Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 166177 times)

frederica

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #195 on: March 10, 2009, 09:41:02 pm »
Well, since this is mostly a group of engineered opinions that have no bearing on Ben Carnes I lock the thread.  If Al wishes to address the issue he can.  If someone has something valid and worth posting, PM us.  If you wish to Read Kenny Frost and Benard Red Cherries statements, you have to dig through all the side-tracts on your own.

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #196 on: March 31, 2009, 08:41:32 pm »
I do not know much about this .. this subject was brought to my attention by someone recently though and it seems to have some bearing here ..

1) the carnes have stated that “EMC” has state tax exempt status as a church
2) ben carnes speaks at many venues that are “political” .. the DNC (democratic national convention) in Denver is one example
3) ben carnes is the head of LPDOC .. a very political organization which lobby’s for the release of not only Leonard Peltier but all other “political prisoners”
4) carnes also claims to be involved in several “prisoner rights” organizations, which would also be classified as “political”
5) carnes has attended and even been a speaker at a great many political protests, I would think that all protests are categorized as “political”

I did some research after this was brought to my attention .. and it seems as if all of these “political” activities of carnes are forbidden to him because of EMC’s tax exempt status as well as LPDOC’s tax exempt status .. perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can shed some light on this .. .. if nothing else I would think that this would be important information for carnes to know about ..

 
http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_non501c3
Tax-exempt nonprofit organizations categorized under IRC 501(c)(3) in federal law [i.e. 26 USC 501(c)(3)] are generally permitted to "lobby" to some extent, but are absolutely prohibited from engaging in "political activity."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)
Political activity
Section 501(c)(3) organizations are subject to limits or absolute prohibitions on engaging in political activities.

Elections
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to intervene in elections to public office. [1] The Internal Revenue Service website elaborates upon this prohibition as follows:

"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

"Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, certain voter education activities (including presenting public forums and publishing voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity. In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not be prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.

"On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

"The Internal Revenue Service provides resources to exempt organizations and the public to help them understand the prohibition. As part of its examination program, the IRS also monitors whether organizations are complying with the prohibition."

Lobbying
In contrast to the absolute prohibition on political campaign interventions by all section 501(c)(3) organizations, public charities (but not private foundations) are permitted to conduct a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation. Although the law states that "no substantial part" of a public charity's activities may be devoted to lobbying, charities with very large budgets may lawfully expend a million dollars (under the "expenditure" test) or more (under the "substantial part" test) per year on lobbying. [11]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm
6. No Political Activity For or Against Candidates Permitted
Church tax exemptions are in jeopardy if an organization engages in direct political activity either against or on behalf of a political candidate or in an attempt to directly influence the passage of particular legislation. Churches and religious organizations, just as any other tax-exempt charitable organization, are free to comment on any social, political, or moral issues. They may not, however, speak out for or against political candidates if they wish to continue being tax-exempt. Losing tax-exempt status can mean both having to pay income taxes and that donations to the group will not be tax deductible by the donors.

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #197 on: March 31, 2009, 08:55:14 pm »
just wondering here .. ..

if carnes and his associates have nothing to hide, are doing nothing wrong .. then i have to ask why on some things, there are some questions ..

1) the carnes have closed down both of their EMC yahoo groups .. why, if there is nothing to hide, nothing wrong in what they are doing?
2) the carnes and their associates have an still are threatening people who have dared to ask questions .. why would they feel the need to threaten people if there is nothing to hide, nothing wrong in what they are doing?

to broaden this a bit .. there are a lot of new LP branch support groups under the umbrella of LPDOC .. a good many of them are set to private,  viewable only by their "friends" .. i and others question this, why would anyone feel the need to have a support group for LP set to private? .. is there something to hide in supporting LP?

idk .. just questions .. .. and we get no answers from any of these people .. .. .. .. ..
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:26:22 pm by tachia »

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #198 on: March 31, 2009, 09:33:18 pm »
People holding positions of office for a nonprofit are able to be politically active with regard to issues their organization is involved with.  If Ben wanted to he could even lobby to a certain extent.  What he cannot do is, as a representative of a particular organization, campaign for a particular candidate.  He can state that he supports a particular candidate, he can state any organization he is involved with supports a particular candidate but he cannot campaign for them as a representative of any organization.  He is however allowed to personally support a particular candidate if he is not on the clock for either organization.  He can be politically pro-active for any organization he works with/for bringing to light issues, supporting legislation etc.  He can also do this on a personal level. Does that make sense?  Nonprofit rules and regs can definately be confusing.

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #199 on: March 31, 2009, 09:41:10 pm »
thanks sky!
yep it makes sense .. i could not make much sense of what i was reading .. it was pretty confusing and with no consensus as to whether people, like carnes, could or could not be involved in anything political .. .. thanks for clearing it up in language we can all understand!! lol

Offline mamaduck33

  • Posts: 26
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #200 on: April 01, 2009, 04:29:08 pm »
Tachia,

You made reference that Bens friends /supporters are making threats against people who ask questions.  Can you prove this?  I personally have never heard anyone threaten another person over asking questions. 

[Sidetrack and personal attacks removed.]

That has nothing to do with others who support the Carnes.  If I am wrong, please show proof of these threats you accuse many of.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 07:57:06 am by educatedindian »

Offline mamaduck33

  • Posts: 26
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #201 on: April 01, 2009, 05:29:27 pm »
And keep in mind that there is a big difference between asking questions and committing libel.  If one where to use this board to handle a personal vendetta, throw out accusations to assassinate someones character and commit libel without proof of their accusations, then the Carnes have every right to threaten to take it to a court of law.  Especially if they can prove those accusations are false.   I'm not saying that is what is going on...I'm just saying.  So, what proof do you have that threats are being made over asking questions and asking questions only?  Per your accusation/statement.

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #202 on: April 01, 2009, 06:19:01 pm »
cat carnes is a member here, if she wishes to make any allegations against me, or any others .. then SHE needs to come in here and do so .. ben carnes is a member here, he too needs to speak for himself .. ..

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..

cat carnes: i "threatened you with physical violence" in an email???? .. i have ALL the emails that went back and forth between us and in re-reading them ALL this morning, NOWHERE do i see anything that could even be REMOTELY viewed as a threat of any kind, much less one of physical violence .. lol  .. .. (just more of the myspace lies and drama)

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #203 on: April 01, 2009, 06:28:28 pm »
You even typed the word threatened in bold print so we would all see it.  So obviously, you feel this is an important fact that you want people to see.  So lets see these threats against people for "asking questions".

Offline mamaduck33

  • Posts: 26
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #204 on: April 01, 2009, 06:56:29 pm »
cat carnes is a member here, if she wishes to make any allegations against me, or any others .. then SHE needs to come in here and do so .. ben carnes is a member here, he too needs to speak for himself .. ..

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..

cat carnes: i "threatened you with physical violence" in an email???? .. i have ALL the emails that went back and forth between us and in re-reading them ALL this morning, NOWHERE do i see anything that could even be REMOTELY viewed as a threat of any kind, much less one of physical violence .. lol  .. .. (just more of the myspace lies and drama)

Damn Tachia,

You act like you don't have a myspace account. lol  I happen to be a member of many sites, not just myspace and I have hardly been on much the last 7 months.  You probably use myspace more than I do. lol  Your back peddling/character assassination technique of "don't listen to them...they are from myspace" is getting tired.  Anyone who has known Rattle or I on any boards long enough know that we have a mind and are fully capable of thinking and speaking for ourselves.  We don't go anywhere and say things that someone else told us to.  And the Carnes have never asked anyone to come in here and say anything on their behalf.  Matter of fact, they have said the opposite and said don't bother.  Many pretty much agree that they don't have to answer to you or this board.  Now...

*still waiting for proof of these threats you claimed*

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #205 on: April 01, 2009, 09:58:12 pm »

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..



 For the record I have never been asked or told by anyone to come here and say anything.
  In fact I have been told that I should just ignore this site. Furthermore as well as you claim to know me Tachia, then you like anyone else from Myspace or any other site I go to; should know I very much have a mind of my own and will speak out on  things no matter what almost anyone tells me, if what I feel I am saying is something I think I should be saying.

[Sidetrack removed]

 

 
 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:00:22 am by educatedindian »

frederica

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #206 on: April 02, 2009, 01:18:25 am »
Aside from the chatter, Tachia do you have names of the people that are making threats?  Can send IM.

Offline tachia

  • Posts: 141
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #207 on: April 02, 2009, 01:31:28 am »
frederica .. IM on the way .. ..
"they" have made this ridiculous and maligning enough as it is .. i did not feel ok about posting names and dragging others into it ..

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #208 on: April 08, 2009, 08:09:48 am »
Wish we'd caught this earlier. The extended smears and back and forth name calling and other sidetracks were removed, as any future ones will be. Once again, seems EMC supporters will do anything to avoid discussing the topic at hand, as Yvonne (mamaduck) showed with a later sidetrack.

As I've said repeatedly, part of what disturbs me is that the Carnes seem to have no problem with such behavior being done on their behalf or in their name. That, along with the EMC members and supporters openly not caring that Carnes may not be truthfulabout many things.

Tachia did send us her account, but asked that the matter be dropped since she is so tired of the threats.

Ms. Carnes asked us weeks ago to contact her and promised to sort everything out. She never answered.

And yet while claiming they have no time to answer anyone, they apparently have a lot of time to trash this forum on forums of their own.






Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #209 on: April 25, 2009, 04:58:30 am »
Why is it that anyone asking questions about Ben Carnes, his Sundance, or Eagle Mountain is always accused of having a personal agenda? They either don't like someone who is friends with Ben, have had a falling out with Ben or Cat, they're jealous of Ben and Cat, etc. The list of reasons why someone would question what Ben is doing goes on and on. Seems like every day something is added to that list.

When Danielle first asked about Ben and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, it was brought up that she was fighting with Walks. Everyone was sure that was the only reason she was questioning what was going on in Colorado. Because of this interpersonal drama, no one really wanted to consider that there might be problems.

When people who know Ben and Cat in real life withdrew their support, others rushed to his defense, claiming that the only reason these people were speaking out against Ben was because of personal differences, jealousy, etc. Some of his defenders know him; most who have posted here are only internet fans.

Neither time have we been able to have a serious discussion about what the problems are. Both times it turned into a flame war. The character, personality, family, lifestyle of everyone involved has been discussed. Everyone that is except for Ben Carnes.

I find it telling that Ben came and made two statements back in April 2008, when only Danielle was questioning his legitimacy. This time, when many have doubts, he's too busy to answer questions or explain. I read recently where a Spiritual Leader doesn't need to answer to the people, he only has to answer to the Creator. I read it; doesn't mean I believe it. I thought any leader was responsible to and for his people. Back when Ben made his statements last year, a friend commented to me that he didn't sound like any Spiritual Leader they knew. Too much talk about the things he's done, the things he's accomplished, too much "I". At the time, I didn't agree; I couldn't see it. I guess I didn't want to see it. When I reread those posts recently, I saw what my friend had seen a year ago.

When people started withdrawing their support, I wondered why. I kept my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open. I've learned a lot. I still have questions; I think most of us do. This is an emotional topic; it's affected many people. We need to set the emotion aside and discuss this the same way we would anyone else placed in Research Needed.