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--- Quote from: 7he4uthor on April 08, 2011, 09:07:01 am ---tatas y nanas
[male/female shamans]

--- End quote ---

Tata & Nana is how a Nahua child says father (tahtzin) & mother (nantzin) in Nahuatl.


--- Quote ---Tata & Nana is how a Nahua child says father (tahtzin) & mother (nantzin) in Nahuatl.
--- End quote ---
that was somewhat helpful ... suppose i coild have googled that.


--- Quote ---from my understanding and experience, the following is true for a traditionally-constructed and properly carried out sweat lodge or temazcal (which are 2 different things): there will be water vapor, which may be heavy, but it should not have smoke at all.

Anyone with more knowledge, feel free to correct me on this.
--- End quote ---

I may have been wrong about this WRT the temazcal actually.  I'm not sure it came across in my original post that my experience is very limited! (Someone would have had to read my other posts to know that; sorry for not making it more clear.)

I noticed that some research coming out of investigation into cardiovascular health in rural Guatemala, including a couple of recent studies published in 2011, indicated that depending on the construction (specifically the venting) of the temazcal, significant and risky CO2 exposure can occur.  This being a small, new body of research, and me not being a scientist, I won't try to interpret it, except to say that I was wrong to make a blanket statement that the traditionally-constructed temazcal would not produce wood smoke exposure.  (Well, to be clearer, it seems this research is making the argument that the temazcal design of many rural Maya communities of today, which is what we on this site would term "traditional," while indeed passed on generationally, has diverged over the last several hundred years from a tradition seen in archaeological sites, which did originally have venting of the smoke.)

A note on my personal take on this kind of stuff: There have been cases where the measurement instruments in badly-designed epidemiological research ("safari science") have been wildly inaccurate, so I always try to follow topics for a while and see what develops, rather than making automatic assumptions out of one or a small number of studies.  I will be keeping my eye on this one.   

critter - a white non-ndn person:
my only thought on this, as i have no experience/knowledge to stand on in
regards to any ceremony, is that if someone/anyone got "quite angry" at
another for leaving, then it is not a real or valid spiritual environment.


--- Quote from: 7he4uthor on April 08, 2011, 09:07:01 am ---i met a couple from holland ... the male participating in a sundance rite
near toluca ... i asked him why not just join opus dae ... you can cut and whip your self there into a trance visionary state
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I guess this is about Opus Dei, see this paragraph:

--- Quote from: ---Mortification
See also: Mortification of the flesh []

As a spirituality for ordinary people, Opus Dei focuses on performing sacrifices pertaining to normal duties and to its emphasis on charity and cheerfulness. However, much public attention has focused on Opus Dei's practice of mortification—the voluntary offering up of discomfort or pain to God; this includes fasting, or for its celibate members, "corporal mortifications" such as self-inflicted pain (self-flagellation), sleeping without a pillow or sleeping on the floor, fasting, and if compatible with their family or professional duties, remaining silent for certain hours during the day. Mortification has a long history in many world religions, including the Catholic Church. It has been endorsed by popes as a way of following Christ, who died in a bloody crucifixion and who, speaking of anybody that sought to be his disciple, said: "let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23).[73][74] Supporters say that opposition to mortification is rooted in having lost (1) the "sense of the enormity of sin" or offense against God, and the consequent penance, both interior and exterior, (2) the notions of "wounded human nature" and of concupiscence or inclination to sin, and thus the need for "spiritual battle,"[75] and (3) a spirit of sacrifice for love and "supernatural ends," and not only for physical enhancement.[citation needed]
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