Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[Rattlebone]

 Cetan she and her friends have a personal grudge against Ben and his wife, and it has nothing to do with him being any kind of exploiter because he is not.

 It is about their personal issues with him, and the over inflated ego of one of their friends they are secretly on here supporting.

 No amount of proof of evidence of the proof will be listened to by either of them, and nor will they care if you show it to them.

 I have dealt with them for years now, and can tell you I know how they operate.

 What disturbs me about them is that the rest of us have agreed to keep personal issues of this board, but both of them refuse.

 They continue to come to this board and make statements about things and try and make what they say seem as "evidence," and yet when you ask them for it, you will never get it from them.

 Until they can provide some sort of hard proof of what they say, they are doing nothing but making false accusations about things that are not true, and trying to make them seem as if they are not the personal grudges that they really are.

[Eagle Feather]

cetan, don't believe everything you read jest becauze it came fom some sources you trust.  Leonard Peltier DID NOT write that sttement.   Any of you that are educators can look back at Leonard's statmetns and see that for yurself.  that stmet was written by some ego big head with a self servin misson.  guess who.    

and as to the personal "grudge" and personal issue stuff that keeps gettin putout her by rattlebun and tothers, THEy are the ones makin it prsonsl.  ** mods will you pleze stop these fools from keepin this stupidy alive...ban them from continuing to post on this thred with scuh crud.  becuse no matter how many times you have asked them to say on topic - they refuse!    thank you verry much

[Eagle Feather]

Ok , I am going to wade in here and make a few observations, based on nothing more than what I am reading here....

1. Ben Carnes is interested in starting a Spiritual community.

2. He has some very active online supporters.

3. Some personal allegations were made against Walks and Ben Carnes was criticized for his choice of friends.

1. Walks was a strong supporter of Ben Carnes and Ben Carnes was a strong supporter of Walks

5.Now Walks is accusing Ben Carnes of not repaying money he borrowed.  I think we all have friends who have done the same thing. Some people are saying this is a personal issue that does not belong in a discussion in NAFPS.

6. People are saying this is more than a personal issue because Ben Carnes is a Spiritual leader and as such he must show better behavior than regular people. 

7. A couple of the people who strongly supported him in April felt they needed to retract their support. No reasons were given. No personal grievances were aired in public.   

8. Some of Ben Carnes supporters are saying that the fact some of Ben's former supporters  have retracted their support is a "personal Issue" and it is being suggested they are somehow wrong for retracting their previous support.

So here is my own observation based just on the facts as i read them here.

It looks like you all are really an unstable bunch.

With so many shifting loyalties and the inability to sort things out before they erupt into an internet flame war, I really have to wonder if any of you are really mature enough to form a stable Spiritual community?   

Secondly, if people who formally supported Ben want to retract that support for whatever reason, personal - or to do with bigger issues, that is entirely their right. They don't have to give any reasons as long as what they DO say is true, and verifiable. When you all begin trying to discredit someone or make them guilty of some kind of personal vendetta, just because they retracted former support, you all begin sounding more like a cult than a community based on traditional values.

I'm not sure why this thread got moved back into research needed, but at this point, the only thing that has made me skeptical of Ben Carnes is the behavior of his followers.

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

When you have a myspace page which is supposed to be connected to some sort of Spiritual Council - as he has - I can see it could be hard to know who was connecting to you, or what they might do with what was shared.

Enough said . I really have next to no clue what I am talking about here. But what I am saying seems pretty obvious ...
   

GREAT POSTE! 

[Rattlebone]

 

Any of you that are educators can look back at Leonard's statmetns and see that for yurself.  that stmet was written by some ego big head with a self servin misson.  guess who.    

and as to the personal "grudge" and personal issue stuff that keeps gettin putout her by rattlebun and tothers, THEy are the ones makin it prsonsl

. 

 See Federicka these two statements right here prove what I have been saying all along. These individuals are coming in here with a personal grudge against Ben.

 The insult against me above also shows that this person is probably Walks, Tachia, or perhaps a certain woman they are in here backing.

 *B* is that you? 
 

[frederica]

Well, I have to say it looks like a "sock-puppet",  I don't know why they have to spell like that.  For effect I think.  What tangible proof do you have Eagle that what Cetan received is not from LP, if any??  If you are saying it's forged, that's a pretty serious accusation.

[Rattlebone]

Well, I have to say it looks like a "sock-puppet",  I don't know why they have to spell like that.  For effect I think.  What tangible proof do you have Eagle that what Cetan received is not from LP, if any??  If you are saying it's forged, that's a pretty serious accusation.

 The reason they are spelling like that is so that they can try and disguise their real witting style and not give themselves away as to who they really are.

I would bet you anything that their IP is coming from Oklahoma, or Colorado. I would be shocked if it were not.

[glendadeer]

I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.

i am dealing with the passing of a brother so i am not going to get into this ..
but cetan,  it might be worthwhile to ask some questions as to WHO is the "author" of what you just quoted .. jacketing is serious, not a game as some seem to believe .. .. when has LP "EVER" jacketed anyone?? ... .. there are a great number of people who do know the answer on WHO was the author .. all i will say is that is was NOT written by LP .. .. now let the attacks on me begin and the cards fall where they may .. i am grieving and tired of keeping silent and i cannot honour this brother by remaining silent on the many things he was going to speak out about .. .. if we do not speak up about corruption then we are worthless .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

First of all it's really frustrating seeing my brother Ben Carnes, his family and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council back on the RESEACH NEEDED forum...being slammed by some kinda eagle feather who is obviously misspelling words to make themself look even stupider than they really are...(one only has to guess who this is) and Tachia...and whoever else...

What makes me angry is the statement made above in red...Who is Tachia Hawk Sandoval? To even be questioning statements that come from the LP DOC? All one has to do is google A HERO'S WELCOME LEONARD PELTIER and you can find this statement that Leonard put out all over the net.

http://freepeltiernow.blogspot.com/2009/02/statement-from-leonard-peltier.html
http://www.iacenter.org/prisoners/peltier/id/
http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11319&news_iv_ctrl=1013
http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2009/01/peltier-attacked-at-canaan-and-returns.html
http://freepress.org/departments/display/20/2009/3358

Okay I'm tired, that's enough...but there are many, many more sites.. to numerous to list...

PEOPLE! Do you honestly believe THESE ORGANIZATIONS would print this statement if it did not come from Leonard Peltier? The Free Press? Brenda Norrell? GET REAL!! If anyone needs looked at it would be the ones slamming Ben...especially Tachia Hawk (?), for making such a statement...Questioning the LP DOC...

By the way, I have forwarded this thread to the LP DOC, Tachia...and your allegations...and who is the "Great Number of people" who feel the same? 3 people are not a "great number of people"....

Ben Carnes is very involved with the LP DOC and was very involved in organizing the event in Boulder,Colorado Feb 7th, 2009.....

CHECK BEN'S LP DOC SUPPORT GROUP PAGE OUT:  www.myspace.com/lpbsgco and check out the pics of the event held  Feb 7th...His pics with David Hill, Leonard CrowDog, and others...

I fully support the LP DOC and what they stand for...and I hate that it is being brought into light in such a way...I am nobody to question what is put out by them...and this is kinda sad..seeing my brother Ben and his integrity questioned in such a manner....

This is typical of "people who stir the ashes"...just because of personal jealousies....who don't have their heads on right...

If Ben owes someone money...it is between them...what was it I read just last week? I am only human...?  As judge judy sez...GET OVER IT!!!

THIS IS LIKE THE OLE WHITEMAN'S WAYS OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER.....Geeze people there are more important things to write about...some real frauds outg there...spend you're time "INVESTIGATING THEM!!!"....

And I would like to know from the moderators....WHY IS THIS BACK ON "RESEARCH NEEDED"?

Thanks for you time in reading this

glenda deer

[tachia]

just as a matter of record .. anyone of these “new”people who would actually reads this whole thread .. not just the personal irrelevant rants of "their friends" .. can obviously see that i have not said a single bad word about the cranes, nor have i accused them of anything .. i have not brought up any personal issues, money or otherwise .. i was not the one that brought this thread back up after it had died two or three times .. i spoke only after the thread was brought up by others .. yes, indeed, i did retract my former support of the carnes and their organization, which as has been pointed out IS my right, yet i did so with respect, and did NOT say anything “personal” about them, other than I had considered ben as a friend and brother .. ..
READ the thread and quote the posts where I have made any PERSONAL accusations against either of the carnes .. you cannot because they do not exist .. 

point in fact .. all these new people, mike aka rattle, eric aka vuyeed, yvette aka mamaduck, are from the infamously vulgar myspace "cyber tribe" and they are bringing their petty, childish, vulgar crap here now .. (and I am sure they will do as before in here and drag others of their “myspace friends” into this) .. they switch amongst each other from enemy to friend and back again so much that no one can keep track of which of them hates which at any given time, lol .. all anyone has to do is go to the myspace group AIF (american indian family: http://groups.myspace.com/allmyrelations)
to see the utter lack of integrity and the sickening vulgarity that these people exhibit along with the fact that they all live for drama and flaming .. not only  myspace but many other groups as well ..
 
the topic .. since none of these people know the carnes in person i really doubt that they have much to say one way or another on this subject.. they can only echo what they have been told, not what they have seen and experienced in person .. if they cannot stick to the topic, they need to go back to myspace and leave the good people in here out of their petty games .. i agree with mom porcupine, if people of this ilk are followers/supporters of the carnes, that alone would make anyone skeptical of the carnes claims to be “spiritual leaders” ..

personally i will not rise to their pathetic attempts to bait me, i will not even respond to any of them .. their hearsay, lies and rumors are not worth anyone's time .. there presence in here is typical of their tactics, deflection, derailment, flaming etc .. well known tactics that all of us in nafps are quite familiar with .. so enough of these people! .. .. they need to go back to myspace where that sort of BS is acceptable! .. we tend to hold ourselves to a higher standard in nafps ..

i have not seen in this thread, anyone except danielle, say that the carnes are frauds .. and oddly enough, she is now their good buddy, as is rattle, yvette, eric, etc .. perhaps it would behoove the carnes to come in here themselves rather than send in their "dawgs" in .. ?? ..

this thread is in the category "research needed" NOT "frauds", these people need to get their “knickers out of a twist” and either contribute factually to the thread or keep silent .. .. do i personally believe that some further research is needed on the carnes before declaring them as either legitimate or fraudulent .. yes i do, that is what nafps is for, to find the truth .. whatever that truth may be .. i have no personal grudge etc .. i merely wish for the truth to be found, whatever that truth is! .. there needs to be research and discussion, not rumor, innuendo and personal vendettas brought here to deflect from the subject at hand ..  .. again, just be aware that i will not lower myself to respond to any of the myspace "cyber tribe" no matter what, doing so is exactly what they want and it is a fruitless endeavor! ..

since this thread has been brought back up .. why don't we all take the opportunity to do the necessary research on the subject in order to find the TRUTH!!? ..  ..

i thought that this had need to be addressed .. if i am out of line or off topic i know that Al and the other mods will take me to task for such .. lol

[frederica]

Let cut the flaming now,  if someone has a substantial subject for research on this thread for this forum bring it.  If not mute yourself.

[educatedindian]

The flame posts were deleted. Even many of the ones left up have quite a bit of flaming, spam, attempts to sidetrack the issue, and general childishness. From now on every last word that is not relevant to the issue of Carnes will be deleted.

If you want to insinuate something, don't. Have the courage to say it outright, or you come off as a gossip. If you claim someone is "jealous", provide proof. If you claim that an ID is someone hiding under another name, kindly provide proof by IM to one of the mods as to exactly who. We don't allow sockpuppets.

What Momma P said earlier about this "spiritual community" some of you seem determined to prove true.   

[frederica]

NO Flaming, It will be removed.

[frederica]

If you have something to same about Ben, that fine.  The rest goes.  That is not what the thread is about, we are not allowing that.  That's all there is to it....

[Moma_porcupine]

Arrrggg I don't think I have ever felt so reluctant to open my big and usually only partially informed mouth... but ...in the hopes of finding a respectful way to resolve this i am going to give it a try ... And then make a run for the safety of my little porcupine hole . Yikes !

Putting aside all the personal insults and accusations, which prove nothing except something about the character of the accuser, I have some questions.

As Tachia said, the statement where Lenord Peltier says any disagreements within the LP DOC are nothing but petty jelousy or personal dislikes and that he would then add to this, suggesting anyone suffering from these rather common human problems may well be infiltrators sent by the Feds, seems to be an odd thing for him to say.

If Leonard Peltier wanted to assure people he trusted his commitee and had placed them in the positions they were in , why not just say that?

Assuming Lenord Peltier did make this rather heavy accusation, why did he make it? What evidence was this based on ? Where exactly did this evidence come from ?

The finger pointing with no target except anyone who dares disagree with the current administration of the LP DOC , and no evidence which can be examined , wieghed, verified or refuted is exactly the sort of crazy making divisive tactics which create unresolvable paranoia which ARE used by the Feds to undermine peoples ability to work together. 

As i would imagine Lenord Peltier is well informed of the damage that can be done by making vauge, unsubstantiated and unresolvable allegations of this kind, i have to wonder why he would make them?

If Peltier has been given information which has caused him to suggest some of his supporters who have disagreements with some of his other supporters are infiltrators, and this information is not well fonded in facts that can be verified, I can see why people would wonder if Leonared Peltier really wrote that and if he may have been manipulated.

How exactly is Mr Peltier supposed to have conveyed this? Did he type it himself ? If so, who did he give it to after he typed it, to transcribe it into cyberspace typing ?  Did he dictate it to someone over the phone? If so who and when?

I don't see the harm in trying to make sure no one person or small group of people is ever in a position to possibly bend what Leonard Peltier may want to support , to suit their own agenda.

People are human and non of us are ever completely balanced. Sometime people have an agenda that slips in so slowly they aren't even aware of it. As annoying as disagreement are, those disagreements are exactly what helps keep everybody accountable.   

Is there some neutral people who are well respected who keep in touch with Leonard Peltier and could inform people if there was ever a problem in how he was being represented?

[frederica]

It was inappropiate for him to put this up here, and that is stated in several places.  But he has the right to retract "his support" of Ben Carnes.  The money should have not been brought up as it is a personal issue and not for this forum.  But since you just walked in the door, it was to be given a week, and there is still some time left.  But it is not flaming.  Now if you want to stay fine, if you cannot contain yourself to resist flaming, the door opens both ways.

[niska]

It was inappropiate for him to put this up here, and that is stated in several places.  But he has the right to retract "his support" of Ben Carnes.  The money should have not been brought up as it is a personal issue and not for this forum.  But since you just walked in the door, it was to be given a week, and there is still some time left.  But it is not flaming.  Now if you want to stay fine, if you cannot contain yourself to resist flaming, the door opens both ways.

ben is actually a pretty nice guy... maybe people should know I do speak with him&his wife time to time..and yes I know who he is and what he does for our native people as if he did not learn it over night.. but to say this.. I am not new to this .. I know a few in this forum from other groups..if you want to know who I am I am nez'perce/salish .. I actually am not here doing fraud and I am a strong person to alot of native communites here in washington.. but when I see this happen it tells me.. [Long rambing irrelevant personal attacks removed]

 now you can waive me off here or keep me around? you're call... alls I said the truth will hurt it always does...

[Al's note: This is actually the first post where you've said anything relevant. All spam, like the three prior spam posts of yours, will be removed. It doesn't help you or Carnesfor you to be dloing this supposedly to protect him. It makes you both look petty and like you're looking to hide something.]