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General => Research Needed => Topic started by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 12:19:42 am

Title: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 12:19:42 am
The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians is a State Recognized Tribe in Alabama.  The conversation about them was originally brought up here.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2987.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2987.0)

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What’s also interesting is that of the 3,960 enrolled members of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians, only 40 of them have documented Indian Ancestry.  And strangely enough, those 40 were not even deemed to be descended from the group of Choctaw Indians that they claim to be descended from.  I guess this would be explained by proposing that the Indian Ancestors because of discrimination didn’t have records.  But that wouldn’t really explain why no single Indian ancestor could be found in any previous generation.
 

With that said, The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians based in Mississippi, (A LEGITITIMITE FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE), who ARE descended from Choctaws that stayed in the East, have substantial documentation of who they are, and they faced discrimination by racist white southerners.
http://www.choctaw.org/ (http://www.choctaw.org/)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 12:22:50 am
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But the findings go further than that on page 14, by stating that in many cases, "Indian ancestry is disproved".  I’ve also found some articles in particular on this tribe saying that DNA test was done on over 300 of their members, and in virtually every case, no discernable American Indian ancestry was found.  The findings did show evidence exclusively of African American and White ancestry.  
“In numerous cases, evaluation and Verification of the petition's genealogical claims to Indian Ancestry indicated that persons described as American Indian By the petitioner, and claimed on the petitioner's list of “Known Indian Ancestors" were clearly not of American Indian Ancestry”.

This link here is for the entire 186 pages of the “Proposed Findings against Federal Acknowledgement of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.  The researchers and BIA genealogist did exhaustive research on the Tribe, and could find virtually no evidence of Indian ancestry for the majority of its members.  Tribal Rolls were not the only thing that was searched.  The BIA proposed findings shows that searches were done on numerous other documents, including Tribal Rolls, censuses, historical records, court documents etc., etc., and virtually nothing was found to confirm Choctaw or even Indian ancestry in the vast majority of cases.

PROPOSED FINDINGS AGAINST FEDERAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE MOWA BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf (http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 12:24:53 am
Of the 3,960 enrolled members at the time of the findings, only 40 of them had documented Indian ancestry, and strangely enough, these 40 weren’t even documented to the Choctaw people that the Tribe claims to be from.  The evidence shows these people are of African American and White ancestry.

In 1976,a Doctor William S. Pollitzer did a genetic study on 324 members of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.

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Physical measurements and observations suggest predominantly White ancestry, and D2 analysis confirms this, with least similarity to Indians. Analysis of serological traits implies almost 70% White, almost 30% Black, and very little Indians genes. Few defects of clear genetic etiology were discovered. Growth patterns judged from X-rays appeared normal. All genetic loci testable were in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium except Gc. While history and some common surnames suggest endogamy in the past, the medical and serological findings, plus some additional surnames, indicate that the isolate has already been largely diluted or dissolved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/888930 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/888930)

In numerous cases, evaluation and Verification of the petition's genealogical claims to Indian Ancestry indicated that persons described as American Indian By the petitioner, and claimed on the petitioner's list of “Known Indian Ancestors" were clearly not of American Indian Ancestry.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 02:09:17 am
Another interesting thing about this group is that many of their members claim descent from other Tribes such as the Cherokee, Chickasaws, Creeks and Mescalero Apaches.  Not surprisingly however, the overwhelming majority of these claims could not be substantiated.

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The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians was duly incorporated in 1979 with its tribal office located in McIntosh and purchased their first 160 acres of land in south Washington County in 1983. They adopted the name “MOWA Choctaw Indians” to identify the Indians in Mobile and Washington Counties who are descended from several Indian Tribes: Choctaw, Creek, Cherokee, Mescalero, and Apache.
http://www.aaanativearts.com/choctaw-indians/index.html (http://www.aaanativearts.com/choctaw-indians/index.html)

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2010, 02:11:33 am
Claims of Apache heritage can also be found in the BIA findings.  If you go to page 101, or 131 of page 186 of the BIA findings.


http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf (http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf)

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MOWA claims that-Lizzie Sullivan's father was an Apache that was imprisoned at Mt. Vernon Barracks in washington County during their stay prior to removal to Oklahoma. The Apaches were at Mt. Vernon Barracks from 1887 until 1894. Evidence for this is -a statement of Lizzie's sister, as recorded in an -extract of an oral interview.

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Though the Apaches had interacted with the local population, there is no documentation to support the theory that any child was born of Apache parentage other than between the Apaches themselves. The interpreter, who married an Apache woman and removed to Oklahoma had the only recorded Apache birth. The oral interview extract cited stated that the person had heard from Lizzie's sister that Lizzie’s father was an Apache named "Rye", but that he didn't know for sure. This was hearsay and not supported by any documentation. Several in-depth studies of this theory all have concluded that no Apache offspring could be found remaining in the washington County, AL. Thus, it is highly improbable that Indian ancestry could be claimed through any of the Apache who had been at Mt. Vernon.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 21, 2010, 02:52:23 pm
In the Southeast racial classifications of American Indians, blacks, and mulattos were sometimes classified together and overlapping, and this explains why many people today believe they are of Choctaw heritage, when in fact their ancestors were actually Mulattos, or of mixed black/white ancestry. The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians is a good example of this.

Also, after going through some of the Choctaw applications for the Dawes Roll, the situation appears eerily similar to a lot of the same things that went on with the Cherokee applications for the Dawes Roll.  And specifically false claims of heritage.  While it is true that there were at least some rejected Choctaw applications of people who were genuinely of Choctaw heritage, most rejected applications appear to be for false claims of Choctaw heritage. 


Here are some excerpts from the book, After Removal: The Choctaw in Mississippi edited by Samuel J. Wells and Roseanna Tubby.

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By the time the official Choctaw Nation rolls were ordered closed on March 4th, 1907, some 25,000 personas had applied for identification as Mississippi Choctaw, but fewer then, 1,700 had been accepted.  Thousands of Blacks, Whites, and mixed bloods had been denied identification, P 21.

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 21, 2010, 03:10:19 pm
After Removal: The Choctaw in Mississippi, edited by Samuel J. Wells and Roseanna Tubby.  Parts of this book can be found at Google Books.
http://books.google.com/ (http://books.google.com/)

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Although the would be claimants before the commission included more indigent whites and blacks then Indians, about 300 full bloods were eventually identified and removed at government expense to Indian Territory in 1903, Page 21.

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In 1908 the Choctaw council had warned that many non-Choctaw, including “Mexicans, Creoles, Dagoes, and Indians of other Tribes,” were claiming to be Choctaw in order to obtain a portion of the tribal funds that still remained after allotment, p 21.

What’s interesting about this book is that it explores the reality of “Authentic Choctaws”, who stayed behind in the East, did not move to Indian Territory, and suffered a harsh existence surrounded by a hostile racist society, yet there is a substantial body of evidence proving their existence.  The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians can easily prove their existence as a historic Indian Community.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Cetan on November 21, 2010, 08:14:42 pm
I believe the Mississippi Band requires 1/2 BQ for enrollment
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 21, 2010, 10:03:26 pm
I believe the Mississippi Band requires 1/2 BQ for enrollment

I believe your right Cetan.  With that said, The issue with the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians isn’t how high or low their BQ’s are, but as to whether or not they ACTUALLY HAVE A CHOCTAW BQ.  The BIA document actually discusses this, and states that the MOWA Band is not being rejected on the issue of minimum BQ’s, or of being mixed with Black or White ancestry,  BUT for a combination of reasons, including NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of Indian ancestry, and NO EVIDENCE of being an Indian community.  

With the Mississippi Band, it’s their right to decide on a minimum BQ, or lineal descent, as does any Federally Recognized Tribe have that right.  People who don’t have the minimum ½ Mississippi Choctaw BQ, but COULD document their ancestry, would have legitimate claims of having Choctaw heritage, but not of being legally Choctaw.  Something that virtually none of the enrolled members of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians can do.  And that is provide any evidence at all of their Choctaw heritage.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on November 22, 2010, 03:02:29 pm
In the Southeast racial classifications of American Indians, blacks, and mulattos were sometimes classified together and overlapping, and this explains why many people today believe they are of Choctaw heritage, when in fact their ancestors were actually Mulattos, or of mixed black/white ancestry. The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians is a good example of this.


I see this constantly, when students of mine have vague stories of NDN ancestors. I have to tell that for most white southerners, it was a way for the family to hide that they likely had Black ancestors, something most regarded with shame and was usually illegal at the time.

About the claims of Apache/Choctaw babies at Mt Vernon barracks, this was among the most heavily documented groups, ever. There was quite a media circus surrounding their imprisonment and every single Apache in the group was under heavy guard. The chances of a child being born with no one knowing about it are pretty slim.

Also amusing how they thought Mescalero and Apache were two separate tribes.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2010, 06:35:52 pm
In the Southeast racial classifications of American Indians, blacks, and mulattos were sometimes classified together and overlapping, and this explains why many people today believe they are of Choctaw heritage, when in fact their ancestors were actually Mulattos, or of mixed black/white ancestry. The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians is a good example of this.


I see this constantly, when students of mine have vague stories of NDN ancestors. I have to tell that for most white southerners, it was a way for the family to hide that they likely had Black ancestors, something most regarded with shame and was usually illegal at the time.

About the claims of Apache/Choctaw babies at Mt Vernon barracks, this was among the most heavily documented groups, ever. There was quite a media circus surrounding their imprisonment and every single Apache in the group was under heavy guard. The chances of a child being born with no one knowing about it are pretty slim.

Also amusing how they thought Mescalero and Apache were two separate tribes.



That’s right.  And this can all be explained if one examines the historical context of the times.


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Any assumption of ethnicity on the basis of census data from a single year (or any other single document) may err. Determining the ethnic identity of any family labeled free people of color (or f.p.c.) on any record invariably requires exhaustive research in the widest possible variety of resources. This is especially so when treating the large number of southeastern families who traditionally paint their family tree red rather than black[b/] (Mills 1990, 264).10

Tracing Free People of Color in the Antebellum South: Methods, Sources, and Perspectives.
National Genealogical Society Quarterly 78(4): 262-278.



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Development of Alabama Miscegenation and School Segregation Law., l.2;5:2-l.927. A prerequisite for understanding the development of any southern ethnic group whose ancestry includes antebellum free persons of color requires an understanding of the legal conditions which prevailed at various time periods and the social relations which resulted, in part, from the legal status. Understanding these circumstances makes it possible to comprehend the motives; which led the members of such groups to claim Indian rather than African ancestry or, in cases where both components were present, to emphasize the Indian rather than the African ancestry.



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Prior to the Civil War, the restrictions which Alabama placed upon free persons of color were by no means uniform. Neither we’re they logically consistent. Over a period of approximately 80 years, from 1852 to 1927, there was in Alabama a steady movement to a stricter legal definition of what made! a person "Negro." After the Civil War, Alabama law was apparently interpreted to mean that prohibitions against interracial marriage applied to persons of African descent. but not to persons of Indian descent. The earliest record of: possible Choctaw ancestry for Rose (Gaines) Reed took place in the context of a trial in which a white man was accused of miscegenation for having married one of her granddaughters.


P 24 of BIA DOC.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on November 27, 2010, 01:41:46 am
Just like the MOWA Band’s claims to Mescalero Apache heritage turn out to be unsubstantiated, the same goes for virtually all of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians claims to Cherokee Heritage.  No evidence was found to substantiate these claims

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NANCY FISHER Cherokee "..mother of Cecile Weatherford full blood Cherokee -G.M.Roll # 17392

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MOWA claims that Nancy Fisher was a -Cherokee Indian (full-blood). MOWA also claims Nancy was the mother of Cecile Weatherford. Proof of this claim is documented by -Guion Miller Roll #17392

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Guion Miller Application #17392 of Mrs. Iorinda Reed of Fairfax, AL, was taken when she was age 75. She stated her father was a weaver, b.  Georgia, and mother Seceil [sic] Weatherford  b. Tennessee; that her father died in 1889 and mother in 1858. [Other applications state that both Nancy and Cecile died in 1849/50.J She stated that Cecile's father was Wm. Weatherford and mother was Nancy Fisher. She stated that she was descended from Cherokee Indians because her mother Tiney Cesile and grandmother, Nancy (Fisher) Weatherford told her so. Her application was rejected because she was not Cherokee, but it was placed in the Creek file because of the Weatherford name. There was no documentation that Nancy Fisher was Cherokee, or that Cecile was a WeatherfordThere is also no documented  connections to David Weaver and CecileMany present-day MBC descend from this family.


BIA Doc, 116
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on December 07, 2010, 12:43:26 am

In 1850, there actually were a few Choctaw families living in Mobile county Alabama.  However, unlike the overwhelming majority of the descendants of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians, the Authentic Choctaws were classified as Indians on that Census.  So the question is why were they classified as Indians, but the MOWAs ancestors were classified as Mulatto, white and black?

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In 18S0, the few known Mississippi Choctaw families residing in Mobile County, Alabama, were classified by the census takers as "Indian," whereas members of the MBC families were classified as "Mulatto" (U. S. Census 1850s).


Another strange phenomenon is that the evidence shows that a large number of MOWA’s ancestors applied to the Dawes Rolls and Guion Miller Rolls as Cherokees.  This can be found in the records of rejected applications.  This is pretty strange since they are claiming to be a Choctaw Tribe.

In addition to the fraudulent claims to Cherokee, Choctaw, and Mescalero Apache ancestry, MOWA Choctaw claims to Houma and Creek ancestry either have not been proven, or  in many cases, have  been disproven. 
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The claim to Houma ancestry was based on oral tradition only, and is contradicted by documentary evidence :( ~ pertaining to the supposed Houma woman


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MOWA claims that Molly Starland, b.  1849 was the -daughter of Jesse Starland, who was -Houma from LA. Documentation comes from - "oral history”



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The "oral history" was an extract of interview. Starland was not a Houma surname, never appearing in documented Houma genealogical material. Molly married a Byrd in the 1890's. On the 1900 Census, Mollie (Stallings) Byrd said she was born in July, 1855 In Alabama; her father born in GA; her mother in FL. From this assorted data, it seems highly unlikely that Molly was of Indian extraction. MBC-

Nor were their claims to Creek ancestry substantiated.
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DANIEL REED Creek -Son of Hardy Reed  and Eliza Tarvin - Wooddwards Remin. -oral history

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MOWA claims that their ancestor, -Daniel Reed is the son of Hardy Reed and Eliza Tarvin, -was a Creek Indian. Documentation provided by MOWA was from -Woodward's Reminiscences, written in 1859, and-Oral History.


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Thomas S Woodard’s Reminiscence does not mention anything about Daniel or Hardy Reed. The oral history was an extract of an oral interview taken in 1978 just prior to petitioning for acknowledgment.  In those histories, no one mentioned that Hardy Reed was the father of Daniel.
Documents provided by MOWA as part of their petition put Daniel's origins in doubt.  Some histories stated he was from Texas, some from Jamaica, and some just did not know•,
There was no documentation or reason to believe that Daniel Reed was the son of Hardy Reed, nor that he was an Indian.
Many documents show otherwise.

P 112
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on December 28, 2010, 05:46:35 am


     Halito, chim achukma okla api homi? Sa hochiffo ut Mike. Sa okla ut chahta okla hannali. Chahta imanumpa ish anumpuli hinla
     ho?  translated: hello are you well indian people? my name is Mike. My people are six towns Choctaw. Do you speak Choctaw?
     I am a non federally recognized Choctaw/Biloxi descendant who has learned to speak the Choctaw language since 1998.
     My ancestors are Brelands, Byrds, and Shepards who were rejected by the Dawes Commission in Oklahoma and still
     given blood quantum numbers.

     I'm 1/32nd Choctaw and 1/32nd Biloxi Indian. My ancestors resided in Greene and Perry County, MS. This is only fifty or
     sixty miles northwest of the Mowa Choctaw Community. The European side of my ancestry arrived in this area from
     the Carolinas in 1800. The Choctaws were mostly still in the area for 25 or 30 years. The Biloxis had gone mostly
     to LA amongst the Tunicas, Houmas, and Choctaws there after the defeat of the French in the French and Indian War.
     Tribes like the Pascagoula, Biloxi, Pacana, and Koasati went LA and later Texas as the Americans came into this area
     in the South. The way the conversation about the Mowa people is going here bothers me. It's obvious that no one here
     has read, "They Say the Wind is Red" by Jacquillene Matte. There was also a book called, "And the Waters still Run" that
     deals with numerous state and federal tribes from New England to Louisiana including the Mowa people. Geronimo's
     people spent seven years here and I've met Apache descendants in the Mowa community. A child of Geronimos  attended
     Carlisle Indian School and died there. He is buried in Mobile AL. Like many communties along the coast the Mowas absorbed
     Creeks, Cherokees and some Apache ancestry from the POW's. In comparison the Tunica Biloxi Tribe of LA has Avoyel,
     Taensa, Ofo, and Choctaw ancestry amongst it's enrollees and was still BIA recognized in 1980. The late Vine Deloria
     Jr wrote the forward for the They Say the Wind is Red book. He signed my copy and said the Mowas were the real deal.
     In contrast a caucasian appearing Cherokee BIA OFA Director Lee Fleming told the Mowas the BIA was done with their petition
     and they'd have to go to Congress. Even GOP wingnuts like Richard Shelby supported the Mowa people in the past.
     In conclusion a little reading goes a long way even for people who claim to be educated. Please research before you judge someone.









Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on January 09, 2011, 02:27:17 am
I’ve read ALL of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians counter arguments that were recorded in the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs Hearings on June 26th, 1991 in regards to their Federal Recognition, and I’ve also read Jacqueline A. Matte’s testimony.  That was her opportunity to make her case.  She states that Indians were counted as black or white after the Civil War “because Indians were not supposed to be there”.   There is no evidence to support that the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indian’s ancestors were Indians neither after the Civil War, before the Civil War, nor at any other point in time.  

As I pointed out before, the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians ancestors, and Authentic Choctaw descendants that aren’t necessarily enrolled in one of the Federally Recognized Choctaw Tribes can document their Choctaw ancestry back for generations on many other documents besides censuses.  Even if this happened to be the case with the MOWAs, this does not explain why no evidence whatsoever going back over 200 years can substantiate any of their claims to being a Choctaw Tribe, an Indian Tribe or to being Indians.  The evidence clearly shows who their ancestors were, and they were not Indians.   Many of them believe they are of Indian heritage because of the oral story that was passed on to them in their family.

With that said, their BIA Denial was not based on one single factor such as a census, but based on a combination of many, many factors, all of which suggest that the overwhelming majority (or 98%) of the members of the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indians are neither Indians nor of Indian descent.  All of the evidence clearly shows these people are descended from whites, blacks, and Mulattos: Descended from people who in some cases were described as Cajans, Cajuns, Creoles, or Creoles of Color in some of the historical literature.  Some of their ancestors may have  claimed Indian, Choctaw, or Cherokee because of various Anti Miscegenation laws and other laws in place in Alabama and the Southeast at the time, and claiming Indian worked to their advantage, or as educatedindian pointed out,
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for most white southerners, it was a way for the family to hide that they likely had Black ancestors, something most regarded with shame and was usually illegal at the time
.

I also suggest you read Origins of the MOWA Band of Choctaws: A Critique by Jonnie Andrews Jr.

As far as Richard Shelby, the US Senator from Alabama goes, he is a Senator from Alabama, and will do what he can to help and support his constituents.  He also testified at that hearing.   He cited the fact that they (the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians) got funding from Federal and State sources, and that that was some sort of proof that they are recognized as Indians.  Just because a Tribe is State Recognized and gets some sort of funding from the Federal or State Government is meaningless.  Just because a Governor signs a piece of paper recognizing a club as an Indian Tribe to bring in Federal dollars is also meaningless.  



tuschkahouma said

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Geronimo's people spent seven years here and I've met Apache descendants in the Mowa community. A child of Geronimo’s attended Carlisle Indian School and died there. He is buried in Mobile
.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the claims that any of the MOWAs are descended neither from Apaches nor from Geronimo.  What evidence do you have of this?

This theory was investigated in depth and can be found in the BIA document.

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MOWA claims that-Lizzie Sullivan's father was an Apache that was imprisoned at Mt. Vernon Barracks in Washington County during their stay prior to removal to Oklahoma. The Apaches were at Mt. Vernon Barracks from 1887 until 1894. Evidence for this is -a statement of Lizzie's sister, as recorded in an -extract of an oral interview
.

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Though the Apaches had interacted with the local population, there is no documentation to support the theory that any child was born of Apache parentage other than between the Apaches themselves. The interpreter, who married an Apache woman and removed to Oklahoma, had the only recorded Apache birth. The oral interview extract cited stated that the person had heard from Lizzie's sister that Lizzie’s father was an Apache named "Rye", but that he didn't know for sure. This was hearsay and not supported by any documentation. Several in-depth studies of this theory all have concluded that no Apache offspring could be found remaining in the Washington County, AL. Thus, it is highly improbable that Indian ancestry could be claimed through any of the Apache who had been at Mt. Vernon
.

educatedindian said

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About the claims of Apache/Choctaw babies at Mt Vernon barracks, this was among the most heavily documented groups, ever. There was quite a media circus surrounding their imprisonment and every single Apache in the group was under heavy guard. The chances of a child being born with no one knowing about it are pretty slim
.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 23, 2011, 11:27:55 am


I waited and waited for someone to comment and finally one of you did. As to the Mowa Choctaw Apache connection, the Mowas
were approached by the descendants of those POW Chiracahua Apaches to be part of an ICC claim in the past. Now why do you
think these particular Apaches would do this? Maybe it was because they considered them relatives. These people were mislabled
as Cajans to deny their existence. I grew up in Moss Bluff LA, in the area of the Attakapas, Redbones, and Coushattas. I was taught
Cajun French in 2nd Grade there and I can still speak some French 33 years later. That area was French Acadian. The Mobile area
was not. The amount of racial mixing in Spanish West Florida as it was known for some time was like Brazil. The Indian agent for
that area named Gaines recorded the names of Choctaw people then whose descendants are Mowas now. He moved to the area
where my ancestors lived 200 years ago in Greene and Perry County, MS. While you all are on your integrity hunt what do you
think of the Talimali Band of Apalachees who came out of hiding from racism in LA a decade ago after being basically invisible
since the late 18th century? What about the Choctaw-Lipan Apache-Nahautl community at Ebarb, LA, or the Clifton Choctaw
Community? Have you ever read the Indians of Louisiana Book by Fred Kniffen and two other professors at the Natchitoches, LA
state college?  I still remember meeting Professor Deloria at Haskell about eight years ago and having him sign They say the
Wind is Red. He told me to tell the Mowa Chief to not give up no matter what. I wonder if the what he was mentioning had anything
to do with the kind of character attacks I've seen here?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on January 23, 2011, 03:09:49 pm

As to the Mowa Choctaw Apache connection, the Mowas were approached by the descendants of those POW Chiracahua Apaches to be part of an ICC claim in the past. Now why do you think these particular Apaches would do this? Maybe it was because they considered them relatives....


I'd really like to see proof of this. The Chiricahuas in the Mt Vernon barracks were so heavily guarded and had so much press surrounding them...It'd be about as likely as OJ Simpson getting a woman pregnant while he was awaiting trial (the first trial, for murder) for this to happen and no one notice.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 23, 2011, 09:03:23 pm
I deal with nahollo historians constantly who completely dismiss oral tradition from tribal people. it's ridiculous when indigenous historians
act like nahollos concerning oral tradition. I've spent fifteen years on my own ancestry in spite of the MCR designation on the Dawes Rolls.
When my grandfather mentioned the ancestry there was no internet. There were universities and libraries with microfilm. I found the
names of relatives of my ancestors who did apply unsuccessfully for Dawes. After the initial denial and the long trek to Indian Terr.
the rest of the family basically forgot about the enrollment process and my great-grandmothers people didn't bother to apply. I have
my relatives on there but not my great-grandmother directly. I have a 64 year old picture of my late mother and great-grandmother
in Richton. MS. That's it. I lived in the deep South in the 1970's as a child. I wrote in my book Hina Falaya about my father's experience in being
warned in a racist manner to avoid the Redbones north of Moss Bluff, LA back then. People had no access to censuses, legal rights,
nothing. As far as proof, why don't you quit talking down on the Mowas here and contact them yourself. They have a 300 acre rez
north of Mobile, AL. I've been there....have you? They have a cultural center there. They have friends in the Miss Choctaw communities
now that Philip Martin isn't lobbying against them or anyone else for that matter. I have Kansas Kickapoo co-workers at my job
who talk of their people being one of the 34 members of federally recognized communities who live on the Mowa Rez married to Mowa
tribal members. Are those people as unknowingly indicting as you all are on here. Talk goes on without direct contact or conversation.
Do research if you're educated. One of my other pursuits has been getting the Kansas Munsee Tribe restored to federal recognition since 2004.

You all talk about the fake Colorado Munsees on here. Fake they are. I've been to Moraviantown and Munseytown. I work with a 87 year old
Munsee woman who attended boarding schools here. I've found all kinds of BIA info on these people. However the BIA isn't the all it's cracked up to be. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming. I personally don't trust the objectivity of the BIA. You must be sooo blindly trusting of their records .
I'm in Kansas. E-mail Professor Matte. I have.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 24, 2011, 05:01:26 am
I found a picture earlier of Miss Indian Alabama 2008 who was a Mowa Choctaw tribal member at the Mowa Pow-Wow with Geronimo's
great-grandson in the picture with her. Gee, I wonder why this would occur...this is what frauds do right?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on January 24, 2011, 01:42:14 pm
I deal with nahollo historians constantly who completely dismiss oral tradition from tribal people. it's ridiculous when indigenous historians
act like nahollos concerning oral tradition. I've spent fifteen years on my own ancestry in spite of the MCR designation on the Dawes Rolls.
When my grandfather mentioned the ancestry there was no internet. There were universities and libraries with microfilm. I found the
names of relatives of my ancestors who did apply unsuccessfully for Dawes. After the initial denial and the long trek to Indian Terr.
the rest of the family basically forgot about the enrollment process and my great-grandmothers people didn't bother to apply. I have
my relatives on there but not my great-grandmother directly. I have a 64 year old picture of my late mother and great-grandmother
in Richton. MS. That's it. I lived in the deep South in the 1970's as a child. I wrote in my book Hina Falaya about my father's experience in being
warned in a racist manner to avoid the Redbones north of Moss Bluff, LA back then. People had no access to censuses, legal rights,
nothing. As far as proof, why don't you quit talking down on the Mowas here and contact them yourself. They have a 300 acre rez
north of Mobile, AL. I've been there....have you? They have a cultural center there. They have friends in the Miss Choctaw communities
now that Philip Martin isn't lobbying against them or anyone else for that matter. I have Kansas Kickapoo co-workers at my job
who talk of their people being one of the 34 members of federally recognized communities who live on the Mowa Rez married to Mowa
tribal members. Are those people as unknowingly indicting as you all are on here. Talk goes on without direct contact or conversation.
Do research if you're educated. One of my other pursuits has been getting the Kansas Munsee Tribe restored to federal recognition since 2004.

You all talk about the fake Colorado Munsees on here. Fake they are. I've been to Moraviantown and Munseytown. I work with a 87 year old
Munsee woman who attended boarding schools here. I've found all kinds of BIA info on these people. However the BIA isn't the all it's cracked up to be. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming. I personally don't trust the objectivity of the BIA. You must be sooo blindly trusting of their records .
I'm in Kansas. E-mail Professor Matte. I have.

IOW, you want us to take their word for it, and you're too lazy to post any proof, preferring to go off on rants.

Some of your other points:
No, they don't have a reservation. They have land. Until they're recognized and the land is legally protected, it's not a rez.
I grew up in the south in the 70s too. Big deal.
And who you claim some of the Mowa have married doesn't prove a thing. Same with your later post. Who a powwow princess has a photo taken with doesn't prove anything.
You really need to do better than imagining a conspiracy between the BIA, Martin, DNA testing, white historians, and who knows who else. It doesn't help the Mowa, your case, or you.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on January 24, 2011, 11:59:41 pm
tuschkahouma said
Quote
These people were mislabeled as Cajans to deny their existence.

As I mentioned before, and according to the BIA document, the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians weren’t denied Federal Recognition on the basis of one single issue such as racial classifications on censuses, but their denial was based on many different factors.  But as far as the term “Cajan” goes, there is no evidence that the MOWA’s ancestors were really Indians, but were labeled as “Cajan” “to deny their existence” as you say. Also, there were a few Authentic Mississippi Choctaws in that area at the time, and they were all classified as “Indians”.  

Here is what was found on the term “Cajan” on p 21 of the BIA document.
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf (http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf)


Quote
Development and Usage of the Term "Cajan.

The term "Cajan" as used to describe the petitioner's ancestors seems to have been an artificial one, developed in the second half of the nineteenth century to distinguish them both from the Catholic Creoles of color in Mobile and Baldwin Counties, Alabama, and from the population of emancipated slaves (Green 1941, 8 ) .  No contemporary documentation was presented to indicate the term’s earliest use.  According to oral tradition, Alabama State Senator, L.W. McRae assigned the name: to the group, who were among his constituents, about 1885 (Green 1941, 8; Price 1951, 55). This would be approximately the date of the first miscegenation case affecting the Reed family.  The similarity of "Cajan" to the Louisiana usage of "Cajun" has upon occasion resulted in the assumption that this group was of Acadian ancestry (cf. Alabama School Journal, April 1931 in MOWA Pet. 1988, EX.). In 1934, local tradition, as reported to writer Carl Carmer, was that Daniel Reed, "had big family 0’ sons and daughters an' they all looked white and' they' all married white. Reckon one of 'em married French an' that was where the name Cajan comes from" (Carmer 1934, 259).
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 26, 2011, 02:07:37 am
I'm not ranting. We're just at a point where you don't want to admit otherwise. Does Vine Deloria vouching for them mean anything?
I met him twice before he passed away through Professor Dan Wildcat. I asked him to sign They Say The Wind is Red. He told me it was a
sham how the Mowas were being treated and he explained this in his forward writing in that book. Just like what Eric Plecker did
with the Monacans, Mattiponis, Nansemonds, Chickahominies, and Rhappahannocks in VA, these people were erased on paper by omission
in the past. I had a 30 minute arguement with a Tom Coburn staffer after that senator blocked their recognition bill because of what Mr.
Plecker did in the office of racial purity in Virginia until the 1950's. Don't call the Mowas fakes when people called them Cajans to derail
their real identities. Refuting your assertions isn't ranting.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on January 27, 2011, 03:17:08 pm
I'm not ranting. We're just at a point where you don't want to admit otherwise. Does Vine Deloria vouching for them mean anything?
I met him twice before he passed away through Professor Dan Wildcat. I asked him to sign They Say The Wind is Red. He told me it was a
sham how the Mowas were being treated and he explained this in his forward writing in that book. Just like what Eric Plecker did
with the Monacans, Mattiponis, Nansemonds, Chickahominies, and Rhappahannocks in VA, these people were erased on paper by omission
in the past. I had a 30 minute arguement with a Tom Coburn staffer after that senator blocked their recognition bill because of what Mr.
Plecker did in the office of racial purity in Virginia until the 1950's. Don't call the Mowas fakes when people called them Cajans to derail
their real identities. Refuting your assertions isn't ranting.

But you haven't refuted anyone's assertions. You don't even answer almost all of them. "You don't want to admit otherwise" is what applies to you, not me, not Blackwolf. We can only go by what proof we see, and you keep refusing to provide that, and just ignore the evidence we keep presenting to you.

So for the third time, can you provide any actual proof of Apache descent among the Mowas? How could it be possible when the Chiricahuas were under incredibly heavy guard, with reporters watching every move, in that time's version of a media circus?

Do you have any proof of Deloria making these comments? I haven't found your book mentioned online. Is there a way to look inside your book and see the forward, the way both amazon and google routinely do?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 29, 2011, 06:28:11 am
Mr. Deloria made these comments to me in a classroom setting with Professor Dan Wildcat at Haskell seven years ago when I brought
the book on the Mowas and the Demaillie treaty book set that Professor Deloria also worked on. I also had a one hour listening session
as Professors Donald Fixico, Dan Wildcat, and Vine Deloria, Jr. spoke at a table in the Holidome Lounge in Lawrence, KS after a conference
I attended. Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?   Professor Deloria wrote the forward for that book as I previously stated.
My book is being edited currently. I have it on PDF form currently. All 75,396 words of it. I also found a story on the PBS We Shall
Remain website dealing with the Calcedeaver Choctaw School and the language revitalization program. So far, I've referenced the
late Vine Deloria, Jr, and PBS. You would think that these people and entities would want to distance themselves from frauds.
After all, Mr. Deloria didn't mince words about new agers and frauds, did he?  PBS dealt with the Nipmuc Community in Massachusetts
concerning a segment on Metacomet and the Wampanoags. Both of these entities have high standards. The Mowas and other
state tribes are so fake that Mr. Deloria and PBS don't want to deal with them right?  There is no sarcasm here...not at all.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tk on January 29, 2011, 02:48:16 pm
Minor point:

... the Demaillie treaty book set that Professor Deloria also worked on.

The "treaty book" was actually Vine's idea (my paychecks for archival research were signed by Vine); Ray Demallie's role was to shepherd it to final production.

tk
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 30, 2011, 02:04:53 am
my apologies. Professor Deloria was a force of nature in his lifetime. Lawyer, bookwriter, ordained minister, professor, were titles he wore
in his more than seventy years of life on this earth. I was speechless as I listened to those professors speak. I greatly appreciate the
work on those treaty books. I found an 1868 rejected Munsee treaty in those books. I was looking for the 1864 Munsee treaty where
the US Government and Kansas were trying to get the Munsees and Chippewas to citizenize. It was rejected also. I used those books
and the Kappler online OSU treaty database to research all of the promises of education made in return for the cessions of land as
part of the Civilization Act of March 3, 1819 to prove that the Haskell campus and wetlands were paid for with indian monies from
land cessions when I began fighting the South Lawrence Trafficway a decade ago. I found as many as 75 treaties with education
promised in return for land cessions between 1820 and 1880. I'm a researcher out of necessity for the Munsee or Christian Tribe
of Indians in Kansas in their pursuit to be restored to federal recognition by a congress in the future. The Dumblicans now make it
impossible for such endeavors. I've drawn up IRA Constitutions for them, found tribal rolls in Topeka, Tulsa, and OKC for them
and researched how ARTICLE 6 of the Dawes Allotment Act was used to citizenize and dissolve their federal recognition between
1897 and 1900. I've started learning the Munsee language with the CD set from the Stockbridges and the O' Meara dicitionary
of Munsee Delaware that I purchased for less the $75 and the book is now out of print and going for almost $700. I wear like
four or five hats in this endeavor and have been involved since May 2004 with them. Thet now have two pro-bono legal accounts
to assist them with this endeavor. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming about the Mowa Choctaws and Munsees in the pasr. Again, Sorry
for the mistake.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on January 30, 2011, 02:19:00 pm
Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?   Professor Deloria wrote the forward for that book as I previously stated.
My book is being edited currently. I have it on PDF form currently. All 75,396 words of it. I also found a story on the PBS We Shall
Remain website dealing with the Calcedeaver Choctaw School and the language revitalization program.

Now this is much more like it, very credible and strong evidence, exactly what we kept asking you for.
http://www.amazon.com/They-Say-Wind-Red-Choctaw-Lost/dp/1588380793/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296396329&sr=8-1

It does seem the author has a very strong case, judging by the reception it's gotten.

I went to H-Net, academic listservs. Found this endorsement of their case by Deloria.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-amindian&month=0212&week=a&msg=yUpkgjexJ590avobgnUT6w&user=&pw=

There's also a comment by a Professor Morris Simon on the Mowa and Cajans. According to the evidence gathered by a grad student of his, the Cajans were mixed Black and white who later joined the Mowa or identified as Natives.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-south&month=9912&week=b&msg=dezJ4fQ6//3YoZYAiQgepw&user=&pw=

That seems like a credible explanation of what DNA evidence found.

I still haven't seen any credible evidence or explanation for the claims of Apache ancestry.
ETA: Simon's memory of what happened to the Apache at Mt. Vernon is off quite a bit.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on January 30, 2011, 04:49:50 pm
I mentioned They say the Wind is Red at least four times in my postings. Did you not realize this was a written book by a researcher
Jacquiline Matte that was part of their submission to the BIA in the late 1990's?  You all have been going off of a BIA determination
that was a by product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth, which it is not. Chief Taylor went
to D.C. and picked up boxes of documentation the Mowas sent that were never opened, researched or dealt with. The BIA ignored
loads of documentation that refuted the garbage you all have spoken of the Mowas on here and yet you all were the water carriers
for the BIA as they were influenced by Chief Martin, Jack Abramov and those GOP scoundrels of the late 1990's. Both the Mowas
and the Poarch Creeks signed up on the Cherokee rolls in the late 19th and early 20th centuries because all they heard was the word
tribal roll. No one had cared about either tribes for a century at that time. If you're using that MOWA racial documentation article from Wikipedia
that article is total garbage. Reciting it and the subsequent lies that were born of it and repeated doesn't make me think much of your
scholarship. The people around Mt. Vernon and Citronelle are browner than their neighbors. That's why people were suspicious of them
in the first place in the racist south. They look the part and can't run away from it.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on January 31, 2011, 04:10:27 am
tuschkahouma said
Quote
Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?

Can you give us some examples from the book that make the case for the MOWAs?

tuschkahouma said

Quote
You all have been going off of a BIA determination that was a by  product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth,which it is not.

What exactly don’t you agree with in the Proposed Findings Against Acknowledgment of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians?  Can you give some specific examples of what you don’t agree with and why, backed up by evidence?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on January 31, 2011, 01:40:50 pm
I mentioned They say the Wind is Red at least four times in my postings. Did you not realize this was a written book by a researcher
Jacquiline Matte that was part of their submission to the BIA in the late 1990's?  You all have been going off of a BIA determination
that was a by product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth, which it is not. Chief Taylor went
to D.C. and picked up boxes of documentation the Mowas sent that were never opened, researched or dealt with. The BIA ignored
loads of documentation that refuted the garbage you all have spoken of the Mowas on here and yet you all were the water carriers
for the BIA as they were influenced by Chief Martin, Jack Abramov and those GOP scoundrels of the late 1990's. Both the Mowas
and the Poarch Creeks signed up on the Cherokee rolls in the late 19th and early 20th centuries because all they heard was the word
tribal roll. No one had cared about either tribes for a century at that time. If you're using that MOWA racial documentation article from Wikipedia
that article is total garbage. Reciting it and the subsequent lies that were born of it and repeated doesn't make me think much of your
scholarship. The people around Mt. Vernon and Citronelle are browner than their neighbors. That's why people were suspicious of them
in the first place in the racist south. They look the part and can't run away from it.

You mentioned that you asked Deloria to sign the book twice, and once you said we had not read the book, but didn't mention its contents. Since all of those comments were buried in much that was either unproven or irrelevant, it's not surprising I overlooked it.
The BIA is guilty of a lot of things, but the Acknowledgement branch is hardly lazy. They're swamped by applications of dozens of often dubious groups. And again, we go by any evidence we see, or don't see. The best example of the last is that you are still dodging the question of how anyone from the outside could have conceived kids in heavily guarded Mt Vernon barracks. Isuppose I'll resign myself to not getting an answer from you on that.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: likeman on January 31, 2011, 07:34:47 pm
[i guess you guys pick on mowa band now sheesh i am choctaw we known about this guys for ever we also know there is also apache in lousiana because of apaches jumpming off the train
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: likeman on January 31, 2011, 10:04:16 pm
blackwolf what is your family tribe?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 01, 2011, 05:01:07 am
concerning the Choctaw Apache people of LA, I grew up southeast of Zwolle, Ebarb, and Many, in Moss Bluff, LA, just north of Lake Charles.
This area was at the top of the Neutral Zone that existed before the boundaries of Texas and LA were formally established. Mission Adaes
was east of the area. Choctaws had been coming to LA to hunt. Ouachita is from Owa Chito which in Choctaw means Big Hunt. I also
lived at Jonesville, LA for a short time before Moss Bluff and there were Choctaws in that area. Choctaws were removed past Jonesville
up the Ouachita River to Ark and removed on foot to Indian Territory. Then Agent John Sibley sent Choctaws to the area where Toledo
Bend is now. The Spanish authorities sold Lipan Apache people as slaves to the Choctaw people. There were also Nahautl or Aztec
people who came to this outpost. That community is part Lipan, Part Choctaw, and Part Nahautl. It has existed since the 1780's.
The Choctaws realize that with the size of their tribe, they've left people behind historically. The Jena Band is fed, the Clifton Choctaw,
and Choctaw-Apache are state, and there are numerous Choctaw Biloxi descendants in LA. I've been in language classes with fed
and non fed indians. We all know the Choctaw language to some extent. I wish other tribes were open accepting and not judgemental
like the Choctaws are. This is not to say they accept fakes. They accept people that know the history. Leave the Mowas alone.
I doubt they'd want to go through the discrimination they've gone through to be called fakes by people who rely on a BIA ruling that
was political in nature and not factual at all.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on February 01, 2011, 12:56:19 pm
ok i read all the post,
and to be federal recognized you have to fit in to this criteria 
I know I know The BIA is mean to you.
The Criteria is simple and you must prove that you are a established government
my Nation has always been our own government we have always had a government
until 1885 then we reestablished in 1911. We don't need abook to tell us who we are.
If you are legal then how many tribal nations support you?
Plus Vine Deloria Jr. is an Enrolled member of my tribe and he is not a person
who can say who is a member of a nation and who is not.

BIA CRITERIA FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION

Under the BIA's regulations, a tribe may petition the interior secretary for recognition. The petition must meet seven criteria. It must contain:

1. statement of facts establishing that the tribe has been identified from historical times until the present on a substantially continuous basis as "American Indian" or "aboriginal;"
2. Evidence that a substantial portion of the group inhabits a specific area or lives in a community viewed as American Indian and distinct from other populations in the area, and that its members are descendants of an Indian tribe which historically inhabited a specific area;
3. Evidence that the tribe has maintained tribal political authority or influence over its members as an autonomous entity throughout history until the present;
4. A copy of the tribe's governing document, including membership criteria, or, if it does not have a formal governing document, a description of its membership criteria and governing procedures;
5. An official membership list, any available former lists, and evidence that current members descend from a historic tribe or tribes that combined into a single autonomous political entity;
6. Evidence that the tribe consists mainly of people who are not members of an acknowledged North American Indian tribe; and
7. A statement that the tribe is not the subject of the congressional legislation that has terminated or forbidden the federal trust relationship (per 25 CFR
§ 83. 7a-g)*.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 02, 2011, 12:28:02 am
firstly, the area where the mowas are from is the okla hannali or six towns of the choctaw nation. It was treatied away in the treaty
of Hoe Buckintoopa in 1803. So the mowa choctaws live in an area that has always been choctaw. One of the problems is finding
out when the choctaw people in question went from choctaw to english surnames and how this was accomplished. there are tribal
rolls of choctaws from the mowa area that were not in english from the 1850's. My Choctaw ancestor had an english surname.
The irony in all of this is that the MS Band of Choctaw Indians had no federal recognition from 1831 to 1917. They like the Mowas
were on the land of churches and looked after by missionaries except for the Bok Chito community that pushed missionaries away.
When a tribe has no chance to treaty with the US, they are simply overlooked and ignored.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 02, 2011, 03:05:18 pm
tuschkahouma said

Quote
firstly, the area where the mowas are from is the okla hannali or six towns of the choctaw nation. It was treatied away in the treaty
of Hoe Buckintoopa in 1803. So the mowa choctaws live in an area that has always been choctaw.


The MOWAs claims as to the location of the Six Towns of the Choctaw Nation was disputed in their Hearings for Federal Recognition before the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs in 1991.

Quote
One of the errors which need to be corrected involves the location of the Six Towns District (the Okla Hannali) of the Choctaw Nation and that of Yowani Village.

Quote
First, numerous times in the testimony of June 26th, the statement is made that Yowani village and the Six Towns District were in Alabama (Tab 4, part 3, page 1; Tab 5, part 1, page 1; Tab 5, part 2, page 5-6; Tab 7, page 1; as well as many other references to the Six Towns and Yowani which imply but do not say they were in Alabama).  This is totally inaccurate.  The Six Towns ( Yellow Canes, Bouctoulouctsi, Tala, Nachououenya, Sanacha and Toussana { Rowland, Sanders, and Gallaway 1984:280, 295} were located along   Souinlovey Creek and Tarlow Creek, both on the West Side of the Chunky River, in northern Jasper and southern Newton counties, Mississippi ( see figures 2, 5, and 6).  Yowani village, which was not part of the Six Towns, was located on the Chickasawhay River, in the extreme northern portion of Wayne County, Mississippi (See figure 2, 5, and 60.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 05, 2011, 01:51:07 am
At the MOWA Choctaw hearing for Federal Recognition, the alleged Apache/MOWA Choctaw connection was also brought up in testimony.   According to the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid,  as was told by a MOWA Supporter and retired Anthropologist, the Apaches who were at MT. Vernon, allegedly raided a MOWA Choctaw funeral, stole their Sofki, threw a party for themselves, and then stole a MOWA Choctaw Baby.  Sofki is a fermented corn liquor.  The Apache ancestry story appears to be fairly prevalent with many MOWAS.


Here is the recorded testimony of Margaret Z. Searcy, a retired University of Alabama Anthropologist.  The story appears to have come from the MOWA Choctaw Chairman at the time, Framon Weaver.

Quote
One of the things I learned in talking to Mr. Weaver, was the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid.  I asked him to tell me about some of the things that happened in the past.  I was thinking in terms of old Searcy Hospital that at one time was a Federal Fort.  I asked him to tell me about that.
He said, “Well, Mrs. Searcy, I can tell you about Geronimo when Geronimo was there.”  I encouraged him to do so because after Geronimo and the Apaches were captured they were taken and kept at Searcy Hospital.  Federal soldiers allowed the Indians to go out and farm during the daytime.  I think Geronimo had to stay locked up, but the Apaches reported back to the fort every night.
When they went out, the MOWA were about to have a funeral.  They have distinct individual funeral customs.  For each funeral they prepared 10 gallons of sofki.  What is sofki?  It is fermented corn liquor.  So here were the MOWA with 10 gallons of fermented corn liquor for the wake.  While the Apaches were out, they stole the Mowa’s sofki, they had their own party, and then they stole the baby.
I asked what happened.  It seems that the Federal Government recognized that the Mowa had been deprived of their liquor and they replaced it.  I asked about the baby.  He told me that the baby was returned to the Mowa.

It is also interesting that at the Mowa Choctaw Cultural Center, besides having a Choctaw room, also has a Geronimo Room, and a Cherokee Room.  

http://www.alabama.travel/alabama-attractions/mowa_choctaw_cultural_center.html (http://www.alabama.travel/alabama-attractions/mowa_choctaw_cultural_center.html)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: wolfhawaii on February 05, 2011, 06:06:14 pm
That's interesting.....never heard of sofkey being alcoholic, just corn soup. This story does not seem credible to me.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 06, 2011, 07:11:10 am
blackwolf for living in the south, there's something you've obivously missed that I've previously stated. Many tribes in the south, some of them
being fed tribes and some being state tribes, are comprised of absorbed smaller communities or remnants of tribes. There are many examples
of this occuring. #1 Tunica-Biloxi tribe is comprised of Tunica, Biloxi, Ofo, Avoyelle, and Choctaw peoples. #2 Muscogee Creeks have Yuchi,
Natchez, Shawnee, and Yamasee people on their rolls. #3 Haliwa-Saponi people have Saponi, Nottaway, and Nansemond peoples amongst them.
There are Choctaws enrolled as Chickasaws and vice versa in Oklahoma. #4 Both Grande Ronde and Warm Springs rezs in Oregon have multiple
tribes with different languistic histories leading to the creation of the Chinook jargon language. You keep picking at the same point while
ignoring similar circumstances in other fed tribal communities. someone needs to do their research or throw up the flag.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on February 06, 2011, 03:35:34 pm
We have many reservations that have many tribes within them.
That is with many nations.
My concern is

Did you have a traditional Government that continued to today?
I am not talking about IRA Governments.

Do the relative/closly relatived tribes accept you as their people?

Do you have written documents from the tribes saying you are related?

Does the Apache nations accept your group and have they wrote support
letters to that fact?

Do you know how many Apache had children in your area do you have a count?

Do you have the Apache names of the decsendant because that can be traced.
 
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 07, 2011, 01:36:24 am
I currently live away from that area however previously I've seen in person Choctaw artwork for sale from a McIntosh, AL artisan in
the MS Choctaw Giftshop on the Pearl River Rez next to the museum in the community services area by the stickball arena. McIntosh
is Mowa Choctaw area. After Philip Martin lost to Beasley Denson Cedric Sunray was invited to speak on the MS Choctaw rez and wrote
about it in an article that is probably still on the internet addressing the tribal relationship between the Mowas and The MS Band of Choctaw
Indians post Philip Martin and the hope for the future after Mr. Martin used his Abramov connection to lobby against the Mowas recognition
in the past. I was one of three witnesses to Sunray versus Martin at an OU tribal symposium five years ago. The other two were Ryan
RedCorn and Cedric's daughter. The Mowas were invited to the internment of Choctaw remains as were Clifton, MS Band, and Jena
Band of Choctaws as referenced in the Matte book on the Mowas. Let's see, Cedric goes to Pearl River and speaks and goes
to numerous indigenous communities all over this country and stands behind the legitimate and ignored as some indigenous
people choose to go nahollo and ask for papers from a time of paper genocide. nice.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 07, 2011, 03:56:41 am
wow, I was going on yahoo for the heck of it and saw the tribal recognition database with the Mowas, The Poarch Creeks, the Miamis
of Indiana, and the Delaware-Muncie tribes from 2004. The Poarch Creeks were recognized in 1984, the Indiana Miamis were illegally
denied recognition after 1897, the Mowas were lobbied against by the Poarch Creeks and Ms Choctaws and yet supported by the
Tunica-Biloxis, and the Kansas Munsees were terminated by an act of the 55th US Congress in 1897. Someone on your postings
put the whole list on and yes there are scads of fake tribes on there. Please be educated enough to figure out things as I have
over the years.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: lilred4220 on February 11, 2011, 02:40:30 am
First off the Mowa's are not frauds and second one of the reasons we can't get recognized is because they will not take some of the people that don't belong on our role off. They keep letting people that are just married in on the role and aren't any blood at all. I also have 5 years or more worth the research that proves we are related to the MS Choctaws and Poarch Band of Greedy (Not all just most of them) Creeks plus a DNA on top of it. I am currently in the process of up grading my dna test also.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 13, 2011, 12:19:38 am
tuschkahouma said

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I currently live away from that area however previously I've seen in person Choctaw artwork for sale from a McIntosh, AL artisan in the MS Choctaw Giftshop on the Pearl River Rez next to the museum in the community services area by the stickball arena. McIntosh is Mowa Choctaw area.

Just because a gift shop on a Reservation or in a Tribal Community sells an individual’s Artwork, that in itself is no proof whatsoever that the Artist is Indian.  Being a member of a State Recognized Tribe, as the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians are, is not proof that someone has Indian ancestry. 
In fact there is a loophole in the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 that allows state Recognized Tribes to sell their craft work as Indian.  While I do say that not all State Recognized Tribes are fakes, as others here have also pointed out, most of these State Recognized Tribes in the Southeast require little to no evidence at all of Indian decent, let alone being a continuous Sovereign Tribal Government.   The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians is a good example of this.  The evidence shows that 98% of their members at the time of the BIA Proposed Finding , could not verify a drop of Indian blood in over 200 years of history. 
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 13, 2011, 12:30:22 am
tuschkahouma said

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After Philip Martin lost to Beasley Denson Cedric Sunray was invited to speak on the MS Choctaw rez and wrote about it in an article that is probably still on the internet addressing the tribal relationship between the Mowas and The MS Band of Choctaw Indians post Philip Martin and the hope for the future after Mr. Martin used his Abramov connection to lobby against the Mowas recognition in the past.

Does the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians as a Tribal Government support the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians?  If you’re going to make allegations about Philip Martin, then post your proof.  Phillip Martin lobbied for his Tribe.  Good for him!  He was also a Choctaw Warrior, and an individual that worked for over 40 years helping his people. 

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Martin's influence reached beyond Mississippi. He was the first president of the Board of Regents of Haskell Indian Junior College, now Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence Kan. He also served as president of the National Tribal Chairmen's Association and president of United Sou th and Eastern Tribes Inc.


After Martin’s passing, Beasley Denson, current Chief of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians had kind words to say for the old Warrior.

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"He was a great man and a visionary leader ... He transformed the economy of our Tribe and with it the fate of our people," said Miko Beasley Denson, the current chief who defeated Martin in 2007.
http://obits.nola.com/obituaries/nola/obituary.aspx?n=phillip-martin&pid=139394844

He was also praised by Gov. Haley Barbour,

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"His attention to economic development while preserving the cultural aspects of Native American life in Mississippi will be long remembered," Barbour said in a statement.

US Senator Roger Wicker, R-Mississippi said,

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U.S. Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., said Martin "inspired his people" and "created hope and opportunity for Mississippi Choctaws."

Tuschkahouma, if you’re going to come on here and make accusations about a deceased and Respected Indian leader who dedicated his entire life to his people and his community, not to mention being a Choctaw Warrior who spent 10 years in the Air Force, then I suggest you back up your statements with some evidence. 
The charges appear to be that the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians via Chief Phillip Martin lobbied against the MOWAS because they didn’t want competition for their Casinos.  They allege also some sort of collusion with the BIA Acknowledgment Office in regards to their Proposed Findings.  But could it be possible that the reason why Choctaw Chief Phillip Martin was so adamantly opposed to the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians Federal recognition, was because he knows the History of his people and knows that the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians aren’t his relatives?  And possibly he saw these people as appropriating a Choctaw identity that does not belong to them? 
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on February 13, 2011, 02:33:23 pm
First off the Mowa's are not frauds and second one of the reasons we can't get recognized is because they will not take some of the people that don't belong on our role off. They keep letting people that are just married in on the role and aren't any blood at all. I also have 5 years or more worth the research that proves we are related to the MS Choctaws and Poarch Band of Greedy (Not all just most of them) Creeks plus a DNA on top of it. I am currently in the process of up grading my dna test also.

Hello,
It's not clear who the "they" you refer to who are. The Mowa leaders? Or the "evil" govt?
There are also some threads in here on those DNA tests you may want to read. They're not always accurate, esp on the mother's side. For the most they can only prove Native ancestry, not specific tribes.
And any evidence you have, pls post.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 13, 2011, 03:53:51 pm
tuschkahouma said

Quote
I was one of three witnesses to Sunray versus Martin at an OU tribal symposium five years ago.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4040761202639355269# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4040761202639355269#)

You must be talking about this incident?  What was accomplished there at the Symposium besides Indian leaders being rudely interrupted by outsiders?  Since you were a witness there, why don’t you give us some insight?

At this Symposium, Cedric Sunray confronts Phillip Martin and directly accuses him of various charges.  They were going to call security on Sunray.  Sunray’s upset that the MOWAS don’t have Federal Recognition.  Phillip Martin was adamantly opposed to the MOWAs Federal Recognition.   He also brings up money and Jack Abramoff a few times.  He also implies that money is being denied to his alleged Choctaw Community.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 14, 2011, 05:58:54 am
Battles over issues of blood quantum, federal recognition, cultural & language retention, historical alliances and of course gaming, have caused lines of division not unlike those faced by communities across Indian Country. The architect of many of these divisions, Mississippi Choctaw Chief Phillip Martin watched his meteoric rise and pronouncement as an economic powerhouse crumble in recent days due to his close association with non-Indian lobbyists, politicians and anthropologists who reeked havoc on neighboring Choctaw communities by overturning federal recognition petitions and postponing land in to trust applications.

So last Friday, on the day he conceded victory to his challenger Beasley Denson, we watched the opening rounds of the annual stickball tournament across the street from the tribal complex and office where he led his tribe for 7 terms. While standing there, numerous community members approached me with outstretched hands and words of greetings and thanks in our Choctaw language. Many people in the Mississippi Choctaw & MOWA Choctaw communities, as well as numerous Indian people from various tribes across the nation, had spent a great deal of time over the past few years, advocating for the rights of the Mississippi Choctaw people and exposing the fraud committed against the MOWA Choctaw community 120 miles to the southeast who were thought to be possible competition in the gaming industry. For years, the same tactics were played against the now federally recognized Jena Band of Choctaw Indians in Louisiana. Twelve years after their federal recognition, they are just now being able to take land into trust for the purposes of economically and socially growing their community.

While Jack Abramoff, J. Steven Griles and a host of others associated with Chief Phillip Martin’s administration are now serving jail terms or awaiting trial, Mr. Martin has been able to use the tribe’s federal immunities to ward off investigations into his role in the matter. Of course, little of this matters now as power has been rested from his hands."

Get the Story:
Cedric Sunray: Will The Choctaw Nation Please Stand Up (The Native American Times 7/26)

GEE Blackwolf I guess this doesn't prove anything either does it?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 15, 2011, 06:12:15 am
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Let's see, Cedric goes to Pearl River and speaks and goes to numerous indigenous communities all over this country and stands behind the legitimate and ignored as some indigenous people choose to go nahollo and ask for papers from a time of paper genocide. nice.

Just because a speaker who claims to be Indian is invited on a Reservation or Tribal community to speak by someone doesn’t mean anything one way or the other.   Just because someone gets a degree in Native American studies or Tribal languages that in itself is no evidence that this person is Indian.  If an American gets a degree in German studies and culture, that does not make someone German.  They would just be an American with a degree.  

You speak of Cedric Sunray as if everyone is supposed to know who he is.  Cedric Sunray, allegedly Cherokee/Choctaw/Houma/Ojibwa, moved to Oklahoma some years back.  At some point, he got a job teaching the Cherokee language at Tahlequah High School.  Tahlequah is located in Northeast Oklahoma and is the capital of the Cherokee Nation.  He claimed to be Cherokee at the time.  People started to ask questions about who he was and his claims to being Cherokee.    Probably reasonable questions that would be asked of any stranger that shows up in any Tribal Community.

In addition to his attacks on the Respected Choctaw Chief Phillip Martin, he also has had conflicts with elected officials of the Cherokee Nation including Cherokee Nation District 7 Representative and Deputy Speaker Cara Cowen Watts amongst others.  It was also reported in the Cherokee Phoenix that the Pawnee Nation filed criminal charges against him.  It appears he spends much of his time in conflict with Indian people.

Here are some quotes from the article by District 7 Cherokee Nation Tribal Council Representative Cara Cowen Watts as reported in the Cherokee Phoenix in July of 2009.  This is in response to one of his many racially charged attacks on Cherokee citizens.

Quote
Before you give too much credit to Mr. Sunray’s letter, know this.  His original surname is Ray. But that did not sound “Indian” enough so he added “Sun” and became “Sunray.” He is not an American Indian in the same sense as Cherokee citizens, where we can be prosecuted in tribal court.
 

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Recently, the Pawnee Nation filed criminal charges on him. Representing himself, he filed a brief for dismissal stating he is not an American Indian subject to tribal jurisdictions and tribal laws. I am unsure why he is insists on claiming to be Indian. I guess he makes these claims when it is convenient for him in his pursuit of a personal identity.


Quote
He claims heritage to various so-called tribal communities. At one point, he claimed to be Cherokee and speak Cherokee. Later, Choctaw was the claim and so on. Unfortunately for Indian Country, he continues to find jobs with unsuspecting tribes. While playing Cherokee, he came to Tahlequah and taught our children how to sing “Ten Little Indians.” Somehow, I do not find that culturally appropriate or Cherokee.

Since you’ve brought up Cedric Sunray more than once here, please tell us who he is?  What Tribal Nation does Cedric Sunray represent?  Where is his Cherokee family from?    His he from the Eastern Band, Cherokee Nation or United Keetoowah Band?  If not, is he a descendent?  If so, what Cherokee family and community does Cedric Sunray descend from?  
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Rattlebone on February 15, 2011, 05:12:56 pm
Tuschkahouma,


 I have some questions I would ask and a few points I would like to make. I would also like to state that I am entering this discussion from a stand point of neither being for or against recognition of the Mowa Choctaw. I will put my actual questions to you here in italics.

 First of all I think you made a good argument about the "race" of some people being switched on paper by the powers that be so that who they really are might not be traceable now. However even if that is true, it could be possible that this could be the case for countless other people.

So my question here is when do you think a line should be drawn on this matter to say that one group or even individuals should be recognized or not by the federal government based on records that can not prove their claims?

I myself don't necessarily think BIA or US government is necessarily trying to do wrong to those who claim to be Mowa Choctaw, but rather is just basing their decision on the records that are available or that information which can be researched.

 In answering my above question and point of view I am sure you are going to present the argument that the Mowa Choctaw are an actual native community with a long standing existence, even if they can not prove their ties to Choctaw ancestry.

So to that I would like to ask, if what you and the rest of the Mowa's say is true, then why do you really need federal recognition?

Why not just live within your community as a member of that community and be happy and proud to be who you are?

Being Indian is not something that  requires recognition of a colonial power, and so if you are really who you say you are; why do you feel this need to be federally recognized?

 
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 16, 2011, 06:49:15 am
firstly, cedric sunray is an enrolled member of the Wabasseemoong Independant Ojibwe Nation in Ontario, Canada through his mother's people.
He is a status Indian in Canada. He is Mowa Choctaw through his late father. The history that none of you seem to get here is that in Alabama
the Mowa Choctaws were not allowed in public school as Indians through most of the 20th century. They went to school at Bacone College
in Muscogee, OK, as Indians that weren't federally recognized over 60 years ago. In the South prior to the Brown V. Topeka Board of Education
ruling, Indians weren't allowed into white schools in places like Houma, LA, Mt. Vernon, AL, and Robeson, NC. They went to segregated Indian
schools.This is common historical knowledge which has obviously been overlooked by the people who don't research on this website. This
is what the Haskell Endangered Legacy Project is about. In other parts of this website you acknowledge the legitimacy of the Virginia tribes
of the Powhattan Confederacy and the Nanticokes of Delaware whom C.S. Weslager wrote about but you all have been on a denial path with
the Mowas who attended Bacone and Haskell and Cherokee schools in NC and Choctaw schools in MS. All of the Cara Cowen Watts stuff
is total bs. The CNO started requiring Indian cards for the CNO Cherokee language classes. He called them out for this because most of their
members have less BQ than I do and Indian looking people like the Mowas get nothing. They didn't like being called out and they carried on a
vendetta against him that is baseless. He worked with the Pawnee language at Pawnee, He worked with the Sac and Fox language at Stroud,
He worked with the Cherokee language at Tahlequah and he worked with the Chickasaw language at Ada. He is a college trained linguist and
never claimed to be a member of any of these tribes. He  even worked with the Yuchi people and their language near Sapulpa. He like me
had ancestors in Alabama of mixed Cherokee descent. I claim Choctaw and Biloxi through Shepard, Breland and Turner ancestors and Cherokee
through Byrd ancestors but I don't claim to be enrolled in Oklahoma. I'm open about being not enrolled with ancestors on the Dawes MCR list.
Prior to statehood in that area there were settlers of low social status who married mixed blood people before Jim Crow or misgenation
laws. I'm Scotch-Irish and German by my dad and and Scotch Irish German, English, Choctaw, Biloxi, and Cherokee by my mom. My
white ancestors were in VA in the 1600's and NC and SC from the 1690's to 1715. They arrived in MS in 1800 going across AL from the
Carolinas. He railed against Philip Martin due to the lobbying that took place against the Mowa Choctaw people to stop tribal gaming
with Abramov, Scanlon and the GOP in the early 2000's.

On the second part of this recognition question I believe that a physically identifiable nation like the Apalachee tribe in LA should be
federally recognized in spite of no paperwork because they look Indian and they have family history to identify through while people
like the Machis or Lower Creek People who use a torah as a sacred object should not for obvious reasons.
The Mowas have Choctaw ancestors as do I who existed before and after removal. They also have people who were abosrbed into the
community who were cherokee and creek after the creek internal wars between the red sticks and white sticks between 1812 and 1815.
The Chiracahua Na Dene people have ancestors amongst the Mowas. As I've previously stated other federally recognized tribes have many ancestries amongst them and they're not being subjected to your inquiries. The federal recognition for the Mowas should happen because
the Choctaw descendants in the community should've received lands from the Dancing Rabbit Creek treaty article 14 AND DID NOT due to
then Choctaw Agent William Ward. The US should be like Canada and give Indian status to Metis who can prove tribal descent legitimately.
Most nations are either lowering BQ or going lineal descent anyway. You're trying to make this sound like an iskulli issue but these people
have been backwoods poor and exploited as such by nahollo okpulo for many years. They need legal protection as much of their lands
were lost to turpentine barons since the late 1800's. Obviously some of you don't acknowledge the power of the pen in the past at the hands
of racists.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on February 16, 2011, 06:16:49 pm
...The history that none of you seem to get here is that in Alabama
the Mowa Choctaws were not allowed in public school as Indians through most of the 20th century. They went to school at Bacone College
in Muscogee, OK, as Indians that weren't federally recognized over 60 years ago. In the South prior to the Brown V. Topeka Board of Education
ruling, Indians weren't allowed into white schools in places like Houma, LA, Mt. Vernon, AL, and Robeson, NC. They went to segregated Indian
schools.This is common historical knowledge which has obviously been overlooked by the people who don't research on this website. This
is what the Haskell Endangered Legacy Project is about. In other parts of this website you acknowledge the legitimacy of the Virginia tribes
of the Powhattan Confederacy and the Nanticokes of Delaware
whom C.S. Weslager wrote about but you all have been on a denial path with
the Mowas who attended Bacone and Haskell and Cherokee schools in NC and Choctaw schools in MS.
....As I've previously stated other federally recognized tribes have many ancestries amongst them and they're not being subjected to your inquiries.

I think most people following the thread do know these things. The very fact that you point out what is bolded above says that. And if you think we haven't had long discussions about other unrecognized groups you haven't looked around in here much. 

As far as your earlier article from Ray/Sunray, I couldn't find the article at the NAT website. Are their older articles not online? But since the article seems mostly to be his assertions, it doesn't necessarily prove much other than he made them. That's why I wanted to see the whole article, I was hoping he posted proof elsewhere in it.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 17, 2011, 12:15:47 am
tuschkahouma said

Quote
The history that none of you seem to get here is that in Alabama the Mowa Choctaws were not allowed in public school as Indians through most of the 20th century. They went to school at Bacone College in Muscogee, OK, as Indians that weren't federally recognized over 60 years ago.

Because certain members of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians attended or had family that attended Indian Boarding Schools, that does not prove that they are Indian. These insinuations are misleading.  Cedric Sunray’s articles on Indian Country Today only tell part of the story.  The Proposed Findings explains the situation in detail as to why this happened.  You can also look at some of the work of Horace Mann Bond who did research on the descendants of white men and African American women in Alabama and the situation in the Alabama School system for whites, blacks, and Mulattos.  Here are some excerpts of what was found by the BAR Researchers.  Starting at about page 24 of the Proposed Findings Document, it discusses the issues that went on in the School system at the time with Whites, Blacks, and Mulattos in that part of Alabama.  

Development of Alabama Miscegenation and School Segration Laws, 1852-1927
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf

Quote
The school situation in the area has been troubled for decades. In 1930 a court hearing was held in Washington County to determine whether or not two students from the isolate could be legally excluded from the white public schools. The court decided in favor of the school system, on the grounds that the children were "persons of color." In a similar case in Mobile County in the same year, the court reviewed evidence which showed that the persons in question did not "classify themselves as negroes, or socially so identify themselves." Yet genealogy proved to be all-important, and the judge of that trial wrote:


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The very conflicting and voluminous oral evidence admitted in this case is not so direct and persuasive to the Court as is the documentary evidence that these children have a drop or 1/64 negro blood through their maternal ancestor, and this regardless of such evidence touching their social relations in life. This case presents a most regrettable situation, but by our law and evidence as I find it, I must decree that they be assigned to other schools than those provided for the white race, .


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The upshot of these denials was that members of the group received little or no schooling. They refused to attend black schools, and for several years had none of their own. Eventually, a three school system was begun in both counties. Pupil assignments were made by the school superintendents, who on the basis of court rulings, were given full power


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The third school system was never adequately staffed or funded. Competing for tax dollars in an area where expenditures for white schools - not to mention black schools - has never been lavish, the third school system was at a great disadvantage. Hence, as late as 1969, there were schools where two teachers taught all 12 grades. Magnolia School, for example, had 44 students. The teacher I interviewed remembered teaching the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 12th grades all in one room. (No eleventh graders happened to be enrolled in Magnolia School that particular year.) Hill Spring School had the same arrangement, but with 60 students. Charity Chapel, with 90 students, had 3 teachers, and Pleasant View, with 120 students, had 4 teachers. All of these teachers, incidentally, were white. "They would not have accepted a Black teacher," one informant told us. "



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Those young people who have gone on to college usually have attended out-of-state schools. (Until recently they would have been denied admission at predominantly white universities in the state.) Approximately 20 students have attended Bacone College (Bacone, Oklahoma), a two-year school for Indians, sponsored by the American Baptist Convention. A few students have subsequently attended Northeastern State College (Tahlequah, Oklahoma). Practically all of these students have returned to the community upon completion of their college work. While in Oklahoma, some of the students have married Indians who have returned with them to Alabama
.

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1927-1960’s.. The "one-drop rule," or insistence that any amount of African ancestry  no matter how small, classified a descendant forever as Negro under the system of segregation, was not placed into the law of Alabama until after World War I--not until 1927. Green writes: In 1927 the Alabama Legislature changed the term, mulatto, to mean anyone of Negro. blood or person of color who is a descendant of a Negro ancestor regardless of the number of generations removed.  [Acts of Alabama Legislature 1927]. Therefore, it is noticeable that the laws of Alabama pertaining to the races are more strictly construed with  succeeding generations (Green 1941, 21).

And if we look back in the records to when the Mowa’s Ancestors started claiming Indian, it was about the time that laws pertaining to race became more strictly construed in Alabama.


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This 1927 change of the statute was followed by several lawsuit in the early 1930' s, directed at the school systems of Washington County and Mobile County, Alabama, pertaining primarily to the right of children from MBC ancestral families to continue attending white schools. In at least one case in Washington County, students who started school under the pre-1927 law were refused the right to graduate under the 1927 law (Washington County News, April 3, 1930)
Quote
The genealogical material collected by Aubrey D. Price (Price c. 1935), and submitted by the petitioner, was collected by the investigator primarily as the result of an attempt made by the Mobile County, Alabama, school system to ferret out those children whose families, accepted as white for the Past several generations, were now to be excluded from the white segregated school system on the grounds that they had limited amount of African ancestry (MOWA Pet. 1988, E::lC Mobile County Schools File; Aubrey D. Price File).

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on February 17, 2011, 02:52:46 pm
tuschkahouma please before you spread stories back them up with truth not what you hear
from books and people who are guessing history. For far too long we have had groups tells who
we are and as a historian i can tell right away the story they are saying is false. If you repeat
a story long enough and some writes it down people will believe it.
Not ever tribe that claims to be native should be recoginzed because they have lost that
core culture belief,
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 18, 2011, 05:30:18 am
I stated previously that the ethnic origins of the Mowa as stated on a Wikipedia site that I've seen was bs. If you took the time to read the Elizabeth Rountree book on the Pamunkey, Mattiponi, Nansemond, Rhappahannock, and Chickahominy tribes there was a common practice by white
southerners of forcing remnant Indians to submerge their ancestry and be colored from a legal standpoint or not be recognized at all.
Eric Plecker went around VA marking these tribe's birth certificates as colored from the 1920's to the 1950's as Director of the Virginia
Office of Racial Purity. It took the Federal Draft Board during WW II standing up to state's right advocate Plecker when Pamunkeys
enlisted to stop the colored listing and the assigning of these troops to Black battalions. The same kind of circumstances existed
for both the Mowa Choctaws and Houmas in Alabama and Louisiana prior to Civil Rights Legislation in the 1950's and 1960's.
You don't get the fact that the Mississippi Choctaws also desired to be segregated from the Whites and Blacks in the South.
The Indians wanted Indian Schools. You ignore the fact that Pembroke State University in NC started off as an entirely
Lumbee Indian College in the early 20th century when the Lumbees weren't allowed to go anywhere else legally. I've given
monies to the Bacone Scholarship for Mowa Choctaws and tribes from Virginia and Delaware also get Indian Scholarships
from Bacone. If Bacone acknowledges these people as Indians from non treaty tribes and has done so for six or seven decades
prior to civil rights legislation I'd say their opinion carries more weight than any stubborn person who spends four pages
ignoring repeated statements of fact and holds up a sham BAR finding that even Kevin Gover admited was fraudulent in it's
omission of Mowa evidence contrary to the negative finding that you discuss as having such unimpeachable evidence
showing the Mowas as frauds. You just made me remember how Jack Campisi lamblasted the BIA in the late 1970's
to the point that they went ahead and acknowledged the Gay Head Mashpee Wampanoags even though they started
off giving this tribe as much grief as the Mowas have gotten. The BIA is never wrong you know. They never get blood quantums wrong
and the Dawes Commission never left parts of large enrolling families off the Dawes Rolls. They also didn't make a clerical
error and leave the Samish Tribe off of the BIA Master Roll of recognized tribes from 1968 to like 2005. Imagine having
your tribes recognition done away by a clerical error and loosing your fishing rights by treaty in Puget Sound from 1968
to 2005 simply because someone forgot to type in the name Samish. Start looking at all of the incorrect points of that BAR finding
on the Mowas and stop using the BIA's mistakes as fact. If you did so you'd realize you've been debating from a point of
using mistakes as fact when you started this thread and I've spent like two weeks trying to convince you that the BIA was wrong and yet you don't care.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 18, 2011, 06:26:58 am
none of you referenced the Calcedeaver School for the Mowa Choctaws that the tribe provided for itself did you? 
That school has been around for decades as an Indian School and like the BIA you all conveniently omit it
and call people fakes. It's all about omitting history isn't it?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Superdog on February 18, 2011, 01:27:25 pm
none of you referenced the Calcedeaver School for the Mowa Choctaws that the tribe provided for itself did you? 
That school has been around for decades as an Indian School and like the BIA you all conveniently omit it
and call people fakes. It's all about omitting history isn't it?

I'm not gonna contribute to the conversation other than to say it's comments like this that really destroy your own argument.  I'm one of the many on this board that doesn't have a dog in this fight and I'm reading all of this info with an open mind.  However, words such as this that tend to try and lump us all together into agreement (like we're the Borg from Star Trek or something) and really detract from the substance of what you have to say.

What ends up happening, Tuschkahouma, is I have to wade through these slight board character assassinations to try and find where the facts are in what you post and that can tend to be difficult as your posts are peppered with them and it's hard to distinguish sometimes between what is offered up as facts and what is emotional diatribe. 

Just keep in mind, that you are really only having a conversation with a couple of board members on this topic...the rest of us are following and I happen to find the info you present interesting when you present it.  You'll have a lot more luck staying off the defensive and standing  up by the facts of your arguments and let them stand just as they are.  I can understand your frustration at probably having to have this conversation over and over with people from recognized tribes, but comments such as "Why would Vine Deloria do this or that" and comments like the one quoted above are really words with no substance and don't help you at all.  If you make your case with dignity and don't stoop to that kind of conversation your words will remain here for all to see, and just maybe, you'll have to explain all of this a little less and less in the future and you'll find there are more people believing the facts you present.

Superdog
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Superdog on February 18, 2011, 04:19:05 pm
and personally...I'd like to hear about the Calcedeaver School.  It's history, when it started, how it started etc.  That's very interesting to me.  Can  you tell us some more?

Superdog
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 18, 2011, 08:17:59 pm
tuschkahouma, this thread is specifically about the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indians, and more importantly, it is about specific people.  We are talking about specific families such as the Reeds, Weavers, Rivers, Byrds, etc., etc..   While some of the general information you give may have some relevance in certain cases, such as the case of racial classifications, etc., what you have not yet done, is make the case specifically for the MOWAs ancestors, and give us specific examples that pertain to the Mowa’s ancestors.  Because something is true, and may have happened to one group of Indians, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true for the Mowa’s ancestors.  Furthermore, there are many more problems with the Mowa’s petition besides the racial classifications you mention.  Many of the ancestors that the Mowas claimed as their ancestors were proven not to be their ancestors.   There are numerous other problems with their narrative as has been pointed out here.  Their geographical location was disputed as part of the Six Towns, the stories about being descended from Geronimo, etc., etc., etc.  If you want to refute some of these assertions, then please provide specific examples that make your case.   
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 18, 2011, 10:50:40 pm
tuschkhouma said

Quote
If Bacone acknowledges these people as Indians from non treaty tribes and has done so for six or seven decades prior to civil rights legislation I'd say their opinion carries more weight than any stubborn person who spends four pages ignoring repeated statements of fact and holds up a sham BAR finding that even Kevin Gover admited was fraudulent in it's omission of Mowa evidence contrary to the negative finding that you discuss as having such unimpeachable evidence showing the Mowas as frauds.

What is this evidence contrary to the negative findings? 
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 19, 2011, 04:40:04 am
calcedeaver school was founded in 1949 after Calvert, Cedar Creek, and Weaver Creek, all former missionary schools were consolidated to
become Calcedeaver School. An occurance of meningitis caused issues at one of the previous schools. The tribe asked the missionaries
to leave after they sold school lands to the county. In rhe 1960's the school board tried to force the Mowa students to go to Black schools.
Calcedeaver is now recognized as an Indian school in Mobile County and has an active Indian education program. This is an excerpt from
pages 74 and 75 of They Say the Wind is Red. According to pages 22 and 23, the Rivers and Byrds are descendants of William Weatherford (Creek)
(AKA Red Eagle whom Andrew Jackson persued after Fort Mims massacre) and Nancy Fisher. Their daughter, Cecille. married Saustienne Chastang
and later David Weaver. Twelve children came from these two marriages.  The Weavers and Byrds were Creek and Cherokee refugees from
Georgia after the Creek War during the War of 1812. Some of the Choctaw descendants came from the marriage of William Byrd and Betty
Gibson a daughter of Chief Tom Gibson (Eli Tubbee). Piamingo Hometah was a Choctaw Chief and an ancestor of the Taylors in the Hoe
Buckintoopa treaty area. This info is from the They Say the Wind is Red Book. Much of the info you all are looking for concerning the
recognition issues of the Mowa people is between pages 158 and 169 in that book. Professor Matte wrote the book as a presentation
to the BIA from her research for the Mowas recognition project. It was ignored initially by Kevon Gover as stated in the book. All of the issues of omission by the BIA are in that book. The Okla Hannali District went into southeast MS and Southwest AL. The Okla Falaya
and Okla Tannap Districts were further north near the Pearl River.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 19, 2011, 09:56:50 pm
tuschkahouma said

Quote
All of the issues of omission by the BIA are in that book.

tuschkahouma, can you post some of the main examples of the alledged omissions by the BIA?  ( Since most of us don't have access to the book )
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 19, 2011, 10:27:05 pm
This excerpt is from page 164 of "They say the Wind is Red".

 
The BIA/BAR reviewers conveiniently ignored MOWA ancestors found in the Dawes Applications, Eastern Cherokee applications,
 Alabama Supreme Court cases, Methodist and Baptist missionary records, the 1910 US Census which designated clusters of
Mowa families as Indians and the 1930 US census describing the 3000 Indians around Citronelle in Upper Mobile County and
Lower Washington County. About five months ago I contacted Mrs. Matte about a small cluster of Choctaw Indians still
in Perry County, MS listed on the 1900 US Census with Choctaw names. Perry County borders Alabama and is the home
county of my ancestors white and Indian. As I previously stated about three pages ago in posting the Poarch Creeks
also enrolled on the Eastern Cherokee rolls because all they heard was the words Indian rolls. It was acknowledged
by the BIA for them but not for the Mowas in their application. You all claim that I'm over emotional about this.
The Mowas have been screwed over and all kinds of untruthful allegations have been made with most of them
being innaccurate. On the Lakota Dakota Nakota postings I read the articles and I heard the tones of indignance
there. I have the same tone of indignance here. If some people were saying crazy things about your people, you
wouldn't stand for it. You all have been repeating those untruths until I got on here. Other Choctaws acknowledge
us. Iskulli or money was the reason that Philip Martin had issues with the Mowa. I stated earlier that Alabama Choctaw
remains were found and Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alalbama, and Louisiana Choctaws fed and State were invited to the reburials. Choctaws
don't have the same issues you all do.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 19, 2011, 11:18:00 pm
 Perry County, Mississippi Genealogy and History
Gene Phillips, County Coordinator
Jeff Kemp - State Coordinator
Denise Wells or Ann Geoghegan - Assistant State Coordinators


   
1900 U. S. Census Indian Population
Beat 3, Perry County, Mississippi
June 2, 1900

Name  Birthdate  Age  Tribe of Father  Tribe of Mother 
     
Kit Reed  Oct. 1872  27  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Victoria Reed  May 1872  28  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Cillie Reed  Sept.1889  2   
               
John Hawkins  Apr. 1868  32  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Jane Hawkins  Sept. 1878  21  Choctaw  Choctaw 
         
Bob (Nakneyah) Thomas  May 1865  35  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Delan Thomas  June 1869  30  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Ransom Thomas  Sept. 1884  15   
Berry Thomas  Jan. 1886  14   
Emaline Thomas  May 1891  9   
Sam Thomas  Sept. 1895  5   
Sim Will Thomas  Sept. 1898  1   
               
Charlie (Elonabe) Thomas  Oct. 1864  35  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Mary (Kayo) Thomas  Nov. 1871  28  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Peter Thomas  Aug. 1886  13   
Esau Thomas  May 1888  12   
Risser Thomas  Apr. 1892  8   
Enoch Thomas  Jan. 1898  2   
               
Elijah Thomas  May 1855  45  Choctaw  Choctaw 
         
Willie Taylor  Dec. 1875  24  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Jamie Taylor  Jan. 1864  36  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Alice Taylor  Oct. 1892  7   
Elizabeth Taylor  Oct. 1897  2   
Johnson Taylor  Aug. 1899  9 months   
             
Jacob Thomas  Aug. 1830  70  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Lidia Jeff  Apr. 1888  12  Choctaw  Choctaw 
Henry Taylor  Nov. 1879  20  Choctaw  Chotcaw 
Mollie Taylor  May 1885  15  Choctaw  Choctaw 


Source: 12th U. S. Census on microfilm Reel # 824, Panola (Part II), Pearl River, and Perry Counties, Mississippi. Submitted by Joe McSwain.

This is from my ancestor's home county just across the border from the Mowa Choctaw area in Alabama. Notice the Reeds and Taylors
on this roll
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 26, 2011, 03:46:16 am
Quote
About five months ago I contacted Mrs. Matte about a small cluster of Choctaw Indians still in Perry County, MS listed on the 1900 US Census with Choctaw names

Show us specific examples of these names from the Proposed Findings, and  if these are the same people, show us where and when they claimed to be Indians.  Many of the Mowa’s ancestors claimed Indian (as I pointed out before) because Race laws in Alabama started to become more strictly construed in Alabama.  Show us specific names and match them up with the Proposed Findings.  


Quote
As I previously stated about three pages ago in posting the Poarch Creeks also enrolled on the Eastern Cherokee rolls because all they heard was the words Indian rolls. It was acknowledged by the BIA for them but not for the Mowas in their application.

tuschkahouma, the Poarch Band of Creek Indians can easily prove who they are as Creek Indians, and of having a continuous political connection to the Creek Nation.  Here is the Proposed Finding in favor of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.  They should in no way be compared to the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/index.htm

http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001321.pdf


Quote
The contemporary Poarch Band of Creeks is a successor of the Creek Nation of Alabama prior to its removal to Indian Territory. The Creek Nation has a documented history back to 1540. Ancestors of the Poarch Band of Creeks began as an autonomous town of half-bloods in the late 1700's with a continuing political connection to the Creek Nation. The Poarch Band remained in Alabama after the Creek Removal of the 1830's, and shifted within a small geographic area until it settled permanently near present day Atmore, Alabama.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 26, 2011, 06:11:54 am
Tuschkahouma,


 I have some questions I would ask and a few points I would like to make. I would also like to state that I am entering this discussion from a stand point of neither being for or against recognition of the Mowa Choctaw. I will put my actual questions to you here in italics.

 First of all I think you made a good argument about the "race" of some people being switched on paper by the powers that be so that who they really are might not be traceable now. However even if that is true, it could be possible that this could be the case for countless other people.

So my question here is when do you think a line should be drawn on this matter to say that one group or even individuals should be recognized or not by the federal government based on records that can not prove their claims?

I myself don't necessarily think BIA or US government is necessarily trying to do wrong to those who claim to be Mowa Choctaw, but rather is just basing their decision on the records that are available or that information which can be researched.

 In answering my above question and point of view I am sure you are going to present the argument that the Mowa Choctaw are an actual native community with a long standing existence, even if they can not prove their ties to Choctaw ancestry.

So to that I would like to ask, if what you and the rest of the Mowa's say is true, then why do you really need federal recognition?

Why not just live within your community as a member of that community and be happy and proud to be who you are?

Being Indian is not something that  requires recognition of a colonial power, and so if you are really who you say you are; why do you feel this need to be federally recognized?

 

Rattlebone, Federal Recognition would open up the door to Federal Funding, and that’s a big part of it.  You bring up a good point about their motives to wanting Federal Recognition.  Also, many of their claims are not only not proven, but disproven in many cases.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 27, 2011, 01:56:45 am
You know what's funny about your tone on the legitimacy about the Poarch Creeks?  They couldn't come up with an accurate blood
quantum for their people so they took one of their early base rolls and made people paper fullbloods and required people in this day and age
to be 1/4 Creek to enroll from the doctored rolls. If I remember correctly, they had a couple of rolls between 1870 and 1900. I researched their rolls to deal with tribal rolls over a long period of time with the Munsee or Christian Tribe of Indians in Kansas. They had an 1852 roll with the Kansas Agency, a roll as they left Leavenworth in 1858, a tribal roll in 1859, and 1864-1868 with the Sac and Fox Agency, and rolls between 1891-1900 with the Great Nemaha Agency at Nadeau, Kansas. Yes, the Creeks are recognized, and yes I've been to Atmore, Alabama to their community
back in 2005. I've read the articles concerning other tribes that were political targets like the Schagticoke, Eastern Pequot, and Mowa Choctaw
peoples. They all share something in common...petitions submitted with thousands of pages only to become the victims of political motivation.
VA US Senator Frank Wolf threatened then Head of the Interior Gale Norton who leaned on the BIA Head Aurene Martin to reverse to positive
acknowledgement for the Connecticut tribes and voila, the Pequot and Schagticoke tribes recognition was reversed. Heck, Even ole Haley
Barbour was involved as a law partner whose firm represented Kent, Connecticut against the Schagticokes. Not dirty at all. Philip Martin
went through his Abramov connections and that is why Mr. Sunray confronted him at Norman. You ask for all of this proof with your gotcha tone.
All of this as you're still using an innaccurate BIA finding to assail this tribe with. If you've been to Chulah Homma Road and seen parts
of these Choctaw peoples community AS I HAVE you'd realize like other state tribal communities these people hve been taken advantage of
in the past and are due some justice as other tribes have received. How dare they get justice. I'm not ducking your questions, your questions
are based on innaccuracy to begin with.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 27, 2011, 05:49:09 pm
why you're at it why don't you ask the Poarch Creeks why they built a gaming facility on hallowed Creek ground in Alabama
offending a young Creek stickball player I knew at Haskell and why a career Creek minister whom I knew in Lawrence, KS
who moved back to the Creek Nation in Oklahoma referred to the Poarch Creeks as White People. And since you love going
after victims of the BIA and corrupt politics why don't you go after the Little Shell Chippewa Cree people in Montana
because you know how those Metis people are. They couldn't be Indians with all that French blood. They must certainly
be CAJANS. After all, as Jack Forbes says, it's for "Approved Indians Only". Beat on all the victimized tribes. That's the ticket.
Don't separate the Mowas and the Little Shells from the Moors in Georgia or the Bungard fake Munsees in Ohio, attack all
of them relentlessly. Nittak falaya anumpuli li. Chi akostinincho?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 27, 2011, 11:49:29 pm
 

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Actually, my brother/friend is Mowa Choctaw. The following document may help to provide some background information on what the recognition process has been so far.

Wilford “Longhair” Taylor, Tribal Chief, MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Testimony Before the Committee on Resources
Unites States House of Representatives
Hearing on the Federal recognition and acknowledgment process by the
Bureau of Indian Affairs March 31, 2004

Testimony of Chief Wilford “Longhair” Taylor
Mr. Chairman and committee members: good morning. My name is Wilford “Longhair” Taylor and I am the elected tribal chief of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians. Thank you for granting me the opportunity to testify on the federal recognition and acknowledgment process by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA).

The Choctaw Indians of Mobile and Washington Counties, Alabama (MOWA) are the descendants of American Indians who occupied this territory prior to European discovery. We selected the acronym, MOWA, to represent our modern day geographic location. We live in an area transected by the county line between south Washington and north Mobile Counties. Although the State of Alabama legislature officially recognized the MOWA Choctaw as a tribe in 1979, and an official recognition proposal was approved by a U.S. Senate committee in 1991, the Bureau of Indian Affairs later denied our petition for Federal acknowledgment.

The criteria for Federal acknowledgment which a petitioning group must satisfy were designed to provide a uniform and objective review. However, the immense latitude granted to and demonstrated by the agency in its evaluation of the evidence submitted has clearly yielded arbitrary and subjective decisions. One example is the radically different standards applied in evaluating the petitions of the MOWA Choctaw and the Jena Choctaw. The oral histories of our venerated elders were discounted as "allegations" while the oral histories of the Jena Choctaw were described as even more reliable than written records. Identical types of written documentation that we were required to produce for BIA were characterized as an impossible and unreasonable expectation for the Jena Choctaw. Our petitions were evaluated within just months of each other. In all fairness, the same criteria should have been applied.

The Federal recognition process was designed to take two years, but in reality, the process often places a petitioning group in an endless "loop" of research and expense that, for most tribes, is overwhelming. It took seven years for our initial petition to be processed. It took ten years for the final determination report. If you include the years needed to undertake the research the BIA requires for documentation and our continued fight today, my people are in the twenty-third year of this process.

Although it is obviously not practical for me to present to you today my tribe’s entire struggle with the recognition process, it is spelled out in detail in my written testimony. Therefore, please allow me to share with you just a few comments of independent experts from across the country regarding our failed effort to achieve recognition.

In the words of the well-known and renowned Native American legal scholar and member of the Standing Rock Sioux, Professor Vine Deloria, Jr. writes “The Federal acknowledgment process today is confused, unfair, and riddled with inconsistencies. Much of the confusion is due to the insistence that Indian communities meet strange criteria which, if applied to all Indian nations when they sought to confirm a Federal relationship, would have disqualified the vast majority of presently recognized groups. He further writes, “The MOWA Choctaws have a typical profile for Southeastern Indians. Their credentials are solid and the historical data that identifies them as Indians extends back to the days when they were integral villages in the Choctaw Nation....the fragmentation of the Five Civilized Tribes before, during and after Removal makes their history a fascinating story of persistence and survival but certainly does not eliminate them from the groups of people that should rightfully be recognized as Indians.”
Dr. Richard W. Stoffle, Ph.D., an anthropologist from the University of Arizona wrote to me in response to the BIA decision to deny recognition saying, “I can only express my deepest disappointment in the BIA’s decision. As someone who has reviewed your petition at length and has talked with your elders, there is no just argument against recognizing your status as an American Indian tribe… After working for 27 years with more than 80 American Indian tribes, it is my considered opinion that the MOWA Choctaw people are a persistent tribal society. It is difficult for me to understand how that point could have been missed by the BIA.”
Dr. Kenneth York, Ph.D. and Member of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, after critical review of our evidence writes, “It is my belief as a member of MBCI that members of the MOWA Band are descendants of the Great Choctaw Nation which was disbanded by the U.S. Government during the Indian Removal Period. It is my professional opinion that the MOWA Band has provided documentation regarding the history, culture, and ancestral relationship as well, if not better, as any tribal petition in recent years.”

Dr. Loretta A. Cormier, Ph.D., an anthropologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham recently wrote, “As you are well aware, I have had the opportunity to work among the MOWA Choctaw over the course of the last three years and have researched your cultural history. Let me say unequivocally that I have no doubt that the MOWA Choctaw are an American Indian community. I am astounded by the BIA’s denial of your Federal recognition and find the technical report they prepared to be seriously flawed in terms of its historical, cultural, and even logical analysis of MOWA Choctaw history."

The work and words of these individuals, and many other informed professionals, should provide ample support to prove that the BIA’s recognition process is, flawed and riddled with inconsistencies. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, as a federal governmental agency, has a duty to make decisions on a rational basis, which are neither arbitrary nor capricious. I find it quite disturbing that the BIA can selectively “pick and choose” the evidence it uses to deny a petition and, at the same time, not even consider, or in fact, totally and completely disregard stronger, more solid and compelling evidence that it normally uses as support to acknowledge other tribes.

The federal acknowledgment process was originally designed to be fair, objective and neutral. Today, the process is dehumanizing and insulting. As American Indians, we are the only people in this country who to have to prove to the United States government who we are. I strongly believe that as long as the BIA has the power to serve as judge, advocate or adversary, the issues we discuss today will never be resolved and the recognition process will continue to be widely held in contempt.
Thank you.

Introduction: The Choctaw of Mobile and Washington Counties, Alabama
We, the MOWA Band of Choctaw, are a community comprised of the ancestors of American Indians who escaped the 1830 Indian removal act and remained in our traditional homeland in southwest Alabama. We chose the acronym "MOWA" to refer to our location in the area bordering Mobile and Washington Counties.

Our credentials are solid and the historical data that identifies us as Indians extends back to the days when we were integral villages in the Choctaw Nation. Few people realize that not all people were removed when the Army marched our nation to the West. Our ancestors have been documented as a distinct American Indian community since shortly after the 1830 Indian removal act. In 1835, a government Indian School was built in Mount Vernon, Alabama and described in the Library of Congress Historic Building Survey as built for Indians by Indian labor (Russell 1935 [1835]). Census records, birth certificates, sworn court testimony, government correspondence, military records, and anthropological descriptions provide written documentation of our continuous history in the area. However, the strongest evidence of our American Indian ancestry is not found in written documents, it is found in our lives. Our ancestors passed to us our Indian identity and traditions, persevering and preserving our heritage despite a long history of injustice and persecution.

Our ancestors essentially became fugitives in their own homeland. After the Indian Removal Act of 1830, they retreated into heavily forested, marginally desirable land along the Tombigbee River, married amongst themselves, and maintained a separate community. It is critical to understanding the experience of our ancestors to know that such segregation was not only due to the amalgamation of our Indian ancestors who escaped removal: it was an imposed isolation. Isolation helped to spare our people from persecution, although not completely. Elders describe atrocities against our ancestors such as being hunted down and imprisoned; killed, dismembered and stuffed in a gopher hole; or taken West in periodic Indian round-ups by government-paid contractors. These types of events are well documented in the literature (e.g., Debo 1972 [1934] and Forman 1982 [1932], Matte 2002).
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 27, 2011, 11:53:43 pm
Part 2 

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Non-Indian settlers to the area applied the term "Cajun" to our ancestors' community, a term borrowed from a nickname given to French-Canadian immigrants to the Gulf Coast area originating in Arcadia, which our ancestors clearly were not. We consider the term a pejorative, but nevertheless, this is the term often used to document our community in the literature, including a 1948 Smithsonian Institute description of the Cajun Indians of southwest Alabama (Gilbert 1948:144).

Unfortunately, such erroneous descriptions of our culture have been the rule rather than the exception in our history. The ultimate irony is that the very isolation and persecution contributing to our bonding together as an Indian community have, even today, impeded our ability to receive acknowledgment that we are who we say we are. We were denied federal recognition primarily on the basis that the BAR found insufficient written documentation by outsiders to substantiate the reality of our history and our lives.

The second section of this document entails a critique of the BAR denial of federal recognition for our people. At this juncture, it is important to make the point that we did provide the BAR with substantial documentation of the type that is acceptable to them in these matters. We maintain that we provided clear evidence to them that should have been more than sufficient to prove by their standards that we are who we are.
In brief, the BAR accepts that Indians remained in the area inhabited by the MOWA Choctaw today after the 1830 Removal Act. They also accept that our MOWA Choctaw community demonstrates clear ancestry from late 19th century core ancestors with Indian traditions. The crux of the denial is that our ancestors from the mid to late 19th century who lived as a separate community with Indian traditions cannot provide a level of documentation of Indian ancestry written by the non-Indian peoples who persecuted them that is considered acceptable to the BAR. Logically, it defies reason that non-Indians of that time period would desire to voluntarily adopt Indian traditions that would only invite persecution. Even if such self-destructive individuals were to exist, then one would have to presume that another as of yet unidentified Indian community existed in the MOWA Choctaw area from whom these non-Indians would be able to acquire foreign traditions. This is a bizarre and irrational scenario. Our MOWA Choctaw ancestors had Indian traditions because they were Indian.

Our people are, and have always been, a self-governing community following traditional ways of our ancestors and not accommodating ourselves to the rigid institutional organization that the majority of the nation adopted. Traditional ways, our people rightly feel, are more precise and enable the community to meet the needs of our people whereas the institutional process serves only people who fit into rigidly defined categories of assistance. Thus the political and social profile of our MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians does not always fit into the neat and narrow categories required by the federal acknowledgment process. Although the Alabama legislature officially recognized the MOWA Choctaw as a tribe in 1979, as did a U.S. Senate committee in 1991, the Bureau of Indian Affairs denied our petition. Nevertheless, as our revered elder, Mr. Leon Taylor stated to Congress in 1985,

“Today, I am Choctaw. My mother was Choctaw. My Grandfather was Choctaw. Tomorrow, I will still be Choctaw.”

This abstract and timeline form the basis of the petitions and supporting documents submitted to the Bureau of Indian Affairs-Branch of Acknowledgment and Research in 1988, 1991, and 1996. A more in-depth treatment of the material summarized here can be found in Jacqueline Matte's, They Say the Wind is Red: The Alabama Choctaw--Lost in Their Own Land (2002, New South Books).

Critique of the BAR Technical Report
The following is a summary critique of the BAR Technical Report denying our federal recognition. Our critique addresses four key problem areas we see in their evaluation, 1) dismissal of written documents, 2) arbitrariness in evaluating oral history, 3) failure to appreciate the historical context of the MOWA Choctaw experience, and 4) procedural errors. It should be duly noted that space limitations for this testimony do not allow us to present to the Committee on Resources a complete description of the factual errors, erroneous interpretations, and inconsistencies in the BAR technical report of our people. However, we are fully prepared to present more extensive evidence and inaccuracies of the BAR report and, more extensive documentation demonstrating that we are a legitimate American Indian people.
1. The BAR Discounted Written Documents Presented as Evidence of MOWA Choctaw American Indian Ancestry
a. The Bar Discounted Written Documents of MOWA Choctaw Antebellum Ancestry
We presented extensive written documentation to the BAR of the continuous settlement of our people in the region we inhabit today from 1813 until the present. Included were letters of correspondence to representatives of the U.S. government between 1832 and 1859 which provide a continuous record of our presence for a time period that spans approximately 30 years after the 1830 Indian removal act (Exhibit 1: Choctaw Timeline). In our original petition, we described the segregation of our ancestors from the surrounding community in that they were not permitted to attend either “white” or “black” schools, and built their own. A record of the school exists in the Library of Congress that verifies that the school was built in 1835 “by Indians and for Indians” (Exhibit 2: Original Catalogue Record of Indian School). We presented to the BAR documentation of 120 records in the U.S. General Land Office from 1836 to 1936 of homesteads showing land occupation by the same names listed on the 1910 census who were described as mixed blood Indians (see Exhibit 1 for references for census data and Database of Land Records, 1836-1936). These records demonstrate 100 years of our continued occupation in the area from shortly after the Indian Removal Act until nearly the middle of the 20th century. We also provided the evidence of an 1855 “Census Roll of the Choctaw Indians” which describes Indians living in our present-day area as well as evidence of a “Choctaw Regiment” in Mobile county during the Civil War (see Exhibit 1: references for the Cooper Roll 1855, showing Choctaws in Mobile, Alabama and the 1862 Choctaw Regiment of Mobile, Alabama.)
The evidence above contradicts the conclusion of the BAR which states,
“the petitioner’s attempt to demonstrate the existence of a continuing American Indian tribal entity, or community, in southwestern Alabama in the first half of the nineteenth century was not documented” (Technical Report: MOWA Band of Choctaw 1994:72 [cited hereafter as TR-MOWA]).
Not only did we provide such evidence, it should be duly noted that BIA regulations under which the final determination was made do not require evidence of ancestry prior to 1900. The BAR required a burden of proof in violation of BIA standards and failed to acknowledge documentary evidence that indeed met the inappropriate standard they imposed upon us.
In addition, although the BAR relied most heavily on genealogical historical records, support for the material we presented is found in genetic research published in professional medical journals that characterize our contemporary MOWA Choctaw people as a community of Native American ancestry that have intermarried and been genetically isolated since antebellum times. Our community has been a subject of study by medical geneticists from the University of South Alabama due to the high frequency of Marinesco-Sjorgren syndrome, an extremely rare autosomal recessive genetic disorder. The community of these patients was described as,
“each patient was a member of an inbred population living in a well-defined area of South-Western Alabama. The ancestry of this population is Indian, with White and Black admixture” (Superneau et al. 1987:9).
“all come from a remote, rural area of southwest Alabama that has been virtually isolated since before the civil war” (Brogdon, Snow, and Williams 1996:461-462).
b. The BAR Discounted 1910 U.S. Census Evidence of American Indian Ancestry
The 1910 United States Census for Washington County, Alabama contained marginal notes which identify MOWA Choctaw families in the Fairford and Malcolm precincts of Washington County. The original identification of Indian was written over with the word “mixed.” The interlineations were written by an official taker of the United States Census. The note explains: “These people entered as mixed are composed of Indian, of Spanish, some of them French, some with White, and some with Negro. The prevailing habits are Indian. Called "Cajun” (see Exhibit 1 references to 1910 Census Identifying Indian People and Communities in Washington County).

Despite this direct proof, the BAR concludes, “nor were the core ancestors identified as an Indian entity on the 1910 U.S. Census.” It should also be noted that the core ancestors were dead by the time of the 1910 census, and these would have been descendants of our core ancestors. Moreover, the BAR concluded that “none of the primary records demonstrate that the petitioner’s members descend from a historical tribe or tribes which combined to form an autonomous political entity” (Summary under the Criteria and Evidence for Final determination of the MOWA 1997:5 [cited hereafter as SCFD-MOWA]. We offered the report of Professor Richard Stoffle (1996) entitled, “A Persistent People: A Rapid Ethnographic Assessment of MOWA Choctaw Federal Acknowledgment Petition.” Stoffle, using an anthropological approach, concluded that we were operating as an Indian community at the time of the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek in 1830.

(continued)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 27, 2011, 11:57:58 pm
Rather than respond to the substantive conclusions reached by Stoffle, the BAR suggested that we did not demonstrate that our core ancestors descended from persons listed on the Dawes Rolls. However, when the Curtis Act of 1898 directed the commission to enroll the Mississippi Choctaw (Mann 2003:293), some of our ancestors did make application for enrollment. They were rejected because they had no written documents to verify their Indian identity and were labeled “half-bloods.” Most of the applicants rejected lived in Alabama and traced their descendancy through Lofton and Byrd’s lineage. This information was submitted to the BAR. The basis for the exclusion from the list was not that the applicants were not Choctaw. Indeed they could speak the Choctaw language. No logical reason exists for anyone to speak the Choctaw language in 1898 in Alabama if they were not Choctaw. They were not permitted on the list because they could not supply written documentation and were deemed “half-bloods.” The BAR ignored this information.

In addition to the 1910 census, the 1920 census identified our people as “French and Indian” (see Exhibit 1 reference to the 1920 Census Identifying Indians in Washington County). We have also recently found Birth and Death Certificates from around this time period identifying our people as Indian (see Exhibit 1 references to Birth and Death Certificates Identifying MOWA Choctaw as “Indian”). Moreover, the 2000 U.S. census is unequivocal in its description of our people as Indian. In its “Race List Codes,” the MOWA Choctaw Indians are listed under the category “American Indian,” sub-category “Choctaw,” sub-category “C12-Mowa Band of Choctaw” (Exhibit 4: Federal Agencies Recognizing the MOWA Choctaw, U.S. Department of Commerce). We agree with the contemporary classification of our people as American Indian by the United States Federal government, and so should the BAR.
c. The BAR Discounted Sworn Testimony Related to the American Indian Ancestry of Core MOWA Choctaw Families
The MOWA Choctaws submitted minutes from “The State v. John Goodman and Jenny Reed,” dated 1881-1882 (Washington County, Alabama Circuit Court 1881-1882). We also presented a 1918 miscegenation case, “The State of Alabama v. Percy Reed and Helen Corkins [a.k.a. Calkins]” (See Exhibit 1 reference to 1920 Miscegenation Case of Percy Reed and Helen Caulkins). The BAR ignored direct evidence of Indian ancestry which arose out of these hearings and also intentionally refused to draw inferential conclusions from the trials.
First, we used the minutes from “The State v. John Goodman and Jenny Reed” to support the claim that Rose Gaines was half-Choctaw and half-white. The minutes indicated that Alabama prosecuted John Goodman and Jenny Reed under the miscegenation acts. The BAR concluded that the not-guilty verdict was non-supportive of Choctaw heritage. The BAR discredited sworn testimony of witnesses who stated that Rose was the daughter of Young Gaines and a Choctaw woman. Additionally, the BAR questioned the reference to burned records in our 1988 petition, “Initially, the petitioner claimed that ‘these [1880’s] court records were burned” (FD-MOWA 1997:13). The 1988 petition was based on information available at the time. That the BAR would castigate us for dutifully supplementing its submission is inconceivable, unprofessional, and insulting. We did not know that the records existed because we were told in 1988 that some of the courthouse records had burned in 1907. However, some of the records had been moved and were later found in a storage closet in Chatom, Alabama.
At the trial involving John Goodman and Jenny Reed, testimony was offered that Jenny was American Indian. The BAR ignored this testimony, which was provided in prior submissions to the BAR. They took issue with the fact that Mr. Sullivan, the foreman of the jury, had testified similarly in the 1920’s. However, that does not discredit the testimony, rather it supports the conclusion of Indian descendancy. The fact that the jury found the defendants not guilty in the Goodman and Reed case is strong proof that Jenny Reed was of Native American rather than African descent. This is the only defense that would have worked in the jury trial. The BAR completely and literally ignored this conclusion.

In addition, the specific reasons outlined by the BAR for not accepting this conclusion are specious. First, the BAR says that the testimony was given at a time greatly removed from the events being discussed. The BAR is acting as a super-jury in determining the Reed and Goodman case again. The original jury, hearing the evidence and seeing the witnesses, concluded that the defendants were not guilty of miscegenation. The only reasonable conclusion for that verdict can be that Jenny Reed was Native American. The credibility and weight accorded to witnesses’ testimony is to be decided by the jury in that case and not decided by a reviewing agency some 115 years after the court hearing. The BAR does not, and should not, sit as a super-reviewing agency of previous court decisions. Finally, the BAR impugns the testimony of George Sullivan because he was 74 years old. Again, this is a matter which was weighed and determined by the jury hearing that case. The BAR does not have legitimate basis for declining to believe sworn testimony evaluated by a jury.

We also presented the 1918 case of “Alabama v. Percy Reed and Helen Corkins [Calkins].” Percy was the son of Reuben Reed and the grandson of Daniel and Rose Reed. Percy Reed was originally found guilty of miscegenation; however, the Alabama Court of Appeals reversed that verdict and concluded that the evidence presented at the trial was hearsay and that the trial Judge should have directed a verdict in favor of the defendants. The Court of Appeals concluded: “Judgment entry that court ascertained ‘that defendant is of Indian or Spanish origin” significant that state failed to make a case of miscegenation (State of Alabama 1918),” the BAR did not accord this judicial conclusion any weight at all. In fact, the BAR ignored this direct evidence of Native American descent.
2. The BAR Demonstrated Bias, Arbitrariness, and Inconsistency in Evaluating MOWA Choctaw Oral History
Recording of oral histories is a key research methodology for both historians and anthropologists. It is also the traditional Native American means of transmitting family history and cultural traditions from generation to generation. Glaring problems exist in the BAR evaluation of information from oral history we provided to them. The BAR is inconsistent and arbitrary in its utilization of oral history information as evidence of Native American ancestry. Oral history information substantiating written documents is dismissed. The BAR reviewed the petitions of the MOWA Band of Choctaw and the Jena Band of Choctaw within several months of each other. However, similar types of oral history information were deemed superior to written documents for the Jena Choctaw, but judged as inadequate evidence for the MOWA Choctaw. Second, the requirement for extensive antebellum documentation of genealogy is an unreasonable expectation for a non-literate people whose cultural norms are based on preserving cultural heritage through oral tradition.
a. The BAR Discounted Oral History Information Substantiating Written Documents.

The BAR has completely dismissed our oral history as “vague and unreliable when tested.” The BAR refused to accept oral history “until verified from contemporary documentary sources.” As demonstrated with Nancy Fisher, contemporary documentary sources have been provided that have, for reasons beyond being described as frivolous, been discounted. The BAR concludes that oral traditions cannot be accepted at face value and must be evaluated where there are accuracy and reliability. The BAR refers to Rubicam, “consider and analyze all of the facts, regardless of the source, whether tradition or an official record, then decide if you should accept or reject those facts” (Rubicam 1980:48).

(continued)
__________________

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 12:01:28 am
The BAR has ignored its own advice and refused to consider and analyze all of the facts. We have urged, on more than one occasion, that the strong common thread of references to Indian heritage, the 180 year-old story of our Indian ancestor who swam the river with the baby on her back and self-identification has to be given weight. Further support for the veracity of our oral tradition has been found in an 1816 Washington, D.C. newspaper which recounts the incident (Marschalk 1816). A transcript of the newspaper account is provided in Exhibit 3.

Jacqueline Matte has served as the primary historical researcher for our people. Over a twenty-year period, she collected every reference, published or unpublished, related to our ancestors. Each piece of this information has been sent to the BAR, some of it repeatedly, in the anticipation that gaps in chronology, incomplete documentation, and unanswered questions could be expected for a non-literate people. Those gaps, however, were used offensively by the BAR to deny recognition rather than to leave open the analysis for further consideration.
While we do not discredit the value of genealogical records, the BAR has not taken into account that our earliest ancestors were not literate in English. It is unreasonable to expect that they would have kept extensive genealogical records of themselves in a language they did not know. Vine Deloria, Jr. (Lakota Sioux, Professor Emeritus at the University of Colorado) has commented on this very problem in the federal recognition process, and specifically in reference to the MOWA Choctaw stating,
“Much of the confusion is due to the insistence that Indian communities meet criteria which, if it had been applied in the past, would have disqualified the vast majority of presently recognized groups” (Deloria 2002:10).
He refers to the “catch-22” in the federal recognition process. If our ancestors had assimilated, they would have been more likely to have left the types of written documentation the BAR requires to demonstrate Indian ancestry. However, such assimilation, by the BAR rules, would disqualify a community as a legitimate Indian tribe.
A recently discovered 1960 letter written by U.S. Representative Frank Boykin also demonstrates the veracity of our oral history. An excerpt follows below:
I’ll take care of him when he gets here, because we have a lot of wild Indians. You will remember that Aaron Burr was captured there on our game preserve at McIntosh in 1806; and then a little later, chief Geronimo, that great fighting chief, was captured here. Well, we sent them all to Oklahoma, after having them in captivity here a long time. Well, I still have a lot of them and they work for us. They can see in the dark and they can trail a wounded deer better than some of our trail dogs (Boykin 1960).
Boykin’s description of the MOWA Choctaw is that they are descendants of Indians who escaped removal and remained in the area that we currently inhabit. Although Boykin’s use of the term “wild Indian” is insulting, it is, nevertheless, an indisputable description of us as an Indian community.

b. The BAR Applied Radically Different Standards in Evaluating the MOWA Choctaw and the Petitions of Other Tribes, Particularly in Terms of Oral History
The BAR has applied radically different standards in evaluating the petitions of the MOWA Band of Choctaw and other tribes. We have chosen to draw comparisons between the petition of the Jena Band of Choctaw with our own since they were evaluated within months of each other and both are Southeastern Indian groups with Choctaw ancestry. The BAR applied a higher standard for the MOWA Choctaw than the Jena, in some cases, requiring the MOWAs to provide information that was described as impossible to obtain for the Jena. They were particularly inconsistent in evaluating the oral history of these two groups. Similar types of information derived from oral history were accepted for the Jena and rejected for the MOWA Choctaw. In one instance where a discrepancy between oral history and census data existed for the Jena Choctaw, oral history was deemed more reliable. However, the exact opposite conclusion was drawn for the MOWA Choctaw for similar circumstances. We should be clear that we are in no way questioning the legitimate Indian status of the Jena band of Choctaw. Rather, we are making the point that we feel that in all fairness, the same standards should have been used in evaluating our petitions.
One example of this type of discrepancy in the BAR’s evaluation of the MOWA Choctaw and Jena Choctaw petitions involves the importance of oral history in establishing ancestral links. For the Jena, the BAR recognized that their earliest Choctaw ancestors would have logically had Choctaw rather than Anglicized names and established a linkage between 1830 Choctaw based on the oral history of their 1880 descendants among the Jena. The following citation from the Jena petition is lengthy, but important for it makes clear that the federal government acknowledged the impossibility of linking Choctaw names to anglicized names and further, argued that it was “fair and reasonable to assume” that 1880 persons living in traditional Choctaw territory who claimed descent from Choctaw ancestors through oral history, were, indeed, Choctaw:
After one commissioner visited Mississippi for several weeks, the Dawes Commission produced a roll of the Mississippi Choctaws and submitted it to the Department of the Interior in March 1899. Later in the year, however, the Commission asked that the roll be withdrawn and returned it. The roll contained 1,923 names (Dawes Commission 1899, 78; 1900, 18, 10; Commissioner of Indian Affairs 1899, 122; 1901, 157-158). The Commission had identified a Mississippi Choctaws all of the full-blood Choctaws who had appeared before it. The Commission noted that it was impossible to prove that an individual’s Choctaw ancestors had made a good-faith effort to comply with the provisions of Article 14 of the treaty after 1830. The facts were not known to those living 60 years later, the Choctaws with English names could not be traced back to ancestors with Indian names, the Government’s records were inadequate, and the investigations made after the treaty had demonstrated that Agent William Ward had refused to register Choctaws who sought to comply with the treaty’s terms. The Mississippi Choctaws, the treaty contended could not be reasonably expected to show that their ancestors had complied with the provisions of the treaty. It was “fair and reasonable to assume,” however, that the Choctaws who had remained in Mississippi had intended to declare their intention to do so and to use the treaty to assure themselves of a homestead ([Dawes Commission 1899, 78-79] from TR-Jena 1994:21). (Emphasis added).
We provided the BAR with similar documentation in the form of an 1851 petition signed by our Choctaw ancestors that was submitted to the Commissions of Indian Affairs on our behalf by John Seawell (mayor of Mobile) and Felix Andry (See Exhibit 1 references to Indians of South Alabama of the Choctaw Nation 1851 and Choctaws in Mobile). The BAR rejected this evidence on the grounds that 1851 Choctaw names could not be linked to Anglicized names, although this was described as an unreasonable and even “impossible” expectation for the Jena Band of Choctaw:

Evidence was presented by the petitioner to indicate that some Choctaw Indians remained in Southern Alabama between the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek in 1830 and the Civil War. However, no evidence was presented by the petitioner to indicate that either the Reed or the Weaver/Rivers/Byrd family associated as colleagues or witnesses with Felix Andry, who was married to a Choctaw woman named Nancy and who submitted claims to the Federal government on behalf of the Choctaw remaining in Alabama (TR-MOWA 1994:5).
It should be noted that one of the progenitors of the MOWA Choctaw described in our petition to the BAR has been traced to a person with an Anglicized name, Chief Tom Gibson (a.k.a. Eli-Tubbee, Elah, Tubbee, or Elatatabe). He lived in Washington County, Mississippi Territory (presently Washington County, Alabama) until 1813 when the influx of whites caused him to move to Killistamaha (English Town) clan of the Six Towns located in southeastern corner of the present boundary of the state of Mississippi, just miles from the current southwest Alabama location of our MOWA Choctaw community. John Gibson, James Gibson, and Betsy Gibson were in Mobile area in 1850 as shown in U.S. government correspondence and 1880 census. However, the BAR discounted this information because the 1860 census described her probable place of birth as Georgia, her father’s North Carolina, and her mother’s Virginia (TR-MOWA 1994:75-76). The BAR concluded that the link is “based on oral tradition only” (TR-MOWA 1994:75) rather than acknowledging that the census information itself was ambiguous.

(continued)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 12:08:37 am
The conclusion drawn here is particularly troubling given that when the Jena proposal contained ambiguous census date, oral history was described as more reliable than census data,
“The Dawes Commission testimony suggests that tribal members born before 1872 were born in Mississippi, while those who were younger than that were born in Louisiana during the 1880’s. Census data on individuals’ place of birth does not support this conclusion, but the census is less reliable than personal testimony” (TR-Jena 1994:16).
In multiple instances, the BAR discounts our oral history as legitimate evidence. In the first example below, it is belittled by stating that our petition “alleges” a family connection. In the second example, even sworn court testimony is treated as allegation and discounted because we were expected to produce additional written documents to support the testimony.
“The MOWA petition alleges, also on the basis of oral tradition, that a George W. Reed, supposedly the son of Hardy Reed and a Creek woman whose maiden name was Elizabeth Tarvin, was the brother of Daniel Reed, as were Amos Reed and Squire Reed, but provides no documentation for the assertion, and the BAR researchers located none” (TR-MOWA 1994:31).
“According to the witness in the 1920 trial, Mrs. Rush testified that Rose Reed, who had died in 1878, had told her that her mother was a “Choctaw squaw.” This hearsay testimony was not documented by any contemporary evidence” (TR-MOWA 1994:6).
The oral history of the Jena is treated with more respect and regarded as legitimate in terms of both historical dates and social relationships,
“In the oral history of group members, William Bill Lewis is remembered as the group’s leader from the time of his arrival from Catahoula Parish about 1917 until his death about 1933…as the eldest male among the Choctaw residents of the Jena area after the death of Bill Lewis, Will Jackson was expected to play the role of community leader…”(TR-Jena 1994:30).

Another example of information that was accepted for the Jena Choctaw and rejected for the MOWA Choctaw is the presence of Indian Schools. The Jena Choctaw petition states,
“Local authorities and private individuals made efforts to create a school specifically for the Indian population. During the 1930’s the Penick Indian School operated with some funding from the Federal Office of Indian Affairs” (SUC-Jena 1994:4).
We provided the BAR with virtually identical information about a separate, federally funded Indian school for the MOWA Choctaw. In our original petition, we provided evidence of federal funding being sought in 1934, the same time period identified for the Penick Indian School of the Jena Choctaw (see timeline). Moreover, as previously described, the Indian school for the MOWA Choctaw ancestors was established 100 years earlier than that of the Jena Choctaw. In addition, since 1965, we have received federal funding through the Title IV and Title IX Indian Education Programs (Exhibit 4: Federal Agencies Recognizing the MOWA Choctaw, Department of Education).
Another extraordinary example of the BAR applying wholly different criteria to the Jena Choctaw and the MOWA Choctaw is in their evaluation of virtually identical events involving a Choctaw family moving into the community around 1900. For the Jena Choctaw, the addition of the Choctaw Lewis family in the early 1900’s is described as a positive event which allowed a dwindling Jena Choctaw community to remain viable. For the MOWA, the addition of the Choctaw Laurendine family is described as irrelevant because they did not marry into the community until the early 1900’s. The BAR description of the Lewises states,
“Before the arrival in LaSalle Parish about 1917 of William Bill Lewis and his extended family from Catahoula Parish, the Trout Creek settlement may have shrunk to two families, those of brothers Will Jackson and Chris Jackson….At that time, the two Jackson families may have consisted of only eight people…The arrival of the Lewis family gave the Trout Creek settlement the potential to remain a viable community” (TR-Jena 1994:28).
But the description of the MOWA Choctaw states,
“The Mississippi Choctaw Laurendine family did not, apparently settle in Mobile County until after the Civil War….No Laurendine descendants married into the petitioning group until after 1900…”(TR-MOWA:87).
The inconsistency is incredible. The BAR completely dismisses the intermarriage of the Choctaw Laurendine family into the ancestral MOWA Choctaw community as anomalous because it did not occur until around 1900. However, for the Jena Choctaw, the intermarriage of the Choctaw Lewis family around 1900 is viewed as critical to the very existence of the Jena Choctaw today.
c. The BAR Placed little value on oral history as the traditional American Indian means of transmitting heritage.
Finally, it is disappointing that the BAR, as an Indian agency, places so little value on oral history. For all American Indians, oral history is the traditional Indian way of transmitting our heritage from generation. Disregarding these traditions demonstrates disrespect for our venerated elders and more generally, disrespect for Indian cultural traditions. Moreover, the very existence of our oral history, passed down through generations to multiple descendants could not be been motivated by any other logical reason except as a means to preserve our heritage. Cedric Sunray’s “MOWA Tribal Council Presentation” put it well,

“When elder after elder recounts the same story in a relatively similar fashion…how can we discount it? How could an entire group of elderly people be convinced to lie and falsify such a long story? They would need to go against their own collective beliefs, have meetings to get their stories ‘on the same page’ and then, with a straight face, lie to anthropologists and BAR officials. No one could possibly believe that the senior population of the MOWA community organized to this level with the intent to mislead the BAR” (Sunray 2002:15).
3. The BAR failed to evaluate written documentation in its historical context
a. The BAR failed to recognize the widespread American Indian resistance to the Dawes Roll. The BAR equates the Dawes Roll (and similar registers) as a Native American census, failing to recognize both the widespread Native American Resistance to the Dawes Act, and the fraud and corruption in the Miriam Report of 1928 which led to its repeal.
b. The BAR failed to recognize racism and racial designations applied to American Indians in Alabama. The BAR has characterized the documents identifying MOWA Choctaw ancestors with Indian heritage as ambiguous. We have presented clear documentation that our MOWA Choctaw ancestors were described as Indian. However, the BAR describes this evidence as ambiguous pointing to terms such as “free person of color” and “mulatto” that have sometimes been applied to them. Such an attitude demonstrates a lack of awareness of not only historical racial categories in the region, but more importantly, it indicates a lack of awareness of the racism and prejudice that our people have experienced.
c. The BAR applied an unreasonable standard for the level of documentation required for non-literate antebellum American Indians. The requirement of the BAR for the MOWA to present extensive antebellum evidence is an unreasonable standard for an American Indian people who were not literate in the language. Applying such a standard indicates a clear failure to appreciate the cultural, historical, and linguistic history of the Indians who escaped removal in 1830.
4. The BAR deviated from BIA protocol in evaluating the MOWA Choctaw Petition.
a. By the BIA’s own admission, the Federal Recognition process is a confusing, ambiguous, expensive, and time-consuming process (Bureau of Indian Affairs 2001:3-4). One consequence of the confusion and delays is that we presented our petition under the set of guidelines in effect at the time but our petition was not evaluated until seven years later. The rules for federal recognition were changed just months before the BAR evaluated our proposal. We believe our petition should have been evaluated in a timely manner. Further, given that the BAR did not evaluate our petition within the recommended two-year time frame, that our petition should have at least been evaluated under the guidelines in effect when we submitted our proposal.
b. The BAR deviated from BIA protocol in requiring pre-1900 documentation. Much of the criticism in the 1994 BAR Technical Report is directed at their evaluation of our providing insufficient antebellum documentation of our ancestry. As we have already argued, we strongly disagree with this conclusion. But leaving that aside, as a matter of procedure, the requirement for antebellum documentation deviates from protocol. By the BIA’s own admission, the meaning of “historical” has been ambiguous and inconsistently applied for tribes seeking federal recognition. The BIA clarified the time frame in 1997 to mean “since 1900.” However, in the Final Determination, written after the BIA clarified the appropriate time frame, the BAR continued to apply an antebellum standard. We find it particularly unfair, frustrating, and inconsistent that the BAR applied outdated standards in the Final Determination given that our original petition was required to meet standards that had been changed only months before.

(continued)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 12:12:53 am
c. The BAR deviated from the BIA protocol in failing to provide an objective evaluation of the MOWA Choctaw petition. The BAR failed to provide an objective analysis of our petition. We base this on (1) the adversarial tone of the BAR report; (2) evidence of racial bias by the BAR evaluator; (3) politics. Our experience has made it clear that the federal recognition process is rife with politics and bias. We were not evaluated objectively. Kevin Gover, the Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs who signed off on the negative determination of our petitin perhaps puts it better than we can. He is quoted in the Hartford Advocate as saying,

“The tribal recognition process should be ‘fair, open, objective, and neutral…our present system lacks these features and we need an impartial commission’…Today the tribal recognition process is ‘dehumanizing’ and ‘insulting’…”imagine have to prove to the government who you are.” (Miksch 2003, quoting Gover).

Concluding Remarks:
With the exception of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, virtually everyone who has come into contact with our people recognizes that we are Indian. We have multiple letters of support from professionals that are all willing to provide expert testimony under oath. As previously described, we already have established relationships with numerous branches of the federal government who recognize us as Indian, even to the extent of our being given an Indian racial code for the purpose of compiling governmental statistical data. But more importantly that all of the letters and government documents that repeatedly substantiate our American Indian heritage, we simply are who we are.
Wilford “Longhair” Taylor, Tribal Chief,
MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 12:21:13 am
you wanted it, you got it, and what's funny here is that this information was on the internet on powwows.com tied to the H.R. Bill
3526 to recognize the Mowa Choctaws. I pasted it and you could've done the same if you weren't ready to do more assailing and
less research.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 28, 2011, 01:30:12 am
Over 88% percent of the members of the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians at the time of their BIA Proposed Findings were proven to be direct descendants of Indians identified as full blood Choctaws by the Dawes Commission.  As far as the other 12%, a wide breadth of sources of research was collected to determine Indian descent that was not limited to censuses.   Here is the Proposed Findings in Favor of Acknowledgement for the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians dated 9-27-1994.

Proposed Findings in Favor of Federal Acknowledgement for the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001446.pdf

Quote
One hundred percent of the 1993 membership descends from the individuals who were identified as Choctaw on the Federal census in 1900 and 1910 or as Indian on the 1880 and 1920 Federal census in LaSalle or Catahoula Parish, Louisiana.  Over 88% of the 1993 membership descends from someone identified by the US Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes (Dawes Commission) in 1903 as full blood Choctaw. Based on evidence submitted by the petitioner and uncovered during the research process, it is clear that the membership of the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians descends from the Choctaw who settled in Catahoula Parish, Louisiana, before 1880.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on February 28, 2011, 02:18:15 am
hi,

please forgive my ignorance as i am not knowledgeable and am learning
as i read and trying to digest the issue.. so, my question may be really stupid..
but since i don't know i thought i'd ask it anyway..

tuschkahouma posted:
Our ancestors have been documented as a distinct American Indian community since shortly after the 1830 Indian removal act.

my question is.. does this mean they have been a community only since then?
and does that then mean that their community was self made at that time, and
not a tribal community prior to?

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 05:23:00 am
firstly, critter, outside of indian agents, explorers, and invaders like Andrew Jackson excedera, many of these tribes didn't have written
history. Remember, Sequoyah, or George Gist's Cherokee syllabry only came into use in the 1820's. Cyrus Byington translated many religious
documents into my language and created a dictionary that the Oklahoma Choctaws used to sell. So outside of agency, military, or religious
documentation, there wasn't much of any written documentation for SE tribes. Tribes in the southeast were in situ in their tribal domains
until the period between 1805 and 1830. Basically the time between the LA Purchase, the War of 1812, and the Indian Removal Act of 1830.
That year 1830 is marked in my historical sense as the time for SE tribes equivilent to the 1930's for Jewish people as the Nazis were
making it more and more apparent what their motives were. Yes they existed in that area prior to 1830. They were forced to move around
as their territory was part of Spanish West Florida and had much invading by all of the European powers as witnessed by the many historical
flags flown at a museum in downtown Mobile, Alabama, which is named after the Mushkeogan speaking Mabilian peoples who were almost
wiped out in battle with Hernando De Soto's soldiers and whose survivors are amongst the Mowa people. My late mom lived in Pensacola
Florida which was named after the Panch Falaya or Long Hair people and also there is a Choctawhatchee River in the western part of
the FL Panhandle. Many related peoples like the Pensacolas, Pascagoulas, and Apalachees crossed Mobile and went to LA after the French
defeat in the French and Indian War of 1755-1763. They went to the areas between Marksville, Alexandria, and Natchitoches, LA, which
leads me to the Jena Band Of Choctaws.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 05:43:36 am
Choctaws had been coming into LA to hunt. There were still Buffalo in LA in the early 1700's on the prairie between Lake Charles and Lafayette.
Choctaws hunted central and northern LA into Ark until they had issues with the Osage who in turn had issues with anyone entering their
domain. Choctaws named the Ouachita River from the words "Oua" and "Chito" which means big hunt. I lived as a child from 1975 to 1976
in Jonesville, LA, to the east of Jena. I went to Jena as a child. The Spanish authorities who granted the Tunica lands in 1778 also
invited Choctaws in as a buffer against the Americans. Choctaws had historically been around Abita Springs, Hammond, and the boot
of LA. The Bayou Lacombe Choctaws are in this area. I went to grade school in Jonesville with Cajun Choctaw kids with last names
like Sanson, Book and Chevalier. The Jenas were people from Catehoula and Monroe that stayed behind. It is a lot easier to deal with documentation on a tribe of nearly 300 people 13 years ago than a tribe of the Mowas size. I work with Christian Munsees that have had paper history since the Moravians converted them in PA and Ohio between the 1750's and 1770's. I do tribal roll research and you're giving me a hard time about the Mowas. The Mowas like my ancestors were screwed out of paper documentation by William Ward an agent who harrassed
the remaining Choctaws out of scrip lands promised in article 14 of the Dancing Rabbit Creek Treaty of 1830. Gulf Coast Indians were
screwed over by the BIA. I know a Farve descendant who was lucky to be enrolled on the MS COAST as 1/2 Choctaw while other
relatives were left off the rolls in the late 1930's and early 1940's who were 3/4 Choctaw. Maybe if the Mowas would've gone to
LA after the French and Indian War we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on February 28, 2011, 05:52:22 am

Dr. Kenneth York, Ph.D. and Member of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, after critical review of our evidence writes, “It is my belief as a member of MBCI that members of the MOWA Band are descendants of the Great Choctaw Nation which was disbanded by the U.S. Government during the Indian Removal Period. It is my professional opinion that the MOWA Band has provided documentation regarding the history, culture, and ancestral relationship as well, if not better, as any tribal petition in recent years.”


refute this while you're at it.......
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on February 28, 2011, 03:08:18 pm
I'm still not buying it tuschkahouma. I don't believe there is any grand conspiracy by the BIA or any government boogie man. You talk endlessly about history but never provide any solid facts. And all the history you do provide is from over 200 years ago, no real solid history as of recent.

I cannot discount the BIA going through over 3400 GENEALOGIES!!! It took them over 10 years to do this and not one person had any Indian blood, not even a drop! They only found 40 people with some minuscule Indian blood and it wasn't even Choctow. How do you explain that.


Lim lemtsh,


Diana
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on February 28, 2011, 05:45:34 pm
tushkahouma said
Quote
firstly, critter, outside of indian agents, explorers, and invaders like Andrew Jackson excedera, many of these tribes didn't have written history. Remember, Sequoyah, or George Gist's Cherokee syllabry only came into use in the 1820's.


Quote
So outside of agency, military, or religious documentation, there wasn't much of any written documentation for SE tribes.

Critter, all the evidence shows that the overwhelming majority of the Mowa’s ancestors are not descended from Indians. 

What relevance is it that before European contact and shortly after, many Tribes may not have had written history?  THERE ARE WRITEN RECORDS for the Mowa Choctaw’s ancestors in the 19th and 20th century (the time frame we are discussing here). 

 tuchkahouma, the Cherokees are extremely well documented.   Their names start to appear in records in the early 1700’s.  In one of your previous posts you also mentioned something about people of Cherokee descent in Alabama.  I’d like to also add that most of these claims to Cherokee heritage in Alabama based on oral stories are bogus.  Of all the people that claim Cherokee heritage in Alabama, all the evidence shows that only a ridiculously small percentage of these claims turn out to be factual.  Also, in regards to all those rejected as Cherokee/Choctaw, etc. Tribal members, under the Dawes Commission, the majority of these Rejected applications were filed by Whites and other non-Indians who wanted allotments and monetary payouts.  Many of these people’s descendants mistakenly believe they are descended from Indians.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 01, 2011, 04:39:40 am
fyi, I'm a Byrd Cherokee descendant of English/Cherokee ancestry through Brelands and Turners originally from Bertie County, NC, in the 1750's.
They stopped in Alabama for a time right before 1800 and had to get permission from the Creek Nation to pass through Alabama. I have
Turner ancestors buried in Washington County, Alabama across the border from Greene and Perry County, Mississippi. I'm noticing
a pattern here. Every time you've upped the ante whether it was validation from the Mississippi Band of Choctaws or showing
you the problems that the Mowas had with the BIA, you've been turned back. From the people I've listened to on here, outside of your
own respective tribes, you really don't know and you're extremely skeptical. I grew up between Coshocton and Newcomerstown, OH,
in 18th century Lenape Country. I was taught words like Muskingum, Tuscarawas, and Walhonding at three years of age.
We lived in Seneca-Cayuga and Wyandotte Country in Elyria, OH. We then moved to Taensa, Choctaw, Ouachita, and Natchez
country in Jonesville, LA, near Jena, LA when I was five and six. We then moved to Moss Bluff, LA, the home of the Attakapa,
Coushatta, and Redbones. From there we moved to Shreveport, LA, the former home of the Caddo Nation. I learned words
like Calcasieu, Catehoula, Atchafalaya, Natchitoches, and Tangipahoa, in LA as a child and Chickasawhay and Tchoufaboufas
in MS going to my grandparents. I learned something indigenous wherever I lived. I'm spent fifteen years educating myself
through tribal geography, ethnology, and linguistics, and later Indian law and the Choctaw language. None of what I know
was taught in my school or college years. I know what I'm talking about. I've spoken at Haskell about the Kansas Munsees
and Miami Tribe of Indiana in classes on Contemporary Issues and federal recognition. I have over 20 books on the MS, AL,
LA, and Okla Chahta people in my 300 book collection of ethnologies, law, civil rights, religion, and linguistics, of indigenous
peoples. I started off in 1994 memorizing tribes and can now name over 525 tribes off of the top of my head. Furthermore....
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 01, 2011, 05:20:53 am
who documented the names of the Cherokees? agents and religious figures like the Moravian missionary David Branierd who worked with the Tsaligi
in the 1730's before David Ziesberger and John Heckewelder worked with the Munsees in the 1740's and 1750's in PA whose descendants I work
with. It's sure easy to argue when you ignore bits of statements to be redundant. Who did I say documented SE tribes, agents and missionaries.
It's possible for a number of people to descend from a small original group especially with the large families in the southeast. My German, Choctaw
and Biloxi Great Grandmother had eleven children including my grandfather. The Munsees I work with descend from the two children of a
surviving daughter of a Munsee man named Israel Welapatcheshen murdered by settlers at Gnadenhutten Ohio on March 6, 1782.
It is entirely possible that over 3000 Mowas descend from a small group of 19th century Choctaws and Creeks. The Munsees
I work with were last federally enumerated as termination occured in December 1900 with less than 85 members. There are
at least 1300 members with proveable lineages regardless of BQ through eight original Munsee family names currently. If you want to put
your money behind the validity of the BIA look at the misleading hatchet job they just did on the Brothertown Nation of Wisconsin
last year. I know a Munsee elder in Pomona, KS, whos part Brothertown and through that lineage she is a Narragansett and Montauk
descendant. Her Montauk Fowler ancestors come from the Wyandanch lineage and met the Dutch when they stole that land for $24
in the early 1600's. The BIA mislead the Brothertowns and told them in 1993 that they could go through the FAP even though
they accepted citizenship and termination in the early 1840's and still went to BIA boarding schools in the 20th century.
The BIA recently told them after 18 years of work that their petition had holes in it and they weren't allowed to go through the FAP
because of the 1843 termination act for that tribe . Who was asleep at the wheel in the BIA at the same time for the Mowas
Indiana Miamis, and Brothertown Indians?  can any of you skeptical supposedly knowing people explain this?  I didn't think so.
Either come up with some other arguement not based on an incomplete and omitting BIA finding or quit making up stuff to attack
the Mowas or any of the other ten or so legitimate tribes done wrong by the BIA in the last two decades.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 01, 2011, 06:29:28 am
the ten tribes I'm referring to are

Indiana Miami tribe in Peru Indiana
Schagticoke Nation near Kent Connecticut
Chinook Nation in Oregon
Duwamish Tribe in Washington State
Hassaminico Nipmuc Tribe of Massachusetts
United Houma Nation of LA
Paucatauk Pequot tribe of Connecticut
Ramapough Nation of NJ
Brothertown Indian Nation of Wisconsin
Mowa Band of Choctaw Indians in Alabama
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on March 01, 2011, 07:06:40 pm
Yup he confused me too ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
no current history of who they are and no evidence,
the old belief well: Native did not have writted language,
we had a form of writing in which we kept our histories, we have
winter counts and Chippewa have birch bake scrolls and other had
wampam beads.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on March 01, 2011, 08:31:15 pm
There was no proof whatsoever of Cherokee ancestry for any of the Mowa’s ancestors.  The Dawes Rolls and the Guion Miller Rolls are just two of numerous Rolls and censuses that documented the Cherokee people.  If someone claims Cherokee heritage and isn't able to prove it with some sort of solid evidence , the odds are overwhelmingly against their claims to Cherokee heritage.  As we see in the case of the Mowa's, some of their ancestors applied as Cherokees to the Guion Miller Roll of Eastern Cherokee, in order to obtain monetary payouts.  

Quote
Although individual MBC ancestors submitted applications for the Guion Miller Roll of Eastern Cherokees, and the 1972 Creek claims, these applications were rejected on the grounds that the applicants had not demonstrated any Cherokee ancestry or any Creek ancestry. Rejected applications do not provide evidence of Indian ancestry, although the applications themselves may be used as one set of clues to look for documentation of the asserted ancestry.

Quote
The petitioner claimed Indian ancestry (Creek on the paternal side and Cherokee on the maternal side) for Cecile Weatherford, wife of David Weaver. The claim could not be verified.  It was made on the basis of her family's oral tradition, which was stated on applications made to Guion Miller in 1908 for distribution of Eastern Cherokee Funds. The statements made in 1908 pertained to a woman who died in or before 1850. No confirming documentation dating to her lifetime was submitted by the petitioner or located by BIA staff researchers. The Weaver descendants' applications for distribution of Eastern Cherokee Funds were rejected by the Miller Comission on the grounds that they had not demonstrated Eastern Cherokee ancestry.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on March 01, 2011, 10:46:57 pm
@tusckahouma, do you have ANY SELF AWARENESS? You sound like a crazy person. I don't care to hear your family history from 300 yrs ago. You still haven't provided any proof that the Mowas are actual Indians. They failed almost all BIA criteria, such as being a continuous Indian Tribe, actually knowing one another or having any family ties such as being "related" to one another and the biggest failure, actually having Indian blood. Also let me point out that these so called Mowas had to provide the BIA with personnel information of their own such as birth certificates, their parents birth certificates, grand parents birth certificates, great grand parents birth certificates , where they all were born and lived. It's not that hard of a thing to do unless you were adopted. Now lets say the average person is 40 that would mean that their info would only have to go back to about 1900, and all we get are immigrants. Like I said before I'm not buying it.

Oh, and by the way I don't believe for one minute that you are Indian. You have shown a weird obsessive fetish for anything Indian, you brag obsessively about meeting noted Indians and your learned knowledge about Indians. You are so over the top on this subject that you go to any length to prove to total strangers on a web site that you are indeed Indian. I'm sorry but you have over played your hand and I'm not falling for it. We've had people like you on here before and it never ends well, you all eventually go off the rails.



Lim lemtsh,

Diana
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 02, 2011, 03:04:22 am
firstly, you insinuate that other Choctaws don't accept the Mowas, well Kenneth York does and was formerly against them under Philip Martin.
Secondly, you go from a innaccurate BIA finding on the Mowas and make claims that many can't be descended from a small group of ancestors.
I give you the example of the Munsees I work with making a population recovery over a 200 year period after the Gnadenhutten Massacre
of 1782 as a comparitive example to refute your denials. I compare the small group of surviving Munsees with the small group of original
Mowa Native American ancestors and their current recovered populations. It's not that far off a comparison requiring your facial icons
as sarcasm. Kiowas had a calendar. As far as written rolls go, what I said was right. What I said had nothing to do with any of the
examples of pre contact record keeping by indigenous peoples which I acknowledge but it's nice that you twisted it like that.
The Mowas had paper evidence of ancestry through the trading agency that Young Gaines had in that part of the original Choctaw
Nation through records of tribal people buying and trading. Young Gaines ended up moving over into the part of Mississippi where
my ancestors lived in 1805. I love how someone like you wrongly judges someone because they have a desire to learn as much
as they can because It was never mentioned in school. It's not about out-indianing somebody as you so subtlely imply.
I was a student of history at a young age. My parents took me to the Poverty Point Mounds as a ten year old in 1980.
I'm used to dealing with non-Indians who don't know our histories. What you say about me doesn't bother me because
I've been to the 185 year old home of my ancestors south of Richton, MS in the Tiak chaha and I know who I am.
anumpa okpulo doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 02, 2011, 03:24:13 am
I spend thirty to forty minutes a day practicing Chahta anumpa so I guess I'm not Choctaw. Keyu, okpulo fehna. When I've had a Cherokee
langauge instructor at Haskell walk up to my father in a Kentucky Fried Chicken store and say your son fights the good fight for us I guess
I'm not Indian. When I see a bunch of complete strangers use an innaccurate BIA finding to slander people whom I've known as Indian
most of my life and I confront them with the shortfallings of that document and they keep insisting on the truths of inaccuracy and in turn
slander me and I show comparitive examples that have been commended by a mentor of mine and fellow Choctaw person at Haskell
I couldn't be Indian, no way. The Mowas have Choctaw language classes at Calcedeaver School and students attending Choctaw
Central High School at Pearl River in MS, and there will be Mowa Choctaws at Bacone College, and there will be a pow-wow
in October. The BIA was wrong and you can be wrongheaded also.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on March 02, 2011, 03:30:22 am
I guess I just don't get it.  If there is no DNA/Blood evidence, then what
is the argue about? DNA/Blood doesn't lie about where it comes from. If
they have no DNA/Blood evidence, then they just cannot be descendants.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 02, 2011, 04:15:30 am

Story ran by WKRG Channel 5 in Biloxi, Mississippi on November 12, 2007, about the National Geographic Genome project doing DNA
tests on willing participants. I knew about the National Geographic people doing DNA tests on the Chief of the Mowa Choctaws.
These snipets were pasted from the main article on the web.


News 5 is taking part in a study by National Geographic to map your deep ancestry. Read on to see how you can unlock your past with DNA.

Here's our third DNA volunteer. Wilford "Long Hair" Taylor is Chief of the MOWA Choctaw Indians. "I've heard so many stories where the Native American comes from. You just don't know and I think DNA will reveal that." His Mount Vernon tribe is fighting for national recognition. "It just doesn't add up for people to say, well you're not who you say you are when you been told that all your life from generation to generation


Chief Long Hair is part of the R1B Haplogroup. His people left Africa and migrated to Asia before heading west to Europe. "The chief's Haplogroup share ancestry with the typical Native American lineages in Central Asia around 40,000 years ago." The Chief knew a few hundred years of ancestry. Now, he knows thousands! "I really just can't believe that I touched my ancestors of 60,000 years ago by DNA. Its fascinating."

Uh Oh. there's proof to the contrary. Who's going to be in the witchhunt now. You better figure out who you're going after next. :o

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on March 02, 2011, 04:28:36 am
Well, that doesn't really say anything. I mean, 40,000 years ago my family's
DNA would be connected to a source out of Africa as well, but I am not African.

If you take my DNA and trace it back you'd get German and Russian/Lithuanian and
probably a few smatterings of something else.. which would show I am not African, even
if 40,000 years ago I had genetic connection to Africa.

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 02, 2011, 04:45:42 am
It doesn't really say anything except that at every corner where the noise on here is refuted the deniers will deny. Keep denying we'll
still be Choctaws and after all the evidence to the contrary you'll just be arguing amongst each other. Chi pisa li chinni, okla api hommi.
Chahta imanupa ish anumpuli hinla ho?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on March 02, 2011, 01:40:42 pm
tuschkahouma said

Quote
firstly, you insinuate that other Choctaws don't accept the Mowas, well Kenneth York does and was formerly against them under Philip Martin.

The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians weren’t even of aware of the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indian’s existence until fairly recently.  They started to become aware of them in the 70’s and 80’s.  This is about the same time when many of these fraudulent groups claiming to be Indian Tribes starting appearing out of thin air throughout the South East.  In post 47 you posted the article from Cedric Sunray entitled, Will the Choctaw Nation Please Stand Up.  Cedric Sunray implies in that article, that there is some sort of Historical alliance between the Mississippi Choctaws and the MOWAS.  WHICH THERE IS NOT!

Here is an excerpt from a letter written in 1991 from Chief Phillip Martin to Daniel K. Inouye, the then Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs in regards to this alleged Mississippi Choctaw/Mowa  connection.  There is no evidence to support neither yours nor Cedric Sunray’s assertions of a Historical alliance between the Mowas and the Mississippi Band.

Quote
It has only been within the last 10 to 20 years that the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians has been aware there were people in Washington and Mobile counties, Alabama, claiming Choctaw descent.  Some members of that community have visited the reservation here in Mississippi to study tribal customs; and some tribal members here  have been paid by the MOWAs to come over to teach the community Choctaw dances and the Choctaw language ( although currently we know no one there that does speak the language.)  Our people could discern no Choctaw customs extant among the MOWA population at the time of our first contacts with them; and insofar as we are aware, the only Traditional Choctaw customs now practiced by the MOWA community have resulted from instruction by members of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians.  These activities were carried out by individual members of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians and did not constitute any form of recognition by the tribal government of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 02, 2011, 02:03:08 pm
this was during the smear my neighbors to protect my iskulli period for Mr. Martin. If you're good at finding things look at the attacks
the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians had to put up with from Chief Martin in the 1990's. There have been Mowas who went to Choctaw
Central High School on the rez for decades almost three hours to the northwest of Mt. Vernon. And the chorus still goes...
every bit of evidence denied by people who don't want to lose skepticism.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on March 02, 2011, 02:38:05 pm
I still see no evidence of these people being native there has nothing other than hearsay posted,
As native people we know our families and who they are so we can tell people seven generation back
you tell the history of 500 years ago which means there is little to connect you today with the people.
rumors and hearsay is all i have seen on this post no evidence. Just like those so called Blackfeet-sponi people
who have evidence except a supposed church that was named blackfeet, no relationship to us as a people.
We need evdence, real evidence the genealogy to the Native people with their native names.
As Native people we have no problem saying who we are, everyone should know their background.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on March 02, 2011, 03:00:47 pm

Story ran by WKRG Channel 5 in Biloxi, Mississippi on November 12, 2007, about the National Geographic Genome project doing DNA
tests on willing participants. I knew about the National Geographic people doing DNA tests on the Chief of the Mowa Choctaws....

 "The chief's Haplogroup share ancestry with the typical Native American lineages in Central Asia around 40,000 years ago." The Chief knew a few hundred years of ancestry. Now, he knows thousands! "I really just can't believe that I touched my ancestors of 60,000 years ago by DNA. Its fascinating."

Uh Oh. there's proof to the contrary. Who's going to be in the witchhunt now. You better figure out who you're going after next. :o


You really don't help either yourself or the Mowas by getting so hysterical and making ridiculous claims. Apparently, to you, asking questions or saying "I disagree" is the same as a "witchhunt."

What you found was evidence a single Mowa has Native DNA. Not Choctaw, but Native. The DNA tests can't prove ancestry to a single tribe.

And some of us have said repeatedly that the DNA evidence shows a tiny number, a couple percent of the Mowas, have Native DNA. 95% or more don't.

You didn't post the link for that article. If the Nat'l Geographic testing found more than a single Mowa testing positive as a Native, you would no doubt be crowing about it. Obviously, it didn't.

What I strongly suspect is that you had a few Natives at some point in the past who intermixed, esp with escaped slaves and free Blacks, and later on poor whites. NDN identity offered an out, a way to get less discrimination than being black or mixed black/white. I don't see why that's such a bad thing as you seem to think.

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: snorks on March 02, 2011, 04:45:38 pm
I hesitated to enter this conversation but I felt I could contribute something. 

One time in my life I wanted to be Indian.  Don't ask me why because I do not have the foggiest idea.  My family had stories of distant Native ancestors, and of course I wanted to know more.  I researched, found all sorts of information, and learned the language etc.  However, I did not know anyone from the tribe of my family's stories.  I ended up looking up various NE groups make of folks like me, not real tribes but want-to-be.  Eventually, I realised that there is a big difference between lightening and a lightening bug.  So I stopped, and went about my life as an ordinary White person.

My conclusion is that if you don't know anyone of the real tribe, have no real DNA evidence, or have no real idea of culture unless derived from books, then why continue to be what you are really not.

My experience with some of the NE groups was that they were looking for straws to prove that they were the real deal but they usually got stopped by the fact they couldn't prove their existence as a cohesive group before the 1970s or 80s.  They were usually started by one family or person who ended up being "chief".  Or they had some slim evidence of a mistaken Census identification.  The neighbours usually had a different idea about these groups in that they were not Indians and were just doing it for the money or for tax advantages.  In short the local people *knew* who these people really were.

As for the person who is defending the Mowas, having most of the evidence coming from one book, no matter how well done, is still a secondary source.  Primary sources are needed as proof.  Also, more than one book is needed as proof.

I hope I haven't trod on anyone's toes.  I will go back to reading and lurking.  I joined the list to understand more about these fake groups that I had ran into.

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 12:28:15 am
my family is historically from that area. My non-Indian ancestors moved there in 1800 as I previously stated. My ancestors are buried in Greene and Perry County, MS, and Washington County, AL. Washington County is the Wa in Mowa. I've traveled extensively through that area since my grandparents moved back to the MS Gulf Coast in 1974. My mom's family was from the Richton and Leakesville area. So this isn't book knowledge. I grew up there in the summers. Pretty much anyone whose ancestors have been there since the early 19th century has either Choctaw
or Creek ancestry. My aunt's ex-boss was an unenrolled Creek descendant whose family got ICC money for Alabama Creek lands in the
recent past. Obviously none of you have been to that area or know how extensively their tribal communities have been documented.
You just cast stones on the internet. I was reading about Shepherds, Treherns, Greenwood LeFlore, and Apushmataha because there
were Treherns in Pascagoula where my family lived who were related to Oklahoma Choctaw Treherns.

Unlike all of the Seakonke Wampanoag groups that snorks is referring to, people in the Mowa Community spoke the Choctaw language
historically. The Mowas aren't some ground up cultural restoration like the some of the Pequots. They do what they've always
done. Choctaws have always been in Alabama. Alabamu is a Choctaw word as is Koasati and Coushatta. Chunchilla is a historic
Mowa community as is Nunih Chaha. The Mowas aren't pretendians. They are the descendants of Choctaws, Creeks, Cherokees,
Mabilians, and Chiracahua Na-Dene along with Euro and African peoples. The area where they are was in the St. Stephans or Hoe Buckintoppa
Choctaw treaty area.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 01:18:23 am
if this evidence wasn't stated by me in the earlier part of this inquisition I'll give you all a bit of Choctaw history now. Apushmataha was a Choctaw
Chief prior to removal in 1830. He died in 1824 in Washington D.C. . He was very pro-American and fought along side Andrew Jackson
at Horseshoe Bend attacking the Red Stick Creeks who killed his parents. Tecumseh was a Creek Shawnee visionary who paid
Apushmataha a visit for alliance purposes leading up to the War of 1812. Apushmataha was allied with the Americans and told
Tecumseh and Tenskwataweh to leave. The two brothers found followers amongst the Red Stick Creeks in their pursuit to stop
the theft of their lands by Americans. Some forty Choctaw warriors and families went along with Tecumseh and were banished with death threats
from the MS Choctaw area. When Apushmataha died in D.C., some of these warriors returned to MS. The majority stayed in the
Mowa area. This is where some of the Mowa Choctaw ancestry comes from. The Mowa community views Apushmataha as a sellout
who cost them their lands and recognition. The Mowa view of these circumstances is historic from that time. Ironically, this sellout view has reared
it's head in conversations I've witnessed for years. I had a MS Choctaw co-worker about 12 years ago attending Haskell. I told
him I knew Oklahoma Choctaws who were almost fullbloods from LA with French ancestors. His comment shocked me but he said,
"They ain't real... they left us". The leaving equasion was brought on somewhat by leaders like Apushmataha. A lot of the
anti Mowa sentiments people like Philip Martin had are historic from right before removal in 1830. I have issues concerning Choctaw
removal because the white side of my ancestry lives on land they took from the Choctaw and Biloxi side of my ancestry.
We're not pretendians. We have a history like other tribes where people still hold grieviances amongst one another over past tragedies
that caused great geographical splits with Choctaws in AL, LA, MS, TX, and OK, due to removal policies of the US Government.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 01:37:51 am
The statement Philip Martin made about not knowing about the Mowa Choctaws until recently is typical of MS and LA Indians.
Clyde Jackson, a Jena Choctaw man stated that he thought the Jenas were the only Indians in the United States after his ancestor's
separation from a removal trail in the 1830's and their subsequent staying in LA. This was in the book, "As Long as the Waters Flow"
by Frye Galliard which also covered the Mowa Choctaws, Miss Choctaws, Poarch Creeks, Tunica Biloxis, and Houmas along with
a number of other southern and northeastern tribes with federal, state, and no recognition. If there was animosity and no respect
why did the MS and Mowa Choctaws end up in the same book?  All of the Tecumseh, Tenskataweh, and Apushmataha history
touches me directly. The Munsees I work with originally came from Moraviantown where Tecumseh died in battle. His memorial
statue is west of Moraviantown on the edge of the 1813 battlefield where I saw it. His brother, Tenskwataweh, is buried in a grove
surrounded by an old neighborhood in Kansas City, KS, which I finally found last summer where the area is now protected.
Tecumseh and Tenskwataweh visited the Choctaws and lured warriors away from Apushmataha whose descendants are now
amongst the Mowa Choctaw people. Having been to Ontario and Alabama I appreciate the distance the two Shawnee
brothers covered trying to stop the Americans thirst for land. We have a history the nahollos will never have.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 04:46:31 am
I have a question for Diana since she's Anishnabe. What's your take on the Burt Lake Band of Ottawas and Chippewas who were the victims
of BIA bureaucrats who didn't want to federally recognize them in Michigan so that they could be part of a multi million dollar
claim settlement on millions of acres of land lost in 1830's fraudulent treaties? No one is ever slandered over money are they?
Ada Deer stated that just because they were a tribe at some point in the past doesn't they are now and that was a statement
that denied damage monies and federal recognition. No one is ever selectively victimized over money and denied who they are
legally?  The federal government and Michigan didn't want any more fed three fires people in Michigan just as the MS Band of
Choctaws and Poarch Creeks didn't want any more gaming competition from the Jena Band of Choctaws or the Mowa Band of Choctaws.
And they leaned on the GOP, Jack Abramov, Michael Scanlon, and Ralph Reed, to accomplish this goal. The MS Band got especially
active after the Jena Band tried to put a casino in MS below the MS Choctaws not too long ago. Think about it.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on March 03, 2011, 06:53:37 am
I have a question for Diana since she's Anishnabe. What's your take on the Burt Lake Band of Ottawas and Chippewas who were the victims
of BIA bureaucrats who didn't want to federally recognize them in Michigan so that they could be part of a multi million dollar
claim settlement on millions of acres of land lost in 1830's fraudulent treaties? No one is ever slandered over money are they?
Ada Deer stated that just because they were a tribe at some point in the past doesn't they are now and that was a statement
that denied damage monies and federal recognition. No one is ever selectively victimized over money and denied who they are
legally?  The federal government and Michigan didn't want any more fed three fires people in Michigan just as the MS Band of
Choctaws and Poarch Creeks didn't want any more gaming competition from the Jena Band of Choctaws or the Mowa Band of Choctaws.
And they leaned on the GOP, Jack Abramov, Michael Scanlon, and Ralph Reed, to accomplish this goal. The MS Band got especially
active after the Jena Band tried to put a casino in MS below the MS Choctaws not too long ago. Think about it.

@tusckahouma, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not Anishnabe. As a matter of fact I've never said I was Indian or not, ever, on this forum and I've been posting here for 5 years. Just to set you straight I would never be so impudent, conspicuous or boorish to talk about my personel life on this forum because this forum is not about me. Think about it.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana


PS. I agree with Ada Deer
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 07:04:47 am
Editorial: Mississippi Hiding
Thursday, June 23, 2005

 
"You have to be ruthless. You can't be nice to these people."
-- C. Bryant Rogers, outside counsel for Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians. June 22, 2005.

The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians are an American success story. After years of being disregarded by the federal government, the tribe took matters into its own hands, turning the reservation into an attractive place to do business long before Indian gaming became a reality. A casino eventually came along in 1989, making the Choctaws the third largest employer in the state of Mississippi.

This story of success, from poverty to prosperity, is one worth telling. But now that the tribe is under scrutiny for freely giving millions to non-Indian lobbyists and so-called activists, the Mississippi Choctaws don't seem to want to share anymore. Chief Philip Martin, the tribe's highly revered and respected leader, is nowhere to be found. After facing no questions from the committee, C. Bryant Rogers, the tribe's longtime outside counsel, rushed his colleagues out of the hearing room in hopes of avoiding reporters' queries.

Which leads to the $15 million question: What do the Choctaws have to hide?

Tough luck finding out. Even though the tribe's witnesses at yesterday's Senate Indian Affairs Committee hearing went out of their way to point out that their lobbying and public relations activities are "lawful," they aren't letting the American public know about these activities, citing some very vague and unspecified "First Amendment" rights.

Could it be that the tribe is ashamed to admit that it associated with the likes of Grover Norquist and Ralph Reed? These Republicans were more than willing to take millions in tribal funds -- just as long as it was "scrubbed" clean so that no one would find out that it came from a tribal source. Trouble is, someone actually bothered to find out.

"Sometimes that's called laundering but that has a criminal connotation," Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-North Dakota) dutifully noted.

It's more likely that these GOP activists were too embarrassed to be associated with tribes because, as everyone knows, Indian gaming is toxic. Ralph Reed can't get away faster from the tribe after it was disclosed he accepted $1.15 million from the Choctaws. And when's the last time you heard Grover Norquist defend tribal sovereignty?

"I'm sure there probably were concerns or public perception concerns about ... not being associated with a tribe or with a gaming tribe," Nell Rogers, the tribe's planner, observed.

So where does that leave the tribe? After all, the tribe knowingly spent millions in order to "shape public opinion," as Chief Martin's testimony-in-absentia stated.

Or could it be that the tribe is ashamed to admit that it may have worked to undermine the self-determination of other tribes, a right that the Choctaws exercised so very well on their path to success? Documents and phone scripts released by the committee yesterday indicate that tribal money was used to "shape public opinion" against the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians in Louisiana, the Tigua Tribe and Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas and the Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi in Michigan.

Did the Choctaws fund any of these efforts or similar campaigns against the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, whose sovereignty is under attack by Christian groups and state officials in Alabama? Thanks to a special agreement with the committee that keeps certain tribal documents out of the public record, we may never know the answer
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 03, 2011, 07:12:59 am
the previous post was written in June 2005. I remember watching c-span and seeing a completely different John McCain clobbering Abramov
associates over this very subject. I thought it was strange that the MS Choctaws were in bed politically with the GOP. They had worked
with US Senator Trent Lott for some time especially in the 1990's when land was put in trust in Jackson County, MS with Mr Lott's
approval. If a larger tribe didn't like another tribe and they had influence, they could make life hard for their tribal adversaries which they did.
I was in MS at that time in 2005. My relatives lost homes in Katrina. Food for thought backing up what I previously stated.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: bbreed on March 03, 2011, 11:57:10 pm
tuschkahouma

I am a member of the Mowa Choctaw and I wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your "defense". I have read each post on this forum and I am awestruck by the attempt on here by people to tell me what my ancestry is. I think I may start telling them were they came from since I know just as much about them as they do me.

We clearly sent the requested information to the BIA and our leader retrieved un opened boxes of information from Washington.They did not even bother to read it. Another issue i have with the statements on here is when did the BIA become so infallable? Wasnt this the department that did the rotten meat and indian agents that destroyed so many tribes? Never did I think that I would hear Natives (if they truly are) praise this agency so much.
I just loved how the people on here praise Phillip Martin. He did well for his people that cannot be denied but "hero" he will never be. He is a modern day Apushmataha. He fought his own people.So what if he served in the military? So did my father and he took a bullet for a nation that refuses to see him for what he was. A Native American. If Phillip Martin  was half the man that Cedric Sunray was then the world would have been a better place. 

A fact that cant be denied is - We have lived for hundreds of years on lands that are historically Choctaw/Creek and no matter how many times people have tried to debunk our claims, no one has been able to come up with a suitable alternative to our origins. When reading newspaper articles or any reference book concerning our people from the late 19th to early 20th century it was determined that we came from the "coons and foxes" or "we just sprung up out of the ground". Both of these explanations are ridiculous as you can tell. So since every one on here know s so much about us, I would love for them to tell me how my people just sprang up out of the ground?
No matter if we ever get federal recongnition or not we are going to continue to be a strong people.We do not need the Govenments permission to be Native.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 04, 2011, 05:24:10 am
yokoke, bbreed ;)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on March 04, 2011, 03:35:18 pm
Still no evidence just heresay so far.
I was wondering how far back to you have to go to have full blood
Native member in your band?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: bbreed on March 04, 2011, 07:20:27 pm
what type of proof would you like? We have oral history, government documents referring to us a "indians" and letters from other tribes asking for our support in helping them achieve federal recognition (poarch creek). We have been treated differently by all surrounding people. Do you want us to have a government official say it? I really dont know what you expect.
 I have read articles on the internet that questions people on this forum's bloodlines.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: tuschkahouma on March 05, 2011, 02:17:37 am
there are mowas that look fullblood right now. In my ancestry, five generations back, my great great grandmother was half Choctaw/half Biloxi.
She married a German man named Breland and from that I'm a 32nd Choctaw and a 32nd Biloxi. When a community is ostracized and
isolated they tend to marry amongst each other, so the quantum is there.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on March 05, 2011, 04:54:36 am
IOW,  since 95% or more of Mowas have no NDN ancestry, there are probably a few dozen out of over a thousand. T is 15/16 white and/or Black and 31/32 non-Choctaw by his own account. Obviously there was actually quite a bit of outmarriage among the Mowas. If a thousand people married only amongst themselves for 180+ years you'd see lots of birth defects quick, plus lower fertility rates.

Again, that outmarriage makes sense and fits right in with my earlier suggestion about the likely truth of the Mowas you keep ignoring. Culturally yall could be somewhat Choctaw even if by bloodline most of you aren't. There's a Black Seminole community in south Texas, over in Bracketville, that's in a somewhat similar situation. (Then again, Blackwolf did post evidence pointing out you had to go the MS Choctaws because most Mowa didn't know Choctaw ways, didn't speak the language, know the customs or dances etc.) But I suppose you'd rather rant about witch hunts. Here's a clue: Supposed victims of a witch hunt generally don't get a chance to speak their piece...

...And speak, and speak, and speak, as you have, even ignoring questions and going off on tangents.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: earthw7 on March 05, 2011, 03:49:31 pm
I was not talking about blood quantum but culture
The last full blood would be the one who had the full
culture intacked with languae, culture and spirituality.
That would be how far you are removed from the culture.
When the full blood marries outside the culture they bring in
half of what the culture is to the marriage then the next generation
and so on so after 5 generations what you have left only tiny bits of
a real culture left. Only stories told by others or wrote by others.
Which does not make a nation.
I can go to my parents who are full blood and my grandparents, grew up
with my culture around me.
So yes, i wonder what do you know of the bone pickers from choctaw culture?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: snorks on March 05, 2011, 04:05:59 pm
Please excuse some flakiness, my server is fruitie today.

How do the Mowas differ from a cultural club?

Longevity in an area?  There are families in rural New England who are White, have been there for at least three hundred years.  They are not considered Native American.

BQ?  From the conversations presented, the BQ is very low.  If I believe my family stories, and I am White, I have more BQ.  But that doesn't make me a Native American.

Tribal recognition?  Who of the federal tribes recognise them?  Why the Mowa's dislike of the Poarch Branch Creeks?

What I have read about Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA) etc.  makes no sense.  He is my Congress person, and I don't seem to recall his stance against Mowas.  He seems to be more interested in China and human rights.  Jack Abramoff (sp?) seemed to have cheated a lot of folks.  He took their money and did nothing.  How does he factor in all of this?

I don't understand how they can be a longstanding tribe if they are struggling to define themselves.  Are they Choctaw?  Creek?  Apache?  What I have read, they seem to have cast a wide net.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: bbreed on March 06, 2011, 12:25:59 am
I can certainly understand people being confused about people they know nothing about. I am not on here trying to convince people of what i am. It really doesnt matter what others view us as. I dont know where this silly claim that we hired people from the Mississippi Choctaw came from. I grew up in that area and when i asked others in the community if they ever remember something like this happening no one can remember this happening. The culture and community that i grew up in is the same one that my grandfather grew up in and his father and so on and so on. What people on here seem to be overlooking is that the Mississippi Choctaws saw things in our community that they recognised as Choctaw culture and they tried to explain why it was so. One good thing about it all is that Miko Denson stated when he was elected that his tribe would no longer fight us.There is always two sides to every story.  I really wished people would do more research than just trying to restate that BIA's opinion when they denied us.

The dislike of the Poarch Creek came from a letter from their leader before recognition-Eddie Tullis- sending a letter to our leader at the time asking for our support as a people on their application for federal recognition in the spirit of "indian brother hood" (what a joke). We whole heartedly supported them and then once they received federal recognition, they turned around and along with the Mississippi Choctaw fought us tooth and nail (money galore). Being that these two groups had more money and more lobbyist than we could afford, they contributed greatly in our being denied. We do not like the Poarch Creek people as individuals we just didnt like the dirty moves that their leaders did. I feel that it is justified. Maybe others feel differently.

I am confused about one thing though. Maybe some of you more learned people can answer though. Is everyone arguing that there are no choctaws in Alabama? Did they all except the Mississippi Choctaws just leave and go to Oklahoma?
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: BlackWolf on March 06, 2011, 01:11:15 am
bbreed said

Quote
I am confused about one thing though. Maybe some of you more learned people can answer though. Is everyone arguing that there are no choctaws in Alabama? Did they all except the Mississippi Choctaws just leave and go to Oklahoma?

I think most people who have contributed to this thread wouldn’t deny that there are bona fide descendants in Alabama of Choctaws that stayed behind after the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek.  Probably most of these descendants are just average people who don’t claim to be part of some bogus Tribe.  

But because this may be true, (that some Choctaws stayed behind), that does not necessarily mean  that the Mowa’s descend from these Choctaws.  In fact, other than that small percent who descend from Alexander Brashears, etc., all the evidence shows otherwise.  

Also, we are talking about these specific families such as the descendants of Daniel and Rose Reed, and the Weavers, etc. Also as Diana pointed out, virtually all of the Mowa’s ancestors who were supposedly Indians were actually immigrants from other places.  One of the core MBC families actually came in from Georgia.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on March 09, 2011, 01:58:23 am
Here's a prime example of how these fraudulent heritage clubs (I refuse to call them a Tribe) use their ill gotten state recognition for trying to take federal funds designated for real Tribes. I don't know at this point in time if this scam by the Mowa ever came to fruition, but the audacity in it's self is morally heinous.

http://www.southalabamian.com/news/2010-12-15/Front_Page/MOWA_tribe_wants_its_own_industrial_authority.html


MOWA tribe wants its own industrial authority 2010-12-15
By Ellen Williams
SA Reporter

Darren Snow and MOWA attorney, Bob Brock, met with the Washington County Commission on Monday, Dec. 13, to request a resolution by that body to establish an industrial authority. Snow explained that the tribe has property on the reservation designated as an industrial park. Bob Brock who represents the MOWA Band of Choctaws said that to set aside land for an industrial park, it is necessary to establish a nonprofit authority.

Judge Charles Singleton explained that Washington County already has an established industrial board whose purpose is to seek out industry and bring employment opportunities to Washington County. “Let me understand here,” Singleton stated,” there are just X amount of dollars above Highway 80. You say you will be seeking grant monies. Who will you be seeking money from?”

Brock said the MOWA entity will seek money from ADECA, Alabama Department of Economic and Community Affairs, among others.
Brock insisted that the MOWAs need industrial authority within the Tribe and would not be in competition with Washington County.

“Then you will be (by applying to ADECA) in direct competition with the county,” Singleton said.

At this point in the discussion, Michael Onderdonk, county attorney came into the room. He questioned the authority for the MOWA Tribe to create an industrial park. “At what point, did the Washington County Commission pass a resolution for an industrial park?” he asked. “Under the Indian Park Act, when did the county commission establish an industrial park? I am not aware of any law that allows any entity to establish an industrial park except municipalities and county commissions.”

Brock insisted that Alabama Statute 92-A allows others to be established.

Again Onderdonk asked, “Has Washington County created an industrial park?” He continued and indicating the application said, “I see that you have listed Mobile, Choctaw, Monroe and Clarke counties. Won’t you have to get resolutions from the county commissions in all those counties as well?”

Brock said the MOWA Tribe is state-recognized and that all they were at the meeting to do was submit an application to create an industrial development authority. “We want to attract businesses and bring in jobs. When the MOWAs are employed they will spend money and pay taxes to Washington County.”


When Brock stated that the industrial authority would be seeking federal dollars, Onderdonk reminded them that MOWA Choctaws are not federally recognized. Snow shouted, “But we are state recognized. I didn’t know you had so much problem with our state-recognition, Mr. Onderdonk!” Snow stood and shouted.

“You need to preach in your own church, not in here,” Onderdonk replied. Whereupon Singleton called Snow down and restored order.

Onderdonk asked Brock and Snow if by creating employment opportunities for only one ethnic group, they were asking the commission to discriminate against one group of its citizens in favor of another.

Snow said, “We go to Olin and BASF and others and ask for qualifications and we send our boys to be trained and then they come back and apply and are told the qualifications have changed.”

Snow said that Bay Gas of McIntosh has 20 employees but not a single one is a minority. “Why don’t we get an equal share in this county in employment?”

The commission decided to study the matter before giving an answer. Snow asked for the commission’s decision in writing.




Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on March 23, 2011, 10:45:37 pm
Found another article with the mowas receiving a large amount of money. The article is not necessarily about the mowas, but they are mentioned. I posted the part where they are receiving the money. My bold and here's the link. http://www.southalabamian.com/news/2009-07-09/news/020.html

"The presentation stated that Washington County is slated for $43,354.48 regular CSBG funds and $86,561.61 in projected stimulus funds. The MOWA band of Choctaws will receive $60,677. Their funding is counted separately because Indian nations are not included with the county as a whole."

Lim lemtsh,

Diana
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 01:36:32 am
Still no evidence just heresay so far.
I was wondering how far back to you have to go to have full blood
Native member in your band?

Well, I'm an enrolled member of the MOWA Choctaw and my family does date all the way back...

We've lived in our lands since before the Indian Removal Act. 

One of our cemeteries was established in 1800, the bodies were buried literally one, atop the other, until the cemetary was expanded an additional acreage was given to our people to help solve the problem.

We don't have to pretend to be who we are, we just are what we are.

Our community has been ostracized by both local towns on either end of us for most of my 44 years and long before that.

Segregation ended in 1965 for some but in 1985 we still had a race riot and the local paper said the Indians were scalping the white kids at school.  Not to make light of that incident. 

I've heard you say there was no proof of our heritage.

I'm going to post reference to some 30+ pages of proof that our people have access to for anyone's enjoyment.  Our tribal center has more.

The biggest evidence we have how we live and our local customs - that have persisted in our community since before the Indian Removal Act.

Some of our folks are Choctaw (the current Mississippi Choctaw Princess seems to bear an uncanny to at least one MOWA squaw that lives on the Red Fox Road and a couple of others too).

In fact, I went to their website and quite a few of the people they are showing off as Indians could pass for locals MOWA's by appearance.  Strange that no one thinks there might be some family between the two tribes.

It also seems strange to me that people forget that Mobile and Washington Counties were once a part of the Mississippi Territories.

People forget that the our people were the outcasts from other tribes - perhaps if you saw where my grandparents and great grandparents had to live you might better understand that they suffered some disadvantage due to their race and heritage.

Check this link out and take a look over 30 pages and 12 boxes of the MOWA historical documentation.

Remember our people were illiterate for most of this century to a large part.

Remember folks my dad's age had to walk some 5-6 miles to get to the Weaver Indian School on Patillo Road.

Remember not many of our folks ever made it to Citronelle High School to get past the 6th grade.

Remember our people had to claim white or black - most claim white and some to this day.  Even when their skin is purely a light to a very dark tone of terracotta.  Most now claim Indian since the MOWA was advertised.

Remember even today the MOWA still have some communication challenges getting tribal information to the entire tribe in the local communities.

People need written documentation...

We have that in the form of Dr. Monte L. Moorer - Look him up.  He made some consideration for the heirs of the Native Americans that have lived here - he tried to help us and in fact, it seems some of our tribe may have neglected this fact.

I'm involved now my own immediate family has grown from a pair of grandparents who had 7 children to a much larger 200+ descendents in this past century.  That's just 5 generations alone.  There are more not counting the parents of my own grandparents - they can probably claim even more descendents - maybe double or triple this number.

The primary families of Byrds and Weavers and a few other surnames have inter-married over the last 100-200 years or so at least and as such mostly all of them have a considerably high blood quantum.  I'd gather to say a few families are pretty close to pure blood.

Take a look at this evidence - it was not previously made public except as reference materials.

Darby Weaver



Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 01:47:21 am
Another interesting thing about this group is that many of their members claim descent from other Tribes such as the Cherokee, Chickasaws, Creeks and Mescalero Apaches.  Not surprisingly however, the overwhelming majority of these claims could not be substantiated.

Quote
The MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians was duly incorporated in 1979 with its tribal office located in McIntosh and purchased their first 160 acres of land in south Washington County in 1983. They adopted the name “MOWA Choctaw Indians” to identify the Indians in Mobile and Washington Counties who are descended from several Indian Tribes: Choctaw, Creek, Cherokee, Mescalero, and Apache.
http://www.aaanativearts.com/choctaw-indians/index.html (http://www.aaanativearts.com/choctaw-indians/index.html)

You need to come out and visit our cemeteries - not many white or black people there due a very racist South Alabama.

The Weaver-Byrd families are largely Cherokee by blood.  They are also the majority of families in the Mobile County area.

The Byrd Cemetary

The Weaver School for Indians

Byrd Pit - A Road.

Other areas are largely populated with the Byrd/Weavers and the other Native American families they married with along the way.

Today they are still inter-marrying.

The blood is what it is.  They did inter-marry with each other across the generations and have stayed together as a community since before the Indian Removal Act of 1832.

We are still the rightful heirs of this land we live in and we are not going anywhere.

Darby Weaver



Did you think we needed your approval to be who we are?



Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 02:20:23 am
tuschkahouma said
Quote
Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?

Can you give us some examples from the book that make the case for the MOWAs?

tuschkahouma said

Quote
You all have been going off of a BIA determination that was a by  product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth,which it is not.

What exactly don’t you agree with in the Proposed Findings Against Acknowledgment of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians?  Can you give some specific examples of what you don’t agree with and why, backed up by evidence?

Jackie Mattie has some 12 boxes of her research that is the evidence that you are asking for that lives today at University of South Alabama.

Everything is there - birth and death certificates, land ownership, letters, pictures, oral accounts, etc.

Starting to see the picture my friend?

Darby Weaver
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 02:25:58 am
I’ve read ALL of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians counter arguments that were recorded in the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs Hearings on June 26th, 1991 in regards to their Federal Recognition, and I’ve also read Jacqueline A. Matte’s testimony.  That was her opportunity to make her case.  She states that Indians were counted as black or white after the Civil War “because Indians were not supposed to be there”.   There is no evidence to support that the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indian’s ancestors were Indians neither after the Civil War, before the Civil War, nor at any other point in time

As I pointed out before, the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians ancestors, and Authentic Choctaw descendants that aren’t necessarily enrolled in one of the Federally Recognized Choctaw Tribes can document their Choctaw ancestry back for generations on many other documents besides censuses.  Even if this happened to be the case with the MOWAs, this does not explain why no evidence whatsoever going back over 200 years can substantiate any of their claims to being a Choctaw Tribe, an Indian Tribe or to being Indians.  The evidence clearly shows who their ancestors were, and they were not Indians.   Many of them believe they are of Indian heritage because of the oral story that was passed on to them in their family.

With that said, their BIA Denial was not based on one single factor such as a census, but based on a combination of many, many factors, all of which suggest that the overwhelming majority (or 98%) of the members of the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indians are neither Indians nor of Indian descent.  All of the evidence clearly shows these people are descended from whites, blacks, and Mulattos: Descended from people who in some cases were described as Cajans, Cajuns, Creoles, or Creoles of Color in some of the historical literature.  Some of their ancestors may have  claimed Indian, Choctaw, or Cherokee because of various Anti Miscegenation laws and other laws in place in Alabama and the Southeast at the time, and claiming Indian worked to their advantage, or as educatedindian pointed out,
Quote
for most white southerners, it was a way for the family to hide that they likely had Black ancestors, something most regarded with shame and was usually illegal at the time
.

I also suggest you read Origins of the MOWA Band of Choctaws: A Critique by Jonnie Andrews Jr.

As far as Richard Shelby, the US Senator from Alabama goes, he is a Senator from Alabama, and will do what he can to help and support his constituents.  He also testified at that hearing.   He cited the fact that they (the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians) got funding from Federal and State sources, and that that was some sort of proof that they are recognized as Indians.  Just because a Tribe is State Recognized and gets some sort of funding from the Federal or State Government is meaningless.  Just because a Governor signs a piece of paper recognizing a club as an Indian Tribe to bring in Federal dollars is also meaningless. 



tuschkahouma said

Quote
Geronimo's people spent seven years here and I've met Apache descendants in the Mowa community. A child of Geronimo’s attended Carlisle Indian School and died there. He is buried in Mobile
.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the claims that any of the MOWAs are descended neither from Apaches nor from Geronimo.  What evidence do you have of this?

This theory was investigated in depth and can be found in the BIA document.

Quote
MOWA claims that-Lizzie Sullivan's father was an Apache that was imprisoned at Mt. Vernon Barracks in Washington County during their stay prior to removal to Oklahoma. The Apaches were at Mt. Vernon Barracks from 1887 until 1894. Evidence for this is -a statement of Lizzie's sister, as recorded in an -extract of an oral interview
.

Quote
Though the Apaches had interacted with the local population, there is no documentation to support the theory that any child was born of Apache parentage other than between the Apaches themselves. The interpreter, who married an Apache woman and removed to Oklahoma, had the only recorded Apache birth. The oral interview extract cited stated that the person had heard from Lizzie's sister that Lizzie’s father was an Apache named "Rye", but that he didn't know for sure. This was hearsay and not supported by any documentation. Several in-depth studies of this theory all have concluded that no Apache offspring could be found remaining in the Washington County, AL. Thus, it is highly improbable that Indian ancestry could be claimed through any of the Apache who had been at Mt. Vernon
.

educatedindian said

Quote
About the claims of Apache/Choctaw babies at Mt Vernon barracks, this was among the most heavily documented groups, ever. There was quite a media circus surrounding their imprisonment and every single Apache in the group was under heavy guard. The chances of a child being born with no one knowing about it are pretty slim
.

educatedindian,

I beg to be forgiven for what I am going to say...

Do you think a man could have impregnated a woman at the Mt. Vernon Barracks (over some 600+ acres of land) whose brick walls were made by those same Apache and local Indians... while working together?

I guess you have never been to our neck of the woods - cause that's where we still reside today.

Hell, we barely have roads over the last 30-40 years or so...

50 plus years ago we barely had 5-6 house on the main highway through our community here in Mobile County.

Today people are inter-married and worse children are born out of wedlock and even worse from someone outside the marriage.... as it is. 

I guess it would not be unreasonable to suggest that this behavior originated somewhere...  in the family tree...

Darby Weaver

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 02:31:25 am
At the MOWA Choctaw hearing for Federal Recognition, the alleged Apache/MOWA Choctaw connection was also brought up in testimony.   According to the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid,  as was told by a MOWA Supporter and retired Anthropologist, the Apaches who were at MT. Vernon, allegedly raided a MOWA Choctaw funeral, stole their Sofki, threw a party for themselves, and then stole a MOWA Choctaw Baby.  Sofki is a fermented corn liquor.  The Apache ancestry story appears to be fairly prevalent with many MOWAS.


Here is the recorded testimony of Margaret Z. Searcy, a retired University of Alabama Anthropologist.  The story appears to have come from the MOWA Choctaw Chairman at the time, Framon Weaver.

Quote
One of the things I learned in talking to Mr. Weaver, was the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid.  I asked him to tell me about some of the things that happened in the past.  I was thinking in terms of old Searcy Hospital that at one time was a Federal Fort.  I asked him to tell me about that.
He said, “Well, Mrs. Searcy, I can tell you about Geronimo when Geronimo was there.”  I encouraged him to do so because after Geronimo and the Apaches were captured they were taken and kept at Searcy Hospital.  Federal soldiers allowed the Indians to go out and farm during the daytime.  I think Geronimo had to stay locked up, but the Apaches reported back to the fort every night.
When they went out, the MOWA were about to have a funeral.  They have distinct individual funeral customs.  For each funeral they prepared 10 gallons of sofki.  What is sofki?  It is fermented corn liquor.  So here were the MOWA with 10 gallons of fermented corn liquor for the wake.  While the Apaches were out, they stole the Mowa’s sofki, they had their own party, and then they stole the baby.
I asked what happened.  It seems that the Federal Government recognized that the Mowa had been deprived of their liquor and they replaced it.  I asked about the baby.  He told me that the baby was returned to the Mowa.

It is also interesting that at the Mowa Choctaw Cultural Center, besides having a Choctaw room, also has a Geronimo Room, and a Cherokee Room.   

http://www.alabama.travel/alabama-attractions/mowa_choctaw_cultural_center.html (http://www.alabama.travel/alabama-attractions/mowa_choctaw_cultural_center.html)

The MOWA band has not denied that some members originate from other tribes my friend.

You suggest that this has been suggested.  I suggest not.

Darby Weaver
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 02:37:12 am
We have many reservations that have many tribes within them.
That is with many nations.
My concern is

Did you have a traditional Government that continued to today?
I am not talking about IRA Governments.

Do the relative/closly relatived tribes accept you as their people?

Do you have written documents from the tribes saying you are related?

Does the Apache nations accept your group and have they wrote support
letters to that fact?

Do you know how many Apache had children in your area do you have a count?

Do you have the Apache names of the decsendant because that can be traced.


Do you think our people (Indians) could even write to begin with... Many documents are signed with a simple "X".

We got some people who are 70-80 years old who got to the 6th grade so far and that was 100 years after the Indian Removal Act.

Starting to get the picture.

On one of our webistes - You will find a letter from Ed Tullis of the Poarch Creek asking for the MOWA to help his tribe obtain Federal Recognition - they later did achieve such recognition.  They forgot this request later.  We have the signed document to the fact.

There are pictures of Mississippi Choctaw that look like our family and some look like twins to some MOWA youth.

Hmm... not related?

Work it out for me why people who are white or black resemble folks from a recognized Indian Tribe 60-100+ miles to the West of us.

?

Coincidence, I suppose.

Darby Weaver
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 02:57:07 am
and personally...I'd like to hear about the Calcedeaver School.  It's history, when it started, how it started etc.  That's very interesting to me.  Can  you tell us some more?

Superdog

Easy.

Calcedeaver - The Indian School in Mount Vernon.  It is the modern day remnant of the older Weaver School previously. 

We recently received an award of some millions to purchase a new school for the aging Calcedeaver School for the Indians.

That's our school.  It is on Patillo Road in Mount Vernon.

Darby Weaver

Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 03:13:08 am
Quote
About five months ago I contacted Mrs. Matte about a small cluster of Choctaw Indians still in Perry County, MS listed on the 1900 US Census with Choctaw names

Show us specific examples of these names from the Proposed Findings, and  if these are the same people, show us where and when they claimed to be Indians.  Many of the Mowa’s ancestors claimed Indian (as I pointed out before) because Race laws in Alabama started to become more strictly construed in Alabama.  Show us specific names and match them up with the Proposed Findings. 


Quote
As I previously stated about three pages ago in posting the Poarch Creeks also enrolled on the Eastern Cherokee rolls because all they heard was the words Indian rolls. It was acknowledged by the BIA for them but not for the Mowas in their application.

tuschkahouma, the Poarch Band of Creek Indians can easily prove who they are as Creek Indians, and of having a continuous political connection to the Creek Nation.  Here is the Proposed Finding in favor of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.  They should in no way be compared to the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/index.htm

http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001321.pdf


Quote
The contemporary Poarch Band of Creeks is a successor of the Creek Nation of Alabama prior to its removal to Indian Territory. The Creek Nation has a documented history back to 1540. Ancestors of the Poarch Band of Creeks began as an autonomous town of half-bloods in the late 1700's with a continuing political connection to the Creek Nation. The Poarch Band remained in Alabama after the Creek Removal of the 1830's, and shifted within a small geographic area until it settled permanently near present day Atmore, Alabama.


Hah!

We should only compare the Poarch to the MOWA when it is convenient to do so.

When the Poarch needed help they came to their brother tribe... the MOWA Choctaw...

Now things have turned after they received recognition.

Go figure...

Darby Weaver
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Darby Weaver on June 09, 2013, 03:54:21 am
bbreed said

Quote
I am confused about one thing though. Maybe some of you more learned people can answer though. Is everyone arguing that there are no choctaws in Alabama? Did they all except the Mississippi Choctaws just leave and go to Oklahoma?

I think most people who have contributed to this thread wouldn’t deny that there are bona fide descendants in Alabama of Choctaws that stayed behind after the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek.  Probably most of these descendants are just average people who don’t claim to be part of some bogus Tribe. 

But because this may be true, (that some Choctaws stayed behind), that does not necessarily mean  that the Mowa’s descend from these Choctaws.  In fact, other than that small percent who descend from Alexander Brashears, etc., all the evidence shows otherwise. 

Also, we are talking about these specific families such as the descendants of Daniel and Rose Reed, and the Weavers, etc. Also as Diana pointed out, virtually all of the Mowa’s ancestors who were supposedly Indians were actually immigrants from other places.  One of the core MBC families actually came in from Georgia.


Nevertheless that's our families in those graves in the Byrd Cemetery...  I guess people have "facts" denying that too... as far back as at least 1800.

Before that I suppose poor Indians were just buried where they lay.

Darby Weaver
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Epiphany on June 09, 2013, 04:02:22 am
(deleted by Piff, responding to spammer not helpful)


Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Epiphany on June 09, 2013, 03:28:12 pm
(deleted by Piff)
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: RedRightHand on June 09, 2013, 06:24:39 pm
Some of our folks are Choctaw (the current Mississippi Choctaw Princess seems to bear an uncanny to at least one MOWA squaw that lives on the Red Fox Road and a couple of others too).
(bolding added)

WHAT?!  22 spammy, self-aggrandizing posts in a row? Misogynist and racist epithets?

I don't think Mr. Weaver belongs here, except maybe as a topic in Frauds.

I'm told others, Natives, are also complaining about this guy. He's already demonstrated quite well what the problem is with fake tribes like the MOWA. If they'll enroll this racist white man they definitely belong in frauds. May I suggest that the spammer be banned? If he wants to email the names of his only NDN ancestors, which I'm sure he won't be able to find, he could do that. But I don't think the board should be subjected to his self-promotion. There's already plenty of it online, all you have to do is google and you'll learn far more about Mr. Weaver the fake Choctaw (or rather what he thinks about himself) than you ever wanted to know.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Epiphany on June 09, 2013, 06:50:25 pm
Some of our folks are Choctaw (the current Mississippi Choctaw Princess seems to bear an uncanny to at least one MOWA squaw that lives on the Red Fox Road and a couple of others too).
(bolding added)

WHAT?!  22 spammy, self-aggrandizing posts in a row? Misogynist and racist epithets?

I don't think Mr. Weaver belongs here, except maybe as a topic in Frauds.

I'm told others, Natives, are also complaining about this guy. He's already demonstrated quite well what the problem is with fake tribes like the MOWA. If they'll enroll this racist white man they definitely belong in frauds. May I suggest that the spammer be banned? If he wants to email the names of his only NDN ancestors, which I'm sure he won't be able to find, he could do that. But I don't think the board should be subjected to his self-promotion. There's already plenty of it online, all you have to do is google and you'll learn far more about Mr. Weaver the fake Choctaw (or rather what he thinks about himself) than you ever wanted to know.

Thanks, and I agree. I'm deleting my own posts in this thread cause it isn't helpful for me to respond to a misogynistic racist spammer as if any sort of rational discussion can be had.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: educatedindian on June 13, 2013, 01:55:27 pm
For anyone wondering, he was banned for spamming and racism. Anyone imagining he's credible, google the guy and you'll see he also claims to work with both a CIA and FBI agent and to have women worldwide falling all over him.

One of the deleted posts claimed that there is a graveyard near Mt Vernon supposedly with 200 Apache dead from Geronimo's band. The band only had about 20 warriors. Any claim of his should be verified elsewhere.

Again, the number of MOWA with NDN ancestry is apparently not even 1/20 of them. How much of any NDN culture survived among them is debatable since they turned to enrolled Choctaw for help.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 28, 2013, 11:05:05 pm
Does anyone have a more specific reference to which Byrd and Weaver lines they are claiming are NDN? I've been looking into some of the claims about those, and related lines, but so far everyone looks to me to be white. Like, well-documented white. Privileged white. Slave-owning white.

ETA: I'm going back through the names that have been posted in this thread. Amazing the lack of identifying information given for these ancestors. Without birth and death dates, and birth and death locations, and sourcing for these facts, these names are just too common to prove a thing.  It sounds like the unsourced genealogies you find on ancestry.com where people are just changing names and dates with no sourcing whatsoever, to try and fit their personal theories.

The men are easier to find, but in some cases I think people have been swapping in the wrong spouses for these white men, in order to try to bring an NDN into a line of well-sourced, well-known white people.
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: LittleOldMan on December 29, 2013, 11:52:44 am
Kathryn:  google this name Gallasneed Weaver.  I have friends and family from this area.  My Aunt worked with him in education she was with the state dept of education in charge of title one and title two.  She supervised all Native american Education including scholarships to University.  I believe he was a school principle.  She wanted to pursue scholarships for my children but backed off when I explained to her that my BQ was not high enough and neither was I enrolled in a tribe.  I new them for several years both he and Laretta were fine people very low key and not the type to claim something that they were not.  Do not know nor have I heard of a Darby weaver.  "Little Old Man" :)       
Title: Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Post by: Diana on July 09, 2014, 08:47:19 pm
Another problem with that fake group. This is proof that these fake groups are not in it because they feel that they are actual Indians and deserve to be recognized for that. They are harmful greedy frauds that deserve to go to jail.
 
By  Michael Finch II | mfinch@al.com   

Fate of MOWA Choctaw gaming machines pushed back into state court

MOBILE, Alabama -- A federal judge pushed the court case involving the seizure of gambling machines owned by the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians back into Mobile County Circuit Court after challenges to the state's authority faltered. 

The tribe argued against the state's ability to seize and destroy 50 gaming machines that were carted away from the MOWA Choctaw Entertainment Center in November 2013 by the Mobile County Sheriff's Office.

Deputies raided their facility in Mount Vernon, hauling away the gambling machines, three computers and about $10,000 in cash.

During a forfeiture hearing, attorneys for the tribe invoked sovereign immunity, arguing the case could not be heard in state court because the judge lacked jurisdiction, forcing the legal proceedings into federal court. 

U.S. Magistrate Judge Sonia F. Bivins disagreed. Her report and recommendation, dated July 3, will be reviewed by a federal court judge, who will decide how much of her reasoning will be made law.

Each party has up to 14 days to file objections.

Mobile District Attorney Ashley Rich said her office is working with the state Attorney General's Office on any legal proceedings going forward.

Sam Hill, attorney for both defendants, said the tribe and JLM Games Inc. plan to file objections, adding that the decision lacked an "overlay" of American Indian law.

Hill, who is also the tribal judge for the MOWA Choctaws, said certain "assumptions in Indian law" were not fully addressed.

"Was this order surprising? No. Was it disappointing? Yes," Hill said.

In her ruling, a 27-page analysis of the case, Bivins explained that the tribe could not challenge the state's authority on the basis of tribal immunity, one of the tribe's key claims.

The tribe also sought to dismiss the suit on the grounds that the Indian Gaming Regulation Act, the federal law that governs the three classes of gaming federally recognized tribes are allowed to provide, preempted the state's authority.

"Because IGRA's text unambiguously limits its scope to gaming by tribes that have obtained federal recognition," Bivins wrote, "the statute does not apply to tribal groups such as the MOWA Tribe who have not obtained such recognition from the Secretary of Interior."

Bivins also ruled against a claim made by the tribe that their civil rights were violated.

group.http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2014/07/fate_of_mowa_choctaw_gaming_ma.html