Author Topic: E. P. Grondine  (Read 70155 times)

Offline Diana

  • Posts: 437
  • I Love YaBB 2!
E. P. Grondine
« on: June 26, 2015, 04:21:00 am »
Ok E. P. Grondine, here's your genealogy:

This is E.P. Grondine's mothers death record. She is the one he claims his Shawnee ancestry from, he claims 1/8, which would make his mother 1/4. Now that is some significant Indian blood. And would make his grandmother 1/2. Wow! And they are all from Old Town Maryland....there is no Shawnee Old town. 

Rose Adams Grondine in the Virginia, Death Records, 1912-2014
 
Record Image Index-only record
 
Name:
Rose Adams Grondine

Gender:
Female

Race:
White


Age at Death:
85

Birth Date:
abt 1913

Death Date:
22 Jul 1998

Death Place:
Orange, Virginia, USA

Rose W Adams in the 1920 United States Federal Census  

Name:
Rose W Adams

Age:
8

Birth Year:
abt 1912

Birthplace:
Maryland

Home in 1920:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland


Race:
White


Gender:
Female

Relation to Head of House:
Daughter (Child)

Marital Status:
Single

Father's name:
Charles P Adams

Father's Birthplace:
Maryland

Mother's name:
Birtha E Adams


Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland

Able to Speak English:
Yes

Attended School:
Yes

Now here is E.P. Grondines Grandmother Bertha E. Twigg. Just to refresh everyone's memory E.P. Grondine freely and happily provided us with this information.  Everybody is WHITE.

   
Bertha E Twigg in the 1900 United States Federal Census
 


Name:
Bertha E Twigg

Age:
19

Birth Date:
Feb 1881

Birthplace:
Maryland

Home in 1900:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland

Race:
White


Gender:
Female

Relation to Head of House:
Daughter (Child)

Marital Status:
Single

Father's name:
Charles Twigg

Father's Birthplace:
Maryland

Mother's name:
Hanah C Twigg

Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland

Occupation:
View on Image

Neighbors:
 View others on page

Household Members:


Name

Age


 Charles Twigg  58
 Hanah C Twigg  38
 Bertha E Twigg  19

 
Diana

[Thread title modified at Diana's request. No change to message text.]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 12:50:38 am by educatedindian »

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 401
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 04:37:53 pm »
PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE WORKS BY E.P. GRONDINE

OS1 Lunar
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/os1lunar.htm

POLYUS
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm

MIR 2
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/miralyut.htm

CHINESE MANNED SPACE PROGRAM: BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/chidoors.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tsie1978.htm

LUNAR VARIANT KLIPER
http://www.astronautix.com/gallery/ckliper.htm

CHINA'S MOON PROJECT:
http://www.friends-partners.org/pipermail/fpspace/2006-May/019800.html

CAMBRIDGE CONFERENCE, 1998 - 2003

MAJOR HISTORICAL WORKS

2000
Everything is Connected:
A survey of Man and impact in SE North America
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce090400.html

2001
Going Into the Water:
A survey of Man and impact
in the Eastern North American coastal zone and Caribbean
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce010702.html

2002
Impact And The End Of The Roman Empire In The West
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce082202.html

SHORTER HISTORICAL ESSAYS AND NOTES
1997
Benny Peiser's initial catalogue of Holocene impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc052898.html

1998-2002
On the Joshua impact event
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032098.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032598.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc033098.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012102.html
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021202.html

1998
On the destruction of the Etruscan city of Volsinii by impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc043098.html

On the effects of blast waves
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc071098.html

An Impact Event Recorded In Ainu Folklore
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc102898.html

1999
The Song Of Ullikummi, a Hurrian account of the Tel Leilan impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012099.html

Note on Karen Reiter's "Die Metalle im Alten Orient":
An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020999.html

Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031500.html

2000
Short note on sub-Roman impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042600.html

Updated Catalogue of Known and Suspected Historical impacts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc070202.html

2001
Legends of a major South American impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032601.html

Comparison of work done at Tunguska, Barringer Crater, and Rio Cuarto
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc082301.html

2002
Worknotes On Man In The Ancient Near East And Impact Events
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc041702.html

Background On The Kaali Lake Impact Event 
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062402.html

2003
The Egyptian Book of the Celestial Cow
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce102103.html

REPORTAGE, 1997-2003
1997
On JPL's failure to mention impact craters on Mars
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111497.html

1998
Review of "Deep Impact"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042098.html

Coverage of House Space Subcommittee hearing on NASA and the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc052898.html
Miscellaneous items, including report on first US NEO defense system
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061198.html

Don Yeoman's presentation at a Congressional luncheon
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062298.html

Eleanor Helin named to Technology Hall of Fame
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc062698.html

On the establishment of NASA's NEO office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050598.html

Interview with Wesley Huntress
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050898.html

On NASA Administrator Dan Goldin's strategic plan for NASA and his
views on dealing with the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc091598.html

On the Space Frontier Foundation's views on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100798.html

The Deep Space 1 Briefing,
and beginning of Newt Gingrich's attack on ISS
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100198.htm

More on Newt Gingrich's attack
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100298.html

Short interview with NASA Administrator Dan Goldin on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100898.html

The NEAR Briefing, and a Short Chat With Don Yeomans
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc122198.html

1999
The Problem Of Back Contamination From An Operational Perspective:
An interview with John Rummel
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html

On the Space Frontier Foundation Forming the "Watch" Committee
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011399.html

Budget for NASA NEO office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020499.html

On Russian work on the back contamination problem
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011199.html

Interview with John Rummel of NASA's Planetary Protection Office
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021299.html

ASTEROIDS, COMETS, METEORS & LOST LUGGAGE:
COVERAGE OF THE 1999 ASTEROIDS, COMETS, AND METEORS CONFERENCE
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ccemenu.html

2000
REPORT FROM THE AMERICAN ASTRONAUTICAL SOCIETY'S
38th GODDARD MEMORIAL SYMPOSIUM
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc040400.html

On oil deposits and impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc060600.html

Interview with Colin Hicks on government response to
the UK NEO Taskforce report
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111600.html

2001
An improved English translation of
THE RUSSIAN POSITION PAPER ON PLANETARY DEFENSE
by Anatoly V. Zaitsev
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020701.html

Press Conference on Becker Team's development of test for impact
fullerenes (and the loss of my Mercedes Benz)
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031301.html

First interview with Ed Weiler
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050201.html

Viking At 25: Report On The Symposium On Mars Exploration
With important observations on public support for manned Mars flight,
And interviews with James Garvin and Mike Malin
on the state of Martian crater counts
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc072101.html

Interview with Colin Hicks
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc111301.htm

2002
Dazed And Confused:
In Search Of Us Policies For Dealing With The Impact Hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce021102.html

SLI downselect and interview with Ed Weiler
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc050702.html

CONTOUR briefing
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061702.html

On interplanetary blast waves from Shoemaker Levy 9 impact
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092602.html

Workshop for Mitigating the Effects of Public Concern on the NASA
Bureaucracy: Two Days in Washington, 2002
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce091702.html

The NASA Bureaucrats' New Efforts To Try And Sandbag The Neo Problem
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100102.html

Report on Congressional hearing on the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc100802.html

2003
On the Challenger O-Ring failure
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020503.html

COMMENTARY, 1998-2002
1998
On relations between the MPC and NASA
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc040898.html

On relations between the MPC and NASA
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc061598.html

On the Washington Post's coverage of the NEO hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc042298.html

2000
On JPL's estimates of the impact hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011700.html

On General Pete Worden's proposals
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020800.html

Need for funding of historical research
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032000.html

On the UK NEO Taskforce report
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092600.html

2001
Suggestion to use video-conferencing
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031201.html

2002
On the Australian Governments refusal to fund a NEO observatory
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032502.html

Call for more money for historical impact search
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc051402.html

SATIRE, 1998-2002
1998
"Armageddon" versus "Deep Impact"
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc070698.html

Dale Carnegie Method versus Scientific Method
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc072198.html

2000
On the effects of Pissing on the Sphinx
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012600.html

Live From The House Of Commons
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc092100.html

2001
Clarification Of The Government's Response, For Speakers
Of English As A Second Language
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc022601.html

2002
Human Sacrifice as an
An Extremely Low Cost Approach To Dealing With The Neo Hazard
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc011502.html

My Campaign to be Elected Chairman of the IAU NEO Working Group
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc071802.html

Really Big News: Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 Hits Jupiter
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc112602.html

I never said I was Indian.
I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) Shawnee descent.
Keep on cc0oming...

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 401
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 05:01:53 pm »
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3277&p=68210&hilit=fleet#p68210

1586 SHAWNEE -
KISHPOKOTHA ON THE ROANOKE RIVER?

...This is improbable, however, as the Chowanocks lived in what
was then Virginia in the days of Captain John Smith, and are mentioned
by him under that name in his General History of Virginia.

They are first referred to in 1586 by Master Ralph Lane, com-
mander-in-chief of Sir Walter Raleigh's colony on Roanoke Island, sent
out from England in the preceding year. Lane states that, "to the north-
west the farthest place of our discovery was to Chawanock, distant from
Roanoke about 130 [?] miles." "Chawanock itself", he adds, "is the
greatest province and seigniorie lying upon that River [the Chowan]; and the
very town itself is able to put 700 fighting men into the field, besides the
force of the province itself. " The town of Chawanock' is shown on John
White's map of 1586, [BUT NOT AT 130 MILES FROM ROANOKE]

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... 3&partid=1

...

1632 SHAWNEE - TSAWIGHELI (Sewekily, Hathawakhila)

Captain Henry Fleet, one of the later Jamestown settlers, who had
been captured by the Nacostine [on the Anacostia River at the mouth of Oxon Run]
Indians on the Potomac River in 1621 and remained among them as a prisoner for
several years, after his return to England, made a number of trading
voyages to the Chesapeake Bay, and carried back cargoes of furs.
He was there in 1632, and sailed up the Potomac River to the head of
navigation [Great Falls].

In his Journal Fleet states, that "the Emperor [of the Powhatans?] is fearful
to punish the Nacostines [Anacostia], because they are protected by the MASSOMACKS
[MASSAWOMEKS ABOVE], or Cannyda [Canada?, or Conestoga?] Indians, who have used to convey all such English truck as comes into the [Potomac] River to the MASSOMACKS...
I find that the Indians of that populous place [the Massomack country] are governed
by four kings,whose towns are of several names, TONHOGA, MOSTICUM, SHAUNETOWA,
and USSERAHAK, reported above 30,000 [later math by Fleet based on 30 towns x 1000 inhabitants per town] persons, and that they have palisades about the towns, made with great trees, and with scaffolds upon the walls."

1632 FLEET'S ACCOUNT
(Fleet's Journal via Neill's Founders of Maryland, Albany, 1876)

[A rival had cleared out the beaver Fleet had ordered on the Potomac River. Fleet is at Anacostia when he meets the Massomack interpreter.}

"The 13th of June I had some conference with an interpreter of Massomack and of divers other Indians that had been lately with them, whose relation was very strange in regard of the abundance of people there, compared to all the other poor number of natives which are in Patomack and places adjacent, where are not above five thousand persons, and also of the infinite store of beaver they use in coats. Diverse were the imaginations that I did conceive about this discovery, and understanding that the river was not for shipping, where the[se] people were, not yet for boats to pass, but for canoes only. I found all my neighbor Indians to be against my design, the Pascattowies having had a great slaughter formerly by them to the number of one thousand persons in my time.

"They coming in their birchen canoes did seek to withdraw me from having any commerce with the other Indians; and the Nacostines were earnest in the matter, because they knew that our trade might hinder their benefit. Yet I endeavored to prosecute my trade with them nevertheless, and therefore made choice of two trusty Indians to be sent along with my brother, who could travel well.

"I find the Indians of that populous place are governed by four kings, whose towns are of several names, Tonhogao, Mosticum, Shaunetowa, and Usserahak, reported above thirty thousand persons, and that they have palisades about the towns made with great trees, and with scaffolds upon the walls. Unto these four kings, I sent four presents in beads, bells, hatchets, knives, and coats, to the value of ~8 sterling. The 14th of June they set forth, and I entreated them to bring these Indians down to the water to the Falls, where they should find me with the ship.

"On Monday, the 25th of June, we set sail for the town of Tohoga [Tonhogao above], when we came to an anchor two leagues short of the Falls [Great Falls], being in the latitude of 41, on the 26th of June. This place without all question is the most pleasant and healthful place in all this country, and most convenient for habitation, the air temperate in summer and not violent in winter. It abounds with all manner of fish. The Indians in one night commonly will catch thirty sturgeons in a place where the river is not above twelve fathom broad. And as for deer, BUFFALOS, bears, turkeys, the woods do swarm with them, and the soil is exceedingly fertile, but above this place the country is rocky and mountainous like Canada.
{BUFFALO PATHS AVAILABLE FOR LAND TRANSIT.]

"The 27th of June I manned my shallop, and went up with the flood, the tide rising about four feet in height at this place. We had not rowed above three miles, but we might hear the Falls to roar about six miles distant, by which it appears that the river is separated with rocks, but only in that one place, for beyond is a fair river.

"The 8d of July, my brother, with the two Indians, came thither, IN WHICH JOURNEY THEY WERE SEVEN DAYS GOING, AND FIVE DAYS COMING BACK TO THIS PLACE. THEY ALL DID AFFIRM THAT IN ONE PALISADO, AND THAT BEING THE LAST OF THIRTY, THERE WERE THREE HUNDRED HOUSES, AND IN EVERY HOUSE FORTY SKINS AT LEAST, IN BUNDLES AND PILES.

[BASED ON THESE TRAVEL TIMES, WHILE THE VILLAGE OF "TIOGA" COULD HAVE BEEN AT ANTEITAM, HARPER'S FERRY, OR PAWPAW, WEST VIRGINIA, BUT THE SITE OF SHAWNEE OLDTOWN, MARYLAND SEEMS MOST LIKELY.]

"To this king was delivered the four presents, who dispersed them to the rest. The entertainment they had I omit as tedious to relate. There came with them, one-half of the way, one hundred and ten Indians, laden with beaver, which could not be less than 4000 weight. These Indians were made choice of by the whole nation, to see what we were, what was our intent, and whether friends or foes, and what commodities we had, but they were met with by the way by the Nacostines, who told them we purposed to destroy those that came in our way, in revenge of the Pascattowaies, being hired to do so for 114 skins, which were delivered aforesaid, for a present, as a preparative.

"But see the inventions of devils: the life of my brother, by this tale of the Nacostines, was much endangered. The next morning I went to the Nacostines to know the reason of this business, who answered, they did know no otherwise, but that if I would make a firm league with them, and give their king a present, then they would undertake to bring those other Indians down. The refusal of this offer was the greatest folly that I have ever committed, in mine opinion. "

"The 10th of July, about one o'clock we discerned an Indian on the other side of the river, who with a shrill sound, cried, "Quo! Quo! Quo!" holding up a beaver skin upon a pole. I went ashore to him, who then gave me the beaver skin, with his hatchet, and laid down his head with a strange kind of behavior, using some few words, which I [later] learned, but to me [then] it was a foreign language. I cheered him, told him he was a good man, and clapped him on the breast with my hands. Whereupon he started up, and used some complimental speech, leaving his things with me ran up the hill.

"Within the space of half an hour, he returned, with five more, one being a woman, and AN INTERPRETER [was this the woman?], at which I rejoiced, and so I expressed myself to them, showing them courtesies. These were laden with beaver, and CAME FROM A TOWN CALLED USSERAHAK, WHERE WERE SEVEN THOUSAND INDIANS. I carried these Indians aboard, and traded with them for their skins.

[FLEET'S BROTHER ARRIVED IN TOHOGA AROUND 20 JUNE, AND FLEET'S PRESENTS WERE DISTRIBUTED FROM THERE. THE TRAVEL TIME DOWN THE POTOMAC RIVER FROM TOHOGA WAS 5 DAYS, SO FROM TOHOGA (OLDTOWN MARYLAND?) TO USSERAHAK AND BACK TO GREAT FALLS HAD TO BE WITHIN A TRAVEL TIME OF 15 DAYS.]

"THEY DREW A PLOT OF THEIR COUNTRY, and told me there came with them sixty canoes, but were interrupted by the Nacostines, who always do wait for them, and were hindered by them. Yet these, it would seem, were resolute, not fearing death, and would adventure to come down. These promised, [that] if I would show them my truck, to get great store of canoes to come down with one thousand Indians that should trade with me. I had but little, not worth above one hundred pound sterling, and such as was not fit for these Indians to trade with, WHO DELIGHT IN HATCHETS, AND KNIVES OF LARGE SIZE, BROAD-CLOTH, AND COATS, SHIRTS, AND SCOTTISH STOCKINGS. The women desire bells, and some kind of beads.'

[THESE TRADE GOODS HAD TO HAVE COME FROM EITHER THE CAROLINA ENGLISH, THE FLORIDA SPANISH, THE CANADIAN FRENCH, OR THE DUTCH OF NEW AMSTERDAM]

"The 11th of July there came from another place seven lusty men, with strange attire; they had red fringe, and two of them had beaver coats, which they gave me. Their language was haughty, and they seemed to ask me what I did there, and demanded to see my truck, which, upon view, they scorned. They had two axes, such as Captain Kirk traded in Canada, which he bought at Whits of Wapping, and there I bought mine, and think I had as good as he.

"But these Indians, after they came aboard, seemed to be fair conditioned, and ONE OF THEM, TAKING A PIECE OF CHALK, MADE A PLAIN DEMONSTRATION OF THEIR COUNTRY, WHICH WAS NOTHING DIFFERENT FROM THE FORMER PLOT DRAWN BY THE OTHER INDIANS [THOSE FROM USSERAHAK]. THESE CALLED THEMSELVES MOSTIKUMS,[MUSKINGHUMS] BUT AFTERWARDS I FOUND THEY WERE OF A PEOPLE THREE DAYS' JOURNEY FROM THESE, AND WERE CALLED HERECKEENES, WHO, WITH THEIR OWN BEAVER, AND WHAT THEY GET OF THOSE THAT DO ADJOIN UPON THEM, DO DRIVE A TRADE IN CANADA, AT THE PLANTATION, WHICH IS FIFTEEN DAYS' JOURNEY FROM THIS PLACE. These people delight not in toys, but in useful commodities.

[THESE TWO MAPS MISSING NOW]

[NOTE WELL - IT APPEARS THAT EITHER THE PISCATWAY OR ANACOSTIA ALERTED THE FIVE NATIONS, OR ELSE THE ERIE LEARNED OF FLEET'S VISIT VIA "TOHOGA". WHOEVER THE "HERECKEENES" WERE, THEY LIVED THREE DAYS FROM THE MUSKINGUM RIVER, AND THEY WERE CLAIMING TITLE TO THE MUSKINGUM RIVER IN 1632, WELL BEFORE THE USUALLY GIVEN START OF THE "BEAVER WARS".]

"There was one William Elderton very desirous to go with them, but being cannibals I advised him rather to go with the others, whither I had sent a present, telling him they had no good intentions, yet upon his earnest entreaty, though unwilling, I licensed him to proceed, and sent a present with him to their king, one of them affirming that they were a people of one of the four aforenamed nations. But I advised my man to carry no truck along, lest it might be a means to endanger his life. Nevertheless, as I was afterwards informed, he carried a coat, and other things to the value of ten shillings more, and on the 14th of July departed.

"The 15th of July the [Tohoga] Indians were returned with the interpreter, according to promise, and, being come, looked about for William [Elderton] our interpreter, to whom I made relation whither he was gone, and they seemed to lament for him, as if he were lost, saying, that the men with whom he went would eat him, that these people were not their friends, but that they were HERECHEENES.

At the departure of these Indians [the Herecheenes], they told me that two hundred Indians were come to the place from whence they came with store of English truck to trade for beaver, and told us they had a purpose to come down and visit us, and take a view of our commodities, and they inquired after divers kinds of commodities, of which I had some very good, part of which I gave them, and sent them away, desiring them to follow after the other Indians, and to get away my man. All this time did my truck spend not so much upon beaver as upon victuals, having nothing but what we bought of the Indians, of whom we had fish, beans, and boiled corn. The seamen, nevertheless. hoped to sell away all their clothes for beaver.

The 18th of July I went to the Pascattowaies, and there excused myself for trading with those who were [their] enemies, and from thence I hired sixteen Indians, and brought them to the ship, and made one of them my merchant, and delivered to them, equally divided, the best part of my truck, which they carried up for me to trade with their countrymen; and I gave charge to the factor to find out my man, and to bring him along with them when they came back.

[PISCATOWAY AT OCCOQUAN AND/OR MARSHALL HALL AT THIS TIME. THEIR MIGRATION APPEARS TO HAVE OCCURRED IN 1609, SPARKING A MOSSAWOMEK ATTACK.]

"The 7th of August these Indians returned, and the TOHOGAES sent me eighty skins with the truck again, who showed these Indians great packs of beaver, saying there were nine hundred of them coming down by winter, after they had received assurance of our love by the USSERAHAKS, although the Nacostines had much labored the contrary.

[NOTE TRAVEL TIME TO TOHOGA AND BACK: 15 JULY-7 AUGUST. TOHOGAES MADE OFFER BY SENDING FURS BACK WITH GOODS.]

"And yet they were all at a stand for a time, by reason of two rumors that had raised, the one, that I had no good truck, neither for quantity, nor for quality; the other that one of our men was slain by the Hirechenes, three days' journey beyond them, and that they [the Herechenes] had beguiled us with the name of MOSTICUMS, ONE OF THEIR CONFEDERATE NATIONS. Nevertheless, they being desirous to have some trial of us, had sent us these skins, minding to have an answer whether we would be so satisfied of this deceit or no, and that THEY WOULD COME ALL FOUR NATIONS and trade with us upon their guard.

"I liked this motion very well, but was unwilling to protract time, because I had but little victuals, and small store of trucking stuff, and therefore I sailed down to Pascattowie, and so to a town on this side of it called Moyumpse. Here came [the] THREE CANNIBALS OF USSERAHAK, TOHOGA, AND MOSTICUM; THESE USED MANY COMPLIMENTING SPEECHES AND RUDE ORATIONS, SHOWING THAT THEY DESIRED US TO STAY FIFTEEN DAYS, AND THEY WOULD COME WITH A GREAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT SHOULD TRADE WITH US AS FORMERLY THEY HAD SPOKEN. I gave them all courteous entertainment, and so sent them back again.

[THE ANACOSTIA HAD ACCUSED THE MASSOWEKS OF CANNIBALISM AND HOSTILITY.]

[THE REPRESENTATIVE FROM MOSTICUM ARRIVED 7 AUGUST; ASSUMING PRESENTS DISTRIBUTED FROM TOHOGA JUNE 20, 17 DAYS LATER. LESS THE 5 DAY CANEO TRIP FROM TOHOGA TO GREAT FALLS, MOSTICUM [MUSKINGUM] HAD TO BE WITHIN A 12 DAY ROUNDTRIP JOURNEY FROM TOHOGA.]

[THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM "SHAUNETOWA" WERE EXPECTED TO ARRIVE AROUND 21 AUGUST. ASSUMING PRESENTS DISTRIBUTED FROM TOHOGA JUNE 20, THAT IS 30 DAYS TRAVEL; LESS THE 5 DAY CANOE LEG DOWN THE POTOMAC, "SHAUNEETOWA" WAS 25 DAYS ROUNDTRIP FROM TOHOGA [OLDTOWN MARYLAND].

"TOHOA" - possibly cognate with "ford";

Gatschet, The Massawomeks, American Antiquarian, July, 1881, citing Margry:

"The following passages may also be adduced from Pierre Margry, De'couvertes, vol. I:

"they (the Sonnontouans) [Seneca], were told that we came from Onnontio
(the French Governor), to see the tribes called by them Toagenha, living
on the river Ohio, and that we requested them to furnish us a slave, as
a guide to these parts." (p. 130.)

"A prisoner, said to be of the Toaguenhas, spoke Algonkin, but his dialect
differed more from the good Algonkin than that of the Outaouacs [Ottowa]." (pp. 133-134.)

"The Soimontouans [Seneca] told our Dutch interpreter that he was
a fool to act as our guide to the Toaguenha, who were very dangerous
people, and would certainly assail us at night, after lurking
around our camp-fires; that we would run the danger of meeting
the Antastoes along the Ohio River [Andastes of Susquehanna River on Alleghenny],
who would most certainly "break our heads," and that on this account the Sonnontouans
declined to come with us, lest the extermination of the French
may be imputed to them. The distance from their town to
Ohio River was unanimously stated to be six days' land travel of
twelve leagues each day but if we travelled by water on Lake
Erie, we could reach the Ohio by three days' portages (pp. 137-
138). Report of one of La Salle's travels by the Abbe de
Gallinee, 1669-1670.

"To the name Tonhoga we may also compare that of the Tohoa-irough-roonan,
who lived within or north of the Alleghany ridge, perhaps in West Virginia,
and whom the Iroquois claimed to have conquered (Treaty of Lancaster, 1744).
....

Hanna: In an interesting article on these passages in Fleet's Journal, Mr.
Albert S. Gatschet suggests the similarity of the name of one of the
Massomack towns, Tonhoga, with Tongoria, Colden's name for the Eries;
and with TOUGUENHA, the name of that tribe of whom THE SENECAS TOLD
LA SALLE IN 1669, THAT THEY LIVED ON THE OHIO RIVER, and of whom GALLINEE
STATES THAT THEY SPOKE A CORRUPT ALGONQUIN, MEANING, PROBABLY, THE
TRIBE OF THE SHAWNEES. The Skauneiawa town of the Massomacks^
Gatschet identifies with Sonnoniouan, or Senecaa. Gatschet thought
the seven days' journey of Edward Fleet and his Indian guides was
toward the country of the Massomacks. This is rather doubtful.
[Hanna was wrong there. 7 days from Great Falls up the Potomac River was
Shawnee Oldtown, Maryland, but not to Kittianing.]
........

"MOSTICUM" - Muskingum [shawnee "mos-ke-quie"="large ponds, or small lakes"]

"USSERAHAK" - 7,000 inhabitants; Charlestown, W. Va.- Marietta?

"SHAUNETOWA" - could mean either "Shawnee Prarie" or "Shawnee Town" - either Portsmouth,
Circleville, or The Scioto [shawnee "scioto"="pretty"] River Prarie

....
There is, in the Relation of the Abbe Galinee (1669-70), as given by
Margry, another statement that refers to the Shawnees, and indicates
the locality of a part of the tribe at that time. Speaking of the com-
mencement of La Salle's journey to the southwest, and the reason for
it, Galinee writes:

"Our fleet consisted of seven canoes, each with three men,
which departed from Montreal the sixth day of July, 1669, under
the guidance of two canoes of Iroquois Sonnontoueronons (Senecas), who
had come to Montreal in the autumn of the year 1668 to do their hunting
and trading.

These people, while here, had stayed quite a long time at M. de la Salle's,
and had told him so many marvels of the Ohio River,
with which they said they were thoroughly acquainted, that they inflamed
in him more than ever the desire to go to see it. They told him that
this river took its rise three days' journey from Sonnontouan
[Seneca - this start was most likely on the Aleghenny River], and that
after a month's travel one came upon the Honniasontkeronons [Hanna suggests that these are Piedmont Siouxian, v2p120; Lenape?] and the CHIOUANONS, and, that after having passed the latter, and a great cataract or water-fall that there is in this river [Falls of the Ohio - later Louisville?], one found the Outagame [Wea] and the country of the Iskousogos [Ch'Iskousogos = Chicago's? of the Illinois River - Known to Illini as the "Piase" after their national symbol, the Misi Piase. It appears the Five Nations traveled by canoe to Lake Michigan, and proceeded south from it southern point via the "Chicago" to the Chicagos, and also via the Iroquois River to the Wea.].

In his Migration Legend of the Creek Indians, Gatschet describes two of these
[Shawneee] towns among the Creeks under the name of Sawokli and Sawanogi (pp. 142-43).

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
keep on coming, Diana..


     

Epiphany

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 05:43:32 pm »
Concerning Oldtown, Maryland: a book History of Cumberland, (Maryland) from the Time of the Indian Town, Caiuctucuc, in 1728, Up to the Present Day published in 1878 states that "a century ago" the Oldtown settlement was called "Shawanese Oldtown" , eventually becoming only "Oldtown".

https://books.google.com/books?id=8dhAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=shawanese+old+town+maryland&source=bl&ots=KzEQB21Dlg&sig=AO0697dmBmnBIaiu3cX4UFEycVg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RW-NVZbjOZPSoATa57rAAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=shawanese%20old%20town%20maryland&f=false

Quote
In 1741 Thomas Cresap established a trading post at the abandoned village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldtown,_Maryland

So we are back well before 1741 at this point.

So descendants of residents of Oldtown, Maryland cannot accurately claim NDN heritage (that they claim only because of that specific residence).

Concerning what information was collected for various census: for instance in 1920:

Quote
Color or race

Enumerators were to enter "W" for White, "B" for Black, "Mu" for mulatto, "Ch" for Chinese, "Jp" for Japanese, "In" for American Indian, or "Ot" for other races.

https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/1920_1.html

As Diana has already shown, the Adams and Twigg families were listed as white in 1920 and 1900 census. White in census that instructed census enumerators to list Indian if that is what they found. White in an area that was considered an abandoned village in 1741 when a trading post was established.

E.P. Grondine, telling us about history of the area from 1586 to 1670 in no way proves anything about your family, it certainly does not prove your claim of 1/8.



Epiphany

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 05:58:14 pm »
Quote
I never said I was Indian.
I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) Shawnee descent.
Keep on cc0oming...

Quote from Grondine earlier in thread.

From 2011:

Quote
You ask a simple question as to my Shawnee ancestry. The simple answer is that it appears to have come from Bent Twigg of (Shawnee) Oldtown, Maryland.
There is no doubt that my division is Sewighili, now called Thawagili.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3180.msg28830#msg28830

"appears to have come from" does not = fact

Diana's work stands. As does Ben Barnes' offer:

Quote
So, if your 1/8th, Great grandma was a Full Blood! That is easy to track down! We will even help! What was her name. We will either find her, or publish the truth.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4536.msg40515#msg40515

Epiphany

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 06:09:12 pm »
A clarification of this:

Quote
So descendants of residents of Oldtown, Maryland cannot accurately claim NDN heritage (that they claim only because of that specific residence).


If I had people from Oldtown Maryland, counted in the 1900 and 1920 census as white, who did not marry NDNS, who were not part of a living NDN (including Shawnee) culture - I would not claim I was 1/8 Shawnee based on my people being from Oldtown. Residence would not be enough evidence. Family stories would not be enough evidence. Me claiming that I am 1/8 Shawnee would not be enough evidence.

If I found evidence that I had distant NDN heritage, that is what I would say, that the heritage was distant. Distant heritage would not give me the right to hold forth as a supposed expert.

Epiphany

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 07:13:20 pm »
So some questions to Grondine from elsewhere:

What type of DNA test did you take? Who says you are 1/8 Shawnee? You mentioned your mother, did your mother claim Shawnee heritage?

Offline Diana

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 07:55:29 pm »
@E P Grondine,  I just skimmed over some of your so called journalistic writing and just to let you know BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. I don't have a lot of time this afternoon but will respond later tonight, hopefully.


Diana

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 08:59:07 pm »
As Diana has already shown, the Adams and Twigg families were listed as white in 1920 and 1900 census. White in census that instructed census enumerators to list Indian if that is what they found. White in an area that was considered an abandoned village in 1741 when a trading post was established.

The census workers would never mark a full-blood NDN person as "white." They went by what someone looked like, and they were not looking to help people pass. Fullbloods do not look white. If she looked NDN but didn't want to be recorded as such, and lied, she may have been marked "mulatto", "black" or even Asian by the census-taker, but not white.

I see a mention of DNA. DNA cannot tell someone they have a percentage of Shawnee blood. I've done some work with DNA and there are not enough Shawnee in any of the DNA databases to indicate a Shawnee match. Further, there are not enough NDNs, period, in the databases to make accurate BQ counts. No currently-existing database can confirm an ancestor from a specific tribe.

Autumn

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT INDIAN NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 09:04:12 pm »
@E P Grondine,  I just skimmed over some of your so called journalistic writing and just to let you know BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. I don't have a lot of time this afternoon but will respond later tonight, hopefully.


Diana

Ah, but they call it "citizen journalism" now.   :) :)

As one person pointed out (paraphrasing from something I heard on the radio):  "I would put as much faith in a "citizen journalist" as I would a "citizen surgeon".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_journalism


Offline Diana

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2015, 04:03:04 am »
@E P Grondine,  ok lets review, we have established that you're not Shawnee you are white and fyi Shawnees are Indians. And if you're still confused about what a Shawnee Indian is please ask Chief Ben Barns to explain things to you,  I'm sure he wouldn't mind.  Also just to clear up any other confusion BLOGGING IS NOT JOURNALISM. Soooo, just keep it coming. Lol.


Diana

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2015, 04:03:39 pm »
Hi Diana -

Be sure to tell Keith Cowing at Nasawatch and Leonard David and the other reporters at space.com that using the interenet to distribute news is not "reporting". Just because I was among the first, using the internet to report to what was then the narrow group of specialists in asteroid and comet impact, does not reduce me. By the way, they're were no "bloggers" when I started doing this.

I also reported for print publications from about 1985-6 on, turning to asteroid and comet impact reporting in 1997.

I also should mention to you that the memories of impact held by Native American peoples are largely dismissed as fantasies by European historians and used to belittle, diminish, and dismiss their histories. And that many peoples remembered where they were when these things hit, which has a lot of implications as regards the implementation of NAGPRA.

Hi Piff -

Given the Ohio Historical Society's continued efforts to remove the Shanwee from Ohio's history, this report from Fleet is important. While the information on the Five Nation's attacks on the Shawnee living then in Ohio is widely available, the Ohio Historical Society continues to promote the myth of the "Wandering Shawnee".

Cresap was a real SOB, who later moved to what is today known as Brownsville, Pennsylvania, one of the site's of my ancestors' division's ceremonial centers.

While the flats in Shawnee Oldtown were abandoned, the "hollers" were not.
I am amazed by and enjoy reading about my Native ancestors' resistance and survival.

You will probably enjoy reading the materials about Martin Chartier and Peter Chartier which are easily available online. Also Charles Augustus Hannah's rare book "The Wilderness Road" available for free via google books. I really like the part where Pennsylvania colonists and Virginia colonists fight for Ohio.

Since my father's family history and genetic load is well documented,while Mom's side has no written records that I know of, only what was spoken about in the family, I have repeatedly stated that I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) division Shawnee descent.

Since other people of "distant" ancestry have provided fodder for various mischief, the only way I can see of preventing this would be for the Shawnee National Organization to form a Shawnee National Ancestry Association. That would prevent these various groups from forming. The current members of such groups would leave them to join such an organization.

I think that other nations will face this problem in the future. The Shawnee and Cherokee just face it now because they were among the first peoples to be conquered and generate "distant ancestors"

If full tribal members look at the inter-marriage occuring, and the adoption of strange beliefs, and then consider what will happen in the next generation out, perhaps they will understand why I think what I think about this.

I hope that the leaders of the US Shawnee "bands" will not forget about the Shawnee living in refuge among the Kettle Point Ojibwe, and will support them in their efforts to gain separate Canadian federal recognition.


Epiphany

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2015, 07:34:06 pm »
Since my father's family history and genetic load is well documented,while Mom's side has no written records that I know of, only what was spoken about in the family, I have repeatedly stated that I am of 1/8 Thawagili (modern spelling) division Shawnee descent.

E.P., you are incorrect here, your mother's side of the family does have written records. Diana has laid out quite a few of the relevant ones here already.

Stating repeatedly that you are 1/8 Shawnee descent does not make it so.

From what you have written here, we can assume that what you do have are family stories. Individual family stories alone do not make for fact.



Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2015, 03:07:36 pm »
Hi Piff -

You are very correct that individual family stories do not make it so - I hear them all of the time. Often descent from "Cherokee" is claimed in the East, while "Blackfoot" descent is claimed in the midwest. I give these people the diabetes warning and point them to good genealogists.

I also went back to Oldtown Days and asked other Twigg descendents.

One family graveyard is located at Ft Ashby, the other in a "holler".

The firm that I used at that time (2006) was the best I knew of, then located in Tampa.

Several years ago, having reached a certain age,  two of my cousins began working on their own genealogies, and asked for copies of a notarized copy of a page from a family bible - they likely have much more information now. I suppose it is a very good time to give them a call.

As to Thawaghili survival past Cresap, you will probably enjoy reading about General Washington's problems at Fort Cumberland.

Given my ancestors ingenuity in surviving the conquest, I would not be too surprised at finding that they hired one of their own to do the census taking.
I have no idea when the federal government began them.
[:o;).]

I hope that my answers so far have satisfied everyone that I was a space journalist - my stroke in 2005 and diabetes ended that, and set me on a new path.

It is now difficult for me to type, and well that most of your questions concern  materials I was working on at the time of my stroke, and located in parts of my brain not destroyed by it. 

Offline Diana

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Re: E. P. GRONDINE IS NOT SHAWNEE NOR IS HE A JOURNALIST.
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2015, 06:14:22 pm »
@E P Grondine,   you are a bald face liar and are utterly full B.S. Not only do you make outrageous claims of being a journalist you also claimed to be a historian. Did you think we wouldn't do a thorough job of investigating you?? Hmm...it's funny how you've  never mentioned Twigg Town. Which  By the way is about a stone's throw from Old Town. Just to let everyone know Twigg Town is E P Grondine's family's home town. The town was literally named after his ancestors and is still there today. You can go to Twiggtown.org or just Google Twigg Town Maryland and a plethora of Twigg Town info will come up. Very impressive. The town was actually started in the 1600's wow! And the Twigg family has posted their genealogy all the way back to the 1600's.

One more thing EP, posting on an INTRA OFFICE WEBSITE is not journalism. I used to work in the middle of Silicon Valley my office also had an intra office website. It was used for  informing the office workers of news updates, things that concerned our business also for marketing, accounting and the president of the company wrote his weekly op ed piece. It was a weekly informative newsletter. Again writing for an inter office news letter/website is not journalism.


Diana