Author Topic: Spirit Lodge Academy / Maarten Elout  (Read 14373 times)

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Spirit Lodge Academy / Maarten Elout
« on: February 17, 2010, 02:22:22 am »
Timberlinewarrior was having trouble posting this so I said I would. This is what he had to say:
Quote
I found this man today and he's based in Holland and although he says he's NOT copying NA sweat lodges it looks as if he is and not only that, teaching the next generation of frauds too.

http://www.spiritlodgeacademy.eu/academy/

Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 04:33:32 am »
he says

" What I am teaching is a ritual sweat bath practice rooted in European spiritual ways, beliefs and customs and I'm doing so in a new way; combining an exploration of the mythology and spiritual legacy of the European people, 'classical western' study of various (historical) source materials, and ancient universal shamanic techniques, into a three year initiation and apprenticeship. "

my bold ..  isn't that pretty much 'new age speak' for "what we ripped off from Native Americans"?  

he says

"With the academy I'm aware that I'm breaking the mold of by whom and how these teachings traditionally have been passed on in other cultures. What I'm doing in fact, is reclaiming old ways and I'm integrating them into the present in a way that no one has done before. "

doesn't he mean by 'other cultures' the NA culture?  and yeh..  no one has done this before..   ::)

looks like a lodge to me.  I'm guessing he figures if he does something else inside of it than what is done from the culture it came from, then it is not of that culture?  

I notice he doesn't name who is main teacher is, or who taught him to 'pour water'...  but it's difficult for me to believe it's not NA.

but.. I dunno, is it possible 'ancient "Europeans"' had similar ceremony? 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 04:43:26 am by critter »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 04:59:49 am »
No, I can answer my own question after more looking at the site. 

I'm depressed. This is depressing.

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline TimberlineWarrior

  • Posts: 98
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Maarten Elout Teaching sweat lodges in Holland and the UK
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 01:08:11 pm »
I happened across this guy Maarten Elout and although he states

It is NOT a Native American sweat lodge ceremony even though my 'remembering' was initiated by my personal journey with a few of those traditions. With the Spirit Lodge Academy program I am NOT transfering traditional pouring rights in a Native American lineage. It is not my place to do so; I am not a Native American nor do I pretend to have been given those rights. If you're interested in Native American spirituality I would suggest you seek out a Native American elder.

It has been long recognised that European people used saunas and although Druids claimed they did sweat lodges this was only to be able to sell them.
From what I see of this site, he's not only selling sweat lodges but teaching the next lot of Nu-agers how to do them.
Althought he claims no connection to Native American is sure looks like it!

^. .^

Offline Superdog

  • Posts: 440
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 02:55:22 pm »
This guy is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.  In one side he's saying he's not Native, doesn't teach anything Native and what he's doing is not a Native American sweat lodge, but a "Spirit Lodge".  In the other side he claims that for ten years or more he participated in Native American sweat lodges and that's how he learned about the European roots of the Spirit Lodge sweat bath.....but the site is covered with imagery that is distinctly Native American and......once again....plastic tarps on his "Spirit Lodge".....


Oh brother...here we go again....how many James Ray incidents must occur before these thick skulls figure out that plastic tarps are BAD IDEA.

Sorry, feeling a little frustrated.  This is a new version of fraud, the evolution of it.  He's taken what he could from Native cultures (which apparently wasn't very good info) and repackaged it as his own.  He must recognize the backlash of claiming to be a Native sweat lodge keeper now that information is more readily available to people who 10 years ago would've been fooled easily by these shenanigans, so he took it another step.  That old line comes to mind..."You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig"

Pretty much sums it up.

Superdog

Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 05:02:43 pm »
Well, this bothers me.  I don't know enough or much or anything about smudging, but seriously, poisonous feathers?  To use for smudging?  Is this a hazard?  ???  Is it really "appropriate" to use poisonous feathers for smudging??

http://crafts.maartenelout.com/smudge-feathers.html

Peacocks can eat poisonous plants and transmute the poison into the beautiful iridescent colors of their feathers. In Buddhism peacock feathers are used in many ceremonies to symbolize this process of transmuting the poisons of the mind (delusions) into enlightenment and bodhicitta (the awakened heart). I found these feminine peacock feathers a while back and it struck me then how appropriate it would be to use them for smudging.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Unegv Waya

  • Posts: 86
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 05:39:48 pm »
I'm sure that there are/were forms of European sweats and that some of those go back as far as native sweats.  However, the style of sweat lodge shown on his sure looks NA to me.   

I have to agree that what he "claims" (that he is not teaching/using anything NA) is not supported by parts of the site.  Between some of his descriptions and the crafts section that seem 100% native based (I somehow doubt the Europeans used a peyote stitch or if the did it was called something else or that they used smudge feathers with NA bead designs) it seems he either doesn't know the difference or is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

At first I thought the site would be OK, based upon his front page verbiage.  A few clicks into the site sure dispelled that impression.
nvwatohiyadv

Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 05:46:10 pm »
Well, I thought on his 'crafts' or 'tools' page he doesn't state it's not from NA or other cultures.  He just disclaims it in regards to the lodge.  That's what I read of it anyway..

I wonder, does he bring those poisonous feathers into the lodge too?  With the plastic and poisonous feathers he's sure to kill someone in there.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 07:28:20 pm »
Good to see you managed to post, TW. I've merged the threads.

I'm sure that there are/were forms of European sweats and that some of those go back as far as native sweats.  However, the style of sweat lodge shown on his sure looks NA to me.

We've had quite a bit of discussion on the "European Sweat" and "Universal Sweat" topic. Here's a post I did on it in the James Ray thread:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.msg19630#msg19630

   
Re: Angel Valley Resort Sweat Lodge in Sedona: 2 dead, 19 injured
Reply #59 on: 20 October 2009, 16:47:07
   
"But Sweatlodges Are Universal"[sic], "But the Celts Had Sweatlodges"[sic], "But Sweats Are Done All Over the World"[sic]

- I have heard these ignorant things said every day since this debacle, especially by those who want to claim James Ray's negligent homicide was not about cultural appropriation. I'll be blogging about this eventually, but for now, here are some links that may be of use next time someone spouts the above nonsense.

We've had some discussion about the Irish and Scottish sweathouses, and the bogus English "reconstruction" of a burnt mound site, on NAFPS before:

Initial comments on the Irish and Scottish taigh an fhallais, teach an allais and fulacht fiadh sites and what we do and don't know about how they were used: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1527.msg9487#msg9487

Thread on "Bronze Age" burnt mound and sweathouse sites in general: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1539.0

My comments in that thread, expanding a bit on what we know of Irish and Scottish sweathouse usage into living memory: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1539.msg9534#msg9534

The main point is: while many cultures have used steam in some way for health purposes, and some of those cultures have also had prayer or ceremony as part of this, beliefs and ceremonies vary widely among cultures. And too many people who are claiming "sweatlodge" is "universal" are not even researching what their ancestors may have done; they are simply trying to excuse their misappropriation of NDN ceremonies. They are lazy and offensive and think people are too stupid to notice that if they call parts of their fake Inipi by terms in another language, no one will notice that their ceremony bears no resemblance to what their ancestors actually did.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:21:47 am by Kathryn »

Ahriman

  • Guest
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 09:59:59 pm »
I think the question of whether there have been European sweat lodges in the long ago past is not very relevant. There is no living tradition, that's for sure. This does not mean it is categorically impossible for us in Europe to start a new tradition. However, getting a website and a catchy name is maybe not the most important achievement towards such an undertaking.

I have been to Marteen's sweat. It was my first and probably last "Spiritual Seminar" sweat. The cost was £50, which included a meal. People had to sign that they did not have any of a number of listed conditions, and that they were voluntarily participating in a potentially deadly practise.

In general it was a mixture of a low-threshold exercises from group therapy (before the sweat started). , a bit of mythology story telling (at the opening of the sweat itself), and elements reminiscent of the Native American sweat lodge. I found a lot of things quite un-cermonially, including the making of the fire and the absence of tobacco offerings (ties).

Marteen calls this spirit lodge, and indeed the spirits were called at the beginning. However, they were not sent home at the end, which made sense as none came.

Marteen was quite careful on the technical level, i.e. first taking not too many stones, then carefully gauging up. He was also friendly and supportive of the people.

According to information on his website (which was not working the last time I visited it), as of December 2009, he came in contact with the sweat lodge about ten years ago. Still, he is offering a three-year training to become a water pourer in his Academy for the bargain of €3000 per annum in the first two years, and €3500 in the last.

Prof Marteen (I guess this must be his title) will be well informed enough to know that in the traditional setting, people are not charged for sweats, nor does one become a water pourer by paying money for it, nor are three years considered enough preparation. But then again, that's just Native American sweats, not ones taught at an academy.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 01:37:14 pm by Ahriman »

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 10:29:36 pm »
I think the question of whether there have been European sweat lodges in the long ago past is not very relevant. There is no living tradition, that's for sure.

As to most people "sweat lodges" means Plains-type ceremonies, no, there were never "European sweat lodges". There are living traditions in Europe and the diaspora that involve sweat baths. Some are merely secular, others involve song, prayer and spirits. But the ceremonies are different.

Offline TimberlineWarrior

  • Posts: 98
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 10:34:35 am »
Having made the post and stirred things up, I enter and take a bow. hehe

To the best of my knowledge there never were UK sweats/saunas/hot rooms of any sort. The Romans had hot baths and steam rooms, but they were for physical cleaning, not spiritual cleansing. The only other type of hot room that I have ever heard of is the Swedish sauna, which is steam.
One thought that comes to mind about the European is the Iroquois word 'yengee'. Most people take this to mean White or European, when I was taught this word I was told it meant greedy and smelly pale skin.
That just about sums up the hygene of the European of the past, but greed is still there.
To me this really is a new form of greed. Knowing that if he sells Sweats then not only will people, such as ourselves, criticise him and condem him he's hoping to get round that by creating a history of European Sweat Lodges. Having thought he'd got round the criticism he's now created an way of making even more money, not only by selling the reaching for a huge sum of money, but also over a 3 year period.
Long term investment. You gotta admire the guys smarts, but certainly not his rip off!

^. .^

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3289
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 07:07:06 pm »
To the best of my knowledge there never were UK sweats/saunas/hot rooms of any sort.

See above links. Stone bathouses built in the Gaelic-speaking areas of Ireland and Scotland. Some fragments of ceremonies remain, but the structures and ceremonies are not like Indigenous American sweat lodges.

As for smelly Europeans, well, it depends which culture we're discussing. There was never one, uniform, "European culture" any more than there was (or is) one, uniform, "Native American culture". In antiquity, there were many different tribal groupings across mainland Europe and the six Celtic nations. Hygiene standards varied, along with other aspects of culture and religion. The ancient Irish warriors were required to bathe daily, even if they had to break the ice off a stream to do so. They were also required to unbraid and rebraid their hair every day. There are tales of the Irish finding people from the mainland smelly.

That said, with the advent of Christianity and its taboos around nudity, mainland Europe got pretty smelly for a while there. In some areas daily bathing is still not practiced, and it seems the first waves of invaders in America were a reallly smelly, filthy crew. I'm sure the Indigenous folks didn't want to go anywhere near them. Just like the Irish and Highland Scots had avoided these smelly people from the mainland when they invaded there.

Quote
The only other type of hot room that I have ever heard of is the Swedish sauna, which is steam.

There are dry heat saunas and steam saunas across Scandinavia and Eastern Europe. In some of the more remote areas of Eastern Europe,  where Christianity never gained solid footing, there are some songs and prayers used in the saunas, and different sauna rituals for different cultural purposes. I know this from a family member whose father grew up with these customs.

Quote
To me this really is a new form of greed. Knowing that if he sells Sweats then not only will people, such as ourselves, criticise him and condem him he's hoping to get round that by creating a history of European Sweat Lodges.

The irony is, there are legitimate traditions, from individual "European" cultures, that are not based on stealing from NDNs. What this guy is doing is not legitimate in any of the above-mentioned cultures. It's like the nons in America who are doing the same thing - fake Inipi with some misunderstood and misapplied terms from other languages, hoping to camouflage their theft and throw the NDNs off their trail. It offends all our ancestors. And if any spirits come, they will be confused, and most likely offended as well, because these people don't know how to interact with them respectfully, or even how to tell if a spirit is helpful or  harmful. These people do all sorts of harm.



ETA: I'm looking over his site. No. Just no. "Smudging" and "Water Pouring" are not European. Nor are all the fake-NDN accoutrements in his photos. His testimonials are from the newage, "firewalking" crowd, who don't bother with his camouflage and just say, "sweatlodge". He speaks of "Celtic Shamanism". Like with NDN traditions, "shaman" is an outsider, anthropologist term, and not relevant to actual Celtic practices. When they can't get away with saying "Indian", they try to say "Celtic". No, still a lie. This just has fraud all over it.

This quote really gives it away, as well:

http://www.spiritlodgeacademy.eu/academy/
Quote
deepening the connection to your own roots, our Creator and the whole of creation,

Since there was no one "European" religion, I'll go from the Celtic and European religions I know of. The pre-Christian religions in those areas were polytheistic. Multiple deities, multiple creators. So unless he's now doing Christian Sweat Lodge, he's ripping off even his theology from what little he knows of contemporary NDN cultures.

And here: http://crafts.maartenelout.com/ He'll sell you a rattle with Kokopelli on it... Who we all know is a traditional symbol of European spirituality. < / sarcasm >
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:33:30 am by Kathryn »

Offline Unegv Waya

  • Posts: 86
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy / Maarten Elout
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 08:26:07 pm »
Thank you, Kathryn.  What you posted is pretty much what I've been given to understand about sweats and hygiene of the ancient Europeans.   What is a bit ironic and even sad from a different European POV is that there is much about the ancient peoples of Europe to take pride in and to celebrate if one has European ancestry.  Like you so aptly pointed out, there was not and is not a pan-European peoples or culture any more than there is a pan-NDN peoples or culture.  So many things . . . so misunderstood on all sides.
nvwatohiyadv

Offline ComesWithFire

  • Posts: 39
Re: Spirit Lodge Academy / Maarten Elout
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 10:35:20 pm »
Just Plain WACKED OUT ....there is so much of this going on all over the world. Egos and wallets are being fed for the most part.
If you cannot run with the big dogs then stay under the porch with the puppies