NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Defend the Sacred on September 15, 2012, 04:06:48 pm
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Since you didn't introduce yourself when asked, I am starting a thread for you here. These are the questions I asked in other threads. Sorry for the small font with the quote function. You can always enlarge the screen for easier reading, or click on the link at the top of the quote to go to the thread with the original posts.
Another MAWW here, European from mixed Scottish/Irish and N European ancestry. There are lots of things about my ancestry that I don't like or agree with but they are my ancestors for better or worse. The thing is, I see the same problems in other cultures, domestic abuse, alcoholism etc. Humans are just humans the world over and whether we are warring over Catholicism/C of E or tribal beliefs they are blood feuds both. Cultural differences aside, we are all of the Earth, all made of the same, recycled stuff so how do we find ways to drop the barriers and move forward?
Here in the UK, I have seen many strange things offered as shamanic teachings. A 3 hour 'Ghost Dance'!!, Fairy psychopomping?! or how's about becoming a certified therapist for sending a part of a client's soul off for a holiday with the Fairies! The thing is, if we have ill-informed people teaching more people after only 1 year's distance learning - how can anything change for the better? Our western culture as it stands now, after 1500 years of often brutal Christianisation, is bereft of the necessary wisdom to take a responsible, spiritual track. Sometimes, with the very best intentions, it's like the blind leading the blind.
Why is it that so many MAWW come to this new belief so late in life? Around the world we see that 40 is magical age, like a 2nd rite of passage where, after the main child bearing age, Spirit often invite the healer within to surface. Then at menopause another foundational change takes place. It is no coincidence that MAWW are being invited by Spirit/Ancestors to deepen their beliefs - but what beliefs?
Here in the West, if we are going to learn and change the way we think/work/act, we need the guidance of more than just well meaning and open minded people. We need a new paradigm of teaching and learning based on integrity, respect and honour. Who can reach out to help us establish this?
Our own pagan/shamanic/nature based beliefs and cultures may be buried under centuries of repression but they are resurfacing. What is not so easily uncovered is the framework within which they need to stand.
Saskia, You might want to read our threads on Core Shamanism and it's creator, Michael Harner. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=236.0
We don't see "shamanism" as a universal phenomenon, or an appropriate term for anyone's ways but the specific Siberian culture that the term was stolen from. Harner is a cultural thief and is one of the main people to blame for white people playing NDN, even though they sometimes dress it up in the superficial, outer trappings of other cultures. Following that sort of stuff leads to the death of the real, diverse, Earth-honoring cultures of the world. Euros will not find their ancestors by playing NDN.
"Frameworks" don't have to be stolen from NDNs. They still exist, for those who are actually part of the cultures in question. I don't agree that a "new paradigm" is needed. That sounds rather nuage to me.
There's nothing new about midlife crises, about people growing older and starting to think more about matters spiritual. Women have always been the predominant gender in churches and other places where people gather to pray for their loved ones. It's the baby boomers who seem to think their (our) generation is somehow unique and having these experiences for the first time. Add white privilege to it and you have tons of embarrassing white women attempting to colonize ways they have no right to, or thinking that if they decorate their thefts in "universal" or Euro bling no one will notice the theft.
By the way, "First Nations" refers specifically to the Indigenous people of Canada. Or that's how First Nations people use it. Not all Indigenous people are "First Nations", and it's inaccurate and misleading to imply that white ancestors are also "First Nations". A group of white people banging fake Plains-style hand drums is not an Indigenous gathering, and it disrespects both the European ancestors and the real First Nations and Native American people.
It sounds as though they helped you and gave you community when you really needed it. Now that you have grown beyond the lies and your integrity has forced you to leave, you are left asking "who am I"? It is the same with many New Age groups but not all are set up to be deliberately fraudulent and often many of them do do some good but because of their lack of true foundations, eventually the cracks begin to show.
The 'Core Shamanism' route 'can' (not always) have similar problems because there is no cultural foundation to base it upon. Having to re-learn and distance oneself (can you tell that I am talking about myself here?) from the only 'family' who have given one community, teaching and healing is incredibly difficult.
I remember speaking to one well respected teacher about sweat lodge. She openly admitted that back in the 60's and 70's, there was nobody to teach them. What they learned came from travelling to the USA and learning directly from 1st nation people there. When they returned to Europe, so many wanted to know, to share and to experience. They yearned for this part of their lives which Christianity had taken away from them but who could teach them? So they did what they were lead by Spirit to do then and shared what they had learned. If it was wrong, then they did not know it. What it did do, however, was to start opening the doors of acceptance and perception to people who had, themselves, been stripped of their own nature based spirituality centuries ago, yet who knew in their hearts this was the truth they were seeking.
Lots of mistakes have been made by every person/ethnic group on the planet but somehow this tide is turning and it is people like you and I who have been there and know the difference who can start to look again at who we are so that we don't make those same mistakes twice.
Whatever lead you to that group 11 years ago, you needed to be there. Now that you don't, this major part of knowing who you really are has started to click into place. Try not to be so hard on yourself. Everything around us teaches us - even a gentle wind teaches us not to urinate in that direction, it's all part of some larger purpose and knowing that you are part of that larger purpose is pretty amazing!
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Saskia... this may need its own thread and not used2bnaf's intro, but... I find these statements very curious coming from you. It makes me uncomfortable seeing you post this stuff and trying to advise him. Care to share with the rest of the board what services you offer on your website, and what organizations and individuals you promote and work with? I just checked your site again, and as far as I can see you have made no changes to it since you joined here. How does that fit with what you are saying above? Why don't you start an intro thread for yourself and tell us again what you are involved with and why you are here?
Again, this is not a site for defending appropriation, finding clients, or making people feel better about participating in cultural genocide. This is the second time you've been asked this.
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Well, if you have been on my web site, which I don't have listed here, you will already have read the about me page and what I say about myself. I don't advertise here because I don't have any need to find clients.
I don't 'offer' anything other than someone to talk to. There are no workshops, no trainings or apprenticeships, no books written and no 'clientele'.
As I have already written above, I am a white, western female living in the UK and of mixed, Scottish, Irish, Gypsy and North European ancestry. One of my recent ancestors was from Ireland with the surname 'Drugan', the etymology of which goes back to the word Druid. Does this mean I AM a Druid? Perhaps not but there is possible a looooong line back to someone who was.
Back as a teenager, I went into the Methodist lay ministry for a while, it didn't fit. For the next 20 years or so you would class me as an atheist until a physical and spiritual crisis in my late 30's. There was no medical answer to my problems and given that I could hardly walk, this was getting to be very serious. No tests found answers or diagnosis and for 3 years I struggled to live both with the debilitating illness and the intense dreams and visions. The trouble is, I didn't know what the dreams and visions meant or even that they meant anything. In desperation I started looking at anything that could help me understand, including tarot which lead me to meet someone who seemed to have a different way of looking at the world and which matched what I instinctively felt too. From that moment on, I read about everything I could, met people, learned and healed amazingly quickly. At first the only people around me who shared this world-view were Core shamanic practitioners. I learned and found both help and problems. Some of what the Spirits were showing me didn't match the Core shamanic teachings. Without the Core shamanic stuff I may not have been lead to another teacher who IS of Siberian heritage and who's genuine, well grounded tradition would inform my own path.
I don't adopt her tradition or path, but instead simply follow what the Spirits indicate. Hence coming here when something doesn't feel right, so as to check and find other views. Just because I am white and western doesn't mean that I or anyone else doesn't have a genuine connection to the Ancestors and Spirits.
Although one could say that I have strong Scots and Irish heritage and I live here, there feels no need to reconstruct anything, become a druid, a 'celtic' this or that or use Gaelic since English is my native language and I use it. English is what the community that I am a part of understand and so that is what I use too, why would I use anything else? There is no need for me to find any kind of exotic label, name, status, language or anything else to give who I am, my heritage or what I believe more credence. I learn from everything and everyone but adopt nothing which isn't mine. A Nepalese shaman once told me, "take the wisdom from the ceremony, not the ceremony itself", absolutely!
Learning from different 1st Nation Elders, Sachems, Sangomas, Maribu-men and Shamans has taught me about the many and varied ways of working around the world. Not everthing is well informed and some supposedly unbroken traditions are anything but that. What seems to run within all these different cultures is the deep respect for Nature, the Spirits and Ancestors and for other people's spiritual experiences. Not one 1st Nation person I have met has challenged my spiritual experiences, dreams or visions as being spurious. In fact we have all been able to relate to certain similarities whilst honouring our often very different backgrounds, culture and heritage.
I've also come across incredible intolerance between tribes and between individuals who's own search for their heritage and inner turmoil expresses itself in name calling and bitterness. This is a sad reflection of their misunderstandings and fears rather than an indication of truth.
There are many wonderful people who the Ancestors and Spirits are trying to communicate with, bringing them to a different way of looking at the world than the Abrahamic cults of the Middle East. The problems which have brought this world to the current social, environmental and economic crisis cannot be solved by more of what caused them in the first place. Many white westerners are aware of this and need the guidance of wise elders, not the egocentric individuals or financial scam artists who this site is set up to identify. There is a need to separate the wheat from the chaff but also there has to be some open mindedness towards those who's path doesn't follow a clear lineage.
My screen name here, 'Saskia' is the diminutive of Alexandra, another of my Ancestors from Europe. I don't use my real name (though you will know it if you have been on my site) as I am not out to convert, covert, gain clients/students (as implied) or otherwise attract anything or anyone. If I were in the business of searching for clients, I would be doing a poor job of it since I don't come here often and completely missed a private message from one person for several months (my apologies). As a moderator, you must be able to see that I didn't read the responses to certain posts and so was not aware of this request for information.
In daily life I run a construction firm, outside of that, if someone comes to me for healing, I won't turn them away but nor do I charge for that either. A donation to a charity is appreciated though and that is entirely up to them if and when they do that. (this was one of the profound problems with core shamanism where my Spirits differed in their teachings)
Every person on the planet can be supportive of others and if the Spirits truly call us to help then what are we to do, go sit in a corner because someone might not like it? There are enough problems dealing with the horrors of the Catholic and Christian churches and their anti-pagan fears without having more divisions between the like-minded. The misunderstandings of white western people who seek to appropriate other cultures may not be wise and likewise the core teachings which attempted to address this, may not be the answer either when they offer prayer at a price or workshops to make you a great pooh bar shaman in 3 easy lessons. However somewhere in the middle is a path of integrity, learning and wisdom which we all have access to by right of being human. All cultures have historically been influenced by others they came into contact with and so it continues today. We can, as different cultures, choose to inform that path that others may follow by showing how to discern the difference between knowledge and wisdom, culture and personal experience, honesty and lies etc.
The term 'Shaman' has so much baggage now that it is almost redundant. From my own practice, I don't use it or any other name. Cunning woman may be a better fit but even then I don't feel qualified to use that due to my lack of deep knowledge of many local plants. A label just doesn't seem important, only honouring, helping and healing do.
If I was so remiss as to offer words of comfort to someone who bared their soul and experiences here then I wonder at the ethos of this site. I have never tried to hide the fact that I was once part of core shamanism but no longer follow a core shamanic route so yes, I have insight into that which perhaps people here do not. It is not ALL bad, there are some truly honest people with integrity and a deep spirit connection that brings healing to others. Most often these people have also learned from 1st Nation teachers and translated that wisdom into their own practice which doesn't appropriate their teachers culture. However to call them 'shameons' demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the way that the Spirits work through those they call to service. Yes there are problems in Core shamanic and neo-shamanic groups but so there are in tribal and 1st Nation groups too.
Who am I? I ask myself that every day and the only answer is that I am me, a white, western woman in her 40s who was called by the Spirits at an early age, lost the way, was brought back to it and lives now to help and learn. Is that what you wanted?
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What I wanted was for you to be honest. You are saying here on NAFPS that your involvement in core shamanism, promotion of frauds and pay to pray is in the past, when your activities on the web say otherwise.
In this post http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2543.msg32127#msg32127 you criticize one of the very people you recommend on your website. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to wonder about these contradictions.
Folk etymology of distant ancestors aside, "Druid" was a title that was earned through long study, apprenticeship, talent, accomplishment and demonstrated skill, and had to be conferred by the elders and community. It was not an hereditary position.
P.S. I see today that you've added a Gaelic link to your site, calling it "Gaelic Books to download". I realize you think Gaelic is "exotic" and that you don't think you need to learn it to speak with the Gaelic ancestors; or learn from those in the living Gaelic cultures; or understand the lore, songs and prayers that have never been translated into English; but here's a tip: That's not a download site. It's a page with the hours for the physical library at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/index_gd.html), the school on the Isle of Skye. :) Even though you don't understand the Gàidhlig, if you go to the top right corner of the page, you can view the page in English. So that should clear things up a bit. :) Beannachdan.
P.P.S. This is actually the page with some downloads on it:
Anns a' Ghàidhlig: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/didseatach_gd.html
And in English: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/didseatach_en.html
Though if you're not making any effort to learn the Gàidhlig, and don't think people need to learn the language of the spirits to communicate with the spirits, it's kind of odd that you put the link there at all.
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Saskia, I'm sorry you are feeling so defensive. Let me give you an example of the many issues with your site (which promotes shamanism). You have an article/review recommending Rima Morrell's book The Sacred Power of Huna: Spirituality and Shamanism in Hawai'i. If you go here http://www.facebook.com/AboutHuna/posts/120859667989551 (http://www.facebook.com/AboutHuna/posts/120859667989551) you can read about the feelings Native Hawaiians about things like this. You are promoting hurting Hawaiian Peoples as well as the fraud and deception of your readers. Is that acceptable? Do you feel that Native Hawaiians are being intolerant and bitter? Could it be that they are desperately trying to preserve and protect their culture while others are trying to profit from it?
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Also, Saskia, you are claiming to have been taught by "First Nations" and "Siberian" shamans, and "Sangomas". I see nothing of the sort on your site, only frauds, a number of whom have threads here. Going by the content on your site, I don't think you've ever met a First Nations person.
As for "Sangomas"... here's one of the guys you promote: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3770
And here's the conference you advertise and recommend on your site: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=551
I realize it's hard to hear that people you've learned from are frauds. Many of us here have had to go through that. I am hoping that you came here willing to learn about how you have been defrauded, and holding the possibility that you will stop participating in fraud, that you will stop promoting frauds. You are clearly doing things that promote cultural genocide. If you are here to learn how to change your ways, you are welcome here, within reason. But if you are here to lie to us, you won't be welcome here much longer. I was hoping that as you read the site and participated some, you would start removing the offensive content from your website. But so far you have not.
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Thanks, Sky, for pointing that out. Yes, native Hawaiians are speaking out against non-Hawaiians who misrepresent indigenous culture and traditions. Rima Morrell's book and "Hawaiian oracle" cards are examples of what many Hawaiians consider cultural genocide.
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Your welcome Pono :)
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Just.. Yes. I Agree with Kathryn and Sky.
Saskia. These people you have learned from. Ok. Hard to say they are frauds because they may have demonstrated some sort of skill or spiritual ability. Beware if they turn that against you.
The fraud comes in to play because they fraudulently portray all the things they claim, not always because they have no gift. To claim being a spiritual person, then find out what one is doing is hurtful to many or even one, and not stop and reconsider, redirect, change.. but to continue on because of one's ego attached to what was maybe a call from Spirit.. is fraud. Well, it's shame. If not fraud. But it is fraud. One cannot claim spiritual and then knowingly continue on in a way that they know is hurtful to one or many.
Spirit may or may not have touched any of these people.. I cannot say if Spirit did or did not.. but Spirit is (to me anyway) not something one alone can decipher. And if roadblock comes up, like finding out what you are doing is hurtful to one or many, then one has to stop. *MUST* stop. Because that is NOT the call of Spirit. Some days, it's like walking one of those mazes.. trying to find the correct avenue for what is within us that Spirit calls to come forth in this world. I like many, do not have lineage. I have to work from what little I know and move only in directions that do not cause harm. And if finding I am harming, then I must stop, back track, begin again.
Perhaps it is this way for many of us white people because of how our ancestors decimated that which we had, and then that which others had (still have) in terms of spirituality. Perhaps we white people now have to walk a maze to find our place again in this world. These are guesses, random thoughts, and probably wrong. But a person cannot just simply *believe* in their self being a "shaman" or whatever term is used to designate any kind/type of "holy" or Spiritual person in any given community. Once a person believes this of their self.. then they've lost the walk, and are walking their ego instead.
I believe these days are critical. And, I believe people, even white people, are born with ability to Spirit. I don't believe it's correct to open up a business and try to look like one knows more than another or can teach to another. Especially where a person has to pay. You speak about the good things in these 'shaman' schools or whathaveyou.. well, I believe if a person is to learn something they will without having to subject their self to this material mindset of these schools that are businesses. The teaching and the learning comes from Spirit and Spirit doesn't require being paid, or having schools. Having schools for spirituality is just so absurd. I think people have lost their minds along with everything else.
People being born in this world need to know how to learn, not what to learn. And to me, how to learn is without books, schools, workshops, etc. (paid or free) from people who don't care enough about others to change what they're doing. Obviously, they are selfish and greedy.. for money or fame or ego feelings. And that makes them frauds.
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Saskia, I'm sorry you are feeling so defensive. Let me give you an example of the many issues with your site (which promotes shamanism). You have an article/review recommending Rima Morrell's book The Sacred Power of Huna: Spirituality and Shamanism in Hawai'i. If you go here http://www.facebook.com/AboutHuna/posts/120859667989551 (http://www.facebook.com/AboutHuna/posts/120859667989551) you can read about the feelings Native Hawaiians about things like this. You are promoting hurting Hawaiian Peoples as well as the fraud and deception of your readers. Is that acceptable? Do you feel that Native Hawaiians are being intolerant and bitter? Could it be that they are desperately trying to preserve and protect their culture while others are trying to profit from it?
Thank you for pointing this out. I will look into it further. If all the information in the book is wrong then it does not deserve to be mentioned. How can anyone tell the difference? Can you tell me what parts of the book (apart from the profiting from it) are incorrect? Where did she get her information from?
I don't know who the people on that facebook page are (is Facebook a viable research tool in the search for truth?) or how they know and understand Hawaiian Spirituality any more than the author of the book. Is there any better evidence of the outcry against this book, perhaps from a recognised and accepted Hawaiian spiritual practitioner? Or am I asking for the impossible because all recognised practitioners are off grid and uncontactable?
I sincerely apologise if this review causes offence, it certainly wasn't intentional.
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What I wanted was for you to be honest. You are saying here on NAFPS that your involvement in core shamanism, promotion of frauds and pay to pray is in the past, when your activities on the web say otherwise.
In this post http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2543.msg32127#msg32127 you criticize one of the very people you recommend on your website. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to wonder about these contradictions.
As I also say in my criticism of this person, they WERE and probably still are a wonderful person but something has gone astray. As I also state on my web site: Worldtree does not attempt to endorse or promote any of the people or establishments listed here. The list is merely those I have met, learned from or have an association with. ‘Learning from’ can mean many things and we don’t necessarily need to ‘follow’ someone’s teaching to have learned from them! To spell this out, it means that sometimes we learn more from someone because they demonstrate to us that which we know is wrong. I wonder how you did not see this disclaimer when clearly the site has been picked over in every other way and the disclaimer is above the new link you mention below.
Folk etymology of distant ancestors aside, "Druid" was a title that was earned through long study, apprenticeship, talent, accomplishment and demonstrated skill, and had to be conferred by the elders and community. It was not an hereditary position.
How do we know that these were not hereditary positions? None of us were there, we only have myth and Roman writings to go from. Again, I never claimed to be Druid or that the title was hereditary, I don't know where you got that from. However, from the aspect of Ancestral influence, it is entirely possible that one of my distant ancestors was - who knows? A great deal has been lost.
P.S. I see today that you've added a Gaelic link to your site, calling it "Gaelic Books to download". I realize you think Gaelic is "exotic" and that you don't think you need to learn it to speak with the Gaelic ancestors; or learn from those in the living Gaelic cultures; or understand the lore, songs and prayers that have never been translated into English; but here's a tip: That's not a download site. It's a page with the hours for the physical library at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/index_gd.html), the school on the Isle of Skye. :) Even though you don't understand the Gàidhlig, if you go to the top right corner of the page, you can view the page in English. So that should clear things up a bit. :) Beannachdan.
P.P.S. This is actually the page with some downloads on it:
Anns a' Ghàidhlig: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/didseatach_gd.html
And in English: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Leabharlann/didseatach_en.html
Though if you're not making any effort to learn the Gàidhlig, and don't think people need to learn the language of the spirits to communicate with the spirits, it's kind of odd that you put the link there at all.
The link has been there for many months. I'm really not sure what you are pointing this out for. The English translation on that page says:
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig Library is committed to developing, and making available, a definitive collection of resources relating to the Scottish Gaelic language, culture and heritage, in order to encourage learning, research and scholarship; to support the College in its role as a centre of excellence for Gaelic; and promote self-confidence within the Gaidhealtachd in its own literary and cultural achievements.
For those who may wish to look into Scots Gaelic, I don't see why this link is a problem to those here on the NAFPS?
Why do you feel the need to have a signature in Gaelic? I have never said that I feel Gaelic is 'exotic' only that is isn't my native language so why would I use it? How does it define who I am? Why would I feel that I need it? Like people who have some Latin quote under their name or use 'A-Ho' at the beginning of their posts. It's just about being honest to who I am that's all.
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Also, Saskia, you are claiming to have been taught by "First Nations" and "Siberian" shamans, and "Sangomas". I see nothing of the sort on your site, only frauds, a number of whom have threads here. Going by the content on your site, I don't think you've ever met a First Nations person.
I don't claim to have been 'taught' as in apprenticed - only that I have met and learned from. We all do this, we all learn from others when we meet them. Again. The disclaimer . . .
As for "Sangomas"... here's one of the guys you promote: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3770
And here's the conference you advertise and recommend on your site: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=551
I realize it's hard to hear that people you've learned from are frauds. Many of us here have had to go through that. I am hoping that you came here willing to learn about how you have been defrauded, and holding the possibility that you will stop participating in fraud, that you will stop promoting frauds. You are clearly doing things that promote cultural genocide. If you are here to learn how to change your ways, you are welcome here, within reason. But if you are here to lie to us, you won't be welcome here much longer. I was hoping that as you read the site and participated some, you would start removing the offensive content from your website. But so far you have not.
This is the first year that I have not attended the conference, there were too many issues that I could not resolve. I agree that there are problems with much of the way that western shamanic/spiritual practice is promoted and undertaken. It is one reason why I come here on occasion. With regard to John Kelly-Lockley. He has the backing of his teachers in S-Africa, he makes no attempt to hide his origins and anyone is free to contact his teachers if they so wish. It's not my personal thing but . . .
http://www.african-shaman.com/index.php/ubuntu-fund/
If his teachers and adoptive family are unhappy with him working in their medicine ways, I wonder why they stand to have their picture taken with him in his full regalia? He has dozens of these photos, different ones every year when he returns. He also actively uses the money he makes to support the Ubuntu and raise awareness to preserve their traditions. They may not be able to easily get out of S Africa (most are poor women who, even if given the funds, could not leave their families to travel around the world).
I note the book that is referenced in that thread about him. A book written by a white person which is now used against someone. Which is it? Are books to be used as references or not? If a white person writes about black beliefs can we believe it?
The people I have met all over the world I may have only had a couple of hours with or a few days to a few weeks. They were not apprenticing me but we shared understanding and learned about oneanother's beliefs. THAT is what I mean by learning - when we LISTEN between the words.
If I start name dropping now, I will be dishonouring some of the traditions from which those people come. If I cannot prove to you who I have met, then I am a fraud. It seems that there is no right way even when white people see through the problems and want to find ways to change them.
Apparently several others who attend the conference, had expressed similar views to mine and found a great deal which was worrying. Things are starting to change this year as I have already posted.
Lets not forget, there is no culture on the planet which has a perfect track record, we all make mistakes and for those of us trying to research into our heritage or find ways to our own spiritual truth, we are human and make mistakes.
I am no different but I am TRYING to find a good path. It seems that whatever we do, someone will find fault even if they have never met us.
What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight? I don't even see that here on this site. How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers? Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this? Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored? We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity. No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.
Where there is something wrong, lets have the integrity to stand up and say so but always with an open mind that each one of us is trying to find our way without deliberate and intentionally harming others.
IF this is about finding a true spiritual path of healing and support with integrity, then we are going to have to drop the hate filled stuff sooner or later and start sharing and learning from one another. We white, non-1st nation people may me misguided in what we start off trying to learn but who is there to help and guide us? Most of us, me included, were brought up to ignore dreams as being fantasy. To admit to having a vision when you are a child or seeing spirits was to guarantee a psychological evaluation and a stay in the psychiatric hospital. The natural, spiritual connection has been brutally suppressed in our society so now that some of us are desperately seeking to redress that, who helps us to know how to follow that in truth? There is nobody.
Yes, I do feel somewhat defensive because some of what is posted on this site by the moderators and admin is not well researched and seems determined to find fault rather than truth. Likewise there is a need to also point out those who can clearly be proven to be deliberately leading others astray.
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Just.. Yes. I Agree with Kathryn and Sky.
Saskia. These people you have learned from. Ok. Hard to say they are frauds because they may have demonstrated some sort of skill or spiritual ability. Beware if they turn that against you.
The fraud comes in to play because they fraudulently portray all the things they claim, not always because they have no gift. To claim being a spiritual person, then find out what one is doing is hurtful to many or even one, and not stop and reconsider, redirect, change.. but to continue on because of one's ego attached to what was maybe a call from Spirit.. is fraud. Well, it's shame. If not fraud. But it is fraud. One cannot claim spiritual and then knowingly continue on in a way that they know is hurtful to one or many.
Spirit may or may not have touched any of these people.. I cannot say if Spirit did or did not.. but Spirit is (to me anyway) not something one alone can decipher. And if roadblock comes up, like finding out what you are doing is hurtful to one or many, then one has to stop. *MUST* stop. Because that is NOT the call of Spirit. Some days, it's like walking one of those mazes.. trying to find the correct avenue for what is within us that Spirit calls to come forth in this world. I like many, do not have lineage. I have to work from what little I know and move only in directions that do not cause harm. And if finding I am harming, then I must stop, back track, begin again.
Perhaps it is this way for many of us white people because of how our ancestors decimated that which we had, and then that which others had (still have) in terms of spirituality. Perhaps we white people now have to walk a maze to find our place again in this world. These are guesses, random thoughts, and probably wrong. But a person cannot just simply *believe* in their self being a "shaman" or whatever term is used to designate any kind/type of "holy" or Spiritual person in any given community. Once a person believes this of their self.. then they've lost the walk, and are walking their ego instead.
I believe these days are critical. And, I believe people, even white people, are born with ability to Spirit. I don't believe it's correct to open up a business and try to look like one knows more than another or can teach to another. Especially where a person has to pay. You speak about the good things in these 'shaman' schools or whathaveyou.. well, I believe if a person is to learn something they will without having to subject their self to this material mindset of these schools that are businesses. The teaching and the learning comes from Spirit and Spirit doesn't require being paid, or having schools. Having schools for spirituality is just so absurd. I think people have lost their minds along with everything else.
People being born in this world need to know how to learn, not what to learn. And to me, how to learn is without books, schools, workshops, etc. (paid or free) from people who don't care enough about others to change what they're doing. Obviously, they are selfish and greedy.. for money or fame or ego feelings. And that makes them frauds.
I agree and will be reconsidering how I present information on my web site. What I present and how it fits with what I believe now as opposed to several years ago.
Your comments have hit a truth about stopping to reassess and looking back at what we do and the impact it has. We all need to do that. We can all be wrong.
It is funny but only yesterday I had a request via the web site for information on my beliefs to be sent to someone 'incarcerated'. They asked for a catalogue??? I have to assume that someone from here did this in a transparent attempt to get me to somehow say something that could be used against me. I'm not suggesting it was you. Such tactics are interesting in what they say on many levels.
I haven't really updated my website in many, many months, I can't remember when it was last done. Perhaps I should be less ambivalent. Thank you all for bringing these concerns to me. I will go look at what you suggest and see what research I can do too.
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I agree and will be reconsidering how I present information on my web site. What I present and how it fits with what I believe now as opposed to several years ago.
Your comments have hit a truth about stopping to reassess and looking back at what we do and the impact it has. We all need to do that. We can all be wrong.
It is funny but only yesterday I had a request via the web site for information on my beliefs to be sent to someone 'incarcerated'. They asked for a catalogue??? I have to assume that someone from here did this in a transparent attempt to get me to somehow say something that could be used against me. I'm not suggesting it was you. Such tactics are interesting in what they say on many levels.
I haven't really updated my website in many, many months, I can't remember when it was last done. Perhaps I should be less ambivalent. Thank you all for bringing these concerns to me. I will go look at what you suggest and see what research I can do too.
Um No. Wouldn't be me. I don't play games nor do I sneak about. There is no need to as people will undoubtedly trip their own selves up.
I don't believe in reading books to learn spiritual matters. It's just my belief. Others believe differently. But I don't believe in it. I've met way too many people who read way too many books, and all I ever get from them in conversation is a regurgitation of what they've read, and often, an imagination that they have experienced what they have read. And then when they're able to regurgitate it in a new imaginative way, they write their own book.
My personal experience taught me that the mind is capable of such trickery. But, in our society, basically, western white dominated society, we are taught that everything can be learned from books and schools. We read the books, we go to the schools, we answer the questions correctly. And it means we have learned it, and then we get a paper saying we are authorized, that we have learned it. This is foolish when it comes to the spiritual. There are no books for this. There are no schools. There are no degrees to earn to become a "healer" or a "shaman" or a whatever else someone wants to teach in these schools and books. All there is in books is ideas and thoughts. Mind food. Sure, books are good to help us learn history, or science, or any other academic. But when it comes to "spirituality" books can only present an idea. They cannot present the spirituality. That can only be learned in living.
Sure, it's good to open the mind to new ideas and thoughts. But what happens is people forget it is only ideas and thoughts, and begin to believe it is teaching them spirituality. It may be giving their minds the idea of spirituality, but it is only in their minds. And in my experience, I have found this mass of books on spirituality has harmed people more so than helped them.
As you said, how can anyone tell when it is false? When it's too late? When they're dead and it's too late to drop it from their minds and live a real life?
I understand there is desire to tell people about what has been learned spiritually. I understand there is desire to try and help those wanting to know. But, is it an individual's desire that is most important? Most things are not for public knowledge, most things are personal. So why are these people putting all this into books? So they can make money. So they can feel important. So they can be "accredited". So others will come to them, seeking this spiritual knowledge. What an ego ride.
So no. I am not about books for spiritual knowledge. I don't believe in them.
Regarding your comment about where is it white people can go for guidance, again, this is habitual thinking and acting taught from our society. Why do they need to go somewhere? If they've experienced something, then the guidance is already there. And if something more is needed, then it will come to them. It might be years. But why the hurry?
This society, the culture of it, is so cued on getting instant access. Instant access doesn't apply to spirituality. It may take years before the answers come on what one has experienced. This isn't a fast highway with pit stops. One just simply lives and tries to live in a good way without knowingly causing harm to others. And what comes of living in a good way comes.
This white dominate culture is habituated into thinking that they can have whatever they want, either by paying for it, or by forcing others to give it to them. That isn't how this works. You can whine, beg, pray, give up all your worldly goods, and still.. not get what you want. Now there's tons of people believing they can get what they want via the "law of attraction" bullsh*t. More confusion, more harm being done to people because of these books.
The point is, no one owes anyone this spiritual guidance that you mention. And seeking it is fruitless. Spiritual guidance comes to a person the same way spirituality comes, by Spirit and in it's own time. How can the person seeking guidance know what guidance they need? They don't. They have to wait it out, and in the meantime, keep living a good life.
Sorry for this long rant. I just don't think these new age type people get it, and this is my effort out of my own beliefs. I am not speaking for anyone but of my own being. Thank you.
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What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight? I don't even see that here on this site. How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers? Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this? Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored? We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity. No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.
Indigenous Knowledge, people's way of life and spirit, is not a commodity for you to buy, barter, steal, or mangle and re-sell as your own.
Please read the main page of the website, and the pinned threads in all the sections, as we ask all new participants to do. This will help explain to you how Indigenous ways belong to the communities who have inherited and maintain them. They are not for public consumption, and not even everyone in an Indigenous community has rights to ceremonies. These things have to be earned in a traditional manner, and they are not for outsiders. It is not your right, or mine, to decide this; the communities themselves are sovereign and have already decided. You are coming at this from a perspective that is completely incompatible with traditional communities and traditional knowledge, and acting as if you have a right to things you simply have no right to.
Indigenous people who are protecting their cultures from cultural genocide are not "hateful" and it is racist of you to accuse them of that. Please read the things on the board about white privilege and entitlement.
There are many non-Native people who are slowly but surely learning the ways of our own ancestors. But if you can find your way to a committed, grounded community, you will also find that the standards are similar to those of the other living cultures - it's not workshop culture, it's not pay-to-pray, it's not brief meetings and then going and selling fragments of a community's knowledge. It's about real community and lifetime commitment, it's about language and cultural preservation, extended family, and functioning in a traditional manner of checks and balances. It's completely different from everything you are promoting.
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P.S. - No one said that linking to Sabhal Mòr Ostaig was "a problem". If you'd actually read the board, you would have seen we already have links here to SMO, and have discussed the school before, in very positive terms. Gaelic-oriented members of our community have studied at SMO, and some of us maintain an ongoing relationship with them. They are an excellent resource for not only language but also music and other aspects of culture. What I was saying, if you would again read what I said, is that the page you linked to was not what you were claiming it was. This is understandable, as you have no Gaelic and see no need to understand Gàidhlig (yet you feel free to opine on the ways of the Gaelic-speaking ancestors). If you actually read what I said you will see that I corrected your mistake and posted the URL that goes to the SMO downloads page. This seems abundantly clear to me, so it makes me again question your motives in being here.
This site is for fighting fraud, not retreading all the reasons why we do so.
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You ask how can one know whether a book is or is not authentic Hawaiian? Was it published in Hawai‘i by a reputable company such as Kamehameha Press, Bishop Museum, University of Hawai‘i, Mutual, Koa, Queen Lili‘uokalani? Was it written by native Hawaiians? Though not every authentic book meets these criteria, you could spend years reading all the books that do meet these criteria, and by then you would be able to tell that Huna is not Hawaiian.
Conversely, if you see references to the Three Selves, Three Souls, Three Spirits or Three Consciousnesses, it is Huna.
So that we have the information readily accessible, I have posted a new thread dedicated to Huna http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3838.0, and also posted some authentic books on the thread on Native Hawaiian resources here http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=773.0
You will see at the Huna thread references to peer-reviewed journals and books written by Hawaiians all saying that Huna is not Hawaiian.
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What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight? I don't even see that here on this site. How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers? Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this? Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored? We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity. No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.
Indigenous Knowledge, people's way of life and spirit, is not a commodity for you to buy, barter, steal, or mangle and re-sell as your own.
Please read the main page of the website, and the pinned threads in all the sections, as we ask all new participants to do. This will help explain to you how Indigenous ways belong to the communities who have inherited and maintain them. They are not for public consumption, and not even everyone in an Indigenous community has rights to ceremonies. These things have to be earned in a traditional manner, and they are not for outsiders. It is not your right, or mine, to decide this; the communities themselves are sovereign and have already decided. You are coming at this from a perspective that is completely incompatible with traditional communities and traditional knowledge, and acting as if you have a right to things you simply have no right to.
Indigenous people who are protecting their cultures from cultural genocide are not "hateful" and it is racist of you to accuse them of that. Please read the things on the board about white privilege and entitlement.
There are many non-Native people who are slowly but surely learning the ways of our own ancestors. But if you can find your way to a committed, grounded community, you will also find that the standards are similar to those of the other living cultures - it's not workshop culture, it's not pay-to-pray, it's not brief meetings and then going and selling fragments of a community's knowledge. It's about real community and lifetime commitment, it's about language and cultural preservation, extended family, and functioning in a traditional manner of checks and balances. It's completely different from everything you are promoting.
What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight? I don't even see that here on this site. How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers?
I ask you why you would think we need to meet with you to explain all the thing wrong in books that you write about us? You dont listen in the first place when we tell it is wrong top follow our ways. Our ways not for sell or use by other cultures that is stealing, why do you want to learn about other people ways? You do know us if you want to set the record straight then it is your responsiblity to meet us on our grounds.
How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers?
Why do you want to learn our culture when people start STEALING other people culture they getit wrong do it wrong, so I wonder what is wrong with their own culture all cultures are good if thing go bad it is because people are not following those core morals and values of the culture.
Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this? Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored?
There are plenty of Native people who open their homes and lives to non native to be shocked by the non Natives behavior afterward, where people have taken what little they learn from our culture and make money, change our beliefs, add things that dont belong and you end up with something so strange that it dont make sense anymore. I have never seen hated for white people as the problem it the abuse of our culture by white people. It is this concept of white privledge you have the right to learn our ways and in our ways you dont.
We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity. No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.
We believe that everyone must learn to be a human being when we are Human being we learn compassion, honesty, and goodwill to man, our culture tells to pray for all races of man, I will tell you our chemical makeup is different and our DNA is different from your. Your concept of no one culture has exclusive rights over the spirit-i never heard Native say that nor would we, but we do not need to give information to people who we dont know. It is right to say No as a people.
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In the quotes above are two common themes from New Agers. One is the demand that Native Americans, Native Hawaiian or other native peoples share their cultural wisdom. This is the height of cultural imperialism. The United Nations Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples states that indigenous peoples have the right to control and protect their cultural heritage, traditional knowledge, and traditional cultural expressions, including oral traditions, literatures, and designs (Article 31). "Control" means the right to decide whether, under what circumstances, and to whom they choose to share their knowledge. Outsiders do not have the right to demand it.
The second common theme is "we are all one." The UN Declaration provides that indigenous peoples have the right to their integrity as distinct peoples with their own cultural values (Article 8 ).
By claiming we are all the same the beautiful uniqueness of indigenous cultures is denied. Indeed, the idea that there is one "Native American" tradition is frequently stated by New Agers, despite all the evidence to the contrary that there are hundreds of traditions, each unique to its tribe.
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Well, it seems that no matter what I say, only certain concerns are taken up and other points are glossed over entirely. I have never claimed to have taken any native teachings as part of my own practice or culture only to have learned from them. There is a big difference and anyone alive who claims to have only ever learned from their own culture is misguided. I made a mistake with the book review on Huna and have corrected that mistake as you can now see on my website but somehow that is also not mentioned.
When we (ALL) make mistakes it seems there is a human aspect within each of us for forgiveness, healing and learning yet here on this site the search for truth is undermined by an endemic political schadenfreude. It was mentioned that John Kelly Lockley was a fraud and I have commented on how his fees go back to his people yet nobody is interested in how a white guy who has genuinely been adopted and initiated into a black SA tribe can possibly be for real. All that anyone here wants to do is pick on the white people who genuinely search for spiritual understanding. Is that me being racist?
Yes we get it wrong and some of us will hold our hand up when it is pointed out that we have. But I strongly disagree with many things said here. Books are not a source of spiritual wisdom, that is true but they are the means by which information is shared (information does not equal wisdom - we are talking two separate things here). So to vilify all books on spiritual matters seems odd. However, I do take the point that books can also be misleading without good guidance from the experienced and knowledgeable. We are only recently discovering new insights into Longhouse traditions and ceremonies as written down by a 17thC Russian fur trapper's wife in her diary. The translation into German has made this information more readily available and can now be accessed by the people of the Longhouse to learn about some ancient practices that are not known about today. Without books we would not be able to research our Gaelic heritage either but I agree, books can only give information which is always filtered through the psychology of the reader.
When I wrote the Huna review, years ago, I knew no better - there were no other sources online or anywhere else and yes it seemed credible. I admit it, I am curious, eager to learn and fascinated by all beliefs around the world and have travelled to a few of them. I don't, however, adopt them - there is a big difference. Would it not have been more generous to have sent me a private message to point out how that book is inappropriate, show me (or anyone else you have a problem with) a different view? This kind of public witch hunt may serve to alert the public to true criminals but does little to foster trust and good relationships between people.
Thank you Pono Aloha for the information on Hawaiian beliefs. One thing I must say though is that 'New Agers' or Neo - spiritual seekers do not demand anything. The vast majority would like to learn and they respect other culture's beliefs even if they don't agree with them. The 'We are all one' aspect is more of an attempt to bring people together WITH their cultural differences intact rather than homogenising the whole. However if you have actually been to a neo-pagan/shamanic conference and witnessed this, I bow to your experience. Personally, I've seen some inappropriate stuff going on and spoken up about it but never felt either of the 'common themes' that you mention. Perhaps there are misunderstandings on both sides?
Indigenous Knowledge, people's way of life and spirit, is not a commodity for you to buy, barter, steal, or mangle and re-sell as your own.
Nor have I ever believed that or done so but you seem to think that anyone who mentions having contact with 'Native' people is somehow a fraud. There is a large and growing movement in both Native and New-Age circles that questions the true value and eithics of a site like this when anger outweighs truth. My comment was on the validity of every human being's search for their OWN spiritual path. It seems to be a catch 22 situation, those of us who wish to learn will be damned for trying and making mistakes where nobody with that wisdom will step forward and help or we will be damned by listening to the cathartic comments on here which tell us we cannot possibly have learned by listening to a 1st Nation teacher because that is intrinsically wrong. The link to the Gaelic site on my links page has obviously changed since I put it there years ago - it has both Gaelic and English translations so even I can read it. Thanks for letting me know it had changed.
IF people want to get along, share and learn to make the whole world a better place; if we recognise the need for the problems of the world to be addressed by different ways of thinking then we have to find common ground, not walls and divisions. By highlighting clear frauds and scams we all help to address problems but we have to be sure and take care to see what damage we can cause along the way. By attacking anyone who dares to build bridges, learn and perhaps along the way, make mistakes, we demonstrate our own pain not the truth of anything.
I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused. There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here. I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.
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We are only recently discovering new insights into Longhouse traditions and ceremonies as written down by a 17thC Russian fur trapper's wife in her diary. The translation into German has made this information more readily available and can now be accessed by the people of the Longhouse to learn about some ancient practices that are not known about today.
Why or how could a German person use the ceremony of the Longhouse? And now with this book, they'll create something absurd and call it "traditional"? Unless there's some Longhouse traditions that are German? And they can access their ancestors and live in the culture that knows the spirits of these ceremonies?
You miss the point to some degree on all of this. No one is saying cultures cannot share and talk and learn from one another, but what happens is people with no understanding of a culture, observe a ceremony and then go talk about it like they know what it is, and then teach it for money and sell participation in it as well. That is not right.
You don't seem to understand that some cultures do not allow their ceremonies or teachings to be public domain. But you think they should because the culture you grew up in has it that way? Where is that respectful? To respect another culture means you respect them. Including their belief that their ceremonies and teachings are private and to be contained within their own culture and peoples. You should be able to respect when you are told no, instead of whining that the world can't get along without it.
The world can't get along because too many people are selfish spoiled people.. who if they can't get what they want, steal it. Or steal what it looks like and fill in the rest with their own imaginings. The vast majority of new age peoples are out for money. The small few who really want to learn something don't understand boundaries or that purchasing spiritual identity through workshops and the like is as wrong as selling it.
The world would get along much better if people stopped looking to others for their spiritual growth and looked to their own self. You continue to sound as though the Native/Indigenous peoples of the world owe it to everyone to give their knowledge to them. Why?
You don't address why you feel this way, or why it is wrong to think this. You just blame them for the world being so hopeless as though they're at fault here. Maybe people need to understand first the word "No" before they can understand anything else.
Also, you obviously haven't read through the research pages.. what do you think that means? Research. People are researched before moved to the frauds section. So I fail to understand your statement that research needs to be done before believing what is written. You believe what is written when it sounds good.. don't you? Do you do your own research into everything you read? Probably not, so you assume others don't either. I mean, if you truly researched all these new age people claiming their knowledge from this or that person/tribe/culture then maybe you'd begin to see the real pattern here.
Also, I have not encountered the catch 22 thing. And I am a white person. I am learning as I go along. I didn't learn from books. Nor did I approach people and demand, yes, demand that they share with me. You don't see it as a demand. The vast majority of new agers would like to learn.. but they don't. They take and change it to what they "think" it is and never accept that it takes an actual "lifetime" to learn, not a workshop and not even a one or two or 1000 times in a bonefide real ceremony environment.
What you call "like to learn" is actually them demanding to have access to that which they don't have permission to have.
Well, done here. I don't think you'll really understand and will continue to think there is something wrong with people who's cultures are different than how you think it should be. Which is a lack of respect, btw..
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1. All that anyone here wants to do is pick on the white people who genuinely search for spiritual understanding. Is that me being racist?
2... to vilify all books on spiritual matters seems odd.
3. This kind of public witch hunt may serve to alert the public to true criminals but does little to foster trust and good relationships between people.
4. One thing I must say though is that 'New Agers' or Neo - spiritual seekers do not demand anything. The vast majority would like to learn and they respect other culture's beliefs even if they don't agree with them.
5. There is a large and growing movement in both Native and New-Age circles that questions the true value and eithics of a site like this when anger outweighs truth.
6. It seems to be a catch 22 situation, those of us who wish to learn will be damned for trying and making mistakes where nobody with that wisdom will step forward and help...
7. By attacking anyone who dares to build bridges, learn and perhaps along the way, make mistakes, we demonstrate our own pain not the truth of anything.
8. I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused. There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here. I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.
1. No, but it is you bringing race into a topic when it's not needed or relevant. Your critics include both Native and non-Native. And whites seem to be some of the ones bringing up these topics most forcefully.
2. To use hyberbole like "villify" seems pretty strange. All that one person said was that one can't entirely or mostly rely on books for spiritual matters.
3. Again, your persecution complex is ridiculous. How is asking questions the same as burning people alive? You insult the memory of genuine murder victims of religious persecution when you compare yourself to them.
4. Over a dozen years' experience at NAFPS shows that not to be true. Nuagers demand all the the time. Otherwise there would not be a market for instant shame-ons for a 19.99 book or a 300 to 3000 dollar seminar to make one a shame-on in ten easy steps.
5. Where is this supposed movement? I challenge you to show it to us.
If you seriously think this site is "angry" when we have strict rules of conduct and kick people out for abusing them, then you must be a special delicate flower living in a very sheltered hothouse world.
If you want to truly see Native anger over Nuage fraud, go to Indianz.com.
6. You're not being "attacked for making mistakes" but being criticized for current behavior. And demanding "people with wisdom step forward" is, yes, a demand from you that you just claimed Nuagers never make.
It is not the responsibility of NDNs or anyone else to help you on your spiritual quest. Think of how arrogant that sounds. "Uh, Native people, I know you have serious problems with poverty and sacred sites in danger of being lost, but do ya think you could help out whites trying to figure out the meaning of life?"
I do see this site and its people as doing an enormous amount of good in preventing people from any background from being harmed by frauds, and of preventing those frauds from spreading lies about Native ways. But helping guide you on a spiritual quest is not something we will ever do. How long do you think it would be before there would be crowds of Nuagers coming in asking "Tell me how to live my life, pleeeease!"
7. That is quite egotistical of you to think of yourself like that, to claim to be building bridges. What you did was certainly not "daring". By your own account, you made mistakes. And you admit them, so that's a hopeful step forward.
Again, criticism does not equal "attacks."
8. I see that as a good step forward. Thanks to you as well.
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8. I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused. There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here. I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.
8. I see that as a good step forward. Thanks to you as well.
Actually, though a link to NAFPS and a disclaimer has been added on the lower left of the page, right up top she is still promoting frauds on her site; both at the top of the links list and right on the front page.
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As this is the same thing we just went through with Snorks, I think these criteria Al wrote for Snorks also apply to you, "Saskia". Email us when you're serious about stopping your exploitation of Indigenous people:
IMO the only way to prove she's truly changed:
Not just removing shame on and selling healing pages, but putting in its place a public apology and admission of wrongdoing.
Also refunding money to anyone who paid her.