Author Topic: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012  (Read 92064 times)

Offline flyingdust

  • Posts: 26
2012 Time to Make New Order Resolutions
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 07:55:59 am »
I predict Merle Haggard's song "If We Make It Through December" will be a big hit in 2012, lol!

I'm a Cree from Canada.  Hello everybody.  I saw the movie 2012 and I was disappointed and unenlightened.  This whole big scaremongering going on is all about one of the greatest achievements made by our Indigenous American ancestors – the Mayan Calendar.  This calendar accurately marked significant 5,000 year cycles of orders stretching deep into the past and far into the future.  Yet the Mayan calendar only got about a 30 second mention in the whole movie.    It would’ve' been nice if the movie began with a dramatic scene of ancient Mayan astronomers and mathematicians (played by NDN actors) creating this remarkable calendar and marking 2012 as a significant millennial event. Ah, but what do you expect.

I've been interested in the Mayan calendar system for over 20 years, and to be perfectly honest, it remains to one of the greatest mysteries in the world.  If anybody know for sure about it, it would be the Mayans, and that knowledge likely belongs to a few Mayan families...and they’re not about to tell the world anytime soon.   All the media hype that's going on now is just more pure speculation, concocted mainly by nuagers and opportunists out to turn a profit from our history and culture.  And it's just going to get worse in months to come as we approach 2012.  Did you hear time is speeding up?

On the positive side, we can use 2012 as a time we can make resolutions like we do on New Year’s Eve.  Our resolutions can include what personal commitments we can make in the new order to come to make this a better world to live in for the benefit of our future generations.  That's what our traditional peoples always ask for in their prayers.   ::)

Re: 2012 Time to Make New Order Resolutions
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 03:17:55 pm »
I love the mystery of it.  I think people are nuts with/about it.  Each cycle on the calendar has an end.  Maybe the 2012 end is because they up and left and didn't finish or start a new one .. maybe as simple as that they ran out of room on where they were making it and never got starting on continuation before they left.  No one knows. 

I find more interesting than the calendar that they up and left without a trace.  Obviously not all, as there are descendants..
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 09:00:49 pm »
mod note - merged new thread into already-existing discussion.

Offline Unegv Waya

  • Posts: 86
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 05:47:24 pm »
The whole thing about the poles shifting their polarity is based upon some very wrong assumptions.  Yes, the poles were in different locations many, many eons ago but that has to do with the speed an rotational direction of our mother's molten iron core. It had nothing to do with her suddenly rearranging her lands and waters.
nvwatohiyadv

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 11:37:11 pm »
Each cycle on the calendar has an end.  Maybe the 2012 end is because they up and left and didn't finish or start a new one .. maybe as simple as that they ran out of room on where they were making it and never got starting on continuation before they left.  No one knows.

Cultures the world over have their own calendars. One peoples' year is ending while anothers' is in the middle. One calendar is having nothing special happening, while another has "ended" because the people died out or assimilated. In rural areas it can seem like we all agree what is the new year, while in an American city, the dragon is dancing down the street in Chinatown while other people prayed in the park months ago, or will months in the future. Fireworks all year round.  We all have our beginnings and endings, our points in the cycle. No one culture has claim on the definitive beginning and ending, and many of us see time as eternal.

Slàinte Mhath.

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2010, 08:40:34 am »
Yes, that is what I mean.  You said it better.  Some of us don't see time as really existing.. I think it was Einstein who stated that time existed only so that everything doesn't happen all at once.  :D

I like the "idea" of a change for this world though, but I suppose most people do.  The difference is that I don't believe anyone knows When, or even and most importantly IF.

One has to live with where they are in now, not in some idealized notion that imaginations have taken flight with. 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2010, 11:36:15 pm »
I think it was Einstein who stated that time existed only so that everything doesn't happen all at once.  :D

Or so people don't go crazy.  :o

Quote
I like the "idea" of a change for this world though, but I suppose most people do. 

Yeah, most people can tell the world is pretty screwed up these days. I think the challenge is for people to apply that desire for change in a good way; to do the hard work in a grounded, realistic way rather than looking to frauds and sham gurus for a quick fix.

And I think even those in mainstream culture who weren't raised Christian have been affected by Christian ideas of apocalypse. Whether it be meteors or angels of revelation or the loosed wolves of Fenris... it's far more dramatic and sexy than things just continuing and it being up to us to do something about it.

Offline flyingdust

  • Posts: 26
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 09:59:38 am »
Quote
And I think even those in mainstream culture who weren't raised Christian have been affected by Christian ideas of apocalypse. Whether it be meteors or angels of revelation or the loosed wolves of Fenris... it's far more dramatic and sexy than things just continuing and it being up to us to do something about it.

Good point.  I often thought of that same thing. Mainstream Native Americans (me included) have been so pervasively influenced by Western thought and tradition.  We even speak about our Native American culture and worldview in their language - English - and not in, say, Cree or Mayan.  It's no wonder we really don't know what and how the Mayans think or thought about life.  We can only speculate.  Time is a Western concept, but the Mayans probably had and still do have a concept of time that's totally different from the way we understand it.  So every prophesy about 2012 cooked up in movies, on the Internet, and by self-help gurus are fraudulent and arrogant misinterpretations of the Mayan Calendar and of the Mayan people and their culture. 

Still, we have the right to wonder and explore the mysteries of the Mayan calendar system, and this can only seriously be done through proper and respectful research.  The first step would be to learn the Mayan language and ask the Mayans themselves.  The second step may be to go to the research done by Western academia.  After all, to seriously learn about any culture in the world, say, French or German, you have to first learn the languages of those cultures.  Why should this be any different for the Native American cultures?   Try handing in an essay written in English into a German university, for example.  You’ll be laughed at first, and then summarily kicked out.  I think if we're really going to do something about this 2012 question, then we should start from this resarch approach.  8)

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 04:06:48 pm »
I don't believe in permanence.  I agree with the belief that everything is impermanent.  But, change doesn't equate to mass annihilation either.  Or a complete throw over of everything. 

I have no clue what that Mayan calendar represents, as it is foreign and from a foreign culture that I have no understanding of.

Why some people need to believe in their own demise, I don't know.  Perhaps it's psychological on a mass scale.  If a singular person is told from birth they are not worthy, they tend to become self destructive, or have self destructive tendencies.  Why wouldn't this be the same in a mass belief system where people are taught they are not worthy?  It's one thing to feel humbled with the knowledge or understanding of something like the Creator, or Spirit, or God, and quite another to feel unworthy and groveling for acceptance. 

I think it's good to have mystery in our lives.  I like the idea that the calendar brings a  mystery into life.  But I'm not one who feels a need to go and resolve it, and/or attach annihilation beliefs to it.  I prefer to let it be what it is to me, a mystery. It could be anything and nothing.. or something..

Well, I'm just sort of rambling around here.  I do believe that some change will come in life, but I don't attach it to the calendar..  maybe it will coincide, maybe not..  to me, it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't.  What matters to me is just that at some point, life changes.  Whether it will be drastic with Earth changing face a bit here and there, or the falling of some nations and economies.. therefore changing the 'power structure' of the world.. or disease that revamps the populations.  Or, even, a new technology..  change doesn't have to be a negative.  But, nothing remains the same, things change.

What gets me is these people acting like it's the end of the world.  Do they really think that if some very drastic and huge change occurred, that people would just roll over and die?  We are not stupid.  I'm fairly certain that if something drastic happened, we'd have the electricity running again pretty quickly..  :)

Of course, there is also the other side of this.. that belief is what will create it. If a billion people believe California is going to fall off into the ocean, then why wouldn't it with a billion people 'intending' it to take place?  It's the statement of "careful what you wish for.. "

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline flyingdust

  • Posts: 26
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 07:38:55 am »
What’s going to happen here is the nuagers are really going to run with this Mayan cultural symbol and exploit it to the max, cranking it up evermore as 2012 approaches. They'll be really raking in the dough and laughing all the way to the bank. Their geometric domed sweats and pipe ceremonies are going to be bursting at the seams with people seeking salvation.

Let them make their money with our traditional symbols and sacred structure.  It will never get them any closer to Spirit and essence of our culture, but only further away.  They seem to be only fixated with the physical forms of our spiritual traditions, without Power and Spirit.

Even back in the seventies nuagers roamed the continent imitating our ways, fooling around with Native American ceremonies and concepts they knew nothing about.  An old and knowledgeable Anishnabe friend of mine (who is no longer with us) used to refer to them as wannabes, show boaters, overnight wonders, and culture vultures.

We have our share of nuagers in Canada, many claiming to be pipe carriers, sweat holders, healers, and clan mothers.  And they're all jumping on this 2012 prophecy band wagon.  But what's going on in the states with these people, I'm finding from reading the posts in this forum, is appalling and amazing and sad.  :(

Offline Unegv Waya

  • Posts: 86
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 07:00:45 pm »
Let them make their money with our traditional symbols and sacred structure.  It will never get them any closer to Spirit and essence of our culture, but only further away.  They seem to be only fixated with the physical forms of our spiritual traditions, without Power and Spirit.

Well said!
nvwatohiyadv

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 11:38:20 pm »
Ceremony not done by a Spirit filled Elder is not worth dirt it has no power. "LOM"
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2010, 08:00:41 pm »
The whole thing about the poles shifting their polarity is based upon some very wrong assumptions.  Yes, the poles were in different locations many, many eons ago but that has to do with the speed an rotational direction of our mother's molten iron core. It had nothing to do with her suddenly rearranging her lands and waters.

Might find this interesting regarding magnetic pole reversal and history of..

http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/reversals.html

What do we mean by a magnetic reversal or a magnetic 'flip' of the Earth?
The Earth has a magnetic field, as can be seen by using a magnetic compass. It is mainly generated in the very hot molten core of the planet and has probably existed throughout most of the Earth's lifetime. The magnetic field is largely that of a dipole, by which we mean that it has one North pole and one South pole. At these places, a compass needle will point straight down, or up, respectively. It is often described as being similar in nature to the field of a bar (e.g. fridge) magnet. However there is much small-scale variation in the Earth's field, which is quite different from that of a bar magnet. In any event, we can say that there are currently two poles observed on the surface of the Earth, one in the Northern hemisphere and one in the Southern hemisphere.

By magnetic reversal, or 'flip', we mean the process by which the North pole is transformed into a South pole and the South pole becomes a North pole. Interestingly, the magnetic field may sometimes only undergo an 'excursion', rather than a reversal. Here, it suffers a large decrease in its overall strength, that is, the force that moves the compass needle. During an excursion the field does not reverse, but later regenerates itself with the same polarity, that is, North remains North and South remains South.

Back to the top.

How often do reversals occur?
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years, there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals occurred. Reversals are not predictable and are certainly not periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average reversal interval.

Back to the top.

Is the Earth's magnetic field reversing now? How do we know?
Measurements have been made of the Earth's magnetic field more or less continuously since about 1840. Some measurements even go back to the 1500s, for example at Greenwich in London. If we look at the trend in the strength of the magnetic field over this time (for example the so-called 'dipole moment' shown in the graph below) we can see a downward trend. Indeed projecting this forward in time would suggest zero dipole moment in about 1500-1600 years time. This is one reason why some people believe the field may be in the early stages of a reversal. We also know from studies of the magnetisation of minerals in ancient clay pots that the Earth's magnetic field was approximately twice as strong in Roman times as it is now.

Dipole Moment from 1900-2000

Even so, the current strength of the magnetic field is as high as it has been in the last 50,000 years, even if it is nearly 800,000 years since the last reversal. Also, bearing in mind what we said about 'excursions' above, and knowing what we do about the properties of mathematical models of the magnetic field, it is far from clear we can easily extrapolate to 1500 years hence.

Back to the top.

How quickly do the poles 'flip'?
We have no complete record of the history of any reversal, so any claims we can make are mostly on the basis of mathematical models of the field behaviour and partly on limited evidence from rocks that retain an imprint of the ancient magnetic field present when they were formed. For example, the mathematical simulations seem to suggest that a full reversal may take about one to several thousand years to complete. This is fast by geological standards but slow on a human time scale.

Back to the top.

What happens during a reversal? What do we see at the Earth's surface?
As above, we have limited evidence from geological measurements about the patterns of change in the magnetic field during a reversal. We might expect to see, based on models of the field run on supercomputers, a far more complicated field pattern at the Earth's surface, with perhaps more than one North and South pole at any given time. We might also see the poles 'wandering' with time from their current positions towards and across the equator. The overall strength of the field, anywhere on the Earth, may be no more than a tenth of its strength now.

Back to the top.

Is there any danger to life?
Almost certainly not. The Earth's magnetic field is contained within a region of space, known as the magnetosphere, by the action of the solar wind. The magnetosphere deflects many, but not all, of the high-energy particles that flow from the Sun in the solar wind and from other sources in the galaxy. Sometimes the Sun is particularly active, for example when there are many sunspots, and it may send clouds of high-energy particles in the direction of the Earth. During such solar 'flares' and 'coronal mass ejections', astronauts in Earth orbit may need extra shelter to avoid higher doses of radiation. Therefore we know that the Earth's magnetic field offers only some, rather than complete, resistance to particle radiation from space. Indeed high-energy particles can actually be accelerated within the magnetosphere.

At the Earth's surface, the atmosphere acts as an extra blanket to stop all but the most energetic of the solar and galactic radiation. In the absence of a magnetic field, the atmosphere would still stop most of the radiation. Indeed the atmosphere shields us from high-energy radiation as effectively as a concrete layer some 13 feet thick.

Human beings have been on the Earth for a number of million years, during which there have been many reversals, and there is no obvious correlation between human development and reversals. Similarly, reversal patterns do not match patterns in species extinction during geological history.

Some animals, such as pigeons and whales, may use the Earth's magnetic field for direction finding. Assuming that a reversal takes a number of thousand years, that is, over many generations of each species, each animal may well adapt to the changing magnetic environment, or develop different methods of navigation.

Back to the top.

I'm interested in a more technical description. Can you tell me more?
The source of the magnetic field is the iron-rich liquid outer core of the Earth. This liquid moves in complex ways as a result of the convection of the heat deep within the core and of the rotation of the planet. The motion of the core fluid is continuous and never stops, even during a reversal. It can only stop when the energy source fails. Heat is produced at least partly because of the solidification of the liquid core onto the solid inner core that sits at the centre of the Earth. This process has operated continuously over billions of years. At the top of the liquid core, some 3000 km beneath our feet and below the rocky mantle, the fluid may travel at horizontal speeds of tens of kilometres per year. The motion of this metal fluid across existing magnetic field lines of force produces electrical currents and these, in turn, generate more magnetic field. This is a process known as advection. To balance any growth of the field, and thus stabilise what we call the 'geodynamo', we need diffusion, where field 'leaks' away from the core and is destroyed. Ultimately, the core fluid flow produces a complicated magnetic field pattern at the Earth's surface with a complicated time variation.

Simulations of the geodynamo on supercomputers have demonstrated the complex nature of the field and its behaviour over time. Simulations have also revealed reversals in the polarity, where the magnetic North pole is replaced by a South pole, and vice versa. In such simulations, the strength of the main dipole appears to weaken, perhaps to about 10% of its normal value (but not vanish) and the existing poles may wander across the globe and be joined by other temporary North and South magnetic poles (the 'non-dipole field').

The solid iron inner core of the Earth has been shown in these simulations to be important in controlling the reversal process. Because it is a solid, the inner core can't generate magnetic field by advection, but any field that is generated in the fluid outer core can diffuse, or spread, into the inner core. The field generation process (advection) in the outer core seems to regularly attempt to reverse. But unless the field locked into the inner core first diffuses away, a true reversed field cannot become established throughout the core. Essentially the inner core resists any 'new' field diffusing in and perhaps only one in every ten such reversal attempts is successful.

It is worth stressing that these results, while fascinating in themselves, are not known to be strictly true of the 'real' Earth. However, we have mathematical models of the Earth's magnetic field for the last 400 years, with early models based largely on observations made by mariners engaged in merchant and naval shipping. From these models and extrapolating down into the Earth, it is known that regions of reversed flux at the core-mantle boundary have grown over time. In these regions the compass points in the opposite direction, in or out of the core, compared to that of surrounding areas. It is the growth in area of such a reversed flux patch under the south Atlantic that is primarily responsible for the decay in the main dipolar field. This reverse patch is also responsible for the minimum in field strength called the South Atlantic Anomaly, centred over North-east Brazil. In this region energetic particles can approach Earth more closely, causing increased radiation risk to low Earth orbit satellites.

There is much work yet to be done in understanding the properties of the deep Earth. This is a world where the crushing forces and core temperatures similar to that of the surface of the Sun take our scientific understanding to the limit.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline tiago2010

  • Posts: 21
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 02:44:29 am »
About the Mayas, If someone speaks spanish. This is a good source, if im trustworthy..

http://www.masacalli.com/2009/02/caminando-en-el-2012.html

About the Maya info, good sources:

- La Tierra del Faisán y el Venado (Antonio Mediz)
- Los Nuevos Videntes (Carlos Jesus Castillejos)
- Chilam Balam (sacred book from the "Balams" the Jaguar Warriors from the Peninsula of Yucatan)
- El Vuelo de la Serpiente Emplumada (written in 1948 by Armando Cosni)
- The Sacred book (translated by spaniers but.. uff it has a lot of info) Popol Vuh

The thing is that the 2012, is based in one of the 5 sacred calendars from the Yucatan Mayas. But ALSO, you have the calendars from Mayan Quiches from Guatemala, the Mayas Tzeltal from Chiapas... etc...

The interpretation of 2012, is a erroneus interpretation made by a Mexican new agers. There's no catastrophe. That is a mental colonialism interpretation based in the bible and the apocalipsis...

Has one good friend from Yucatan once told me: "Once, i asked to a old Mayan who was a proud farmer from a linage family of Balams, near to Balankanché: What are you going to do for Diciember in the 2012" He just replied... "Well... as we do everyday, wake up and see if the milpa is going well... uhm.. but if its sunday, maybe I'm not going to wake up with the Sun, just a little bit later, to share with my old lady, and go waking to the church as we do every sunday"


Offline fredvoss

  • Posts: 9
Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2010, 04:48:56 pm »
Dear forum,

several persons by relation to European astrologic say, the mayan not say these things.

In the German-language countries we have theatre and trouble with so called Mayan
secrets and wisdoms since many years.

The theatre around the year 2012 are part of making money of New Age persons.

Another problem are the ufo-followers. They also handling around 2012. They teach
that only the help of Ufos can help us. They refuse any action to make democracy or
to really to help Indigenous Nations.

greetings
fredvoss