Author Topic: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012  (Read 92055 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« on: October 11, 2009, 04:26:00 pm »
Finally, the message is getting out to the mainstream media.

2012 isn't the end of the world, Mayans insist
AP – In this photo taken Oct. 3, 2009, Guatemalan Mayan Indian elder Apolinario Chile Pixtun poses for a portrait …

MEXICO CITY – Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan Indian elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

At Cornell University, Ann Martin, who runs the "Curious? Ask an Astronomer" Web site, says people are scared.

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die," Martin said. "We had a mother of two young children who was afraid she wouldn't live to see them grow up."

Chile Pixtun, a Guatemalan, says the doomsday theories spring from Western, not Mayan ideas.

A significant time period for the Mayas does end on the date, and enthusiasts have found a series of astronomical alignments they say coincide in 2012, including one that happens roughly only once every 25,800 years.

But most archaeologists, astronomers and Maya say the only thing likely to hit Earth is a meteor shower of New Age philosophy, pop astronomy, Internet doomsday rumors and TV specials such as one on the History Channel which mixes "predictions" from Nostradamus and the Mayas and asks: "Is 2012 the year the cosmic clock finally winds down to zero days, zero hope?"

It may sound all too much like other doomsday scenarios of recent decades — the 1987 Harmonic Convergence, the Jupiter Effect or "Planet X." But this one has some grains of archaeological basis.

One of them is Monument Six.

Found at an obscure ruin in southern Mexico during highway construction in the 1960s, the stone tablet almost didn't survive; the site was largely paved over and parts of the tablet were looted.

It's unique in that the remaining parts contain the equivalent of the date 2012. The inscription describes something that is supposed to occur in 2012 involving Bolon Yokte, a mysterious Mayan god associated with both war and creation.

However — shades of Indiana Jones — erosion and a crack in the stone make the end of the passage almost illegible.

Archaeologist Guillermo Bernal of Mexico's National Autonomous University interprets the last eroded glyphs as maybe saying, "He will descend from the sky."

Spooky, perhaps, but Bernal notes there are other inscriptions at Mayan sites for dates far beyond 2012 — including one that roughly translates into the year 4772.

And anyway, Mayas in the drought-stricken Yucatan peninsula have bigger worries than 2012.

"If I went to some Mayan-speaking communities and asked people what is going to happen in 2012, they wouldn't have any idea," said Jose Huchim, a Yucatan Mayan archaeologist. "That the world is going to end? They wouldn't believe you. We have real concerns these days, like rain."

The Mayan civilization, which reached its height from 300 A.D. to 900 A.D., had a talent for astronomy

Its Long Count calendar begins in 3,114 B.C., marking time in roughly 394-year periods known as Baktuns. Thirteen was a significant, sacred number for the Mayas, and the 13th Baktun ends around Dec. 21, 2012.

"It's a special anniversary of creation," said David Stuart, a specialist in Mayan epigraphy at the University of Texas at Austin. "The Maya never said the world is going to end, they never said anything bad would happen necessarily, they're just recording this future anniversary on Monument Six."

Bernal suggests that apocalypse is "a very Western, Christian" concept projected onto the Maya, perhaps because Western myths are "exhausted."

If it were all mythology, perhaps it could be written off.

But some say the Maya knew another secret: the Earth's axis wobbles, slightly changing the alignment of the stars every year. Once every 25,800 years, the sun lines up with the center of our Milky Way galaxy on a winter solstice, the sun's lowest point in the horizon.

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

Another spooky coincidence?

"The question I would ask these guys is, so what?" says Phil Plait, an astronomer who runs the "Bad Astronomy" blog. He says the alignment doesn't fall precisely in 2012, and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

"They're really super-duper trying to find anything astronomical they can to fit that date of 2012," Plait said.

But author John Major Jenkins says his two-decade study of Mayan ruins indicate the Maya were aware of the alignment and attached great importance to it.

"If we want to honor and respect how the Maya think about this, then we would say that the Maya viewed 2012, as all cycle endings, as a time of transformation and renewal," said Jenkins.

As the Internet gained popularity in the 1990s, so did word of the "fateful" date, and some began worrying about 2012 disasters the Mayas never dreamed of.

Author Lawrence Joseph says a peak in explosive storms on the surface of the sun could knock out North America's power grid for years, triggering food shortages, water scarcity — a collapse of civilization. Solar peaks occur about every 11 years, but Joseph says there's evidence the 2012 peak could be "a lulu."

While pressing governments to install protection for power grids, Joseph counsels readers not to "use 2012 as an excuse to not live in a healthy, responsible fashion. I mean, don't let the credit cards go up."

Another History Channel program titled "Decoding the Past: Doomsday 2012: End of Days" says a galactic alignment or magnetic disturbances could somehow trigger a "pole shift."

"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Scientists say that, at best, the poles might change location by one degree over a million years, with no sign that it would start in 2012.

While long discredited, Brasseur de Bourbourg proves one thing: Westerners have been trying for more than a century to pin doomsday scenarios on the Maya. And while fascinated by ancient lore, advocates seldom examine more recent experiences with apocalypse predictions.

"No one who's writing in now seems to remember that the last time we thought the world was going to end, it didn't," says Martin, the astronomy webmaster. "There doesn't seem to be a lot of memory that things were fine the last time around."

Offline earthw7

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 05:58:41 pm »
can we say Duh!
they should of asked native people to begin with ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 03:47:50 am by earthw7 »
In Spirit

Offline flyaway

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 10:15:50 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D yep!!!!!
Walk with the Sun; Dance with the Moon; Sing with the Stars; But always...Run with the Wind. -
Snow Owl, Nevada. December 8, 2001

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 02:21:55 pm »
LOL.  I find it fun and interesting.  I'm not an expert or whatever, but I've seen some things of a prophet Sybil it is said she predicted something of 2012, and the I-Ching, also the Hopi?  Anyway, either way, regardless, I find it amusing.  I do know that any 'shift' would be magnetic, not physical.. the Earth isn't going to flip about.  I personally wouldn't mind having the magnetic flip occur.  I wouldn't mind if the world as we know it crumbled in some ways...   :)
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Offline uktena

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 11:09:48 pm »
This idea that 12/21/12 represents some kind of "end of things" has been like static noise in the background for most of my life, but until now has been drowned out by other end-of-the-world scenarios.  There was the Jehovah's Witnesses and their 1984 prediction, which was about as accurate as the ones for 1918, 1925, and 1975.  There was the Harmonic Convergence, which I never quite figured out what was supposed to happen then, on August 17, 1987, but of course nothing did.  And who can forget that wonderful Y2K business, when all the world's computers crashed, planes fell out of the sky, banks lost all your money, and only people with concrete shelters in their back yards full of guns, bottled water, and canned food survived.......oh, wait a minute, that didn't happen either.   :D

Oh, I almost forgot that one about "In the year 1999 and seven months", blah blah, Great King of Terror, blah blah, King of the Mongols, blah blah, Mars rules happily.  I never took Nostradamus very seriously, but as far as I'm concerned, he really blew that one!

So I don't think I'm going to lose any sleep over this one, either, other than planning how I'm going to do my usual "see, I told you" number on December 22.  Other people can watch the doomsday documentaries on the History Channel ("where history happens in the future"), worry about the poles lining up with the galactic center and Planet X passing by, and buying insurance against falling asteroids, but right now, I'm just going to sit down and have my supper.   :D

All the predictions I mentioned  are just the ones that got a lot of media attention, never mind all the Chicken Littles doing freelance prophecy to anyone who will listen.  ("If it doesn’t come to pass…starting in April, then I’m nothing but a false prophet…"(Ronald Weinland, 2008 - God's Final Witness, Church of God) - well, if the shoe fits.....)

I even have a big joke about 2012: my computer has a screensaver that is designed after the Ouroboros symbol in the late-'90s TV show Millenium; its default configuration was to count down to January 1, 2000, but you can set it to any date you want to.  Guess what date it's been counting down toward for the past four years.  ;D  And just so you know, you all have 1159 days to get your house in order before the Mayan calendar ends, and time itself runs out, and we all transform into one-celled creatures crawling around in the primeval slime trying to remember how to do that evolution thing.

More to the point of this thread, I've been asking all along, why don't people just go and ask the Mayans what this whole thing means, and almost unanimously the answer has been, well, the Mayans don't exist any more (either they died out, or they just boarded their spaceships and went back home), so we have to figure it out for ourselves.  Not very different from the guy who decides that, since nobody exists who REALLY knows the Bible,  it's up to him to sit down with his KJV and a pocket calculator, and figure out that the world really ended in 2008, but mankind is just too stupid to realize it. (I know I'm trying to be funny here, but in all seriousness, I heard Newagers make this very argument both about the Harmonic Convergence and Y2K.) 

It's the usual attitude that has been brought up again and again on this board, how arrogant white people think that Indian culture is disappearing, and its up to us advanced, intelligent, spiritually refined people to recreate and reform it, and give it back to those benighted natives in a shiny, new, improved (and btw much more expensive) form, for the benefit of all mankind.

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 02:35:04 am »
LOL I still find it fun and interesting.  There's not much I take seriously.  Fun and interesting is well, more fun and interesting..  !  :)
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Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 01:56:47 am »
As I deal with ancient catastrophic asteroid and comet impacts, I was asked about the 2012 scam all the time. I would tell them that it was a con, and explain to them why, but it was a good thing that I was able point people to NAFPS so they could find out from Maya for themselves, and it is good that the major media finally picked up on it.

As far as "fun" goes, yeah, the well organized ring of con artists who pull these cons have a lot of fun putting fear and confusion into people and then selling them their fears. They have "fun" laughing all the way to the bank when none of it happens.

Go to any Barnes and Nobles or Borders and you can see the imaginary NDN histories they come up with, and the imaginary European empires they set up in the Americas. You'll get a real chuckle - but remember that they manage to convince many people that this was what actually happened.

I thought it was all "fun" and "entertaining" as well... until the bodies started piling up.

PM me for a copy of "Amazing Stories", my guide inside the cult archaeology industry - you will be amazed.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 02:04:19 am by E.P. Grondine »

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 04:00:18 am »
That's not my definition of fun and interesting. And I never said that it was. Some may find it profitable, and manipulate it and people..  and still others find it fearful. 

I put aside all the fanciful imaginings, and just enjoy for what it is.  But I"m not a doomsday type person either.  And have never believed the world would 'end'.  But the coming of a time, marked by an ancient people's, is to me, fun and interesting. 

The magnetic poles may or may not flip during my lifetime, or our great grandchildren's lifetimes.. great great grandchildren's or..   who knows?  But the magnetic poles do flip..  but I don't believe it would cause the end of the world..  and I don't 'attach' it to the 2012.  I find prophecy interesting, but I don't put a whole lot of stock into it because I just don't believe the 'future' can be predicted..  I don't believe the 'future' is 'tangible' in that sort of way.  The future hasn't been written yet.. it is still open.. and new.. to all possibilities. 

The doomsday sayers, well, they have their say.. and it's what they will believe whether there is a movie or not.  I will most likely enjoy the movie, if it's good, because I like good Sci Fi.. I liked the Lord of the Rings too.. 

Movies and whatnot, people have imaginations, and imagine what it would be like if the world did end.  Why it's 'attached' to 2012 I don't know, exactly, a mis interpretation of some archeologists..  The apocalypse movies attached to the Christian myths also have people in a fit, and many take advantage of that as well.. Millions of believers in that myth are just 'waiting' for it to happen.. and perhaps even 'intending' it..  Sad, but there it is. 

All I can say is People will be people, and some will always take everything way too seriously, and end their lives over it, or rake in the dough by exploiting such a thing.  But does that mean I or another cannot just enjoy an event for what it is without all the hoopla? 

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2009, 04:38:32 pm »
Now NASA is working to debunk the nonsense about 2012.

NASA on a crusade to debunk 2012 apocalypse myths
Nov 9 02:37 PM US/Eastern

The world is not coming to an end on December 21, 2012, the US space agency insisted Monday in a rare campaign to dispel widespread rumors fuelled by the Internet and a new Hollywood movie.

Sony Pictures's latest big screen offering "2012" arrives in theaters on Friday, with a 200-million-dollar production about the end of the world supposedly based on myths backed by the Mayan calendar.

The doomsday scenario revolves claims that the end of time will come as an obscure Planet X -- or Nibiru -- heads toward or collides into Earth.

The mysterious planet was supposedly discovered by the Sumerians, according to claims by pseudo-scientists, paranormal activity enthusiasts and Internet theorists.

Some websites accuse NASA of concealing the truth on the wayward planet's existence, but the US space agency denounced such stories as an "Internet hoax."

"There is no factual basis for these claims," NASA said in a question-and-answer posting on its website.

If such a collision were real "astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye," it added. "Obviously, it does not exist."

"Credible scientists worldwide know of no threat associated with 2012," NASA insisted.

Initial theories set the disaster for May 2003, but when nothing happened the date was moved forward to the winter solstice in 2012 to coincide with the end of a cycle of the ancient Mayan calendar.

But NASA insisted the Mayan calendar in fact does not end on December 21, 2012, as another period begins immediately afterward. And it said there are no planetary alignments on the horizon for the next few decades.

And even if the planets were to line up as some have forecast, the effect on our planet would be "negligible," NASA said.

Among the other theories NASA has set out to debunk are that geomagnetic storms, a pole reversal or unsteadiness in the Earth's crustal plates might befall the planet.

And while comets and asteroids have always hit the Earth, "big hits are very rare," NASA noted. The last major impact was believed to be 65 million years ago, spurring the end of dinosaurs.

"We have already determined that there are no threatening asteroids as large as the one that killed the dinosaurs," the space agency said.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 06:35:03 pm »
Can anyone say "Harmonic Convergence"?

I was one of many, many people who said, "Eh, why not." and trooped out at dawn to meditate and pray in the park. While it was cool to see a bunch of people out at dawn praying for peace, and most people were just doing their own thing, we also saw dubious, wannabe cult leaders taking advantage of people.

Some dude dressed in an approximation of "Mayan" gear showed up in the park. He looked the part, so all these people who were wandering around, wondering what to do, lined up and did whatever he told them. He had them lying on the ground, face down, in weird formations, repeating whatever he said. In retrospect it's sort of funny, but overall it's really creepy. I got bad vibes from the guy.

I don't recall the guy's name, or what became of him after the "Harmonica Virgins". Thankfully, some of the wanderers who were initially drawn to him, thinking it was some sort of official event, wandered away. Some of them wound up praying with us.

I foresee frauds like that dude coming out of the woodwork; and new frauds who are inventing their personas, costumes and backstories right now; all primed to take advantage of the scared and confused... the wanderers in the park. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:56:01 pm by Kathryn »

Offline Sizzle Flambé

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 05:12:27 pm »
Ayup, let's spread the word not to worry, calm everyone down, then make a date to gather and watch.

Someplace high and solid, with a good view of a lot of people, and bring some nice food to pass the time.

When the ground starts shaking, won't they all be surprised! They'll come running out, look all around, see the buildings start to break, and maybe they'll even see us! Do you think we'll be able to hear them scream, "You told us this wouldn't happen!" ?

That'll be the moment for us to put up the big sign reading:

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 10:28:12 pm »
The NAFPS message got through:

and I really like this one:

Hope you enjoy. Well done.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Offline NCRunningWolf

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2009, 03:20:04 pm »
I think NAFPS is going to be busy the next few years.    ;)

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 06:30:33 pm »
"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Actually, no, the reporter on this piece got it wrong, Braasser de Bourbourg was not the source of this "crustal shift" nonsense. Here is a shorter history of the  nonsense and how it became a nuage tenet:

Hi -

As near as I know, a crustal shift has never happened, and can't, as the forces required are so large that the Earth would fragment. There is no wandering planet Niburu, nor have any of the planets changed their orbits.

The source for all of this nonsense seems to have been:

Who was a classical scholar who first came up with this nonsense. Phaethon=Planet X. (I received this information from Leroy Ellenberger, the work is that of Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs:

Radlof's theory, embodied in a thin booklet printed in Gothic letters and published in 1823, essentially boils down to four strands of theory, all of which recur throughout the entire subsequent history of catastrophism.

The FIRST IDEA was that of the exploded planet: in 1802, Olbers had proposed that the recently discovered bodies Ceres, Pallas, Juno, and Vesta in the asteroid belt must have been the last remnants of a former giant planet that once orbited between Mars and Jupiter.

In this source planet, Radlof saw the original referent of the myths of Phaethon, Isaiah's 'morning star', Typhon, and others. [DATES SERIOUSLY WRONG.] The link with Phaethon was justified by reference to the following passage from Nonnus, in which Hermes addressed Phaethon as follows:

"Then you will shine in the sky like the Sun God next to Ares,
scattering that thick invisible darkness far away;
a miracle unheard of in the course of the ages"

If Phaethon really stood "next to Ares", Radlof naively argued, he could have been the missing planet, that formerly revolved between Mars and Jupiter.

THE SECOND COMPONENT of Radlof's theory, the mythical death of both Phaethon and Typhon at the hands of Zeus was then interpreted as
the disruption of the former planet. In keeping with Nonnus' statement that Zeus discharged a comet towards Typhon, Radlof supposed that THE FORMER PLANET 'PHAETHON' SPLINTERED TO PIECES AFTER COLLISION WITH A COMET:

"Perhaps this displacement happened as the result of a collision with what used to be called a dragon star or a comet"

Unperturbed by Nonnus' late date, Radlof then complained that Nonnus ought to have given more attention to the comet than he actually did:

"The moving power of that enormous water mountain that rose from the sea and moved forth over the Earth is obviously Jupiter's comet, and it is actually surprising that our poet allows him only a marginal role"

The THIRD ELEMENT of Radlof's theory is that the planets were on different orbits than today. Radlof uniquely speculated that THE PLANET VENUS WAS ONE OF THE FRAGMENTS OF THE EXPLODED PLANET, that settled into its present orbit in the immediate aftermath of the explosion, after some close encounters with Mars. These views were motivated by the desire to accommodate Varro's statement regarding Venus' changed appearance and possibly also Phaethon's links to Venus. In defence of the view that Venus had once been a constituent of a bigger planet, Radlof pointed to Venus' 'tiny size'. His bold ideas about the origins of Venus qualify Radlof as possibly the first modern 'planetary catastrophist' on record.

The explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' would also have had repercussions for our own planet. The FOURTH ELEMENT in Radlof's theory was THE TILTING OF THE ROTATIONAL AXIS OF THE EARTH, that had originally pointed towards the zenith:

"And the Aethiopians may indeed really have turned black on that occasion, because the hot zone ran over their heads when the Earth axis was disrupted by that event."

The tilted position of the Earth's axis with respect to its poles had already led old-Greek researchers to assume that our earthly star had been hurled from its former, straight position by some external body; in fact, Anaxagoras taught that the stars had originally revolved straight in the celestial firmament, so that the pole stood exactly on top of the zenith of the earth. The Earth's point of gravity must have been disrupted by the collisions of the two disturbed heavenly bodies Hesperus and Phaethon, and especially by the former's change of orbit and all subsequent radical changes in the internal equilibrium equations of the planets in our solar realm, and its former position with respect to the pole had to be altered twice.


"The fire already threatens the pole of heaven
And Atlas can hardly go on to carry the glowing firmament,
When Jupiter - with his lightning hurls the rider from his chariot
and with dreadful fire quenches the all-fire.
With burning hair Phaethon comes down from the high sky
like a star that seems to fall
and is absorbed, far from his home,
by the waves of the great Eridanus
… an entire day went by without sun."

"Even the axis of the sky is twisted by the swirling ether, and the bent Atlas can hardly continue to bear the circling pole of the stars … and all animals of the circle turn inimical towards each other; even the planets clash: Venus clashes with Jupiter, Mars with Saturn; and the Pleiad, thrown of its orbit, approaches Mercury, mixing its cognate light with that of the Pleiades"

Shrinking back from the extraordinary claim of a full-on disruption of all planetary orbits, Radlof hastened to add the following laconic remark to the latter part of Nonnus' quote:

"Whether those disturbances in the solar domain during the fall of that radiant earth star had really been so far-reaching or whether the poet rather painted it in the way it appeared to the eye, easily misled, that may the actual astronomer investigate for himself."

Quite apart from the shifting of the axis, the explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' wreaked more havoc on earth. Ahead of his time, Radlof speculated that the catastrophe caused by the comet impact must have incurred a bundle of disastrous events on earth, including THE FLOOD [of Noah], "great earthquakes" and "eruptions of fire". In a remarkable display of prescience, Radlof envisaged the 'cosmic winter' as a universal deposit of snow in the wake of the event. This prediction was based on Nonnus' report that an endless rain of snow covered the entire earth until the sky, "so that Thessaly's highest pinnacle of rocks and the tops of Parnassus, close to the clouds, swung in the icy flood". And the equivalent of a veil of darkness induced by the fall-out of cosmic debris was Solinus' account of an uninterrupted night holding sway over the earth for nine months during the flood of Ogyges.

Despite these accurate 'predictions', however, and for all its genius, Radlof's work is rather poorly documented by modern standards. No compelling evidence is brought into court at all for the identification of the mythical protagonist with the missing planet in the solar system. A major flaw is the unclarity regarding the dates and the exact number of catastrophes believed to have happened. RADLOF CITED CLASSICAL SOURCES DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN AT LEAST FOUR CATASTROPHES – THOSE OF OGYGES, INACHUS, DARDANUS, AND DEUCALION RESPECTIVELY, BESIDE THE FLOOD OF NOAH AND THE FALL OF PHAETHON – BUT FAILED TO ELUCIDATE HOW MANY OF THESE COULD HAVE BEEN IDENTICAL, and especially to which one the shattering of the planet Phaethon and the fall of Hesperus or Venus would belong. That said, however, Radlof definitely ranks among the pioneers of early catastrophism and may indeed be the first planetary catastrophist in modern scholarship. Immanuel Velikovsky would have done well to credit Radlof as such."

Radlof's nonsense was then picked up on by SAMPSON ARNOLD MACKEY, and passed to Rosicrucian Masons:

From there the crustal shift nonsense was taken up by the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, who passed it to Blavatsky. It was also taken up by Augustus and Alice LePlongeon; Augustus was an insane Mayan scholar who had a peculiar history of Atlantis.

As Le Plongeon put it fairly concisely in his 1876 work "Sacred Mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago. Their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India. Free Masonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon": “I will endeavour to show you that the ancient sacred mysteries, the origin of Freemasonry consequently, date back from a period far more remote than the most sanguine students of its history ever imagined. I will try to trace their origin, step by step, to this continent which we inhabit - to America - from where Maya colonists transported their ancient religious rites and ceremonies not only to the banks of the Nile, but to those of the Euphrates, and the shores of the Indian Ocean, not less than 11,500 years ago."

Blavatsky and the LePlongeons met in New York City, where the nonsense was incorporated into "Theosophy", spread to A.M.O.R.C., but most importantly it was passed on to Lillian V. Bense, of Portland, Oregon, near Mt Shasta, who wrote "A Dweller on Two Planets".

Lillian V. Bense's success was picked up on by California con man Baird T. Spaulding, who falsely claimed to have visited India in 1897 and gained mystical wisdom there. His Life and "Teaching of the Masters of the Far East” (1924) and “India Tour Lessons” (1935-1936) enjoyed considerable successm, until his followers cornered him into taking them to India to meet with the masters.

Spaulding's con collapsed when the masters failed to show up, leaving the way open for two commercial writers, Robert D. Stelle and Howard John Zitko to go into the religion business, which they did by setting up the Lemurian Fellowship. They enjoyed considerable success, until money disputes came in the way. Following an investigation of Stelle and Zitko for bond fraud, Stelle took all of Zitko's writing.

The dispute between Stelle and Zitko left the ownership of their work open, and it was stolen by their student Richard Kieninger, who wrote "The Ultimate Frontier". David Hatcher Childress then used the materials Kieninger had gathered to write his books, and entered into a business partnership with Kieninger. But Kieninger was thrown out of the community that his followers had built for him (and which he then sold to them) for seducing their wives and teenage daughters.

David Hatcher Childress (with his half brother John Moss's assistance, and using the technical skills of Harry Osoff) now set up a computerized mailing list using Richard Kieninger's mailing list. Added to the mix was some novel "alternative" physics which had been gathered by Richard and David's former business partner Bill Donovan.

Richard Kieninger himself would go on to become involved with the Republic of Texas militia group.

The last time the Earth's crust was supposed to shift was the year 2000. It did not shift then, and it won't shift in 2012. Physics precludes it. Here is an alternative hypothesis, one whose truth is becoming more and more evident yearly: in the recent past the Earth has been hit by both comets and asteroids, and these impacts killed a lot of people.

Bottom line: In my opinion, what Radlof was trying to make sense of was ancient memories of these impacts.

Finally, as was posted here at the Daily Grail, the idea that 2012 marks some end time is European, not Mayan. Do you have an automobile accident every time your odometer rolls over?

I suppose in closing this I should mention these folks had and have a really strange ideas about Jesus, who he was, and what he did, and thus it is the source for "The DaVinci Code". As was mentioned by Dan Brown in his testimony in the plagiarism suit. So let's see: Jesus, Masons, Templars, Roman Catholic Church...

Given its lack of a real historical basis, does it matter what fiction an author come up with? Does it matter what fiction a movie maker uses for his disaster film?

Sometimes it does. A soul is a terrible thing to loose.

If anyone here at NAFPS wants a copy of my guide inside the nuage industry, simply PM me for one.

Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2010, 05:50:01 am »
I wonder if the Mayan descendants know what happened, why 1000's up and left their villages with no trace? 
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