Author Topic: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?  (Read 36948 times)

Offline RunsWithScissorz

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2015, 11:26:01 pm »
Thank you, Praxis, for your understanding. 

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2015, 11:40:00 pm »
Because of my position as both a psychonaut and as a political organizer/activist, I feel I have a sort of a responsibility to act as an outlet, conduit, or bridge between the two worlds. I believe psychedelics in the hands of people who are politically conscious are powerful tools for transformation....and I will firmly stand by this even though many (most) of you might adamantly disagree. These drugs in the hands of people who view the world through the lens of white-supremacy and privilege create more harm than good, and this is the dominant trend right now.
The gist of where you're coming from, you actually boiled down yourself here... If you had simply stated this in the beginning, this entire thread could have been avoided because all the concessions you made verbally, you're still ignoring and will probably do so on the future. I would bet on it.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2015, 12:15:13 am »
Praxis,

Are you aware that the indigenous medicines that you named were introduced to the dominant culture by Albert Hofmann and to a certain extent Ernst Jünger (who was not a very nice person)? Hofmann was primarily responsible for bringing something sacred that did not belong to him to for the most part privileged white young people. That is how they arrived in their place of use among the activist community.

Sky

Offline Thyme4Mind

  • Posts: 35
Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2015, 12:19:15 am »
Because of my position as both a psychonaut and as a political organizer/activist, I feel I have a sort of a responsibility to act as an outlet, conduit, or bridge between the two worlds. I believe psychedelics in the hands of people who are politically conscious are powerful tools for transformation....and I will firmly stand by this even though many (most) of you might adamantly disagree. These drugs in the hands of people who view the world through the lens of white-supremacy and privilege create more harm than good, and this is the dominant trend right now.
The gist of where you're coming from, you actually boiled down yourself here... If you had simply stated this in the beginning, this entire thread could have been avoided because all the concessions you made verbally, you're still ignoring and will probably do so on the future. I would bet on it.

I stated this right off the bat.

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I've made it part of my goals to work towards integrating psychedelic medicine into a paradigm where it's utilized by front-line communities that would actually benefit from it; eg communities who have suffered traumas as a result of systemic oppression, who do not have access to, or would not benefit from, traditional Western models of healing. I want to ensure that the cultures who first shared these tools with the world are fairly represented wherever they are being used, and that their customs and beliefs are not taken out of context and packed into a neat little new-age box. Because of their nature to decondition individuals from larger cultural paradigms, I am also interested in using these medicines as tools for decolonization, and Ive been developing and furthering my analysis of neo-colonialism within the context of ayahuasca tourism

What would you bet on? That I wont use ayahuasca without consent? I don't know on what you base your claim, as I made it very clear from the beginning that I am interested in psychedelics and use them myself. I don't understand why this means that I can't hold my word? Ayahuasca et al are not the only psychedelics in the world, I have many other options and they've been suiting my needs just fine now for many years. I don't think that's about to change. When I say that I will not drink ayahuasca or take any other medicine deemed sacred by ndn people I mean it, and I will hold to that. I obviously can't prove this to you but I don't believe I need to. You can doubt my integrity as much you want but I would hope that my actions on this forum speak differently about my character. Maybe they do, and if that's the case please let me know where I went wrong. But otherwise I seriously resent your accusation and I don't think you would have made it in the first place if you actually went back and read my words. Im not going to pick out each and every quote (I can if you're unconvinced); but I believe I said several other times that I take psychedelics because I see them as powerful tools and that as an anti-racist activist I would like to synthesize my political analysis with what I've learned from psychedelia.

Come on now.... :-\

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2015, 12:30:22 am »
I believe I said several other times that I take psychedelics because I see them as powerful tools and that as an anti-racist activist I would like to synthesize my political analysis with what I've learned from psychedelia.

Come on now.... :-\

Praxis, please research the individuals who introduced and promoted psychedelics to the counter culture.  They were white men catering to white people. How can something born from racism, for the most part taken from indigenous peoples without their permission, be a powerful tool?  I'd really like your take on that.

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2015, 12:38:36 am »
C'mon now yourself, Praxis... You state clearly that you're a psychonaut (kinda can't be one without actually using said psychoactives) and even though you ARE NOT FROM THE CULTURE YOU'RE APPROPRIATING FROM, you take it upon yourself to decide who uses it outside that culture and why. Your motivation of racists and weirdos having it in their possession and deciding YOU need to prevent this/inform properly/etc is the epitome of the abuse of privilege. You clearly state that even though Natives here and among the ayuhuasca cultures will adamantly disagree, you're still saying it's a transformative "tool" when in fact bridging whatever perceived gap you see between these cultures does nothing but enable those who will misuse these substances. Point blank. Whatever your intentions, that's what happens. It's been repeated on this thread and all throughout this entire forum as well as being discussed in the pre-Internet days of Native cultural appropriation and the misuse/abuse of our sacred rites and substances. I don't care if you use or not. That's on you. What is not accepted here is pretension and ulterior motive, if you had not noticed.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline Thyme4Mind

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2015, 01:30:36 am »
Praxis,

Are you aware that the indigenous medicines that you named were introduced to the dominant culture by Albert Hofmann and to a certain extent Ernst Jünger (who was not a very nice person)? Hofmann was primarily responsible for bringing something sacred that did not belong to him to for the most part privileged white young people. That is how they arrived in their place of use among the activist community.

Sky

Albert Hoffman is responsible for being the first person to synthesize LSD. Aldous Huxley is responsible for introducing the psycho-active effects of mescaline (the most predominant alkaloid in peyote, san pedro et al) to Western culture, but it was really Terence Mckenna and a host of other nuage anthropologists responsible for popularizing ayahuasca as well as sacred cacti. Albert Hoffman has written about these plants but he himself did not introduce them to Western consciousness. While I think it's fair to say that he played a part in this process he is certainly not responsible. Guilt by association doesn't apply here.

And secondly I would like to respectfully ask why it matters who introduced those medicines to dominant culture? Whether is was Hoffman or Mckenna or Wasson or Hancock or any on the long list of others....I never said that I was inspired by them or drew ideas from them or had any association with their work. I'm not promoting the use of indigenous medicines, that was the whole point of me starting this thread. I had some questions and the community answered them. And that's great. I wont ever take these medicines and I'm ok with that. I never said I used indigenous medicines extensively, I used ayahuasca once and felt bad about it and thats why I came here. It's not as though I'm giving anything up.

Im not trying to convince people here that psychedelics are good or bad. You're welcome to your own opinion about them but please stop trying to call my character into question because of my personal choices. And I don't appreciate being assumed guilty simply because of association. I like psychedelics, that doesn't make me Terence Mckenna or Albert Hoffman. Sorry if you don't like them but I dunno what else to tell you.

EDIT: You've made another post as I was writing this up.

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Praxis, please research the individuals who introduced and promoted psychedelics to the counter culture.  They were white men catering to white people. How can something born from racism, for the most part taken from indigenous peoples without their permission, be a powerful tool?  I'd really like your take on that.

I think it's important to understand psychedelic history in the West. Psychedelic plants have been used on every continent for varying purposes throughout human history. A lot of nuagers might exploit this fact and take it out of context, but it is pretty well established that the use of hallucinogens is not a novel thing and it's not specific to just ndn people. Let me be clear here: I'm NOT saying that just because European Pagans might have once used mushrooms that gives white people the right to take any plant from any culture that they want for their own uses. The cultural contexts from which they come is incredibly important, and I think that's why we see so many burnouts in psychedelic culture. Dominant society lacks that cultural framework which is desperately needed to integrate the psychedelic experience, and often people are led astray and their use quickly turns into abuse and escapism. This is one of the many reasons that these medicines SHOULD NOT be taken outside of their original cultural context.

So, by the time the Europeans had colonized the Americas they had long since repressed the usage of many medicines including psychedelics. They persecuted ndn people for their choice of sacraments and built a nation based on their own values. Fast forward to the 1940's: Albert Hoffman synthesized LSD several years earlier, and it was not until now that he discovered it's psycho active properties. He is astonished by it and believes it could be a valuable tool for psychotherapists. Sandoz LSD is sent to doctors and psychologists and shows a lot of promise, but ends up widely circulated by the middle class youth. LSD was the first psychedelic to become popular in the West and it had absolutely nothing to do with the appropriation of indigenous culture. The discovery of LSD and the subsequent period of large-scale use and abuse opened an entirely new doorway for the white middle class who never knew such things existed. Anyone who knew how to read, if they were researching altered states of consciousness, would come to learn about peyote and other indigenous medicines that are psychedelic in nature. A lot of people turned on by LSD began to appropriate these indigenous medicines and it had a devastating effect. But psychedelic culture didn't get started through an act of appropriation. Many of it's pioneers furthered that agenda most definitely, but that's not where it got started. LSD is what started the craze and again I don't blame the substance itself as much as I blame the fact that it was used within the context of a white-supremacist society. Anything employed through this lens will have a negative consequence; if you look through red glass everything you see will be tinged red. And likewise no matter what you do, if you are doing it as a white supremacist, it's going to create harm. LSD doesn't have to be used exclusively by white supremacists. Additionally, and to restate myself, there are other psychedelics aside from the ones traditionally used by ndn people. And not just LSD. Psychedelics are everywhere. We don't understand their function but they are just as much a part of nature as carbon, nitrogen, or serotonin.

Furthermore, racist white men introduced coffee and sugar and tea to dominant culture. If we refuse everything that is offered by racist white men what choices are we left with? In my case, I reject what is harmful and I embrace what works. Using peyote is harmful, therefore I wont do it. But just because LSD was invented by a white man who might be guilty of cultural appropriation, I see no harm occurring should I choose to ingest LSD because I find it valuable. Forks were invented by Romans, who did a lot of really horrible things, but I am not going to stop eating with a fork. A fork is a useful tool, even if the people who invented were terrible people.

As a black person in America I find this issue even more difficult to deal with. My people were the rejects of Africa. We were sold into slavery by our own people and brought onto colonized land. I am living in a world ruled by white people, on ndn land, I have no connection to my ancestors, and all I know about them is that their native country sold them into slavery for some cloth and gunpowder. When it comes to culture, I have to take what is given to me. I will do my absolute best not to steal from the traditions of others, but as far as I'm concerned I can't afford to reject something that works for me just because the person offering it might not be a good person. As long as I am creating no harm in the process that is my goal. Let me turn the tables on you a bit. Do you eat with a fork? Do you use anything that was introduced or invented by Europeans? Do you eat sugar, coffee, tea? The people who introduced those things to you enslaved my ancestors, raped them, locked them up in prison, and left the survivors with nothing. But if those things work for you I'm not going to tell you to stop using them, as long as you don't take anything offered by them that rightfully belongs to me. I will do the same for you. I don't think that we can afford to reject everything offered by white people simply because of their implication in oppression....that's what dominant society is....we don't really have a choice because dominant culture has left us with no other options. Conform or be swallowed by it. And this is what we are seeing with ndn culture and it is heartbreaking. This is why I'm drawn to activism, because I don't think it has to be this way and I want to do everything in my power to fight against it. I want my own identity. But for now, I'm piecing it together bit by bit with whatever I can find that works for me. If I am cold and hungry and I have the opportunity to eat warm food I am not going to reject it because the person offering it to me also happens to feed hungry Neo-Nazis. We have to pick and choose our battles and I'm doing that to the best of my ability.

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C'mon now yourself, Praxis... You state clearly that you're a psychonaut (kinda can't be one without actually using said psychoactives) and even though you ARE NOT FROM THE CULTURE YOU'RE APPROPRIATING FROM, you take it upon yourself to decide who uses it outside that culture and why. Your motivation of racists and weirdos having it in their possession and deciding YOU need to prevent this/inform properly/etc is the epitome of the abuse of privilege. You clearly state that even though Natives here and among the ayuhuasca cultures will adamantly disagree, you're still saying it's a transformative "tool" when in fact bridging whatever perceived gap you see between these cultures does nothing but enable those who will misuse these substances. Point blank. Whatever your intentions, that's what happens. It's been repeated on this thread and all throughout this entire forum as well as being discussed in the pre-Internet days of Native cultural appropriation and the misuse/abuse of our sacred rites and substances. I don't care if you use or not. That's on you. What is not accepted here is pretension and ulterior motive, if you had not noticed.

Why does interest in psychedelics automatically mean I'm appropriating ndn culture? Why does my personal choice to take psychedelics automatically mean I'm a nuager just as bad as the rest of them? I don't identify with new-age culture and I don't believe that psychedelics and new-age are mutually exclusive. I don't believe that any legitimate ayahuasca using culture would disagree with me saying that ayahuasca is a powerful tool. It is an extremely powerful tool. It is because of the fact that I respect that power that I won't go near it, it is clearly better off being used by traditional peoples who have been using it for thousands of years.

When I say "bridging these cultures" I do not mean psychedelic new age culture and indigenous ndn culture, and maybe that is where the misunderstanding lies? I meant activist culture and academic psychedelic culture. I'm not trying to bridge psychedelic users and ndn culture AT ALL. I would like to write an article that is addressed to folks who are attracted to psychedelics, and I would like to explain my own path thus far and how I've come to understand appropriation and why it is harmful. The whole point of the article would be to say that taking Ayahuasca and other indigenous medicines is wrong and hurtful and ndn people have a pretty clear opinion about their use in ANY context by outsiders. No hidden agenda there. No way for anyone to misconstrue my words as a promotion for appropriation.

Have you read Unsettling Ourselves? (https://unsettlingminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/unsettling-minnesota-sourcebook1point0.pdf) It's like a manual about how as non ndn settlers we can acknowledge how our colonial mentality creates harm and how we can be better allies. A lot of it is written by white people talking about their own experiences and how they have created harm to ndn people, how they came to realize it, and how they changed their behavior accordingly. I'm attempting to do the same sort of thing but my target audience is different. Instead of white activists I'm writing to white people who take psychedelics. I made it pretty clear that I'm not trying to speak for ndn people and I never would have asked for feedback here if I didn't take that into consideration. If this community feels uncomfortable with it than I won't do it. The only reason the idea entered my mind is because I've seen how effective and widespread essays like Unpacking the Invisible Napsack are (https://www.isr.umich.edu/home/diversity/resources/white-privilege.pdf).

Again....if yall think its a bad idea THEN I WONT DO IT. But why are you so quick to call my character into question? And why now? Nothing about that last post was new information. I believe I was transparent from the get-go and if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear what I did wrong and what I could do better.

I am not going to go through and edit this, at least not right away, so I'm sure its got some typos and whatnot but hopefully it's clear what I'm trying to say. I really dont want this conversation to turn into my trying to justify my own personal choices. As long as I'm not partaking in things that don't belong to me, why do you care if I take LSD or other drugs? Im not taking from you and I'm not going to question your motives for trying to preserve your own traditions, I only ask for the same respect that I have done my best to show here.

Offline Thyme4Mind

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2015, 01:47:05 am »
Sorry for the double post but just so there's absolutely no misunderstanding or misinterpretation of my words.

When I say:

Quote
If I am cold and hungry and I have the opportunity to eat warm food I am not going to reject it because the person offering it to me also happens to feed hungry Neo-Nazis. We have to pick and choose our battles and I'm doing that to the best of my ability.

If I find out that the food being offered to me was stolen from another person or group of people, I will not eat it. But if they made it themselves I don't see why I should refuse a perfectly good meal. The most degenerate, horrible person in the world could be offering it to me but as long as the food seems good and nobody got hurt because of it, I'm gonna eat it.

You might be thinking, "But you just said that interest in LSD led to the appropriation of ndn medicines, so it did create harm!". And my response would be, "The invention of gunpowder ultimately led to guns being used as a tool of warfare, and guns were used to exterminate ndn people on the American continents. But I sure bet you would use a gun to defend your family, and historically we know lots of ndn people bought and traded for guns to defend themselves from the colonizers. Are you saying that it's wrong to use guns for self defense because white people used them to carry out genocide?"

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2015, 01:47:46 am »
Now you're flippantly comparing Native religious substances to coffee, sugar, and tea? What's next? Selling Peyote at convenience stores? I think it's time you take a long.... SOBER.... look at yourself at this point in your life.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline Thyme4Mind

  • Posts: 35
Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2015, 02:24:04 am »
Now you're flippantly comparing Native religious substances to coffee, sugar, and tea? What's next? Selling Peyote at convenience stores? I think it's time you take a long.... SOBER.... look at yourself at this point in your life.

No I'm not.

Sky suggested that psychedelic culture only exists because of the actions of racist white men. I was saying that 1) that's simply not true. Psychedelic culture arose out of the discovery of LSD and appropriation had nothing to do with it and 2) that if we follow that line of logic then how do we distinguish between anything that white people introduce to dominant culture? My point was that when coffee, sugar, and tea were introduced to western society it was done by white people, for white people--but someone who drinks tea or coffee is not called into question; yet because I admit I take LSD I am being called into question. The people who introduced coffee and tea did so through slave labor, but the two things are not mutually exclusive. The people who introduced psychedelics to western society also appropriated indigenous medicines, but the two things are not mutually exclusive. LSD is not sacred indigenous medicine.  I am not using ndn medicine nor am I promoting it.

I was not comparing indigenous spirituality to coffee, sugar, and tea. I was comparing a line of reasoning with another line of reasoning. Again: the substances of which I speak are not ndn medicines. I don't know how many different ways I can say this.

Please stop with the generalizations.

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2015, 02:37:52 am »
How is that not comparing them? "Furthermore, racist white men introduced coffee and sugar and tea to dominant culture. If we refuse everything that is offered by racist white men what choices are we left with?" Your words, son.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2015, 02:42:15 am »
The fact that someone unqualified has already let the cat out of the proverbial bag does NOT entitle you to do as you please with sacred substances. That is exactly what you're implying you will do despite being educated here as to why you should NOT. It's already been told to you- The concept at hand here is not some academic issue. This is a culture's way of life. It is their heritage. It is for THEM to decide who shares in it, not you or any other self-professed cultural bridge. If the cultures who use this stuff decide to appoint a liason of some sort, they will do so when they please and will choose whom they want. You do NOT appoint yourself in these matters. EVER. Do you need this further clarified?....
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline Thyme4Mind

  • Posts: 35
Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2015, 03:00:29 am »
How is that not comparing them? "Furthermore, racist white men introduced coffee and sugar and tea to dominant culture. If we refuse everything that is offered by racist white men what choices are we left with?" Your words, son.

Please tell me where I'm comparing indigenous spirituality to coffee tea and sugar? From what I can tell from this quote, I'm asking a pretty specific question. How do we distinguish between what to accept from white people and what to reject? That's all that I'm saying in the quote you're taking out of context. Read the rest of it: " In my case, I reject what is harmful and I embrace what works. Using peyote is harmful, therefore I wont do it. But just because LSD was invented by a white man who might be guilty of cultural appropriation, I see no harm occurring should I choose to ingest LSD because I find it valuable"

LSD is not the same thing as peyote. It is not the same thing as ayahuasca.

The analogy with coffee/tea/sugar was to contrast with the point that Sky was trying to express. Sky stated (I should say implied because I don't know if this is what Sky actually meant) that by taking any kind of psychedelic, or by being involved with that culture in any way shape or form, I am somehow at fault because the people responsible for that culture are also responsible for the appropriation of ndn culture. I was saying that the people responsible for providing many things that we enjoy today are also responsible for atrocious acts. This doesnt change the fact that cultural appropriation is wrong. But eating LSD isnt cultural appropriation and I see it about as immoral as it is for someone to drink coffee or use a fork.

All psychedelics =/= sacred medicine.

You might have interpreted my words a certain way, and perhaps that is a fault of my own (nobody is perfect at communicating), but nowhere was I implying that because we consume tea, coffee, and sugar that we (as non ndns) also have a right to consume sacred medicine. I said absolutely no such thing.


Quote
The fact that someone unqualified has already let the cat out of the proverbial bag does NOT entitle you to do as you please with sacred substances. That is exactly what you're implying you will do despite being educated here as to why you should NOT. It's already been told to you- The concept at hand here is not some academic issue. This is a culture's way of life. It is their heritage. It is for THEM to decide who shares in it, not you or any other self-professed cultural bridge. If the cultures who use this stuff decide to appoint a liason of some sort, they will do so when they please and will choose whom they want. You do NOT appoint yourself in these matters. EVER. Do you need this further clarified?....

I've said that myself several times in this very thread. Please point me to where I stated that I am entitled to these medicines. Please show me. I would like to know exactly what it is that I said which makes you seem to think that I am I trying to do as I please with sacred substances. Throughout this entire thread my position hasn't changed a single iota. I am NOT appointing myself as a liason. If that were my intention don't you think I would have just done it and not come to this community first asking whether or not such actions were desirable or not? I have read many many articles written by white people about white privilege, white supremacy, and cultural appropriation and they are widely regarded as useful tools for white people to confront their own  privilege and power. What I'm trying to do is exactly the same thing. If you would like, I can link you to an ndn website which has several of these articles listed for reference. One of them, written by a white person, is about why it is wrong for white people to wear sacred head-dresses or appropriate sacred symbols/clothing. It is widely circulated. I specifically ASKED FOR PERMISSION to write a similar piece but instead of being about head-dresses it would be about sacred medicines (eg peyote/ayahuasca). I did NOT appoint myself. I don't see how I've behaved inappropriately. It might not be a good idea to write this kind of article and I acknowledge that and it's WHY I AM ASKING as opposed to JUST DOING IT ANYWAYS.

This is getting off-track. If you're still upset I encourage you to send me a PM so we can discuss this privately without flooding the forum. If you would rather work this out in public I will happily respond to your posts, Im just not convinced that this is going anywhere.

Offline AClockworkWhite

  • Posts: 194
Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2015, 03:10:18 am »
I don't need to PM you to explain that you compared a religious substance used in a religious ceremony by religious people with staples traded worldwide since before the Americas were even "discovered". If that's not what you mean, then why make that comparison? Do what you want, pal. It's on you. We have no way of knowing what you actually mean anymore after switching stances in the span of days here.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline Thyme4Mind

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Re: Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2015, 03:47:19 am »
Simply because I brought up coffee and tea within the context of a whole conversation about religious substances doesn't mean that I'm comparing the two. You still haven't directly responded to anything I've said. You've only made generalizations and you keep bringing up this one sentence yet don't bother to explain where your interpretation is coming from.

I did not compare a religious substance to staples traded worldwide. I mentioned staples which are traded worldwide, but I was not comparing them to religion at all. I was comparing them to psychedelics, which I have said many times now are not exclusive to ndn culture. Specifically, I was comparing coffee tea and sugar to LSD. You can interpret my words how you want but I believe you're projecting your own prejudice against people who use psychedelics. I am well aware of the fact that a lot of nuagers compare staple trades to religious substances and cite such comparisons as justification for appropriation. Thats not what I did. I compared staple trades to LSD and I attempted to make the point that one who consumes LSD is just as guilty of appropriation as someone who eats sugar. If I made the same analogy but was saying that consuming peyote or ayahuasca was the same as consuming sugar then of course you would absolutely be right. But that's not what I said. I meant what I said and I'm sorry if what I mean isn't properly conveyed through the words I chose to use, but I stand by what I mean.

Your original post directed towards me was accusing me of cultural appropriation. I responded to that and remained open to your thoughts. You responded by citing a single sentence out of everything I wrote to Sky and ignored my response to your accusations of appropriation, and then you said that now I was guilty of being disrespectful by comparing religious substances to tea and coffee. I am still open to your interpretation, but I've responded twice now attempting to explain that the comparison was in regards to LSD and staple trades regardless of how you interpreted my words. I think you're just being reactionary at this point, you seem to have completely abandoned your original point of appropriation and are now just focusing on that one sentence to discredit me as a disrespectful person. Im sorry if the way in which I made my argument was insensitive, perhaps I should have chosen different words. Nonetheless I believe your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Furthermore I'm still wondering if you can cite anything that I've said which states that I'm in favor of appropriation. My stance hasn't changed at all since my first post and I believe that if you go back and read my first post I make it pretty clear what my intentions are.

I guess I'm just confused. I come on here and I say that I've been complicit in the appropriation of sacred ndn culture and I would like to make amends. I say all sorts of problematic things and I even said that my original intent was to find a so called "ethical" way work with ayahuasca and that I wanted to bridge the gap between psychedelics as a middle class white thing and something that can help marginalized communities. The forum explains its position on this subject and I get my answer. Unless you're invited or it's shared, there is no "ethical" way. I am happy with this answer. The thread moves along, and a non-ndn person enters the thread and asks more questions about ayahuasca usage by non ndn people. I do my best to answer some of these questions from within the context of my own experiences thus far. Everybody seems happy with this. Then I make another post where I explain how my thoughts on the subject have evolved slightly and I'm questioning if even the idea of analogs is ethical, and I conclude that my gut is telling me it is unethical. In this post I ask about writing an article, addressed to people who have questions similar to 4Bears, in which I try to explain (from a non ndn perspective) why we should avoid appropriating these medicines. Suddenly, things are not okay.

So where did I go wrong here? You started accusing me of things at this point, BEFORE I made the comment about tea and sugar and coffee. So what exactly is wrong with the scenario I laid out above? What am I missing here? Again, you came after me before the tea and sugar thing and yet since that moment you have only focused on the tea/sugar thing. It comes across as though you're ignoring me completely and just discrediting me because for whatever reason something I did upset you. What did I do, what did I say? Perhaps if we start there, at the beginning, I can better understand where you're coming from?

I know it's not your job to tell me why I'm wrong, but I try to be as open as possible and I genuinely think that there's been a miscommunication. I obviously understand if you choose not to engage with me but it would certainly be helpful for me (which again, I know is not a priority for you) to try to wrap my head around this. I'm trying really hard here.  :-\