NAFPS Forum

General => Research Needed => Topic started by: tachia on April 04, 2008, 06:15:36 pm

Title: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on April 04, 2008, 06:15:36 pm
giving the benefit of the doubt that the eagle mountain thread was begun with good intentions .. i see no problem with a thread centered on research et al concerning Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council .. it is always good to do research on any person and or organization that anyone even thinks might just not be on the up and up .. or on a person and or org that anyone thinks might be non-fraudulent but that needs more research from the members here .. .. the truth WILL come out in the process of researching etc .. ..

with this in mind, as the OP of this thread, i would like to respectfully ask that this thread REMAIN on topic .. the topic being Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council .. with NO flaming whatsoever of any individuals involved in the first thread .. there is simply no need to do anything other than discuss the topic at hand ..

i consider Ben my brother, and i feel sure that he would welcome the scrutiny of the members here, for i know that he has nothing to hide .. Ben would be in here himself but for the fact that he is out of town on a job site with no internet access .. and i would like to reassure you all that when he returns home this weekend he will be coming in here to answer questions etc .. at this point Ben does not even know that this is all going on in here .. .. ..

so .. let the research and discussion begin ..  :)

wado equa ..
tachia

[Retitled thread]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 04, 2008, 06:20:06 pm
Met Ben at the Columbus ships protest in'92.. He has good vision and has worked very very hard for our people. Someone id go back to back with any day !
 Wanbli
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: marco on April 04, 2008, 06:40:27 pm
My name is Marco.
I have known Ben Carnes for over 16 years and he is the real deal.
I would trust him with my life, in a heartbeat.

Research him if need be.

Might I suggest getting to know him yourself too and ask him anything you
need to know directly?

I have known him always to be honest, transparent and pure of heart.

I try to live my life that way myself as well. That is why I have called him peer,
mentor, and friend for so very long. I trust you to find out if you can do the same.

Cheers,
marco
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Mvskoke.Lady on April 04, 2008, 07:03:24 pm
Hey tachia, agree that any research done with good intentions is cool.  Especially since we know that Ben and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council will pass with flying colors.   It would appease me more to have that thread moved to the Non-Frauds section of this forum however and no demands, it would be the right thing to do.   ;D
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 04, 2008, 07:21:39 pm
I agree with Mvskoke.Lady... can this be moved ? Bens name doesnt even need to be in this category.But if it cant then there will be plenty of good things that research will find ..
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: earthw7 on April 04, 2008, 08:09:15 pm
gee missed another one,
what is with these people bring their fights
from other sites here.
Just because I person disagree with someone
is not a reason to post their rumors here
See what happend?

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on April 04, 2008, 09:44:51 pm
gee missed another one,
what is with these people bring their fights
from other sites here.
Just because I person disagree with someone
is not a reason to post their rumors here
See what happend?



earth ..
could it possibly be a tactic .. derailment of a valid topic because the topic is not going the way one had planned? .. lol .. ya didn't miss much, al got that thread locked down before anything really had a chance to escalate into insanity .. .. anyways your right .. no valid reason for such pettiness .. non productive .. which is why i began this thread so that we could all have a productive and respectful discourse on the topic ..

though some do know .. i would like to let all know .. that Ben will be posting in here on this .. far better for him to speak his own words .. he is currently out of town without internet access and does not even know about any of this being discussed .. i am old school i guess .. if i have a problem with someone i will first go to them with it privately before making my allegations public .. i merely think that Ben  should be a given the chance to stand up for himself in the light of these allegations .. shrug ..

tachia
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 04, 2008, 10:12:31 pm
 spoke to someone from Pine Ridge to have it confirmed that ceremony is being practiced by outsiders. i had doubts about this b/c i read an email last year on Arvol Looking Horse and concerns of exploiting..i don`t recall when it was published but do know that i read it last year...the need for people to heal and to stop exploiters it was a choice that ceremony be closed......Last info i got was that  ceremony was closed to all but their own tribal members.

i couldn`t get my friend from standing rock so asked another friend from pine ridge.i`m still waiting for a reply on another question raised but i`m going to add what i got so far.


Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on April 04, 2008, 10:59:37 pm
spoke to someone from Pine Ridge to have it confirmed that ceremony is being practiced by outsiders. i had doubts about this b/c i read an email last year on Arvol Looking Horse and concerns of exploiting..i don`t recall when it was published but do know that i read it last year...the need for people to heal and to stop exploiters it was a choice that ceremony be closed......Last info i got was that  ceremony was closed to all but their own tribal members.

i couldn`t get my friend from standing rock so asked another friend from pine ridge.i`m still waiting for a reply on another question raised but i`m going to add what i got so far.

dani .. in case you had not noticed .. this thread has been moved to non-frauds .. and yet your still attempting to cast unfounded suspicions on a leader that is very well respected in ndn country .. ?? ..

what exactly are you attempting to say with this post? .. who exactly did you speak with on pine ridge and when? .. i would like to confirm your phone call myself, as i am sure others would as well .. this is my thread and unless you are able to back up your hearsay with facts, names, numbers etc .. i will simply have to ask you to keep your hearsay, innuendo, and petty attempts at character assassinations to yourself .. this thread will remain free of the drama, flaming etc .. .. if you have any valid FACTS (that can be verified), relating to this specific topic please do feel free to post .. untill then i am asking you respectfully to  NOT continue with the pettiness ..
thank you
tachia
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 04, 2008, 11:15:05 pm
i will ask questions...

because it`s non fraud doen`t mean comments can`t be made.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on April 04, 2008, 11:20:19 pm
Danielle, You need to stop now. You can still put your comments under the thread in Reasearch Needed. This thread was moved as it was started by tachiahawk and sounds more of a support thread. If you just wish to argue take it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 04, 2008, 11:22:14 pm
Oh,i thought that thread was locked. i couldn`t see the reply button.

thanks,frederica...i`ll do that.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 04, 2008, 11:25:07 pm
Danielle, You need to stop now. You can still put your comments under the thread in Reasearch Needed. This thread was moved as it was started by tachiahawk and sounds more of a support thread. If you just wish to argue take it elsewhere.
funny though...noone else but me was asked for phone numbers,names etc.

yea,you`re right this is a support thread,
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on April 04, 2008, 11:36:58 pm
i will ask questions...

because it`s non fraud doen`t mean comments can`t be made.

dani, by all means ask questions! .. questions are welcomed in any discussion! ..  yet i see no questions from you nor do i see you even open to discussion .. shrug .. all i see is more of the same from you, the same unfounded allegations, innuendo, hearsay (with no facts nor sources) and personal opinions that you were posting in the other thread .. dani, unless you can back up what your saying with the pertinent facts, it is nothing but hearsay and innuendo and your own personal opinion .. at the very least, you should know to be prepared with your research sources and all other pertinent facts before making unfounded allegations against anyone! ..

thank you
tachia
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 04, 2008, 11:48:00 pm
Lookinghorse put that out about 6 years ago . It split the Oceti Sakowan right down the middle . Ever hear of Leonard Crowdog Daniel . He started a Sun Dance in Texas. Crow do did. Now you can talk to the folks at Pine Ridge or Rosebudor Green Grass or Oglala.. Doesnt change the fact that Sun Dance is shared with a lot of non Oceti Sakowan people  . Here is the Looking horse statement .. and it will be follow up with a follow up statement from him .


Chief Arvol Looking Horse

Received March 15, 2003



I, Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, would like to thank all the People that attended this historic "Protection of Ceremonies" meeting.


Bernard Red Cherries - Northern Cheyenne Nation, Northern Cheyenne Arrow Priest and Elk Society Headsman
Tweety Little Bird - Northern Cheyenne Nation, No. Cheyenne Elk Horn Scraper Society
Lee Pedro - Southern Arapahoe Nation, Southern Arapahoe Rabbit Man (Holy Man)
Dave Chief - Ogallala Nation, Lakota Spiritual Leader
Dave Swallow - Ogallala Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Kevin Horse Looking - Ogallala Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Floyd Hand - Ogallala Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Silo Black Crow - Ogallala Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Sam Moves Camp - Ogallala Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Chris Leith - Prairie Island Dakota Community, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Gaylen Drapeau Sr. - I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Gaylen Drapeau Jr. - I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Ambrose Little Ghost - Spirit Lake Dakota Nation, Dakota Spiritual, Leader
Calvin Medicine Bear First - Assinoboine Nakota Nation, Nation, Spiritual Leader
Leonard Crow Dog - Si-c'an-g'u Rosebud Sioux Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Roy Stone Sr. - Si-c'an-g'u Rosebud Sioux Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Ned Medcalf - Si-c'an-g'u Rosebud Sioux Nation, Interpretor/advisor
Leon Red Dog - Hoh'-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Steve Vance - Hoh'-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Francis Yellow - Hoh'-wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Jacob Sanderson - Cree Nation Canada, Medicine Bundle Keeper
Kevin Ta-c'an - Sioux Valley Manitoba Dakota Nation, Dakota Spiritual Leader


On March 8th and 9th, Spiritual Leaders and Bundle Keepers of the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation, Cheyenne Nation and Arapahoe Nation were called together to discuss the protection from the abuse and exploitation of our ceremonies. The meeting was held at the Cultural Center in Eagle Butte, South Dakota, hosted by the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. I would also like to acknowledge the financial donation from the Prairie Island Dakota Community.


Discussions in the meeting included the molestation taking place in ceremony, indecent mockery, mixing of new age beliefs, charging for ceremonies and death, which was never heard of before in our ancient ceremonial history. There was also discussion of the use of other 'medicines' (drugs) in and around our ceremonies. When the White Buffalo Calf Woman brought the Sacred Bundle, she instructed that only those with a pure mind and heart should touch the C'anupa. The ceremonies in question, in reference to all the Plains Tribes, were the I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony), Wi-wanyang-wa-c'i-pi (Sundance Ceremony) and Han-ble-c'i-ya (vision quest) Sacred Rites.


We put out notice in the newspapers, native radio stations and also contacted people through the phone. I offered prayers for the safe journey of the People to this very important historic meeting. Those that could not attend, I acknowledge their prayers for a good outcome for our concerns.


After long discussion and testimonies of the concerns and issues, it was decided that it would be up to me, as the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe to make a decision. It was good to feel the beginning of a Unity amongst our People. This has been my concern for many decades, especially now, when we are facing an oncoming war. We need to stand strong with our ceremonies!


I will state what the decision is and also explain the reasons. I will state the protocols to our Seven Sacred Rites, which were passed down to me when I became the next Keeper at the age of 12 years old. These protocols are traditional knowledge passed down through our oral history and need to be brought back to strengthen our 'Ho-c'o-ka' (our sacred alters) once again.


I will also address the areas that I cannot be involved in. My responsibility is the Seven Sacred Rites. It was decided, from March 9th, 2003 and forward, there will be no non-Natives allowed in our sacred Ho-c'o-ka (our sacred alters) where it involves our Seven Sacred Rites. The only protection with this decision in Government law; is that only enrolled members can carry an eagle feather. In all the Seven Sacred Rites, there has always been the understanding of earning and a requirement of an eagle feather while participating in these Rites. The eagle feather stands for Indigenous knowledge and guidance in our spiritual ways.


The Wi-wanyang-wa-c'i-pi (Sundance Ceremony): The only participants allowed in the center will be Native People. The non-Native people need to understand and respect our decision. If there have been any unfinished commitments to the Sundance and non-Natives have concern for this decision; they must understand that we have been guided through prayer to reach this resolution. Our purpose for the Sundance is for the survival of the future generations to come, first and foremost. If the non-Natives truly understand this purpose, they will also understand this decision and know that by their departure from this Ho-c'o-ka (our sacred alter) is their sincere contribution to the survival of our future generations.


Please understand the Wi-wanyang-wa-c'i-pi Ceremony is not only taking place in the center (Ho-c'o-ka) with the dancers. Cremonial participation also depends on all the supporters on the outside of the arbor who should be in prayer. From the gate, to the cook shack, to the fire-keepers, to the supporters around the arbor, to even the moon camp, all people are still a part of this sacred ceremony.


There should be a preparation of 'Han-ble-c'i-ya' (vision quest) before you become a participant of the Sundance.


We shall go back into this ceremony with the proper protocols before and during the ceremony itself. Only those that have had the dream or direction through a ceremony, in concern of someone's health, should be dancing. Dancers should be secluded from outside participants, as to not be contaminated by other people's energy or thoughts. There should be absolutely no food or water during this four-day ceremony. If there are health problems, you should choose a person to finish your commitment. This ceremony is supposed to be for those that believe they can fulfill all required four days of the ceremony.


Han-ble-c'i-ya (Vision Quest): The vision quest should be only for Native People that have had the dream or vision. This Rite is also for the young men and women that reach the age of 12 years of age.


I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s'i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have earned this rite by completing Han-ble-c'i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c'i-pi.


The other four sacred rites of the Hun-ka ka-g'a (Making of a Relative), the Ta-pa kah'-g'o-ya (Throwing of the Sacred Ball), Wi-yan is'-na ti (Womanhood Ceremony) and the Na-g'i glu-ha (Keeping of the Spirit Ceremony), should be only handled by legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate (People).


It was also decided only legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate Medicine Bundle Keepers should handle any other ceremonies that are connected to our Ho-co-ka, such as the Lo-wa-pi and U-wi-pi ceremonies. There should be no price tag allowed to participate in any of our Sacred Ceremonies. The only protocol needed for a ceremony is to o-pa-g'i, meaning to offer your C'anupa or offer tobacco that has been prayed with, in which the Medicine Person accepts or not accept if he is not able to assist.


Medicine People do need to survive, and if people wish to give a monetary or any other gifts after they receive their help from ceremony, giving it from their hearts, I see no problem with that. We have to have faith that the Grandfathers will provide for our needs to survive in this modern society; whether the gift is money, blankets, food or anything that represents how much they appreciate the help. Some people can afford big gifts, some people cannot. It all balances out.


My position is only for the Seven Sacred Rites. I cannot dictate to our Medicine People who they allow to attend and support these Rites, in reference to non-Native People. I cannot dictate who they choose to doctor in their ceremonies. I cannot dictate where they travel to doctor.


I have my own personal feelings on who should be Keepers of our Sacred C'anupa (Pipe). The C'anupa is very sacred and the Keeper should first be given a dream and be of Native decent. This issue should be further discussed in our future meetings. The reason for my feelings is that I am aware the C'anupa has gone out to the International community and has been for sale. I know that most non-Native People do not understand the important protocols or have had the Traditional background to carry this sacred item properly. I am aware of women in their moon and men with blood on their hands (to take ones life intentionally) have been allowed to touch and carry the C'anupa. These serious situations were never to be allowed. I offer thanks to the non-Native People that have returned the C'anupa to our People, after I privately shared my concerns with them. I acknowledge their true sincerity in assisting our Nation to protect the survival of our Traditional way of life on behalf of our future generations. They have helped us bring back honor and respect to our sacred Ho-c'o-ka and C'anupa.


There was also discussion of only the Plains Tribal members to participate in the Ho-co-ka of the Wi-wanyang wa-c'i-pi and the Han-ble-c'i-ya Ceremonies. In the early 70's, Chief Fools Crow and my father Stanley Looking Horse decided to allow other Native Nations to participate in these Rites. Their reasons were based on the fact that most Nations have lost their ways through assimilation or lack of Teachers to teach their Indigenous ways. They honored and understood the unity of the First Nations People when different Tribes came to the aid of the Wounded Knee Occupation. I cannot undo their decision out of respect for our Chief and Elder. It has also been in our history that our Ancestors have respectfully shared our ceremonies with other Indigenous Nations.


The original teachings were that the Pipe Carrier should make their own C'anupa. There was an understanding of the sincere spiritual energy and the traditional values passed down through our bloodlines. All the values of compassion, love, honor, respect and truth are molded into the spiritual life they are creating. I hope that one day the future generations will again pick up this important protocol.


I would like to invite all our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nations to the next ceremony when I bring out the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Bundle. The dates in the fall will be announced. During this time we will place the 12 honorable compassionate men to assist in taking care of the concerns of the Sacred C'anupa. We will also discuss the protocols of the need to have a good mind and good heart to be a member of the Societies that will carry out these decisions in a respectful manner.


There will be another Protection of Ceremonies meeting to further discuss and address these serious issues in the future. This meeting will be sponsored by the Cheyenne Nation.


Once again, I thank all those that have offered prayers for these very serious issues to be discussed and handled in a good way.


In the Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!


Mitakuye Oyasin,


Arvol Looking Horse,
19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe




follow up statemnet:


   
Received April 26, 2003 Chief Arvol Looking Horse,

Received April 26, 2003



Mitakuye,


Since the statement of protecting our ceremonies, there have been many issues that have come out. Many people reporting on one another, many people arguing for the participation of non-natives, many non-natives telling me that I am a dictator of these ways. I see this as good and bad, because I now see since these reports, there is a much bigger problem then I ever knew in concern of the violations. Even more reports of deaths, charging, molestation and mixing of other beliefs, this must stop! These violations are affecting our children's health, many of our children ending their life with suicide. They do not feel that
ceremonial energy that was meant for them.


The People in these hoc'okas need to become stronger and connected with our children's needs to survive. This Bundle is our way the Creator gave us to help us survive with spirituality. It is all about transferring spiritual energy for health for your loved ones and thinking of 7 generations to come.


These prayers also go out to the world, for all Mitakuye Oyasin


I don't like the division, but again when was the last time we really united. I would rather see our people, even if there are only a few, unite strong and understand what this all about, to stand with me for these ways to be protected, so this Bundle can stay for our future generations. These sacred protocols were always there. The teacher is the Grandfathers.


There was nothing new in my statement. The only thing that changed was allowing other Native People whose Nations come from this same ma-co-c'e (land) to participate in Sundance and vision quest. Their Ancestors understood the values and traditions of ceremony in the connection to this Turtle Island. I have known in our history that we shared our ways with other Nations with respect. Our people would intermarry with other Native Nations, they would become a Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate. It was the same when our woman married another Nation's man, because we have the same teachings and bloodline to this ma-co-c'e.


I have heard native and non-native people fully understand my statement, yet many are misinterpreting the statement, because they don't want to see the truth and how it affects them. Many have wanted me to re-explain what all this means with the decision. The decision was based on many years of the Elders coming to me with dreams and concerns of what is going on. I waited to make another statement, to allow time to bring things out and open the eyes of the people to look at what is happening with our sacred ways. Just how serious these things have become, has now been revealed.


I will explain the things that people have been questioning. First, I understand that there have been people at the meeting that are talking about not agreeing with my decision. I announced my decision in Lakota that has a much larger meaning. During the meeting, that was taped, Sam Moves Camp stated that I make a decision after all the issues were discussed. Yet I am getting word from non-natives that they have talked to some Men at the meeting and they were told that they did not agree. Yet no one said anything after I spoke.


These Men are only a few. I guess they have learned how this affects them after the statement went out, so they backed away. Some of the people getting back to me are reporting the misuse of their friendship with these Men and other Men that call themselves Intercessors. They have questioned how they could agree with this decision even when they do these violations themselves. I still stand by these Lakota Men and have to work with them. I don't feed that negative energy. We are the Buffalo Nation and I will not report them, it is up to these people to correct these things themselves. The Buffalo teaching is to stand around one that has fallen and help them stand, these ways belong to them, even if they have become lost. The other need is to establish our strong Societies again to deal with these matters. Those Society men who are compassionate and walk in a respectful manner, yet strong in their energy with spiritual guidance to correct these violations in an honorable way.


I stated the only Government protection of our ways is the Eagle Feather Law, because we are dealing with non-native participation that do not honor our spiritual laws that are in place. This only law is when only enrolled members can own this sacred item for ceremonial use. The feather represents knowledge and you have to earn this for any part of our ceremonies. I realize that during the 1900's many of our people were taken away from their families. I have participated in providing a healing ceremony for adoptees.


Many are even full bloods and can not find their families. We can still find a way to provide our people in recognition of their right to their identity. Those that know their lineage can still prove their bloodline, our intermarrying with other Nations is not that old that it can not be found. In the mean time, we need to continue to focus on the protection that is available now. That first teaching of bloodline came when the first Keeper was told by Pte Skan Win that the Bundle must stay in the bloodline and passed down through a vision or dream from the Keeper. So it is the same teaching of our Native Bloodline with the ceremonies.


My position is the Keeper of the Bundle that consists of the 7 Sacred Rites I am being responsible to remind the Oyate that these ways are being violated. Even to a degree that in 1979, when we were bringing out the Sacred C'anupa, we received a warning in ceremony from the Grandfathers, that if these abuses continued, they would leave. We decided to put away the Bundle for 7 years from 1980-87 and get the word out that we were warned. We could be just another Nation, with no identity, no cultural language, no cultural way of life and we could probably loose our reservations and Sacred Sites.


Pte-Ska Win told us her spirit would stand upon Mother Earth in the future, these signs have been coming every year since 1994, with the births of the white buffalo calves. This is a blessing, to see the reminder that the Bundle she brought is still here for us, but yet it is also a warning. If you remember she came the first time when we were having a hard time of starvation, the buffalo disappeared, because we forgot the buffalo teachings of honoring the Creator in the way we walk. We have forgotten these important teachings once again.


I stated that I can not dictate to the Spiritual Leaders who they allow to attend and support ceremonies, who they feel they need to doctor or where they travel. This was to only remind that the white brothers and sisters, they can still attend and pray with us at a ceremony, if the Spiritual Leader allows this. Again it is the hoc'oka, the center, where our Oyate stand, that needs to be protected. This is also a reminder even with our own people, they need to prepare their life to stand in that alter and learn these protocols of a drug and alcohol free life. They must have a calling that is be interpreted in ceremony, to at least begin to learn the language and not give in to English. The language is very important in communicating with the Grandfathers. When I attended the UN Indigenous Day with representatives from Indigenous Nations from around the world, they discussed the criteria to maintain our voice in the protection of our Sacred Sites and cultural identity.


All agreed it was to maintain the language. Don't give up your ways because you don't know how to speak yet. You can learn as you go along and this sacred language will come back for your Tiospaye.


We are the only Indigenous Nation in the world that has opened our sacred ceremonials, of the alter, out to the public. Now we are seeing the abuse and violations. Anyone can read a book or get close to our ceremonial people, then go out and practice our ways without proper protocols.


Racism is when a race is not given a right because of color of skin in American Society. These sacred instructions were given to our People's Society, as many other Nations were given their own. If that were the case, then all the other Indigenous Nations that protect their sacred ways would be racist. Our Nation's protection of these sacred ways is prayers of strength for all Mitakuye Oyasin. Indigenous People understand these boundaries of protection. Iktomi is always there to trick us. It is our responsibility to protect the life of our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota, future generations. This gift belongs to them, from the Creator.


I would like to remind you of a time when we can all gather at the Sacred Sites, with "all Nations, all faiths, one prayer", no matter how we believe in the Creator, of World Peace and Prayer Day, June 21st.


This is a time when you find your own individual connection to our Unc'I Maka (Grandmother earth), from your heart, your own sacred site. We need to give thanks and offer our prayers for her to heal.


In a Sacred Hoop of life, where there is no beginning and no ending!


He-c'e-tu-ye-lo, Mitakuye Oyasin,


Chief Arvol Looking Horse,
19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Pipe

---------
notice"We are the only Indigenous Nation in the world that has opened our sacred ceremonials, of the alter, out to the public."

all he is after is the stopping of the abuse . And if you in anyway are saying Ben Carnes is abusing then

Perhaps you are wadeing in waters that will go far over your head Daniel sir
 Wanbli
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 12:51:26 am
i`m danielle,thank you....no need to call me sir,i`m a female. what you posted is the exact same thing that plenty of folks have seen and it`s what i read last year.....like i said.And no,i`m hardly wading in anything over my head.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: educatedindian on April 05, 2008, 01:04:33 am
Danielle, you do seem determined to beat this to death, and Carnes's supporters are as well.

Once again, if you have anything solid, let's see it. No innuendos, come straight out with it. And have hard proof or quit wasting our time.

To Carnes's supporters: You gotta be given credit for persistence, and in one case for being so overzealous that you acted as bad as anything Danielle did.

Apparently one thread where Carnes was already complimented as a serious activist and NOT an exploiter wasn't enough. You had to start a second one.

Apparently the accusations with no proof being deleted in that other thread wasn't enough, because I still kept getting rude, demanding, insulting email from that one Carnes supporter who also felt I should be at her beck and call over at Indianz.

And to top it off, that same person then felt the need to smear my name at Indianz. That doesn't help Carnes at all, it just made her look petty and badly informed.

I think I speak for many when I say I'd appreciate it both if you'd not do as Danielle has done, and also actually take part in the forum the same way everyone else does, putting our heads together to find out what we can about exploiters we're asked about. Not just being a cheering section for Carnes.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 01:11:26 am
I didn`t start this thread...and i just sent an email to frederica.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: earthw7 on April 05, 2008, 02:48:26 am
while all I have to say is that the protection order does not say other native people can't participate. It say Non-Indians.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Mvskoke.Lady on April 05, 2008, 04:52:41 am
[Further smears, defamation, and lies removed.]

You can terminate my membership here now.  I didn't find satisfaction from this place the first time I joined and darn sure don't see it doing any good now. 

On a final note:  Give Ben a break.  He's a good person that is leading many people by providing them with a fine example of how to live spiritually.   This place is for New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans, of which Ben is none.   Mvto

[Al's note: She's been removed for her lies, and for this threatening email sent to me.

"Now you have made another enemy IRL if that's how you are going to act.  Fine."

MvskokeLady certainly has not helped Carnes one bit with her bitter, abusive, and demanding behavior. She does not reflect well on either Carnes or Carnes's supporters.]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Ben on April 05, 2008, 05:56:29 am
I want to thank everyone who have rallied to support me and show that I have widespread legitimate support for what I do.

First, I want to point out that I am disappointed that the person who first dragged my name onto this board did not have the courtesy to contact me with any questions they may have had. NAFPS, as I understand it is not a sole authority on who is a fraud or exploiting traditional Native spirituality, but it can cause harm or suspicion to a person. Maybe this incident will cause NAFPS to review its policy and will contact the "accused' before any disparaging remarks can be made public on the board.

Since there was a broad and vague accusation or insinuation that my work and non-profit organization is not on the level, I would like to know exactly and to the point what it is that constitutes fraud or exploitation? No where on my website does it advertise for ceremonies, instead, it points out that we would prefer to utilize traditional values and philosophies based upon our Native spirituality to address issues or chemical abuse, prisoners support and working with youth at risk. As an organization we still have a long ways to go to create the infrastructure we need to begin providing direct and in-direct services.  So is planning to develop programs to help our people -  now constitute fraud or exploitation?

Another issue is that a "woodland Indian" cannot Sun Dance or be a Sun Dance Chief is a great surprise to me. In the late 60's and early 70's, after the formation of the American Indian Movement, it was Henry Crow Dog who told the AIM warriors that in order for their movement to be successful, they needed to have a spiritual foundation. This was the time when relatives from many Nations began to participate in the sweat lodge, Pipe and Sun Dance ceremonies. As a result, many of the AIM warriors who were eventually placed in state and federal prison began to make a demand for their traditional practices all across the country. This is how the Lakota ceremonies became so prevalent across the country. As for my people, we have had our cultural and spiritual evolution so disrupted due to earlier european contact that what remains of our ceremonies is now more of a public display.

For many other Native people who have lost their ceremonies due to the colonial occupation of our homelands and assimilation tactics by missionaries and the u.s. governments, we have all been thankful for a way of life that has helped our own lives.

As for Looking Horse's statement, I remember the protection of ceremonies statement. I also remember the statements by Chief Leonard Crow Dog, Chief Reggie Little Brave, and others who did not agree with the "Protection of Ceremonies" statement. I  also remember being asked by many other practitioners of the Sun Dance what I thought. I expressed that until the Lakota people came to a consensus, we should continue our prayers to the Creator. I have made a commitment to this way of life and no man has the right to stand between the Creator and myself. I can't take credit for that statement, Leonard Peltier made that statement in 1990 or 91 when a Sun Dancers vigil was held in Washington, D.C.  As I see it from my experience, I pray and the Creator lets me know what I must do and whenever I follow my directions, some really wonderful things have happened. So I know the Creator supports me in what I do. If anyone thinks the Creator has lied to me, the they need to take it up with some cedar, prayer and a lot respect, cause you may not get the answer you were expecting.

If each of us believed in the power of the Creator and the spirits as we all claim, then we should know that they will deal with the exploiters and frauds that has caused so many people harm. Don't get me wrong Mr. Carroll, I agree that there should be some source to allow people to be forewarned in the event a well known and proven fake preys upon the innocents, but to allow someone to be named publicly without their knowledge is unforgivable and irresponsible. I hope that the standards utilized by NAFPS will be reviewed, and that maybe they will contact me personally to ascertain the validity of the poster who brought this up. If the poster had cared enough to contact me, I would have been happy to find someone whom she may know personally, and a Lena Lenape family, in New Jersey, such as the Ridgway family.

In any event, now that I have finally had an opportunity to offer my comments here, I considered this thread at an end, and would hope that if there were any further questions, I would receive a personal message from NAFPS or Danielle. I can't promise that I will reply this weekend, but possibly next weekend as I work out of town and don't have access to a computer.

And much thanks and appreciation to my cheering section to know that I have so many relatives and family who have my back.

Ben Carnes
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 09:51:12 am
ridgeway is a name known here,yes.they are nanticoke lenape not lenape.there`s lots of them and they may even be nanticoke..not of the unilatchtigo. i`m mixed with both. you`re talking about the nanticoke-lenape of bridgeton.  i am not an exploiter here,mr carnes,nor do i ask for money, like i said in my message to you,i will not give you any of my personal information..that`s where i put my foot down.my people have been moved at least 20 times and it`s not unusual if we don`t know each other. we`re quite scattered. last time i saw so many of us together was at a symposium. i`m not a pow wow person and if folks don`t want to stomp dance i`m not doing it.i do come from a very close knit family who has been in the homeland since way,way back.

kay,i hope i`m done in this thread....



Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: educatedindian on April 05, 2008, 12:47:01 pm
I want to thank everyone who have rallied to support me and show that I have widespread legitimate support for what I do....

 NAFPS, as I understand it is not a sole authority on who is a fraud or exploiting traditional Native spirituality, but it can cause harm or suspicion to a person. Maybe this incident will cause NAFPS to review its policy and will contact the "accused' before any disparaging remarks can be made public on the board.

...there was a broad and vague accusation or insinuation that my work and non-profit organization is not on the level,

...I would like to know exactly and to the point what it is that constitutes fraud or exploitation?

Ben Carnes

As you can see by looking several posts above, one of your supporters did not do you credit at all, and was nothing but demanding, insulting, and herself helped spread lies about myself and this forum on another forum. That didn't help your case, esp her melodramatic claim that she will now consider me an "enemy". With friends like that.... you are not being helped.

Nowhere has NAFPS ever claimed to be a sole authority, only trying to do our best to help on these matters.

If we waited on every person we investigate to respond first, they'd quickly realize they could block criticism that way. After all, nearly all the people brought to our attention as possible exploiters ARE clearly exploiters. Your suggestion would only harm people by allowing exploiters to keep abusing and keep possible victims from being warned.

There never was a "broad" accusation. There was a single person making accusations who has never been able to back them up.

For what makes someone a fraud, see the Who We Are and What We Do section at the intro at www.newagefraud.org.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 01:26:04 pm
i`m going to another site where i know i won`t be used as your scapegoat.i` came with a question just like you said we could. one of those allegations you didn`t give me a chance to prove.you gathered all this notion that it`s danielle`s fault on 3 posts from me.. i don`t think you`re my enemy but if you don`t want to hear me out i`ll get the job done....i got work to do and you won`t even let me get it done.it.

you are your`re own enemy.

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: earthw7 on April 05, 2008, 01:47:55 pm
Hi Ben
I did not see anyone condemn you here,
the woman who brought the claim and the woman who is defending Homegrown seem to have issues with each other. It is your friend home that has brought this issues to other boards.
1. it is nice you follow my ways
2. It has been said because of what AIM did to us we are struck with the tribe being a part of our spirituality. We accept that just as long as you know your own culture and do yours best to relearn your culture.
3. It is wrong for OUTSIDER to decide to divide our nation and our issues further.
4. It is because the outsider causing problem for us we were forced to come to these decision.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 02:10:22 pm
go standing rock!! them hunkpapa come through for themselves everytime ! i gotta send some heart felt thanks to the inspiration and knowledge i gained from harold one feather.........sitting bull can be right proud of that one....and earthw7,you are every bit as awesome.

hey ben,my own ceremony of the bighouse is extinct but i knwo every move.even our dead visionaries and holymen can hold it together in what they left us with.........stop using them lame excuses and that aim crutch....do some research on frank speck.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on April 05, 2008, 03:00:20 pm
hey ben,my own ceremony of the bighouse is extinct but i knwo every move.even our dead visionaries and holymen can hold it together in what they left us with.........stop using them lame excuses and that aim crutch....do some research on frank speck.
                  It is not exactly "extinct", its been mixed. But I let you research that one. I think that is part of the problem. At the start a question was asked, and answered. NO wrong doing was found. It should have been dropped, unless the person asking had substantial information backing up their thought. But if they had they wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Then it took of in another direction involving long standing personal issues with another person. That was stopped. I know nothing of these My Spaces, 360, Red Nation Society and whatever else there is, but what occurs there should stay there and not be dragged all over the internet. We sure do not wish to be used someone's personal battleground.  And it seems recently we are seeing more of this from people in these groups. I am not interested in "Indian Mud Wrestling", to quote MP. So I strongly HOPE this is the end of it. Thanks. And that is my opinion.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 05, 2008, 04:46:22 pm
I am constantly amazed everyday how we choose to divide ourselves . Is there any way we can be ever heard as one native voice if we always find a reason to divide ourselves? Is it necessary , other than ego , to pound the chest and say who is the reddest? This thread and it seems this venue is more about division than unity . There are some folks walkin right now . Do they quarrel over who is the reddest or do they just walk side by side? All of this seems to have started over personal conflict that has nothing to do with Ben. Cant personal conflict be handled without trying to divide our people .Are those personal conflicts more important than the seventh generation ?
If we ever are to have any hope of our people having a unified voice for the good of all our people we have to learn to stop this .  Behavior that sets us one against the other makes none of our relations happy.  We have to learn to ignore the ignorant . 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 05, 2008, 05:06:01 pm
i`m in south jersey so that aspect of the culture  is extinct to me.......i remember you saying about revival when i came here about dragonswan....long name he had.. hmmm,maybe it was the sweat thread that ray messed up.if i make any mistakes it`s not to be malicious or intentional b/c i understand the importance of accuracy but yup,i make mistakes.... one other problem i have is with the language. only 3 of us have an interest and we don`t get much time together to hone skills..so,i`m making it a habit to pray out loud to creator in the language. i have all the goodies from touching leaves. i found a  college in nebraska with some of nora thompson dean`s herbal instruction...i need to know if it`s authentic tho....i guess i`ll give jim rementer(spelling ?) a shout for that project.maybe he can steer me through it.

thank you,frederica.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Chahta38 on April 05, 2008, 09:41:36 pm
I don't know Ben personally but he has been helping someone very close to my heart who was in much need of spiritual counciling and guidance.  He has helped and encouraged my friend to become more active in our communities himself.  So I just wanted to say, Thank you Ben for your time, kindness, generosity and devoting yourself to helping so many.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 06, 2008, 12:52:01 am
I have a hard time understanding the hostility people some people seem to have towards the information that is provided on this message board. Especially when it is people who seem to care about maintaining the traditions in a good way.

There has been a few instances where I have seen people anonymously post personal experiences that may or may not be true. I can see where it is tough to know what is the right thing to do about these sort of reports, when there is so much abuse happening and vulnerable people could be seriously hurt , and people often honestly feel scared of retaliation if they warn people about a bad experience.  I think the moderators here have a really difficult job...

I agree what is posted on any message board in cyberspace needs to be critically evaluated, but I think most people know this and take what they read on a message board written by an anonymous person with a grain of salt.  If something is alleged about someone which has no truth in it, I think most people will trust their own experience with a person over one or two anonymous posts on a message board. Peoples reactions to this situation are a good example of that.

A while back a thread was started to discuss some of these hostile feelings - though that thread was more geared towards people who support exploiters, than this situation;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0)

If people want to discuss how things are done here, maybe that thread, or a new one, would be a place to talk about it...

I think most of the people who post here really try to make sure what is said is fair and accurate.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: lrc15 on April 06, 2008, 03:05:48 am
My friend David Hill (Choctaw) and from Oklahoma, asked me to post this for him since he does not have internet access:


Dear Dani and webmaster:

I am responding as a person who has read your dissertation about Ben Carnes, and I assume you put it out there to get a response.  Categorically speaking Dani, if you did some research about Choctaws or read some of the accounts of the old missionaries, the Choctaws did Sundance.  Furthermore, because of the disruption of our culture and individual Nations, Indian people have been relocated and scattered throughout America.  And, in our endeavors to survive, we have blended many of our truths that were usually kept to ourselves.  Since we had a common enemy, we used common solutions.  Indian People have always sought to use whatever we found to be truth.  Some of those truths came from other cultures or other parts of the world and in many cases, were validated by our own experiences.  Some, have even adopted other religions or traditions such as Christianity, albeit they are not themselves Jewish, Hebrew, or Israeli.  That does not make them phonies but does allow them to share truths that improve the quality of their life. 

In reference to Ben being a Chief, traditionally and historically, a chief among Indian People was a leader.  They manifested themselves by their leadership and service to the People.  They did not have the power to tell anyone to do anything other than perhaps in dealing with their own family circle.  Over a period of time, the People referred to them in their own language that meant Chief or leader.  In Ben’s language, the term would be “Miko???.  Some tribes went so far as to develop a system for recognizing that persons willingness and natural ability to take care of the People.  Today, we as Indian People have lost elements of our language.  At one time we had an intertribal sign language that was used to communicate.  However, today, as anyone can see, we are now using English for the most part.  That does not make us phony or any less Indian.  Usually when someone comes into our Circle, they ask who is in charge.  They ask “who is your Chief??? or “who is your leader??? or “who is your Miko??? or whatever language is used in that circle.  It takes a strong man to step forward and claim that responsibility.  I am sure there are some who claim ownership of the title “Chief???  or “leader??? and are neither.  In my experience, Ben Carnes is not one of those people.

 I know for a fact that Ben Carnes spent time in prison during his earlier life.  During his stay in prison, he educated himself to what his rights were and to the rights of others who were confined in that environment.  For many years the prison systems, school systems, and other institutions have systematically tried to eliminate Indian culture in any way they could. One of the ways that was done in the prison system was to shave the heads of Indian People and refuse to let them grow their hair long.  This is contrary to many of our tribal cultures and religious practices.  Ben stepped forward and took responsibility to change that within the prison system.  In taking that responsibility, he was physically and judicially harassed and often put in solitary confinement.  But, in his quest for spiritual freedom within the system, he manifested himself as a leader to such a degree that the State of Oklahoma gave him the Oklahoma State Human Rights Award.  He was successful in his endeavor to champion the rights of Indian People to practice their religion in the ways that had been denied them.  When Ben was released, he continued his path in trying to help other Indian People working with different organizations, such as the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee, as well as many others. 

I personally knew Chief Fools Crow and Chief Billy Tayak and have personally danced at their respective Sundances as well as other places around the country.  I have also attended Sundances where Ben Carnes officiated and observed him taking responsibility for making Sundance happen for those who were endeavoring to follow that path.  I don’t know how many religious practices you are familiar with, (i.e. churches, temples, Sundances, synagogues) but if you paid close attention and were somewhat familiar with them, you would have noticed people from many different ethnic backgrounds in attendance.  Oftentimes, the people leading the service are not from the racial or ethnic background of the country of origin for that service.  In attending the many different Sundances that I’ve experienced, I have personally observed many people on different levels of spiritual progression and commitment.  We all have our different levels of growth and speed of progression.  I deeply appreciate the people who facilitate those ceremonies.  That is a most difficult task and in most cases, these people are referred to as Sundance Chiefs or Sundance leaders.  The main objective of these ceremonies is to talk to God and get a positive answer.  That is what a Sundance Chief or leader is supposed to do.  Having said that, I want to say that being a Sundancer is another issue itself.  It too has its varied degrees of progression and responsibility.  It is as varied as the people who say…. “I am a Sundancer???. 

I have known Ben for many years.  It has been my observation that in his heart of hearts, he does the very best he can in facilitating the Sundance and endeavoring to enhance his personal experience, understanding, and knowledge to better facilitate the Sundancers who look to him for help and guidance. 

In reference to a self-sustaining community and seeking donations to bring that about, I find no fault with Ben’s endeavor in that area.  I have visited his home and I know for a fact that he works for a living.  I know for a fact that he does not live an ostentatious life style.  His home is a very humble adobe structure and aside from the work he does to take care of his family, he spends the remainder of his time helping others and preparing for each years gathering for the Sundance.  In seeking to develop a self-sustaining community, Ben is following the prophecies of our People that date back to pre-Columbian times; prophecies that told us of the coming of the non-Indian people, the scattering of our People, of great cataclysmic occurrences, as well as global warning and other calamities.  The prophecies tell us to develop self-sustaining communities in mountainous areas.  Many of the signs of these prophecies are now coming to pass.  I see Ben doing what he has always done – rising to the occasion.  It has been my observation that if you are not being critiqued or talked about, then you’re probably not doing anything. 

Dani, I do not mean to hurt your feelings or demean your concerns.  I only hope to educate you about a really good person that I have known for many years.   He lives in the mountains and has stepped forward to put together a self-sustaining community and in some circles, he would be called a “leader??? or “Miko???. 

Many of us have come a long way from our traditional cultural origin of a nature-based, self-sustaining community and in the same manner, we have a long way to go to return.  I have no doubt if we were suddenly thrown in to an absolute survival mode, we would rise to the occasion.  However, in developing a self-sustaining community, many of the People seeking that direction, like the Sundance, will be on different levels of experience, progression, and strengths.  We use English where we once used sign language.  Likewise, in this time period, we are using the resources available to us to correct some of the damage that has been done to us as a People.  Resources of all kinds will help this endeavor.  At this point in time, monetary resources are one of those tools.  It is a reality much like the reality of using English to communicate intertribally.  Perhaps in your understanding of Ben’s vision, you mistook self-sustaining for meaning primitive.  In reality, it meant “self-sufficient???.  And in technical terms….off the grid. 

Dani, I hope this helps in some way to quell the misunderstanding that you have felt toward Ben and others.  I appreciate the fact that your statements have inadvertently brought a measure of understanding to others who perhaps had the same concerns.  May the Great Spirit bless you in the ways you need.  And when I go to the Sundance this year, I will remember you in a good way. 

David Hill

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: lrc15 on April 06, 2008, 03:07:04 am
Dani and Webmaster:

I’ll keep this short.  If more people had the heart of Ben Carnes and Cat (his wife), the world would be a better place.  I don’t know anyone more generous or more willing to open their home and hearts to others.   To envision a self-sustaining community for the People and be willing to sacrifice your own comfort and security to have it is the most Earth-thoughtful thing one can do.    If you don’t know Ben and Cat Carnes, perhaps you should.  Your life would be greatly enriched.

Linda C.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Walks on April 06, 2008, 04:10:33 am
I would first like to say that my post in the previous thread had absolutely nothing to do with any goings on anywhere other than on that particular thread.

In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.

Am I misguided in my inturpretation?

Secondly, getting back on topic, I must admit, when I first heard of Ben Carnes, I was a bit skeptical, as I am with about anyone I don't know personally, so, it is my way to not take others word to much to heart, but I contacted Ben personally and asked a few questions, but mostly just conversed with him and paid close attention to what he had to say. I conversed with him via email and phone several times, During which time, I had a very dear friend who was going through a very trying crises. Ben and I spoke of this at length and he helpped me to be able to help my friend and get her into a very good frame of mind and get through the issue much easier.

My friend is one who I care for very very much and I will forever be indepted to Ben for counciling me so in turn I could help my friend.

Soon after this event circumstances arose that offered the oppertunity to travel to and be a guest in Ben and Cats home.
Consider the fact that they knew very little about me as well.
They did not hesitate to bring me into their home and extend hospitality above and beyond any I could have reason to expect.

I left there after a three week stay while talking, working, planning, and joining in ceramony with Ben and others, with absolutely no further doubts in my mind that he is in fact one of the very few in this world today who I feel I could trust with anything or anyone I hold dear to my heart.

I was so impressed with the whole experiance that my intentions are to relocate to that area within the next couple months and join Ben and others in their work and in fulfilling our dreams.

I will say again, in not only the case of The Carnes, but with anyone when possible, don't rely on the opinions of others as your sole source of referance, make an effort yourself, by introducing yourself to them and finding out first hand what they are all about.

I'm not saying it is wrong to ask others questions, but simply let first hand knowledge be your main goal, augmented by others wisdom or research.

In closing, I would again like to apologize that some of the bad will followed me here. It was never my intention for it to do so.
I find it hard to believe that anyone reading this, if you saw a blatant lie posted about yourself here that you would fail to address it, regardless of any past history.

I apreciate the moderators of this site giving Ben Carnes and his friends their chance to speak and introduce Ben and Eagle Mountain to you all , and have you see the goodness of them both.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 06:17:19 am
Dani and Webmaster:

I’ll keep this short.  If more people had the heart of Ben Carnes and Cat (his wife), the world would be a better place.  I don’t know anyone more generous or more willing to open their home and hearts to others.   To envision a self-sustaining community for the People and be willing to sacrifice your own comfort and security to have it is the most Earth-thoughtful thing one can do.    If you don’t know Ben and Cat Carnes, perhaps you should.  Your life would be greatly enriched.

Linda C.

i been 32 years without ben carnes and i`m doing great...i don`t want to know him. no thank you. his judgement with friends is very much in question.

[Al's note: Unproven smears removed.]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Ben on April 06, 2008, 06:48:02 am
Again thanks to those who have posted additional comments. I've received a couple of msgs. from Dani and still nothing specific about what is so wrong to help our people. Instead, it seems her resentment towards me is based upon my friendship with Walks rather than anything she has insinuated that I am alleged to have done.

I don't feel that there is anything productive to spend anymore of our energies upon. I only want to state that I've tried to engage Dani in a mature and intelligent discussion to clarify any concerns she may have in her mind, but to no avail. Instead, she made some type of threat that she would pursue this vendetta against my website at www.eaglecouncil.org. I am not sure if she intends to hack my site or to attempt to drag negative attention to it. In any event, I will forward her comments to Mr. Carroll and to the FBI's office to establish intent should something occur to my website or if we receive harassing phone calls without the caller identifying him or herself.

In closing, I want to say that I consider Walks, John Jonas, a brother and a friend whom I have found to be an honorable and trustworthy person whom I am happy to have had sat at my table and under my roof. No amount of misdirected futility to drag me into further pointless diatribes is going to change that.

All My Relations, Ben
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 07:29:08 am
I would first like to say that my post in the previous thread had absolutely nothing to do with any goings on anywhere other than on that particular thread.

In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.

Am I misguided in my inturpretation?

Secondly, getting back on topic, I must admit, when I first heard of Ben Carnes, I was a bit skeptical, as I am with about anyone I don't know personally, so, it is my way to not take others word to much to heart, but I contacted Ben personally and asked a few questions, but mostly just conversed with him and paid close attention to what he had to say. I conversed with him via email and phone several times, During which time, I had a very dear friend who was going through a very trying crises. Ben and I spoke of this at length and he helpped me to be able to help my friend and get her into a very good frame of mind and get through the issue much easier.

My friend is one who I care for very very much and I will forever be indepted to Ben for counciling me so in turn I could help my friend.

Soon after this event circumstances arose that offered the oppertunity to travel to and be a guest in Ben and Cats home.
Consider the fact that they knew very little about me as well.
They did not hesitate to bring me into their home and extend hospitality above and beyond any I could have reason to expect.

I left there after a three week stay while talking, working, planning, and joining in ceramony with Ben and others, with absolutely no further doubts in my mind that he is in fact one of the very few in this world today who I feel I could trust with anything or anyone I hold dear to my heart.

I was so impressed with the whole experiance that my intentions are to relocate to that area within the next couple months and join Ben and others in their work and in fulfilling our dreams.

I will say again, in not only the case of The Carnes, but with anyone when possible, don't rely on the opinions of others as your sole source of referance, make an effort yourself, by introducing yourself to them and finding out first hand what they are all about.

I'm not saying it is wrong to ask others questions, but simply let first hand knowledge be your main goal, augmented by others wisdom or research.

In closing, I would again like to apologize that some of the bad will followed me here. It was never my intention for it to do so.
I find it hard to believe that anyone reading this, if you saw a blatant lie posted about yourself here that you would fail to address it, regardless of any past history.

I apreciate the moderators of this site giving Ben Carnes and his friends their chance to speak and introduce Ben and Eagle Mountain to you all , and have you see the goodness of them both.

 igmuska invited me here b/c he knows i`m going to represent the best i can. he`s aware of all my internet activities not just myspace..it`s really hard to find good people but we hold on to each other when we do.

now i just about covered the myspace issues....don`t go bringing them here anymore. you can come here and give props to ben carnes til hell freezes over but i`m still going to find out for myself. anything you say only added more fuel to the fire. it`s the only purpose you served here.

i wish you well in whatever you do,like i said before..


[quote walks] In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.[ end quote]

[Al's note: More unproven smears removed.]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 07:35:58 am
oh and,thanks for that reference momma_porcupine....i missed that one the times i`m here lurking. :)
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 07:50:00 am
Again thanks to those who have posted additional comments. I've received a couple of msgs. from Dani and still nothing specific about what is so wrong to help our people. Instead, it seems her resentment towards me is based upon my friendship with Walks rather than anything she has insinuated that I am alleged to have done.

I don't feel that there is anything productive to spend anymore of our energies upon. I only want to state that I've tried to engage Dani in a mature and intelligent discussion to clarify any concerns she may have in her mind, but to no avail. Instead, she made some type of threat that she would pursue this vendetta against my website at www.eaglecouncil.org. I am not sure if she intends to hack my site or to attempt to drag negative attention to it. In any event, I will forward her comments to Mr. Carroll and to the FBI's office to establish intent should something occur to my website or if we receive harassing phone calls without the caller identifying him or herself.

In closing, I want to say that I consider Walks, John Jonas, a brother and a friend whom I have found to be an honorable and trustworthy person whom I am happy to have had sat at my table and under my roof. No amount of misdirected futility to drag me into further pointless diatribes is going to change that.

All My Relations, Ben
i don`t have the skills and have never done it but i know where that accusation stems from nor do i have time for any of that other nensense. i have no reason to hack or call you. the only things i wanted to know about you i brought here.

carry on with whatever you want to do but. my computer has been hacked,but i haven`t gotten any phone calls to harrass. i`m not telling how we found out i was hacked and who did it....... that sucks and to invade my privacy. well,i`m leave that alone unless i need it.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Chahta38 on April 06, 2008, 08:21:37 am
It's painfully obvious what this is all about and it has to do with your issues with Walks and absolutely noting to do with Ben, except for the fact that he is a friend of Walks.  That's what you do.  Because you can no longer get to John over the past year, you attack his family his friends.  You are well known for this spiteful behavior.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 09:13:27 am
i came here with a question about ben carnes. now can we get off the walks drama? you`re not coming here to keep on throwing crap at me. i came here to focus on newagefraud in 2006. i didn`t bring no drama with me...... that`s only words on messageboards and a waste of time. now will you people move on,please.

on ben carnes,i wouldn`t have had interest in his vision with or without any one named walks or john jonas. even being satisfied that the man is not fraud and i pretty much know now that he isn`t,it`s for people who need him not me...isn`t it clear enough now?

throwing drama into it and attacks on me i know is part of keeping someone from being productive but it`s there so you got to face it. it`s just one of the obstacles of an activist.

hey i passed the test many a times. i know how to put cover on dani`s name. you been throwing all that crap at me and it just bounces off.

please don`t hack the man`s website and try blaming it on me. he don`t need that drama any more than i do.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 06, 2008, 12:26:10 pm
Its obvious that this thread has been taken over once again by personal stuff that has nothing to do with Ben . Ben is a good man .. David Hill is a good man .I have seen both of these mens works for more than a decade and a half. The validity of their work is manifest in the real world. Its Obvious that Dani isnt interested in Ben and his work for the people . Only in pursuing personal agendas that have nothing to do with Ben other than a common acquaintance . Let the thread continue ABOUT Eagle Mountain and in doing so ignore the ignorant. Wasting time on the personal takes away from any knowledge on the actual subject which is a good one.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: danielle on April 06, 2008, 01:39:24 pm
if that was your intention my name wouldn`t even be in your post. long as it`s not mentioned again you can give ben carnes all the support you have to. just keep any reference to me out of it.

dr carroll,ican`t see any need for a support thread and agree it`s not the purpose of this board.if you at any time decide to lock this thread...i`m going to thank you ahead of time.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: wanbli on April 06, 2008, 02:41:31 pm
Goooood. Now perhaps the discussion about Eagle Mountain may continue. But locking a thread because one person is done with it seems a little out of line .
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on April 06, 2008, 03:06:27 pm
Yep, because Ben Carnes hasn't been in question since day one. And apologies should be in order, but that's beyond my reach.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on April 06, 2008, 11:14:40 pm

 I am new to this site, and don't want to be speaking too much here yet until I get to know everyone.

  Still I would just like to say a few things here on this topic.

 A while back over on myspace I was reading a bulletin that was posted by an old friend of mine named Glenda Deer who most of you know. This bulletin was a piece written by Ben Carnes. I don't even recall what it was about now, but I do remember thinking what an awesome read it was. So I reposted the bulletin up, and those who read it from me felt the same way. I then spoke to Glenda about the bulletin and she  informed me that Mr.Carnes was on myspace and that anyone who liked what he had to say including myself should contact him, and see about getting added to his homepage. Well I did inform people they had that option and many of them took it from what I understand.  I myself did not send him a request to be a friend, but later on he did to me for what reason I don't know.

 I have spoken to him via myspace email a while back, and it was a great discussion. I enjoyed speaking with the man greatly. It only further increased my deep admiration for him. I have not spoken to him since, but I still enjoy reading what he has to say.

 There are a few people in this thread I admit I know of from other places, and we mutually dislike each other. However  I will concede that I fully agree with them in their support of Mr.Carnes. There is a feeling you get when speaking to some people, sometimes good sometimes bad. I have always felt nothing but good things about the man, and I know those here who know him or have worked with him in person know the truth that he is a good man doing a lot for the native community.

 That is all I have to say on this.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: glendadeer on April 07, 2008, 12:04:28 am
Good evening people....

I came on to check my messages and e-mails as I have been busy and have been offline since Thursday....I just returned home from a 2 day ceremony..we sat up all night praying for our people...ALL our Indian people...I was very humbled by the words of my elders, Uncles, Grandpa's, Grandma's, Fathers, and other relations...


People who know me, know what I stand for and what I am about...I am a simple Indian woman with a great love for my people...no matter what tribe...I am not book smart, but I am far from stupid...I was raised to respect others...I take a stand when I see wrongs being done...I learn things everyday...I read what is going on in Indian Country and I feel we have a lot of battles we continue to fight because of ignorance in the world...and I fight these battles to make a difference for the future of our people...for our children and grandchildren...and I will speak out if I feel it is wrong...

Being Indian is hard in this day and age...as it has been said before, being Indian is more than just a CDIB card...we are losing our traditional ways and it truly saddens me...I am not Lakota, so I cannot speak about the ways of the Sun Dance but I have attended and have respect for those ways.  What I can speak about it the charactor of Ben Carnes, and I have always had good thoughts and words for him. Ben has been an activist fighting for Indian people for as long as I can remember. I know Ben and his wife Cat personally and I consider Ben a brother. Ben is very genuine and sincere about his caring and concerns for all of us, as Indian people. Anyone who has ever heard him speak knows that he speaks from his heart. He is a Sun Dance Chief and runs a Sun Dance, and I am nobody to question this. I have never, ever heard anything negative or anyone ever challenging his role until this recent post. If Ben was a non Indian, and made these claims perhaps I would question this as well, but he is Indian.  If I felt his words were not genuine, yes I would question him even if he was Indian.  I see alot of other organizations seeking donations, and I see no wrong in this.  It is your choice to give. If you have questions about where or how the money is spent, ask the group. There is no need to publically question it unless you received a answer from them which you have concerns about or no answer from them at all. "Not feeling" it is not a reason.

I personally know David Hill and others who have commented on here as well. David is another good man, with rightous intentions.  I do not know "Walks" personally but I have read some of his postings here and others places I "lurk"...and I did recently after all of this, add him as a friend on another site. He is a friend of my brother Bens and family, therefore I trust and consider him a friend as well. I look forward to meeting him.

I try and stay away from drama...but I did send the Administator a few messages regarding all of this, along with my opinion on this matter. Like I said before, I am nobody to be questioning anyone but when it comes to family I do feel I have to say my 2 cents worth. One thing I have learned is that the internet can be a wonderful thing...it can also do a lot of damage...We are all different and unique in our own way...and we do not always have to agree with each other...and we, as Indian people always show respect to each other, in order to get respect...one must first show respect....

NAFPS is a good group....a lot of sharing of ideas going on... a place one can bring attention to true fakes, and nuagers out there...and I have learned different things on this site...and I enjoy sharing my ideas...

I am not a writer, and I tend to ramble....I am tired and have had no sleep...but I felt I had to add my say...and I appreciate your time...


I am not a Ben Carnes supporter...I am his sister.


Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: earthw7 on April 07, 2008, 06:17:43 pm
Thank you Ben for your kind words and Welcome
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: chiefytiger on September 10, 2008, 02:40:37 am
Hau !!! I too know that Ben is a good man and I just got word this evening from a good source that Mr Kenny Frost is going after Ben for having a SunDance in Colorado ,He is questioning who taught Ben the Sacred ways of the SUNDANCE ... He states that hes going to prove that he's a fraud .  Maybe anyone who knows Mr Frost should let him know that Ben is a respected Sundance leader and someone who cares for the ppls .... like he wanted to prove that Arvol LookingHorse sold the Sacred pipe to the Japanese. But i have respect for Ben as a man an Sundance Leader ....
ChiefyTiger
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: zoi lightfoot on November 07, 2008, 03:28:19 pm
Just so we are all aware Ben Carnes is the current spokesperson for Leonard Peltier,for the same reason I am aware of the Brother Dave Hill,both decent,focused and great Bros I sure as hell would want at my back if i needed help.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on November 22, 2008, 05:38:37 pm
I am posting not only for myself but also for “Mvskoke.Lady???, who cannot post in here anymore due to this very thread .. she asked me to include her in this posting .. .. ..
 it is important to admit when we are wrong! ..

“Mvskoke.Lady??? and myself both posted in support of ben carnes when this thread was first started in april 2008 .. in light of the great many things that have come to our personal attention about ben carnes, in the many months since this thread began .. we are both now adamantly retracting our previous support of this man, his wife and his organization, as have many others ..

speaking for myself, i simply cannot condone any actions that harm our peoples! .. we ALL have to speak up against the things that we know to be wrong and stand up for what we know to be right .. i had considered ben carnes as a brother and did not come to this decision lightly .. it was difficult for me to come to this decision about someone i had considered a friend and a brother .. yet even when someone that is close to you is doing things and saying things that you absolutely cannot condone, you must speak up! .. our first duty should always be to our peoples as a whole, and even if it is a friend that we see as causing harm to our peoples we are duty bound to speak out against that person ..  no matter how difficult that is for us to do .. .. ..

i will not get into a public argument concerning this man, his words and his actions .. i am merely retracting ALL previous support of him, his wife and his organization..  ..

wado equa
tachia




Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: bls926 on December 16, 2008, 01:43:48 pm
Just so we are all aware Ben Carnes is the current spokesperson for Leonard Peltier,for the same reason I am aware of the Brother Dave Hill,both decent,focused and great Bros I sure as hell would want at my back if i needed help.

Zoi, do you know either of these men?
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: zoi lightfoot on December 17, 2008, 02:02:52 pm
Firstly Dave Hill is known to every single long hauler out there envolved with Leonard Peltiers case,he's been actively envolved for decades,secondly yeah I have and do maintain direct contact with Ben Carnes.For the same reason.Is that what you wanted to hear direclty from me?Still doesn't change the fact I'd want them watching my back if i needed help,or the fact Ben is a colleague in the world of LPDOC.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: bls926 on December 18, 2008, 05:29:02 am
Firstly Dave Hill is known to every single long hauler out there envolved with Leonard Peltiers case,he's been actively envolved for decades,secondly yeah I have and do maintain direct contact with Ben Carnes.For the same reason.Is that what you wanted to hear direclty from me?Still doesn't change the fact I'd want them watching my back if i needed help,or the fact Ben is a colleague in the world of LPDOC.
In other words, you "know of" David Hill and you're on the mailing list for LPDOC and receive the newsletters from Ben Carnes. You don't know either David or Ben. Zoi, you really shouldn't drop names like that, especially the names of people you don't even know.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: zoi lightfoot on December 19, 2008, 12:55:58 pm
Thats one hell of a presumption on your part
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: bls926 on December 19, 2008, 01:19:28 pm
Thats one hell of a presumption on your part

Not a presumption at all. I do know both Ben and David.

Like I said before, you really shouldn't name-drop, especially the names of people you don't know. Someone might call you on it.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: zoi lightfoot on December 19, 2008, 01:48:20 pm
Exactly! You got nothing more worthwhile to be doing?
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on December 20, 2008, 05:25:27 am
merely wondering ..

what are your definitions of "know" as used in reference to a person (ie: name dropping) .. ..directed to zoi yet indirectly to bls as well, cause you set me to wondering bls..  .. .. ??
do you .. ..
"know" these people on the  internet?
"know" them from things you have read?
"know" them from publicity about them?
"know" them cause you saw them at some event, and perhaps even spoke to them for a second or two?
"know" them because a friend of a friends, cousins uncle, knew em a long time ago?
etc .. .. i am sure you get the point ..

my opinion .. bottom line .. unless you "know" someone well enough to have spent several days in their home, and had them in your home, not just once but on many occasions .. unless you are on a first name basis, not only with them, but with the members of their family, their S.O.'s. hell even their animals .. lol .. in other words, unless THEY know YOU as well as you claim to know them you do NOT know them .. and dsl is correct in that it is nothing more than "look at me" name dropping to say that you "know" them .. ..

one of the people mentioned would not much like that he is being talked about ..
the other is very likely basking in the warm glow of the attention ..

IF you know these two people, you will know which sentence to ascribe to which person ..

ah well .. ..

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: bls926 on December 20, 2008, 07:13:05 am
one of the people mentioned would not much like that he is being talked about ..
the other is very likely basking in the warm glow of the attention ..

IF you know these two people, you will know which sentence to ascribe to which person ..

Tachia, I don't know either man that well; have never been to their home or had a cup of coffee with them. Was simply trying to make a point of how well Zoi Lightfoot knew them, if at all; since both David and Ben have stated that they don't know her.

Your last comment, the one I quoted . . . Yes, I do know "which sentence to ascribe to which person".
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: glendadeer on January 01, 2009, 08:36:33 pm
I thought this was a dead thread....but then you have to consider the ones who like to stir the the coals and get the fire started again...especially when they say they don't want to argue publically...

I do know both Ben Carnes (and family) and David Hill...Both have been in my home to share a cup of coffee...I have a lot respect for both of them and all they have done and do for the LP DOC and their stand they take in support of our Indian people, in general.  Both have dedicated their life to fighting for the cause...They didn't just wake the past year and decide they wanna make a name for themselves...

It's a damn shame that there always has to be some that feel the need to make a name for themselves on the coat tails of others...Always feeling the need to "do it a little better"...and want to make sure they are given credit for something that could not have been done with out ALL the people...Yes, publically they act all humble but it is not genuine...Never once have I heard either of these men try and take credit for anything they have spearheaded...they credit THE PEOPLE!

When you do something to help someone or for the cause...great! Sit back and be humbled by it...The Creator knows what's in your heart...and it means NOTHING if you have to go around and brag about it....because it's not sincere or genuine...In order to be blessed, one must be the blessing...

This is a new year..."give it up"...dayum...quit trying to beat a dead horse... quit fanning the flames...your just making yourselves look stupid....

Okay, I have had my say...and your right, I am nobody...and I do not claim to be anyone special...I am happy being me.. :)

I have been away from a lot of things because of things going on with my health but yet, I still get talked about..but I just make like a duck in the rain...I just let it slide off my back..and consider the source..:)

I wish all of you good health, love and happiness for this is a new year..2009! yeah, even you haters...:)
We all have a special purpose on this earth...and I'm sure it's not wasting precious time bad mouthing each other....Me, I will just ignore you...
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on January 01, 2009, 09:40:09 pm
one of the people mentioned would not much like that he is being talked about ..
the other is very likely basking in the warm glow of the attention ..

IF you know these two people, you will know which sentence to ascribe to which person ..

Tachia, I don't know either man that well; have never been to their home or had a cup of coffee with them. Was simply trying to make a point of how well Zoi Lightfoot knew them, if at all; since both David and Ben have stated that they don't know her.

Your last comment, the one I quoted . . . Yes, I do know "which sentence to ascribe to which person".

bls .. thought you would know which was which .. *s* .. .. .. you made a good point about people, zoi in this instance, merely dropping names for their own ignorant reasons .. makes one wonder just who the hell this zoi is and what their agenda is as well .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on January 01, 2009, 09:46:03 pm
glenda ..
heya

"sistah" .. ..

yeah well all of us thought this was a dead thread .. ah well .. .. you would do well to note which people brought this thread back into the limelight .. .. it was just fine being "dead" as far as all others were concerned .. .. until it got brought back up, then i felt a responsibility to state my "two cents" .. ..

hope your doing some better .. health problems suck! .. ..

wishing you all the best for the new year
tachia
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Walks on February 15, 2009, 04:22:03 am
I need to take this opportunity to retract my earlier endorsement of the Carnes.

edoted as dealt with personal issues not relevent to forum.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 15, 2009, 06:01:31 pm
I need to take this opportunity to retract my earlier endorsement of the Carnes.

It has been my personal experiance that Ben considers you a brother as long as you are handing out hundred dollar bills to him but when the agreed upon time comes for repayment he no longer knows you and refuses to return messages, phone calls or any other correspondence.

I gladly loaned the Carnes in excess of 1700 dollars to keep their power on and save their land from foreclosure.
Ben gave his word and a date for repayment bu when the time came he renigged.

After much prodding by me I did recieve one check for 800 dollars but Ben refused to pay the rest.

I have personnaly spoken with another person who had a similar experiance with The Carnes.

It is my intent to hopefully save someone else the financial hardship of any monetary dealings with Ben or Cat Carnes.

 Personally, if I was somebody and you retracted your support of me, I would take it as a blessing.

  Honestly somebody should start a research thread about you and detail how many times you have threatened people with violence and stalking on the internet.

 You know I know from experience about all that, I mean seriously how many times have you threatened me with violence or bragged about the fact you were stalking me?

  I know recently you took a dislike to a man and did a number on him, and bragged to him how you knew every residence he had ever lived at. Funny thing is when you did this, you were not even sure if he was a bad man or not; didn't even know if what he was doing was something people on this board would dislike since you hadn't even done any real research on him yet. You told him "you were going to go check with some elders" now didn't you? So ya stalked the man just like you do everyone else, and im surprised you didn't threaten him with violence too.

  Why don't you tell all these good people how you are like 46, and just found out you MIGHT have some cherokee in you a few years ago. Yet despite that fact, you threatened a 19 or 20 year old real Indian man and his girlfriend with violence, and told them " I will come to your house and show you what a real Indian is."  So tell me how did you suppose you were going to do this when you just found out you might be Indian a few years ago?

 Lot of nerve you have telling anyone who has been Indian their whole life anything like that ennit?

 Yea, I know what you are going to say; we both know I aint no angel myself, but we both know I don't claim to be. I am a little too outspoken at times, know for my fights/debates, and some of my foul language. Course in my case I am man enough to admit it, and not behave like you do and try and go around trying to behave like i'm some activist who does not wrong. Can't say the same about you huh?

 At least in my case I have owned up to the wrongs I have committed and apologized to a lot of people who I fought, and did so without placing the blame on either side. We were both wrong and we admitted it, and those sins by both sides have been atoned.

 In my opinion you are a very dangerous man, who will not just stalk people that the good people on here would see as exploiters and such, but a man who will threaten with violence, and stalk people for calling you on your bullshit.

 I could bring dozens of people here who have been threatened with violence by you, and many more that have seen it.

 Do you realize that all those threats and such are felonies on the federal level? Do you not know we did turn you into the FBI for doing that? Lucky for you, we dint push the issue when you finally backed off.

  Why don't you tell all these good people what a womanizer you are as well. We both know just how well I know about that don't we ;)

 I heard that you took a dislike to Ben cause his loved one was not Indian. Funny thing is you don't have the slightest proof you are, and you are pretty much just learning things if you truly are. You are the pot calling the kettle black in such a major way if that is true of you. At best you are a podia who is way way less then 1/4, so imagine how preposterous it is for you to think the way you are.

  That's all I got to say on this. I encourage to go ahead and fire back on me if that is your desire, because you know I will return fire, and this will get very nasty quick.

 When I get threats of violence and hatred from people like you, that is when I know i'm doing my job, and doing it very very well :)
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 15, 2009, 06:26:39 pm
Okay, both have made a point.  But it looks like it's on a personal level.  So let's not go any further with it.  If you wish to attack each other, use another forum.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Vuyeed on February 15, 2009, 09:20:45 pm
hello Walks...this is Eric from Myspace. I will co-sign what Rattle said in regard to the threats made by you towards myself and others on that forum. Why should anyone take your word for anything when that seems to be your MO when you get called for BS? I have talked with Cat on several occassions and she seems like a nice lady. Friend requested both her and Ben and they both have a lot of good things to say in regards to Native issues and Leonard Peltier. I won't claim to be uber-knowledgable on a lot of things but the threats made towards myself, Rattle and a few others I am quite knowledgable of...More than likely you are going after the Carnes' because you feel you aren't getting your way on another issue...that too is your MO. When you help someone out you don't use it to blackmail them into doing what you want...which given what I have seen that is what you are doing here.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 15, 2009, 09:29:39 pm
Like I said take it elsewhere. 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 15, 2009, 09:36:35 pm
I don't know anything about this situation, but it seems Danielle also had some complaints about Walks that sounded similar . See reply #2 and reply #4 , reply #5 and #6 in the thread below

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1641.0

In reply 7 Educatedindian says

Quote
The moderators have all looked over the evidence sent by both Danielle and Walks. It's pretty obvious the two of them have long feuded with each other, sometimes making some pretty vicious insults.

I guess my point is with so many allegations and counter allegations I'm not sure any of this has anything to do with Ben Carnes.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on February 15, 2009, 09:49:03 pm
Like I said take it elsewhere. 

Nice post Federica, thank you.  None of these other "personal conflicts" have any place in this thread.  Lets stick to the topic. The topic is ben carnes and eagle mountain spiritual council. 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 15, 2009, 09:53:44 pm
Except for the fact that he (Ben)  borrowed money and didn't repay.  But that is a personal issue, not for here.  The rest apprears to be between other people and Walk. Definately personal. Not for here.  
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on February 15, 2009, 10:16:44 pm
Except for the fact that he (Ben)  borrowed money and didn't repay.  But that is a personal issue, not for here.  The rest apprears to be between other people and Walk. Definately personal. Not for here.  

Federica ..
true .. if these people want to discuss these other personal issues they should take them somewhere else!
the original questions about ben carnes still stand without answers.
the topic IS "Ben carnes and eagle mountain spiritual council"
stay on topic and take the other crap elsewhere
ben himself has said in here, that he would welcome any and all scrutiny of himself and his organization.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 15, 2009, 10:26:24 pm
Except for the fact that he (Ben)  borrowed money and didn't repay.  But that is a personal issue, not for here.  The rest apprears to be between other people and Walk. Definately personal. Not for here.  

Federica ..
true .. if these people want to discuss these other personal issues they should take them somewhere else!
the original questions about ben carnes still stand without answers.
the topic IS "Ben carnes and eagle mountain spiritual council"
stay on topic and take the other crap elsewhere
ben himself has said in here, that he would welcome any and all scrutiny of himself and his organization.


 
 Funny how you try and act as if what we say in defense of Ben is "personal," but what you say is not. I am trying my best to abide by the wishes of Federicka, but it is hard when I see you speaking from the side of your mouth.

 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 15, 2009, 10:30:06 pm
I don't know anything about this situation, but it seems Danielle also had some complaints about Walks that sounded similar . See reply #2 and reply #4 , reply #5 and #6 in the thread below

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1641.0

In reply 7 Educatedindian says

Quote
The moderators have all looked over the evidence sent by both Danielle and Walks. It's pretty obvious the two of them have long feuded with each other, sometimes making some pretty vicious insults.

I guess my point is with so many allegations and counter allegations I'm not sure any of this has anything to do with Ben Carnes.

 Back in those days I decided to stay out of the whole topic of Walks making threats to people, and stuck to the topic at hand since this was a different forum. Plus back in those days Walks was a friend of Ben, and so that futhered my resolve to keep the differences he and I had out of this forum.

Since then the man has threatened me on several occasions, one time in particular he told me that "he knew where I worked." I do have a copy of that, and it was turned over to myspace and they deleted that particular account he made that threat from.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 15, 2009, 10:43:41 pm
Sorry Rattle, I have no knowledge of Ben one way or the other.  All I see is what the three of you present.  And they look like personal issues to me.  And yours and the late poster seem to be with Walk.  This forum is not the place for that.  If you have issues with the Ben Carnes and the Eagle Mountain Spirtual Council doing something inappropiate, illegal or corrupt, bring it.  But borrowing money is an individual personal issue. And it doesn't belong here either.  All three of the posts are inappropiate and do not belong here.    
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 15, 2009, 10:49:35 pm
Sorry Rattle, I have no knowledge of Ben one way or the other.  All I see is what the three of you present.  And they look like personal issues to me.  And yours and the late poster seem to be with Walk.  This forum is not the place for that.  If you have issues with the Ben Carnes and the Eagle Mountain Spirtual Council doing something inappropiate, illegal or corrupt, bring it.  But borrowing money is an individual personal issue. And it doesn't belong here either.  All three of the posts are inappropiate and do not belong here.    

I understand that, and I do appologize for my part of bringing that here.

I do consider Carnes family to be friends, so I am not the one who is saying anything in regards to the money.

I do feel the money issue being brought here is a personal one like you said, and is something being used to cover up the personal issues that both Walks and Tachia have with Ben.

I will do as you wish and not continue with this any longer. I will say though that if you knew more yourself on this issue, and were able to dig into it; you would see just how much of a personal issue it is with Tachia and Walks even though they try and pretend it is not.

Anyways that is all I have to say.

Once again I do apologize for my part in bringing this here.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 15, 2009, 10:52:25 pm
No problem, and no disrespect meant.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Vuyeed on February 15, 2009, 11:43:05 pm
 Ben and Cat are being bullied into doing what Walks wants and because they aren't Walks is bring HIS personal issues into this thread. Why can one group slander Ben and Cat and others who defend them be said to be bringing "personal issues" in here? All I am saying is take what he and his friends say about Ben and Cat Carnes with a grain of salt, because there is more to it than what you are being fed here. Tachia is a good friend of Walks as well so letting her be the voice of authority on this should be moot as well.

[Al's note: Everything not relevant to the issue of Carnes was removed, as was a subsequent irrelevant rant. Your choice is simple. Stay on topic, leave, or get kicked out for repeated spam.

It also would be of great help if you actually provide proof of your claims, or at least not contradict yourself by claiming A) Carnes is being bullied B) OK, he's being bullied but it isn't working.

A last point, there is no uneven treatment. You are simply slower to listen than the others.]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 16, 2009, 02:27:48 am
This was a clean thread on Ben Carnes.  Now if they have issues with Ben that are not personal, they are welcome to put these up as long as they can validate them.  And I am not talking about just borrowing money.  If you have good things to say about Ben Carnes, that is all good also.  But it is not a forum to just come in and attack the attacker.  If people can stick to the subject of the thread fine, if all it amounts to is challenges and threats and personal matters, it won't work.  People will have to deal with Walk and his threats on their own as it happens.  If he came in here and did the same, we would have to deal with the problem.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 17, 2009, 02:02:09 am
I have proof that Walks is not being completely honest about the money issue and that he is telling a very one sided story.  I know this because I was involved with him at the time.  That is a personal issue between him and the Carnes that they should work out privately and not on this very public board.  I am also irritated to see Tachia trying to pull the drama back up.  You don't like the Carnes...fine.  Then don't like them.  But what evidence do you have that is not personal that is proof of him being a fraud?  None, that we have seen so far.  Swallow your pride and keep your drama and personal issues to yourself please.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Eagle Feather on February 17, 2009, 04:33:33 am
mama duck, it would do you well to go back and read this thread thoroughly.........zoi lightfoot is the one that brot this thred back from the ded.   As far as the money issue goes, IMHO it goes toward honesty, integrity, bein trust worthy, etc for someon claiming to be a spritul leader all of those wuld be importnt.  taking money and exploitrs go hand and hand yanno.  it appears that you mamduck are here for the sole puppose of discrediting walks, as ahs been said "please stay on topic".  now do you have anything to say about Ben carnes and ealge mtn?? 

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 17, 2009, 04:38:24 am
  That is a personal issue between him and the Carnes that they should work out privately and not on this very public board.
    This subject died yesterday, let it lie.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 17, 2009, 11:45:30 am
mama duck, it would do you well to go back and read this thread thoroughly.........zoi lightfoot is the one that brot this thred back from the ded.   As far as the money issue goes, IMHO it goes toward honesty, integrity, bein trust worthy, etc for someon claiming to be a spritul leader all of those wuld be importnt.  taking money and exploitrs go hand and hand yanno.  it appears that you mamduck are here for the sole puppose of discrediting walks, as ahs been said "please stay on topic".  now do you have anything to say about Ben carnes and ealge mtn?? 



I don't know you but I do know Walks In the real, and well. Wouldn't doubt that you are him.  No one took money from walks.  You have no idea idea what the situation was.  It had nothing to do with exploiting anyone.  I do discredit walks when he is not being completely honest.  Tachia in fact did start this thread back up when she came back to retract her original support for her personal reasons.  If Ben is an exploiter...than post it up.  Lets see it.  I wan't to see proof..not bs over personal issues and whether someone paid a debt back to a friend on time and all at once.  That is a personal issue and not one that should be discussed on a public board.   I am very much on topic with this and waiting patiently for someone to show some actual evidence of Ben exploiting our culture.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Eagle Feather on February 17, 2009, 01:14:29 pm
for petes sake - this thred was ded from arpil to november, tachia was NOT the one that revived it = otheres did mama.  you need to take your drama somewhere else.   exploitin your culture??  excuse me, are you lakota??  seems to me a choctaw "chief" running a lakota cermony called a "sundance" and askin for donations to support it in ute country is questionble.  chiefytiger stated kenny frost (a well knwn ute leadr) was slamming ben carnes about it when he (chiefytiger) brought this thread bavck up innovembr 2008.  members of myspace saw that go down as well as cat carnes agree on a forum of myspace that ben did not pay walks backmoney owed. so it isn't relly a lie when cat herslf has stated in public forums morethan once, they didn't pay (over 1500) the money back to wwalks.   again a person claimin to be a spirtul leader shuld be acting in a manner above that - taking moneythen not returning calls or repeated e-mails and messges from the prson that loned it is not cool.  period.   
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 17, 2009, 05:34:00 pm
Quote
his thred was ded from arpil to november, tachia was NOT the one that revived it =
 

 Actually you are twisting things here to suite whatever your agenda is for posting this.  Though ChiefyTiger did post in this thread in November 2008 as you have stated, what brought this thread alive in more recent times is Tachia Hawk retracting what she had said last year in this thread.

 If you will also notice in that posting, Tachia did mention something to the effect that she was also speaking on behalf of another individual. That is actually one of the main reasons both her and walks are here in this thread, and that is to support that other person in what is actually a personal feud for personal reasons.

I myself have abided by the wishes of Educated Indian and Federicka and have left my personal issues out of this thread. However I do feel that you are secretly here on behalf of Tachia, Walks, and that person I won't name.

 So what I feel you are doing when you tell Mama duck to leave her drama out of this thread, is actually doing the exact same thing. Your very mention of what was MY Thread over on myspace tells me this.

 So I will agree with the moderators of this site and say that personal drama should be left off of this site. With that in mind I do believe you should do the same, and I know that you are not and are actually trying to pretend you are.

Who are you anyways??? What name do you go by on myspace...why don't you tell us all so it can be known just where exactly you are coming from on this issue?
 
 
Quote
exploitin your culture??  excuse me, are you lakota??
   

 Excuse me, are you Lakota? Why don't you tell us what people you are from. If a Choctaw person is not supposed to be speaking on this matter, then no other people other then Lakota and Ute should be then, correct?

 Furthermore it is my understanding that Ben was given permission to do what he does by Lakota elders. So do you or anyone else some how have more right to say something in regards to this then a Lakota elder?

Quote
chiefytiger stated kenny frost (a well knwn ute leadr) was slamming ben carnes about it when he (chiefytiger) brought this thread bavck up innovembr 2008. 


 He and a few other people were also stating how Kenny Frost was a womanizer and things of that nature. So if somebody says it going by your logic, since you are supporting every bad statement made here about Ben Carnes; then is surely must be true right?

 So why would you overlook this flaw in Kenny Frost as a leader and spiritual leader, and yet not overlook that fact that Ben supposedly has not paid back money he borrowed from somebody?

 The simple fact is that Ben like Kenny Frost as some have said of Kenny Frost is a human and nothing more, regardless of what kind of leader he is or is not. Bottom line is that all humans no matter how good or bad they are, or what they do in their lives for themselves or others will make mistakes.

 So it seems to me, that you are looking at things from a romanticized viewpoint of leaders/spiritual leaders, and thinking that they would never make mistakes.



Quote
members of myspace saw that go down as well as cat carnes agree on a forum of myspace that ben did not pay walks backmoney owed.



 To repeat what I have said before, you are twisting words here into half truths and falsehoods. You are speaking of a thread I actually started, and I do believe you know that don't you.

 So once again provide proof of what you are saying, or admit you are taking things out of context and then drop this personal issue you have.

 Once again you are twisting things said into falsehoods to fit your agenda. If I remember correctly it was said they intended to pay or something of that nature. Just because Walks is claiming he tried calling them etc, that does not make things true. I mean if worst comes to worst the man does know where they live....he has stayed at their home before.

If I am wrong on this then bring back something in which would prove otherwise. If not then you are just bringing in a personal issue that the rest of us are agreeing to drop, or that you are telling mama duck to drop.




Quote
so it isn't relly a lie when cat herslf has stated in public forums morethan once, they didn't pay (over 1500) the money back to wwalks.
   

 Once again you are putting things out of context. Go read those statements there again.


Quote
again a person claimin to be a spirtul leader shuld be acting in a manner above that - taking moneythen not returning calls or repeated e-mails and messges from the prson that loned it is not cool.  period.   

 To once again repeat myself. Look at my earlier above when I pointed out some of said Kenny was a womanizer. Now I am not saying that I believe it or not, because I simply do not know the man or anything about him. However since others have said it, and im sure you have read it; you are guilty of using double standards here, and that is why I think you are just as guilty as bringing a personal issue here as you claim mama duck is.

Just in your case I think that you are trying to hide it.



 EducatedIndian and Federicka have asked that all of us here leave personal grudges out of this thread and their site. I have even been told this in private by one of them.

So I think everyone should abide by that and leave all of that out of this thread.

 The money issue was a personal thing, and should not be brought to this site.

If people can not bring proof that Ben is an exploiter, which is the purpose of this site; then they should say nothing at all until they can provide proof.

Once again I do apologize for my part in bringing things here that should not have been. I just want the truth to be told about everyone and the situation at hand if they are going to speak on things and about things like they have.

When somebody points a figure they should always remember they have three pointing back at them, especially when they bring out personal information that has nothing to do with the issue at hand and try to look like angels when they do the finger pointing.

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 17, 2009, 06:56:49 pm
Ok , I am going to wade in here and make a few observations, based on nothing more than what I am reading here....

1. Ben Carnes is interested in starting a Spiritual community.

2. He has some very active online supporters.

3. Some personal allegations were made against Walks and Ben Carnes was criticized for his choice of friends.

1. Walks was a strong supporter of Ben Carnes and Ben Carnes was a strong supporter of Walks

5.Now Walks is accusing Ben Carnes of not repaying money he borrowed.  I think we all have friends who have done the same thing. Some people are saying this is a personal issue that does not belong in a discussion in NAFPS.

6. People are saying this is more than a personal issue because Ben Carnes is a Spiritual leader and as such he must show better behavior than regular people. 

7. A couple of the people who strongly supported him in April felt they needed to retract their support. No reasons were given. No personal grievances were aired in public.   

8. Some of Ben Carnes supporters are saying that the fact some of Ben's former supporters  have retracted their support is a "personal Issue" and it is being suggested they are somehow wrong for retracting their previous support.

So here is my own observation based just on the facts as i read them here.

It looks like you all are really an unstable bunch.

With so many shifting loyalties and the inability to sort things out before they erupt into an internet flame war, I really have to wonder if any of you are really mature enough to form a stable Spiritual community?   

Secondly, if people who formally supported Ben want to retract that support for whatever reason, personal - or to do with bigger issues, that is entirely their right. They don't have to give any reasons as long as what they DO say is true, and verifiable. When you all begin trying to discredit someone or make them guilty of some kind of personal vendetta, just because they retracted former support, you all begin sounding more like a cult than a community based on traditional values.

I'm not sure why this thread got moved back into research needed, but at this point, the only thing that has made me skeptical of Ben Carnes is the behavior of his followers.

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

When you have a myspace page which is supposed to be connected to some sort of Spiritual Council - as he has - I can see it could be hard to know who was connecting to you, or what they might do with what was shared.

Enough said . I really have next to no clue what I am talking about here. But what I am saying seems pretty obvious ...
   
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 17, 2009, 07:10:53 pm

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

[/quote]


 No it is not fair because there are things we are being told not to speak about here, so the full story has not come out.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Vuyeed on February 18, 2009, 03:54:53 pm
I am a follower of no one...I see an injustice being done so I speak up. If someone was doing it to anyone else I would do the same. I don't care who they are or what the believe in.

Maybe it is my over developed sense of fair play, but holy crap people (mods) sure want to stick up for Walks the first time someone bags on him...wish Ben got the same treatment, eh?

I apologize to the mods if they feel we invaded this board to cause trouble...my beef has to with someone being smeared without just cause.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Cetan on February 18, 2009, 05:30:28 pm
I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on February 18, 2009, 07:15:13 pm
I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.


i am dealing with the passing of a brother so i am not going to get into this ..
but cetan,  it might be worthwhile to ask some questions as to WHO is the "author" of what you just quoted .. jacketing is serious, not a game as some seem to believe .. .. when has LP "EVER" jacketed anyone????? ... .. there are a great number of people who do know the answer on WHO was the author .. all i will say is that is was NOT written by LP .. .. now let the attacks on me begin and the cards fall where they may .. i am grieving and tired of keeping silent and i cannot honour this brother by remaining silent on the many things he was going to speak out about .. .. if we do not speak up about corruption then we are worthless .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Cetan on February 18, 2009, 08:15:02 pm
this was part of a statement made by Leonard Peltier on 1/31/09 when he was transferred back to Lewisburg; I received multiple copies both from LP Defense Committee and a AIM list. Here is the statement in it's entirety



I want to thank each and everyone of you for your efforts in my urgent time of need, you cannot imagine how much my spirit has been lifted from the cards and letters, the phone calls and how everyone kept up the pressure. My gratitude is really more than I can express.
My return to Lewisburg was met like a hero’s welcome, and many people came to assure me of my safety there. It is so ironic that the prisoners in a federal maximum-security prison can guarantee my safety, but the Bureau of Prisons will not. I did not say, “cannot”, but “will not” do so. You have to remember the BOP is a little brother to the FBI and they came from an illegitimate mother called the JUST-US (Justice) Department.

Do I sound a little angry? Well, I am angry that many of my friends have died in assuring my survival while I’ve been in prison. All the men who were involved in my escape at Lompoc, all died mysteriously soon after: Dallas Thundershield at Lompoc, Bobby Garcia at Terre Haute, and Rocky Duenas, whose body was never recovered. And Standing Deer, he gave away his life when he revealed the assassination plot against me. He lived under the shadow of death for years, waiting to be killed for defying the government, until he was eventually paroled to Texas. He was murdered soon after the same person who contracted him to have me assassinated warned him about his involvement with my campaign. Surviving this attack brought back memories of those losses, and it is with tears of more gratitude in my eyes and in my heart that no one died this time. I don’t ever want to lose another brother in
protecting me; a human life is precious and important.

I know in other countries, prisoners who have been held by their government have been placed in house arrest after they have attained international support as I have. If the BOP cannot guarantee my safety to the extent the prisoners here can, then I demand to be returned to my nation, Turtle Mountain, where I can be assured of my safety!
Turtle Mountain has issued a resolution to transfer me into their custody, and they have asked to meet with Obama on a nation-to-nation basis. This has to happen and it will when a lot of energy is placed behind it. In the past 18 days your efforts brought me out of the hole and to where there is a measure of safety.

The FBI has said that I will never leave prison alive, and we should not accept that as an idle threat. There have been a few times that my life was targeted by the FBI in the 33 years since my capture, and each of those who have helped me to survive are now dead. The transfer and attack at Canaan is just a warning to me of what is to come. The warden’s know of the psychological make-up of their inmate population in their prison, and they clearly knew that placing someone who is well known, as I am, with connections to many famous people and at my age, I would be subject to predatory attacks. This was deliberate by the BOP, and as far as the motivation for the attack, it could have been ordered by any prison official at the request of the FBI, or someone trying to curry favor from the feds. It could have also been a tactic to beat me into submission for purposes of extortion or
something as stupid as trying to make a reputation.

We know they are afraid and Trimbach’s smear letter support that. They see pressure, in the form of your letters and calls, growing and they know that my committee has been tirelessly developing plans to set up a wave of activity. The FBI is now afraid that they will fail to keep me falsely imprisoned. We are becoming stronger and we must keep building our network to succeed.

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.

I am also asking all of my supporters and allies to follow the directions of the committee when the plans and strategies are presented at the Feb. 6th event in Boulder, CO. It had begun as an educational event and now it will be a very important event because of everything that has happened recently. We had wanted to release it when Obama was sworn in, but my transfer placed it on hold. I am a believer that nothing happens by accident or coincidence. It all happens for a reason, and it feels as if things are coming together the way they should. It is significant that an intense campaign will be begin after 33 years in captivity and with a newly elected President who could be receptive to my clemency appeal in office.
We will be making our message stronger in what we do and in how we will do it. I cannot stress how important it will be to increase our numbers after this event because the committee members, spokespersons, and their families will be making more personal sacrifices to help increase awareness. They’ll need your support in organizing other events and networking in your area.

Again, I want to thank everyone who wrote, called and emailed. My hand in appreciation is extended to those who have held rallies and protests on my behalf to call attention to the attack on me. I also extend my gratitude to Cynthia McKinney, former congresswoman for her recent letter to President Obama urging him to free other political prisoners and myself.
In all these years, there have been so many people who have prayed for my safety and freedom from all faiths. There is power in those prayers and that is what I know will bring about my freedom. I can feel something different this time, and many others have expressed the same thought to me. So when you pray, don’t pray only for me, but the warriors of AIM who have died for our people, the victims of the “Reign of Terror” on Pine Ridge, and other victims who has suffered as we have. Pray for their families as well. They must not be forgotten and they must have justice!

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse, Dallas Thundershield, Bobby Garcia, Rocky Duenas, Standing Deer, and in The Spirit of Total Resistance,

Leonard Peltier

Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 18, 2009, 08:47:15 pm
 Cetan she and her friends have a personal grudge against Ben and his wife, and it has nothing to do with him being any kind of exploiter because he is not.

 It is about their personal issues with him, and the over inflated ego of one of their friends they are secretly on here supporting.

 No amount of proof of evidence of the proof will be listened to by either of them, and nor will they care if you show it to them.

 I have dealt with them for years now, and can tell you I know how they operate.

 What disturbs me about them is that the rest of us have agreed to keep personal issues of this board, but both of them refuse.

 They continue to come to this board and make statements about things and try and make what they say seem as "evidence," and yet when you ask them for it, you will never get it from them.

 Until they can provide some sort of hard proof of what they say, they are doing nothing but making false accusations about things that are not true, and trying to make them seem as if they are not the personal grudges that they really are.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Eagle Feather on February 18, 2009, 08:53:23 pm
cetan, don't believe everything you read jest becauze it came fom some sources you trust.  Leonard Peltier DID NOT write that sttement.   Any of you that are educators can look back at Leonard's statmetns and see that for yurself.  that stmet was written by some ego big head with a self servin misson.  guess who.    ;)

and as to the personal "grudge" and personal issue stuff that keeps gettin putout her by rattlebun and tothers, THEy are the ones makin it prsonsl.  ** mods will you pleze stop these fools from keepin this stupidy alive...ban them from continuing to post on this thred with scuh crud.  becuse no matter how many times you have asked them to say on topic - they refuse!    thank you verry much
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Eagle Feather on February 18, 2009, 08:56:44 pm
Ok , I am going to wade in here and make a few observations, based on nothing more than what I am reading here....

1. Ben Carnes is interested in starting a Spiritual community.

2. He has some very active online supporters.

3. Some personal allegations were made against Walks and Ben Carnes was criticized for his choice of friends.

1. Walks was a strong supporter of Ben Carnes and Ben Carnes was a strong supporter of Walks

5.Now Walks is accusing Ben Carnes of not repaying money he borrowed.  I think we all have friends who have done the same thing. Some people are saying this is a personal issue that does not belong in a discussion in NAFPS.

6. People are saying this is more than a personal issue because Ben Carnes is a Spiritual leader and as such he must show better behavior than regular people. 

7. A couple of the people who strongly supported him in April felt they needed to retract their support. No reasons were given. No personal grievances were aired in public.   

8. Some of Ben Carnes supporters are saying that the fact some of Ben's former supporters  have retracted their support is a "personal Issue" and it is being suggested they are somehow wrong for retracting their previous support.

So here is my own observation based just on the facts as i read them here.

It looks like you all are really an unstable bunch.

With so many shifting loyalties and the inability to sort things out before they erupt into an internet flame war, I really have to wonder if any of you are really mature enough to form a stable Spiritual community?   

Secondly, if people who formally supported Ben want to retract that support for whatever reason, personal - or to do with bigger issues, that is entirely their right. They don't have to give any reasons as long as what they DO say is true, and verifiable. When you all begin trying to discredit someone or make them guilty of some kind of personal vendetta, just because they retracted former support, you all begin sounding more like a cult than a community based on traditional values.

I'm not sure why this thread got moved back into research needed, but at this point, the only thing that has made me skeptical of Ben Carnes is the behavior of his followers.

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

When you have a myspace page which is supposed to be connected to some sort of Spiritual Council - as he has - I can see it could be hard to know who was connecting to you, or what they might do with what was shared.

Enough said . I really have next to no clue what I am talking about here. But what I am saying seems pretty obvious ...
   

GREAT POSTE! 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 18, 2009, 09:05:49 pm
 
Quote
Any of you that are educators can look back at Leonard's statmetns and see that for yurself.  that stmet was written by some ego big head with a self servin misson.  guess who.    ;)

Quote
and as to the personal "grudge" and personal issue stuff that keeps gettin putout her by rattlebun and tothers, THEy are the ones makin it prsonsl


 See Federicka these two statements right here prove what I have been saying all along. These individuals are coming in here with a personal grudge against Ben.

 The insult against me above also shows that this person is probably Walks, Tachia, or perhaps a certain woman they are in here backing.

 *B* is that you?  :P
 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 18, 2009, 09:56:01 pm
Well, I have to say it looks like a "sock-puppet",  I don't know why they have to spell like that.  For effect I think.  What tangible proof do you have Eagle that what Cetan received is not from LP, if any??  If you are saying it's forged, that's a pretty serious accusation.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Rattlebone on February 18, 2009, 10:09:54 pm
Well, I have to say it looks like a "sock-puppet",  I don't know why they have to spell like that.  For effect I think.  What tangible proof do you have Eagle that what Cetan received is not from LP, if any??  If you are saying it's forged, that's a pretty serious accusation.

 The reason they are spelling like that is so that they can try and disguise their real witting style and not give themselves away as to who they really are.

I would bet you anything that their IP is coming from Oklahoma, or Colorado. I would be shocked if it were not.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: glendadeer on February 18, 2009, 10:16:25 pm
I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.


i am dealing with the passing of a brother so i am not going to get into this ..
but cetan,  it might be worthwhile to ask some questions as to WHO is the "author" of what you just quoted .. jacketing is serious, not a game as some seem to believe .. .. when has LP "EVER" jacketed anyone????? ... .. there are a great number of people who do know the answer on WHO was the author .. all i will say is that is was NOT written by LP  .. .. now let the attacks on me begin and the cards fall where they may .. i am grieving and tired of keeping silent and i cannot honour this brother by remaining silent on the many things he was going to speak out about .. .. if we do not speak up about corruption then we are worthless .. .. .. .. .. .. ..


First of all it's really frustrating seeing my brother Ben Carnes, his family and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council back on the RESEACH NEEDED forum...being slammed by some kinda eagle feather who is obviously misspelling words to make themself look even stupider than they really are...(one only has to guess who this is) and Tachia...and whoever else...

What makes me angry is the statement made above in red...Who is Tachia Hawk Sandoval? To even be questioning statements that come from the LP DOC? All one has to do is google A HERO'S WELCOME LEONARD PELTIER and you can find this statement that Leonard put out all over the net.

http://freepeltiernow.blogspot.com/2009/02/statement-from-leonard-peltier.html
http://www.iacenter.org/prisoners/peltier/id/
http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11319&news_iv_ctrl=1013
http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2009/01/peltier-attacked-at-canaan-and-returns.html
http://freepress.org/departments/display/20/2009/3358

Okay I'm tired, that's enough...but there are many, many more sites.. to numerous to list...

PEOPLE! Do you honestly believe THESE ORGANIZATIONS would print this statement if it did not come from Leonard Peltier? The Free Press? Brenda Norrell? GET REAL!! If anyone needs looked at it would be the ones slamming Ben...especially Tachia Hawk (?), for making such a statement...Questioning the LP DOC...

By the way, I have forwarded this thread to the LP DOC, Tachia...and your allegations...and who is the "Great Number of people" who feel the same? 3 people are not a "great number of people"....

Ben Carnes is very involved with the LP DOC and was very involved in organizing the event in Boulder,Colorado Feb 7th, 2009.....

CHECK BEN'S LP DOC SUPPORT GROUP PAGE OUT:  www.myspace.com/lpbsgco and check out the pics of the event held  Feb 7th...His pics with David Hill, Leonard CrowDog, and others...

I fully support the LP DOC and what they stand for...and I hate that it is being brought into light in such a way...I am nobody to question what is put out by them...and this is kinda sad..seeing my brother Ben and his integrity questioned in such a manner....

This is typical of "people who stir the ashes"...just because of personal jealousies....who don't have their heads on right...

If Ben owes someone money...it is between them...what was it I read just last week? I am only human...?  As judge judy sez...GET OVER IT!!!

THIS IS LIKE THE OLE WHITEMAN'S WAYS OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER.....Geeze people there are more important things to write about...some real frauds outg there...spend you're time "INVESTIGATING THEM!!!"....

And I would like to know from the moderators....WHY IS THIS BACK ON "RESEARCH NEEDED"?

Thanks for you time in reading this :)

glenda deer
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: tachia on February 18, 2009, 10:22:45 pm
just as a matter of record .. anyone of these “new”people who would actually reads this whole thread .. not just the personal irrelevant rants of "their friends" .. can obviously see that i have not said a single bad word about the cranes, nor have i accused them of anything .. i have not brought up any personal issues, money or otherwise .. i was not the one that brought this thread back up after it had died two or three times .. i spoke only after the thread was brought up by others .. yes, indeed, i did retract my former support of the carnes and their organization, which as has been pointed out IS my right, yet i did so with respect, and did NOT say anything “personal” about them, other than I had considered ben as a friend and brother .. ..
READ the thread and quote the posts where I have made any PERSONAL accusations against either of the carnes .. you cannot because they do not exist .. 

point in fact .. all these new people, mike aka rattle, eric aka vuyeed, yvette aka mamaduck, are from the infamously vulgar myspace "cyber tribe" and they are bringing their petty, childish, vulgar crap here now .. (and I am sure they will do as before in here and drag others of their “myspace friends” into this) .. they switch amongst each other from enemy to friend and back again so much that no one can keep track of which of them hates which at any given time, lol .. all anyone has to do is go to the myspace group AIF (american indian family: http://groups.myspace.com/allmyrelations)
to see the utter lack of integrity and the sickening vulgarity that these people exhibit along with the fact that they all live for drama and flaming .. not only  myspace but many other groups as well ..
 
the topic .. since none of these people know the carnes in person i really doubt that they have much to say one way or another on this subject.. they can only echo what they have been told, not what they have seen and experienced in person .. if they cannot stick to the topic, they need to go back to myspace and leave the good people in here out of their petty games .. i agree with mom porcupine, if people of this ilk are followers/supporters of the carnes, that alone would make anyone skeptical of the carnes claims to be “spiritual leaders” ..

personally i will not rise to their pathetic attempts to bait me, i will not even respond to any of them .. their hearsay, lies and rumors are not worth anyone's time .. there presence in here is typical of their tactics, deflection, derailment, flaming etc .. well known tactics that all of us in nafps are quite familiar with .. so enough of these people! .. .. they need to go back to myspace where that sort of BS is acceptable! .. we tend to hold ourselves to a higher standard in nafps ..

i have not seen in this thread, anyone except danielle, say that the carnes are frauds .. and oddly enough, she is now their good buddy, as is rattle, yvette, eric, etc .. perhaps it would behoove the carnes to come in here themselves rather than send in their "dawgs" in .. ?? ..

this thread is in the category "research needed" NOT "frauds", these people need to get their “knickers out of a twist” and either contribute factually to the thread or keep silent .. .. do i personally believe that some further research is needed on the carnes before declaring them as either legitimate or fraudulent .. yes i do, that is what nafps is for, to find the truth .. whatever that truth may be .. i have no personal grudge etc .. i merely wish for the truth to be found, whatever that truth is! .. there needs to be research and discussion, not rumor, innuendo and personal vendettas brought here to deflect from the subject at hand ..  .. again, just be aware that i will not lower myself to respond to any of the myspace "cyber tribe" no matter what, doing so is exactly what they want and it is a fruitless endeavor! ..

since this thread has been brought back up .. why don't we all take the opportunity to do the necessary research on the subject in order to find the TRUTH!!? ..  ..

i thought that this had need to be addressed .. if i am out of line or off topic i know that Al and the other mods will take me to task for such .. lol


Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 18, 2009, 11:22:15 pm
Let cut the flaming now,  if someone has a substantial subject for research on this thread for this forum bring it.  If not mute yourself.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: educatedindian on February 18, 2009, 11:55:52 pm
The flame posts were deleted. Even many of the ones left up have quite a bit of flaming, spam, attempts to sidetrack the issue, and general childishness. From now on every last word that is not relevant to the issue of Carnes will be deleted.

If you want to insinuate something, don't. Have the courage to say it outright, or you come off as a gossip. If you claim someone is "jealous", provide proof. If you claim that an ID is someone hiding under another name, kindly provide proof by IM to one of the mods as to exactly who. We don't allow sockpuppets.

What Momma P said earlier about this "spiritual community" some of you seem determined to prove true.   
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 19, 2009, 05:02:46 pm
NO Flaming, It will be removed.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 19, 2009, 05:06:28 pm
If you have something to same about Ben, that fine.  The rest goes.  That is not what the thread is about, we are not allowing that.  That's all there is to it....
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 19, 2009, 05:10:35 pm
Arrrggg I don't think I have ever felt so reluctant to open my big and usually only partially informed mouth... but ...in the hopes of finding a respectful way to resolve this i am going to give it a try ... And then make a run for the safety of my little porcupine hole . Yikes !

Putting aside all the personal insults and accusations, which prove nothing except something about the character of the accuser, I have some questions.

As Tachia said, the statement where Lenord Peltier says any disagreements within the LP DOC are nothing but petty jelousy or personal dislikes and that he would then add to this, suggesting anyone suffering from these rather common human problems may well be infiltrators sent by the Feds, seems to be an odd thing for him to say.

If Leonard Peltier wanted to assure people he trusted his commitee and had placed them in the positions they were in , why not just say that?

Assuming Lenord Peltier did make this rather heavy accusation, why did he make it? What evidence was this based on ? Where exactly did this evidence come from ?

The finger pointing with no target except anyone who dares disagree with the current administration of the LP DOC , and no evidence which can be examined , wieghed, verified or refuted is exactly the sort of crazy making divisive tactics which create unresolvable paranoia which ARE used by the Feds to undermine peoples ability to work together. 

As i would imagine Lenord Peltier is well informed of the damage that can be done by making vauge, unsubstantiated and unresolvable allegations of this kind, i have to wonder why he would make them?

If Peltier has been given information which has caused him to suggest some of his supporters who have disagreements with some of his other supporters are infiltrators, and this information is not well fonded in facts that can be verified, I can see why people would wonder if Leonared Peltier really wrote that and if he may have been manipulated.

How exactly is Mr Peltier supposed to have conveyed this? Did he type it himself ? If so, who did he give it to after he typed it, to transcribe it into cyberspace typing ?  Did he dictate it to someone over the phone? If so who and when?

I don't see the harm in trying to make sure no one person or small group of people is ever in a position to possibly bend what Leonard Peltier may want to support , to suit their own agenda.

People are human and non of us are ever completely balanced. Sometime people have an agenda that slips in so slowly they aren't even aware of it. As annoying as disagreement are, those disagreements are exactly what helps keep everybody accountable.   

Is there some neutral people who are well respected who keep in touch with Leonard Peltier and could inform people if there was ever a problem in how he was being represented?
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: frederica on February 19, 2009, 05:34:10 pm
It was inappropiate for him to put this up here, and that is stated in several places.  But he has the right to retract "his support" of Ben Carnes.  The money should have not been brought up as it is a personal issue and not for this forum.  But since you just walked in the door, it was to be given a week, and there is still some time left.  But it is not flaming.  Now if you want to stay fine, if you cannot contain yourself to resist flaming, the door opens both ways.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: niska on February 19, 2009, 05:46:57 pm
It was inappropiate for him to put this up here, and that is stated in several places.  But he has the right to retract "his support" of Ben Carnes.  The money should have not been brought up as it is a personal issue and not for this forum.  But since you just walked in the door, it was to be given a week, and there is still some time left.  But it is not flaming.  Now if you want to stay fine, if you cannot contain yourself to resist flaming, the door opens both ways.

ben is actually a pretty nice guy... maybe people should know I do speak with him&his wife time to time..and yes I know who he is and what he does for our native people as if he did not learn it over night.. but to say this.. I am not new to this .. I know a few in this forum from other groups..if you want to know who I am I am nez'perce/salish .. I actually am not here doing fraud and I am a strong person to alot of native communites here in washington.. but when I see this happen it tells me.. [Long rambing irrelevant personal attacks removed]

 now you can waive me off here or keep me around? you're call... alls I said the truth will hurt it always does...

[Al's note: This is actually the first post where you've said anything relevant. All spam, like the three prior spam posts of yours, will be removed. It doesn't help you or Carnesfor you to be dloing this supposedly to protect him. It makes you both look petty and like you're looking to hide something.]
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Cetan on February 19, 2009, 06:43:35 pm
Arrrggg I don't think I have ever felt so reluctant to open my big and usually only partially informed mouth... but ...in the hopes of finding a respectful way to resolve this i am going to give it a try ... And then make a run for the safety of my little porcupine hole . Yikes !

Putting aside all the personal insults and accusations, which prove nothing except something about the character of the accuser, I have some questions.

As Tachia said, the statement where Lenord Peltier says any disagreements within the LP DOC are nothing but petty jelousy or personal dislikes and that he would then add to this, suggesting anyone suffering from these rather common human problems may well be infiltrators sent by the Feds, seems to be an odd thing for him to say.

If Leonard Peltier wanted to assure people he trusted his commitee and had placed them in the positions they were in , why not just say that?

Assuming Lenord Peltier did make this rather heavy accusation, why did he make it? What evidence was this based on ? Where exactly did this evidence come from ?

The finger pointing with no target except anyone who dares disagree with the current administration of the LP DOC , and no evidence which can be examined , wieghed, verified or refuted is exactly the sort of crazy making divisive tactics which create unresolvable paranoia which ARE used by the Feds to undermine peoples ability to work together. 

As i would imagine Lenord Peltier is well informed of the damage that can be done by making vauge, unsubstantiated and unresolvable allegations of this kind, i have to wonder why he would make them?

If Peltier has been given information which has caused him to suggest some of his supporters who have disagreements with some of his other supporters are infiltrators, and this information is not well fonded in facts that can be verified, I can see why people would wonder if Leonared Peltier really wrote that and if he may have been manipulated.

How exactly is Mr Peltier supposed to have conveyed this? Did he type it himself ? If so, who did he give it to after he typed it, to transcribe it into cyberspace typing ?  Did he dictate it to someone over the phone? If so who and when?

I don't see the harm in trying to make sure no one person or small group of people is ever in a position to possibly bend what Leonard Peltier may want to support , to suit their own agenda.

People are human and non of us are ever completely balanced. Sometime people have an agenda that slips in so slowly they aren't even aware of it. As annoying as disagreement are, those disagreements are exactly what helps keep everybody accountable.   

Is there some neutral people who are well respected who keep in touch with Leonard Peltier and could inform people if there was ever a problem in how he was being represented?


Did you read Glendadeer's post? Glenda is a well known and respected member of the Native community, not someone who remains anonymous. Have you checked out any of the websites, all of which have this statement. And since one of the main people currently on the LP DOC is Leonard's sister I am quite sure there would have been some statement from her if this statement was not true.  There was some controversy over the LP DOC committee a while back, and if I remember correctly some questions over what was actually being done and what the donations were being used for, and new people were asked to run it by Leonard and some of those no longer in charge were complaining.  Why Leonard said what he did, well divide and conquer has always been the method of the European invaders and the govt in trying to destroy any grassroots movement; just look at the FBI's history with AIM.
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: Eagle Feather on February 19, 2009, 07:24:55 pm
Arrrggg I don't think I have ever felt so reluctant to open my big and usually only partially informed mouth... but ...in the hopes of finding a respectful way to resolve this i am going to give it a try ... And then make a run for the safety of my little porcupine hole . Yikes !

Putting aside all the personal insults and accusations, which prove nothing except something about the character of the accuser, I have some questions.

As Tachia said, the statement where Lenord Peltier says any disagreements within the LP DOC are nothing but petty jelousy or personal dislikes and that he would then add to this, suggesting anyone suffering from these rather common human problems may well be infiltrators sent by the Feds, seems to be an odd thing for him to say.

If Leonard Peltier wanted to assure people he trusted his commitee and had placed them in the positions they were in , why not just say that?

Assuming Lenord Peltier did make this rather heavy accusation, why did he make it? What evidence was this based on ? Where exactly did this evidence come from ?

The finger pointing with no target except anyone who dares disagree with the current administration of the LP DOC , and no evidence which can be examined , wieghed, verified or refuted is exactly the sort of crazy making divisive tactics which create unresolvable paranoia which ARE used by the Feds to undermine peoples ability to work together. 

As i would imagine Lenord Peltier is well informed of the damage that can be done by making vauge, unsubstantiated and unresolvable allegations of this kind, i have to wonder why he would make them?

If Peltier has been given information which has caused him to suggest some of his supporters who have disagreements with some of his other supporters are infiltrators, and this information is not well fonded in facts that can be verified, I can see why people would wonder if Leonared Peltier really wrote that and if he may have been manipulated.

How exactly is Mr Peltier supposed to have conveyed this? Did he type it himself ? If so, who did he give it to after he typed it, to transcribe it into cyberspace typing ?  Did he dictate it to someone over the phone? If so who and when?

I don't see the harm in trying to make sure no one person or small group of people is ever in a position to possibly bend what Leonard Peltier may want to support , to suit their own agenda.

People are human and non of us are ever completely balanced. Sometime people have an agenda that slips in so slowly they aren't even aware of it. As annoying as disagreement are, those disagreements are exactly what helps keep everybody accountable.   

Is there some neutral people who are well respected who keep in touch with Leonard Peltier and could inform people if there was ever a problem in how he was being represented?


Did you read Glendadeer's post? Glenda is a well known and respected member of the Native community, not someone who remains anonymous. Have you checked out any of the websites, all of which have this statement. And since one of the main people currently on the LP DOC is Leonard's sister I am quite sure there would have been some statement from her if this statement was not true.  There was some controversy over the LP DOC committee a while back, and if I remember correctly some questions over what was actually being done and what the donations were being used for, and new people were asked to run it by Leonard and some of those no longer in charge were complaining.  Why Leonard said what he did, well divide and conquer has always been the method of the European invaders and the govt in trying to destroy any grassroots movement; just look at the FBI's history with AIM.

that post by Ben Carns' se;lfproclamed "sister" prooved nuthin except that some1 used lpdoc listeserv to send out a messge and the rest of the wrld pickd it up as reel...........but this thred isnt and wasnt about that!!!!

isnt their any1 out there that iz willin to stik to what this forum is setup for in re ben carnes and eaglemntn?? 
Title: Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
Post by: glendadeer on February 19, 2009, 09:02:28 pm
Engle Fedder, yes I am Ben's "Self Proclaimed Sister" and am very proud of that fact. Ben, Cat, and Marley have been in my home numerous times, who better to be a character reference. It is allowed in court, why not here? My integrity is not in question here, my brother, his family and his organization is.

One thing you may not know about me is my honesty. I do not take everyone I meet as a relative. There has to be an air of honesty, respect, sincere humbleness about you.Yes, sometimes I can be fooled, as I like to assume ALL people have these traits. You prove me wrong, and I will just flat ignore your ignorance. I didn't just wake up last year and decide I was going to be Indian, I was born Indian. I do not have to feel the need to tell you who my references are as to who I am, I do not feel the need to name drop. Neither should Ben Carnes. His actions speak loudly, but if you wish you can go Google his name. (haha! I love saying that..go google...lol) I sincerely appreciate the good words of the people on here as to my integrity. I am not a grand stander, I am just like you, a pitiful Indian (if your Indian) trying to make a difference in this world for my children and grandchildren. Just as Ben Carnes has, I should only hope that one day people can google my name and get as many hits
as my bro.

So I say to everyone... Ben Carnes is a rightous man, and many are honored to have him as their "self proclaimed brother".

I was going to post some links on here to prove jealousy, and other ugliness, but I decided not to. I figure my word is good enough.

It was inappropiate for him to put this up here, and that is stated in several places.  But he has the right to retract "his support" of Ben Carnes.  The money should have not been brought up as it is a personal issue and not for this forum.  But since you just walked in the door, it was to be given a week, and there is still some time left.  But it is not flaming.  Now if you want to stay fine, if you cannot contain yourself to resist flaming, the door opens both ways.

Thank you Frederica for this statement. So, now where are we on this topic? With this out of the way, exactly what is in question regarding my bro, his family and his organization..?

Much Respect
glenda deer

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 21, 2009, 02:58:55 am
There are serious questions about Carnes and his group, and no amount of spamming, personal attacks on their critics, or other attempts to distract or change the subject will stop the questions from being asked. That includes Niska's threatening to hold her breath til she turns blue if we don't give in. She'll be banned at the next spam post, and won't be missed. In fact we can actually discuss instead of having to deal with childishness for a change.

These questions have been raised before, most notably by Kenny Frost. Carnes also has been criticized by Bernard Red Cherries and others.

These questions come down to:
1. Carnes runs what he calls a Sundance on Ute sacred land. He does this without the backing and with the actual opposition of Ute elders.
2. Carnes is Choctaw but runs an imitation of a Lakota ceremony. He also has appointed himself a "chief".
3. The Sundance has many non-Natives, including white Nuagers who occasionally promote Nuage ideas or leaders.
4. Carnes is accused of selling this ceremony and/or soliciting donations inappropriately.

There are also some other troubling things, which I'll go into in the next post. But here's Frost's statement. Carnes response is there too, along with comments on both posts.

The comments on that post are something else. A lot of smears on Frost for supposedly not signing his post, when the name was xxxed out by someone else. A lot of personal attacks and attempts to sidetrack and ignore the issues. IOW, the same behavior some of Carnes' supporters have done here.

At least IMHO, much of these problems could be avoided if Carnes would speak to Ute leaders, since he is conducting the ceremony on what he admits is likely their land.

----------------------
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=113824469&page=2
Selling Native Spirituality alive,well in Colorado
----------------- Bulletin Message
From: xxxxx
Date: Sep 8, 2008 10:33 PM

The time has come when we must expose those, who sell out Native Religion. We like to think those who run/conduct ceremonies are good people but we always find there are frauds around us. Even in our own people who are Native and there are those who are non-Native as well.

We read many times in the newspaper how many of those "SELF-APPOINTED" spiritual leader have committed fraud and have used people for their own source of income.

We need to wake up and stop these people. A sun dance is held here in Colorado and our Ute people are awaking up and saying enough is enough the time has come to stop people who are not of our people to run/conduct "Sacred Native Ceremonies."
 
We must expose those who are fakes and the time is now!

I'm a Ute Indian and do chase fakes in Colorado and other states. Having the support of Natives in Colorado, western US and Indian Country. I have been to the "Selling of Lakota Spirituality" meeting held at Bear Butte with Arvol Looking Horse, Bernard Cherries and many of the other spiritual leaders of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nokota peoples. Also with the Northern Cheyenne leaders and have the back of many Native tribes in Indian Country. Along with Indian Country Today newspaper and will send information of this travesty of fraud being committee.

The area where Ben Carnes lives is a sacred area for the Ute people just as other areas of all of Colorado is sacred to the Ute people. Having the backing of the Ute elders, we find the outrages conduct of Ben Carnes is shameful, deceitful and a fraud.

As a person who conducts ceremonies here on my Ute reservation you would never see me run/conduct a ceremony on other Indian tribal lands as this isn't RIGHT!!

Ben Carnes states he is Choctaw but living in Colorado. Running a Lakota style sun dance with non-Native taken part in fact, I was contacted by a non-Native who stated they given gifts, monies to Ben Carnes for his services and payment to attend this ceremony.

Our Native ceremonies are not "FOR SALE. Ben Carnes is a hypocrite.
How can a person talk about those who sell ceremonies and Ben is doing the same thing?

He travels north to Yellowstone and received payment for gas, food and lodge from the same white woman who has been selling ceremonies across the US.

I would like to learn these answers to these same questions. I will make a call to the Social Services department of Colorado for find out if this is true. In fact I will also make a call to the State of Colorado of impending fraud perhaps being committed. We must get down to the root of this.

This sun dance has never been approved by the Ute Nation of Colorado and of the Ute Nation of Utah as this are traditional territories of the Ute people.

So please Ben Carnes I would like to know the answers of these questions pose to you. As, being knowledge able of Choctaw people they were not many chiefs but were other types of leaders.

How can you call yourself a Chief? When you never received this from your own people?

The time is now to weed out those who take people for a ride in Colorado as I've been to quiet here in Colorado but been involved in other states exposing frauds and now it is time to work in my own state!

I will pose these questions now?

I find this is a mo of many of those who use people for their own selfish means!!

xxxxx

Ps. Borrowing monies from those who love our Ndn people.
Really, really sad!!!
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 21, 2009, 03:17:51 am
Some things I've found seriously trouble me.

Carnes is associated with one of the worser exploiter institutions, Naropa. Naropa has promoted several frauds and had them on staff and has a history of being very abusive towards Native people who object to their exploitations.

The content of the courses don't seem to me an issue. But IMO Carnes needs to explain if he knew about their exploitative history before signing up with them, and also how much funding he receives from Naropa.

http://www.naropa.edu/academics/graduate/enviro/alp4.cfm
"Applied Leadership Project
Participating Organizations...
Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Ben Carnes: eaglemountainsc@earthlink.net
219 County Road 571
Gardner, Huerfano County
719-495-6992"

On Carnes yahoo group most of the content is online petitions or calls to action, etc, along with notices for the sundance. But there is also a woman who does "healing workshops." Please explain. The post makes it clear she is endorsed by the group's leaders.

--------------------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/message/1322
Grandma Shirley healing workshop....
Saturday: We will be starting the entire group at 9am so Grandma says it's
probably best
if people get there at like 8:30 so we can say our hello's and get comfortable.
If anyone wants to bring pillows or blankets, that may help with overall comfort. We will
all be sitting all day, so be ready for whatever you may need to stay relaxed. Dress
comfortably as well.

We will break for lunch around one, eat, and then proceed into the afternoon
session.
We will break for dinner and may move into a night session depending on what
people are
wanting. Grandma will be laying groundwork on what we are up against, and what
we
need to do for the next steps to be taken.

Grandma decided also that we will leave sunday open to be discussed tomorrow.
We need
to leave my house by 2:30 in order to get here where she need to be on time, but
she is
more than willing to do an additional morning session on Sunday if we so choose
tomorrow....

IMPORTANT Note: This is an amazing opportunity that Grandma Shirley if
providing to us.
She has purchased her own plane ticket to be here for us(IN COLORADO). If you
are
wiggling out of this "NOW REDUCED" schedule, you may want to think again. There
is a
truly amazing gift sitting right within reach. You can not buy what she is
giving, so I ask
you, "Do you want to Heal?" & "What are you willing to do about it?" She has
come to us
with NO expectation, only tough love, and a sincere willingness to see this
thing
through(WITH US). We are talking about some driving and time with family here.
Even the
most broke of us can afford that! I don't think that it's too much to ask of
our community
to meet her half way. I love you all sooooo much!!! See you soon! Kelsie

---------------------------------

Also a member promoting a Nuage leader and fraud.

-------------------------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/message/1323
dear relatives, i have seen this man talk before and the information he brings is transformational. i encourage you to watch this video and pass it on. with love, hope

Drunvalo is speaking for the Elders of our planet ... it is inspiring, informative, relevant ... so inspiring I've watched it 3 times already this afternoon.  Hope you are inspired to watch it too.   34 minutes. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=224192221381464375&ei=lpR2SZGnHqS2qAO52Py1BA&q=drunvalo

--------------------------------

At NAFPS we insist that everyone, including Carnes' supporters, stick to the topic when they answer.



Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: niska on February 21, 2009, 07:21:05 am
There are serious questions about Carnes and his group, and no amount of spamming, personal attacks on their critics, or other attempts to distract or change the subject will stop the questions from being asked. That includes Niska's threatening to hold her breath til she turns blue if we don't give in. She'll be banned at the next spam post, and won't be missed. In fact we can actually discuss instead of having to deal with childishness for a change.

These questions have been raised before, most notably by Kenny Frost. Carnes also has been criticized by Bernard Red Cherries and others.

These questions come down to:
1. Carnes runs what he calls a Sundance on Ute sacred land. He does this without the backing and with the actual opposition of Ute elders.
2. Carnes is Choctaw but runs an imitation of a Lakota ceremony. He also has appointed himself a "chief".
3. The Sundance has many non-Natives, including white Nuagers who occasionally promote Nuage ideas or leaders.
4. Carnes is accused of selling this ceremony and/or soliciting donations inappropriately.

There are also some other troubling things, which I'll go into in the next post. But here's Frost's statement. Carnes response is there too, along with comments on both posts.

The comments on that post are something else. A lot of smears on Frost for supposedly not signing his post, when the name was xxxed out by someone else. A lot of personal attacks and attempts to sidetrack and ignore the issues. IOW, the same behavior some of Carnes' supporters have done here.

At least IMHO, much of these problems could be avoided if Carnes would speak to Ute leaders, since he is conducting the ceremony on what he admits is likely their land.

----------------------
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=113824469&page=2
Selling Native Spirituality alive,well in Colorado
----------------- Bulletin Message
From: xxxxx
Date: Sep 8, 2008 10:33 PM

The time has come when we must expose those, who sell out Native Religion. We like to think those who run/conduct ceremonies are good people but we always find there are frauds around us. Even in our own people who are Native and there are those who are non-Native as well.

We read many times in the newspaper how many of those "SELF-APPOINTED" spiritual leader have committed fraud and have used people for their own source of income.

We need to wake up and stop these people. A sun dance is held here in Colorado and our Ute people are awaking up and saying enough is enough the time has come to stop people who are not of our people to run/conduct "Sacred Native Ceremonies."
 
We must expose those who are fakes and the time is now!

I'm a Ute Indian and do chase fakes in Colorado and other states. Having the support of Natives in Colorado, western US and Indian Country. I have been to the "Selling of Lakota Spirituality" meeting held at Bear Butte with Arvol Looking Horse, Bernard Cherries and many of the other spiritual leaders of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nokota peoples. Also with the Northern Cheyenne leaders and have the back of many Native tribes in Indian Country. Along with Indian Country Today newspaper and will send information of this travesty of fraud being committee.

The area where Ben Carnes lives is a sacred area for the Ute people just as other areas of all of Colorado is sacred to the Ute people. Having the backing of the Ute elders, we find the outrages conduct of Ben Carnes is shameful, deceitful and a fraud.

As a person who conducts ceremonies here on my Ute reservation you would never see me run/conduct a ceremony on other Indian tribal lands as this isn't RIGHT!!

Ben Carnes states he is Choctaw but living in Colorado. Running a Lakota style sun dance with non-Native taken part in fact, I was contacted by a non-Native who stated they given gifts, monies to Ben Carnes for his services and payment to attend this ceremony.

Our Native ceremonies are not "FOR SALE. Ben Carnes is a hypocrite.
How can a person talk about those who sell ceremonies and Ben is doing the same thing?

He travels north to Yellowstone and received payment for gas, food and lodge from the same white woman who has been selling ceremonies across the US.

I would like to learn these answers to these same questions. I will make a call to the Social Services department of Colorado for find out if this is true. In fact I will also make a call to the State of Colorado of impending fraud perhaps being committed. We must get down to the root of this.

This sun dance has never been approved by the Ute Nation of Colorado and of the Ute Nation of Utah as this are traditional territories of the Ute people.

So please Ben Carnes I would like to know the answers of these questions pose to you. As, being knowledge able of Choctaw people they were not many chiefs but were other types of leaders.

How can you call yourself a Chief? When you never received this from your own people?

The time is now to weed out those who take people for a ride in Colorado as I've been to quiet here in Colorado but been involved in other states exposing frauds and now it is time to work in my own state!

I will pose these questions now?

I find this is a mo of many of those who use people for their own selfish means!!

xxxxx

Ps. Borrowing monies from those who love our Ndn people.
Really, really sad!!!


so are you imposing that carnes is not a good ndn? as like me and other natives that live here in the homeland we fought for years.. an now its up to others to choose what can happen and not happen? ben carnes is as native as I am.. accepted by the rule of other natives.. if he had been gien that right to practice sundance.. what and who says its not? because the one thing that most and all native people share on this earth is sweatlodge.. and to that root of what I do in my own backyard.. who is going to tell me to stop taking a sweat in my own yard? you see where I am going with this? and also what we share as natives is the hand drum the big drum. the feather eagle feather that I own as those natives own... but if you see a none native with that.. I totally would agree to take that from the none-native such as this thread and topic is getting in the issue of traditions.. maybe its tim people need to back off on ben carnes as his doings..what who sys he says and she says.. we are in the fight for something right.. freedom for natives.. not who is the better native.. taking that spiritual pride away from a native is dead ass wrong.. let me take some from you tell you that you cannot practice it.. and le me see yu in that hurt in front of the creator.. you see where I am going with this again.. it dahm well hurts a natives pride and human feelings when you want to stripe them of what they enjoy doing in life... I now dare you to remove me once again.. you outcat me..you might as will say bye to alot of people in this public forum.. once again.. you went against native rights as a human being.... as what is appropriate and not.. in this forum as well.. as I said the truth will always comeback hard.. perfection is an evil word.. as I said before..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on February 21, 2009, 02:53:03 pm
 Niska,  Once again, keep to the issues at hand..  Those are the ones posted last evening.  Preoccupation with certain people will be edited.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 21, 2009, 10:35:21 pm
Niska,  Once again, keep to the issues at hand..  Those are the ones posted last evening.  Preoccupation with certain people will be edited.  Thanks.
I am now.. I am just finding info on alot of people in here...? hmmmm kinda makes me wonder about some of these people themselves using real natives? but thanks...

exactly kimmy .. finding information on people and wondering about these people using real natives etc .. using real ndn's and even sometimes being ndn themselves .. using others .. to give legitimacy to their organizations .. using real ndn's and real ndn organizations for their own agenda, their goals, and their own personal gain .. using real ndn's etc to give themselves some modicum of credibility in what they are doing and in ndn country .. .. etc .. ..

that is why we MUST question!.. especially when we see something wrong going on! .. .. .. .. .. ... ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 21, 2009, 11:06:32 pm
Niska,  Once again, keep to the issues at hand..  Those are the ones posted last evening.  Preoccupation with certain people will be edited.  Thanks.
I am now.. I am just finding info on alot of people in here...? hmmmm kinda makes me wonder about some of these people themselves using real natives? but thanks...

exactly kimmy .. finding information on people and wondering about these people using real natives etc .. using real ndn's and even sometimes being ndn themselves .. using others .. to give legitimacy to their organizations .. using real ndn's and real ndn organizations for their own agenda, their goals, and their own personal gain .. using real ndn's etc to give themselves some modicum of credibility in what they are doing and in ndn country .. .. etc .. ..

that is why we MUST question!.. especially when we see something wrong going on! .. .. .. .. .. ... ..


  Out of curiosity, I would like to ask your point of view on something Dr.Al pointed out that I seen a friend of yours complain about as well.

  It has been pointed out that some have a problem with Ben allowing non Indians into ceremony. If these people are not neuagers and are coming in a good way without the intent of taking what they learn to be exploiters; then what is the problem with that?

 Isn't a person who does such things to help people obligated to help other human beings?

 I have know very good elders who were without  doubt Indian and not exploiters allow non's into sweats.

 If this is wrong for them to do, then don't you think that a person that has no proof of who they are and look like another race should not be allowed in as well?

 In the eyes of many even Dr.Al himself is not Indian, and in the eyes of many so is your friend Walks a non Indian.

 Many who would not even know your friend would say he is just white and a non Indian; some would say the same about you because you look totally white yourself. I don't know if you  are enrolled or not, and honestly I don't care as it is a non issue with me personally.

 Still I am posing these questions based on the dialogue you have started and the words of Dr.Al
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 21, 2009, 11:28:58 pm


   I also want to say that if it comes out and is proven that Ben Carnes is charging money for ceremony that I agree it is wrong.


  My point in this discussion however has centered around where I see people bringing in personal agenda's and double standards, and I think that is wrong.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 21, 2009, 11:33:16 pm
I do remember this post by Kenny and when there was discussion on the myspace board about it.  after he made this post and allegations based on what someone else had told him, he was told of the money situation, the personal reasons for that person telling a one sided story and then he retracted a bit stating that he really didn't know Walks personally.  So based on some of his accusations against Ben, they came from a man he didn't know.  One Who is not well liked or trusted and has personal issues with Ben.  The same man who told lies about me in that very same thread.  Lies that can be proven false.

If anyone wants me to find the link to that thread so that they can read it themselves, just let me know.  I know that this board is not for the personal issues between people so I won't post it here, but it does show Kenny retracting his association with Walks, who gave him mis information.


Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on February 22, 2009, 01:05:57 am
I agree it should not be on personal issues, nor just spamming the list.  Address the issues put forth.  If mamaduck has a retraction why not put it up.  Cause that is what is needed.  The problem is you should know the answers before you post them, not smoke screens.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 22, 2009, 02:06:00 am
  .
Quote
  If mamaduck has a retraction why not put it up.
 


  Well in at least one case, I am not sure if it would be considered personal or not. One of the individuals in this thread openly was lying on a public board about Mamaduck herself. So that issue could be pointed out as to show the integrity, or lack thereof in one of the individuals in this thread. However would that be considered applicable in this situation?

  I am sure that in a court of law that pointing out such an instance of open lying as this particular individual did would probably be allowed as evidence to show that what they are saying on another matter should be looked at with great skepticism, and understood that what they may be saying, is being said for ulterior motives, and not for what they are stating that they are saying them for.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on February 22, 2009, 02:16:02 am
Okay I misunderstood, thought Kenny had retracted something he said about Ben Carnes.   The association retraction get too confusing. Thanks
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 22, 2009, 02:54:21 am
  I understand that Kenny might be upset if Ben Carnes has not asked him or any Ute elders for permission to hold ceremonies on their traditional territory.

  I was taught that if you are going to hold a ceremony on the lands of another people, that you should first ask permission from those people who's land you wish to hold it on.

 I have a friend who has a family sweat on his own property. He is not from California, but rather from a tribe in Oregon. Not only did he ask the elders of his own tribe for permission to hold sweats, but he also asked them from the tribe here who's home territory he resides in.

 So yes, I do agree it is proper to ask for this permission to hold ceremony on the land of another people if you wish to hold ceremony on their lands. I have heard instances of the same being done for commercial things such as powwows, especially when it comes to allowing women behind the drum which some tribes actually do, and many powwows allow that now days.

  Kenny Frost says that Ben has never asked for permission, but I have also heard that Kenny Frost won't even discuss that matter anyhow. If that is true, then I must ask why?

 If it turns out that these accusations about Ben are proven to be false; then will thing about him having ceremony on Ute lands still be an issue?

 I honestly believe that if he is proven not to be an exploiter, then this issue should be resolved so that it is not constantly coming up.

 Maybe in the past Sun dancers were not held in this area, but then again in the past the non Indian had not come here yet and forced tribes, or native individuals to relocate as they have.

 Would a white man honor the Ute Nation saying no he could not build a church on these lands? Better yet would a group of Navajo Mormons bother to ask either, and would they listen if they were told no?

 If it comes to pass that it be proven that Ben is not an exploiter, then I think he and the Utes should speak on this matter and resolved in honorably and respectfully.

 I do feel though that if he is deemed not to be an exploiter that they should allow Ben and his followers to continue what they are doing. Why persecute a traditional person and his follows for doing what they do on those lands, when nothing would be, or could  be done about a group of Christian Indians doing the same?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 22, 2009, 03:08:12 am

  It has been pointed out that some have a problem with Ben allowing non Indians into ceremony. If these people are not neuagers and are coming in a good way without the intent of taking what they learn to be exploiters; then what is the problem with that?

 Isn't a person who does such things to help people obligated to help other human beings?

 I have know very good elders who were without  doubt Indian and not exploiters allow non's into sweats.

 If this is wrong for them to do, then don't you think that a person that has no proof of who they are and look like another race should not be allowed in as well?

 In the eyes of many even Dr.Al himself is not Indian, and in the eyes of many so is your friend Walks a non Indian.

Rattlebone, for someone who has said several times we should be careful about whose word we listen to, I'm amazed you accept obvious lies from extremely dubious sources. The ones who have said I'm not NDN are exploiters and their supporters, along with supporters of white supremacist (who claims to be part Comanche) David Yeagley. I suppose you would accept a Nazi's word about who is and isn't Jewish? A KKK member's word about if Obama is Black?

The question you raise is something that's been brought up many times in other threads. Some NDNs do oppose letting people outside the community into ceremony. Some don't if they come in a good way (although separating out who comes in a good way can be very difficult.)

If Carnes and EMC publicly say they allow nonNatives in, then that discussion over the rightness of it should go on in those other threads in here, not this one. To me, and to others, the problem is that you have at least some who are not coming in a good way, and who clearly are Nuagers, such as the one who promoted a fraud, Drunvalo Menchadezek (sp?) on the EMC yahoo group.

You bring up sweats, but sweats have a healing purpose. To me at least, a sweat that, for example, helps heal a nonNative veteran of PTSD is aclearlu good thing. But the Sundance is meant to tie the people of a nation together. How would letting nonNatives in fit with that?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 22, 2009, 03:23:23 am
"Grandmother Shirley" is apparently Shirley Barclay, described by some as a white hippie Nuage nurse. She apparently attended the EMC Sundance in 2007 and some accounts says she caused quite a bit of problems. I would like some of Carnes' supporters to address the question of her.
 
Here's a description of her on an altmedicine/alternative pyschology site:

http://psychodramacertification.com/index.php?name=Directory&s3mode=show&s3uid=40
"Shirley A. Barclay R.N., M.S.N., C.N.S., L.M.F.T., T.E.P.
Address
Dallas & Seattle Training Institute
for Psychodrama & Sociometry
411 Bond St.
Red Oak, TX 75154
Office Phone: 214-673-4195....
Shirley A. Barclay has been a Certified Trainer in Psychodrama, Sociometry and Group Psychotherapy since 1978. She is a Life Member and Fellow of the ASGPP. She is a certified Marriage and Family Therapist and is also a Clinical Nurse Specialist in Psychiatric Mental Health Nursing. She is a Trained Healer in two Native American traditions and works with the interface of the Western and Indigenous Traditions when she is training and working with her students. She has traveled and taught in Europe, the Far East, the Middle East, the U.S., and South America over the past 25 + years and continues to do so. She is a member of the American Counseling Association and the American Multi Cultural Division of that organization. She is also on the Board of The Center of Health and Whole Healing, Inc., and on the Board of the Texas Cherokee's. She is a Wolf Clan Mother and healer for the Cherokee people of Texas. She has walked a Lakota path for 28 years and is a Pipe Carrier, and Sun Dancer...."
 
I deleted the home and cell phone nos.

A Cherokee claiming to be a Lakota healer? Yet another pipe carrier?
The Texas Cherokees are an unrecognized group who have many actual Cherokees, but also many who probably are not, or are better described as descendants.
Steve Russell, a Cherokee law professor, once told me that Cherokee generally don't discuss their clan with outsiders, as it was not any of their business.
So I'm not sure if Barlcay is what she says she is.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 22, 2009, 03:29:49 am
If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 22, 2009, 04:09:35 am


Quote
Rattlebone, for someone who has said several times we should be careful about whose word we listen to, I'm amazed you accept obvious lies from extremely dubious sources. The ones who have said I'm not NDN are exploiters and their supporters, along with supporters of white supremacist (who claims to be part Comanche) David Yeagley. I suppose you would accept a Nazi's word about who is and isn't Jewish? A KKK member's word about if Obama is Black?

 Oh I never said I believed what they said about you. I said what I said in reference to you, as to make a point. The person whom I was making this point to is friends with a person whom from what I have seen them say; does not think you are Indian unless you are enrolled and of a certain BQ.

 I have my doubts that Tachia herself is enrolled, and is probably less then 1/4. Then we have Walks who has no proof that he is Indian at all, I am sure is far less then 1/4.

 I don't believe in the concept of BQ, and nor do I feel that enrollment is something that determines the claims somebody has to be Indian is truth or not. So what I said about Tachia and Walks above was not to be an insult against them.

 However it is my belief that some of what they say here, is coming from their support of an individual who has issues with Mr. Carnes that I feel are more based on jealousy then anything else. Yet this individual I won't name would probably not view these two as Indian if they were not on the same side in this issue.

 So if anything, I was trying to catch them in hypocrisy, since I find it odd how some who would probably not be considered Indian by many; would jump on a band wagon and complain about nons being allowed in ceremony when at least one them just might be nothing more then white themselves. Then being unenrolled, would be seen as non by most.

 So it was not to say I believe what your detractors say about you, but to make a much larger point based on many many factors.




Quote
You bring up sweats, but sweats have a healing purpose. To me at least, a sweat that, for example, helps heal a nonNative veteran of PTSD is aclearlu good thing. But the Sundance is meant to tie the people of a nation together. How would letting nonNatives in fit with that?


  I am not a Sundancer, most likely never will be, and fully admit it is not something I know very much about. However I do have friends that do Sundance, and some that do know about it. They told me that there are some Sundances in which they are not supposed to turn anyone away, even if they are non Native.  They also said that there are some that do not allow outsiders unless they know somebody and are invited.



 In regards to ceremony and Native ways I am against exploitation just as much as others on this site are. However I do believe that we are all created by the same creator,and I do not believe in this thing called race. I myself, am honestly not big on the idea of allowing nons in native ceremonies, but I am not against it as long as those who are allowed do come in a good way and don't take what they have learned to exploit.

 

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 22, 2009, 08:50:08 am
If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 

Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 22, 2009, 12:50:47 pm
Quote
Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.

Mammaduck , could youy please show me where this was explained? I guess the 9 pages of flaming make the truth hard to find.   All I see is this ...

Reply #20
Ben Carnes
Quote
As I see it from my experience, I pray and the Creator lets me know what I must do and whenever I follow my directions, some really wonderful things have happened. So I know the Creator supports me in what I do.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 23, 2009, 08:35:41 am
I thought that I saw it in the very first thread that was posted about Ben.  The one were Ben himself posted as well as his wife.  If it was not posted there than maybe it was posted from in a group on myspace.  If that's the case, i appologize and will try to find it.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 24, 2009, 05:53:56 am
since it was brought up in here, i thought i would go and at least look again at the front page of the carnes yahoo group for their widely promoted "eagle mountain spiritual council".. interesting to say the least .. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/ .. is now set to private, "members" only, access to even the front page denied ..
 i have not had "member" access for many, many months now, yet it used to be that you could at least see the groups front page, their "about us",  even if you could not get in .. .. hmmmmm .. what have they to hide?? .. the carnes speak publicly about their organization: ego, ooops sorry, eagle mountain spiritual council, ALL the time, promote it everywhere, ask for "donations" .. etc! ..

and as soon as certain things in the group/organization are being questioned in here, they restrict it to "members" only .. exactly what are they hiding?? .. and from whom??.. and why?? .. .. IF their "eagle mountain spiritual council" IS a legitimate organization, as they claim, with nothing questionable to hide then why hide anything?? .. .. .. ..

if a group or organization is "secret" .. there is a problem .. .. jmo .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on February 24, 2009, 05:52:11 pm
Well, it may be as simple as not wanting their business public.  If they are conducting private business within the group, it can be protected.  This is not rocket science.  We have been through the same thing.  You have wild people coming in with personal agendas.  It was suggested we do the same.  But that would defeat our purpose as an education group.  So we just deal with it.  I think we are waiting on specific answers to some questions, so lets be patient.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 24, 2009, 05:52:44 pm
since it was brought up in here, i thought i would go and at least look again at the front page of the carnes yahoo group for their widely promoted "eagle mountain spiritual council".. interesting to say the least .. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/ .. is now set to private, "members" only, access to even the front page denied ..
 i have not had "member" access for many, many months now, yet it used to be that you could at least see the groups front page, their "about us",  even if you could not get in .. .. hmmmmm .. what have they to hide?? .. the carnes speak publicly about their organization: ego, ooops sorry, eagle mountain spiritual council, ALL the time, promote it everywhere, ask for "donations" .. etc! ..

and as soon as certain things in the group/organization are being questioned in here, they restrict it to "members" only .. exactly what are they hiding?? .. and from whom??.. and why?? .. .. IF their "eagle mountain spiritual council" IS a legitimate organization, as they claim, with nothing questionable to hide then why hide anything?? .. .. .. ..

if a group or organization is "secret" .. there is a problem .. .. jmo .. .. .. ..


  Have you ever ran or moderated any type of website or online group yourself?

 If you had you would know that a lot of the times people post things on there when you are not around that you might not like. If you happen to be away from your computer at the time they do, you might not be able to delete what was said and speak to the poster about it.

[Childish insults, gossip, and insinuations removed. Grow up, RB.]
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 24, 2009, 06:21:29 pm
If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 


Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.


Mamaduck, I've been looking trying to see where Ben has answered these questions already , and I'm not having much luck finding it. Could you post a link to where this is located?

As a lot of people don't seem to understand why these questions get asked, I thought it might be helpful to post links to a couple of threads with some general discussions about the Protection of Ceremonies

The thread below is an interesting exploration of why protecting Lakota Ceremonies is even controversial
in the first place

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

and this thread below explores whats the harm of when these ceremonies get removed from being practiced in the context of a strong traditional community.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0

These general concerns seem to be very complex and are about a lot more than any individual, or Ben Carnes specifically ......

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 24, 2009, 11:57:38 pm
I've been looking for the thread on myspace where Ben and Cat both explained all those answers.  It was also one that Tachia Hawk posted in and defended the Carnes in.  I want to say it was through Fools Crow but can not answer for the Carnes.  Rattlebone, do you remember the groups that was posted in.  I am hoping it wasn't brightstars group because she would have deleted it with her last profile on myspace.

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 25, 2009, 12:07:06 am
"Grandmother Shirley" is apparently Shirley Barclay, described by some as a white hippie Nuage nurse. She apparently attended the EMC Sundance in 2007 and some accounts says she caused quite a bit of problems. I would like some of Carnes' supporters to address the question of her.
 
Here's a description of her on an altmedicine/alternative pyschology site:

http://psychodramacertification.com/index.php?name=Directory&s3mode=show&s3uid=40
"Shirley A. Barclay R.N., M.S.N., C.N.S., L.M.F.T., T.E.P.
Address
Dallas & Seattle Training Institute
for Psychodrama & Sociometry
411 Bond St.
Red Oak, TX 75154
Office Phone: 214-673-4195....
Shirley A. Barclay has been a Certified Trainer in Psychodrama, Sociometry and Group Psychotherapy since 1978. She is a Life Member and Fellow of the ASGPP. She is a certified Marriage and Family Therapist and is also a Clinical Nurse Specialist in Psychiatric Mental Health Nursing. She is a Trained Healer in two Native American traditions and works with the interface of the Western and Indigenous Traditions when she is training and working with her students. She has traveled and taught in Europe, the Far East, the Middle East, the U.S., and South America over the past 25 + years and continues to do so. She is a member of the American Counseling Association and the American Multi Cultural Division of that organization. She is also on the Board of The Center of Health and Whole Healing, Inc., and on the Board of the Texas Cherokee's. She is a Wolf Clan Mother and healer for the Cherokee people of Texas. She has walked a Lakota path for 28 years and is a Pipe Carrier, and Sun Dancer...."
 
I deleted the home and cell phone nos.

A Cherokee claiming to be a Lakota healer? Yet another pipe carrier?
The Texas Cherokees are an unrecognized group who have many actual Cherokees, but also many who probably are not, or are better described as descendants.
Steve Russell, a Cherokee law professor, once told me that Cherokee generally don't discuss their clan with outsiders, as it was not any of their business.
So I'm not sure if Barlcay is what she says she is.

Al ..
"grandmother shirley" (shirley barclay), in addition to attending the 2007 EMSC "sundance"  also attended the 2008 EMSC "sundance" .. and further, i was told that at the 2008  EMSC "sundance "grandmother shirley" was "made" an "Elder" .. whatever that means, i have limited knowledge of the Sundance, it is not my peoples tradition/ceremony .. perhaps someone on the board who is DLN could answer that? .. Earth7 perhaps? ..

i agree with you .. it would certainly behoove the carnes or someone to address the question of shirley barclay's involvement (as well as all the other questions that are going unanswered) .. imo this barclay woman sure seems to be exactly what some have said she is .. a "white/hippie/nuage" something or another ..

after reading what you found on barclay and her own words .. there are a lot of questions that i would like to see answered about harclay .. but that is probably for a whole other thread so as to not distract from the subject of this one .. ..

but i do think we all would like to have some answers about her involvement in EMSC, the EMSC "sundance" .. etc .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 25, 2009, 12:40:07 am
I've been looking for the thread on myspace where Ben and Cat both explained all those answers.  It was also one that Tachia Hawk posted in and defended the Carnes in.  I want to say it was through Fools Crow but can not answer for the Carnes.  Rattlebone, do you remember the groups that was posted in.  I am hoping it wasn't brightstars group because she would have deleted it with her last profile on myspace.

yvette ..

the only other thread on this subject was indeed in brights group in myspace .. at the same time that dani began her thread in here, in april 08, she also began one in brights group .. the two threads were going on simultaneously .. and yes at that time i was defending the carnes, and as you know, i have since retracted my previous support of them, their organization etc ..

that group was deleted when bright deleted her profile from myspace .. i can say though that ben never posted in brights myspace group .. cat did and others too, but not ben .. i know this because i was in their home when all of that was going back in april .. as was stated, by myself and others, at that time ben was working in pueblo and  had no internet access, he was only able to go home for the weekend and make a couple of posts in here ..nothing more ..  that whole thread in brights group was merely "typical" of myspace (flaming etc)..  i saw no answers to any questions in there ..

what do you mean "i want to say it was through Fools Crow"? .. to which question is that an "answer" to?? .. i am confused lol .. sorry, i do not understand what your saying is all ..
 
i believe that your right yvette .. you nor anyone else can answer for the carnes .. i felt that way back in april as well, and stated such .. as a matter of fact ben said the same thing, that he would prefer to answer for himself .. .. .. when any of us attempt to answer for someone else it merely muddles everything, and often makes things worse rather than better .. ..

cat was very quick last april to respond, as was ben when he was able to .. i do not understand why they cannot do so again, you know? .. it would best if they were to answer for themselves rather than all of this innuendo etc ..  ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 25, 2009, 01:11:13 am
I do remember this post by Kenny and when there was discussion on the myspace board about it.  after he made this post and allegations based on what someone else had told him, he was told of the money situation, the personal reasons for that person telling a one sided story and then he retracted a bit stating that he really didn't know Walks personally.  So based on some of his accusations against Ben, they came from a man he didn't know.  One Who is not well liked or trusted and has personal issues with Ben.  The same man who told lies about me in that very same thread.  Lies that can be proven false.

If anyone wants me to find the link to that thread so that they can read it themselves, just let me know.  I know that this board is not for the personal issues between people so I won't post it here, but it does show Kenny retracting his association with Walks, who gave him mis information.

yvette .. i for one, would like for you to verify this "information" as please .. give a link to where Kenny posted any sort of  "retraction" .. .. i also remember the discussion your referring to,  if i remember correctly it was yet another myspace flame war .. this time against Kenny (and others) and some very ugly things were said about Kenny .. i do not remember seeing Kenny himself post at all .. actually i have never seen Kenny post in any group, not even this one .. if you cannot back this bit of supposed "knowledge" up with a link to where it was said by Kenny, then all you are doing is blowing  smoke and attempting to plant seeds of doubt that are unfounded in the minds of others .. .. .. .. ..

i do not care about the personal issues that you have with others .. i ONLY care about facts and the truth of what you are attempting to say about Kenny in regards to this thread and this topic .. .. so please do not go off on a personal rant again .. thank you
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on February 25, 2009, 01:21:09 am
If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 


Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.


Mamaduck, I've been looking trying to see where Ben has answered these questions already , and I'm not having much luck finding it. Could you post a link to where this is located?

As a lot of people don't seem to understand why these questions get asked, I thought it might be helpful to post links to a couple of threads with some general discussions about the Protection of Ceremonies

The thread below is an interesting exploration of why protecting Lakota Ceremonies is even controversial
in the first place

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

and this thread below explores whats the harm of when these ceremonies get removed from being practiced in the context of a strong traditional community.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0

These general concerns seem to be very complex and are about a lot more than any individual, or Ben Carnes specifically ......

moma, thanks for posting this with the links so that others can see why these specific questions have need to be asked and have need to be answered, also with specifics not vague references to validity .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on February 25, 2009, 02:05:05 am
I haven't seen any fact from anyone from the beginning aside from personal issues.  This is all he says and she says and a lot of hyperactivity.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on February 25, 2009, 03:18:07 am
I have not come in here creating drama on any personal rant Tachia.  [Childish insult] I am trying to be helpful.  Look for the information asked for.  I did find the "What a hateful soul" thread on myspace where kenny did infact post in.  But noticed that Walks deleted one of his profiles that wipped out all of the false accusations he made and was proven a liar.  [More childish insults]

If someone wants the link to it, they can ask me for it personally.  I hope to spare people the 30 some odd pages of a drama war between you and john and everyone else.

But we are not here to prove if Kenny posted in a myspace group (which he in fact did), we are here show both sides of the accusations on Ben and get to the bottom of these accusations of fraud against him. 

[Al's note: Leave the childish insults out from now on.]
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 25, 2009, 04:13:37 am
All the personal comments and pushing isn't helping resolve this.

We all have personalities, personal motives, and we all sometimes don't communicate in a clear or respectful way. This message board can't fix that.

As i see it, the main question, about the Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, the Sundance associated with it, and Ben acting as the Sundance Chief is if this has sufficent support from recognized Elders and traditional leaders.

it seems it would work better if we try and get the main question dealt with before we worry about all the details.         
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 25, 2009, 05:10:27 am
I do remember this post by Kenny and when there was discussion on the myspace board about it.  after he made this post and allegations based on what someone else had told him, he was told of the money situation, the personal reasons for that person telling a one sided story and then he retracted a bit stating that he really didn't know Walks personally.  So based on some of his accusations against Ben, they came from a man he didn't know.  One Who is not well liked or trusted and has personal issues with Ben.  The same man who told lies about me in that very same thread.  Lies that can be proven false.

If anyone wants me to find the link to that thread so that they can read it themselves, just let me know.  I know that this board is not for the personal issues between people so I won't post it here, but it does show Kenny retracting his association with Walks, who gave him mis information.

yvette .. i for one, would like for you to verify this "information" as please .. give a link to where Kenny posted any sort of  "retraction" .. .. i also remember the discussion your referring to,  if i remember correctly it was yet another myspace flame war .. this time against Kenny (and others) and some very ugly things were said about Kenny .. i do not remember seeing Kenny himself post at all .. actually i have never seen Kenny post in any group, not even this one .. if you cannot back this bit of supposed "knowledge" up with a link to where it was said by Kenny, then all you are doing is blowing  smoke and attempting to plant seeds of doubt that are unfounded in the minds of others .. .. .. .. ..

i do not care about the personal issues that you have with others .. i ONLY care about facts and the truth of what you are attempting to say about Kenny in regards to this thread and this topic .. .. so please do not go off on a personal rant again .. thank you

  You are blatantly lying here miss.

 There was no flame war against Kenny, and never was. There was in fact a blog written that was a racial attack in people who marry non Indians, and mixed bloods. Many of us believe it was in fact a blog written as an attack upon two mixed race couples, and one of those couples was the Carnes.

I pointed that blog out, and that is when your [libelous insult] buddy Walks came...[Irrelevant rant removed]

 I do know that Kenny then came to that thread and said some things, and yea we told him off as well. I don't care who Kenny Frost is, and I never will, and I will leave it at that.

[Irrelevant rant removed]
[More ranting removed] [Possible libel removed][Personal attacks removed]

[Al's note: I will not warn you anymore, RB, esp when you keep saying things that could be outright libel.]

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 25, 2009, 05:17:37 am
I have not come in here creating drama on any personal rant Tachia.  This would be your doing.  Look in the mirror.  I am trying to be helpful.  Look for the information asked for.  I did find the "What a hateful soul" thread on myspace where kenny did infact post in.  But noticed that Walks deleted one of his profiles that wipped out all of the false accusations he made and was proven a liar.  Very clever game you two are playing.  ;)

If someone wants the link to it, they can ask me for it personally.  I hope to spare people the 30 some odd pages of a drama war between you and john and everyone else.

But we are not here to prove if Kenny posted in a myspace group (which he in fact did), we are here show both sides of the accusations on Ben and get to the bottom of these accusations of fraud against him.  Right?

 the hateful soul thread was indeed the thread  that I wrote,where Kenny showed up blasting Ben Carnes. A number of us had never heard of him, and didn't care who he was. We thought he was just some troll profile.

 Since that time a number of people keep saying "shame on them for flaming Kenny Frost." The truth is until that day most of us had never heard of him.

 Most of Walks's posts were deleted by myspace when his profile was deleted by myspace after I supplied evidence to them [of alleged criminal activity]

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 25, 2009, 08:18:23 am
Several things stand out:

After we made it clear that we weren't going to be deterred by any attempts to sidetrack the questions being asked, the members and supporters of EMC became conspicuously silent, something we hadn't seen before.

Then they went back to the same old sidetrack attempts.

Virtually none of the questions have been answered, or even addressed by EMC members, other than to try and cause confusion.

Carnes is a Choctaw claiming to run a Lakota ceremony. Maybe Fools Crow said he could, maybe not. EMC members either don't know or won't say.

He is doing this on Ute land, without permission and with their opposition.

And the EMC answer? To me it's amazing and appalling at the same time:

"We don't care who Frost is, and never will."
"Maybe Frost retracted, maybe he didn't. Not sure."

I'm still waiting for someone in EMC to address Barclay being sponsored by the EMC. But somehow I doubt I'll get a straight answer.

This thread now has over 7000 views. If the EMC had just come clean right away, that amount of negative attention could have been avoided.

Not since the Catholic church tried to hide that some of its priests were molesters have I seen any religious/spiritual group go to so much trouble to try and duck responsibility.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 25, 2009, 09:25:43 pm
Several things stand out:



Quote
"We don't care who Frost is, and never will."


  Why did you change my words from "I" to "we?"

I have already stated in this thread that I am not a member of EMC and never was. Neither is Mama duck as far as I know. I am simply speaking my mind on this issue and so you should not edit my words here to say "we" because it looks like I am speaking for the Carnes and the EMC, which I am not.

 The only "we" that could be involved in my statements would have been possibly by those who flamed Kenny, and that was because most that did were under the belief that his profile was a troll and not even him. This was on top of the fact that many did not even know who he was. This "many" I speak of does not include the Carnes or the EMC either.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 26, 2009, 06:46:55 am
What exactly is your's and MD's stake in this, then? Why go to weeks of effort to go after critics of Carnes? And not just simply stating your disagreement, but in your own words "flaming." And on this thread constantly posting accusations that come close to, if not actually being, libelous. I seriously wonder if you are repeatedly trying to post libel to leave this site vulnerable to being shut down on legal grounds.

And after you answer that, how about actually answering the questions about Carnes and EMC? No more sidetracks. We've had weeks of them already.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on February 26, 2009, 06:06:27 pm


Quote
What exactly is your's and MD's stake in this, then? Why go to weeks of effort to go after critics of Carnes?

 Answered in private.





Quote
And not just simply stating your disagreement, but in your own words "flaming."

Answered in private




 
Quote
And on this thread constantly posting accusations that come close to, if not actually being, libelous.


  Answered in private



Quote
I seriously wonder if you are repeatedly trying to post libel to leave this site vulnerable to being shut down on legal grounds.


 Al I have been a member of your site now for over a year or something now correct? I have never posted anything on here that was questionable until now. Of course what is questionable I have answered you about in private. You and I have had some minor differences in opinion in the past, but the discussions were always constructive. If I was going to do that, I could have long ago. Of course I have not because it was not, and is still not my intention.

 As I told you in private, there are side issues here going on that I feel are valid to point out. There are also ones I can't speak about, and will not. This issue here is one I feel strongly about, and so was speaking strongly about.



Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on February 27, 2009, 07:46:29 am
Carnes has sent an email claiming this focus on him is hurting Peltier's cause.

The claim that this will hurt Peltier is nonsense. Carnes is hiding behind that cause when real issue is his proclaiming himself a sundance chief (and nobody seems to know who authorized it, if anyone, or than maybe Fools Crow, who of course is not around to say if that is true or not.)

That, plus his never asking the Utes for permission. Plus the presence of Nuagers inside EMC, and likely frauds like Barclay. These are serious issues, and Carnes and EMC need to answer them instead of hiding behind the cause of Peltier. The Carnes and friends are blowing a lot of smoke to avoid answering anything.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: zoi lightfoot on February 27, 2009, 03:00:05 pm
Tell me then Al,which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted by the nafps witch hunts and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to?The "friend" whose identity you keep hidden,while they troll Peltier support claiming thier work in this group is the reason they stay anonymous?and do the cut and paste rounds of gossip and misinformation?Or the non indian woman who took acception to the fact i like Ben and have respect for him,just because she has a personal axe to grind?What bit of that are you not grasping,we have an innocent man to free and that takes a lot of focus and dedication.Ben answered all the questions previously put to him,so i fail to see why this is still a disruptive topic of conversation.And if Nafps is on form then this will be the cue for your two buddies to jump in yes?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on March 04, 2009, 01:09:41 pm
While Zoi's post (made in the morning) is still here, Al's edits (made in the evening) are gone. Re-posted per Al's request.



zoi lightfoot
Offline
Posts: 136

Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2009, 10:00:05 AM » Quote 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me then Al,which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted by the nafps witch hunts and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to? [Irrelevant rant removed] and do the cut and paste rounds of gossip and misinformation?Or the non indian woman who took acception to the fact i like Ben and have respect for him [Irrelevant rant] [Childish insult],we have an innocent man to free and that takes a lot of focus and dedication.Ben answered all the questions previously put to him,so i fail to see why this is still a disruptive topic of conversation.[Childish insult and personal attack]







[Al's note: Anything off topic gets removed, especially childishness. You already know that. Grow up already.]
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 07:10:45 PM by educatedindian »
 
 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on March 04, 2009, 01:16:20 pm
Another post that went missing. Re-posted per Al's request.


educatedindian
Administrator
Offline
Posts: 2149


Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2009, 07:25:32 PM » Quote 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted"

None of it is disrupted at all that I can see. None. Not a bit. Show us any evidence at all of that.

And if Carnes is hurting the cause he claims to care so much about, then let him do the right thing, which anyone else would do.

Leave.

Leave the Peltier campaign rather than hurt it by continuing to be part when there are serious questions about his conduct.

"by the nafps witch hunts"

Interesting to see you adopting Nuage tactics and terms, Zoi.

Remember that you came to NAFPS, eagerly accepted us and took part in what we did when it suited you. Only when there were serious questions as to your own claims and conduct did you suddenly change, huff and puff and refuse to answer questions, except with insults.

"and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to?"

Nice of you to again show your true colors and adopt the Nuage lies when it suits you.

NAFPS is probably about 80% NDN, but we don't ask anyone to "answer to us." We just ask questions and investigate when others ask us to. (In this case many people inside EMC asked us to.)

NDNs answer to their NDN community.

Carnes has set himself up a community away from other NDN communities, made up of both NDNs and white Nuagers.

Obviously Carnes and the EMC should answer to all NDN communities...

...but esp to the Utes, whose land he is using without permission.

"Ben answered all the questions previously put to him"

Pure lie. He answered none of the questions. Carnes adamantly refuses to answer questions and said so in his last email to us.
 
 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 05, 2009, 12:08:05 am
Carnes has sent an email claiming this focus on him is hurting Peltier's cause.

The claim that this will hurt Peltier is nonsense. Carnes is hiding behind that cause when real issue is his proclaiming himself a sundance chief (and nobody seems to know who authorized it, if anyone, or than maybe Fools Crow, who of course is not around to say if that is true or not.)

That, plus his never asking the Utes for permission. Plus the presence of Nuagers inside EMC, and likely frauds like Barclay. These are serious issues, and Carnes and EMC need to answer them instead of hiding behind the cause of Peltier. The Carnes and friends are blowing a lot of smoke to avoid answering anything.

Al ..
any chance of that email from the carnes being posted in public? ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 05, 2009, 12:23:10 am
also .. i wanted to post this a few days ago .. when we all entered into some sort of twilight zone .. lol .. i was waiting to see if things would go back to normal in here .. so now i will post it .. .. make of it what you will .. .. this "plea for help" was posted as a bulletin in myspace and from what i understand, was also posted in yahoo and other places around the internet .. ..

Date: Feb 28, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: Ben Carnes: re. from "Native American Unity"

Body: Ben Carnes: re.
from "Native American Unity"
Let's act on our name - "Native American Unity"....time to show that Unity!!?

From: messages@webs.com on behalf of nativeamericanunity@gmail.com
Sent: Sat 2/28/09 8:45 AM

Im sending this message out today...with the hopes that many of our members will act on this...that you will show the power of unity...and show the power of our Nations standing side by side together.

A brother needs our support.....he has not asked for this support....he had no idea of my sending this out...and I can only pray he will not be upset with NAU sending this out...but when I see a man who works damned hard for our/his people...I refuse to sit back and say nothing.

However...I want to make something very clear...Im NOT advising members to go to this internet group and post words of support...that would be futile and un-necessary.....Im simply asking members to show your support to Ben himself...let him know he has the support of ndn country...the support of ndn people for all he does.

Ben Carnes is a hard working...self giving Native man who is currently under attack and being questioned by a group of 'internet' people, people who seem to take pride in attacking REAL Native people...people who work hard for ndn community while they themselves hide behind a pc screen....bitching about anything that takes their fancy...without evidence....based on heresay...personal opinions and copy and pasting mis-matched so called 'evidence'....enough is enough!

Ben works VERY hard on the Leonard Peltier case....which we all know is highly important (his wife Cat is also a very hard worker for ndn people) not to mention all the many other things he partakes in....I think it's high time Native people started to stand by their own in support and NOT allow the hatred of others to damage the good reputations and hard work put forth by our people! These are GOOD PEOPLE!!
Contact Ben...show your support!
Ask how we as Native people can help!! We are called "Native American Unity!"....now's the time to act on the name! We have THOUSANDS of members here....USE YOUR VOICES!! Support this brother!

Here is just a small list of all Ben does....he is out there DOING.....he is out there giving all he can to our/his people....


.. .. at this point i cut off the original message as it is merely ben's "resume" .. just a long list of mostly unverifiable "self-promotion" of ben carnes, by ben carnes .. .. .. if anyone would like to read the "resume" of ben carnes, let me know .. i would be glad to post it, i just did not feel as if i would be serving any purpose in posting it in here .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on March 05, 2009, 03:28:21 am
Native American Unity....Tsisqua....Matty Yellowboy....Juan Wild Cat Hall



I can see Ben standing in a pile of socks while more socks fall from the sky. It's raining socks of all colors, shapes, and sizes. Before long, all you can see is the top of Ben's head; he's completely covered up, surrounded by socks. Hey, they're showing their support. And you know what they say . . . Any support is good, no matter where it comes from. Yeah, right.


Thanks for posting this, Tachia.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on March 06, 2009, 02:49:26 am
Research needed?

I agree, and perhaps some of you will be more effective in finding evidence of Ben's credibility than anyone who I have spoken to or worked with have been able to.

Can anyone PROVE that Ben is any of the things he claims he is?

Was he made Sun Dance Chief in a traditionally accepted manner?

Can you prove it?

My understanding was that it came by way of Billy Tyac(sp?) but I may be mistaken there.

Can anyone confirm any of the titles he wears as some badge of honor such as the so called humanitarian award he claims to have received?

Can you prove it?

Can anyone even say for sure that he is enrolled?

There is in fact a Ben Carnes on the Choctaw rolls, however this individual is some kind of artist or author or something like that.....definitely not the Ben I know who is the subject of question here.

Can you prove it?

We are not on some kind of witch hunt here but instead merely want the truth.....what ever that is.

I know Ben and have spent much time face to face with him and have conversed extensively with him.

How many of those who have posted here in support of him can say that?

I have a lot of facts that I know are true because they came from his own mouth however there is no recorded record of it therefor were I to elaborate on that fact it would just become a he said, he said argument which can prove definitively nothing to anyone except myself, so I will not post it.

If there is ANY kind of legitimate proof of any of his claims, lets see it and put this whole issue to rest........PLEASE!!!
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 06, 2009, 06:28:19 pm
Research needed?






Quote
Can anyone even say for sure that he is enrolled?

 
 Since you are not an enrolled member of any tribe, and I believe have no proof of being native; why is this an issue that you are bringing up?

 In the last few years when you and I have been at both odds and on good terms you have spoken of being Cherokee have you not?


 So since you want to bring up the question of enrollment into this equation, I must ask you for an honest answer as to are you enrolled, and if not then why?


 If you are using this question of if Mr.Carnes is enrolled or not, as some way to question or to say he has no right to be doing what he does based on your questioning of his status; then wouldn't that mean that you should not be claiming to be a Cherokee man since I do believe you have no proof?

 Is it true of false that you have had both Danielle and Mama Duck do genealogy work on your background, and they only came up with European ancestors?




Quote
There is in fact a Ben Carnes on the Choctaw rolls, however this individual is some kind of artist or author or something like that.....definitely not the Ben I know who is the subject of question here.

  How exactly would you know something like that?

 To the best of my knowledge most tribal governments do not give out such info on people; especially if they are still living.

 So upon reading this statement from you this morning, and letting them know what you are saying here; I asked the Choctaw enrollment department if they give out such info. The official on the phone said that they do not.

  If you want you or anyone else here  want's to, you  can do the same and give them a call at 800-522-6170.





Quote
Can you prove it?

 I respectfully ask if you can prove you are what you say you are. If my questions are out of line here, then so are yours of anyone.


  Since I have given my word to both Dr.Al and Federica that I will not say things that are questionable on this site, I will  have replied to these statements by you, and have asked you the same questions of yourself  here, that you are of Ben.

 I have tried to do this in a good way, and if it comes across to anyone here as out of line I do give my apologies.

 I will no longer argue about whatever evidence (or so called evidence) or statements any of you post up here unless I can provide evidence of it not being true.

 In all due honesty I do not wish to argue on this topic any longer, but what I spoke of in regards to the things in quotes I feel that you should answer truthfully about yourself if you wish to speak on it in regards to anyone else since it is in my opinion,  that you are being rather hypocritical to make an issue out of these things when the same could easily be asked of you, and the answers to those questions would not be in your favor.

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 06, 2009, 06:44:29 pm
Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 06, 2009, 06:52:26 pm
There does appear to be 2 Choctaw Ben Carnes !

I wonder if they are related?

http://www.shopoklahoma.com/sok_art.htm

Quote
Acrylic Paint, Drawing Pencil, Color Pencils, Chalk

Ben Carnes
He lives in McAlester, OK


The link below is part of the official website of the Choctaw Nation ...

http://www.choctawnation.com/Culture/dsp_ArtistDetails.cfm?ArtistID=7

Quote
  Ben  Carnes

Acrylic Paint, Drawing Pencil, Color Pencils, Chalk

I've also been looking at the connection between Ben Carnes and Billy Tayac and Tomas Eaglebear.

It brings up a lot of questions about when people's good work and activism in one area gets tranfered to another area and may add credibility to an activity  that isn't really related to the area of activism..... it's complicated and I haven't got it figured out what needs to be said or if it even belongs here ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 06, 2009, 06:54:21 pm
Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 


 Okay my apologies if you feel that my questions are sidetracking the issue as it was not, and is not my intention.

 However on the bottom of Walk's post he said

"If there is ANY kind of legitimate proof of any of his claims, lets see it and put this whole issue to rest........PLEASE!!!"

 With his usage of the word ANY in that statement, I felt he meant in every statement he made above. So I felt a few of his statements were questionable because of that.

 I am trying my best to follow what both Dr.Al and you ask of me, but I do ask for some fairness with this because at times I feel there are double standards, even if it is not intended by anyone.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 06, 2009, 07:08:38 pm
It's not a double standard.  The problem lies in that anyone that attended the Sundance or has legimate information concerning the requested information are not willing to come forward.  So you have 2 groups, supporters and non-supporters neither of which have any answers at this time.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on March 07, 2009, 12:30:36 am
Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 
That may be the only three questions you wish to be addressed here but there are many others.

But then Mike isn't the only one here who wishes to manipulate the subject, is he?

The relevance of the questions about Carnes making pleas for financial assistance with false claims,then refusing to repay his debt when agreed, claiming titles he can not prove, as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty and integrity and whether he uses Native Spirituality to victimize people for personal financial gain.

With the very real possibility of more people being taken advantage of by this man, why limit any questions?

I totally understand the need to stay on topic and agree, but this subject has many issues related to it.

Even Mike calling into question my own integrity has a bearing on addressing this fairly since I am one of the ones making claims.

He knows the answers to his questions and has his own reasons for answering them.....to discredit me, the accuser.

He knows that hearing stories of my Tsalagi Ancestry is one of my earliest childhood memories.
He knows the two or three year ago claim he is trying to make is in relation to other Native Ancestry I have but only recently learned of.

He knows I am not enrolled, but so what, I'm not claiming to be a Spiritual leader either.

He knows what I look like and I know what he does.....anyone wish to compare the two?

Now, this thread concerns Ben.

I posted another for questions concerning me, perhaps he should direct those questions there.

If anyone has personal questions for me, feel free to PM me with them as well as why they think its important to know and we can address that without further interruption of this thread with my info.

Why wont Ben answer questions if he is on the up and up?

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 07, 2009, 12:56:59 am


The relevance of the questions about Carnes making pleas for financial assistance with false claims,then refusing to repay his debt when agreed, claiming titles he can not prove, as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty and integrity and whether he uses Native Spirituality to victimize people for personal financial gain.


    Can you provide some concrete evidence, files, or the like about donations and how used, personal financial gain, how used ect. that do not involve personal debts between you and he?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 07, 2009, 02:24:28 am


  In an earlier thread post today Federica said the following

" It's not a double standard.  The problem lies in that anyone that attended the Sundance or has legimate information concerning the requested information are not willing to come forward.  So you have 2 groups, supporters and non-supporters neither of which have any answers at this time."

 So in that statement all can see that she feels that neither of us have any answers at this time. So I am not doing any more or any less then anyone else when I post in this forum.

 I do admit I have been warned by both Federica and Dr.Al to remain under certain guidelines and rules of this site. Those mainly being that I will not flame, say things that seem libelous, or make claims that I can't provide proof of.

 Since then I have, and will continue do my best to not willfully commit any such acts on this site. I do like being a member of this site, and feel that I can best learn from it, and be a contributing member.

  So that in mind, I think Mr.Walks violated those same guidelines that I am now doing my best to follow when he stated the following things.

 "But then Mike isn't the only one here who wishes to manipulate the subject, is he?"


  I am not here to manipulate anything, and all I did today was make a statement and asked some questions. Same as Mr.Walks, and I don't feel that I did them disrespectfully. I did do them with a point in mind.

 The other statement by Mr.Walks made that I feel is nothing more then a personal attack is  when he said

 "He knows what I look like and I know what he does.....anyone wish to compare the two?


 First and foremost his appearance really wasn't the issue I was getting at in my questions to him, and I have in fact explained to one of the moderators today that neither enrollment status, lack of it, or BQ is an issue with me. So when I raised those questions it was not because of those issues at all.

 As for what I do? I have already stated that I am no angel, and that I do flame on other boards and use profanity. That of course has nothing to do with the topic since it really doesn't have any relevance to this issue.

 I do use a lot of my time online doing very good things, but of course that is not going to be mentioned by Mr.Walks.


 As for the statements about me "knowing about hearing childhood stories from when Walks was a child." I honestly don't know what he is talking about as he and I have never been that close. All I have ever known about him in regards to this was that he says he is Cherokee, and a few of his friends said he was as well. It was later on when I heard about the other things he such as no proof of ancestry etc.

 I would also like to state that I know nothing about him ever saying he was of more then one tribe when he states

"He knows the two or three year ago claim he is trying to make is in relation to other Native Ancestry I have but only recently learned of."

 In reality what I have been told was that while he was staying with the Carnes, it was mentioned to him that he might be from a couple other tribes since they once lived in the area his family is from, or something to that effect. I don't know the exacts of that conversation, but I do know his claim here to knowing about this matter of two or three years is a false one.

 I can provide evidence in his own words that he barely started saying this where I could see it on Sep 8, 2008 in which in his own words he said he "learned a year ago". This year ago that he speaks of, I do believe might fall in about the same time frame as when he was still associating with the Carnes family.


 In his most recent post in which he references me he once again states in regards to Mr.Carnes

  "as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty "

 I look at this statement like I would in hearing the arguments of a defense attorney and a prosecutor when they question witnesses. Both of which will ask questions to gauge the credibility of a particular witness and their motives in making certain statements while on the stand.

 Since Mr.Walks thinks this issue of enrollment is pertinent to the issue at hand, I will have to agree with him.

 All that in mind it should be stated that anyone who see's Mr.Carnes can tell he is undeniably Native. Being that I am a Choctaw person myself I do recognize a Choctaw person when I see one. In fact when speaking to the person from Choctaw Nation enrollment department today about what is going on with NAPFS, I do remember telling her how Mr.Carnes looks a lot like my uncle who was enrolled and was himself 3/4's Choctaw by blood.

 Earlier I mentioned that Mr. Walks is not enrolled as he has now admitted, and questioned him on if he should be able to claim he is Cherokee or not because of his lack of enrollment and proof.
 
 As it can now be clearly seen, Mr.Walks did come back here and appears to still be calling himself a Cherokee, and is now even claiming to possibly be of more then one additional tribe.

 So if he can still call himself Cherokee despite his lack of enrollment or proof of ancestry, then why is he making an issue out of the possible non enrollment of a Ben Carnes; who anyone on this board would know without doubt is a Choctaw man simply by looking at him?

 So the questions I asked Mr.Walks earlier were not to belittle him or mock him based on non enrollment, BQ or what he looks like or doesn't look like.

 My point was that I felt him questioning Mr.Carnes on it was questionable, and this is because Mr.Walks is not enrolled himself, and yet seems to even now be making enrollment questions as a way to further attack the credibility of Mr.Carnes.

 How can a man not enrolled himself and probably can't be, even think that they could use such a question as a way to judge a person who is clearly Indian, and not be questioned called on it?

 I hope anyone that reads this including the moderators see and understand how this is a pertinent question by me in regards to this issue.

 

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on March 07, 2009, 02:51:37 am
Ok Mike, I am going to type Real slow.

This issue of whether Ben is enrolled or not wasn't my point.

The point is he makes many claims that he can't or wont show proof of, which may or may not lead to proof of dishonesty.

It just happens that enrollment status was one of the things he claims, it could have just as easy have been any other claim he made.

If someone could ascertain whether this claim is true or false it would help prove his integrity or lack there of.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 07, 2009, 02:56:34 am
I can't stand to see this thread go on another 10 pages while you all argue about which of yous has the most annoying personality ...

So I am going to post this, though I really don't know that it amounts to much ....

I don't know if anyone would consider recieving funding for a Sundance is a problem . It is a bit odd ben is reffered to as the Chief of the Choctaws, but  I am thinking it is probably just someone was mixed up when they typed this and it's nothing to do with Ben. It's pretty obviouse he is not the Chief of the Choctaw Nation... and doesn't usually claim to be ...


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PYEoPpDRSXEJ:www.pym-indiancommittee.com/reports/200
5-2006.pdf+%22ben+carnes%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=157&gl=us (http://ttp://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PYEoPpDRSXEJ:www.pym-indiancommittee.com/reports/200
5-2006.pdf+%22ben+carnes%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=157&gl=us)

Quote
PYM INDIAN COMMITTEE REPORT – FY July 2005-June 2006
The Indian Committee is dedicated to the support and funding of Native American Initiatives that develop leadership and self-sufficiency, and preserve cultural heritage.

Quote
A funding request submitted by Maria Barrera, Indian Ministry Outreach Chaplain with “With-In With-Out the Circle Inc.,” was approved to assist basic needs of Native Americans participating in the Eagle Mountain Sundance, July 9 to 16, 2006, in Gardner, Colorado. “Ben Carnes,” Chief of the Choctaw Nation and the Sundance Chief, will administer the funds

I'm not sure what Native community, or specific Elders Ben Carnes is connected to , but he does seem to have some sort of a connection with Billy Tayac  and Tomas Goodbear... Maybe it is just a passing aquaintence and I don't like to read too much into that.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1032.msg12982#msg12982

Ponshe Humma
Quote
Hi,
I know the Tayak family personally

Billy Tayac has been struggling to have the Piscataway Indian Nation recognized

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piscataway_Indians

Quote
The Piscataway Indian Nation is a non-state, non-federally recognized Native American tribal nation,

Whether or not this is actually a tribe or PODIAs or even non native people of mixed white and african blood is the subject of a lot of debate.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070316110836/http://hal.lamar.edu/~BROWNTF/PISCATAWAY.HTML

Quote
Ethnic Identity Movements and the Legal Process: The Piscataway Revival

I can see where some parts of this article above ( edited to add , by Thomas Brown ) that comment on peoples personal lives were not necessary to the broader discussion and I can see where the Tayac family might be offended ...

http://www.eskimo.com/~lcsims/tayacfraud.htm

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/rebuttal.htm

The Picataway Nation's rebuttal of the information in the above links

and then there is this

http://www.somdnews.com/stories/082907/indylet183859_32113.shtml

Quote
The recognition advisory committee voted unanimously to recommend state recognition of the Piscataway Indian Nation, based on sound evidence and proper anthropological, genealogical, linguistic and ethnohistorical reasoning.

Reading through all this the only thing that is clear is there is some controvery ...

Reading this article below with no background is a little wierd. It is titled Urgent COINTELPRO Provocateur ALERT, and my first impression was it sounded like some kind of soap opera involving peoples love lives, a website and some allegedly "Cointelpro-like propaganda".

Ben Carnes is mentioned though it's hard to tell what his involvement is.

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/alert.htm

Quote
For the last three decades, whenever a major native incident has occurred, the Tayac family has worked diligently with the native people here in Washington, DC, and has coordinated same day support action in Central America, South America, Canada, and Europe. Wounded Knee, Ganienkeh, the Salvadorian Massacres, Oka, Big Mountain, and Gustafsen Lake are a few examples of the Tayac family dedication to the Native struggle.

(con...)
Quote
Billy Tayac had requested the access codes for the LISN web site on many occasions from Menier and his wife, because they were not keeping the LISN site updated. Menier told another LISN member, Ben Carnes, that he would give Billy the codes. After many emails and phone calls, Menier finally telephoned the Tayacs and informed them that the LISN site had been taken down. Upon investigation, it was discovered that Menier and his wife and ordered the LISN site down.

Quote
The alliance between Menier, his wife, Janet Cavallo and Thomas Brown has intensified recently with the addition of Linda Lemonde AKA Ishgodda of NativeNews. Lemonde lives in Michigan and is an unrecognized non-enrolled Wyandot Indian. Due to her friendship with Menier's wife, she has joined the Cointelpro-type conspiracy, unwittingly or knowingly, and posted links to the Brown's anti-Tayac material found on the Internet. She has been previously suspected of disseminating misinformation and Cointelpro-like propaganda on Native people. Thomas Brown, the author of the smear paper, typifies the Cointelpro actions of earlier years. He has neither credibility nor credentials, and cites other racist authors, including himself.

These are non-Indians trying to define who is an Indian. The Tayac family has put their lives on the line many times with the Native struggles in this hemisphere. Isn't it time that native people define themselves, and not be defined by outsiders who disseminate lies and distortions?

I can appreciate that if someone who is a PODIA comes from a family that maintained a relationship with the Native community and has dedicates their life to standing up for NDN people , and they are accepted as an NDN by other Native people, as long as they aren't lying about who they are, that persons personal identity should not be open to dispute. But I'm not sure being an individual with strong ties to the Pan NDN Native community translates into the right to claim a tribal identity or Nationhood.     

What I really don't like is the way these people seem to accuse anyone who questions the legitimacy of their tribe , based on what appear to be facts and historical evidence , as being part of some cointelpro manouver .

Sorry but I find that really offensive. If the facts are wrong refute that, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them involved in cointelpro ...

The LISN web site would be connected to this - which is mentioned in the Picatawaty rebuttal of Browns article ...

Quote
The League of Indigenous Sovereign Nations (LISN) is an organization comprised of Native nations within this hemisphere and many Native individuals. LISN has met with United Nations representatives, as well as, ambassadors from Canada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Columbia on Native human rights issues that have occurred inside these countries. LISN has become the flash point for these international and domestic concerns. There are over 40 million Natives within the western hemisphere that do not have a voice in mankind. However, there are U.N. member countries that have only 50,000 people that do have a voice and a vote within the U.N. There have been many hemispheric Native conferences on this same issue.

I guess this letter from Tomas Eaglebear which is published on the PIN website is also refering to this dispute and mentions Ben Carnes

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/tomas.htm

Letter from Tomas EagleBear
 (begins ....)
Quote
When I came out to Sundance last year, Mat discussed with me what was going on with him and Jason. There was going to be a meeting with the Chief and Mark and Sugar, so Mat asked Ben Carnes and I, if we would be there to bear witness on what was said and done. We agreed to go with him.

(con....)

Quote
I have been involved with the Sundance since its beginning. I hope that my word is helpful in resolving the current conflict. Our prayers, from our Church Community are with you.

For our Earth Mother, I remain,

Tomas EagleBear

I'm not sure if this is Billy Tayac's Sundance of Ben Carnes

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/rebuttal.htm
Quote
Thomas Eagle Bear is an Apache Indian that was adopted into my family, but is not an enrolled Piscataway

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1604.msg10110#msg10110

Quote
Tomas is the elder of the Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. (con...)
Quote
Aztlan is a community of people that Thomas inspired over twenty years ago and in many ways leads, living the traditions and ways their people have held onto. The members of the community are mainly descendants of the Mimbreno Apache and the Mexican Indian people..
..

It seems this group connected to Billy Tayac is not really following anything truely traditional but is just mixing and matching pieces of various traditons.

From the rebuttal to Browns article on the PIN website
Quote
Today many Native people practice the sacred Sun Dance in Canada and the U.S. It is not a Plains Indian rite, but is meant for all Indians. It is practiced by Navajos in Arizona; Crees, Mohawks, Ojibwa, Anishinabe in Canada and the U.S. Many South and Central American Natives travel to the U.S. to participate. However, we also practice the Awakening of Mother Earth, Green Corn, Feast of the Dead and Mid-Winter ceremonies, and have name giving, marriages and burial rites. Yet, these individuals who have no Native culture or spirituality criticize us. They are envious and are spiritually and culturally barren.

Like the Tayak family above , I saw where Ben also got into suggesting if anyone was critical of him  they might be infiltrators or informants ..... again I don't agree with that ....

Ben did this when he was criticized by Kenny Frost...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=431484864

Some of what Ben Carnes in relation to the criticism from Kenny Frost where Mr Frost expressed concerns about self appointed spiritual leaders.

Quote
I've seen this type of behavior from others for years and I've always hoped that people would grow and rise above. Just consider the case of Anna Mae, people spreading rumors created by the FBI got her murdered. If people don't have the facts, then they are irresponsible for spreading information that could be harmful and even considered libelous.

All we can do is keep positive in how we interact with others and in how we live. Who knows how many people we can infect with a smile. Ben

but then he goes on to say ...

Quote
We have much to do in de-colonizing ourselves so that we can remove ourselves from being pawns of the divide and conquer strategy. We just have to watch for the provocateurs, infiltrators, and informants who come into our circles like a parasite to create a bitter infection among our relationships. Thank you. Ben

I can understand why Ben was a bit offended , as part of what Kenny Frost accused him of seems to be based on a misunderstanding - it sounds like Mr Frost thought Ben Carnes went to the Gathering of One to work with that offensive woman with the stolen blood stained drum , when he actually went to tell her how offensive her activities were.

But going off on a paranoid rant suggesting traditional people who are uncomfortable with what you are doing somehow have something to do with being infiltrators and informants does not seem healthy.

Especially when what you are doing may be in violation of a protection of ceremonies decree and you know what you are doing may be offensive to some strongly traditional NDN people .

Reply #20 on: April 05, 2008, of this thread

Ben Carnes   

Quote
As for Looking Horse's statement, I remember the protection of ceremonies statement. I also remember the statements by Chief Leonard Crow Dog, Chief Reggie Little Brave, and others who did not agree with the "Protection of Ceremonies" statement. I  also remember being asked by many other practitioners of the Sun Dance what I thought. I expressed that until the Lakota people came to a consensus, we should continue our prayers to the Creator. I have made a commitment to this way of life and no man has the right to stand between the Creator and myself.


I guess he shouldn't be surprised or take it personally when some people have concerns.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 07, 2009, 03:01:11 am
This is what I mean by sidetrack.  Supporters vs. non-supporters. The forum deal mostly with exploitation of some type, financial, spiritual and the and even sexual.  You have to present facts.  Personal issues have to be dealt with on your own.  If you lend someone money, and are not repayed, you have avenues you can pursue.  It's up to the individual to do this.  If someone says something you object to and it's not just an argument to be arguing with that individual, okay.  But it always get personal and this is not the place for it.  If you want to argue, PM each other.  
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on March 07, 2009, 05:03:51 pm
I have never heard Ben or anyone from our Choctaw communities refer to him as Choctaw Chief.  Ever.  The person who wrote that was mistaken.  Although, many decide for themselves who they consider to be a leader of their people, regardless of who is appointed to our tribal council.

Also, when Ben wrote that statement during the time Kenny came in and made remarks off of here say, it was not traditionals Ben was asking people to be cautious of, it was those who are podia or not native at all trying to get "in" with the native communities and then turning around and causing trouble.  These comments were based on the actions of the likes of Walks.  Not traditionals that may have questions.  Or anyone who may have questions or concerns.

The reason you are not getting your answers is because you are not entitled to them.  No one has to answer to a single person on this board.  The ones that they need to answer to are being answered to.  Ben is a very busy man.  And even so, I know that he has always made a point to speak with someone who comes to him in a good way to answer their questions.  Maybe if you had just called him and asked instead of believing that you are entitled to force him here to answer you...you all would have had your answers a long time ago.  It's not like the man is hard to get a hold of. 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 07, 2009, 05:32:37 pm
I think it's far more complicated and if people can get past the personal issues it may be eventually addressed.  MP put up a good post on how complicated it can be, plus there is more.  If I am not mistaken there was a time when  when some AIM warriors were made "Sundance Chiefs".  Seems like Henry Crow Dog and Frank Fools Crow felt it the right thing to do.  Others may have a better history of this than I do.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Cetan on March 07, 2009, 05:51:48 pm
Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 
Apparantly Kenny Frost has a concern that the Sundance is being held on Ute land without their permission. However, and I am neither supporting ot condemming what is done and do not even want to bring up the issue of off reservation ceremonies, the land where this Sundance occurs may be traditional Ute land but it is not on any of the Ute reservations. Historically all of this Turtle Island is Native land so everything is done on Native land.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on March 07, 2009, 11:46:54 pm
No one has to answer to a single person on this board.  The ones that they need to answer to are being answered to.  Ben is a very busy man....if you had just called him and asked instead of believing that you are entitled to force him here to answer you...

Here you are deliberately lying and distorting a number of things.

We never asked him to "answer to us." We asked questions, he refuses to answer anyone.

Carnes has not answered to the Ute elders. He even said he didn't find it important enough to take time to do. He gave it a brief thought, then dismissed it.

Carnes has more than enough time to email Frederica to (get this) just to say he won't answer questions.

And no is "forcing" him to do anything. We've never asked him to come here. In fact all we've done is asked anyone at EMC to answer questions.

Let me take this time to ask you again, MD, the question you avoided answering before. What's your stake in this? Why devote so much time to this? Why esp, when you make yourself and Carnes and EMC all look bad when you get caught in such obvious lies and distortion?

What's truly striking to me is that you have a mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers who seemingly don't care that Carnes may or may not actually be the Sundance leader he claims to be.

Even moke striking is the contempt for Ute wishes Carnes, and others show. Apparently they have time (a lot of time) to say repeatedly the Ute concerns don't matter or they don't have time for them, but no time to actually talk to Ute elders.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on March 08, 2009, 02:03:28 am
not lying, just stating how I see it.  I call it trying to force someone to answer to you all [Insults and lies] you call it inquiring while trying to [More lies] find incriminating evidence [Yet more lies].  Oh yes, and keeping it going and going and going without proof.  Call it whatever [Insults] [More insults and personal attacks]  Whether it be the Carnes or those from the EMC.  Why should anyone answer to [Insults and lies]?  This was not brought up in a good way.  It was created by [Personal attacks and childish innuendos].  As far as I am concerned, it's not necessary for any of them to answer any person here.

My stake in this?  The truth.  I know the truth.  I know the very ugly details of why [More childish insults and innuendos and sidetracks].  I know that Ben is Choctaw and a Sundance chief.  I haven't heard anyone say they didn't care about what the Utes think.  Actually, when will any Utes besides Kenny even show interest in this at all?  I think you are confused by the fact that some say they don't like Kenny.  I surely don't.

I understand that you are trying to stop people from exploiting and have good intentions however, you are not going after a man who is "outside" the native communities.  he is very much inside them and everywhere.  He never has hid from anyone and he is not now.  Put up a good fight and fight those exploiters, but I hope you can handle the toes you mistakenly step on here and there.  [Childish insults]

[Eight childish insults in row.]

good day.

[Al's note- Not a single question answered, instead lots of venom and pettiness. All of that was removed, as any other will be.]
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 08, 2009, 02:47:02 am
mamaduck
Quote
My stake in this?  The truth.  I know the truth.

Mamaduck
Quote
Also, when Ben wrote that statement during the time Kenny came in and made remarks off of here say, it was not traditionals Ben was asking people to be cautious of, it was those who are podia or not native at all trying to get "in" with the native communities and then turning around and causing trouble.  These comments were based on the actions of the likes of Walks.  Not traditionals that may have questions.  Or anyone who may have questions or concerns.

Hi mama duck

This isn't true. Bens comments were in response to the topic of Kenny Frosts concerns. Nothing was said about non natives and PODIAs , and that is not what was being discussed.

mamaduck
Quote
The reason you are not getting your answers is because you are not entitled to them.   

I guess different people may see this differently , but Ben Carnes does publicly state that he is a Sundance Chief . If he is entiled to do that it seems to me the general public is entitled to ask "How so ?"

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=431484864
( source #1 )
Ben Carnes
Quote
Another statement he has made is in regards to a Sun Dance I conduct in Colorado. And please remember, he brought it up in a bulletin so that is how people who didn't know me will now know what I do. I've only told and invited certain people that I have felt compelled to invite.

This isn't entirely true. It isn't just because Kenny Frost brought this up in a bulliten , that people who don't know Ben , will know what he does. It is published other places on the internet.


http://censored-news.blogspot.com/2008/01/choctaw-ben-carnes-border-treaties.html (source # 2 )
This says it was written by Ben Carnes
Quote
About the author
Ben Carnes is from the Choctaw Nation, a long time activist, prisoner’s rights advocate, and a Sun Dance Chief. He currently resides in Southern Colorado. He can be reached through the website at http://www.eaglecouncil.org/. Or at www.myspace.com/eagle_mountain

This position of being a Spiritual leader does seem to be being linked, with the alternative community he wants to create

Quote
Eagle Mountain – Sacred Sovereign Territory
For more than 25 years it has been my vision to have land where I/we could build a community utilizing alternative forms of energy and have ceremonies and host conferences.
(source #2 censored news blogspot )

Quote
However, the origin of the Eagle Mountain Sun Dance has been a gift from the Creator. Without following the vision he had given me years ago, we wouldn't be in Colorado. When we first began looking for land, we checked on a piece of property. There we made a prayer for the Creator to help us in securing the land if this is where we were suppose live and then place tobacco down. Not too long after, I was told to come and look at another piece of property. The land that I saw was perfect in that we had water and isoloation by being bordered by Bureau of Land Management lands and the sheep mountain.
( source # 1 Ben's response to Kenny Frost)

And Ben does sound like he is soliciting public funding for this project...

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=386568955

 
Quote
Sunday, April 27, 2008
   
European speaking tour in August
Ben Carnes
Quote
The purposes of this tour is to continue to educate and raise awareness of Native issues, promote the goals of Eagle Mountain and to raise funds to help secure the land and build our infrastructure. See our website for more information .

I would also like to have some benefit shows organized there to help raise funds to secure the land, build energy efficient homes and create our own source of power using wind and sun.

For more information on arranging a presentation or benefit in Europe, contact Quetzal Tzab at: tzab.quetzal@gmail.com

Thank you,
Ben Carnes

Quote
Resume of
Ben Carnes (Choctaw Nation)
bencarnes@eaglecouncil.org

(continues... )
Quote
Interests & Goals
He currently resides in Southern Colorado with wife and daughter. His vision is to create a self-sustainable community using alternative sources of energy, producing organic foods. He is writing his autobiography of his involvement in land rights & sovereignty of Native (Canada & US) and Hawaiian people, prisoners' rights, the emerging police state, and a focus on the Indigenous prophesies & spirituality.

Just guessing , but it sounds like it may have been Tayac family who gave Ben the responsibility of leading some of the ceremonies he does ...

http://censored-news.blogspot.com/2008/01/choctaw-ben-carnes-border-treaties.html
Quote
Choctaw Ben Carnes: The border, treaties, prisoner rights and the Ghost Dance
Thoughts of Racism, Politics and Spiritual Sovereignty

Spirituality – A way of life
After completing my parole in 1991, I had been going to several different ceremonies all around the country, and had begun to fulfill a Sun Dance commitment. Although, I did not feel I was ready, Chief Tayac of the Piscataway Indian Nation and his son, Mark, the Sun Dance Chief urged me to go into the prisons as a Spiritual Advisor.

When I went into the prison and ran a sweat for my family there, I have never felt anything more fulfilling.
And more mentioning Ben's connection with the Tayac family

http://freepress.org/departments/display/20/2007/2854.

Quote
Reflections on the passing of our people of AIM
by Ben Carnes
October 15, 2007

(begins...)
Quote
later went to our Sun Dance at Tayac Territory where she came every year.

I'm not saying there is any wrong doing going on here , but if anyone is entitled to claim to be a Spiritual leader and Sundance Chief on the internet, to me it seems fair for the public to be entitled to hear how he was given this responsbility , and by who, and what Elders are involved in providing ongoing support..

If people aren't entitled to make enquiries , how else are people going to be able to avoid supporting people they don't choose to support....

And the only way people can make informed choices is by making inquiries. I don't see why that is offensive .
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on March 08, 2009, 06:42:57 am
Hi mama duck

This isn't true. Bens comments were in response to the topic of Kenny Frosts concerns. Nothing was said about non natives and PODIAs , and that is not what was being discussed.


Kenny Frosts concerns were based on the here say of a man [Innuendo removed] so yes, it all ties in to non natives and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm.  Bens remarks have nothing to do with people who have questions about him.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on March 08, 2009, 07:12:58 am
It's exploitation when people pay you to travel to them to speak?  [Sidetrack removed]  I guarantee, the very little amount that Ben has received for his travel and time...is not making him a rich man.  and he very well could travel and make thousands if he wanted. 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 08, 2009, 08:22:31 am
I'm not saying there is any wrong doing going on here , but if anyone is entitled to claim to be a Spiritual leader and Sundance Chief on the internet, to me it seems fair for the public to be entitled to hear how he was given this responsbility , and by who, and what Elders are involved in providing ongoing support..

If people aren't entitled to make enquiries , how else are people going to be able to avoid supporting people they don't choose to support....

And the only way people can make informed choices is by making inquiries. I don't see why that is offensive .

snipped, because last time i quoted someone's whole post to comment on it, it was apparently frowned upon ..

anyways .. the WHOLE post was good moma p .. it does all tie in together, though it is difficult to discern from all the information available .. i wanted to than you for your posting all this .. with all these links, and people working  together, perhaps we can arive at some truth .. whatever that truth may be .. .. ..
and i agree .. the only way anyone can make informed decisions and choices is by asking questions, making inquiries and doing a lot of research .. .. i do not see how this could be considered offensive ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 08, 2009, 08:46:56 am
again snipping .. for the same reason .. yet i would like to add to the below by Al ..


Carnes has more than enough time to email Frederica to (get this) just to say he won't answer questions.
it would seem quite logical to presume that the carnes have "more than enough time", considering the fact that neither he nor his wife have jobs. They have time to email, message and call others concerning all this in here, so it would seem that they could give some of that time to addressing these issues in here.

What's truly striking to me is that you have a mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers who seemingly don't care that Carnes may or may not actually be the Sundance leader he claims to be.
i feel  that i should address this misconception, i do so from personal knowledge. there is no "mixed group of NDNs and white Nuagers". In the carnes "group", there are a few Hispanics that claim various ndn bloodlines yet none were born and raised NDN .. i have to say here that i actually like, and even respect, some of these Hispanics and merely feel saddened that they are being misguided. As for NDNs, if there are any at all,  it is but one or two. At this last years "sundance" there were two that could actually say that they were NDN, both of whom i do know and do have (or did) respect for. It should be made clear that all of the carnes "ceremonies" including their "sundance are not attended by a "mix" of NDNs and whites, but rather are attended by white nuagers, with perhaps, from time to time, a couple of NDNs.

Even moke striking is the contempt for Ute wishes Carnes, and others show. Apparently they have time (a lot of time) to say repeatedly the Ute concerns don't matter or they don't have time for them, but no time to actually talk to Ute elders.
I agree that this is probably the most damning, their utter lack of concern for the wishes of the Nation whose territory they are in.

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 08, 2009, 09:26:11 am
Frederica asked for some proof of the carnes appealing for financial support, other than mere “personal stories” of such. This is quite lengthy, I apologize for that yet thought it important to post it in it’s entirety.

Bens letter appealing for financial support. This appeal for financial support was originally posted in October of 2007 and was re-posted multiple times in the early months of 2008. This is the appeal to which walks responded with his offer of financial support in the form of a loan to help them out. This appeal was posted all over the internet and sent via email to a great many.
Remember that neither of the carnes are working, they expect others to support them while doing nothing to support themselves. In all fairness, I do know that ben did have a job for a few months last summer, a job that was obtained after this appeal went out and was only held for a few months.
.   
Note: the website given for EMC: http://www.eaglecouncil.org has been removed.

Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council Appeal Letter for Support
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/I_P_I/message/17116

Dear Friends & Relatives:

Last summer, we were several months behind in land payments. With everyone’s help, we were able to raise a little over $5,000.00 to get current. I had thought I would be able to keep up the payments after that, but the company I was working for didn’t hire me on any other projects after the one I was working on had been completed. A few other leads didn’t pan out.  Currently, I have been getting my records together to join the Iron workers union. One of our friends is a foreman at the construction site of the Comanche power plant and said that he would get me hired on. I got all the paperwork to the union hall in Pueblo, and then I was told that I would have to contact the Denver office for an interview. I called the Denver office two days ago, and they have told me they might do interviews in Nov. There are no job prospects for me now.

On the same day, I picked up my mail from the post office and there was a certified letter from our realtors. I called and spoke with them today, and they want me to come in to their office tomorrow and speak with them about giving some of the land back to them. Which is something I find unacceptable.  The place where we have our arbor and the locations of the springs where we have water rights to would more than likely be separated. If we relinquished some of the land, then we may end up with neighbors who have no respect for what we do.

I had planned on sending the attached letter out to everyone when we had some things in place, but it seems critical that I send this letter now. Some of you who receive this appeal may not have had the chance to come and experience what we do and what are visions are for the land. So I would ask you to look a our website, the address is below.  We are in the process of updating it with the help of a friend in Virginia. We are trying to upload an image to cafepress.com so that we could have some products to sell online. The proceeds would not be as much as if we did it ourselves, but it would be a way to start generating funds to have our shirts made by Native owned companies at a greater profit to ourselves.

So I am asking each of you to take a little time to read the attached letter and email or call me about how much you can support or what else you can do. And I will be emailing some of you individually to discuss some thoughts or ideas I have.

Thanks everyone, Ben

-- “Empowering the Peoples’ Vision through a return to our Traditions”
http://www.eaglecouncil.org
============
Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Appeal Letter for Support

October 11th, 2007

Introduction

This email is going out to more than 100 people that I have met and have known and I hope that each of you will take time to read this lengthy letter. We are at a critical point in the development of our organization and we desperately need your help.

This an appeal for any support you can offer. I am planning an aggressive campaign to raise funds through for the Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, our Land Fund and for the Eagle Mountain Sun Dance (next years dates are July 13th – 20th).

We formed the EMSC as a church and filed with the Colorado Secretary of State, and we have a federal Employee Identification Number. The IRS guidelines states that it is not necessary for a church to file for a 501 ( C )(3), but it would be to our advantage to do so. The reason is that not a lot of foundations will fund religious activities, and even less for traditional Native based organizations.

To become a federal non-profit, we would have to come up with $700 or $750.00 since we expect that we will have more than $10,000.00 income. It is $350.00 if we expect less than $10,000.00. There are a number of programs we want to initiate as an organization and you can find those details at our website

http://www.eaglecouncil.org

Along with the fee, we will need to build our infrastructure to not only accommodate our guests for Sun Dance: such as the completion of the kitchen, root cellar water storage & lines, additional composting outhouses, and a roundhouse. We also need to get the grader repaired, obtain a backhoe & dump truck, diesel engine vehicles, and a bio-diesel plant. We have also had problems with cattle coming onto our property since we do not have a fence that completely surrounds the property. Also, an important need is to have a home, a parsonage if you will, that I can live in on the land so that we can be there to take care of things. We had an opportunity to acquire seven mobile homes, but we had no money to pay $1200.00 per trailer to move them here. So we didn’t get them. In a brief conversation with the county building inspector, he wouldn’t have allowed it.

Another project is setting up a summer youth camp. We’d like to have Tipi’s to house the youth, and teach them necessary survival skills to boost their self-esteem. At times we can have the youth & Elders gathering for passing on stories & traditions. There are a number of youth in the custody of the state who could benefit, but we don’t have the facilities or certified counselors to work with them.

There will have to be a budget written up on the programs and activities that we set up as a priority and then follow down in that order. I had hoped that some of our dancers would be willing to take a program and develop it, but most need training in program management and skills in working within a non-profit organization. That is part of the growing pains for grassroots movements in learning how build a successful organization.

The Land Fund

Ever since the early 1980’s, I have envisioned a place where we could be ourselves and where people can come and get their life in order. I didn’t see it as a program based upon accredited modalities of treatment; I saw it as a way of life based upon traditional philosophies and values. I carried this vision through all the years I traveled around the world, learning and experiencing how other people lived and seen the problems they have had to cope with. Those experiences help to sharpen my vision.

Then it seemed like one day everything fell into place through the prayer my wife and I offered a prayer to find a place to make this vision a reality. We found it in southern Colorado. It is 160 acres of land with rights to two springs. It is bordered on two sides by BLM land; another side is steep hilly land that we don’t expect anyone will be building on it. It is beautiful land and has what it needs to sustain a community. I also know that this is where the Creator has brought us. There have been so many wonderful things that have happened to affirm this belief.

The land was sold to us for $1,000.00 per acre. At this time, we owe a remaining balance of $72,056.00 out of $160,000.00. Currently, we owe $2,068.14, in back payments. Next month we will owe an additional $689.38. We started making payments in 2002, so my family and friends have put in $87,944.00 to date.

I have always intended to pay off this land and then place it into a trust so that the land would never be in danger of being sold. We want this land to be held forever for our families and people. We don’t want anyone to fight over who owns what or to exploit the land of its natural resources for profit.

With the possibility of foreclosure beginning in the next few weeks, we need your help to get the land payments current. We also need your help in getting this land paid off so that we don’t have to deal with this matter again. I have outlined some other ideas in this letter to make that happen, but we need everyone to pitch in where they can. One of my brothers had said it is a shame you have to pay for it. I agree in the fact that as Native people we have been homeless in our homelands. We have a small bit of land now and we don’t want to lose it. If you can help with this urgent need, please call or contact me tonight or in the AM. If enough of you can let me know you have a check in the mail or arrange a transaction, we can assure our realtors that we do have the money coming in and there is no need for foreclosure proceedings to start.

If we lose this land, we lose our Sun Dance and the visions we have shared for the future. This is something that cannot happen.

Fundraising

Another important needs here is to secure the fees to file an application with the IRS for non-profit status, along with the land fund. Preparing and completing the application is simple enough, and once we can submit the application for tax-exempt status, we will receive a letter from the IRS that indicates our application is pending and then we can submit proposals for funding.

There are many ways to raise funds, and I am sure that there are a number of resources on the Internet and the public library to give you ideas. Two fundraising activities are benefit concerts and public speaking. There are some performers who have said they be happy to perform if I had something set up, and I have many other friends who are performers across the country whom I can speak to about assisting us.

 I have my credentials to speak publicly and have done so in the past in the past 20 years. I have spoken on Native issues across the US, Canada, Columbia S.A. and in Europe. We are currently working on creating a speakers bureau. We have a few who have agreed to speak for us. When we have a list of the speakers and résumé’s with photo’s, we’ll set up the page on our website. Then we would ask you to forward this information to universities, organizations and church groups.

There are even simple things you can do such as having a benefit yard sale and publicizing it in your area. Other things that could be done is to have arts & crafts items donated for raffles in events such as pow-wows or other events where there will be gathering of people.

In order to have products immediately, such as, t-shirts, coffee cups, and caps, etc., to raise funds, we are setting up an online store at www.cafepress.com/eaglecouncil. This should, over time, assist us in purchasing our own equipment (button-maker) and paying Native owned business’s to make items with our logo to sell at fund raising events. To make this successful, everyone can encourage your friends and family to visit our website and to support us by making a purchase at our online store.

Some of you who have the connections could host a dinner and invite celebrities or other individuals who are interested in donating to a worthy cause. We all know there are several who regularly contribute and that there are many organizations like us who approach them constantly for support. So if you know people like that and can interest them in coming to a dinner with one of our people as a speaker, I am sure it could be a successful event.
Maybe some of you know people in the casino industry. See if you can get them interested in what we are doing and making a personal introduction. We could secure a spot for a benefit show, or       the casino may donate enough to address our needs.

A Prophecy Gathering

If we can get our infrastructure set up to accommodate up to 2000 people, I really need to host a gathering of spiritual leaders who knows the prophecies of their people to share with each other and us. It is something that has not been done on a hemispheric level. From all that I have gathered, most if not all the prophecies have been completed. The Mayan Calendar ends in 2012 and its significance on a spiritual level is connected with other Native prophecies. There is something very important for us to learn from such a gathering.

The expense in providing travel to these people from across the Western Hemisphere will be enormous. Some of the people we will need to hear from may not be allowed into the US, so we may need to travel to other places and hold a field hearing to bring them all together. That is besides providing food, sanitation and water, including housing that many people.

The result from such a gathering is to issue a statement to other world religious leaders explaining what direction our spirituality must take. As Native people who have a responsibility to the Earth, we have a duty to make this statement and live it.

This is a vision that has building within me for more than half of my life. And only in the past five years did so many goals happen in a rush. We have the land where ceremonies can take place, we have water and it is where we can build a self-sustaining community. I am not one who generally asks for help, but we need it now. There is so much to do in the next five years.

How You Can Help

This is where each of you comes in. You are organizers, shakers & movers, and artists of all kinds. Some of you are homemakers, students/teachers or business people. Who ever you are you have some type of skills or experiences that can help us to move forward.

Every person can make some kind of difference, you just need to believe in what you are doing and most importantly, believe in yourselves. I’ve seen it happen with people who never believed they could ever make a difference. I am going to ask each of you to take a few days to think this over before you decide whether or not you can make a commitment to help.

You can make an assessment of what you can do, write them out and let me know within a few days. We can then see where all of our support is going to come from, and we can bring you all together so that you can combine your resources. Then we can work together to set up a calendar of events from say for example, April/May to Sept., with the exception of the month of July for our ceremonies. And with November being Native American Heritage month, get bookings for school/universities for speakers.

If anyone wants to make a financial contribution to help with the Land Fund and IRS filing fees, make your check out to “Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council”, P.O. Box 88, Gardner, CO. 81040. Any funds over and above the filing fees will be applied to where needs are not being met.

If you have questions, please feel free to write or call me (719) 746-0119. If the phone is busy or I don’t answer, leave me a message and what number to call you back at. I will return your call. Don’t anyone think any of you aren’t important enough to help in some way; I’ve contacted you because I know you are and that you can do something. Think of where we would be if the leaders we have today didn’t think they could do anything.

I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and considering what you can do. I hope to hear from you soon.

In the Spirit of Peace,

Ben Carnes,
Sun Dance Chief
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on March 08, 2009, 09:33:09 am
keeping it going and going and going without proof. 

That has to be the most bizarre thing I've heard in awhile. It's even more bizarre than the defender of Johnson/TBE/Mohammed on the other thread.

This thread would have been incredibly short and forgotten long ago if someone at EMC had just said "Carnes was made a sundance leader by XYZ." That, and explained the Nuage hippie nurse selling healing at their dances.

Instead MD, Rattlebone, Crow and others have dragged it out over, in large part, their personal issue with some of Carnes's critics.

Good going, EMC and supporters. You sure know how to make everyone think Carnes has something to hide.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 08, 2009, 09:36:19 am
(at the risk of being told that i am "spamming" .. there is more that i wish to post. I am sorry yet i am not always able to be online everyday and thus have to post when i can do so)

It was brought to my attention  that the carnes are claiming to have the full support of Bernard Red Cherries.  Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. to address this i am posting the following statement from Bernard that was sent out in September 2008.


Statement of Bernard Red Cherries
Northern Cheyenne
Chief Headsman Northern Cheyenne Elk Society

I, Bernard Red Cherries, Denounce the activities of Ben Carnes, his family, and his organization, “Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council”. I am uncompromising when it comes to defending traditional cultures and the protection of ceremonies. I am convinced that Ben Carnes is exploiting our Indian peoples, our cultures and our ceremonies for his own personal gain.

In speaking by telephone with the Carnes, especially my conversations with Cat, I had some very serious doubts about them and everything that they were doing. After meeting Carnes and his wife at that new age event in Montana, I was absolutely convinced, based on what I saw, heard and learned by speaking with the Carnes themselves, that their motivation in everything that they do, was purely for money and self promotion of themselves and their organization. I went to that event only because the Carnes told me that they intended to use that opportunity to speak out against exploitation and asked for my help. I did speak out against the exploitation of our Indian peoples, our ceremonies, our traditions and our cultures. All I heard from them was self promotion . Instead of speaking out against these exploiters, they embraced those new age people and made friends with them in order to get donations for their activities and their plans for a trip to Europe.

Following the event I cut off all communication with the Carnes. I will not associate with an exploiter of our cultures, traditions and ceremonies. The Carnes actions are contrary to the teachings of all tribal ways.

Ben Carnes is no spiritual leader of our Indian people. If he was going to stand up for Indian rights he should have done it in solidarity with Indian people, but he does not. Everything that the Carnes have done is a wrong against our Indian People. Carnes does nothing for our Indian people, all that he does, is done for white people and his own personal monetary gain.

We must stand together to seek justice as Indian people to make sure that our Sacred ways are preserved in their entirety for all our future generations. We must denounce any who would exploit our Sacred ways. Only those with the correct knowledge of our traditions, and the ceremonial rights can lead our sacred ceremonies, only those who speak the language of their nations and who follow their own Nations sacred ways of life.

Bernard Red Cherries
Northern Cheyenne
September 2008
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 08, 2009, 10:54:47 pm
Kenny Frosts concerns were based on the here say of a man [Innuendo removed] so yes, it all ties in to non natives and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm.  Bens remarks have nothing to do with people who have questions about him.

i am NOT addressing MD .. no point ..i am ONLY addressing yet another lie of hers .. actually i feel sorry for yvette's total ignorance in this issue .. the carnes are merely "internet friends" of hers, and recent ones at that .. she does not KNOW them at all, that much is quite obvious .. ..

but .. for all others .. FYI, the Ute Nation and Kenny Frost's "concerns" about the carnes began LONG before "the man in question" even knew who the carnes or Kenny were! .. Kenny's "concerns" were NOT based on the "hear say of "a man"! .. .. that man was not even aware of any of those concerns until well after the fact .. the Ute Nation and Kenny Frost have had these concerns about the carnes for several years now .. he carnes NEVER contacted anyone in the Ute Nation to ask permission etc, and they refused all contact with Kenny Frost .. .. just like now, they will NOT answer ANY questions .. .. they merely send in their "dawgs" to create diversion etc .. .. ..

i have to agree though, in that this "concern" about the carnes ALL does tie into non-ndn's and PODIAS who are infiltrating and causing harm .. ben is running a "sundance", "inipi" and other ceremonies FOR non-ndn's and PODIAS .. these people are being ALLOWED by the carnes to infiltrate our Sacred ceremonies and are causing harm to our peoples .. .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: CROW on March 09, 2009, 03:22:18 am
keeping it going and going and going without proof. 

That has to be the most bizarre thing I've heard in awhile. It's even more bizarre than the defender of Johnson/TBE/Mohammed on the other thread.

This thread would have been incredibly short and forgotten long ago if someone at EMC had just said "Carnes was made a sundance leader by XYZ." That, and explained the Nuage hippie nurse selling healing at their dances.

Instead MD, Rattlebone, Crow and others have dragged it out over, in large part, their personal issue with some of Carnes's critics.

Good going, EMC and supporters. You sure know how to make everyone think Carnes has something to hide.

I made two post, yeah I really kept it going. I asked a question about someone. Come to find out you were the fraud I was questioning about I believe. Someone got offended I questioned their leader and tried to make it a thing. Its honestly nothing to whine about.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 09, 2009, 04:08:56 am


 and PODIAS .. these people are being ALLOWED by the carnes to infiltrate our Sacred ceremonies and are causing harm to our peoples .. .. ..




   I do believe that both Walks and yourself are far less then 1/4 native by blood. As a matter of fact as already pointed out, and acknowledged by Walks himself; he is not enrolled, and probably has no actual proof that he is native whatsoever.

  It is my understanding that you claim to be Cherokee, but grew up in New Mexico or something like that.

 So since this is a point you feel is valid here in this investigation of Mr. Carnes, how do you justify yourself claiming to be Native and being involved in any ceremony?

  I have seen pictures of both yourself and Walks at the Carnes residence, and of course Walks looks white and to date has no proof of his claims to being Indian other then some family story.

 So how was Walks being there not a problem for you then, as it is now considering he is very much one of these PODIA people you speak of?

  If Walks does not fall into this PODIA category, then I would like to hear an explanation of how he does not fall into this category, and what your definition of a PODIA since you are making this aspect of the Carnes's behavior an issue.

  I do not view this as sidetracking on my part since it is a valid statement that you have presented that should be asked of you "the accuser" as well since I do know about both Walks and yourself.

 

 


 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 04:16:46 am
Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 09, 2009, 04:24:31 am
Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.


  Well when a person uses him allowing so called "PODIA" people in the EMC as part of the research/evidence to show he is bad, shouldn't it be pointed out that the person making that accusation themselves is a more then likely a PODIA themselves?

 That is like an exploiter calling another person one IMO.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 04:37:48 am
Take it to MY Space or PM. 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 09, 2009, 04:41:48 am
Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 09, 2009, 04:51:58 am
Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community to give then support, i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

  I understand what you are saying and agree with you here.

 If others would take the time to explain things just a little as you have above then I would not have the objections I do to things.

 I have seen a lot of blanket statements made here, and done so without even the little bit of explanation you have done here, which was a very good one.

 Since this research being done is supposed to be done for the benefit of the community, and to be done so without falsely accusing the innocent, then I feel that explanations such has your should be given. This should done instead of the statement I objected to, which I feel was  misleading.


 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on March 09, 2009, 04:54:41 am
Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.


  Well when a person uses him allowing so called "PODIA" people in the EMC as part of the research/evidence to show he is bad, shouldn't it be pointed out that the person making that accusation themselves is a more then likely a PODIA themselves?

 That is like an exploiter calling another person one IMO.

I don't think it's PODIA's that anyone is objecting to. It's the acceptance of new agers, twinkies, and bliss bunnies that most find objectionable.


I've stayed off this thread; I've tried to remain neutral.

Remaining quiet is getting increasingly more difficult. The flaming has turned what was a few simple questions, asked with respect, into a disaster. Y'all may think you're supporting Ben and Eagle Mountain, but you'd be wrong. As Al said earlier, you've made it look like Ben has something to hide. Sad thing is, most of y'all have never met Ben or Cat; you only know them from the internet. Y'all might want to open your ears and eyes, close your mouth, and learn something.

Remaining neutral is getting more and more difficult as well. I have opened my ears and eyes, kept my mouth closed, and have learned a few things. I hate to say this, but usually only the guilty refuse to answer questions. Ben, prove me wrong.

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 05:02:36 am
I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 09, 2009, 05:50:28 pm
Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

thanks moma .. you explained  it quite well .. .. i, if course, agree, "if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end " .. well said .. ..

i am not performing any ceremonies, i do not have a non-profit "spiritual" organization that asks for "donations .. i am not in any way claiming to be some sort of spiritual leader, chief, etc .. i have no long list of "titles" of any kind, i am just a common woman .. that is pretty obvious .. these people  keep trying to deflect the attention off of the carnes and onto myself and others .. i think that we all are wondering as to the whys of that particular tactic .. as frederica said, it is not helping at all .. my BQ is no ones business, if i were engaging in some sort of questionable "activity" that others had "concerns" about, then it would be conceivable that BQ would be questioned .. i will just say that poor rattles *guess* of 1/4 is quite a bit lower than my actual BQ.. lol ..
and thanks to frederica for once again saying to "take it elsewhere" .. if anyone has a problem with me, they should talk to me about it .. not bring it up in a thread where it has no relevance .. have questions, message me about them .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 09, 2009, 06:27:47 pm
I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.

your right frederica .. a lot of people are reluctant to even post in this thread .. they feel they will just be attacked by the flamers and the topic deflected and derailed, again .. .. it is difficult for this thread to even become an intelligent discussion of the subject because of this aspect .. .. and it NEEDS to be an intelligent discussion, not their flame war .. we are all quite familiar with the tactic they are using to deflect .. attack the people questioning .. .. we ALL have a right to question things! .. not only a right but a responsibility to do so! .. .. as has been said MANY times in here .. all we want ins the truth, whatever  that truth is .. is that so hard to understand .. .. as mike, yvette, et al quite obviously have nothing of value to add, other than flaming those asking the questions, then perhaps they should be barred from posting in this thread  .. then perhaps people that actually do have something of value to add would not be so reluctant to post .. jmho .. .. ... ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on March 09, 2009, 08:11:05 pm
I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.

your right frederica .. a lot of people are reluctant to even post in this thread .. they feel they will just be attacked by the flamers and the topic deflected and derailed, again .. .. it is difficult for this thread to even become an intelligent discussion of the subject because of this aspect .. .. and it NEEDS to be an intelligent discussion, not their flame war .. we are all quite familiar with the tactic they are using to deflect .. attack the people questioning .. .. we ALL have a right to question things! .. not only a right but a responsibility to do so! .. .. as has been said MANY times in here .. all we want ins the truth, whatever  that truth is .. is that so hard to understand .. .. as mike, yvette, et al quite obviously have nothing of value to add, other than flaming those asking the questions, then perhaps they should be barred from posting in this thread  .. then perhaps people that actually do have something of value to add would not be so reluctant to post .. jmho .. .. ... ..


  So basically what you are saying in this post is that you have the right to ask questions and nobody else does.

 I have not flamed  in this thread since I was warned not to do so by Dr. Al and Federica. Since given that warning I have done a pretty good job at following their requests as I have not recieved any more warnings, and nor have they even edited any of my posts as of lately.

 What I want to see in this little investigation is fairness across the board, and when I reach for it I am told I am flaming or derailing things.

 You seem to think that it is okay for you to question people, and their ancestry in regards to this issue. You even think it is okay for you to bring up what happens in other places, but then cry foul when it happens to you, and the rest of us get edited.

 Name one instance as of lately that I have flamed anyone? All I have done is made statements and asked questions. Nothing I have said in the last few days has amounted to flaming whatsoever.


 If this place is the honorable place that the moderators claim it is, then it should allow the voices and concerns of both parties be expressed as long as they are done so respectfully.

 It should also allow the both sides to question each other so that is not one sided like some kangaroo court.
 
 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 10:09:38 pm
Rattle, I don't know how to make this any more clear.  It's been cited several times in different places.  It's not about your feelings of another person.  It's not about BQ.  It's about the questions concerning possible misuse of Ceremonies, involvement of nuagers in the same, and concerns over permission to do the Ceremonies, and land use.  I have yet to see how personal attacks on each other solve the problem.  And if you don't think  constantly trying to point out what you consider a person's weakness not a personal attack, you need to think about it.  Cause both sides are doing it.  And it is a form of flaming.  Now can we please get to the issues at hand and drop the personal agendas.  And that goes for everybody, not just Rattle.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: 918ndnOkie on March 10, 2009, 07:17:39 pm
Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

thanks moma .. you explained  it quite well .. .. i, if course, agree, "if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end " .. well said .. ..

i am not performing any ceremonies, i do not have a non-profit "spiritual" organization that asks for "donations .. i am not in any way claiming to be some sort of spiritual leader, chief, etc .. i have no long list of "titles" of any kind, i am just a common woman .. that is pretty obvious .. these people  keep trying to deflect the attention off of the carnes and onto myself and others .. i think that we all are wondering as to the whys of that particular tactic .. as frederica said, it is not helping at all .. my BQ is no ones business, if i were engaging in some sort of questionable "activity" that others had "concerns" about, then it would be conceivable that BQ would be questioned .. i will just say that poor rattles *guess* of 1/4 is quite a bit lower than my actual BQ.. lol ..
and thanks to frederica for once again saying to "take it elsewhere" .. if anyone has a problem with me, they should talk to me about it .. not bring it up in a thread where it has no relevance .. have questions, message me about them .. .. .. .. ..

You're cherokee right? like Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: 918ndnOkie on March 10, 2009, 07:25:11 pm
Rattle, I don't know how to make this any more clear.  It's been cited several times in different places.  It's not about your feelings of another person.  It's not about BQ.  It's about the questions concerning possible misuse of Ceremonies, involvement of nuagers in the same, and concerns over permission to do the Ceremonies, and land use.  I have yet to see how personal attacks on each other solve the problem.  And if you don't think  constantly trying to point out what you consider a person's weakness not a personal attack, you need to think about it.  Cause both sides are doing it.  And it is a form of flaming.  Now can we please get to the issues at hand and drop the personal agendas.  And that goes for everybody, not just Rattle.

I dont think it should ever be about this bullshit idea of Blood Quantum...BUT It should be about people who are not enrolled with any federally recognized tribe going around and calling BS on natives or non natives selling or exploiting ceremonies....that in itself is kinda funny.

When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.

I fortunately dont have any people going and "selling tickets" to corn dance or anything, and for the most part us NE Okie skins keep to ourselves with stomps and such, there are occasional demonstrations, but its like a movie teaser, it lacks the meat and potatoes....

ohwell...i find it funny that there are certain people in here claiming to be what they are not

however...i will chose to remain a watchful bystander
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 10, 2009, 08:17:00 pm
When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.
[/quote]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that is what is trying to be accomplished.  Since some of the basic complaints came from "enrolled" members.  What we are trying to avoid is the personal opinions, agendas, verbal shots from people that has nothing to do with the subject.  And your right if you are not directly involved let it be.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Yawaywa Shun on March 10, 2009, 09:29:33 pm
When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that is what is trying to be accomplished.  Since some of the basic complaints came from "enrolled" members.  What we are trying to avoid is the personal opinions, agendas, verbal shots from people that has nothing to do with the subject.  And your right if you are not directly involved let it be.
[/quote]

And where are these members who made the complaints? [lies] [Numerous attempts to sidetrack] [Personal insults and innuendos]

If this guy is doing something wrong then it will come out. [More lies] [Numerous personal attacks and racist insults] Anyways good day to you all.


[Al's note- Yet more sidetracks and personal attacks, this time from a Kris Calderon, who did not even have the courtesy to introduce themselves but launched a series of vicous attacks with the very first post in here. Again, you are not doing Carnes any favors. You only hurt him and make him and EMC look guilty.]
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on March 10, 2009, 09:41:02 pm
Well, since this is mostly a group of engineered opinions that have no bearing on Ben Carnes I lock the thread.  If Al wishes to address the issue he can.  If someone has something valid and worth posting, PM us.  If you wish to Read Kenny Frost and Benard Red Cherries statements, you have to dig through all the side-tracts on your own.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 31, 2009, 08:41:32 pm
I do not know much about this .. this subject was brought to my attention by someone recently though and it seems to have some bearing here ..

1) the carnes have stated that “EMC” has state tax exempt status as a church
2) ben carnes speaks at many venues that are “political” .. the DNC (democratic national convention) in Denver is one example
3) ben carnes is the head of LPDOC .. a very political organization which lobby’s for the release of not only Leonard Peltier but all other “political prisoners”
4) carnes also claims to be involved in several “prisoner rights” organizations, which would also be classified as “political”
5) carnes has attended and even been a speaker at a great many political protests, I would think that all protests are categorized as “political”

I did some research after this was brought to my attention .. and it seems as if all of these “political” activities of carnes are forbidden to him because of EMC’s tax exempt status as well as LPDOC’s tax exempt status .. perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can shed some light on this .. .. if nothing else I would think that this would be important information for carnes to know about ..

 
http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_non501c3
Tax-exempt nonprofit organizations categorized under IRC 501(c)(3) in federal law [i.e. 26 USC 501(c)(3)] are generally permitted to "lobby" to some extent, but are absolutely prohibited from engaging in "political activity."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)
Political activity
Section 501(c)(3) organizations are subject to limits or absolute prohibitions on engaging in political activities.

Elections
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to intervene in elections to public office. [1] The Internal Revenue Service website elaborates upon this prohibition as follows:

"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

"Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, certain voter education activities (including presenting public forums and publishing voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity. In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not be prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.

"On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

"The Internal Revenue Service provides resources to exempt organizations and the public to help them understand the prohibition. As part of its examination program, the IRS also monitors whether organizations are complying with the prohibition."

Lobbying
In contrast to the absolute prohibition on political campaign interventions by all section 501(c)(3) organizations, public charities (but not private foundations) are permitted to conduct a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation. Although the law states that "no substantial part" of a public charity's activities may be devoted to lobbying, charities with very large budgets may lawfully expend a million dollars (under the "expenditure" test) or more (under the "substantial part" test) per year on lobbying. [11]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm
6. No Political Activity For or Against Candidates Permitted
Church tax exemptions are in jeopardy if an organization engages in direct political activity either against or on behalf of a political candidate or in an attempt to directly influence the passage of particular legislation. Churches and religious organizations, just as any other tax-exempt charitable organization, are free to comment on any social, political, or moral issues. They may not, however, speak out for or against political candidates if they wish to continue being tax-exempt. Losing tax-exempt status can mean both having to pay income taxes and that donations to the group will not be tax deductible by the donors.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 31, 2009, 08:55:14 pm
just wondering here .. ..

if carnes and his associates have nothing to hide, are doing nothing wrong .. then i have to ask why on some things, there are some questions ..

1) the carnes have closed down both of their EMC yahoo groups .. why, if there is nothing to hide, nothing wrong in what they are doing?
2) the carnes and their associates have an still are threatening people who have dared to ask questions .. why would they feel the need to threaten people if there is nothing to hide, nothing wrong in what they are doing?

to broaden this a bit .. there are a lot of new LP branch support groups under the umbrella of LPDOC .. a good many of them are set to private,  viewable only by their "friends" .. i and others question this, why would anyone feel the need to have a support group for LP set to private? .. is there something to hide in supporting LP?

idk .. just questions .. .. and we get no answers from any of these people .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Smart Mule on March 31, 2009, 09:33:18 pm
People holding positions of office for a nonprofit are able to be politically active with regard to issues their organization is involved with.  If Ben wanted to he could even lobby to a certain extent.  What he cannot do is, as a representative of a particular organization, campaign for a particular candidate.  He can state that he supports a particular candidate, he can state any organization he is involved with supports a particular candidate but he cannot campaign for them as a representative of any organization.  He is however allowed to personally support a particular candidate if he is not on the clock for either organization.  He can be politically pro-active for any organization he works with/for bringing to light issues, supporting legislation etc.  He can also do this on a personal level. Does that make sense?  Nonprofit rules and regs can definately be confusing.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on March 31, 2009, 09:41:10 pm
thanks sky!
yep it makes sense .. i could not make much sense of what i was reading .. it was pretty confusing and with no consensus as to whether people, like carnes, could or could not be involved in anything political .. .. thanks for clearing it up in language we can all understand!! lol
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on April 01, 2009, 04:29:08 pm
Tachia,

You made reference that Bens friends /supporters are making threats against people who ask questions.  Can you prove this?  I personally have never heard anyone threaten another person over asking questions. 

[Sidetrack and personal attacks removed.]

That has nothing to do with others who support the Carnes.  If I am wrong, please show proof of these threats you accuse many of.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on April 01, 2009, 05:29:27 pm
And keep in mind that there is a big difference between asking questions and committing libel.  If one where to use this board to handle a personal vendetta, throw out accusations to assassinate someones character and commit libel without proof of their accusations, then the Carnes have every right to threaten to take it to a court of law.  Especially if they can prove those accusations are false.   I'm not saying that is what is going on...I'm just saying.  So, what proof do you have that threats are being made over asking questions and asking questions only?  Per your accusation/statement.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on April 01, 2009, 06:19:01 pm
cat carnes is a member here, if she wishes to make any allegations against me, or any others .. then SHE needs to come in here and do so .. ben carnes is a member here, he too needs to speak for himself .. ..

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..

cat carnes: i "threatened you with physical violence" in an email???? .. i have ALL the emails that went back and forth between us and in re-reading them ALL this morning, NOWHERE do i see anything that could even be REMOTELY viewed as a threat of any kind, much less one of physical violence .. lol  .. .. (just more of the myspace lies and drama)
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on April 01, 2009, 06:28:28 pm
You even typed the word threatened in bold print so we would all see it.  So obviously, you feel this is an important fact that you want people to see.  So lets see these threats against people for "asking questions".
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: mamaduck33 on April 01, 2009, 06:56:29 pm
cat carnes is a member here, if she wishes to make any allegations against me, or any others .. then SHE needs to come in here and do so .. ben carnes is a member here, he too needs to speak for himself .. ..

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..

cat carnes: i "threatened you with physical violence" in an email???? .. i have ALL the emails that went back and forth between us and in re-reading them ALL this morning, NOWHERE do i see anything that could even be REMOTELY viewed as a threat of any kind, much less one of physical violence .. lol  .. .. (just more of the myspace lies and drama)

Damn Tachia,

You act like you don't have a myspace account. lol  I happen to be a member of many sites, not just myspace and I have hardly been on much the last 7 months.  You probably use myspace more than I do. lol  Your back peddling/character assassination technique of "don't listen to them...they are from myspace" is getting tired.  Anyone who has known Rattle or I on any boards long enough know that we have a mind and are fully capable of thinking and speaking for ourselves.  We don't go anywhere and say things that someone else told us to.  And the Carnes have never asked anyone to come in here and say anything on their behalf.  Matter of fact, they have said the opposite and said don't bother.  Many pretty much agree that they don't have to answer to you or this board.  Now...

*still waiting for proof of these threats you claimed*
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 01, 2009, 09:58:12 pm

quite frankly i believe that we are all sick of cat and ben sending in their myspace friends to "defend" them with rumors, lies, innuendo, and hearsay .. it is quite obvious that none of these myspace friends of the carnes KNOW them at all IN REAL LIFE and are merely relying on what they are told to say .. .. .. .. .. for myself .. i have nothing to say to these myspace people .. let the carnes themselves come in here and straighten this all out ..



 For the record I have never been asked or told by anyone to come here and say anything.
  In fact I have been told that I should just ignore this site. Furthermore as well as you claim to know me Tachia, then you like anyone else from Myspace or any other site I go to; should know I very much have a mind of my own and will speak out on  things no matter what almost anyone tells me, if what I feel I am saying is something I think I should be saying.

[Sidetrack removed]

 

 
 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: frederica on April 02, 2009, 01:18:25 am
Aside from the chatter, Tachia do you have names of the people that are making threats?  Can send IM.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on April 02, 2009, 01:31:28 am
frederica .. IM on the way .. ..
"they" have made this ridiculous and maligning enough as it is .. i did not feel ok about posting names and dragging others into it ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2009, 08:09:48 am
Wish we'd caught this earlier. The extended smears and back and forth name calling and other sidetracks were removed, as any future ones will be. Once again, seems EMC supporters will do anything to avoid discussing the topic at hand, as Yvonne (mamaduck) showed with a later sidetrack.

As I've said repeatedly, part of what disturbs me is that the Carnes seem to have no problem with such behavior being done on their behalf or in their name. That, along with the EMC members and supporters openly not caring that Carnes may not be truthfulabout many things.

Tachia did send us her account, but asked that the matter be dropped since she is so tired of the threats.

Ms. Carnes asked us weeks ago to contact her and promised to sort everything out. She never answered.

And yet while claiming they have no time to answer anyone, they apparently have a lot of time to trash this forum on forums of their own.





Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 25, 2009, 04:58:30 am
Why is it that anyone asking questions about Ben Carnes, his Sundance, or Eagle Mountain is always accused of having a personal agenda? They either don't like someone who is friends with Ben, have had a falling out with Ben or Cat, they're jealous of Ben and Cat, etc. The list of reasons why someone would question what Ben is doing goes on and on. Seems like every day something is added to that list.

When Danielle first asked about Ben and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, it was brought up that she was fighting with Walks. Everyone was sure that was the only reason she was questioning what was going on in Colorado. Because of this interpersonal drama, no one really wanted to consider that there might be problems.

When people who know Ben and Cat in real life withdrew their support, others rushed to his defense, claiming that the only reason these people were speaking out against Ben was because of personal differences, jealousy, etc. Some of his defenders know him; most who have posted here are only internet fans.

Neither time have we been able to have a serious discussion about what the problems are. Both times it turned into a flame war. The character, personality, family, lifestyle of everyone involved has been discussed. Everyone that is except for Ben Carnes.

I find it telling that Ben came and made two statements back in April 2008, when only Danielle was questioning his legitimacy. This time, when many have doubts, he's too busy to answer questions or explain. I read recently where a Spiritual Leader doesn't need to answer to the people, he only has to answer to the Creator. I read it; doesn't mean I believe it. I thought any leader was responsible to and for his people. Back when Ben made his statements last year, a friend commented to me that he didn't sound like any Spiritual Leader they knew. Too much talk about the things he's done, the things he's accomplished, too much "I". At the time, I didn't agree; I couldn't see it. I guess I didn't want to see it. When I reread those posts recently, I saw what my friend had seen a year ago.

When people started withdrawing their support, I wondered why. I kept my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open. I've learned a lot. I still have questions; I think most of us do. This is an emotional topic; it's affected many people. We need to set the emotion aside and discuss this the same way we would anyone else placed in Research Needed.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 25, 2009, 08:17:20 pm
  bls926,

 I am not really going to get into this discussion any more then I need to anymore. One of the things I have been saying for a long time is that some of the players in this issue have made all kinds of threats to those of us who are supporting Ben, and have done it on several occasions over the last few years for other reasons. In the past I have had not came forward with  proof that such activity was being performed and all my statements in regards to that have hence been called fabricated or out right lies. In the last week I have provided proof to Dr. Al that my claims of those threats are real, as one of the individuals who was making them to me, made the exact same one recently in public that they had to me in private last summer.

 When a person makes threats to somebody that is in an issue like this, I would think you would have better judgment then to associate yourself with that person and/or believe everything they are saying is truthful. The issue of their character should be really looked at.

  I admit that I have exchanged some insults with people online, and have been in some pretty bad arguments. However I have never threatened violence against anyone in any of these issue including this one. I would not associate myself with anyone who did regardless of what side they were on in this issue. It is never right to behave in such a manner period, and is not even legal.

 The threats I received last year I held in my possession and never came forward with them for personal reasons of my own. It was not until recently that I figured that it was time that I came forward with them, and I have proven that I was never lying about them at all.

 I have other things in my possession of a similar nature that I have yet to come forward with as well, if I decide to even come forward with them. Each and every thing I know about that I have left unsaid proves much of the things I have been saying on here for a while now.

 What disturbs me about some of the statements I see you make, is that you seem to have made your mind up as to the guilt of the things Ben Carnes has been accused of.

 Have you not realized the title of this section is "research needed?"
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 25, 2009, 08:23:48 pm
I would also like to state that what this group is about is taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions.

 So to me it does not do good for the reputation of this site to allow the words of those who engage in what is in my opinion criminal behavior to be seen and used as something credible in the investigation of others.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 25, 2009, 08:46:56 pm
I would also like to state that what this group is about is taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions.

 So to me it does not do good for the reputation of this site to allow the words of those who engage in what is in my opinion criminal behavior to be seen and used as something credible in the investigation of others.

What gave you the idea that NAFPS is only about "taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions"?

"Criminal behavior" . . . There is so much more to it than that. People are hurt, misdirected, emotionally abused, conned, and scammed without any laws being broken. Yes, there are many that have acted illegally. However, I don't think we should wait until someone crosses that line to ask questions or expose them as a fraud.

"things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions" . . . This I agree with, as do the majority of the members of NAFPS. That's why this discussion is taking place.

Are you accusing me of engaging in criminal behavior? No, I didn't think you were. I don't think we need a rehash of who you're referring to.

That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked. Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 25, 2009, 09:12:40 pm
  bls926,

 What disturbs me about some of the statements I see you make, is that you seem to have made your mind up as to the guilt of the things Ben Carnes has been accused of.

 Have you not realized the title of this section is "research needed?"

I cut the first part of your post, cause I am not adding to the drama, the "he said she said" that any discussion of Ben Carnes has turned into.

My statements disturb you? Statements you've seen me make online? I stayed out of any discussion about Ben and Cat for months. I tried to remain neutral. I know Ben and Cat; not on a personal level, but have corresponded with them on the phone and by e-mail over the past year or so. I worked with Cat on the Rachel Holzwarth problem and the Global Eden Event. I didn't want to believe any of the things I was hearing. I was sure there was some explanation. If there is, I haven't heard it yet. And I have asked, more than once or twice.

My statements disturb you? Child, I have been very restrained. You should hear what I think in private.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 25, 2009, 09:16:55 pm




 That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked. Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.


 
Quote
What gave you the idea that NAFPS is only about "taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions"?

 And.....
Quote

"Criminal behavior" . . . There is so much more to it than that. People are hurt, misdirected, emotionally abused, conned, and scammed without any laws being broken. Yes, there are many that have acted illegally. However, I don't think we should wait until someone crosses that line to ask questions or expose them as a fraud.

 Simple. This group investigates people that have or have not yet crossed the line of things that might not be actual crimes, and some that have committed crimes. All of this you have pointed out yourself as well. We have now said the exact same thing, but in different words.

 I am shocked you didn't catch on to the meaning of my statement there.

 
Quote
"things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions" . . . This I agree with, as do the majority of the members of NAFPS. That's why this discussion is taking place.

 Yes, but it should be a discussion, with all both sides being allowed to speak and present concerns they may have with what is being said, and by whom.

Quote
Are you accusing me of engaging in criminal behavior? No, I didn't think you were. I don't think we need a rehash of who you're referring to.

Why would you even ask this when you knew that I was not?

 I do agree that we do not need to "rehash of whom I was referring to." I was simply stating that I have presented evidence of my before mentioned claims, and from there I was hoping that since I have proved they were real that those issues would be taken in consideration.

 
Quote
That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked.

 So if you were on trial, and it was your life and reputation that was being questioned, and could be damaged; you would not care what kind of a jury you were given, and nor would you care about the character of some of the witnesses and their motives being put into question?

 Ever done jury duty before? Notice how both the prosecution and the defense get to pick the jury members, and how later on the witnesses are cross examined?

 I think on here since in a way this is like a trial, similar things should be done to make the investigation as fair and as clean as possible.


 
Quote
Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.

I do not appreciate whatsoever how you are talking to me here. All I did was come here and let it be known to you, and other readers that I have talked to Dr. Al and have provided evidence that some of what I have stated before was true.

 If that is "derailing this thread", then I think anything I say regardless of the content will be declared as such because you have already made up your mind as to what is true or untrue regardless of nothing being proven at this time.

 In that case why even call it research needed?

Once again I do not appreciate that tone of your replies to me as I was doing what others have done. If you notice on page 14 I believe, even Dr. Al makes statements as to some sort of proof of people making threats, but it is never said who.

If it is valid there, then it should be valid here.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 26, 2009, 12:07:58 am
OK I have something I want to say here...

With respect to the traditional ways Bens supporters all feel so strongly they are entitled to have access to, I saw some really standard questions about what qualifications are required of people leading these traditions get posted over on Indianz.com . No names were included , just a reasonably objective description of a situation.

Rattlebone YOU turned this into a deeply personal attack on the person asking these very standard questions.

I don't know Ben, and i don't know any of the people involved , but just on general principal here is how I see the situation.

The people are who are being served by a Spiritual leader have every right to ask that person who taught them, who gave then these rights, and who their community of Elders is.

It shouldn't matter if the person asking these questions is an Elder or a mentally unstable and violent druggie, under no circumstances is it ever appropriate to answer those standard questions with a personal attack on the person who asked them with the intention of getting them to stop asking the questions.

Someone mentioned people have felt threatened and intimidated not to ask questions, and someone else said they didn't believe that ever happened. People don't have to be physically threatened to be intimidated into not asking questions or made to feel unsafe to ask, and what i saw happen in the thread below would make anyone who wasn't a Saint feel scared to ask what needs to be asked of anyone claiming to be a Spiritual leader. Ben and Cat seemed to be very concerned about the issue of cultural misappropriation last summer when they were speaking out against that woman with the drum and the stolen blood. How exactly is it going to be possible for anyone to avoid supporting frauds or marginally trained people, if it becomes normal to respond to standard questions with personal attacks to shut people up? You don't think frauds use the same tactics ? Without being able to ask questions without fear of reprisals, how exactly are people supposed to avoid endangering themselves and avoid supporting people who shouldn't be supported?

As i see it, and this is just my own 1/2 baked understanding of things, Spiritual leadership is about responsibility and usually comes with the ability to unite people and create peace. Where is the responsibility here ? Why is there so many bad feelings? Where is the Spiritual leadership ? Why are people being attacked for asking legitimate questions and why is Ben standing by and letting this happen?

Rattlebone, i see you fight some good fights , and i respect that, but I also see you are very determined to dispute the boundaries and traditional structures that maintain the health of the of the very things you seem to feel you are entitled to access.

I'd really appreciate it if you could take a step back and look at the bigger picture and realize these ways aren't just for you and your buddies. If you expect access you first have a responsibility to respect the traditional structures which maintain these traditions in a good way for all the generations to come. 

it seems to me that one of the most important parts of this traditional structure is the guidence of Elders who are recognized as such by the communities where these traditions originated.

In the thread below, Glenda Deer gave a bit more information about who Ben's Elders and Spiritual community actually are, and that is helpful. I'm not sure if that will answer peoples questions or not, but it is helpful and it does answer at least some of what was being asked.     

 
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36742&whichpage=6
Glenda Deer
Quote
I’ve been wondering where this weird ass obsession with my brother Ben came from, and then I realized there was something about these so-called “valid questions” that you believe Ben should answer to. When I saw the above repost of David Hill’s statement in support of Ben, your questions should have been put to rest. Isn’t or wasn’t David’s word good enough for you?

OK , I don't know David Hill , and i'm not clear if he is recognized as someone who knows enough about these ways to give someone permission to practice them. I have enough of a clue to know he is a respected activist, but I'm not sure being an effective activist and knowing what is required to be a Spiritual leader are neccesarily the same thing . I don't mean any disrespect to David Hill , but I need to ask,  within the culture of the communities where Sundance originated is David Hill's endorsement sufficent ? 

Glenda Deer
Quote
You question Ben’s credentials as an Indian, a Sun dance Chief and a warrior, that is quite arrogant and shows your ignorance. Well, you met Ben and you know he is Indian, but you were trying to cast innuendos in a bad way to plant seeds of suspicion. You question whether he is a Sun Dance Chief, but are you a Sun Dancer?? Are you, Bren? And is it even any of your business? Why do you need to stick your nose in matters that you aren’t familiar with especially in regards to the spirituality of another. If you truly knew about Sun dances and their different protocols, you were speaking well out of your league.


You already know this history, again from David Hill, but did you ever investigate by calling Chief Tayac about Ben and how his son placed this honor upon Ben? Ben didn’t ask for it, and was told that he couldn’t say no. What did Ben do? He did what he was told and stepped to the front of the line to carry that altar. I bet that you also didn’t know that Ben did not ask to Sun dance..... Chief Billy Tayac told him to Sun dance and that he should have already been a Sun dancer. What did Ben do? He began Sun Dancing, why? Because he respected the Chief who told him to dance. And is that any of your business...you aren’t a Sun dancer... it isn’t. But if you thought something was wrong, why didn’t you bring it to Chief Tayac’s attention? Let them investigate if there is any truth to these so-called “valid questions”. Traditionally, you don’t go outside to an Internet site of self-appointed crusaders/puppets and begin questioning anyone. It isn’t your place....

Thank you. That information is really helpful and answers some of the main questions that were being asked.

I would agree that if Ben was serving a continually existing culturally strong Native community, this isn't a discussion that belongs online outside of that Native community, but that doesn't appear to be the case.  Ben created a presence for himself online through opening a myspace group for Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council . Ben has taken his role as a Spiritual leader into cyberspace, and some of his supporters such as rattlebone claim to have never met the guy and only know him in cyberspace, so in my mind it seems fair that people in cybrspace should be able to ask who passed these ways on to him and who recognizes and supports him as a Spiritual leader.
 
While i don't know the "motives"  of the people asking these questions - I really don't see why that should matter. To make an analogy , nobody who goes to a doctor in an area where there is lots of imposters and expects to have their love life and disputes in their work place made public in retaliation for asking to see his license to practice. If Ben is doing everything in a way that respects the structure of traditional protocols i can't see how anyone would misconstrue these standard questions as any kind of "attack'.

All that was being asked is the questions that are necessary if people are going to be able to avoid getting involved with people who are doing something wrong, and there is lots of them out there.

Quote
There is over 14 pages of a thread on Ben, and not once have they come up with any proof, in spite of all the proof and leads to investigate right in front of their noses. Ben has never went and dignified their questions with an answer. Why should he? And who are the people hiding behind the fraud board that Ben should account to? No one that Ben should be accountable to. You should have called Chief Tayac, but then David already told you Ben is legit...but STIL you carry on.
Well as I already pointed out, Ben is presenting himself as the leader of some sort of traditionally based Spiritual community on line, and as this is the case it seems fair to me he should have some accountability to the "on line' community.

Quote
Anyway, if you want to see if Ben is a fraud or see what he does, then many of you who attend the Leonard Peltier Defense Offense Committee planning conference on July 4th & 5th can get the opportunity to see for yourself. Because following the conference, they will host their 4th Annual Eagle Mountain Sun Dance. That is if you can come in a good way, and show some respect to the ceremony. Their Sun Dance is July 5th to the 12th, and of course you will need to speak with Ben about attending. He doesn’t act like a fraud to me, most of them will hide from everyone and do it quiet, but instead, he is opening up. It is so sad you don’t see the difference...or don't want to see...

These stupid ass attacks against my brother needs to stop
(continues into a whole different issue .....

Asking standard questions about someones Elders isn't an attack , but the personal attacks on the people asking these questions most certainly is, and I'm sorry to say that in this situation i haven't seen anything that looks like Spiritual leadership coming from Ben.

I'm really sorry to jump in here and say anything because it really isn't my business and I'm just a nobody with very liitle knowledge, but i have seen people asking legitimate questions and getting visciously personally attacked for this and IMO thats just wrong.

Spiritual leadership is a function not a position, and in this situation it doesn't seem to be functioning very well.

i think you all should be ashamed of yourselves and you owe the people who asked these questions a sincere apology.

Just my very crabby 10 cents worth... and i'm sorry if i've offended anyone with my big mouth
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on April 26, 2009, 01:39:49 am
 In the last week I have provided proof to Dr. Al that my claims of those threats are real, as one of the individuals who was making them to me, made the exact same one recently in public that they had to me in private last summer.

 When a person makes threats to somebody that is in an issue like this, I would think you would have better judgment then to associate yourself with that person and/or believe everything they are saying is truthful. The issue of their character should be really looked at....


This wasn't addressed to me, but I think I should make what RB said a little clearer and add some other facts here.

RB did provide evidence to me of what seems a very clear threat to him, an "I know where you live" kind of remark made online. Because the remark actually does reveal personal information, I won't repost it or link to it.

But what Carnes's supporters don't seem to care to notice is the allegations made against Carnes go far beyond the initial accusations.

Suppose we now discount statements from this one person? We should not do that, as Momma P points out, because even statements made by an unprincipled person get some consideration. Someone in organized crime who is a witness to a murder still gets called as a witness, even though he's a criminal himself. And I rush to say, the Carnes are certainly not accused of any kind of wrongdoing on that level....

The fact remains, even if we ignore the people who made the initial accusations, the initial questions still remain:

We don't know who supposedly made Carnes a Sundance chief, and they refuse to say.
The EMC still does ceremonies on Ute land without permission and with the opposition of elders.
EMC still has Nuagers within the group, a Nuager brought in by the Carnes themselves and doing Nuage ceremonies and supposed healing, and another Nuager promoting Nuage frauds on their website.


Those are all facts that exist independent of the people who initially accused the Carnes.

Yes, RB, after 15 pages, we do have facts. The only thing missing is the Carnes's explanation or defense. Far from "refusing to dignify", they seem to be hiding and doing their best to avoid answering these questions.

Let me ask you, can you think of a single reasonable defense to any of these wrongdoings of theirs? If they named who allegedly made Carnes a chief, maybe. But the only good reason not to say that is simple: People would check to see if it's true, and find out it isn't.

I can't think of any reasonable defense for an alleged NDN spiritual community to invite Nuagers to sell ceremonies. And above all I can't think of any reasonable defense to hold Ute elders in such contempt as I've seen some Carnes's supporters do on this thread, and as the Carnes have done themselves.

On a side note, I had thought about removing all these questions about ethics, the purpose of NAFPS, etc, but I don't see how anymore. And at least the questions are being discusssed civilly now, unlike through much of the thread.

But if these questions threaten to sidetrack the thread too much from the subject of the Carnes and EMC, we must yank it right back to what it's supposed to be about.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on April 27, 2009, 02:28:41 am
i am not going to quote mama p, bls, and al .. .. suffice it to say that i agree with everything they are saying .. ..

my question now is ..

can i post in here without being once again viciously attacked on a personal level ??? .. ..


disagree, argue, debate my words, thoughts, beliefs etc, but do not attack me personally .. there is no need whatsoever to take this discussion down to a level of complete and total disrespect in a personal vicious attack on me (or others) .. ya know i have not said one "personal" thing against the carnes and their associates, and believe me i certainly could as i KNOW them in real life ..i could very well "sling mud" as "they" are doing .. i do not stoop to that level, their personal life is not in question here .. nor is mine!!! .. ..
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 27, 2009, 04:48:29 pm




Quote
Rattlebone YOU turned this into a deeply personal attack on the person asking these very standard questions.

 You know I don't know if I should even be responding to this post of yours  or Al's because im not sure if doing so will seem as if I am "derailing" this thread, or making attacks on people. All of which really isn't my intentions.

 My initial response over there was questioning the statement made by the person in question in regards to their assumption that the Carnes had whites in ceremonies, or people they assumed were such. Of course in that case I mentioned the person(s) by name, but I will not here.

 In that individuals statements they mentioned Sweats in regards to this issue, but did not mention the Sun Dance.

 So if we are just talking about sweats in regard to their post, even Al has agreed with me that allowing NONS in sweats isn't necessarily a bad thing. Al has problems with allowing them to do Sundances. I on the other hand won't make any real concrete statement or decision on the matter of Sundances as I am not one, and don't know much about them.

 However  I do not believe in the concept of "race," so such factors would not bother me as long as it was okay with the elder(s) or spiritual leader(s). Allowing NONS into such things can be problematic, and troublesome I agree, but the problems they can cause I have seen caused by people who were of Indian blood themselves.

 I personally don't think the Creator see's any person on this planet different then another, or loves another less because of such a thing as race. It is in my belief that a spiritual person has the duty of helping People period. This of course DOES NOT MEAN that I believe people should just be doing whatever  they want in regards to ceremonies and Native ways either. I have known many an elder in my life who would allow trusted NONS into ceremonies if they trusted them, or people who did not look NDN as long as they trusted them too. Sure it was not something that happened frequently, but it did happen.

 A lot of that has Grey areas, but life is full of grey areas and issues to deal with in itself.

 When I came to this site a year ago, the person whom made that post over on Indianz was here side by side with two of the posters still present, and they were backing Mr.Carnes. One of those people they were here backing is of course white looking and un- enrolled. So when I see them making such statements now it bothers me because it seems to me they are saying one thing, and then doing another.

 That post was not hypothetical as it was claimed. One section of it mentions "Some wonder if he is enrolled, he has admitted himself he didn't start gathering the where with all about being Indian until he was in prison as an adult. He said he was raised in juvenile facilites his whole life before that, now wants to act as a spiritual leader and chief," which I felt was wrong to do so. People have made mistakes at times in their lives, and should we hold that against them their entire lives?

 Heck didn't most of the leaders of AIM have records?


Quote
Someone mentioned people have felt threatened and intimidated not to ask questions, and someone else said they didn't believe that ever happened. People don't have to be physically threatened to be intimidated into not asking questions or made to feel unsafe to ask, and what i saw happen in the thread below would make anyone who wasn't a Saint feel scared to ask what needs to be asked of anyone claiming to be a Spiritual leader.

 You know this is a very good point you are making. Perhaps I would not feel as strongly about this issue and some of it's players had I not received the threats by them I have. I do admit I am no saint, and had been in many arguments with them in the past over other issues.

  However, when this issue first broke and I became aware it was going on, it was on myspace and not on here. When it was being discussed and even argued over there long before the issue came here; I was threatened with both physical violence as well as stalking. I have pretty much proved that to be true.

 So when I was questioning those who were asking questions back then, they tried to silence me with threats. Some of those threats they have now made good on and have carried certain aspects of them through. Why? Because I dared to challenge their motives and questions with questions about themselves.


If anyone feels that I am getting off track or anything with this post feel free to delete it or whatever. I just felt I needed to respond to some of what was said by MP

 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 27, 2009, 07:02:45 pm
Hi Rattlebone

I'm not sure if were getting off track but if we are maybe one of the mods will make your post into the start of a new thread about dealing with interpersonal issues - or something. Hah ... when Walks was complaining Ben owed him money I was thinking of starting a thread for people who had stuff borrowed that hadn't been returned... LOL

I want to respond to what your saying here because I think we're getting close to some of the core issues.

All the quotes below are from Rattlebone's last post
Quote
My initial response over there was questioning the statement made by the person in question in regards to their assumption that the Carnes had whites in ceremonies, or people they assumed were such.

One of the things I notice is people usually have areas where they argree and areas where they disagree, and if they share an interest in an area they argree they may put the area they disagree on the back burner. As time passes and they see more and more of the area they disagree they realize more and more they really disagree and then the area where there is a disagreement becomes more and more of a priority to resolve. If this fails some bitter feelings can result because the areas of disagree begin to over flow and contaminate even the areas where there is agreement .

Quote
I on the other hand won't make any real concrete statement or decision on the matter of Sundances as I am not one, and don't know much about them.

I think the point is, after allowing non natives to participate in central roles in these ceremonies, and seeing the problems that resulted, there is many Elders who decided long term preservation of the structure of these traditions was more important than allowing individuals to occupy central roles in these ceremonies . I know very little about the details of these ceremonies, but common sense suggests expecting some individuals to make some personal sacrifices in order to facilitate the long term preservation of these traditions is the 'side" i want to support.

I don't have much sympathy for non native people who insist they should have the freedom to whatever role suits them in a traditional ceremony, but I do have a lot of sympathy for the mixed blood people who have been involved for decades and even generations who are now not only being asked to step back , but are being made the target of as lot of resentment for problems they never personally had any part in creating.

A mixed blood person I have a lot of respect for has always had Sundancers in their family, and they told me how their cousin who isn't enrolled was in the middle of fufilling his commitment and people in their community respected this as the family is well known, but then some Sundancers from somewhere else came and just treated their cousin like a piece of shit. The whole family and even the community was really offended.

So while I fully support those Elders who are looking at the big picture and who want to protect and preserve these traditions for future generations, I am aware of the sacrifice thats being demanded of a lot of people who occupy those gray areas, I don't support hatred . Not ever .  And I do support those who have enough respect to see the big picture and make the sacrifice of steping back. 
 
Quote
However  I do not believe in the concept of "race," so such factors would not bother me as long as it was okay with the elder(s) or spiritual leader(s). Allowing NONS into such things can be problematic, and troublesome I agree, but the problems they can cause I have seen caused by people who were of Indian blood themselves.

Racism is a really complicated topic, and it seems to be a few different things that get tangled together.

In the case of non native people being excluded from some aspects of traditional cultures I think the underlying reasons are to do with what happenes when people carrying the world view of primarily non native cultures get mixed in overwhelming proportions with a few people who carry a primarily indigenous world view. I agree that these problems are not only carried by non native people, but if the native community and Elders are going to have the job of dealing with these problems, it seems they should be allowed to focus on their own people , without being overwhelmed by a never ending torrential flow of non native people. 

Quote
I personally don't think the Creator see's any person on this planet different then another, or loves another less because of such a thing as race. It is in my belief that a spiritual person has the duty of helping People period. This of course DOES NOT MEAN that I believe people should just be doing whatever ever they want in regards to ceremonies and Native ways either. I have known many an elder in my life who would allow trusted NONS into ceremonies if they trusted them, or people who did not look NDN as long as they trusted them too. Sure it was not something that happened frequently, but it did happen.

I think the underlying concerns influencing this dialog is much more based in maintaing and respecting cultural protocols , and the importance of preserving native traditions within a cultural environment which preserves these.

Quote
A lot of that has Grey areas, but life is full of grey areas and issues to deal with in itself.

Yes and it is these gray areas and the people in them are the main force which is interfereing with creating protective boundaries and undermining the power of many Native people who have very legitimate concerns about maintaining correct cultural protocols So you get some people trying to say there should be no gray areas, and in their pain at continuously being violated, directing hatred at these people and saying people are either NDN or not period.

My own opinion is there are people who fall between the cracks and who are for one reason or another are legitimately influenced and a part of both cultures, and if people find themselves in this position they have a responsibility to try and solve the problems their community creates.

One of the simplist solutions seems to me to be that the people occupying gray areas should step back from occupying the central and sensitive positions of traditional leadership , and leave these positions to be occupied by people who are strongly supported by culturally intact native communities.

The other thing people in gray areas can do to make sure they aren't a part of the problem is to make sure they aren't supporting leadership outside of those who have the strong cultural and community support reffered to above.
 
Quote
When I came to this site a year ago, the person whom made that post over on Indianz was here side by side with two of the posters still present, and they were backing Mr.Carnes. One of those people they were here backing is of course white looking and un- enrolled. So when I see them making such statements now it bothers me because it seems to me they are saying one thing, and then doing another.

Rattlebone, I'm not suprised by this at all , because as i pointed out these situations are composed of many interconnected things and people often put aside a disagreement in one area to work together in the area where they agree. I don't see it as hypocrisy, i see it as human beings trying to find a path through a complex and unprecedented cultural situation within the context of their own lives, personal alligences and joys and pains. Of course we all are a bit confused . But personal attacks and trying to humiliate each other isn't going to help.

Quote
Heck didn't most of the leaders of AIM have records?

I already posted this link, but learning Billy Tayaks involvement in this situation it is probably even more relevent.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

Another thing connected to this , I hesitate to say much about ....  because i only heard some grumblings and don't fully understand this or how different tribes see this, but in some traditions, the roles of Spiritual leadership and being a warrior are kept sepreate. Maybe this is because it's really hard to work to create harmonious relationships and confront intractable enemies at the same time. Whatever the reasons for this, I am under the impression some cultures Elders very strongly disagreed with people involved in AIM being given any rights to lead some types of ceremonies. I'm not sure if this is relevent to this situation or the ceremonies in question, and maybe someone else would be better able to explain this , and if that might be part of the issue here.   

Quote
Perhaps I would not feel as strongly about this issue and some of it's players had I not received the threats by them I have.

I agree that using threats isn't helpful, I don't support this. But on the other hand i understand this just shows people are feeling really desperate to hang onto power and control and they are feeling so confused and upset they doing crazy things to achieve this. i don't think anyone in this situation is a "bad person" and i see all of you making serious efforts to do good things. I just wish you'd stop trashing each other on a person level. In case you haven't noticed,  (  LOL ) we are all a bit screwed up and sometimes do dumb things.

One of the things mediation teaches is that everybody is acting out of a legitimate need , and everybodies real needs deserve respect.

The questions that have been asked here are about authorization , cultural protocols and how they are being maintained are are legitimate questions which connect with very legitimate needs.   

While I see long term cultural protection as more important than the rights of individuals to have experiences, i also feel a lot of sympathy for the people who find themself in a gray area.

Rattlebone, like i've said, I respect many of the arguements you bring forward advocating for these people, but one of the things that has bothered me about what you bring to the table, is while you are a strong advocate for the rights of people who find themselves some where in between, i don't see you counterbalancing this with equally strong advocacy for the responsibilities and sacrifices to the bigger picture these people must accept if they aren't going to be part of the problem .

I understand these are really deeply painful issues for a lot of people, but respect for protocols  and maintianing traditions in a good way for future generations seems like it should be everyones first priorotiy. Once we get that clear, we need to agree on how to do this. My own opinion is the most effective way to achieve this is by leaving positions of leadership to people living in strong traditionally minded communities.

The questions being asked here about Ben are not personal but simply , does he have that traditional community and the Elders within those communites giving him sufficent support?

Again, I'm sorry to jump in here as i know very little about the details of this situation or the specific traditions being discussed. My only strength is, i'm not personlly involved and my common sense hasn't become confused by being personally involved.

I really hope this helps this situation be less painful for people. 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 30, 2009, 03:18:20 am
The fact remains, even if we ignore the people who made the initial accusations, the initial questions still remain:

We don't know who supposedly made Carnes a Sundance chief, and they refuse to say.
The EMC still does ceremonies on Ute land without permission and with the opposition of elders.
EMC still has Nuagers within the group, a Nuager brought in by the Carnes themselves and doing Nuage ceremonies and supposed healing, and another Nuager promoting Nuage frauds on their website.


Those are all facts that exist independent of the people who initially accused the Carnes.




OK I have something I want to say here...

With respect to the traditional ways Bens supporters all feel so strongly they are entitled to have access to, I saw some really standard questions about what qualifications are required of people leading these traditions get posted over on Indianz.com . No names were included , just a reasonably objective description of a situation.

Quote
The people are who are being served by a Spiritual leader have every right to ask that person who taught them, who gave then these rights, and who their community of Elders is.

Quote
As i see it, and this is just my own 1/2 baked understanding of things, Spiritual leadership is about responsibility and usually comes with the ability to unite people and create peace. Where is the responsibility here ? Why is there so many bad feelings? Where is the Spiritual leadership ? Why are people being attacked for asking legitimate questions and why is Ben standing by and letting this happen?

Quote
it seems to me that one of the most important parts of this traditional structure is the guidence of Elders who are recognized as such by the communities where these traditions originated.

Quote
Well as I already pointed out, Ben is presenting himself as the leader of some sort of traditionally based Spiritual community on line, and as this is the case it seems fair to me he should have some accountability to the "on line' community.

Quote
Spiritual leadership is a function not a position, and in this situation it doesn't seem to be functioning very well.



Al has listed the questions, again. These are the valid questions that have been asked over and over and haven't been answered.

Moma made an excellent post. It got me to thinking about Sundance protocol and tradition and the role of a Spiritual Leader.

I've never been to a Sundance and am not familiar with it. I know people who attend, some that dance and some that support. I decided to ask them about it. I quoted the parts of Moma's post that we discussed, as well as the questions we've all been asking.

I knew that Frank Fools Crow gave Sundance to the Piscataway many years ago. They held their Sundance in Maryland up until 2005 or 2006. I've been told that Chief Tayac gave Sundance to Ben Carnes and made him a Sundance Leader. I wondered if the Piscataway had the authority to give the Sundance to anyone. Fools Crow gave it to them, but could they give it to someone else? According to the people I've talked to this week, traditionally they would not be able to give the Sundance to another person unless the Elders agreed to it. In this case it would be Lakota Elders, since Fools Crow was Lakota. Were any Lakota Elders asked? Did they get their permission? I don't know.

Before any ceremony was conducted on Ute land, Ben should have gone to their Elders and Spiritual Leaders and asked their permission. This should have been done for any ceremony, not just the Sundance. One person I talked to said that because this wasn't done prior to ceremony, bad things will happen and they will continue until permission has been received from the Ute people.

Traditionally the man who leads a Sundance is called the Sundance Leader or Holy Man. Rarely are they called a Sundance Chief; usually only when ego is involved.

A Spiritual Leader is there for the people. He is not above the people, but puts himself below the people. This position comes with a great deal of responsibility. A Spiritual Leader lives for the people. One of Ben's supporters made the statement that he didn't have to answer to anyone except the Creator. According to the people I talked to, this couldn't be further from the truth. As a Spiritual Leader, Ben does have to answer to the people.

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 30, 2009, 04:01:21 am
OK , I don't know David Hill , and i'm not clear if he is recognized as someone who knows enough about these ways to give someone permission to practice them. I have enough of a clue to know he is a respected activist, but I'm not sure being an effective activist and knowing what is required to be a Spiritual leader are neccesarily the same thing . I don't mean any disrespect to David Hill , but I need to ask,  within the culture of the communities where Sundance originated is David Hill's endorsement sufficent ?

David Hill is an activist and a good man; he is not an Elder or Spiritual Leader. Again, based on the conversations I've had this past week with people knowledgeable in Lakota spirituality, Ben would need permission and endorsement from Lakota Elders and Spiritual Leaders.


Quote
Glenda Deer
Quote
You question Ben’s credentials as an Indian, a Sun dance Chief and a warrior, that is quite arrogant and shows your ignorance. Well, you met Ben and you know he is Indian, but you were trying to cast innuendos in a bad way to plant seeds of suspicion. You question whether he is a Sun Dance Chief, but are you a Sun Dancer?? Are you, Bren? And is it even any of your business? Why do you need to stick your nose in matters that you aren’t familiar with especially in regards to the spirituality of another. If you truly knew about Sun dances and their different protocols, you were speaking well out of your league.


You already know this history, again from David Hill, but did you ever investigate by calling Chief Tayac about Ben and how his son placed this honor upon Ben? Ben didn’t ask for it, and was told that he couldn’t say no. What did Ben do? He did what he was told and stepped to the front of the line to carry that altar. I bet that you also didn’t know that Ben did not ask to Sun dance..... Chief Billy Tayac told him to Sun dance and that he should have already been a Sun dancer. What did Ben do? He began Sun Dancing, why? Because he respected the Chief who told him to dance. And is that any of your business...you aren’t a Sun dancer... it isn’t. But if you thought something was wrong, why didn’t you bring it to Chief Tayac’s attention? Let them investigate if there is any truth to these so-called “valid questions”. Traditionally, you don’t go outside to an Internet site of self-appointed crusaders/puppets and begin questioning anyone. It isn’t your place....

Thank you. That information is really helpful and answers some of the main questions that were being asked.

I don't think anyone has wondered why Ben started Sundancing. The questions have been about Ben holding his own Sundance. I sure hope Ben had fulfilled his commitment at the Piscataway Sundance before he started leading his own in Colorado.


Quote
Glenda Deer
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There is over 14 pages of a thread on Ben, and not once have they come up with any proof, in spite of all the proof and leads to investigate right in front of their noses. Ben has never went and dignified their questions with an answer. Why should he? And who are the people hiding behind the fraud board that Ben should account to? No one that Ben should be accountable to. You should have called Chief Tayac, but then David already told you Ben is legit...but STIL you carry on.

As I said earlier, I find it telling that Ben came to NAFPS in April 2008 and posted two replies when Danielle was the only one questioning him. This time, when many have doubts and questions, he couldn't or wouldn't.

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.



Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 30, 2009, 04:49:39 am



 
Quote
I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on April 30, 2009, 05:15:31 am



 
Quote
I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 


This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

Ben Carnes needs to answer these questions.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on April 30, 2009, 05:03:33 pm



 
Quote
I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 


This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

Ben Carnes needs to answer these questions.

Quote
  This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

 True, but considering that his name and what he knows is a key element here, and is often mentioned in the very questions many here asked to be answered, his statements would hold a lot of weight in this discussion.

 
Quote
As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

 Well actually it's not. The Western European concept of society puts more focus on "self," then it does on the group.

 This is very much the opposite of a lot of societies, and especially Native society in which the focus is on the "group, community" etc.

 As far as the whole "thinking they are better above that" issue you bring up. That is your assumption rather then a fact.

 I know plenty of elders and people in leadership that probably would be wary of somebody just calling them out of the blue and asking a bunch of questions. I know plenty of them in person that I would be very cautious in my approach to ask them such things as to not seem disrespectful or something of that nature.

Quote
When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

 Perhaps I am reading your words here wrong, but they do seem as if you are speaking to me in a condescending manner. I certainly hope that I am wrong about that?

 I don't know what tribe or community you are from as you would not answer me the last time I asked you, but I can tell you, despite what your friends tell you that I am actually Native and do participate and am part of the Native community in my area. So I don't need to go read your post, and I do not need to receive any sort of education about anything of that sort from you.

 Sure there are certain things that a very similar in traditional communities, and you could probably make a pretty good blanket statement because of that. However this is not a community, but a website dedicated to hunt down frauds and plastic Shame- ons which is perfectly alright and fine in my opinion. Still it is just a website and nothing more, and some are simply not going to answer you because of that even if they are good people.

 Again I may have read your words incorrectly here, but it did seem as if you were being very condescending towards me, and I do not appreciate that whatsoever as you know nothing about me.

 So in the future if you want me to speak to you respectfully, then I would expect the same from you.

 For instance Moma Porcupine and me have some major differences at times when we talk and debate, but she treats me with respect and we do learn from each other. When she points something out to me she does so in such a way that I realize she is trying to make a point with me, and does not mean to be insulting towards me whatsoever.

 I feel like you are talking to me here like I am some PODIA etc, and I will not tolerate it whatsoever. If you feel the need to speak to me in such a fashion, then I would expect to know something about you so I can understand why it is you feel you have the authority to speak to me in such a way, and think that you are some how better then I.


 
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 30, 2009, 07:20:22 pm
Rattlebone, this isn't about bls926 or whether or not she may or may not have spoken to you in a condecending tone and if she did whether you may or may not have acted in a way which may or may not have deserved it. Personally I'm getting really tired of you derailing the real issues with petty personal ones which may exist only in your own imagination or interpretation of whats said.

Personally what I've seen is you repeatedly refusing to look at the real issues and dragging people into disputes that are completely beside the point inspite of having stuff repeatedly explained to you.  It seems to me if anyone is speaking to you in a condescending tone you've set that up for yourself by refusing to acknowledge the obvious and stubronly ignoring the actual issues .

I'm also noticing that you defend peoples connection / lack of a connection with a Native community if you are defending Ben's right to lead ceremonies for a mixed community but you try and discredit people by making an issue of their connection / lack of a connection to a native community if they question Ben leading ceremonies. I don't like that. It just seems manipulative .

And I have no idea what "principle" it is exactly you are so concerned about here.  Why is it you are so determined to make it personal about anybody who asks questions or gets close to trying to deal with the actual issues?

Personally i wish the mods would just ban you from this thread. Or maybe if you have to dispute people questioning what Ben's up to you could have your own thread to do so. 

The non issues you repeatedly bring to this discusion are getting really old.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on May 07, 2009, 03:31:19 am
The fact remains, even if we ignore the people who made the initial accusations, the initial questions still remain:

We don't know who supposedly made Carnes a Sundance chief, and they refuse to say.
The EMC still does ceremonies on Ute land without permission and with the opposition of elders.
EMC still has Nuagers within the group, a Nuager brought in by the Carnes themselves and doing Nuage ceremonies and supposed healing, and another Nuager promoting Nuage frauds on their website.


Those are all facts that exist independent of the people who initially accused the Carnes.



I knew that Frank Fools Crow gave Sundance to the Piscataway many years ago. They held their Sundance in Maryland up until 2005 or 2006. I've been told that Chief Tayac gave Sundance to Ben Carnes and made him a Sundance Leader. I wondered if the Piscataway had the authority to give the Sundance to anyone. Fools Crow gave it to them, but could they give it to someone else? According to the people I've talked to this week, traditionally they would not be able to give the Sundance to another person unless the Elders agreed to it. In this case it would be Lakota Elders, since Fools Crow was Lakota. Were any Lakota Elders asked? Did they get their permission? I don't know.




Glenda Deer
Quote
You question Ben’s credentials as an Indian, a Sun dance Chief and a warrior, that is quite arrogant and shows your ignorance. Well, you met Ben and you know he is Indian, but you were trying to cast innuendos in a bad way to plant seeds of suspicion. You question whether he is a Sun Dance Chief, but are you a Sun Dancer?? Are you, Bren? And is it even any of your business? Why do you need to stick your nose in matters that you aren’t familiar with especially in regards to the spirituality of another. If you truly knew about Sun dances and their different protocols, you were speaking well out of your league.


You already know this history, again from David Hill, but did you ever investigate by calling Chief Tayac about Ben and how his son placed this honor upon Ben? Ben didn’t ask for it, and was told that he couldn’t say no. What did Ben do? He did what he was told and stepped to the front of the line to carry that altar. I bet that you also didn’t know that Ben did not ask to Sun dance..... Chief Billy Tayac told him to Sun dance and that he should have already been a Sun dancer. What did Ben do? He began Sun Dancing, why? Because he respected the Chief who told him to dance. And is that any of your business...you aren’t a Sun dancer... it isn’t. But if you thought something was wrong, why didn’t you bring it to Chief Tayac’s attention? Let them investigate if there is any truth to these so-called “valid questions”. Traditionally, you don’t go outside to an Internet site of self-appointed crusaders/puppets and begin questioning anyone. It isn’t your place....


I don't think anyone has wondered why Ben started Sundancing. The questions have been about Ben holding his own Sundance. I sure hope Ben had fulfilled his commitment at the Piscataway Sundance before he started leading his own in Colorado.


Quote
Glenda Deer
Quote
There is over 14 pages of a thread on Ben, and not once have they come up with any proof, in spite of all the proof and leads to investigate right in front of their noses. Ben has never went and dignified their questions with an answer. Why should he? And who are the people hiding behind the fraud board that Ben should account to? No one that Ben should be accountable to. You should have called Chief Tayac, but then David already told you Ben is legit...but STIL you carry on.

As I said earlier, I find it telling that Ben came to NAFPS in April 2008 and posted two replies when Danielle was the only one questioning him. This time, when many have doubts and questions, he couldn't or wouldn't.

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Quoting my previous posts for context.

I thought I knew who had given the Sundance to Ben Carnes and made him a Sundance Chief; now I'm not so sure.

Cat Carnes told me about a year ago that Ben's Sundance was an extension or continuation of the Tayac Sundance; that the Tayacs had given the Sundance to Ben. Glenda Deer has stated recently that Chief Billy Tayac or his son "placed this honor upon Ben". Thought this was fact. If you can't trust a man's wife and his good friend, who can you trust?

I was told this past weekend, by a close friend of the Tayac family, that the Tayacs did not give the Sundance to Ben nor did they make him a Sundance Chief. He wouldn't say who did, but said it was not the Tayacs.

Glenda's advice to call Chief Tayac and ask him about Ben . . . Well, that didn't work out so well. Tayac refused to discuss Ben Carnes.


Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on May 07, 2009, 06:59:52 pm
good to know this bls .. thanks for this info ..

i had been given so many different stories of how, and from who, carnes had acquired the title "sundance chief" that i did not know which one, if any, of them were true .. it seemed every time someone asked about it, the answer was different, even from the carnes themselves .. .. and when asked about the discrepancies, the answer was always: call tayac .. .. when an Elder i know did call tayac, he got the same as you did .. a refusal to even discuss carnes in any way .. tayacs answer to the refusal to discuss carnes: he did not want to "talk" about a friend .. .. why? .. if carnes is indeed a friend (and i believe he is) then why would tayac not want to set things straight for carnes? .. a refusal to speak about carnes perhaps speaks volumes?  .. idk, but that is the problem here, no one knows .. .. .. ..

seems to me (and others) that someone needs to do some talking to set some things straight once and for all .. ..

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: NanticokePiney on May 08, 2009, 04:37:15 am
 Whew!!
  It took me two days, a two liter of ginger ale and half a chocolate cake to slug through this train wreck but I got a helluva education............
   
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: tachia on May 10, 2009, 08:29:26 pm
Whew!!
  It took me two days, a two liter of ginger ale and half a chocolate cake to slug through this train wreck but I got a helluva education............

lol .. no need for gas ex, tums, alka seltzer or the like? .. :)
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on June 26, 2009, 11:18:13 am
***Latest attempt by Bennie Carnes to ride the shirt tail of LPDOC, for support of his own personal agenda***

Hold on to your pocket books everyone....He'll be throwing down the donation blanket and giving his "poor, poor, woe is me, the world is out to get me" speech, next.






Thursday, June 25, 2009
July 28th: Peltier goes up for parole and I go to trial
Current mood: confident
Category: Life
My life has been interspersed with connections to dates in history, as something significant was occurring in my life, there were other significant events happening at the same time. It is going to be an interesting facet to my book.


Not many people have been aware that my home was raided by the County Sheriff and the Colorado Air National Guard last September, or that an FBI agent came to my home, a few weeks later, on the pretext of searching for the whereabouts of the number 2 man on their most wanted list. Never mind that I hadn't seen that person in 20 years! I was charged with possession of a dangerous weapon by a previous offender.


At a hearing the judge stated his displeasure that I was being charged at all. He noted that the case report indicated my last conviction was in 1981 and that there have been no felony charges in the 28 years since then until now. He said that this was repugnant to him and that if it were left up to him, he know what he would do with the case.


There are a host of other issues involved in my case, but it isn't going to be brought up at trial. Did the sheriff manufacture his probable cause in order to protect a "confidential informant" who provided false information?


Earlier in the year (2008), I wrote a blog about Standing Deer. Within a month, someone who doesn't have Internet access advised me that I should be careful. It was explained that the spirit of Standing Deer came and said that if I kept the questions about his murder alive, they would send someone after me as they did to him. I kept this information to myself until I was interviewed by Govinda and Brenda Norrell when some of the people from the Longest Walk II came to my home for ceremony and rest. http:../../..www...earthcycles...net/..journal/..index.php?56


In August, I was asked to speak on Leonard's behalf at a human rights rally during the DNC, and before the end of the month, I was asked to join the newly formed Leonard Peltier Defense Committee. I knew that I could be a targeted by the feds, but a brother needed help in rebuilding a committee and a national network. He needed 33 years of work done in a short period of time. So I agreed, expecting to be harassed, but I hadn't expected to have them come so soon and with a helicopter.


There was some other interesting revelations that leads me to suspect something isn't right, but that is something that comes with what we do. And I am not easily intimidated, nor do I buy into stupid baiting games so often found on the net. My character was attacked by a couple of nobodies who used real Indian faces to hide behind. But they have since learned the truth and moved away from them. Then next came the eviction from my home that led to months of transition that still hasn't ended.


My case will hinge on the right of a person to posses a firearm for the purpose of defending his family, home and livestock. If most people don't know, I live up in the mountains with natural predators, including the two-legged ones. When I was Iron working, I was gone for 6 days of the week, and my wife was at home alone with our daughter. I have NEVER been charged or convicted of any crimes involving the use of firearms or a crime of violence. This defense is called an affirmative defense, and this will require the prosecution to prove that the firearms were for other purposes.


I was scheduled for trial on June 23rd, but I was notified last week that my trial was postponed until July 28th. Then the very next day, we got word that Leonard's parole hearing is now the 28th.


A month ago, I felt the parole was a formality to be exhausted in order to be considered for clemency by the president. Then for 12 days, I lost phone/Internet communications,.. and then the two generators I use for power croaked. When I was finally able to get back online and catch up, I found that there was a recent court decision that caused a shake up in the parole commission, and then suddenly - Leonard's parole hearing began to take on some real meaning.


We had challenged the FBI to a public debate to resolve their misdirections (i.e., lies), but they have not accepted, and all their rumblings have become a whimper as of late, but never underestimate them. They have promised that Leonard will never walk out of prison, and we should all view this as a valid threat.


Leonard has hoped that we could get a million letters to the US Parole Commission, but time is running out. If you haven't ever wrote a letter or signed a petition for Peltier, the time is now. All letters must be received by the parole board by July 14th, or they will not be allowed for consideration:


Parole commission letter for Leonard Peltier
Your name and
Address
[date]
United States Parole Commission
5550 Friendship Blvd
Ste 420
Chevy Chase, MD 20815-7286
Re: Leonard Peltier
Dear Parole Commission:
I am contacting you to express my views and support of Leonard Peltier and his upcoming review for parole. I am a law abiding, tax payer, and concerned citizen, and feel that based upon our countries morals, integrity, and support of humanitarianism.., the matter of Leonard Peltier’s parole and release is of paramount significance.
I feel that it is relevant to point out that Leonard Peltier has been incarcerated thirty-three years based upon what our very own courts have admitted was fabricated evidence, both withheld, and then later discovered to be tampered and questionable. These very courts have admitted that Leonard Peltier did not commit the murders of the FBI agents at the Pine Ridge Reservation in 1976. It is clear Leonard Peltier was persecuted based upon his beliefs and refusal to accept the injustices imposed upon the peoples at pine ridge during that time.
Because of these facts, I feel that our system has failed, and the continued incarceration of Leonard Peltier is a sad commentary of our government and the humanitarian values we profess to have for each other.
I express a deep hope that your commission will grant parole and release to Leonard Peltier. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
[Your name]




As for me, all I ask is that when you make a prayer for Leonard on his parole day that you remember me and my family also. I haven't worked since October, and have survived upon what I can do and the support of others. We may be homeless, but we are not landless as of yet. Nor will we be, even though we are about four months behind on our payments. I believe the Creator will continue to support me in my vision for the land. We are preparing for our Sun Dance ceremony and it will feel so good to be in the midst of it. Good people and good prayers for everyone.


July 28th will be a very significant and important day for Leonard and I. Both of our freedoms are at stake. If Leonard is denied, don't lose heart or give up, just intensify your efforts because this fight isn't over until Leonard is free.


If I am convicted and imprisoned, keep the focus on Leonard, I will survive somehow. I always have.


So just keep your thoughts positive for us on July 28th, and that day may forever carry a historical meaning for many of us. For the people, they will have succeeded in bring Peltier home before his birthday, and for me the 28 years I have been involved in Peltier's case will conclude, and I will be free to carry on with my vision.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on July 20, 2009, 09:10:58 pm
Who else would start a support group, to support.....well, themselves?

http://www.myspace.com/bencarnessupportgroup
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on July 20, 2009, 09:27:28 pm
From the "Ben Carnes Support Group" page.......

".......• recipient of the 1987 State of Oklahoma Human Rights Award for advocating the rights of Native prisoners to wear their hair long.

• April 1989, organized a counter-celebration of the Oklahoma Land Run.

• Feb. 1993, testified on behalf of NAFERA (Native American Free Exercise of Religion) before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, Albuquerque, NM.

• March 1993, testified on behalf of NAFERA (Native American Free Exercise of Religion) before the House Sub-Committee on Native American Affairs, Washington, D.C.

• June 1993, Int'l Conf. on Human Rights, United Nations, Vienna, Austria

• In 1994, traveled to Columbia as a delegate of a human rights group and met with Indigenous peoples, including Indigenous politicians, activists, former guerillas, and prisoners.

• Chaplain at April 19, 1995 Oklahoma City bombsite, counseling rescue workers

• August 2001, testified in opposition to the Akaka Bill before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, Honolulu, HA.

I’ve worked with the Native American Rights Fund, Amnesty International, and the Oklahoma Department of Corrections, as a consultant to the agency and a spiritual advisor to Native prisoners. My human rights involvement has taken me to the United Nations in Austria, near the frontlines of the war in Croatia, and the mountains of politically unstable Columbia. "


Can any of this be confirmed?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on September 01, 2009, 03:01:09 am
http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=60994277&messageID=6543771882
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on September 30, 2009, 03:22:05 am
Is this to be expected, accepted or in fact even tolerated from one who would proclaim himself to be a Spiritual leader of our Peoples?
This sounds more to me as the ramblings of a mad man who has finally lifted the mask of deciet and shows his true character.

How many people, desperate to connect or find some since of belonging, will climb aboard and go down with this sinking ship?

(For clarification, all my remaining words, in this post, will be in bold font.)

http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=46622425&messageID=6563879090&hash=MIG%2fBgorBgEEAYI3WAOgoIGwMIGtBgorBgEEAYI3WAMBoIGeMIGbAgMCAAECAmYDAgIAwAQIEX1oXZqlFCYEEHtRz1y4uTDXX4nMa5t1YCUEcNT6S9FqLqiFhziuRLSmpJ3c4gm2zhB1vhNiPR4dIAtLnSbQZgxT%2b8EzPpZLTFDsOjig6gR79M6M8xf5VWg5MtMTnAb6TNYgSI%2fHOw4a9iz93D%2bQ6dc%2bc0jDgoNikEw1fSMsL71VNbceN%2fiowZi4gt0%3d


-................................................................................-................................................................................-................................................................................-------------- Bulletin Message -................................................................................-................................................................................---------------
From: Ben Carnes (113824469)
To: (192433853)
Date: 28/09/2009 18:02:07
Subject: Open Letter to my Brother, Wanbli and to everyone:


Open Letter to my Brother, Wanbli and to everyone:

Thanks so much for all that you have done. I know that we have discussed this, and I support you in your decision brother. You came in and did one hell of a remarkable job, there is no one who has a thing to say about the effort and time you gave.

I also completely understand about having the freedom to speak without repercussion to the committee or Leonard. I was in that same position after our 1999 campaign, and I wrote Leonard a letter designed to get me fired, and proceeded to prepare for an action that would have guaranteed to create worldwide publicity as never seen before. However, I was later advised that there was something working with the White House, so I stood down and called off my action.

When Clinton left the White House without signing clemency, and the details were revealed to me later, I was severely disappointed that I had not followed through. The thought about the government keeping its promises to Native people - is that it never has and why should Clinton be any different. Or Obama for that matter.

As we have discussed Wanbli, I feel the need to come from a broader approach to help not only Leonard, but Native people and others as well. It is time that we take destiny in our own hands, in a dignified manner, and let this occupying government know that we are done with being patronized, being mislead/lied to, and being used for photo ops!

Years ago, Bill Means said that in order to free the land; we must first free our minds! There is so much truth in this. We cannot go on expecting the government to do anything righteous for us, without us setting the course of action. The first step to freeing the minds is that everyone must remember that as Indigenous peoples of this hemisphere, WE HAVE NO BORDERS! The Indigenous peoples to the north and South of us are our relatives; we all speak a colonial language whether it is English, Spanish or French! Our strength is in our numbers, and those numbers can capture the attention of the world if we can come together and move forward on a hemispheric strike.

Can we organize such a strike to shut this hemisphere down? Can we shut down major transportation hubs, public utilities and can we count upon our non-Native allies to join us in this strike. It is a major sacrifice to us all if no one works, and we spend a week occupying major transportation hubs so commerce is disrupted!
It has been said that we will never get their attention until we hit them in their pocketbook. Well, it is time to see if we can amass the numbers to make this happen. It will take organization and massive coordination in different languages.

I can imagine what the governments response will be, a police/..............military one. Will they designate me as a terrorist because I am speaking about this and encouraging the thought so that we can achieve justice? Justice for Peltier, the Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiians) whose kingdom has been suppressed by the US, and the failure of the US to honor its treaties, etc.?

This government has never dealt honorably with us, and I doubt they will now. If they fear we will succeed in our efforts, they will call the tribal councils for a summit meeting to "resolve" the claims. The tribal council systems are an entity set up by the government. It is not a representation of the traditional governments that still exists.

I would like to see that the traditional leaders, headmen, clan mothers and spiritual leaders consulted and have input. These tribal council systems need to dissolve and we began exercising our sovereignty as an Independent nation and move toward reclaiming our territories.

When the term, "The Great White Father in Washington" first arose, it was a term of respect from one Chief to another. In modern times, it has become a derisive term meaning a thief and liar. Before I went to DC to do my personal fast and prayer, I wrote the comment on FB that I was going to Washington to seethe Great Black father and I wasn't taking any crumbs. Someone felt it was in ill form, I looked at it and saw that for the first time in over two hundred years this term has changed, and will the actions of "the Great Black father" be any different? It was a question. I think we now have our answer. We cannot wait until the end of his term, like Clinton asked us, because Leonard shouldn’t have to wait that long!
In this year, we supposedly have been told through a contact that Obama was going to do something, but every time the time frame promised came and went, we were given another excuse why something didn't happen. So did Obama lie to stall us, or was someone yanking our chain? It doesn’t matter now, something has been set into motion.

Everyday Leonard sits in prison for an unjust conviction is a day he will never get to spend with his family. It is another day that we cannot get the support for a major congressional investigation to look at the FBI's Counterintellig..........ence program that attacked so many organizations, and it was also the FBI who set up Coler and Williams on that day in Oglala. Their families need to hear the truth! Not the lies and propaganda by the ilk of Woods, Sennetts and the Trimbachs, including other members of the FBI.

It was two young boys with squirrel rifles that unintentionally.......... foiled their raid on the AIM camp at Oglala, by cutting off their reinforcements........... It was never a pursuit for Jimmy Eagle and a pair of cowboy boots. Not when they never actively investigated the murders of the traditional's or the AIM members. There is no way they can convince me that a pair of used cowboy boots was more important than the lives of the women and children who were murdered.

With the series of federal/state trials in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash, there will be mudslinging against Peltier, his attorney Ellison, and other members of AIM. Some former members of AIM will join the government in pointing fingers. There is something wrong when an individual who stood against a common enemy, joins them and then helps to prosecute and convict them.

What will be lacking is the name of former Special Agent David Price who told Anna Mae that if she would be dead within a year if she didn't cooperate in implicating Peltier and others in the deaths of the agents. When they found Anna Mae's body, people saw Agent Price at the scene. When they asked if they could identify the body, they were told the body was too badly decomposed to be recognizable. So "Jane Doe’s" hands were cut off from her body (mutilation) to be sent to DC for fingerprinting.

It wasn't until Ellison moved for an independent pathology because they had reason to suspect the Jane Doe was Anna Mae, that they discovered the body was still recognizable as Anna Mae. David Price knew who the Jane Doe was, but they attempted a cover-up.
The feds have always attacked the women. I've heard from a few female supporters this year that believed they have been assaulted because of their support for Peltier. David Hill has been under constant surveillance and followed all over the country, and as everyone knows, I had been facing trial, but since they never had a case, it was dismissed in July.

My prayer in DC has been one of what is it going to take to free Peltier? The answers is that it is going to require a broader approach on a wholly different level.

I was reminded about the time I went to Columbia and met with the Indigenous peoples there. They told me that they needed our support because all the policies they have affected them negatively has came from Washington, DC.

So when we say we are the caretakers of the land and we call everyone our relatives, but do nothing on a significant level to help them, what does that say about us? Are we just talking?

There is another generation behind us who say they want to revive AIM. I say let it die. It is a new energy and direction that needs to set course. We need this without the baggage and differences that exists.

The government in the 1924 American Indian Citizenship Act has confiscated our identity as Native People - First Nations People, then a few years later the Ft. Sill Apaches were granted a Presidential Pardon since it was not inherent in the 1924 Act.

Technically, we remain Prisoners Of War and are born into captivity. I did not ask to be an American whose history has been one of genocide and theft of our lands and continued oppression of the people. I have no representatives.......... who speak for me or the people in DC. It is a fallacy that we have endured and attempted to work with, but now it must end.

What is the plan you ask? First, each First Nation people who hears and reads this must decide if this what they need to do and begin discussion with their traditional leaders, only they have the right to speak and deliberate for their selves. If they are in general agreement, then it is time to meet in a great council, I would be willing to host on my land here.

We would need to extend the invitation to all Indigenous peoples from this hemisphere to attend because they have a voice also. When we can reach a consensus, then we set up on the Mall in DC with a notice sent to the President and Congress that we are coming for a meeting. Since Tipi's are transportable, we can set up a major encampment on the mall and establish an area for this government to meet with us. The historic presence of thousands of Tipi's on the Mall will have the attention of the world to see if this government is ready to deal honorably with us. One of the first points to be presented to see if the government is prepared to acknowledge our rightful place in this hemisphere is the immediate release of Leonard Peltier as a symbol of good faith. Leonard must not be a sacrificial lamb, not when millions of us have put so much into this. And that will be just the beginning to rectify years of dishonor by the U.S. government.

The rent has come due and the course of history must change. I know that when Obama made his campaign promises, he never expected this to arise. I know that he has other things on his minds, but we have been waiting for fairness and respect for 233 years!
We should also remind him that the White House sits upon the traditional lands of the Piscataway Indian Nation and that he never even considered asking traditional Chief William "Redwing" Tayac to welcome him. I sent word through a few of Obama’s campaign people – again, no sign of respect.

If they fail to meet or attempt to patronize us, then we must exercise our free will to create a just and fair society. We have to make change, we cannot continue to ask the government to do so for us. They never have and never will, so it is time they put aside world affairs and listen to us and act accordingly. The First Nations should also have a say and vote on how this country deals with others, and begin to restore the freedoms we have surrendered through our overall silence over the past 30 - 40 years.

There is much to do, and I call upon many others who we have known that have stood for Leonard to take his place and for others to come and take my place. I will not resign until I have someone capable to help Leonard and Kari in the office. The work I have set out will occupy quite a bit of my time, and it will be difficult for me to do both.

Just the work I've done for Leonard has set me way behind in land payments, my willing sacrifice for my brother has forced me to send my family to my in-laws for their safety and well-being. It has caused friends to become frighten of what the government "might" do to me to move away from associating with me so that they will believe they will be out of harms way "IF" it happens. That is there choice and their own free will. I do not demand anyone to sacrifice for Leonard or to help support me while I do this work. It has to come from people's own free will that believe in what I do.

I am not a non-profit so I cannot offer anyone a tax-........................................................deductions, nor do I want to be a NPO. Yet, I do appreciate the support that feeds me, keeps fuel in my vehicle, and whatever comes to help me keep the land I have. Others are stepping forward to do what they can to help me create a home or shelter for the coming winter. I currently live in an RV that needs some repairs to be fully functional, but it isn't going to be sufficient to keep me warm in the winter.

I've had a few critics who have attempted to discredit me and criticize me for who I am, even to the extent to say I wasn’t Indian! I expect they will begin again from this message. If they have a complaint, then they better look at what they have done for Leonard or other Indian people than sit safely behind their computer screens and spread misinformation........... Who are they really, and what have they done, except point fingers? What real sacrifices have they made? Are they helping to get the word out about what is going on at Akwesasne, the missing and murdered women in Klanada, or showing support to other Native prisoners? I don’t see it.

I carry a belief that the Creator will care for my family and myself, including the visions I have for the land I live on, and if I need to ask for help, and they want to criticize, then everyone will know them for what they are.

The Creator moves people to send me a few dollars here and there, and at times it has been just enough to get by. For what needs to be done, I will begin to need more help and support from many, I would also need some assistance from attorneys and bookkeepers if they will offer their services. I’ll need help with answering correspondences.........., logistics, and translations, along with much more.

I need to get this land paid off so it can be placed safely into a trust and to find good hearted people who may want to live here and help with organizing this hemispheric effort to change history. People who can be trusted and can work together. This land needs to be a gathering place for what needs to be done and I’ll need help.

There is a sense of urgency here because I would hate to think about what would happen if Leonard were to die in prison. I saw the rage and frustration when his parole denial was made public; I was greatly concerned for many of you when I saw what you wrote. Be careful; don't give them the tools they need to take you away from us.

I've believed the mass raids by ICE a few years ago was an exercise in coordination to see how efficiently they can move to arrest people. I am sure all of our names is on a list, and they can scoop up a lot of us overnight so that by sun rise there may not be enough of us left to mount a significant protest.

We all have families that need us, and some of us have the safety of friends and families. You know my family is away safe, and I live alone here in the mountains, but I had to say what I have because I haven't seen or heard anyone else say it. And someone needed to.

I believe our time is now and we need to spread the word to as many people as possible, because there is no way in hell I can do this by myself!

I am speaking for myself, not as a representative of the LPDOC or any organization or other First Nations, but this is from my heart and from my years of experiences that indicate it has come to this. We cannot free Peltier as a singular issue, we need to bring it all together. If we can grow our numbers quickly, it can assure our safety for the time being. The LPDOC is a non-profit, and our association in an official capacity can be a hindrance through what Wanbli has to do, and what I need to do. We are not quitting on Leonard, we are just going to step it up by having the freedom to speak truthfully.

.

In the Spirit of Total Resistance,

Ben Carnes
P.O. Box 88
Gardner, CO 81040
bencarnes@...eaglecouncil...........com




</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>








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Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”…. Ben Carnes is supposedly the “CHIEF spokesman of this group??? You’re a part of this as well too! You and those in charge of Leonard organization allow this to happen….

You allows him to destroy the years and years of work of many who supported Leonard. Many of those who supported Leonard were “Movie Stars, Judges, Members of the Law Enforcement communities, Politicians, Foreign Delegates and the list goes on.

Wichahcala you allow this Fake (Ben Carnes) to destroy all the years of hard work.

For the 1st time in history we “HAD” friends who were willing to work for Leonard release in high places….This is now gone!!!...
I for one will not be a part of this group who supports a Terrorist as Ben Carnes or anyone who does harm to our people. I have not forward messages onward to anyone.

Ben Carnes wants to do away with the many AIM organization why? Because, he couldn’t get support from them as they don’t know who Ben Carnes is.

As I stated, Ben Carnes is a convicted felon, he is a fake, a fraud and was self-appointed sun dance chief. He isn’t a chief of anything! He is a nobody! No one knows who Ben Carnes is. He resides in Colorado and yet no one knows who he is. The Denver Native community doesn’t know who Ben Carnes is as well and if they did they also say he is a fraud!

At the end of Ben letter. He goes on to ask for money to survive. Now that winter is coming. What about the other poor people who reside on Indian reservations who suffer day in and day out? They don’t have a warm house, heat to heat their home, often times going without proper food. What about these people?

Now Ben Carnes is and will be known in the Native community as a “Terrorist” And enemy of Native people as well too. We must remember, The US is also Indian Country and this is our land. We as Native people will also protect “Our Land (USA)” from those who try to destroy it. Whether it is people from foreign land, soil and even from our own which includes Ben Carnes.

Remember there were Native people who were also taken in 9/11 as well too. Many Native people lost their lives rescuing other people. We will not forget them.

A great many Native people have given their lives in the protection of the US and Indian Country and have died doing so. A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.


wicahcala

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."





</b>P.S. I have received word from good authority that Ben resigned from his position with The Leonard Peltier Defence/Offence Commitee a couple hours ago.

What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: bls926 on September 30, 2009, 12:48:03 pm
Quote
We should also remind him that the White House sits upon the traditional lands of the Piscataway Indian Nation and that he never even considered asking traditional Chief William "Redwing" Tayac to welcome him. I sent word through a few of Obama’s campaign people – again, no sign of respect.

This is ironic. Ben thinks Obama should have contacted Billy Tayac, introduced himself, and asked to be welcomed on Piscataway land. Where is Eagle Mountain located? How many years has Ben lived on Ute land? How many years has he been conducting ceremony on their land without their permission? And now he wants to organize this resistance movement on Ute land.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on September 30, 2009, 10:03:15 pm
Quote
We should also remind him that the White House sits upon the traditional lands of the Piscataway Indian Nation and that he never even considered asking traditional Chief William "Redwing" Tayac to welcome him. I sent word through a few of Obama’s campaign people – again, no sign of respect.

This is ironic. Ben thinks Obama should have contacted Billy Tayac, introduced himself, and asked to be welcomed on Piscataway land. Where is Eagle Mountain located? How many years has Ben lived on Ute land? How many years has he been conducting ceremony on their land without their permission? And now he wants to organize this resistance movement on Ute land.

 Well Ben is not living on reservation or tribal lands. It was lands ceded to the US government and opened up for settlement by anyone. Now I am not saying that I am agreeing with this, but rather it seems like you are presenting this as if Ben is on Sovereign Ute territory, which he is not.

 Now is it traditional Ute lands? Yes it is. Just like the entire western hemisphere is the traditional lands of one nation or another.

 The thing is in this situation, can you or even Kenny Frost complain when a non Indian builds a home, church, or building on such lands? The answer is no you can not unless the land contains something protected under NAGPRA or other such laws protecting remains etc. To day there really isn't a law protecting sacred sites, and that is very unfortunate. Of course if there was, then those living or operating business in places like the Black Hills etc just might have a legal problem.

 So what we have here is an Indian man being attacked for what he is legally doing on land that he owns. That is a racist double standard since if some non Indian lived there, they could do whatever they want with that land as long as it broke no laws.

  At best  what Ben did was something that some might view as disrespectful, and yet it does not warrant the words that Ben has received for this action in regards to this.

 I was taught by my elders that proper protocol in such a situation would be to go to the elder of the land you live on and ask them if you could perform a ceremony on their traditional homelands. Now they could say no, and to be respectful it would be wise not to perform them on their lands; still it would not make someone an exploiter if they ignored the wishes of those elders. In this particular case it seems Kenny Frost as so much of a personal vendetta against Ben, that I could see Kenny saying no just for that reason. That in itself would be just as much disrespect as Ben not going to him in the first place.

 Of course my viewpoints on this are based on what I was taught by elders in area, and maybe it is different for Utes since all people have different ways. Such things and different ways must even be dealt with in commercial ventures such as powwows at times, especially when the subject of women on the drum comes up.

 Still the main point here is that what Ben is doing is on private land that he owns, and when it comes down to it Kenny Frost and the Ute nation have no real say. To think they have say on what an Indian man can do on his land or not as opposed of what a NON Indian does on the same land seems to me to be a racist double standard.

 None of this proves that he is an exploiter, and quite frankly I am not even sure if this aspect of the topic even belongs in this thread because of it.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Cetan on September 30, 2009, 10:41:07 pm
Rattlebone - you stated quite nicely what I was going to post - Ben Carnes is living on private landans while Utes may say it is traditional Ute land other nations also may lay claim as part of their traditional homelands.  And how many of those who criticize him have been working for Leonards freedom, how many of them made the sacrifice to fast in Washington to bring Leonards plight to the attention of the the White House and the public?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on September 30, 2009, 10:57:34 pm





</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>








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Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”…. Ben Carnes is supposedly the “CHIEF spokesman of this group??? You’re a part of this as well too! You and those in charge of Leonard organization allow this to happen….

You allows him to destroy the years and years of work of many who supported Leonard. Many of those who supported Leonard were “Movie Stars, Judges, Members of the Law Enforcement communities, Politicians, Foreign Delegates and the list goes on.

Wichahcala you allow this Fake (Ben Carnes) to destroy all the years of hard work.

For the 1st time in history we “HAD” friends who were willing to work for Leonard release in high places….This is now gone!!!...
I for one will not be a part of this group who supports a Terrorist as Ben Carnes or anyone who does harm to our people. I have not forward messages onward to anyone.

Ben Carnes wants to do away with the many AIM organization why? Because, he couldn’t get support from them as they don’t know who Ben Carnes is.

As I stated, Ben Carnes is a convicted felon, he is a fake, a fraud and was self-appointed sun dance chief. He isn’t a chief of anything! He is a nobody! No one knows who Ben Carnes is. He resides in Colorado and yet no one knows who he is. The Denver Native community doesn’t know who Ben Carnes is as well and if they did they also say he is a fraud!

At the end of Ben letter. He goes on to ask for money to survive. Now that winter is coming. What about the other poor people who reside on Indian reservations who suffer day in and day out? They don’t have a warm house, heat to heat their home, often times going without proper food. What about these people?

Now Ben Carnes is and will be known in the Native community as a “Terrorist” And enemy of Native people as well too. We must remember, The US is also Indian Country and this is our land. We as Native people will also protect “Our Land (USA)” from those who try to destroy it. Whether it is people from foreign land, soil and even from our own which includes Ben Carnes.

Remember there were Native people who were also taken in 9/11 as well too. Many Native people lost their lives rescuing other people. We will not forget them.

A great many Native people have given their lives in the protection of the US and Indian Country and have died doing so. A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.


wicahcala

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."





</b>P.S. I have received word from good authority that Ben resigned from his position with The Leonard Peltier Defence/Offence Commitee a couple hours ago.

What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>


 This part of your post I do believe violates the rules of the moderators here. It is based not on fact, but rather on an opinion expressed by Kenny Frost and nothing more.

 In fact since it is presenting opinions as if they are facts, it is libelous in nature since Ben Carnes is not a terrorist. The opinion and accusations of Ben being a terrorist by Kenny Frost are based on Ben's own words in regards to what the feels the USG would call him for his opinions. This is not unlike what the FBI and USG has called AIM and most NDN activists.

 In fact the shutting down of commercial hubbs etc is not much different then what the so called "illegal immigrants" tried to do in their immigrants rights marches, and days when they would not buy or sell. That does not make them terrorists any more so then it does Ben Carnes.

 Therefore this part of your post is nothing but opinion by Kenny Frost being presented as fact, and is out right libelous in nature because of it.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on September 30, 2009, 11:06:40 pm
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.

Just as he does not say any thing to any one of another race for inhabiting the area.

What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.

As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.

He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.

The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.

That sentence, was also the one, among a couple others, which stuck out the most to me and also to several others whom I have spoke to since this statement from Carnes came out.

And yes, I do find it a bit ironic that Ben would complain about Obama doing something that he himself is doing.

I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."

That may not be an exact quote, but I guarantee you it were words to that exact same effect.

Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.

Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?

As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community.

Noone else is going to be out beating the bushes looking for the folks, therefor, often times it is the exploiters with whom these folks first come in contact with.

If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!

Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.

It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.

If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.

Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.



After all, he does claim to be tradish, does he not?
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on September 30, 2009, 11:21:30 pm
....... how many of those who criticize him have been working for Leonards freedom, how many of them made the sacrifice to fast in Washington to bring Leonards plight to the attention of the the White House and the public?
Now this is getting way off topic but beings you brought it up I will address it here and if the moderators so wish they can delete both posts.

As for myself and other individuals I associate with, we have supported Leonard in our own ways and through other avenues besides the LPDOC.

The reason being is because Ben Carnes was receiving and in fact using  for personal use, resources coming from that organization.

And while we do support Leonard in many ways that we don't feel needs to be publicized, we do not wish to support the personal needs or agenda of Ben Carnes.

Perhaps now that Carnes is no longer affiliated with LPDOC many former supporters may feel better about returning our support to that organization.

It is yet to be seen if this turns out to be true due to not knowing how LPDOC will proceed with the upcoming changes in leadership and representation.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on September 30, 2009, 11:25:04 pm





</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>








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Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”…. Ben Carnes is supposedly the “CHIEF spokesman of this group??? You’re a part of this as well too! You and those in charge of Leonard organization allow this to happen….

You allows him to destroy the years and years of work of many who supported Leonard. Many of those who supported Leonard were “Movie Stars, Judges, Members of the Law Enforcement communities, Politicians, Foreign Delegates and the list goes on.

Wichahcala you allow this Fake (Ben Carnes) to destroy all the years of hard work.

For the 1st time in history we “HAD” friends who were willing to work for Leonard release in high places….This is now gone!!!...
I for one will not be a part of this group who supports a Terrorist as Ben Carnes or anyone who does harm to our people. I have not forward messages onward to anyone.

Ben Carnes wants to do away with the many AIM organization why? Because, he couldn’t get support from them as they don’t know who Ben Carnes is.

As I stated, Ben Carnes is a convicted felon, he is a fake, a fraud and was self-appointed sun dance chief. He isn’t a chief of anything! He is a nobody! No one knows who Ben Carnes is. He resides in Colorado and yet no one knows who he is. The Denver Native community doesn’t know who Ben Carnes is as well and if they did they also say he is a fraud!

At the end of Ben letter. He goes on to ask for money to survive. Now that winter is coming. What about the other poor people who reside on Indian reservations who suffer day in and day out? They don’t have a warm house, heat to heat their home, often times going without proper food. What about these people?

Now Ben Carnes is and will be known in the Native community as a “Terrorist” And enemy of Native people as well too. We must remember, The US is also Indian Country and this is our land. We as Native people will also protect “Our Land (USA)” from those who try to destroy it. Whether it is people from foreign land, soil and even from our own which includes Ben Carnes.

Remember there were Native people who were also taken in 9/11 as well too. Many Native people lost their lives rescuing other people. We will not forget them.

A great many Native people have given their lives in the protection of the US and Indian Country and have died doing so. A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.


wicahcala

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."





</b>P.S. I have received word from good authority that Ben resigned from his position with The Leonard Peltier Defence/Offence Commitee a couple hours ago.

What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>


 This part of your post I do believe violates the rules of the moderators here. It is based not on fact, but rather on an opinion expressed by Kenny Frost and nothing more.

 In fact since it is presenting opinions as if they are facts, it is libelous in nature since Ben Carnes is not a terrorist. The opinion and accusations of Ben being a terrorist by Kenny Frost are based on Ben's own words in regards to what the feels the USG would call him for his opinions. This is not unlike what the FBI and USG has called AIM and most NDN activists.

 In fact the shutting down of commercial hubbs etc is not much different then what the so called "illegal immigrants" tried to do in their immigrants rights marches, and days when they would not buy or sell. That does not make them terrorists any more so then it does Ben Carnes.

 Therefore this part of your post is nothing but opinion by Kenny Frost being presented as fact, and is out right libelous in nature because of it.
Mike, I would hope that the moderators of this board are very much aware of their TOS without you reminding them, or did I miss you becoming one such moderator?

Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on September 30, 2009, 11:58:15 pm
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.

Just as he does not say any thing to any one of another race for inhabiting the area.

What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.

As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.

He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.

The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.

That sentence, was also the one, among a couple others, which stuck out the most to me and also to several others whom I have spoke to since this statement from Carnes came out.

And yes, I do find it a bit ironic that Ben would complain about Obama doing something that he himself is doing.

I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."

That may not be an exact quote, but I guarantee you it were words to that exact same effect.

Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.

Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?

As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community.

Noone else is going to be out beating the bushes looking for the folks, therefor, often times it is the exploiters with whom these folks first come in contact with.

If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!

Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.

It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.

If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.

Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.



After all, he does claim to be tradish, does he not?



   John,

 I am going to be completely civil with you here as long as you stay that way with me. As long a we can both agree to do that, then I see no reason why we can not discuss this as grown men.


 
Quote
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.


 Now you might be right in this regards, however I have read on several ocassions where Kenny complains about what Ben is doing on "Ute lands."  This goes back to what I have already said in regards to proper protocol in conducting ceremonies on the traditional lands of another person. At best I could see Ben being viewed as rude, etc. However that is as far as it goes since Ben is operating on private land.

 Do I think a traditional person should work this out with the tribes who's lands they might be conducting ceremony on? Well yes I do, but that is how I was taught and things might be different for Ben. Plus I still feel there are mitigating circumstances here that either you don't know about, not being told about etc.

 This however does not however equate to Ben being an exploiter which is what this thread is about. If there is  respect issue based on traditional things I can see somebody having an issue with that possibly. However it is being blown out of proportion here.

Quote
  What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.

 Okay in this circumstance you would almost be right, but there again are mitigating circumstance you are not realizing.

  The Sundance is not just a Ute ceremony, but is one done by many people on the plains. Now days I even know of Navajo who go into Lakota lands and Sundance with them since they have been invited to do so. As long as the elders of the people performing the Sundance are okay with Navajo in those Sundances then it is not an issue.

 Now Ben become a Sundance by way of Chief Tayac, and I do believe this all has it's roots with permission from Lakota elders. So as long as Ben has permission from them to be doing that Sundance where he lives there is no issue. There is no more issue in that then the Lakota I know in California who do Lakota style sweats on Yokut lands.

 As long as Ben has permission from Tayac and whatever elders they are all associated with, Kenny Frost has no say.

 Again it is just a possible matter of respect being given to the Ute and nothing more. Even in that I do believe there is more to this then Kenny Frost says.

 
Quote
As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.

 I have talked to Ben on  on the phone, and have never once heard him say he is the leader of the population in Colorado. Nor have I ever seen him use that in his writing ever.

 As a Sundance Chief, and spokesperson for the LPDOC he was in fact an Indian in a leadership position. There is no argument there at all, especially since he was appointed as such.

 
Quote
He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.

 Who says this exactly? Do you have any sources to prove that? As you are aware, I have known people in Colorodo AIM, and they do know who Ben is. When I spoke to them on this matter they had nothing but good words to say about Ben.

 So I would like you to come forth with more proof of this other then the words of one man (Kenny Frost)

Quote
The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.


 How so? Do you see white men asking tribal leaders to build churches or towns on their traditional lands?

 Do you ask permission to hunt on traditional lands of the people who's lands you lived on. Do you ask then permission every time you move into a new home, or build something on a certain land?

 I know you do not, and neither do I? I seriously doubt even most NDN's do that to be honest. Some may go to get the house or whatever blessed, but that is as far as it goes most the time.

 Ben is on private land, and not tribal lands. At best this is a possible matter of respect and nothing more.

Quote
I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."

 Would you care to explain to me and others here though your personal experiences with elders, spiritual leaders etc?

I don't say this to knock on you John, but I just wonder how much of this that you try to speak on is coming from things you know from personal experience.

 I am sure you can say from Kenny Frost, but that does not really count to me since that is just one man you have met recently. I want to know if you have had elders that have sat down and taught you all of these things you are speaking of. If they are Ute, then how come we never hear of them, but only of Kenny Frost?

 Plus you say you are Cherokee, but learning from Utes now is it? I don't have an issue with it, but it seems sorta hypocritical when you go after Ben for sorta similar things.

 A lot of the subject matter in this thread should come from things learned from off the net by NDN elders, spiritual leaders, members of the community etc, and not from people on the net who go only by books or what they read.

 Now I am not saying I know all of this stuff super well, but I have spoken here based on things taught to me over my life by real elders and not people met on the net.

 So I am wondering how your real world experience and knowledge fits into what you are saying???

Quote
 
Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.

I agree with you completely, but it has no bearing on this topic other then because of such things caused by the arrival of Europeans that has greatly altered the history of natives here. The bottom line is because of this, Ben is on private land and not tribal lands. It keeps this a respect issue at best.


Quote
Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?

I think I have explained all of this to you in my above replies to you John.

What is your definition of traditional anyhow? Some say you can't be when you do something like start up a car. It seems that the word traditional will get you a thousands diffrent answers sometimes. Sorta like asking the definition of what an NDN is.

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As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community 

 True, but this has nothing to do where Ben lives or holds ceremonies. The charges being levied against him here are still unproven.


 
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If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!

Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.

It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.

If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.

Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.

Most of this is just opinion on your part rather then fact, hence the usage of the word "feel" by you. In something like this you can feel many things, but what you feel does not make them so.

 This is a thread in the section "research needed," and so nothing here has been proven with no doubt to it being true or not. So most of what should be posted should be fact rather then opinion.

 Things posted like this almost seem as if they are trying to lead people on with opinions and feelings being presented as facts, when they are not.

 So I think it best not to speak of Ben or anyone put here as if they are doing what they are accused of, until it has been proven they are or not.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on October 01, 2009, 12:26:32 am
Yes Mike, I was taught by my own true Elders and continue to learn and be taught by many people from many areas and various Nations as well as different cultures.

Just as my case in regards to you, you know some things about me, but what you know would make only a drop in the bucket of what is there.

Some have come to me with respect and asked for information about me and I have been very open to them......you have not and have tried to exploit in some negative way the mear scraps of knowledge of me, as well as others, you do posses, for your own argument or spin, therefor, I will not willingly give you any personal information on myself or others.

When I post here, I do so with personal knowledge derived from spending not hours, but weeks with Ben in person, not as you have, on the phone.

Just as you can not get a full assessment of an individual on the net, neither can you on the phone.

Doesn't it seem interesting that every person posting here against Ben, knows him personally, and every person posting in support of him except perhaps some past posts by Ben's wife and Glenda Deer, will only admit to at most, speaking to him on the phone.

Where are these Denver people whom you claim know and support him?
It would be really beneficial not only in support of Carnes, but in helping other ill informed or uninformed individuals make wiser personal choices if they could hear from supporters who actually know Ben.

Unlike, some on here, I feel people have the right to make up their own mind of what to believe and I post words such as "opinion" or I feel or believe" in order to not come across as trying to inject my truth into them.

I try to provide information when I can and allow others to decide for themselves what is their truth.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: educatedindian on October 01, 2009, 12:48:11 am

</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>

http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=60994277&messageID=6563928346&hash=MIG%2fBgorBgEEAYI3WAOgoIGwMIGtBgorBgEEAYI3WAMBoIGeMIGbAgMCAAECAmYDAgIAwAQI62tb0FTddXkEEK%2fDGSEbiCu3Cos3YMS8IDIEcE4SghZkrX8nm3xl%2b44WIirdQLuftvmgdJLiKrJzRkga2AzsJJyRV93lCtxBIBoTU0Y2C2HMEH4g7wYp1PH9x7%2bksu4mCYsDEQj5OCDlDBEexn9qLIS%2bsGlH24m0ZJqE%2fam9Y1Po6o%2bxGztNGDiyEsA%3d


Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”….

A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."

...What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>


 This part of your post I do believe violates the rules of the moderators here. It is based not on fact, but rather on an opinion expressed by Kenny Frost and nothing more.

 In fact since it is presenting opinions as if they are facts, it is libelous in nature since Ben Carnes is not a terrorist. The opinion and accusations of Ben being a terrorist by Kenny Frost are based on Ben's own words in regards to what the feels the USG would call him for his opinions. This is not unlike what the FBI and USG has called AIM and most NDN activists.

 In fact the shutting down of commercial hubbs etc is not much different then what the so called "illegal immigrants" tried to do in their immigrants rights marches, and days when they would not buy or sell. That does not make them terrorists any more so then it does Ben Carnes.

 Therefore this part of your post is nothing but opinion by Kenny Frost being presented as fact, and is out right libelous in nature because of it.

Leaving in both your post and Frost's statement.

While it is certainly a very extreme statement to label Carnes a terrorist, it's much akin to those who call protesters terrorists, or AIM as terrorists. While I don't agree with it at all, I think it's a very difficult call to say if it's libelous. It's about as credible, IMO as those protesters who call Obama a Nazi or Commie. It's a crazy statement to make. But I'm not certain if it's libelous.

What we're left with is a paradox. If Carnes were to ask me to delete those parts of that statement alone that call him a terrorist, we'd have to seriously consider it. However that would also undermine the argument of Carnes supporters (that Frost is not credible or has a vendetta against Carnes) by deleting evidence of that.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Walks on October 01, 2009, 01:03:01 am
In fairness of the argument, I feel I should say that after discussing with Kenny the possibility of him posting here himself, he declined and I posted his statement without asking his permission.

Make of that what you will but as we all know, once you post in an online forum you can not claim copywrite to the words.
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: earthw7 on October 01, 2009, 07:46:20 pm
I talked with my friend Kenny last night I wonder if he knows that you all
are using his name back and forth here
Title: Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
Post by: Rattlebone on October 01, 2009, 08:21:58 pm
I talked with my friend Kenny last night I wonder if he knows that you all
are using his name back and forth here

 Well Kenny is involved in this matter even if he is not present here. Plus he has no problem posting up bulletin after bulletin making statements about people using their names, and calling them terrorists when they are not.

 So that makes him, and his words an issue in this thread.