Two Would Be Cherokee Tribes in Kentucky

[educatedindian]

The "Southern Cherokee of Kentucky."
http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/history2.htm
This is a different group from Gary Ridge's SCN, they claim to be the true Southern Cherokee. Some of their docs they claim back that up are not too impressive.

And the "Chickamaugan Tsalagi of Kentucky" based in or near the town of Burnside. This is more of an alleged spiritual group claiming secret ceremonies and trying to build their own self sustaining community.
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/
"Kentucky Chickamaugas—also known as the Thunderbolt Cherokees—held many Council Fires at Ywahoo Falls, Cumberland Falls, and Eagle Falls—all Sacred sites....Kentucky Cherokees gathered their allies in what is now Pulaski, McCreary, and Wayne Counties of Kentucky. The Chickamauga war headquarters were based at Burnside, KY.
In the many battles that followed, including the massacre of Cherokee women and children at Ywahoo Falls—some Chickamaugas went into hiding, so that survivors would be able to pass the stories to their children. In that way, the events would be remembered.
This Land is Sacred to the Chickamauga."

Some of you might recall Vance pretty much debunked the Ywahoo Falls massacre story as false.

Their alleged tribal homeland.
http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/land.htm

There's a discussion going on in Vance's yahoo group, Chickamauga Researchers, including with two people who are part of Chickamaugas of KY.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/messages

Vance couldn't find any evidence of a Cherokee community in Burnside before the current group. Their leader is Jerry Edwards or Yonv Edwards. Nothing much online about him other than signing a Peltier clemency petition. He used to live in Mineral Springs FL.

[obi4240]

It may interest to know we have in our possession a letter from the Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, which in part states: "the atrocities that occurred at Ywahoo Falls are worthy of note, and should be considered a significant event in Cherokee history, however, few people are aware of this site, or the events that make it significant. ? It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."

The letter also states that "The Historic Preservation Office of the Cherokee Nation would support an effort to mark the Ywahoo Falls site.."

It also goes on to say "I have become well acquainted with dealing with sites of Tribal interest in (southcentral Kentucky) district)."

I have read some other email exchanges concerning the CKY-C, and they are a perfect example of twisted words and the perpetuation of misinformation. Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies' or having tipis on the land (there are none) or not requiring Cherokee ancestry to enroll. ? What was said is that blood quantum is ? not the deciding factor. ?  

We would suggest if you have questions or feel the need to investigate, come to the source for your information. ? Our doors are open. ? We hide nothing and have ? nothing to prove. ? New age fraud is as much an aggravation to us as it is to anyone who Honors the way of the people. ?

We have a CKYBeginnings list that we created to be an open forum so that people could gain a better understanding of who we are. ? The list does not require being an enrolled citizen of the band. ? The reference to the tipi probably came from an advertisement someone posted there without permission, for a gathering she was conducting in KY. ? It had nothing to do with the CKY-C. ? But one of those researchers read that and assumed we had tipis.

You may be surprised to discover some very traditional families, and very traditional individuals, are on our rolls. ?

There are some disgruntled people out there who found they could not diminish us through their arrogance and need for attention, and others who were shown the door because of their new age ways. ? These people have nothing better to do than try to discredit, just to make themselves feel more NDN.

Yes, we are a band based in Spirit and we make no apologies for that, because we feel that Unity among the People will come through Spirit, not politics or blood quantum. ? We don't play the "redder than thou" game - we know who we are and we hardly need permission to be what Creator has created us to be.

If you are looking for New Age groups and plastic shamans, you won't find any here.

Nogwisi
Cherokees of Kentucky Chickamauga

[educatedindian]

N or Obi, perhaps you can clear up a few things rather than being defensive and insulting. Your worser and more childish insults were deleted, you see, because we don't reward immature behavior.

"we have in our possession a letter from the Historic Preservation Specialist of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma"

What's their name? Are you aware Dr. Richard Allen of the CNO is a member of this forum? Perhaps the two of them should talk, since Dr. Allen has been one of the most outspoken Cherokees EVER in stating that the 300+ would be Cherokee tribes are, for the most part, heritage groups and not tribes.

"It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."

It wasn't clear whether that sentence came from you or the HPS.

If you hadn't noticed, Vance led a long discussion in his group about Ywahoo Falls. Vance also tried to discuss, in a far less confrontational manner than you, the C of K group with you and the "chief". The two of you basically resorted to the "I'm too spiritual for this" defense and then said no more. ?  ?

"Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies'"

Made a liar by your own words.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/message/1588
"What is here would boggle your mind. ? You must understand that there are Sacred and Holy things that were put away and kept hidden and you will never find references to them on pages written by the white man, and they are right here in Kentucky."

Back to your post:
"We would suggest if you have questions or feel the need to investigate, come to the source for your information. ? Our doors are open. ? We hide nothing and have ? nothing to prove."

The behavior of the two of you in Vance's group, including the "chief", says the opposite.

And you don't seem to notice that this thread is clearly under "Research Needed."

"New age fraud is as much an aggravation to us as it is to anyone who Honors the way of the people."

Glad to hear it. But then why does your "chief" talk like "Blue Otter" Anderson at times? For example, this passage:

http://www.cherokeesofkentucky.org/GreenCorn.htm#Dept.%20of%20Tribal%20Affairs
"the Shift of the Age, Real Human Being, clarity, turmoil and the list goes on, all are part of the leaning process....What is happening is an elevation in the Frequency of everything... As the vibration of the Earth Mother increases, ? the vibration of the Human frequency increases."

Back to your post:
"The reference to the tipi probably came from an advertisement someone posted there without permission, for a gathering she was conducting in KY. ? It had nothing to do with the CKY-C. ? But one of those researchers read that and assumed we had tipis."

Nice try, but you earlier claimed there were no tipis on the site.

"There are some disgruntled people out there who found they could not diminish us through their arrogance and need for attention, and others who were shown the door because of their new age ways. ? These people have nothing better to do than try to discredit, just to make themselves feel more NDN."

Again, nice try. We have no former members of yours in here that I know of, and I don't believe Vance does in his group either. ? If there are any they haven't shown themselves. ?

"We don't play the "redder than thou" game:

Are you kidding? Both your site and the statements of your two members in Vance's group are filled with comments where you overcompensate. You both? denigrate whites in order to feel more NDN, or what you think more NDN is. ?

"If you are looking for New Age groups and plastic shamans, you won't find any here."

You might have better luck if you argued with what I or Vance or any of the other members of his group actually said, rather than what you pretend we said.

I said before you probably do have some members who have ancestry, and no doubt many of you sincrely think you are doing the right thing, while others may just be confised enough to not realize there are other better options. But having an obscure little compound in Kentucky based on Fakelore will not make you part of the Cherokee Nation (meaning all Cherokees, not the CNO.) It's been my experience and Vance's as well that one of the surest signs of a fake tribe is that their members (or at least the leaders) make little effort to win acceptance from the recognized tribes.

If one found out about their distant ancestry as your members have, the best thing to do is go to enrolled people and recognized groups for guidance, learning all you can, not go and set up a little Lord of the Flies fantasy out in the woods.

[obi4240]

Defensive and insulting?  I tried my best to be respectful and truthful. This, after on Vance's list being labeled a cult, before anyone knew anything much about us.  

Yes, I did notice that this is the 'more research' area, and I did my best to answer some of the questions and misconceptions to help with that "research." I will try again.

The letter from the CNO was written in 2001. I did not use the name of the person who wrote it, because I respect his privacy and don't have permission to put his name on the internet. I did, however, state his office, so Dr. Allen can check that out if he wants to, or he can contact me and I will provide the information privately.

Agreed, most of the 300+ groups out there are Cherokee heritage groups.  We are not claiming to be a nation, a tribe - 'band' is the closest word in the English language we can come to.

"It is clearly stated that this event has been suppressed and much misinformation has been disseminated."  is a direct quote from the CNO letter.

"Nothing was ever said anywhere about conducting 'secret ceremonies'"  

Made a liar by your own words.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chickamauga_researcher/message/1588
"What is here would boggle your mind.  You must understand that there are Sacred and Holy things that were put away and kept hidden and you will never find references to them on pages written by the white man, and they are right here in Kentucky."
 
Excuse me, where do you see the reference to secret ceremonies?  I am referring to artifacts and stories handed down through generations, not ceremonies.  My apologies if that wasn't clear.  

You comment on our 'behavior' in Vance's group - where we were ridiculed and called a cult, yet we answered with respect and a genuine attempt to clarify and provide information.

There were also references in Vance's group to things I supposedly said, which were incorrect.  The above 'ceremonies' is an example.  Not requiring Cherokee ancestry was another - no, we aren't open to just anybody.  There were others.

In my last post on Vance's list, I said that in respect for the list, I would not perpetuate an argument because that wasn't the purpose of that list. Vance's response was a very disrespectful something like walks like a cult - smells like a cult - etc.  and then he booted me off the list.  Where is the Honor and Respect in that behavior?  So, we had no opportunity to respond, even if we wanted to.

I still don't know where you think we have tipis, because we have none.  Sure you aren't confusing us with the other bands in KY?  

Concerning "blue otter anderson" - we have no idea who he is.  The clip taken from our site refers to the precession of the equinoxes, the Schumann frequencies, and Ancient prophecies.  Look at scientific sites, not new age sites.  Research electromagnetic fields, pole shifts, and again - look at scientific sites, not new age sites. While you're at it, check out sites concerning sustainable living and permaculture.  I understand you are not Tsalagi, but whether you are aware of it or not, we do have prophecies dealing with the move into the sixth world, just as the Hopi, Navajo, Maya, Lakota, and probably your people do as well.

Concerning our rolls, our tribal members do have ancestry, many enough to enroll in the CNO if they chose.  They CHOOSE not to, for various reasons.    We have Elders who have been raised in the traditional ways and speak the language fluently.  Do you?

Once again, I have no wish to perpetuate an argument, and I don't feel I should have to defend myself against a witch-hunt. I am logged in to NAFPS and this message won't post, so I'm assuming you've blocked my response in some way.

We have provided an invitation to anyone who wants to learn more about us. The truth will stand for itself.

Nogwisi

[VHawkins]

howdy --

I did NOT boot you off that list -- youleft it of your own accord. I know somehting about cults and you sounded like one. I believe oyu left the group before that comment was made so apparently you returned, or had a friend thatreturned.

I have always tried to remain objective, no matter how far fetched . . .

I have looked or several years for evidence of a Yahoo Fals massacre.I wrote an archaeologist of employed by Daniel oone National Forest and he replied i.] no lead shot and no bones haev ever been found on the site. I wrote a local historian in South Central Kentucky who wrote a book on the history of the region, and he said the same -- he researched all newspapers, and other documents finding no evidence at all of a massacre except a book written by a M Collins, a local forester who tried to drum up tourist  trade.

I have searched high and low for any documentation at all as well, and have found  nothing. If you have such documentation please provide it. You have an obligation to everyone interested in this story to put out what proof you have.

Many have made this claim but none have showed it -- I really would love to see it.

thanks --

Vance

[walking-soft]

I have been following the conversation concerning the cky of Burnside ,Ky and find I must speak up as I am Cherokee,Chickamauga. the cky groupie are a disgrace to all my ancestors with not only the ramblings of the so called"chief" and his followers. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. Y ou say you want to go back and live "the old way" yet you practice very non traditional ways, and no to change the old ways to fit todays pace is not nor was it ever the way my ancestors ment it to be. I mean "chief" how do you do traditional naming ceremony over the internet,cherokees had long houses a place for ceremonies,sacred area with spirit fire in the center, the position of clan mothers was a highly honerable position and not tossed out to some one over the internet that you have never met. I believe I read "beloved" in association with one of your followers, and yes you have called yourself a tribe, what about you will receive a tribal card on enrollment??Now I see mr.Edwards from Florida that you have proclaimed Charlie Lame Deer as "uka" Lame Deere "and it is so". I'm confused is he, cherokee,Lakota,Osage,Micmaq, ect. i guess that makes him "full Blood" hey!!! and oh by the way Jerry do you know Dhyani Ywahoo, if I didn't know better I would think she was the one writing you exortations every day. I will tell you this the "REAL HUMAN BEINGS" are aware of you and are all around you, my ancestors are watching you to. I have much more I could expose but I will finish by saying this Jerry to be a "REAL HUMAN BEING" you must be real yourself, as in the traditional way I  Angela, cherokee, a 'true human being" and in honor of my people and those who have crossed  I TURN MY BACK ON YOU!!   Angela

[walking-soft]

One more thing Jerry before I walk away if you are the "chief" why don't you speak instead of letting your wife do so. Let us know Jerry that it is you, put yourcherokee syllabary aside let us hear YOU.

                                                           Angela

[VHawkins]

A couple of more things that alarmed me about yall --

i.]  Do yall make members sell their lands and give the proceeds to you? Have you ever made anyone do this? That is a part of a definition of a "cult".

ii.] I have sought evidence for wild claims about the Chickamauga -- like Europeans of earlier generations sought the holy grail -- many others have done the same. You have an obligation to every descendant of the Chickamauga to show your "proofs" -- if you have any.

If your claims are unfounded you and others like you are the reason so many people are skeptical of the existence of so many undocumented Cherokee.

The truth is the most honorable thing you can seek in ANY religion. Misusing a truth for personal gain is the lowest, in my opinion.

iii.] I believe it was one of your members that replied on my research of history board that if a person of darker skin (paraphrasing) was peeved that white people were running the show -- who cares? So what? This appeared to me to be a very racist remark -- do yall condone such behavior from your members? THIS poster was banned by the way -- after they voluntarily left the group after that stupid remark -- someone called Lobolegends who was afraid to give their real name.

All these things concern me.

Vance

[obi4240]

You know what, there's no point in feeding this feeding frenzy any further.  You all are going to do what you're going to do, and you'll have to procure your own fodder, because you will get no more from us. It's pointless.  Your information is inaccurate, taken out of context, laced with assumption, inuendo, and conjecture - and that serves your purpose.  Truth is not something you are looking for.  As far as Chief Yonv speaking up for himself, I don't ask his permission to Speak. We are Tsalagi.  Anyone who wants to get to know him is welcome to talk with him privately, because in a forum like this, we can see where this goes.
Eligwu!  Enough.

Nogwisi

[raven]

To  all those people in Burnside, well I see history repeating itself. What ever you have dug up and found there, in my book that makes you grave robbers. Once again a prime example of desecration of our ancestors.

[educatedindian]

Gee, aren't we mean mean people. Asking for answers to questions, oh how awful.

It's a shame she decided to shut down and refuse to talk. I for one would really like to hear about their Ywahoo Falls claims, or her new claim they've "shown the door" to plastics.

Just how big is this alleged band? My guess, since they only have three of the seven clans, is that it's under 50 people including kids.

She did admit to me in an email that much of the words on their site are taken straight from Diane Fisher/Dhyani Ywahoo's books. She defends this as "correct" and admits they recommend the books to everyone.

-----
Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:10:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Lobiso" <lobiso@alltel.net>
As far a Dhyani Ywahoo's teachings - yeah, she's actually mostly a Buddhist. He sometimes recommends reading the book only because SOME of the Cherokee historical information is correct. He does not quote her or her beliefs. If you see a similarity somewhere, it's because, as I said above, some of the historical information is correct. The continued reference to us being a cult is offensive, incorrect, and totally bizarre. We actually have quite a revolving door and have shown it to several new agers, wannabe's, pseudo-Indians and oh yes, even a few plastic shamans.
Nogwisi"

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

Its really too bad. Because anything accurate (however small an amount that is) which they could find in Yahoo's books they could also find in any number of other much more respected and correct sources.

What a shame.

I'm glad they aren't claiming to be a nation etc that they want to get back in touch with the culture - but it looks like they don't have a clue.  

[raven]

Uku ? Wouldn't that fall under definition of a priest? What kind of priest? Aztec, Navaho( whoops they have medicine men ) Mayan, Cherokee, Christianity,
African VooDoo? So what kind of priest is Charlie?
If he's not a Cherokee priest , then that would be your plastic man. We don't have priests anymore in the Cherokee Tribe, just a medicine man here and there. Your enemy sits at your council. What you have there is your nemisis, you will see.
He is not your friend he is your enemy, there will come a day when your group is splintered because too many chiefs and not enough braves.
I predict in your future as a band that a battle will take place amongst yourselves because his ego is too big.
There is not too many sites he hasn't gone on. Always searching, looking for something he will not find.
But it looks like he's found the perfect place with your family, good luck.
P.S. Charlie if it don't work in Ky. try New Orleans they need more voo doo priests there

[raven]

So I see the CKY is at it again. Look what we have here, is that your token Indian? MMM. And a map to where your member lives? Does this not constitute exploration? By posting a map of where you members live, do you not think that this exposes them to physical harm? Do you realize the ramification of what you do by exposing on the internet a person's where abouts. I believe this falls under a legal matter and that person needs to find out if they don't know what you are doing, and ? to seek legal advice against your group.
So this is how you treat and love your family.

[walking-soft]

I wander if bluestarwoman knows about this picture if her, she looks native but she must be a wannabe if she is brainwashed by this group. Glad your going to the pow wow I don't live that far from there so see you there jerry, I want to see what a "a real chief" looks like. I sure yiu will stand out most di-ga-li-nv'-hi-dv  do.