPET] we're just meddling in another's land while our own is still in cayos.
By the way Al [in my opinion], Plants are NOT "drugs"; you said:
"Some ayahuasca tour operators aren't even going to actual NDN healers. They're going to any mestizo who can pass as an NDN and will hand out the drug for profit."
[Note: Ayahuasca IS a drug. That is a fact.]
I understand that Ayahuasca is also freely available in Europe, with [a few of the llaeged] shamans' blessing, and for use by those Europeans who were entrusted with that knowledge and access. [A few shamans have said] they WANT outsiders to use their plants - with respect, like mr ross seems to be doing.
Al, are you also saying that mestizos can't be shaman?
[Numerous lies removed.]
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Thank you for your message moma_porcupine. I am interested to see your questions and to contribute to any fair discussion of ayahuasca and the traditions of Peru in so far as I can do so based on my experience of the country, its people, its shamans and medicines.
However, I am still uncomfortable with the contents of this current thread and do not think giving it its new title solves the problems I outlined before:
This thread still begins with the “love guru” nonsense from ‘Tepol’ which has nothing at all to do with ayahuasca. Before I even joined this group, three people (Barnaby, Zoi and chiefytiger) had some concerns about the veracity of the points ‘Tepol’ was making and asked for evidence. None was ever forthcoming and as I later remarked ‘Tepol’ (known at other forums by other names) has spent a total of 3 minutes as part of this forum, made only 1 post and started 1 topic (the one which began this thread), which does not add to his credibility.
educatedindian has also said on March 20 that “we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind.”
Since this thread has moved on to other things, therefore, and since ‘Tepol’ has been dismissed, I see no reason for his post to remain here (or, for that matter, my response to it). I would therefore respectfully ask it to be removed. As educatedindian remarks on March 25 “We also sometimes put a thread into Archives with a big disclaimer NO LONGER A SUBJECT OF CONCERN” and I would suggest that there is every case for doing that here with that particular message.
I was then asked by educatedindian to comment on issues regarding a vodou thread ostensibly about Racine and Aziz, which I did, prompting a further reply from educatedindian that “That fits with what I recall finding about her”. Again, therefore, my response seems bonafide but vodou, as you are aware, also has nothing to do with the ayahuasca traditions of the Amazon so, again, I think it is confusing and of little value to retain posts about vodou here. Perhaps they can be removed to the vodou thread in question or placed elsewhere in order to tidy things up here?
As regards the various posts here which do relate to ayahuasca, several people have remarked on what appears to be the non-fraudulent nature of my activities. Among them:
Educatedindian: “I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do... I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that”
Moma_porcupine: “I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend... As far as I can see anyone who reads this will have a positive impression of you.”
SQuid: “Using this forum's own criteria, there is NO justifiable rationale to keep you in the "Research Needed" category!... I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum... you clearly prevail as honest, intelligent, forthright, open, sincere, "genuine and trustworthy."
And RDR: “Shaman after shaman has said they WANT outsiders to use their plants - with respect, like mr ross seems to be doing”
I therefore also think it would be more appropriate to begin a wholly new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ since, at the moment anyone who reads the material here might assume that this topic arose in concern to my own work whereas in truth it did not and in any case the comments above from forum members are generally positive towards me.
An entirely new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ would allow this topic to be discussed without an apparent (and erroneous) focus on my work and the confusions around this that might result.
I’d be happy to create this new thread if you wish and to answer any questions there and make some comments of my own. I think it would be inappropriate for me to make such comments as part of this existing thread, however, because I would not want to appear, amongst other things, to be seeking approval for my work while criticisng that of others.
So... I have the following questions – or, rather, requests - to the moderators:
1. Can we please get rid of the earlier irrelevant and unsubstantiated “love guru” comments, one way or another
2. Can we also tidy up this thread to place the vodou discussion in a more appropriate place
3. Can we also then begin a wholly new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ which does not focus so specifically on me so I feel that I may also be able to contribute to it
Thank you for your considerations.
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[MODERATOR'S NOTE:
Squid and RDR are the same person. They have the same ISP, not to mention identical writing styles. "They" need to explain the multiple sockpuppet IDs.]
I see that Ross Heaven's name is listed in the thread "FRAUDS in the UK" under the category of "FRAUDS!" The thread mistakenly leaves one wondering if Ross Heaven is to be considered a "UK Fraud."
[Disruption and further sidetracks removed. That thread actually does NOT state any such thing at all.
Heaven already answered those accusations earlier in this thread, but Squid/RDR and any other sockpuppets s/he creates seem determined to cause problems.]
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Well carefully sidesteping some of the distorted misleading and off topic comments which appear to have no purpose except to disrupt things.....
I guess the first thing I would like to ask is about the traditional uses of ayahuasca in the area where you take people .
I'm not clear if using ayahuasca in a traditional way is something that would only be used as a part of a sacred ceremony , which has a strict structure and protocols, or if it is seen as a medicine which is good for some mental health issues ( but maybe dangerous in other situations) or if it is seen as something nice like mangos which are good for you any way you feel like using them.
1 . Is ayahuasca used by some groups in the area you visit as a part of a sacred ceremony that has a specific formalized structure?
2. How do people who are strictly traditional feel about allowing people from outside of the culture to participate in these ceremonies? Is there a range of opinion?
3. Are there some traditionally inclined indigenous people who use ayahuasca , who feel outsiders should not be allowed to participate in some forms of these ceremonies ?
4. Is there any disagreements in indigenous communities about what is respectful use of ayahuasca? If there is could you give us an outline of what the different points of view on this are?
5. If ayahuasca is traditionally used as medicine , what exactly is it used for?
6. In a traditional indigenous conmmunity is ayahuasca often used as a general mental health tonic , when there is no specific complaint?
7. Are there specific mental / spiritual health problems that might be made worse by the use of ayahuasca
8. I also wanted to ask you if you would be comfortable to identify some of the not for profit Amazonian centers you mentioned supporting and working with?
When people are involved with others, it can help them have a balanced perspective and i think it good to know who people are affiliated with.
Thanks for being willing to explain this from your own point of view. l
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Thanks for your questions. These are interesting and I have thoughts on them all. I'm sure the answers and the debate arising from them would be useful, too, in the greater understanding of ayahuasca and ayahuasca shamanism and how it differs, for example, from the Native American concerns and interests which this forum, in the main, appears to consider but which are not always transferrable to other cultures and peoples.
However, as you see from my earlier post, I do not believe this thread is the correct place for this topic to evolve for the reasons I stated.
So I'd like to see what the moderators have to say about my requests before going further, and the idea of opening a new topic thread where questions like yours could be posted and we could go more deeply into the subject.
Best wishes
Ross
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Hi Ross
Lots of stuff listed in research needed isn't there because people are trying to decide if it is a fraud. There is lots of products and services listed here because what needs research is the ethics and impact a particular product or service may have on indigenous peoples. As you yourself say. it is a complex subject.
Ross Reply #18 in response to the statement put out by the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana
I had a look at the link you gave. Of course, I don’t work in Colombia but only in Peru, but I’m aware of the issues. They may differ in some respects in Peru but there are things in common.
I managed to find a really interesting article which presents a bit of the indigenous perspective , and this article is about ayahuasca tourism and how it is affecting the Shipibo community , which sound like the same people you are working with.
http://www.villageearth.org/pages/Projects/Peru/perublog/labels/indigenous%20tourism.html
Peru Project Blog
Tourism Opens New Doors, Creates New Challenges, for Traditional Healers in Peru
By Proctor, Rachel
January 31, 2001 Cultural Survival Quarterly Issue 24.4
Mateo Arevalo, 43, was born into a family of traditional healers, or curanderos, in the Shipibo community of San Francisco de Yarinacocha in Peru. When he decided to follow in his father's footsteps and learn curandismo, he was taught to prepare a ceremonial drink from a woody vine scientists call Banisteriopsis caapi and curanderos call "ayahuasca," a Quechua word meaning "vine of the soul."
While Arevalo's forefathers put such knowledge to local use, generally treating their neighbors on a pro bono basis, Arevalo is proud to apply it to a wider audience.
But ayahuasca's new marketability has brought traditional healing to a dangerous crossroads. Tourist dollars could allow shamans to support themselves while continuing to treat their neighbors for little or nothing, but it could just as easily allow a privileged few to abandon their communities for a more affluent life in tourist towns or jungle lodges.
It is ironic that even a decade ago the main threat to traditional healing was lack of interest.
Arevalo agrees that the young were never interested in his work -- until now. These days, he receives many requests for training from young Shipibos who see the possibilities in a bottle of ayahuasca. Interest in healing, on the other hand, is still on the wane. "The young who ask me to teach them do not want to be curanderos," said Arevalo, who insists that his work with tourists does not interfere with his commitment to the health of the community. "They are only interested in giving ayahuasca to the tourists."
Even if practitioners of traditional medicine do move away from healing and into tourism, it would seem at first glance that ayahuasca tourism can, at the very least, help to preserve a tradition that might otherwise be forgotten. But because foreign consumers of ayahuasca often come with romanticized images of what a South American shaman should be, shamans have an incentive to alter their discourse to fit expectations.
"The Shipibos are very assimilated," says LeClerc. "The healers use the Bible, which isn't `really' part of their culture, but for them, it's as traditional as anything else. Then foreigners come, only looking for the natural, and the shamans change what they're saying to please them. So in some ways, tourism is bringing about a recovery of the past." At the same time, new foreign elements are becoming a part of the practice of some shamans.
One foreign element that no one appreciates, however, is outsides' desire to capitalize on interest in ayahuasca without providing any benefits to the community. The most egregious example is the 1986 U.S. patent on ayahuasca by an American pharmacology student.
In addition to concerns over compensation for their intellectual property, the patent's challengers warned that removing the plant from its traditional role could have devastating results, citing the existing gulf between the traditional use of the coca leaf in the Andes and the abuse of cocaine in the North. Just which adaptations and innovations are appropriate is a matter of considerable debate. The older generation of shamans in San Francisco, those who continue to heal their neighbors (or at least learned to do so, even if it no longer fits easily into their schedules), unanimously found ayahuasca-selling by those who do not heal inappropriate. Muñoz, who does not give ayahuasca recreationally, considers any ayahuasca tourism without a healing element to be a misuse. "If you go to the doctor, it's because you're sick," he said. "But sadly, in our country curanderos give ayahuasca to any tourist who asks for it. Ayahuasca should not be used as a recreational drug."
"Ayahuasca is incredibly hard on the body, especially the liver and kidneys, and this is why in traditional healing it is the shaman who takes ayahuasca, not the patient.
Straddling the past and the future is Rodolfo Valles, one of the rare young Shipibos learning curandismo in San Francisco. Throughout his life he has seen his father curing members of his community free of charge. Now, at 19, he has begun the fasting and ayahuasca-induced training sessions that will culminate in his first healing, which he hopes he will achieve within a year. He plans to earn the money he needs to buy that which the jungle does not provide by teaching languages in a nearby mestizo town, and thinks any shaman who charges for his services is a fraud. Yet when asked if he would do ceremonies for tourists if the opportunity arose, he demonstrates conflicted feelings. "It makes me ashamed when shamans charge the tourists for their ceremonies," Valles says. "But if people want to know about our reality and about Shipibo culture, I want to show them." He plans to get around his moral qualms by adopting the technique of many shamans: requesting a voluntary donation rather than charging a set fee. Furthermore, he insists that his primary concern will always be the sick in his community. "I want to be a shaman because I want to help people," he says. "I see so many needs in my community, so many sick people who can't afford medicine at the pharmacy."
If shamans are too busy entertaining tourists to help their communities, one can't say that a tradition has been preserved. It will have mutated into an empty commercial endeavor that does little to preserve Shipibo heritage or help the community as a whole.
( my bold highlighting)
I found quite a bit of information from various sources that echos this , but this is the only article I have found so far , that actually quotes some of the Shipibo people and expresses how they see this.
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Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:
Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.
Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.
I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.
I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.
To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.
I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.
Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.
I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.
Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.
That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.
Best wishes
Ross
That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.
Ross
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Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:
Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.
Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.
I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.
I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.
To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.
I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.
Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.
I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.
Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.
That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.
Best wishes
Ross
That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.
Ross
The last time a thread was moved from Research Needed to Non-Frauds before adequate research had been done, it was only a matter of months before it landed back in Research Needed. I don't think we need to be in a rush about this.
I know some have said that we should discount Tepol because he was basically a drive-by. I can't do that. There was a reason he posted what he did. He didn't wake up one morning and decide to hate on Ross Heaven. There's something there and maybe you need to explain what it is, as you're the only one who knows Tepol.
I don't think anyone has said Ross Heaven is not a fraud. Some have said you don't seem to be a fraud, you're polite and willing to answer questions, etc. However, that politeness and co-operative spirit seem to be slipping. This is taking up too much of your time? You aren't going to continue this discussion unless we follow your rules? You don't need to answer to us or anyone else? That attitude doesn't speak well for you.
More than Ross Heaven is being researched here. The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched. This medicine belongs to the people of South America. Is it really yours or any other Euro's to appropriate?
If this is being put to a vote . . . I think this thread is right where it belongs. I think every post on here should stay just the way it reads.
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Thank you for your comments bls929.
To answer your points:
You say: "I don't think anyone has said Ross Heaven is not a fraud."
On March 24 educatedindian, a forum moderator, said this: "I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do. I have some concerns or disagreements about some aspects of what you do, but that isn't nearly the same thing. I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that." [The underlines are mine; the bold is educatedindian's]
On March 25 Squid (or RDR or whoever) said: "I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum" - and there is a place for "genuine and trustworthy" people at this group. It is the non-frauds section, which you define in your own terms as a place for "People who are genuine and trustworthy".
You say: "[People have said] you're polite and willing to answer questions, etc."
Yes. Thank you. on March 24 moma_porcupine said: "I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend."
I feel, however, that I have answered enough personal questions and that this thread has now moved on. As you say: "More than Ross Heaven is being researched here. The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched."
Agreed. So I am suggesting that we start a new thread to do that. I really don't understand why that seems so controversial to you.
If you read back to my original post on this I proposed only that since this thread has moved on we tidy it up by getting rid of extraneous material. There are two unrelated topics here:
1. Vodou, which has nothing to do with ayahuasca. There is however an existing thread on this and I cannot see why the posts about vodou in this 'ayahuasca thread' cannot therefore go there. Is there a reason that you can see, given your desire to discuss the use of ayahuasca, which is not a component of vodou at all?
2. The other unrelated topic comes from Tepol, of which educatedindian said on March 20: "Yes, we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind" (my italics) - and yet here we are doing so once again. moma_porcupine's email to me referred to it and you are doing so again now. Inevitably, therefore, it seems to me that it will always be brought back up while it remains an irrelevant part of this thread.
As far as I (and you, it seems) are concerned we have moved on in this thread to consider other subjects, so why do you also feel a need to go over old ground and refer to topics that have been dealt with? The nature of this thread is now general (as you say: "The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched.") Correct! So why retain or refer to earlier posts which have no bearing on it? The answer seems simple (and inevitable) to me: because they are there! My suggestion was therefore to move that post so we can also move on. Again, I wonder what your reluctance is.
You say: "However, that politeness and co-operative spirit seem to be slipping."
I'm sorry you find me impolite. I imagine 'politeness' is a subjective thing, however, so it is rather pointless for me to make any comment here about your perceptions.
On the subject of my "co-operative spirit", however, first let's be clear that there is no compulsion for me to be here or to "co-operate" with you or anyone else. I have done so (and am willing to continue) through my personal choice, through interest in the subject of ayahuasca, and because there seems to be a lot of misinformation/lack of information or ignorance about the subject which I'm happy to help clear up (for example, educatedindian has twice referred to ayahuasca as a "drug". That may be his view but the curanderos of the Amazon actually regard it as a sacrament and - in their own Native words - as a "jungle doctor" so I am sure they would be quite offended to hear it called a drug, especially as many of them seem to have a clear anti-drugs stance themselves). This forum is not an inquisition however (I hope) and surely nobody should feel as if they must "co-operate" with you by giving you the information you're asking for or that it will therefore somehow "prove" they are a fraud if they do not?
You say: "This is taking up too much of your time?"
I said, to be exact: "Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot" - as we are doing again here.
I had hoped, as I said earlier, that we might explore some of the interesting questions relating to ayahuasca and its use but, in fact, the thread keeps reverting to 'an examination of Ross' character' - as you are doing here. That seems to me inevitable in a thread which begins with a post about me and then confuses itself by trying to take the generalist ground. To me, it is simply a matter of logic and the need for clear categories that we tidy things up and I don't see the need for any controversy around it. I am sure that educatedindian, as an academic , must also see the necessity for clarity, for defining ones terms and for addressing the issues involved in a discussion in a logical and non-confusing way.
You say: "You aren't going to continue this discussion unless we follow your rules?"
I said, to be exact: "while... I myself remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it" ("I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all[/u) - and here we are again, with your message bringing it back to the personal rather than the general.
I am not giving you "rules" to be followed. I have asked for clarity in the thread and for the removal of some items to their proper location (vodou) and others altogether since they have no bearing on this current subject and a moderator has already suggested to the group that "we should pay them no mind". I am also asking for the creation of a more general thread (ex- the material about me which is specific and personal and can be put elsewhere) so we can discuss the general subject you say you want to.
I did not phrase those as "rules" but in my post which suggests all of this as "questions or rather requests". Those polite (and to me, sensible) requests have gone unheeded. My view therefore is that it makes it difficult for me to say much more about ayahuasca in general because it is always going to be related to my work in particular while it remains in this thread.
You say: "You don't need to answer to us or anyone else?"
Correct. Why do you think I should? In connection with my ayahuasca work a moderator has already said, once again, "I don't think you are [a fraud] at all." But even if in your view I was, I still don't have to answer to you about your opinion of me, just as wouldn't expect you to have to "answer" to me for holding that opinion, even if it was wholly wrong.
I have joined this group and posted here to offer clarification on some points and now I have gone further and offered to provide you with information based on experience about a subject that seems to interest you (ayahuasca). I have done so as a courtesy and to extend this conversation into something worthwhile but please do not for a moment be confused by thinking I feel compelled to, or must, "answer" to anyone - or even answer the questions put to me. It would be a donation of my time if I did since these questions about ayahuasca are currently specifically directed to me. I am willing to provide you with the information you ask for but, as with any request to another for a donation of anything, it is one which should be politely made not demanded. I would suggest also that a proper attitude would be to hear the answers given fairly and objectively, not assume that this information is provided because you need or a right to be "answered to".
You say: "That attitude doesn't speak well for you."
I wonder why? Do I have no rights to a life of my own?! As I said before, taking part in this forum is time-consuming but, more than that, going over the same points rather than moving on (as I have had to do here yet again) is tedious and not a good investment of my time (or anyone else's I should imagine), especially when others on this forum have already vindicated my work.
You say: "The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched."
Yes, finally (after your several personal and specific points about me, not ayahuasca) we are back to the supposed subject of this thread once again. Given that we have not yet even started to look at this subject, however, I'd suggest that this validates my point about the confusing mix of personal and general that it involves and once more then I can only suggest that you begin a new, clearer, thread (minus the personal material) where this can be properly discussed if that is truly what you want. But I'm afraid that as things stand I can't help you further in this one.
It seems a pity to me not to have someone with personal experience about the subject in hand to take part in this discussion but if that is what you prefer I can only wish you well in your research.
Best wishes
Ross
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Sorry for all the underlines - I'm still trying to get used to these buttons!
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Thank you Ross for your patience and general deportment in this thread....I hope that your suggestions for cleaning up the thread are respected. Some have not yet looked into the mirrors of their own soul yet. I agree that more research would be useful regarding ayahuasca and your participation in the discussion would be helpful as a consultant and not as a target.
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The last time a thread was moved from Research Needed to Non-Frauds before adequate research had been done, it was only a matter of months before it landed back in Research Needed. I don't think we need to be in a rush about this.
The individual who was the subject of that thread came and made a statement or two also. He had many supporters; I was one of them. The thread was moved to Non-Frauds. All that doesn't change the fact that he and his organization are back in Research Needed.
If this is being put to a vote . . . I think this thread is right where it belongs. I think every post on here should stay just the way it reads.
I stand by what I said last night. I think this entire thread needs to stay right where it is.
If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread.
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Thank you again bls.
You say: "If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread."
If that comment was addressed to me, let me say that I would not presume to start a new thread without a moderator's permission - especially as it is other people at this forum who would like to discuss ayahuasca. I find the subject most interesting, but it is not I who lack information or have questions,
However, if a new thread begins (which I believe would be sensible) I think it should also be more objective and less inherently biased from the outset than the tone of the one you suggest. I have offered to discuss the general subject of ayahuasca and its use with you. Creating a thread about the "appropriation" of ayahuasca gives a rather particular leaning to the discussion before it even begins, however, and it's one which, again, I wouldn't care to take part in.
So shall we try to be a little more objective here and open to learning rather than condemnation from the outset?
Best wishes
Ross
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Thank you wolf.
I'll be interested to join in such a discussion if one ever begins.
Best wishes
Ross
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Ross, If you want to start another thread on Ayahuasca, you are free to start one. But, it will eventually lead to the discussion of Ayahuasca tourism, tours, entrepreneurship and people that dabble in other people cultures (medicine) and/or religion. Even though this may not be for profit, there are still secondary gains that people have. I don't think "enlightment" or experimentation is enough to justify the use or to encourage the use. Now, that's just my opinion. There is already information about Ayahuasca on the forum, as it has been discussed.
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There is another thread on Ayahuasca in the link below
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1524.0
What I am posting here doesn't have much to do with ayahuasca tourism....
Ross , some of your responses here made me curious and i did some digging. I turned up some interesting
stuff.
First , as i pointed out in that PM you mentioned , I found it a little surprising that you would defend the content of an email you say was a forgery done in your name , and that you would go on to say you agreed with it's content so much you might copy and paste it as a response to similar complaints . :o
I was thinking to leave your personal quirks off of the public message board but as you mention my PM ....
I began typing something in response and the more I put this together and dug - well the more interesting stuff I found.
from Tepol's first post in this thread
Here are some of the love/ly words that this master of love likes to use when challanged about his authencticity.
Note Mr Heaven likes to promote books to overcome fear ,such as one below, while clearly using it as an excuse to overcome his own ultimate fear i.e. money.
Below you can see some links to his many accomplishments , and after that below the line , his response to my original email.
This is the only thing Tepol posted about you, and in this he makes 2 allegations
1. That you wrote an email which made frequent use of the F word
and
2. Tepol believes you have a fear of not having enough money
and Tepol also implies he doesn't like you
These both seem like frivolous complaints , and 2 people immediately began asking Tepol questions about who they were and asking to see what that alleged email was in response to.
Nothing else was said about you that was in any way negative. Then you come on here and explain that you did not write that email and Tepol has been spreading strange stories about on various message boards .
Reply #4
Ross
Tepol (if that's what he's now calling himself) has been posting the same alleged email from me ad nauseum on various sites for a few years now and has even decided to create a blog site for himself at http://no2.vox.com/library/post/ross-heaven---the-fake-shaman.html where, as you'll see, he pretends to be me and posts and answers emails in my name, presumably from a fake email account he has also created in my name.
His blog however offers no evidence for any of his claims or any true critique of my work
I would think you would appreciate a chance to say your side of this, as presumably you don't have this opprotunity in other places Tepol is placing these allegations.
So I found it a bit odd that you seem so anxious to get anything to do with you removed from " research needed".
But what i find even odder is some of the comments you made defending that email you suggest was a forgery ....
Ross
4. More fundamentally, irrespective of whatever Tepol has written in my name, I can only say again that The Four Gates has no record of any communication from him and so it is most unlikely that I or anyone else would have written such an email to him in response.
Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.
It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.
Um wait a second... If Tepol just made that email with all the f words up, how could it be in response to anything ? You mean he wrote an email to himself complaining your services weren't provided for free and then he responded by writting himself an angry email back . if that is what happened I have to agree with you, the person does sound like a nut !
Ross
I can well understand, therefore, why anyone would be infuriated by ignorance on such a grand scale as Tepol's and what appears to be a demand from him or a belief in his own right to get all of this for nothing, including all of the shamans' time and two weeks of healing and ceremonies.
Thats very understanding of you to sympathize with Tepol writting angry emails to himself and then thinking he is you and replying ...
Ross
While I emphasise once more that we have no knowledge of any communication to us from Tepol (by whatever name) and certainly no record of writing the email reply that appears at his fake 'Ross Heaven' blog site from his fake 'Ross Heaven' email address, I might in fact retain his apparently equally fake message because it does, more or less, express my views on the matter and is therefore a cut-and-paste response I might send to anyone who genuinely contacts me expecting something for nothing and who, through this, would cheat genuine shamans and healers out of income for their own gain.
Gee if you like that email that much , I guess your only complaint was that Tepol posted your name in research needed and accused you of being afraid of not having enough money. Ross if you like that email that much , those are pretty frivolous accusations Tepol made.
Why are you seeming so anxious to get this removed?
And aren't you concerned if you copy and paste that email you say you didn't write to send to other annoying people , wouldn't that be plagerism... I guess not .... LOL
Another thing I am wondering about that seems a bit odd, is you have written a couple books which you claim were intended to teach about some aspects of other cultures
Reply #8
Ross
I had an interest in vodou since my degree (psychology, anthropology, etc) where we studied it and I was struck by the lack of real information on it and also the fear (or prejudice) surrounding what I took to be a more-or-less 'standard' shamanic practice. Some years later I was invited (for a price of course, which I was happy to pay) to initiate (kanzo) with Racine. I decided to do so out of interest not because of any burning desire to become a priest.
So this person Racine was one of your main sources of information?
Ross
I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable. But then again all traditions (perhaps especially vodou which is very adaptable) do evolve and those within them will also develop their own style of practice, so I was disinclined to make judgements at that time.
That was in 2000
My book Vodou Shaman came out in 2003
So you got involved with someone you were told was a fraud and in your own experience was pretty questionable , and you used your expereinces with this person as part of the basis of a book you wrote which you say was intended to " to get away from the prejudice I'd encountered in my university studies and make vodou accessible and understandable as a shamanic practice to a Western audience. That's all."
Why did you feel it was OK to use information coming from someone you didn't think was entirely legit as a source ?
Ross
and to coincide with it I organised a trip to Haiti for a group of Westerners to experience vodou ceremonies and learn more about its practices. This was not an initiation journey.
During it, however, Racine was very badly behaved and seemed to exhibit qualities of mental illness, just as I'd heard.
I got everyone safely out
So, other people were endangered by being brought into contact with someone who you say was mentally unbalanced...
Racine's reason for allegedly stripping my rank has usually been that I "revealed the secrets of vodou" in my book. However, she has not been able to name a single secret revealed
If Racine stripped you of your rank it sounds like she was your main teacher?
Ross
Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti
I guess if they weren't a lot of information in your book would be questionable.... As it stands i guess only some of it would be?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vodou-Shaman-Haitian-Healing-Power/dp/089281134X.
Product Description
Review
"Ross Heaven does for Vodou what Castaneda did for shamanism. With so many sacred ways and cultures dying out, it is wonderful that one of the world's oldest oral traditions is recorded here by an authentic wisdomkeeper."
Apparently I am not the only person to wonder about this...
4 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars vodou what???, 22 Mar 2008
By Kalfu (Savannah, Georgia) - See all my reviews
Ross Heaven is surely an interesting character! He has written quite a number of books on shamanism and healing - but Vodou Shaman is definitely not among the greatest! I don't have the expertise to criticise his other works, but there is something about Vodou Shaman that just doesn't click!
Ross Heaven has been initiated by a woman called Mambo Racine a couple of years back. Now he claims she is a fraud, that the initiations she performs are bogus and the knowledge she transmits to other people is not even worth mentioning - and indeed his claims are supported by 99% of the vodou community around the world!
But hey...he still claims to be a valid hougan, fully and truly initiated in Haitian Vodou? This makes no sense at all! If he was initiated by a fraud, then he is not truly initiated! If what his teacher taught him is bogus , then what he passes on as "vodou knowledge" is in turn also bogus! How can he still look at himself in the mirror and claim to be a "vodou hougan" if he knows that what he got in his initiation is not the real deal? Has he ever attempted to fix the situation by actually becoming a valid initiate of a true vodou house? No...he still claims that all is well but that the problem is with his initiator and not with him! All the people who have praised his book so much...are they actually initiated in vodou or are they just glad that someone wrote a book about the topic, no matter how genuine it is?
Am I the only one who raises these questions? Am I the only one who sees one "vodou fraud" accusing another? This is very simple, black or white stuff! Is Ross Heaven a hougan? No! Does he write about vodou with the knowledge of an initiate? No! As simple as that!
http://store.innertraditions.com/isbn/978-0-89281-134-2;jsessionid=358B4F497AF6C8C4599192F171C7F3A8
about Vodou Shaman
Goes beyond the stereotypes to restore Vodou to its proper place as a powerful shamanic tradition
• Provides practical exercises and techniques from the Vodou tradition that can be used as safe and effective means of spiritual healing and personal transformation
• Shows how to remove evil spirits and negative energies sent by others
• Written by a fully initiated Houngan (Vodou shaman)
Providing practical exercises drawn from all aspects and stages of the Vodou tradition, Vodou Shaman shows readers how to contact the spirit world and communicate with the loa (the angel-like inhabitants of the Other World), the ghede (the spirits of the ancestors), and djabs (nature spirits for healing purposes). The author examines soul journeying and warrior-path work in the Vodou tradition and looks at the psychological principles that make them effective. The book also includes exercises to protect the spiritual self by empowering the soul, with techniques of soul retrieval, removing evil spirits and negative energies, overcoming curses, and using the powers of herbs and magical baths.
About the Author(s) of Vodou Shaman
Ross Heaven is a shamanic teacher and Vodou Houngan who spent years as an initiate in this tradition, including spending the requisite time in solitary vigil and performing the other necessary rituals to complete his apprenticeship. He is also the author of The Journey to You and Spirit in the City. He lives in England.
Apparently Ross wrote another book which was co authored by Simon Buxton - who Ross also distanced himself from ...
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=370.0
Reply #5 on: February 25, 2006,
An interesting development on this in the form of a review at Amazon, supposedly from Ross Heaven, about a book he has written with (or, by the sound of this, for) Buxton.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594770611/ref=pd_sbs_b_2/104-1300063-4042362?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
From the author, February 24, 2006
Reviewer: Ross Heaven (UK) - See all my reviews
For legal reasons I would like to make clear that I no longer work with or am associated with Simon Buxton, who is listed as my co-author on this book. Nor do I do endorse his work.
Mr Buxton contributed fewer than 15 pages to Darkness Visible (I am including his dedications and the comments he makes about himself on the Resources page within this total, as well as the 5 pages that are taken up with his preface). These pages arrived in the form of scattered paragraphs to be inserted into the already-written text, and not as sustained commentary. Of the 27 exercises in the book, Mr Buxton contributed one, a practice which does not (and, indeed, cannot) take place in darkness. Darkness Visible does not, therefore, contain any substantial work on Mr Buxton's part.
Despite Mr Buxton's marginal involvement in this book, he has, regrettably, decided to run workshops based on its contents. This concerns me greatly as I consider it misleading and unsafe for readers to participate in such events in the belief that Mr Buxton contributed substance to Darkness Visible and its exercises and therefore has experience of teaching these exercises on such courses. He does not.
Darkness Visible, furthermore, contains process-based practices which Mr Buxton did not originate and, once again, has no experience of teaching. He does not have my permission to use these exercises and I do not endorse any practices he has derived from them, for the reasons I have stated.
I encourage readers to apply caution and good sense before committing to any event led by any facilitator who has limited experience in the exercises that are being taught or the work these exercises are derived from. Please put your physical and emotional well-being first in deciding whether such an event is safe and right for you.
Ross Heaven
If this was ever in Amazon it isn't there now
There is a thread on Simon Buxton here
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=530.0
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=304.0
As Ross explains above, it sounds like one of the authors of this book was giving workshops . However, these workshops were not only happening after this book was co-written with Simon, they were happening before , as this book is said to contain excerpts of peoples personal accounts of participating in these workshops,
http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Awakening-Spiritual-Meditation/dp/1594770611
The text is based in part on excerpts from various people who have participated in the authors' "Darkness Visible" workshops
.Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Most Helpful Customer Reviews
9 of 12 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars This book is Heaven, March 2, 2007
By Jennifer E. Fisher - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I have not written many reviews but this book was a wonderful surprise. I borrowed it and have had a hard time giving it back until I get my own copy! I especially like the exercises that allow you to explore and practice on a small scale and see the wisdom gained by this spiritual practice. Highly recommended!
Many pages from this book are available through google books . Reffernces to Simon Buxton as a coworker in leading these workshops and references to Shamnism of various types is mentioned throughout the book
http://books.google.ca/books?id=dWPFNteF4ecC&dq=Darkness+Visible+Ross+heaven&printsec=frontco
ver&source=bn&hl=en&ei=5NTOSZCHOZjItAO1vuWhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPR14,
M1 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=dWPFNteF4ecC&dq=Darkness+Visible+Ross+heaven&printsec=frontco
ver&source=bn&hl=en&ei=5NTOSZCHOZjItAO1vuWhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPR14,
M1)
I did a search for 'workshop'
from the forward
As gifted story tellers Ross and Simon do a brilliant job of inspiring us to learn more about the power of darkness. The blend cross cultural stories of initiations in darkness from Europe, Africa, India, Japan, Tibet, North America, South America and hati with scintific findings of how darkness affects the brain . I am impressed with how they found a way to bring such a powerful initiation into our modren world. Throughout the book they weave excercises that they have used in their workshops on darkness and stories from the participants about the profound effect this work has had on their lives.
And they don't leave us "in the dark" as we can all try the execises on our own to awaken new states of awareness ......
Page xiv
They know how to set up a safe space for their workshop participants, which allows for this deep exploration into a new way of seeing.
Page 23
Darkness Visible Retreats
For a number of years we have run Darkness Visible retreats and workshops in which the participants live in total blackout for a period of five days or more . Their experiences suggest that darkness is potent as a means of accessing the infinite. just as it always has been and just as cash found it to be .
page 24 Shamans understand that anything seen in the darkness or with eyes closed is a message from the spirit, whatever we concieve this spirit to.
Page 24
The effects continue to manifest as I write this, weeks after the workshop finished, and I'm sure they will continue to do so. ...
Page 30 In our Darkness Visible retreats, the arrival of the blackout stage is quite evident . A hush descends on the room , which strangely seems to grow darker. The energy in the group changes . The calm of darkness seems contagious; we can actually watch it moving around the room , from person to person , like a sigh on a breath. As Bid ben Bid Bont, a Bee Master in the European initiatory Path of Pollen, has said, "Fruit ripens slowly but falls suddenly."
Page 45 I found my dreams and visions sometimes presaged the shcedualed work .
For instance, the night before we did work traveling forward in time to meet our future selves [one of the practices undertaken during the workshop], ...
Back cover e
ROSS HEAVEN is a therapist and workshop leader in personal development and healing whose books include Vodou Shaman, Spirit in the City and the journey to you ... Simon Buxton , author of the Shamanic Way of the Bee, is the founder/director of the Sacred trust in England , dedicated to the teaching of practical shaminism for the modren world. Both authors live in England and teach Darkness Visible workshops internationally.
and the general write up from google books
Darkness Visible
By Ross Heaven, Simon Buxton
The first book to examine the spiritual and therapeutic practice of retreat in physical darkness to explore inner light
• Shows how experiencing complete darkness over prolonged periods helps in developing mental clarity and creativity
• Draws upon many indigenous and spiritual traditions that use this technique
The use of ceremonial darkness is a classic and cross-cultural method for exploring hidden aspects of unconscious and super-conscious states, accessing invisible landscapes, and embracing the deeper recesses of the self. In Darkness Visible Heaven and Buxton examine the spiritual and therapeutic practice of taking retreat in physical darkness.
For millennia mystics and sages have used darkness as a spiritual tool for breaking with their pasts, prior conditioning, and the limited reality of their societies. Spiritual seekers from many traditions--Celtic, Eastern, indigenous North and South American, Tibetan, and African--have used darkness as a tool for spiritual enlightenment. Heaven and Buxton show how experiencing complete darkness, even for only a period of hours, brings about a remarkable clarity and mental stillness and thus provides a springboard for creativity, intuition, and spiritual development. They include exercises that explore lucid levels of dream consciousness, drawing both from their experience as teachers of this method and from the many cultures that include this practice in their spiritual traditions. Darkness Visible shows how deprivation of sight can truly teach us to see.
More details
Darkness Visible: Awakening Spiritual Light Through Darkness Meditation
By Ross Heaven, Simon Buxton
Published by Inner Traditions / Bear & Company, 2005
ISBN 1594770611, 9781594770616
168 pages
i also found this
http://www.amazon.com/Va-Va-Voodoo-Find-Love-Make-Keep/dp/0738709948/ref=sr_
1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-7 (http://www.amazon.com/Va-Va-Voodoo-Find-Love-Make-Keep/dp/0738709948/ref=sr_
1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-7)
Va-Va-Voodoo: Find Love, Make Love & Keep Love (Paperback)
by Kathleen Charlotte (Author), Ross Heaven (Foreword)
Editorial Reviews
Product Description
You've tried blind dates, online mates, tête-à-têtes, and waiting for fate. Maybe it's time to add a little Voodoo power to your quest for red-hot romance or lasting love.
With its emphasis on love and freedom, the passionate spiritual practice of Voodoo has much to offer those seeking romance. In Va-Va-Voodoo, author Kathleen Charlotte provides a unique and potent blend of Voodoo magic (or wanga) and relationship expertise.
You'll meet a few of Voodoo's most helpful spirits in matters of love and happiness-Erzulie, Ogoun, La Sirène, Baron, and Legba-and learn how to work with their energy to attract a lover, find "the one," keep a relationship steamy, or recover from heartbreak. Along with down-to-earth relationship tips on communication, self-esteem, intimacy, sex, break-ups, and forgiveness, Va-Va-Voodoo includes a colorful array of tried-and-true Voodoo magical wisdom and spells, including:
• Honey pot magic • Love rituals • Herbal aphrodisiacs
• Voodoo dreaming baths • Pakets and mojos • Love dolls
• Hoodoo love oils • Footprint magic • Crossroads magic
About the Author
Initiated in the healing arts of Voodoo, Kathleen Charlotte (United Kingdom) is a therapist, healer, and relationship counselor who combines psychology and Voodoo magic to help clients. She is also a co-founder of The Four Gates Foundation, an organization devoted to the teaching and promotion of spiritual wisdom and freedom psychology.
By Ms. Katherine Glover "kathsrealm" - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I wasn't expecting much when I picked up this title. The author is a close friend of Ross Heaven who wrote the abortion that is 'Vodou Shaman' and the cover screams tacky.
I was pleasantly surprised to find a range of magical techniques that would be useful to women (and men!) in a variety of love situations. (con..)
http://www.amazon.com/Journey-You-Shamans-Path-Empowerment/dp/0553813234/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=
books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-9 (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-You-Shamans-Path-Empowerment/dp/0553813234/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=
books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-9)
The Journey to You a Shaman's Path to Empowerment
By A Customer
This is an example of a yet another would be "shaman" who thinks that visions obtained from the hallucinogenic tea brewed from Banisteriopsis qualifies them to teach us mortals about medicine work. Nothing could be further from truth.
Ayahuasca is a magnificent plant. The spirit of this plant is a demanding, exacting, tempestuous and awesome teacher. An ayahuasca shaman devotes his life to studying the vine; he/she apprentices for decades to one or several maestros. There are very few legitimate Western mediators of plant teachings and Ross is not one of them - you do not become an ayahuascero through a weekend visit to Peru or Ecuador. In this book we more or less get insights obtained by a sincere and dedicated tourist. If interested in listening to a true ayahuascero, try to obtain the music from Don Jose Campos.
I'm not sure what to think of all this. Hmmmmm
-
Well, allow me to say what I think of it all moma_p?
It has nothing at all to do with a discussion of ayahuasca! :'(
Hence, it sort of, again, proves my point that a new thread is needed which is genuinely about ayahuasca and ethics.
That is what this one purports to be but clearly it is not. It continues to be a place where old, dealt-with and new unrelated material is being dug up about me rather than ayahuasca and so has no relevance whatsoever to the subject of the thread.
I am sure that, as an academic, educatedindian must surely now see the problem and will want to clear things up by creating a new thread.
As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.
Now, if you would like my comments on ayahuasca, which is what this thread should be about, well you know what to do.
If not, well I have already told you publicly and privately that I do not feel as if I must answer to you about what I do, and also that I am finding it time-consuming and tedious to continue to go over old ground. So please take this as my final post on this matter - or my final post altogether if you prefer - since I am now offering you a straight choice:
If you want to discuss ayahuasca, please create an appropriate thread and let's do it. Or I am happy to leave you to your own research - about ayahuasca, vodou, me, my relationships or whatever else you find stimulating.
I'll add that I''m delighted and very flattered that you find me fascinating enough to take such an interest in me and to spend what I am sure is your precious time 'researching' me at Amazon and other learned sources but as you'll appreciate, the subject of 'me' is not very interesting to me - since I am me and therefore know myself very well!
Ayahuasca, though, that is a fascinating subject - and one which, despite the title of this thread we still have not got around to, sadly; thanks to posts like these.
Best wishes
Ross
-
As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.
Ross , I guess you are free to interpret that PM I sent any way you want ... and as i sent this PM before I did most the research posted last night, but when you were aware what was out there, I suppose this may have seemed more threatening to you at the time than is was intended by me. But as you are publicly accusing me of saying things that are your own interpretation, I guess I should post that PM so people can see for themselves what kind of so called "threats" i made.
The PM I sent was cced to Al and read as follows
being listed in research needed
« Sent to: Ross on: March 27, 2009, 06:57:55 AM »
« Bcc: educatedindian »
Reply with quoteQuote ReplyReply Remove this messageRemove
You know Ross , you seem like a pretty reasonable person and i respect that, and we all make mistakes and if we can admit it and then we learn and move on , and I REALLY respect that - having made many mistakes myself. However, you have written 2 books which were either written by or based on your work with people who you yourself say are frauds. Now you say you know the difference and can guide others. Maybe this is true, but being listed in research needed doesn't mean you are a fraud, and as someone who has recently worked with people you thought were legit but now turn out to be frauds, I'm not sure I see you as a victim being mentioned in research needed.
To be blunt, you complaining about it , now the title of the thread has been changed and good things have been said about you doesn't improve my opinion of you.
There is also a thread in NAFPS mentioning your working with Simon Buxton
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=370.0
Ross you seem like a responsible and reasonable person but if you have in the past supported frauds, and used them to support your own published work - even after being told they were frauds - I don't see why NAFPS should be expected to cover up some mistakes you have made and i don't see why you feel offended to be listed in research needed when good things have been said about you there.
I also noticed and thought it was a bit odd that after you said you did not write the email posted by Tepol you felt compelled to defend what was said in this email you say you never wrote.
Reply #4
Ross
Quote
Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.
It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.
Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be
.
It did make me wonder a bit. At the moment I am not bringing this up publicly, as i don't want to embarrass you if I can avoid it, but I have to tell you privately that people don't usually defend an email that was forged in their name ...
IMO anybody doing the work you do needs to be researched before people decide to get involved . This message board encourages people to think and ask questions . People who are honest and have nothing to hide have nothing to fear from being researched as it just brings up good things.
That you yourself have been involved with frauds simply underlines the importance of asking questions.
Not offence intended and i hope we can continue to communicate in a mutually respectful way.
Take care
You posted your reply quoted below.
Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:
Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.
Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.
I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.
I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.
To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.
I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.
Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.
I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.
Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.
That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.
Best wishes
Ross
That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.
Ross
( my bold)
So, on one hand you are suggesting sending you a PM and trying not to embarrass you was "secertive" of me, and everything should be out in the open, but now you are accusing the same PM of being a "threat" to expose you. I'm not sure how you could honestly interpret it to be both....?
I guess we all see things differently
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Well, allow me to say what I think of it all moma_p?
It has nothing at all to do with a discussion of ayahuasca! :'(
Hence, it sort of, again, proves my point that a new thread is needed which is genuinely about ayahuasca and ethics.
That is what this one purports to be but clearly it is not. It continues to be a place where old, dealt-with and new unrelated material is being dug up about me rather than ayahuasca and so has no relevance whatsoever to the subject of the thread.
I am sure that, as an academic, educatedindian must surely now see the problem and will want to clear things up by creating a new thread.
As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.
Now, if you would like my comments on ayahuasca, which is what this thread should be about, well you know what to do.
If not, well I have already told you publicly and privately that I do not feel as if I must answer to you about what I do, and also that I am finding it time-consuming and tedious to continue to go over old ground. So please take this as my final post on this matter - or my final post altogether if you prefer - since I am now offering you a straight choice:
If you want to discuss ayahuasca, please create an appropriate thread and let's do it. Or I am happy to leave you to your own research - about ayahuasca, vodou, me, my relationships or whatever else you find stimulating.
I'll add that I''m delighted and very flattered that you find me fascinating enough to take such an interest in me and to spend what I am sure is your precious time 'researching' me at Amazon and other learned sources but as you'll appreciate, the subject of 'me' is not very interesting to me - since I am me and therefore know myself very well!
Ayahuasca, though, that is a fascinating subject - and one which, despite the title of this thread we still have not got around to, sadly; thanks to posts like these.
Best wishes
Ross
I'm thinking this thread needs to be retitled. Maybe it should go back to its original title . . . Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ? Not sure about the 'love guru' part. I'm not feeling the love in Heaven's last few posts.
Thanks for the additional research, Moma. Guess there was more Research Needed. This is what I was talking about, when threads are moved to Non-Frauds before adequate research has been done.
As I said yesterday:
If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread.
Although, in hindsight, I really don't see the need for another thread. Ayauasca has been discussed here before and I think the general consensus is that it is not ours to appropriate. This medicine belongs to the people of South America, not the world.
Looks like any discussion of Ross Heaven is going to encompass more than ayahuasca; it needs to include Voodoo, Darkness, and all the other things Heaven has dabbled in.
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OK, no problemo. I'll leave you to it then.
I did come to this forum open to suggestions and willing to learn from anyone who had anything positive and constructive to say so that I might be able to improve the trips I run to Peru for all concerned - the shamans, the centres, and the participants - and I'd like to thank educatedindian for the one good suggestion that has arisen in all these various posts. I'd like to have heard more positive suggestions like that from you and I've made the change to the information document I provide to participants which your idea did bring up.
I'd also like to apologise to those who have expressed a genuine interest in discussing ayahuasca but, as I think you can see, this thread is really going nowhere so it seems pointless to pursue it here. If anyone would like more information on the subject, however, please feel free to email me privately and there may be articles I can send you or questions I can answer, which I'm happy to do in a more constructive and less confused space.
As for the group as a whole, I think you have a great opportunity, based on the wisdom and experience of the more intelligent people here, to really develop the forum, as I said before, not just as a bed of critics who believe they should be "answered to" and which thinks it can identify "frauds" from a distance by recycling age-old material and hearsay, into one which is constructive and positive and adds something of value to the world by acting in an advisory capacity to help develop 'best practice' and serve the cause of evolution. I hope that, as a whole, you choose that path one day as I believe it could be useful and I have seen that there are some people here of good heart who are willing to learn - and to teach - and to attempt to build bridges through understanding.
For those people - and for those who would prefer a narrower and more negative focus (perhaps more especially for the latter) - I wish you all great fortune, success, and joy in your lives. Enjoy your 'research'! ;D
My very best wishes
Ross
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NAFPS has been discussing ayahuasca and those that promote its use for several years. Here are a few of the links I found when I did a search:
Howard Lawler (2005/2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=145.0
Leo Rutherford (2005)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=246.0
Pablo Russell (2006)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=574.0
SpiritPathPeru.com (2006/2007)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=990.0
What do you know about Don Pedro Guerra Gonzales? (2007)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1050.0
Ayahuasca (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1524.0
Aurora Baha AKA Francis de la Maza AKA Wolf Seven Thunders (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1597.0
Cross cultural CATCH-22 (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1512.0
Plastic Shaman On All Deaf (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1876.0
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Despite Ross's melodramatic claim, the only "threat" on this thread came from him, though I stress it's not a threat of doing harm to anyone. Basically, him demanding "Do what I want or I won't talk to you."
Even before Moma P's last post, I was pretty convinced there was no way to disentangle the thread into two topics. So many posts overlapped, and Ross was offering his opinion (and being asked about it) using his own operation as an example repeatedly.
Ross, since I believe you are likely continuing to read the topic, even if you now are in a fit and refuse to talk, there's a couple final points to you, even as this thread will continue to discuss and have research done:
You make too much about me saying I didn't consider you a fraud, as did the sockpuppets who came in to spam and disrupt. My opinion is never the final word on anything in here. I'm only one mod of five, and one poster of hundreds. NAFPS has always been a collective cooperative forum.
I also found it strange you'd want any mention of Tepol's smear of you deleted, since anyone looking at the thread will see there's not anything to what s/he said.
On another note, squid/RDR never explained their multiple sockpuppet IDs. The mods had given "them" the benefit of the doubt. (They're not even banned from the forum, just from posting unless they IM a mod with a valid explanation.) But when "they" started to answer each other, we could see their purpose was to create an impression of multiple people calling for removal of anything critical about Ross. More and more it looked like "they" were one of Ross's supporters incensed that anyone even dare question what he does.
I repeat what I said earlier: I would not put Heaven in the same category as a fraud like Lynn Andrews, etc, but I have concerns and questions about what he does. Even if Moma P had not found additional things that are worrisome, the whole question of ethics surrounding ayahuasca/drub tourism remain.
Yes, ayahuasca is a drug, just as peyote is. What can make them both sacraments are how people of the faith use them, and plenty of casual users take these drugs into their bodies in the wrong way, no different than dropping acid or eating 'shrooms.
Thread retitled again.
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With respect i agree with Barnaby,tell us Tepol,do you still have this "original e mail" you sent Ross Heaven
which warranted such an eliquent (not) outburst and can we see it please so we all get a rounded view of
your problem with this individual?.
Hello - Sorry for my delay in responding .
I may still have the original in my mailbox, but even if I did it would still require fullproof evidence and a probable lengthy court proceedure / cost on my part to trace the location of the IP address he used at the time. ( provided it was at his headquaters or home and not some cyber cafe for example )
Ross himself has history of semmingly " pissing off " peers he has been associated with , which in itself should tell you something .
You can see for yourself where Ross ( now Kate ) bemoans my original post on my blog by trying to defend his would be benefactor ( who of course is himself )
http://www.spiritgarden.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1450&sid=668648e1893e8b5adc0384736a76768e&start=30
hope this helps
tepol
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" I repeat what I said earlier: I would not put Heaven in the same category as a fraud like Lynn Andrews, etc, but I have concerns and questions about what he does. Even if Moma P had not found additional things that are worrisome, the whole question of ethics surrounding ayahuasca/drub tourism remain. "
greetings,
I thought id update this thread ( please note Ross is - or was also married man )
Though these pictures mostly appear old, from my humble perspective it does little to enhance overall shamanic community when seen in this perspective as little more than a " swingers club " for one would-be shaman, namely Ross.
You can see for yourself what I mean on his facebook ( http://www.facebook.com/ross.heaven?sk=photos ) profile pics / gallery .
I make no judgements , but its hard for me to see how this perception of himself conveys any sense of knowledge about anything other than flirting with women.
tepol
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tepol
It seems to me that you are considering the photos of Mr Heaven's facebook page from the position of a person more acquainted with the traditional and conservative values of tribal people, the lives and values of whom have nothing to do with the values and lifestyles chosen by people like Mr Heaven.
IME the people who declare themselves to be "shamans" via their websites and FB pages typically embrace newage lifestyles and values that include polyamory, "tantra" and a mix and blend of taoism, santeria, neo-paganism, conspiracy theories, crystals and whatever else they fancy.
While it is interesting to notice the discrepancy between the values and lifestyles of real shamans and medicine people and newagers, the newagers will never really take much notice of your concerns and are likely to dismiss them as you being overly conservative and / or a prude.
People like Heaven are surrounded by adoring groupies and sycophants who bolster their guru's ego and consolidate their shared delusion of spirchuality with endless sex, drugs, rituals and crystal waving.
Sadly the voices of native people and those who are concerned about cultural appropriation are not heard by those who are too busy partying (and bringing in the $$$) to listen to a message that they don't really want to hear.
Just my 2p worth
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tepol
It seems to me that you are considering the photos of Mr Heaven's facebook page from the position of a person more acquainted with the traditional and conservative values of tribal people, the lives and values of whom have nothing to do with the values and lifestyles chosen by people like Mr Heaven.
IME the people who declare themselves to be "shamans" via their websites and FB pages typically embrace newage lifestyles and values that include polyamory, "tantra" and a mix and blend of taoism, santeria, neo-paganism, conspiracy theories, crystals and whatever else they fancy.
While it is interesting to notice the discrepancy between the values and lifestyles of real shamans and medicine people and newagers, the newagers will never really take much notice of your concerns and are likely to dismiss them as you being overly conservative and / or a prude.
People like Heaven are surrounded by adoring groupies and sycophants who bolster their guru's ego and consolidate their shared delusion of spirchuality with endless sex, drugs, rituals and crystal waving.
Sadly the voices of native people and those who are concerned about cultural appropriation are not heard by those who are too busy partying (and bringing in the $$$) to listen to a message that they don't really want to hear.
Just my 2p worth
I think your right , and Im quite sure Ross is aware of this himelf, which is probably explains why hes decided to reveal all these photos now in their glory rather than concealing them as he did.
However, I would not put Ross in the class of guru or being able to manipulate the energy of those around him to the degrees other true gurus could , though I suppose with some it takes little beyond the type of flattery you could just as easily find in any bar or pub, who doesn't like to hear their special ?
tepol
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"I did come to this forum open to suggestions and willing to learn from anyone who had anything positive and constructive to say so that I might be able to improve the trips I run to Peru for all concerned"
To me this sounds very self serving. I also find this to be arrogant:
"As for the group as a whole, I think you have a great opportunity, based on the wisdom and experience of the more intelligent people here, to really develop the forum, as I said before, not just as a bed of critics who believe they should be "answered to" and which thinks it can identify "frauds" from a distance by recycling age-old material and hearsay, into one which is constructive and positive and adds something of value to the world by acting in an advisory capacity to help develop 'best practice' and serve the cause of evolution."
Why should native people serve in an advisory capacity to people misrepresenting native traditions? So that Ross and others can then trot out, again and again as he has done here, that one or some native people think he is not a fraud, or have advised him? No, the purpose of this forum is point out frauds from a distance. If the world of plastic shamans does not then evolve, oh well.