Author Topic: Messages and Messengers  (Read 8336 times)

Messages and Messengers
« on: October 21, 2010, 04:39:11 pm »
Started new thread so as not to distract from the Crowther thread.

Saga, regarding messages about love, family, etc.. those can be found in almost every place even as you said, the Bible.

To me, those messages cannot be used to give even the smallest of credit to a person like Crowther. To me, people like
Crowther, ie: frauds and exploiters, use those base messages to build their credentials and followers.

As for your question re the forum, I don't see where this is to dis spirituality. Nor is this forum re spirituality itself. It's a
forum to provide information on frauds/exploiters mostly re Native/indigenous beliefs.

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Saga

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 06:03:09 pm »
Some of the answers just felt so bitter or cynical that I was wondering if the reason for the forum is to prove as much as possible as frauds or at least rise doubts if not possible to be proven guilty. :) Don't get me wrong, I think that it is important to provide info about frauds and exploiters.

And yes, those messages can't be used as anyone's credit, but in a way  so few people are actually saying any of it out loud nowadays, that part of me would like to give her credit from telling what everyone know to be important out loud. Even more so now that religion is more or less taboo in modern world. I have noticed that if you use the word "pray" in the presence of "normal" people, everyone's defenses are up. And if you actually go so far that you say that taking care of earth or people is more important than money making, people are ready to burn you in bonfire, probably with slow fire. :p I have seen it when talking about certain things with people myself. I am somewhat "different" thinker and in a way I understand why people try to get their status up so that at least someone would listen to them, how ever wrong that is. I know that next to none listens to me, when I try to say people that respect and love is important. :) I would never even dream of to start telling people that I am something else that I am tho, even if it would buy my word more power. Also, I would never start selling people happiness, because that is something you just can't do...

Maybe it was just writing style or something that made me ask the question. You know, almost feel that I should be sorry to be loving person, even if I agree with you about Kiesha being in totally wrong track with her exploiting and money hoarding workshops (and the tribe gives me creeps... think my friend's ip is restricted to go there now that she opened a piece of her mind in the forum publicly about things). ;)

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 06:35:52 pm »
I want to ask one question btw and I hope it is not so... Is this forum for looking for the frauds, or is this for dissing all the spirituality? I read some topics and at some topics it seems that if someone says that he/she believes in something, what ever it is, he/she will be blamed for being gullible.

In terms of our spiritual beliefs and practices, we have a wide range among the members of this forum. Most people here have never discussed their personal beliefs and practices, as they see it as a private matter, not something to display on the Internet. One way you can know you are among frauds on the Internet is if they go on and on about their great powers and fantastic experiences.* Most people who are sincerely involved in spiritual practice, in a good way, are humble. And those who live among other people of their faith and traditions do not need to seek for community or teachers on the Internet or in weekend workshops.

Those who come to this forum from fraud-infested sites may perceive some of us as not spiritual. In reality, I think the truth is very different.

We have people here who are deeply involved in the ceremonial ways of their communities, on a daily, lifelong  basis. We have others who only attend the major ceremonies or services of their faith. We also have agnostics and skeptics. But what we have in common is that we are against pay-to-pray, and we are against the objectification and commodification of people and their traditions. From what I've seen even the agnostics here respect the right of traditional people to hold their ceremonies without interference from outsiders, and even those who are skeptical about some spiritual matters are committed to respecting the elders and protecting spiritual people from exploitation.

For many of us, protecting traditional cultures, and other activism, is a part of our spiritual path.

Quote
Even if it was a "salespeech" there were enough good in that for people to buy it.

I agree that people gravitate towards what sounds good to them, and in a disconnected way these things may make them feel good and lead them to make some positive changes in their lives. Where I disagree is that nice-sounding words can be taken out of context of what the exploiter is doing to people. If the exploiter lures the people into a scam with nice-sounding words... better the exploiter had kept their mouth shut in the first place.



*There are some exceptions to this. I've seen some young people from traditional communities post in public fora about ceremonies they've been to... but then usually an elder will give them a talking-to about it and they'll stop. It's happened here before, and excessive detail about ceremony has been edited out, so as not to give food to the frauds.

But not everyone draws the line in the same place. Sometimes traditional people will decide to go into some detail about ceremony, such as after the James Ray deathlodge, to educate people about wrongs that are being done. But there is a difference between an elder choosing to educate the public (to save lives) and a younger person (or misinformed person) going on and on in public about matters that are sacred and private.

For me personally, when I was younger I was far more open about my spiritual practice. And like many young people I was also pretty arrogant and ignorant. I did some stupid things. I made a lot of mistakes. Coming from a revived, non-NDN tradition, my Gaelic colleagues and I have at times made the decision to share the basic material more openly, in an effort to give nons who are not living in a community that has these ways a way to connect with the earth and the traditions of our ancestors. We also have done this to provide nons with an alternative to ripping off NDNs. But I see a difference between sharing basic Gaelic material (much of which was written down hundreds of years ago) and sharing details of private traditions. But that may be a tangent of the tangent, as currently, for the most part, the Gaelic polytheists are dealing with different circumstances than traditional NDN communities are facing. There are significant overlaps in our issues, but as most Gaelic people have white skin privilege and are no longer oppressed the way we were generations ago (back when the Irish were not considered "white"), there are also large differences in the relative immediacy and severity of what we are dealing with.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:44:16 am by Kathryn »

Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 07:15:31 pm »

And yes, those messages can't be used as anyone's credit, but in a way  so few people are actually saying any of it out loud nowadays, that part of me would like to give her credit from telling what everyone know to be important out loud. Even more so now that religion is more or less taboo in modern world. I have noticed that if you use the word "pray" in the presence of "normal" people, everyone's defenses are up. And if you actually go so far that you say that taking care of earth or people is more important than money making, people are ready to burn you in bonfire, probably with slow fire. :p

Just not so Saga, you can follow the words of the Dalai Lama for one example, he even has a face book group. The words to promote love, respect, tolerance and peace are there, and not just from the Dalai Lama, I'm sure there are other's from other traditions who also speak such words.

What is not there is the trinkets that the frauds like to sell. I just saw a thing on ABC World News last night, on India where there is such rampant frauds who use tricks to fool people into believing they are levitating or living w/o food and water for years. People, imo, are looking for something beyond "human".. and also imo, that is an escape mechanism from the truth of the human condition. Many are conditioned to look for a savior and project that as well, as we have seen with the great white savior projected onto ndn's.

Then you have the new age people, who, spout the message so much so that it is phoney and falls apart as soon as someone seriously questions and/or confronts them about what they are saying. A good clue on this is that the questioner suddenly becomes a "negative energy" and is dismissed.  That dismissal is proof they are fools and without wisdom or knowledge..

just spouting out what sounds good because for the moments they can delude their selves, they feel really good. It's like a drug.. hey?

And in the above sentence, I'm speaking about followers, not the just the ones making money off it..

I haven't seen people become defensive re the word pray or in re to helping Earth/people in a good way. But I am one who's defenses does go up with the word "pray/prayer".  But that is only because I've seen 'praying' that is really offensive to me and I want no part of that, so yeh, my guard goes up until I can discern what it is they are thinking of doing.. in re to prayer.

As for my personal beliefs, again, I am guarded in that. For one thing, I refuse to let someone capitalize on what I know and use it. On the other hand, I do think I have something I could offer but the trick is in being able to do so in a right way that does not lead to what is seen and used in the exploitative and delusional, nor in self proclamation. Which I am highly against.

You shouldn't be sorry to be a loving person, and... a loving person needs no audience. Love within the life you live.. that is all one needs to do.  :)


« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 07:18:27 pm by critter »
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Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2010, 07:26:26 pm »
Even more so now that religion is more or less taboo in modern world. I have noticed that if you use the word "pray" in the presence of "normal" people, everyone's defenses are up.

I guess it depends on who you think is "normal".  :) 

I pray every day with people from a variety of faiths. We pray together, we pray for each other; it's very normal to me.

Here in the US, most people are religious in one way or another; often it's the atheists and agnostics who feel isolated and oppressed. But so many in the mainstream US are kind of crazy and oppressive when it comes to religion... if that's all I'd been exposed to I would be skeptical, too.

Quote
And if you actually go so far that you say that taking care of earth or people is more important than money making, people are ready to burn you in bonfire,

Again, it depends on who you hang out with.  :)

Saga

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2010, 07:39:44 pm »
Thank you. :) I think the same way really. I don't think that the good thoughts should be sold with inventing awesome stories and exploiting anything. :) Just wondered, since some of the answers in some threads are pretty far on a harsh side. :)

And yes, it would be better that all the scams would keep their mouth shut. Just kind of wish that some people would keep the good thoughts and leave as fast as they can from this "tribe" and for gods sake stop giving money to her... I would never suggest to anyone to pay if someone wants to "teach" in workshops and asks huge amounts of money + donations in addition to all that AND is working for book, in which the tribers have actually helped to transcript the radio/video talks for free, in their own time, because they thought they help the tribe's good message to spread...

What I know of genuinely spiritual people that I have met btw, is that they never really ask anything. They are kind and gentle and helpful and don't ask anything or tell you that you will go to hell or wont "ascend" or what ever, if you dont agree with them. :)

Oh and btw, this ascension stuff... even the word sounds like new age fraud to me...

@ critter
I actually do "follow" Dalai Lama, or more likely, read and listen his teachings. :) I actually think that you and I are actually quite much in the same line in here. Now I understand you lot better, that was only thing I wanted to get really. :) And that loving thing... I try my best and that's what I try to tell people that are totally blindly following people with "good message" to follow that in their own lives... I understand the yearning for good messages, but the truth is best found from inside and the connection to what ever source should be personal. I am not here for audience, but I feel compassion towards the misleaded and even the person that feels need to do that.

And I am suspicious even towards this forum, so wanted to ask more thoroughly. Now I am content, I trust that you do the good job and got the reasons for it in clearer form, thank you.

You may continue. *bow and curtsey* ;)

And Kathryn... here in Europe it seems that religion has become something to be avoided. And seems that so many people are only after money. I have started to find bit nicer people to hang out with now tho. :) I have my own personal way to believe and I keep it up by praying and occasional invented "ceremonies", but can't say that many people around me understand it at all, any kind of spirituality really. Doesn't matter, as long as none is trying to feed me their truths and I don't feel need to convert anyone either. :)

Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 08:04:14 pm »
In the USA, religion is becoming a war as more are trying to politicize it and create a 'religious' nation here. The atheists, agnostics, and even many religious peoples are against this. Separation of church and state is being very much attacked. That separation is one of the things I personally fight for and keep abreast of as much as I can to help educate people of the civil rights we have lost and have good chance of losing if a 'specific' religion gains rule in our country.  But this is beside the point of this thread, I just wanted to state it and point it out as I'm not sure what you, in another country, may see of this.

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 08:08:35 pm »
Yes, there are ugly "religious" wars going on in the US. I think the people using "religion" as a way of oppressing people, as a weapon of their hate, are not spiritual at all. They're not in touch with a higher power, they're only in touch with their own sick desires to dominate others.

I completely support separation of church and state. I support people's freedom of religion, as well as their right to be free from religion.

Saga

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2010, 09:23:29 am »
I completely support freedom of religion too, or more likely, freedom of thought and accepting all sorts of people and their beliefs or non-beliefs (well not exactly the harmful ones, but you get the point). I hate the main religions style of telling "we are the only right thing to believe in".

Offline earthw7

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2010, 01:20:11 pm »
I had to go and read the post because sage says the tribe, that woman does not have tribe nor belongs to a tribal people.
She mde up her own tribe which is fraud. Prayer is an important part of my life as a Native who lives among her community
i know my way of life. People like this woman make up things about who we are, she is not a part of us can not speak for us and
will never be accepted by us because she abuses our ways.
We have always done our best to protect ourselves but today their are so many fakes out there that we have to stand up and
say no, it is like they take prayer and step on it burn it and make it dirty. Then we have people who belive the words these people
say and defend the abuse because they dont know any better.
I give thanks for people who work to help the Native belief we have been target by frauds and abuser for along time. They steal what is not their nor do they understand it.
It is wrong to talk about our personal belief on the internet so we don't
In Spirit

Offline Saga

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 04:32:55 am »
I should have said "tribe". :) The "tribe" she has formed to herself. Or maybe use the word group.

And i understand your point earthw7. I have to say that I didn't understand it before I hit these forums, I do now, way better at least, if it hasn't totally hit in. Tend to be thoughtless at times, like most people are...

I absolutely hate cashing with spirituality or religion tho, so there we are standing on same level at least. :) And I want honesty from people, not lies.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 01:21:49 pm »
That is good to hear, and as i said in another post if you want to learn about
native people go to them and visit. Most of the books wrote are wrong, most
of the movies are wrong so to find the truth go to the souces.
In Spirit

Offline Saga

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Re: Messages and Messengers
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 05:11:35 pm »
I wish I can do that some day. :) Been bit low on money all my life, so never had a chance. :)

Anyway, I am actually pretty happy that I got my shock awakening... At least I can try to get to know the real side of things better and not just the selected parts mixed with new age... I appreciate things separately, since new age is something for fun (I tend to laugh at some of the stuff, think my feet are still too heavily on earth for that) and history and everyday beliefs and "real things" are something to be interested in bit more. :) I like natural things, nature and real people and all aspects in life, so if it gets too complicated or weird and out of sync with that, I am not interested too long.

And I tend to believe that we are actually meant to do something about things ourselves, where we can.. to help a bit where needed and not just be, like most of the new age stuff tells you... and where it started to go wrong with certain individuals for me...