Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 165337 times)

frederica

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #165 on: March 07, 2009, 05:32:37 pm »
I think it's far more complicated and if people can get past the personal issues it may be eventually addressed.  MP put up a good post on how complicated it can be, plus there is more.  If I am not mistaken there was a time when  when some AIM warriors were made "Sundance Chiefs".  Seems like Henry Crow Dog and Frank Fools Crow felt it the right thing to do.  Others may have a better history of this than I do.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 05:37:40 pm by frederica »

Offline Cetan

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #166 on: March 07, 2009, 05:51:48 pm »
Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 
Apparantly Kenny Frost has a concern that the Sundance is being held on Ute land without their permission. However, and I am neither supporting ot condemming what is done and do not even want to bring up the issue of off reservation ceremonies, the land where this Sundance occurs may be traditional Ute land but it is not on any of the Ute reservations. Historically all of this Turtle Island is Native land so everything is done on Native land.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #167 on: March 07, 2009, 11:46:54 pm »
No one has to answer to a single person on this board.  The ones that they need to answer to are being answered to.  Ben is a very busy man....if you had just called him and asked instead of believing that you are entitled to force him here to answer you...

Here you are deliberately lying and distorting a number of things.

We never asked him to "answer to us." We asked questions, he refuses to answer anyone.

Carnes has not answered to the Ute elders. He even said he didn't find it important enough to take time to do. He gave it a brief thought, then dismissed it.

Carnes has more than enough time to email Frederica to (get this) just to say he won't answer questions.

And no is "forcing" him to do anything. We've never asked him to come here. In fact all we've done is asked anyone at EMC to answer questions.

Let me take this time to ask you again, MD, the question you avoided answering before. What's your stake in this? Why devote so much time to this? Why esp, when you make yourself and Carnes and EMC all look bad when you get caught in such obvious lies and distortion?

What's truly striking to me is that you have a mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers who seemingly don't care that Carnes may or may not actually be the Sundance leader he claims to be.

Even moke striking is the contempt for Ute wishes Carnes, and others show. Apparently they have time (a lot of time) to say repeatedly the Ute concerns don't matter or they don't have time for them, but no time to actually talk to Ute elders.

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #168 on: March 08, 2009, 02:03:28 am »
not lying, just stating how I see it.  I call it trying to force someone to answer to you all [Insults and lies] you call it inquiring while trying to [More lies] find incriminating evidence [Yet more lies].  Oh yes, and keeping it going and going and going without proof.  Call it whatever [Insults] [More insults and personal attacks]  Whether it be the Carnes or those from the EMC.  Why should anyone answer to [Insults and lies]?  This was not brought up in a good way.  It was created by [Personal attacks and childish innuendos].  As far as I am concerned, it's not necessary for any of them to answer any person here.

My stake in this?  The truth.  I know the truth.  I know the very ugly details of why [More childish insults and innuendos and sidetracks].  I know that Ben is Choctaw and a Sundance chief.  I haven't heard anyone say they didn't care about what the Utes think.  Actually, when will any Utes besides Kenny even show interest in this at all?  I think you are confused by the fact that some say they don't like Kenny.  I surely don't.

I understand that you are trying to stop people from exploiting and have good intentions however, you are not going after a man who is "outside" the native communities.  he is very much inside them and everywhere.  He never has hid from anyone and he is not now.  Put up a good fight and fight those exploiters, but I hope you can handle the toes you mistakenly step on here and there.  [Childish insults]

[Eight childish insults in row.]

good day.

[Al's note- Not a single question answered, instead lots of venom and pettiness. All of that was removed, as any other will be.]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:23:54 am by educatedindian »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #169 on: March 08, 2009, 02:47:02 am »
mamaduck
Quote
My stake in this?  The truth.  I know the truth.

Mamaduck
Quote
Also, when Ben wrote that statement during the time Kenny came in and made remarks off of here say, it was not traditionals Ben was asking people to be cautious of, it was those who are podia or not native at all trying to get "in" with the native communities and then turning around and causing trouble.  These comments were based on the actions of the likes of Walks.  Not traditionals that may have questions.  Or anyone who may have questions or concerns.

Hi mama duck

This isn't true. Bens comments were in response to the topic of Kenny Frosts concerns. Nothing was said about non natives and PODIAs , and that is not what was being discussed.

mamaduck
Quote
The reason you are not getting your answers is because you are not entitled to them.   

I guess different people may see this differently , but Ben Carnes does publicly state that he is a Sundance Chief . If he is entiled to do that it seems to me the general public is entitled to ask "How so ?"

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=431484864
( source #1 )
Ben Carnes
Quote
Another statement he has made is in regards to a Sun Dance I conduct in Colorado. And please remember, he brought it up in a bulletin so that is how people who didn't know me will now know what I do. I've only told and invited certain people that I have felt compelled to invite.

This isn't entirely true. It isn't just because Kenny Frost brought this up in a bulliten , that people who don't know Ben , will know what he does. It is published other places on the internet.


http://censored-news.blogspot.com/2008/01/choctaw-ben-carnes-border-treaties.html (source # 2 )
This says it was written by Ben Carnes
Quote
About the author
Ben Carnes is from the Choctaw Nation, a long time activist, prisoner’s rights advocate, and a Sun Dance Chief. He currently resides in Southern Colorado. He can be reached through the website at http://www.eaglecouncil.org/. Or at www.myspace.com/eagle_mountain

This position of being a Spiritual leader does seem to be being linked, with the alternative community he wants to create

Quote
Eagle Mountain – Sacred Sovereign Territory
For more than 25 years it has been my vision to have land where I/we could build a community utilizing alternative forms of energy and have ceremonies and host conferences.
(source #2 censored news blogspot )

Quote
However, the origin of the Eagle Mountain Sun Dance has been a gift from the Creator. Without following the vision he had given me years ago, we wouldn't be in Colorado. When we first began looking for land, we checked on a piece of property. There we made a prayer for the Creator to help us in securing the land if this is where we were suppose live and then place tobacco down. Not too long after, I was told to come and look at another piece of property. The land that I saw was perfect in that we had water and isoloation by being bordered by Bureau of Land Management lands and the sheep mountain.
( source # 1 Ben's response to Kenny Frost)

And Ben does sound like he is soliciting public funding for this project...

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=386568955

 
Quote
Sunday, April 27, 2008
   
European speaking tour in August
Ben Carnes
Quote
The purposes of this tour is to continue to educate and raise awareness of Native issues, promote the goals of Eagle Mountain and to raise funds to help secure the land and build our infrastructure. See our website for more information .

I would also like to have some benefit shows organized there to help raise funds to secure the land, build energy efficient homes and create our own source of power using wind and sun.

For more information on arranging a presentation or benefit in Europe, contact Quetzal Tzab at: tzab.quetzal@gmail.com

Thank you,
Ben Carnes

Quote
Resume of
Ben Carnes (Choctaw Nation)
bencarnes@eaglecouncil.org

(continues... )
Quote
Interests & Goals
He currently resides in Southern Colorado with wife and daughter. His vision is to create a self-sustainable community using alternative sources of energy, producing organic foods. He is writing his autobiography of his involvement in land rights & sovereignty of Native (Canada & US) and Hawaiian people, prisoners' rights, the emerging police state, and a focus on the Indigenous prophesies & spirituality.

Just guessing , but it sounds like it may have been Tayac family who gave Ben the responsibility of leading some of the ceremonies he does ...

http://censored-news.blogspot.com/2008/01/choctaw-ben-carnes-border-treaties.html
Quote
Choctaw Ben Carnes: The border, treaties, prisoner rights and the Ghost Dance
Thoughts of Racism, Politics and Spiritual Sovereignty

Spirituality – A way of life
After completing my parole in 1991, I had been going to several different ceremonies all around the country, and had begun to fulfill a Sun Dance commitment. Although, I did not feel I was ready, Chief Tayac of the Piscataway Indian Nation and his son, Mark, the Sun Dance Chief urged me to go into the prisons as a Spiritual Advisor.

When I went into the prison and ran a sweat for my family there, I have never felt anything more fulfilling.
And more mentioning Ben's connection with the Tayac family

http://freepress.org/departments/display/20/2007/2854.

Quote
Reflections on the passing of our people of AIM
by Ben Carnes
October 15, 2007

(begins...)
Quote
later went to our Sun Dance at Tayac Territory where she came every year.

I'm not saying there is any wrong doing going on here , but if anyone is entitled to claim to be a Spiritual leader and Sundance Chief on the internet, to me it seems fair for the public to be entitled to hear how he was given this responsbility , and by who, and what Elders are involved in providing ongoing support..

If people aren't entitled to make enquiries , how else are people going to be able to avoid supporting people they don't choose to support....

And the only way people can make informed choices is by making inquiries. I don't see why that is offensive .
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 02:51:33 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #170 on: March 08, 2009, 06:42:57 am »
Hi mama duck

This isn't true. Bens comments were in response to the topic of Kenny Frosts concerns. Nothing was said about non natives and PODIAs , and that is not what was being discussed.


Kenny Frosts concerns were based on the here say of a man [Innuendo removed] so yes, it all ties in to non natives and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm.  Bens remarks have nothing to do with people who have questions about him.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:22:10 am by educatedindian »

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #171 on: March 08, 2009, 07:12:58 am »
It's exploitation when people pay you to travel to them to speak?  [Sidetrack removed]  I guarantee, the very little amount that Ben has received for his travel and time...is not making him a rich man.  and he very well could travel and make thousands if he wanted. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:20:54 am by educatedindian »

Offline tachia

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #172 on: March 08, 2009, 08:22:31 am »
I'm not saying there is any wrong doing going on here , but if anyone is entitled to claim to be a Spiritual leader and Sundance Chief on the internet, to me it seems fair for the public to be entitled to hear how he was given this responsbility , and by who, and what Elders are involved in providing ongoing support..

If people aren't entitled to make enquiries , how else are people going to be able to avoid supporting people they don't choose to support....

And the only way people can make informed choices is by making inquiries. I don't see why that is offensive .

snipped, because last time i quoted someone's whole post to comment on it, it was apparently frowned upon ..

anyways .. the WHOLE post was good moma p .. it does all tie in together, though it is difficult to discern from all the information available .. i wanted to than you for your posting all this .. with all these links, and people working  together, perhaps we can arive at some truth .. whatever that truth may be .. .. ..
and i agree .. the only way anyone can make informed decisions and choices is by asking questions, making inquiries and doing a lot of research .. .. i do not see how this could be considered offensive ..

Offline tachia

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #173 on: March 08, 2009, 08:46:56 am »
again snipping .. for the same reason .. yet i would like to add to the below by Al ..


Carnes has more than enough time to email Frederica to (get this) just to say he won't answer questions.
it would seem quite logical to presume that the carnes have "more than enough time", considering the fact that neither he nor his wife have jobs. They have time to email, message and call others concerning all this in here, so it would seem that they could give some of that time to addressing these issues in here.

What's truly striking to me is that you have a mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers who seemingly don't care that Carnes may or may not actually be the Sundance leader he claims to be.
i feel  that i should address this misconception, i do so from personal knowledge. there is no "mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers". In the carnes "group", there are a few Hispanics that claim various ndn bloodlines yet none were born and raised NDN .. i have to say here that i actually like, and even respect, some of these Hispanics and merely feel saddened that they are being misguided. As for NDNs, if there are any at all,  it is but one or two. At this last years "sundance" there were two that could actually say that they were NDN, both of whom i do know and do have (or did) respect for. It should be made clear that all of the carnes "ceremonies" including their "sundance are not attended by a "mix" of NDNs and whites, but rather are attended by white nuagers, with perhaps, from time to time, a couple of NDNs.

Even moke striking is the contempt for Ute wishes Carnes, and others show. Apparently they have time (a lot of time) to say repeatedly the Ute concerns don't matter or they don't have time for them, but no time to actually talk to Ute elders.
I agree that this is probably the most damning, their utter lack of concern for the wishes of the Nation whose territory they are in.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:22:18 am by tachia »

Offline tachia

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #174 on: March 08, 2009, 09:26:11 am »
Frederica asked for some proof of the carnes appealing for financial support, other than mere “personal stories” of such. This is quite lengthy, I apologize for that yet thought it important to post it in it’s entirety.

Bens letter appealing for financial support. This appeal for financial support was originally posted in October of 2007 and was re-posted multiple times in the early months of 2008. This is the appeal to which walks responded with his offer of financial support in the form of a loan to help them out. This appeal was posted all over the internet and sent via email to a great many.
Remember that neither of the carnes are working, they expect others to support them while doing nothing to support themselves. In all fairness, I do know that ben did have a job for a few months last summer, a job that was obtained after this appeal went out and was only held for a few months.
.   
Note: the website given for EMC: http://www.eaglecouncil.org has been removed.

Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council Appeal Letter for Support
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/I_P_I/message/17116

Dear Friends & Relatives:

Last summer, we were several months behind in land payments. With everyone’s help, we were able to raise a little over $5,000.00 to get current. I had thought I would be able to keep up the payments after that, but the company I was working for didn’t hire me on any other projects after the one I was working on had been completed. A few other leads didn’t pan out.  Currently, I have been getting my records together to join the Iron workers union. One of our friends is a foreman at the construction site of the Comanche power plant and said that he would get me hired on. I got all the paperwork to the union hall in Pueblo, and then I was told that I would have to contact the Denver office for an interview. I called the Denver office two days ago, and they have told me they might do interviews in Nov. There are no job prospects for me now.

On the same day, I picked up my mail from the post office and there was a certified letter from our realtors. I called and spoke with them today, and they want me to come in to their office tomorrow and speak with them about giving some of the land back to them. Which is something I find unacceptable.  The place where we have our arbor and the locations of the springs where we have water rights to would more than likely be separated. If we relinquished some of the land, then we may end up with neighbors who have no respect for what we do.

I had planned on sending the attached letter out to everyone when we had some things in place, but it seems critical that I send this letter now. Some of you who receive this appeal may not have had the chance to come and experience what we do and what are visions are for the land. So I would ask you to look a our website, the address is below.  We are in the process of updating it with the help of a friend in Virginia. We are trying to upload an image to cafepress.com so that we could have some products to sell online. The proceeds would not be as much as if we did it ourselves, but it would be a way to start generating funds to have our shirts made by Native owned companies at a greater profit to ourselves.

So I am asking each of you to take a little time to read the attached letter and email or call me about how much you can support or what else you can do. And I will be emailing some of you individually to discuss some thoughts or ideas I have.

Thanks everyone, Ben

-- “Empowering the Peoples’ Vision through a return to our Traditions”
http://www.eaglecouncil.org
============
Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Appeal Letter for Support

October 11th, 2007

Introduction

This email is going out to more than 100 people that I have met and have known and I hope that each of you will take time to read this lengthy letter. We are at a critical point in the development of our organization and we desperately need your help.

This an appeal for any support you can offer. I am planning an aggressive campaign to raise funds through for the Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, our Land Fund and for the Eagle Mountain Sun Dance (next years dates are July 13th – 20th).

We formed the EMSC as a church and filed with the Colorado Secretary of State, and we have a federal Employee Identification Number. The IRS guidelines states that it is not necessary for a church to file for a 501 ( C )(3), but it would be to our advantage to do so. The reason is that not a lot of foundations will fund religious activities, and even less for traditional Native based organizations.

To become a federal non-profit, we would have to come up with $700 or $750.00 since we expect that we will have more than $10,000.00 income. It is $350.00 if we expect less than $10,000.00. There are a number of programs we want to initiate as an organization and you can find those details at our website

http://www.eaglecouncil.org

Along with the fee, we will need to build our infrastructure to not only accommodate our guests for Sun Dance: such as the completion of the kitchen, root cellar water storage & lines, additional composting outhouses, and a roundhouse. We also need to get the grader repaired, obtain a backhoe & dump truck, diesel engine vehicles, and a bio-diesel plant. We have also had problems with cattle coming onto our property since we do not have a fence that completely surrounds the property. Also, an important need is to have a home, a parsonage if you will, that I can live in on the land so that we can be there to take care of things. We had an opportunity to acquire seven mobile homes, but we had no money to pay $1200.00 per trailer to move them here. So we didn’t get them. In a brief conversation with the county building inspector, he wouldn’t have allowed it.

Another project is setting up a summer youth camp. We’d like to have Tipi’s to house the youth, and teach them necessary survival skills to boost their self-esteem. At times we can have the youth & Elders gathering for passing on stories & traditions. There are a number of youth in the custody of the state who could benefit, but we don’t have the facilities or certified counselors to work with them.

There will have to be a budget written up on the programs and activities that we set up as a priority and then follow down in that order. I had hoped that some of our dancers would be willing to take a program and develop it, but most need training in program management and skills in working within a non-profit organization. That is part of the growing pains for grassroots movements in learning how build a successful organization.

The Land Fund

Ever since the early 1980’s, I have envisioned a place where we could be ourselves and where people can come and get their life in order. I didn’t see it as a program based upon accredited modalities of treatment; I saw it as a way of life based upon traditional philosophies and values. I carried this vision through all the years I traveled around the world, learning and experiencing how other people lived and seen the problems they have had to cope with. Those experiences help to sharpen my vision.

Then it seemed like one day everything fell into place through the prayer my wife and I offered a prayer to find a place to make this vision a reality. We found it in southern Colorado. It is 160 acres of land with rights to two springs. It is bordered on two sides by BLM land; another side is steep hilly land that we don’t expect anyone will be building on it. It is beautiful land and has what it needs to sustain a community. I also know that this is where the Creator has brought us. There have been so many wonderful things that have happened to affirm this belief.

The land was sold to us for $1,000.00 per acre. At this time, we owe a remaining balance of $72,056.00 out of $160,000.00. Currently, we owe $2,068.14, in back payments. Next month we will owe an additional $689.38. We started making payments in 2002, so my family and friends have put in $87,944.00 to date.

I have always intended to pay off this land and then place it into a trust so that the land would never be in danger of being sold. We want this land to be held forever for our families and people. We don’t want anyone to fight over who owns what or to exploit the land of its natural resources for profit.

With the possibility of foreclosure beginning in the next few weeks, we need your help to get the land payments current. We also need your help in getting this land paid off so that we don’t have to deal with this matter again. I have outlined some other ideas in this letter to make that happen, but we need everyone to pitch in where they can. One of my brothers had said it is a shame you have to pay for it. I agree in the fact that as Native people we have been homeless in our homelands. We have a small bit of land now and we don’t want to lose it. If you can help with this urgent need, please call or contact me tonight or in the AM. If enough of you can let me know you have a check in the mail or arrange a transaction, we can assure our realtors that we do have the money coming in and there is no need for foreclosure proceedings to start.

If we lose this land, we lose our Sun Dance and the visions we have shared for the future. This is something that cannot happen.

Fundraising

Another important needs here is to secure the fees to file an application with the IRS for non-profit status, along with the land fund. Preparing and completing the application is simple enough, and once we can submit the application for tax-exempt status, we will receive a letter from the IRS that indicates our application is pending and then we can submit proposals for funding.

There are many ways to raise funds, and I am sure that there are a number of resources on the Internet and the public library to give you ideas. Two fundraising activities are benefit concerts and public speaking. There are some performers who have said they be happy to perform if I had something set up, and I have many other friends who are performers across the country whom I can speak to about assisting us.

 I have my credentials to speak publicly and have done so in the past in the past 20 years. I have spoken on Native issues across the US, Canada, Columbia S.A. and in Europe. We are currently working on creating a speakers bureau. We have a few who have agreed to speak for us. When we have a list of the speakers and résumé’s with photo’s, we’ll set up the page on our website. Then we would ask you to forward this information to universities, organizations and church groups.

There are even simple things you can do such as having a benefit yard sale and publicizing it in your area. Other things that could be done is to have arts & crafts items donated for raffles in events such as pow-wows or other events where there will be gathering of people.

In order to have products immediately, such as, t-shirts, coffee cups, and caps, etc., to raise funds, we are setting up an online store at www.cafepress.com/eaglecouncil. This should, over time, assist us in purchasing our own equipment (button-maker) and paying Native owned business’s to make items with our logo to sell at fund raising events. To make this successful, everyone can encourage your friends and family to visit our website and to support us by making a purchase at our online store.

Some of you who have the connections could host a dinner and invite celebrities or other individuals who are interested in donating to a worthy cause. We all know there are several who regularly contribute and that there are many organizations like us who approach them constantly for support. So if you know people like that and can interest them in coming to a dinner with one of our people as a speaker, I am sure it could be a successful event.
Maybe some of you know people in the casino industry. See if you can get them interested in what we are doing and making a personal introduction. We could secure a spot for a benefit show, or       the casino may donate enough to address our needs.

A Prophecy Gathering

If we can get our infrastructure set up to accommodate up to 2000 people, I really need to host a gathering of spiritual leaders who knows the prophecies of their people to share with each other and us. It is something that has not been done on a hemispheric level. From all that I have gathered, most if not all the prophecies have been completed. The Mayan Calendar ends in 2012 and its significance on a spiritual level is connected with other Native prophecies. There is something very important for us to learn from such a gathering.

The expense in providing travel to these people from across the Western Hemisphere will be enormous. Some of the people we will need to hear from may not be allowed into the US, so we may need to travel to other places and hold a field hearing to bring them all together. That is besides providing food, sanitation and water, including housing that many people.

The result from such a gathering is to issue a statement to other world religious leaders explaining what direction our spirituality must take. As Native people who have a responsibility to the Earth, we have a duty to make this statement and live it.

This is a vision that has building within me for more than half of my life. And only in the past five years did so many goals happen in a rush. We have the land where ceremonies can take place, we have water and it is where we can build a self-sustaining community. I am not one who generally asks for help, but we need it now. There is so much to do in the next five years.

How You Can Help

This is where each of you comes in. You are organizers, shakers & movers, and artists of all kinds. Some of you are homemakers, students/teachers or business people. Who ever you are you have some type of skills or experiences that can help us to move forward.

Every person can make some kind of difference, you just need to believe in what you are doing and most importantly, believe in yourselves. I’ve seen it happen with people who never believed they could ever make a difference. I am going to ask each of you to take a few days to think this over before you decide whether or not you can make a commitment to help.

You can make an assessment of what you can do, write them out and let me know within a few days. We can then see where all of our support is going to come from, and we can bring you all together so that you can combine your resources. Then we can work together to set up a calendar of events from say for example, April/May to Sept., with the exception of the month of July for our ceremonies. And with November being Native American Heritage month, get bookings for school/universities for speakers.

If anyone wants to make a financial contribution to help with the Land Fund and IRS filing fees, make your check out to “Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council”, P.O. Box 88, Gardner, CO. 81040. Any funds over and above the filing fees will be applied to where needs are not being met.

If you have questions, please feel free to write or call me (719) 746-0119. If the phone is busy or I don’t answer, leave me a message and what number to call you back at. I will return your call. Don’t anyone think any of you aren’t important enough to help in some way; I’ve contacted you because I know you are and that you can do something. Think of where we would be if the leaders we have today didn’t think they could do anything.

I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and considering what you can do. I hope to hear from you soon.

In the Spirit of Peace,

Ben Carnes,
Sun Dance Chief

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #175 on: March 08, 2009, 09:33:09 am »
keeping it going and going and going without proof. 

That has to be the most bizarre thing I've heard in awhile. It's even more bizarre than the defender of Johnson/TBE/Mohammed on the other thread.

This thread would have been incredibly short and forgotten long ago if someone at EMC had just said "Carnes was made a sundance leader by XYZ." That, and explained the Nuage hippie nurse selling healing at their dances.

Instead MD, Rattlebone, Crow and others have dragged it out over, in large part, their personal issue with some of Carnes's critics.

Good going, EMC and supporters. You sure know how to make everyone think Carnes has something to hide.

Offline tachia

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #176 on: March 08, 2009, 09:36:19 am »
(at the risk of being told that i am "spamming" .. there is more that i wish to post. I am sorry yet i am not always able to be online everyday and thus have to post when i can do so)

It was brought to my attention  that the carnes are claiming to have the full support of Bernard Red Cherries.  Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. to address this i am posting the following statement from Bernard that was sent out in September 2008.


Statement of Bernard Red Cherries
Northern Cheyenne
Chief Headsman Northern Cheyenne Elk Society

I, Bernard Red Cherries, Denounce the activities of Ben Carnes, his family, and his organization, “Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council”. I am uncompromising when it comes to defending traditional cultures and the protection of ceremonies. I am convinced that Ben Carnes is exploiting our Indian peoples, our cultures and our ceremonies for his own personal gain.

In speaking by telephone with the Carnes, especially my conversations with Cat, I had some very serious doubts about them and everything that they were doing. After meeting Carnes and his wife at that new age event in Montana, I was absolutely convinced, based on what I saw, heard and learned by speaking with the Carnes themselves, that their motivation in everything that they do, was purely for money and self promotion of themselves and their organization. I went to that event only because the Carnes told me that they intended to use that opportunity to speak out against exploitation and asked for my help. I did speak out against the exploitation of our Indian peoples, our ceremonies, our traditions and our cultures. All I heard from them was self promotion . Instead of speaking out against these exploiters, they embraced those new age people and made friends with them in order to get donations for their activities and their plans for a trip to Europe.

Following the event I cut off all communication with the Carnes. I will not associate with an exploiter of our cultures, traditions and ceremonies. The Carnes actions are contrary to the teachings of all tribal ways.

Ben Carnes is no spiritual leader of our Indian people. If he was going to stand up for Indian rights he should have done it in solidarity with Indian people, but he does not. Everything that the Carnes have done is a wrong against our Indian People. Carnes does nothing for our Indian people, all that he does, is done for white people and his own personal monetary gain.

We must stand together to seek justice as Indian people to make sure that our Sacred ways are preserved in their entirety for all our future generations. We must denounce any who would exploit our Sacred ways. Only those with the correct knowledge of our traditions, and the ceremonial rights can lead our sacred ceremonies, only those who speak the language of their nations and who follow their own Nations sacred ways of life.

Bernard Red Cherries
Northern Cheyenne
September 2008

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #177 on: March 08, 2009, 10:54:47 pm »
Kenny Frosts concerns were based on the here say of a man [Innuendo removed] so yes, it all ties in to non natives and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm.  Bens remarks have nothing to do with people who have questions about him.

i am NOT addressing MD .. no point ..i am ONLY addressing yet another lie of hers .. actually i feel sorry for yvette's total ignorance in this issue .. the carnes are merely "internet friends" of hers, and recent ones at that .. she does not KNOW them at all, that much is quite obvious .. ..

but .. for all others .. FYI, the Ute Nation and Kenny Frost's "concerns" about the carnes began LONG before "the man in question" even knew who the carnes or Kenny were! .. Kenny's "concerns" were NOT based on the "hear say of "a man"! .. .. that man was not even aware of any of those concerns until well after the fact .. the Ute Nation and Kenny Frost have had these concerns about the carnes for several years now .. he carnes NEVER contacted anyone in the Ute Nation to ask permission etc, and they refused all contact with Kenny Frost .. .. just like now, they will NOT answer ANY questions .. .. they merely send in their "dawgs" to create diversion etc .. .. ..

i have to agree though, in that this "concern" about the carnes ALL does tie into non-ndn's and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm .. ben is running a "sundance", "inipi" and other ceremonies FOR non-ndn's and PODIAS .. these people are being ALLOWED by the carnes to infiltrate our Sacred ceremonies and are causing harm to our peoples .. .. ..

Offline CROW

  • Posts: 3
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #178 on: March 09, 2009, 03:22:18 am »
keeping it going and going and going without proof. 

That has to be the most bizarre thing I've heard in awhile. It's even more bizarre than the defender of Johnson/TBE/Mohammed on the other thread.

This thread would have been incredibly short and forgotten long ago if someone at EMC had just said "Carnes was made a sundance leader by XYZ." That, and explained the Nuage hippie nurse selling healing at their dances.

Instead MD, Rattlebone, Crow and others have dragged it out over, in large part, their personal issue with some of Carnes's critics.

Good going, EMC and supporters. You sure know how to make everyone think Carnes has something to hide.

I made two post, yeah I really kept it going. I asked a question about someone. Come to find out you were the fraud I was questioning about I believe. Someone got offended I questioned their leader and tried to make it a thing. Its honestly nothing to whine about.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #179 on: March 09, 2009, 04:08:56 am »


 and PODIAS .. these people are being ALLOWED by the carnes to infiltrate our Sacred ceremonies and are causing harm to our peoples .. .. ..




   I do believe that both Walks and yourself are far less then 1/4 native by blood. As a matter of fact as already pointed out, and acknowledged by Walks himself; he is not enrolled, and probably has no actual proof that he is native whatsoever.

  It is my understanding that you claim to be Cherokee, but grew up in New Mexico or something like that.

 So since this is a point you feel is valid here in this investigation of Mr. Carnes, how do you justify yourself claiming to be Native and being involved in any ceremony?

  I have seen pictures of both yourself and Walks at the Carnes residence, and of course Walks looks white and to date has no proof of his claims to being Indian other then some family story.

 So how was Walks being there not a problem for you then, as it is now considering he is very much one of these PODIA people you speak of?

  If Walks does not fall into this PODIA category, then I would like to hear an explanation of how he does not fall into this category, and what your definition of a PODIA since you are making this aspect of the Carnes's behavior an issue.

  I do not view this as sidetracking on my part since it is a valid statement that you have presented that should be asked of you "the accuser" as well since I do know about both Walks and yourself.