NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 01:40:46 pm

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 01:40:46 pm
So Moma, ok...I have belonged to this site for a number of years as you know - I have seen numerous people asking you which Nation YOU belong to and as you refuse to answer this question I will assume(sweepingly) that you are in fact not native at all. Asking a person what Nation they belong to does NOT divulge identity or personal information.

Which leaves me and the rest of us to ponder this next question...what gives YOU the right to question who or what anyone does within the nations abroad or at home. And what gives YOU the right to expect answers from us? 

So, what nation are you from?

Looking forward to your answers!

PS:If anyone wants to ban me for asking a simple reasonable question..go right ahead. I wont stop asking Moma until I get an answer.I wont see any more from the Nations attacked by this person. Moma has said he/she wants this public so publc this is.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 03:06:17 pm
oh and a really silly question here for you Moma,

How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?...maybe they supply inmates with all singing,all dancing laptops these days huh?..sarcasism off! ::)

 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: educatedindian on May 08, 2008, 03:25:21 pm
I've split the topic. Try not to sidetrack other topics with these questions again. Also, since these questions have been asked of her before, don't be surprised if she's not willing to repeatedly answer the same questions.

Speaking for myself, I've spoken with her repeatedly in private IMs over the years where she's given me enough information about herself that it'd be fairly easy for me to track who she is or at least narrow it down quite a bit. But given that she's asked me to keep her confidence, I respect her wishes as I have everyone else whose asked me to keep thigs to myself. She has given me no reason to be suspicious of her or her motives. I do not always agree with her, nor she with me, and we're both fine with that.

I also sympathize with her reasons for not wanting to give out information on herself, given what's happened to me, my parents, Mike Two Horses, and others in the past who've been targeted, harassed, libeled, even received death threats. 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 04:05:44 pm
Al, I appreciate you standing up for a friend, but quite frankly it isnt just me asking these questions and no, it isnt good enough to take your word for it. A few private IM's and just enough info wont tell you exactly who MP is with all respect and we are not asking for this.

If she doesnt have the respect to answer what nation she is from then how can any of us have the respect to answer her very often probing questions.

We ALL have at some point been threatened/harassed so that as an excuse doesnt go down.

So...back to my question.

What Nation?...as I said before stating what nation you are from does not divulge personal information.   
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Tsisqua on May 08, 2008, 05:22:44 pm
With respect...Im actually interested in hearing what nation Moma Porcupine is from since myself and my co workers were called into question and asked for personal information from Moma Porcupine....when I stated it was not safe to give out this info and I would not put others at risk by doing so due to threats...and the fact that many of us had small children...this was unacceptable to Moma Porcupine....and our refusal was used to 'try' to show us in a bad light....yet when I asked Moma Porcupine for her own info...it was declined....and from back dated postings across the board...many others have also asked....to no avail.

I DID however have the decency to say what nation I am from and also my co workers....as why would this be a big secret?......it is nothing to be ashamed of and it causes no personal threat or danger...so yes I too would like to know.

I was raised to believe that what is good for one...is good for another...there are no double standards.

With respect,

Tsissy


Added; http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 08, 2008, 05:25:49 pm
Al I can respect the fact that she told you certain things in confidence,I have no intention of violating that confidence that exists between you both,but the reality is this,you've lost some members and a sizable number all indian,are no longer prepared to put up with her cross examining them as though they were personaly responsible for every fraud taking place in the world,yet consistently avoiding any question about her own attitude.Theres not one rule for her and another for everyone else,you don't need me to point out how wrong that is.Its time she lost the excuses and sorted her manners out,its a sad fact that those of us who are working our asses off on both sides of the pond are taking note of just how many get bogged down with her endless,personal and un neccessary questioning.and heres the thing Al,they are all Indian,go figure that huh?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: LittleOldMan on May 08, 2008, 08:04:26 pm
Question please. .  If you agree that it is wrong to steal, corrupt, or use Native Ceremony for monetary or social gain and that you would like to assist in the fight against this practice,why, I do not understand then what difference your BQ matters or for that matter which, if any, Nation Claims you.  This board by putting questionable people and organizations to be researched offer a valuable service so that when we encounter this type of bravo/sierra we will be more able to countermand it.  Evidence the way this grandmother drum stuff is being taken care of.  What am I missing?  "LittleOldMan" 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 08:40:16 pm
Hi Littleoldman...nice to meet you!

The question is not of BQ at all, the question raised is of someone - Moma - questioning those of the indian nations pointed and sometimes - maybe without meaning to be - offensive questions about their profesionalism,integrity and objectives. Also where she has repeatedly avoided on purpose answering a simple question - that of what nation she comes from. She deamns to know it of other people so why should she keep hers a secret from all here.

The point is, if indeed Moma is not native - what right has she got to question the nations especially when most on here work their ass's off to expose frauds.

I hope that answers your questions.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: LittleOldMan on May 08, 2008, 09:00:13 pm
Crazyeagle.  If I understand you correctly the premise of the forum is not in question.  It is the way in which she interacts with others here.  As an aside I always have a box ,a large box, of Morton's salt sitting beside my keyboard I never attack a person only their opinions.  I have learned from past mistakes mine own as wall as others.  I am as always ready to stand in the gap when necessary.  Thanks again "LittleOldMan"
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: wredgranny on May 08, 2008, 10:47:41 pm

 Siyo all,I too do not believe in "attacking" persons,but that exactly what this "moma porcupine" does,and it is ALWAYS those of Native Peoples. IF she will NOT tell her Nation,then she have NO RIGHT to HAVE an OPINION on the Nations,fake,fraud,or real,she should speak ONLY on Euro issues,as she/he is Euro and proves repeatedly this is so. The ONE thing we have left is our Nations,and ALL Native Peoples are proud of that blood,no matter how much or how little,carded or no,one says with pride their Nation. Her/his "excuse" of "threats",and fear is rediculuse,any REAL Native People fight those every day of their lives. What make her/him any better than US? She/he DEMANDS we tell ours,who we are,where we are,and by what right do we speak,so now "moma porcupine" it is time,put up,or butt out of issues you have NO right to open mouth about! Educated Indian,I thought better of you,than to allow such disrespect to be shown my Peoples,on a board SUPPOSED to be helping them,once you cared about such things,and now you let this "one" he/she/it,to treat us so badly? If this is what NAFPS has become,there are many,many in my Circle who need to know to no longer trust this place as Native Peoples are being shown more injustice,not help. And oh,my,yes,my Circle is long,and wide,and covers many,many of our Nations,including those who CAN spread the word far and wide. It is time one MORE fake/fraud be fought,her/his name is "moma porcupine"
blessings granny
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 09, 2008, 04:30:09 am
I guess that I should first explain to people reading this that this discusion carries over from the link below . I suggested a new thread to talk about "me", as people keep using this to try to distract from the topic of the thread which was a group claiming to be a tribe which is friends with the people upset with me , for questioning their legitimacy   ;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1735.0;all

Myself from that thread
Quote
I just see this as a red herring . As far as I am aware , I have not made any claims about myself that need verification. If I have made claims that seem questionable, or if in any way something I have said that you can quote seems to undermine recognition and respect for Native identities, culture or soverienty , you are welcome to start a thread on me in research needed. However... if you have no substantial concerns, it would be better if you stopped trying to pull this thread off topic by trying to make it about me. Unless you want to focus on some specific concerns, I probably won't have much more to say about these unwarrented demands and attacks.

I will try to reply to some of this, but it would have been helpful if people had accompanied their comments with quotes showing what specific thing I said they found so disagreeable ...

crazyeagle
Quote
I will assume(sweepingly) that you are in fact not native at all. Asking a person what Nation they belong to does NOT divulge identity or personal information.

Assume what you want.

What good would it do if i told you something about myself that might give me more credibility in your eyes , and I didn't give enough information to verify any of it. Then I would really be a hypocrite when I asked people to verify their claims about themselves and I could rightly be criticized for this hypocrisy.    Maintaining the integrity of my position seesm a lot more important than trying to impress people on line .

My background is not impressive, but then niether is the back ground of some of the people you all seem to accept and defend as Chiefs of Nations...   Something I find both ironic and a bit amusing...
( and I'm not indirectly making any claims about myself ... who knows if some of them are even a bit of Native descent )

crazyeagle
Quote
Which leaves me and the rest of us to ponder this next question...what gives YOU the right to question who or what anyone does within the nations abroad or at home. And what gives YOU the right to expect answers from us?

I totally agree that what a person does within their own Nation is between themselves their own Nation and the Creator, but if what people are doing relies on an non native audience for support, it is a whole different situation, and as a general principal i think non native people do need to take a role in confronting these problems. 

Irregardless of my racial origins, i have many times been told i have good communication skills. So I use them here, in service of something I care about.

Are you saying that nobody can ask questions or determine if someone who is Native is being exploitive or decietful unless they have a higher BQ than the person who is being decietful > i wasn't aware there was a BQ requirement for telling the truth... or expecting this from others ...

This board alllows people who are entirely non native to ask questions. You never objected to that until I began asking questions of some of your friends. Are you saying Europeans should not be allowed to ask any questions of people claiming to be Indians , even if it can be shown recognized traditional leaders have objected to the sort of activities these native people are doing?

If so , how exactly do you expect European people to avoid supporting frauds and cultural exploiters?

crazyeagle
Quote
How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?

I actually didn't , but i can't send him a letter asking about Zoi as Zoi suggested and remain anonymous, so I was trying to think how I could take Zoi up on this suggestion.

crazyeagle
Quote
If she doesnt have the respect to answer what nation she is from then how can any of us have the respect to answer her very often probing questions.

We ALL have at some point been threatened/harassed so that as an excuse doesnt go down.

Could you quote exactly what you are refering to along with the link to the right page and reply number. You may have felt threatened because i ask questions which highlite when people are inconsistent and being not completelty honest in what they are claiming . if you feel threatened by that that is probably your own fault.

 Tsisqua
Quote
when I stated it was not safe to give out this info and I would not put others at risk by doing so due to threats...and the fact that many of us had small children...this was unacceptable to Moma Porcupine....and our refusal was used to 'try' to show us in a bad light...

Tsisqua this is just not true. What is supposedly your real name is posted on the other NAFPS board last december , and you participated in that discussion and never objected to it being there. Out of respect for you I never mentioned this inconsistency but I think you need to stop playing the drama queen about how unsafe it would be for you to explain who you are . It just seems dishonest and manipulative.

The conversation where all that came up is here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/356 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/356)

Tsisqua
Quote
I DID however have the decency to say what nation I am from and also my co workers....as why would this be a big secret?......it is nothing to be ashamed of and it causes no personal threat or danger...so yes I too would like to know.

So what - all that information is totally unverifiable.... Sorry if I fail to be impressed by claims that can't be verified.

zoi lightfoot
Quote
you've lost some members and a sizable number all indian,

Who are you talking about specifically? What were they doing that I commented on?

zoi lightfoot
Quote
Theres not one rule for her and another for everyone else,
No but apparently there is one rule for you and your friends and another for everyone else...

crazyeagle
Quote
The question is not of BQ at all, the question raised is of someone - Moma - questioning those of the indian nations pointed and sometimes - maybe without meaning to be - offensive questions about their profesionalism,integrity and objectives.
I question when people make claims that gain the public trust which may not be true.

crazyeagle
Quote
what right has she got to question the nations especially when most on here work their ass's off to expose frauds.

One thing I want to point out is that not everyone who does some Native activism is trustworthy or truly working in a consistent way towards Native rights . Larry Sampson is just one of many examples of people who use sensitive issues to grandstand and promote - themselves - often distracting from and undermining the work of other activists.

wredgranny
Quote
Siyo all,I too do not believe in "attacking" persons,but that exactly what this "moma porcupine" does,and it is ALWAYS those of Native Peoples.

Wredgranny ... You have posted here 12 times now and in every post except one you have posted to attack me , personally... and you say I am supposed to be more respectful... Whatever... ( roll eyes) The true Elders i know treat people with respect even if they don't deserve it . They don't go around demanding it from others. As you do. Believe me if you are not impressed with me i am less impressed with you. But oh well... The world needs us all for something and i don't hold it against you .
   
Could you please provide some quotes to show what you are calling "attacking" and a link to the webpage and the reply number.

I go after the truth in all situations and some of the people i have tried to hold accountable have been Native. So what?

wredgranny
Quote
IF she will NOT tell her Nation,then she have NO RIGHT to HAVE an OPINION on the Nations,fake,fraud,or real,she should speak ONLY on Euro issues,as she/he is Euro and proves repeatedly this is so.

LOL wredgranny your previous posts displaying your imagined psychic abilities have me sure you have 0 credibility ...

wredgranny
Quote
The ONE thing we have left is our Nations,and ALL Native Peoples are proud of that blood,no matter how much or how little,carded or no,one says with pride their Nation. Her/his "excuse" of "threats",and fear is rediculuse,any REAL Native People fight those every day of their lives. What make her/him any better than US?

You don't know my circumstances and it is my decision what to tell about myself. Lots of people post here anonymously or are Europeans but you aren't protesting that, only me and i guess it that have a working crap detector... and I'm good at expressing what it is showing me . As far as i can tell that is the whole basis of your complaint about me . Sorry but I don't feel sympathetic...

wredgranny
Quote
She/he DEMANDS we tell ours,who we are,where we are,and by what right do we speak,so now "moma porcupine" it is time,put up,or butt out of issues you have NO right to open mouth about!

For the last time, show me a claim I have made about myself that would gain me some position of public trust which cannot be verified .  I have made no such claim . However if I named a Nation or Nations I had some sort of connection with , and did so anonymously and that gained more public trust, I would be doing the very thing I object to in others, and then I really could be criticized for hypocriscy . So go ahead and believe I am an obnoixious European... I don't mean to be rude but I have to tell you wredgranny that you haven't come across as the kind of person that I generally care what you think ...

wredgranny
Quote
Educated Indian,I thought better of you,than to allow such disrespect to be shown my Peoples,on a board SUPPOSED to be helping them,once you cared about such things,and now you let this "one" he/she/it,to treat us so badly?

Want to provide some specific examples of what you imagine is me treating people badly? Again quotes, links and reply numbers are really a help ...

It seems to me it is you who is doing the attacking... and being disrespectful ...

Quote
And oh,my,yes,my Circle is long,and wide,and covers many,many of our Nations,including those who CAN spread the word far and wide. It is time one MORE fake/fraud be fought,her/his name is "moma porcupine"

I don't think I deserve that and accusing me falsely might backfire on you, but I'm not concerned. People need to learn to think skeptically and not believe everything someone posing as an elder in cyberspace claims .

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on May 09, 2008, 04:43:17 am
I think this is the craziest thread NAFPS has ever seen. Moma has given no one a reason to accuse her of being a fraud. She doesn't make accusations, but raises questions. She's already done quite a bit of research before she even brings a group or individual to Research Needed. What difference does it make what Nation she belongs to or whether she's Native or non? Several of you are sounding really stupid with your posturing about if she isn't Native she needs to stay out of Native issues. You don't need a CDIB or enrollment card to know the difference between what's real and what isn't. Many people are working together on the Grandmother Drum issue, both Indian and non. Some of those who have done the most are white. Should they have just stayed out of it? That's ridiculous. Crazy thing is, the ones making the loudest noise here are newbies, people who have been here only a matter of weeks. Maybe y'all need to keep quiet, read the threads, and see how things get done around here. NAFPS is an excellent source of information.

Granny, where'd you get the idea Moma didn't know who Leonard Peltier is? Where did she disrespect him? I think you've got your panties in a bunch over nothing.

And the veiled threats to Al? Indian Country knows the value of this site; knows the work NAFPS has done to expose fakes and frauds.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: matt e on May 09, 2008, 07:46:13 am
I have spent time reading around the board, not always logged in. moma p has made a great contribution to this board.
 
   Yes, sometimes some of her posts come across as an attack, or accusatory. I do not believe she means them that way.
 
  She gives her opinion based on info she has received or found online that seems to her as contradictory, and asks for the input of others. based on the way she usually presents these questions, i believe she is asking to clarify, not to attack or malign anyone.

  It is human nature to fight back when it seems that someone is attacking you or someone close to you. both sides are right, it would hurt nothing for moma p to say which, if any, tribe she is affiliated with.
  Anyone stating that they are a professional of any kind, legal, mental health, doctor, etc. online should not take it as an attack if someone tries to look them up and can't find them online, then asks questions about what kind of professional they are.
 Just saying you are part of a group of professionals doesn't help. A brain surgeon and a heart specialists are both doctors, but I would put more weight behind the opinion of the heart specialist in a discussion of keeping the heart healthy.
   when someone criticizes us, take a moment to see if there is any basis for it, did we say or do something that came across wrong? are we doing something offensive without realizing it?
     As for perceived or actual accusations against someone who we consider a friend, perhaps instead of allowing ourselves to immediately become defensive(a natural reaction) we should look at what the person is saying to see if our friend is doing something that just comes across in a negative way, or if maybe they are doing something wrong, that they may not even realize so we can inform them of how they come across, or inform them of the wrong they are doing.
   
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Tsisqua on May 09, 2008, 09:11:50 am
Quote
Tsisqua this is just not true. What is supposedly your real name is posted on the other NAFPS board last december , and you participated in that discussion and never objected to it being there. Out of respect for you I never mentioned this inconsistency but I think you need to stop playing the drama queen about how unsafe it would be for you to explain who you are . It just seems dishonest and manipulative.

The conversation where all that came up is here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/356

No...Im sorry Moma Porcupine...but you are wrong.

Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting (Which I incidently found while googling my nick name out of curiosity one day)...TO CLEAR the matter up as people posting there were pulling up the name Tsisqua from across the net....wondering if I am 'this Tsisqua' or 'that Tsisqua'... Tsisqua is a commonly used name it seems and the people they had pulled up were women of all ages, all locations, various personal interests etc (Of which you can see from the thread you happily provided) but not one of them me as I do not put my own personal info on the net...which I have clearly stated in the past....and I explained to Frederica who I am...I am certain I still have the email I sent if needed.....So with respect, my real name as you say, has NEVER been posted anywhere on the net....and yes you are correct....I have not objected not even in my mail to Frederica...as it has NEVER actually happened....so there was no inconsistancy, no dishonesty and no manipulation as you have wrongly stated, but you would love for others to believe there was eh. Frederica also stated on the 'Tsisqua and Moma Porcupine' thread that the questioning from you was nothing personal...but clearly...this is personal.

From NAFPS Yahoo group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/388

Quote
Re: who is Tsisqua?

Tsisqua....being the Cherokee word for 'Bird' is nothing more than a
nick name...hence many people use it on the net...I even googled it
myself just to see how many people were using it...which is how I
located this posting a while back... :)

Im not 44...lol...or 35...Im 33 (Dang trying to make me look
old...lol sheeeshhh), Ive never lived in TN, but I have lived in
AZ...Phoenix (about 9 years ago), and I am not on the net claiming to
be someone I am not...as I have said in NAFPS...Im just a humble ndn
women who is sick and tired of fakes, Im not here to say 'ooooohhhhh
look at meeeeeee!'...yet I too understand the need to check into
members etc as I do it myself with NAU...

Just to clear up though....Im not a member of any New Age
site...twinkie site...well...we at NAU did recently join RNS but it's
difficult to read the twinkie postings of the ooooooh so many fakes
there 'without' being a member and drawing them in before exposing
them...so I guess that's 'my bad' on our part...lol

I joined Tribal America for good reasons...and left too for good
reasons...as Im sure you have all come to realize by the posting in
NAFPS forum...

But anything anyone wishes to know...just ask me..I dont bite...well
not unless asked nicely... :)

Our NAU email address is:

NativeAmericanUnity_Office@yahoo.com

Our NAU Site address is:

http://www.freewebs.com/americanunitymovement/

Our NAU MySpace is:

http://www.myspace.com/nativeamericanunity

So no harm done...actually made me smile :)

With respect,

Tsissy

Also... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/390

Quote
Re: [nafps] Re: who is Tsisqua?


It was settled a while back, she is who she says she
is. We will still occasionaly check when it comes up,
you don't realise how many bears, redhawks, and
greywolves there are, till you start looking.
frederica

Moma Porcupine...you label me a Drama Queen, dishonest and manipulative by not wanting to give out my real name and address to you on demand? I fail to see how you have that right since you TOO refuse to give out your own information....would that not indeed make you the very same? Why is it you think you can bully others into submission when you yourself take great care with the information you give out? You said in the past since you are not running a website etc...you do not have to varify who you are....but since you call other native people into question here, and ask them for varification of who they are, surely you can see how others would wonder at your own credibility and varification? I mean no disrespect here...but no one has asked you to varify who you are, you have not been asked for your name, address, nothing probing (Not like you asked of me and our staff members)...just one question was asked...what nation are you from...but again...you've used it as a means to attack others on the board with disrespectful comments.

When there are a horde of fakes and frauds out there....this kind of thing seems futile and pathetic...playing a game of 'sh*t flicking' amongst ourselves shouldnt be our main focus here...and its not what I come here for...but when accusations are made on a public forum...people have the right to respond....yet when they do....they are labelled. There should be no double standards amongst posters and members here....95% of all people here come and participate for good reason...the other 5% come to feed from the negativity we have between ourselves...and we're feeding them huge portions of that eh.

With respect,

Tsissy

(Edited for spelling error and to add from NAFPS's Yahoo group) Tsissy
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 09, 2008, 01:00:44 pm
Moma P..

Once again you have avoided answering a direct question,what is so hard about answering that question?

You waffle on about how the Nations NEED Europeans to help us out in exposing frauds..huh?...it is wonderful to be sure that Europeans help out with the goodness of their hearts  and I have as you may expect many european friends/african/west indian etc etc etc... but then they are open and tell me/us that they are not native,they are german or english or whatever nationality unlike yourself.

AND to repeat myself which I am getting a little weary of doing so..THIS isnt about BQ...so why you bring it up I dont know.

Good communication skills dont equate good people skills,something which you are sorely lacking with the indian people on here.

I dont want your personal history,none of us do..simply answer the simple question please(I was brought up well)

What is YOUR nation - everyone else here is open about their nation and YOU make sure of that with your demands for an intro,pointed explanations of who they are,where they are from,how do they justify themselves despite you not being admin. Unfair wouldnt you say?

So...What is YOUR Nation...simple answer will do without all the cuts and pastes. I am quite lazy and hate having to scroll down or up all the time through the waffle.

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 09, 2008, 01:04:11 pm
Tsisqua
Quote
Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting (Which I incidently found while googling my nick name out of curiosity one day)...

Tsisqua, the first post I recall you making is here 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0)

See the date

 Tribal America
« on: December 22, 2007, 04:08:58 pm

The first question in this inquiry "Who is Tsisqua is dated ;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/355 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/355)

Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 pm

How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 and write to Frederica many weeks BEFORE you even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who you are , once you saw the above posting   when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

If this is a misunderstanding I'm sorry , but considering the information that is there , and that you corrected some other speculation but never said it was incorrect and considering that Frederica who posted that, then went on to say you are who you say you are, all these factors , if this is a mistake on my part , would make this an honest one.

A couple other thoughts occur to me and one is that I don't think it is correct to reffer to individuals of Native descent as "Nations". It sounds extremely pompuous.


This whole idea of people claiming their Nation if they aren't enrolled in a federally recognized tribe and their Nation doesn't claim them seems really obnoxious and would often cause tribes to feel hostile towards the people making these claims. I am always suprised when people make claims or do things which would cause them to become alienated from the very People they want to claim ....  Even if sme people a Nation claim someone if other people don't why risk making people upset and making claims tha might become a divisive ifactor i the community?
Thanks BLS and Matt and Al and others for your words and efforts to keep this communication in balance . I don't mean to drag anyone else into this. I do have a tendancy to put people on the spot and I relize this and I guess some hostility is to be expected.  I  have a working crap dector and i do have well considered reasons for what I do .

One reason is , this board would loose all it's credibility and the Elders supported here could also be discredited if NAFPS, if  members are accusing people of being frauds but defending and protecting friends who do the same thing. Which is why I can be so adamant about Keeping It Clean. 

 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Tsisqua on May 09, 2008, 01:09:52 pm
Quote
Tsisqua, the first post I recall you making is here 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1439.0

See the date

 Tribal America
« on: December 22, 2007, 04:08:58 pm

The first question in this inquiry "Who is Tsisqua is dated ;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/355

Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 pm

How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 "before you joined NAFPS " when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

And now please see....

Quote
Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting

YAHOO GROUP....do you see where it says that? Yes...so do I...I did not state "Before I joined the NAFPS Forum...but the Yahoo Group. Thank you.

Added note;

Since you have edited your posting at an attempt to still discredit me I will respond.


Quote
How did you find that discussion which started on Dec 23 and write to Frederica many weeks BEFORE you even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who you are , once you saw the above posting   when your first post is dated Dec 22 ?

Again...I will go through this and make it as easy as possible for those who do not understand.

One day...I googled the name 'Tsisqua' and came across the posting in NAFPS yahoo group entitled 'Who is Tsisqua'.

I read the NAFPS yahoo group forum...which had been posted AFTER my first posting regarding Tribal America which was posted HERE on the NAFPS Forum.

I sent an email to Frederica...and received a response....of which I am sure Frederica can confirm if need be....although I have the emails also.

Many weeks later....I joined the NAFPS Yahoo group, I am sure admin can give you the correct date, time etc.

I posted on the thread 'Who is Tsisqua' on March 10th at 7.32am 2008 (Which I am almost 100% certain was my first posting on the day I joined the NAFPS yahoo group)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/388

Now I will search through my emails to locate the exact date of my email to Frederica...which as I said...was many weeks before...and I shall post this for your viewing pleasure....unless of course Frederica can confirm the date the email was sent.

Have we done now? Or is there something else you'd like to throw at me?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 09, 2008, 01:24:55 pm
opps
I edited my post without seeing your reply ... I wasn't meaning to do that after you replied... 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 09, 2008, 01:41:12 pm
Ok Moma you have determined /implied that I am not trustworthy enough to PM,so here we go.
Firstly the nature of my exact relationship or connection to Leonard Peltier is something I HAVE NEVER personaly stated in public and it would be a very wise person to actualy check I physicaly made a comment before they go accussing me of anything.
Second as you seem to have skipped that in your rush to chop and paste endless out of context quotes and attempts to give gravitas to your conclusions without merit,right or basis.YES I AM LEGALLY QUALIFIED.was that clear enough for you?
Yes writing to Leonard Peltier would involve telling him who you are (your version at least)Or do you expect him to just accept the anon ramblings and accusations against someone he knows well?Or are you worried he will be up front and send your letter to me for comment and then I will know who you say you are?
Your reputation for challanging Indian members of the Napfs site and non indians too it sadly has to be said,preceeds you and sadly Napfs reputation and what it attempts to do.
You state that everyone should not be above question,fine,who are you and what qualifies you to determine who is or is not Indian?You are as open to questioning from Indian peoples as you subject them to.Last time I looked our nations had not authorized one moma porcupine to determine this for them.You are straying and taking Napfs into dangerous territory mah ee quay.Hunting frauds and presenting your evidences to the relative Nations is one thing,presuming to question legitimate members of the Indian Nations in the offensive and extreemly volitile manner you do is acting like some self appointed policeman for the indian nations.That is not your business or concern to involve yourself in.
Lastly,Larry Nicholes has documentation I have never felt the need or concern to question,he is Indian,and therefore a member of the International Intertribal community don't go reading non existant personal assumptions into the fact INDIAN peoples out here have determined that I am their legal director and will be until they replace me with someone younger or better for the job.Unless you prove to me he is not Indian then that status and the status of IIC members is not your place to question.
as an afterthought,in writing to Leonard maybe you should ask him which legally qualified person protects his copyright out here for him.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 09, 2008, 01:48:35 pm
Ps Granny more than happy for you to raise this with Gwarth ee Lass
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: educatedindian on May 09, 2008, 02:10:44 pm
Like BLS pointed out, claiming someone has no right to speak in here, or speak on the subject of exploiters, or on groups claiming to be tribes, if they are not NDN is ridiculous. Ironically it's something that exploiters themselves frequently use to shout down critics.

Would that mean only someone Black could say slavery is wrong? That only someone Jewish could say Hitler was evil? Nonsense.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 09, 2008, 02:19:44 pm
With respect Al, I dont think anyone was saying that at all, unless you just wanted to reiterate a point BLS said.

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 09, 2008, 02:44:39 pm
I think everyone makes mistakes, at least I do. And it's a good thing to have these pointed out, as you can learn from them.  But when we start the badgering and just decide to declare waron ourselves, it makes us look weak. We have so many Wolves, Hawks, Davy Crocketts on this forum, I have no idea who they are. Only if they tell me. Some post, some do not. The NAFPS Forum introduction states it just wants people who are interested in helping. Not interested in who they are.  So, I not sure why we are fighting about this when no one knows to begin with. The personal stuff is not worth the time or effort. Everyone has good points and bad. Utilize the good. The rest is so distracting.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 09, 2008, 02:57:58 pm
Agree with you Frederica but when you have Moma P demanding intros and information about members whether they be of the nations or not and a lot of it is personal or leads to personal then the site cant have one rule for one and one rule for another. 
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 09, 2008, 03:00:29 pm
Bingo! Frederica yes its distracting,disruptive and a royal pain in the ass to know you have a mountain of work to do and some one just will not stop harranging or answer their own question put right back to the,while we've all been at this how many of you have actualy got anything done?
Bls please tell me,what threats veiled or otherwise have been made by myself or any other directly towards Al,Al is not the topic here is he moma?Or are you telling me that even Al is above question?not that I have reason to so don't go jumping on that,but that was the problem in the first place was it not?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 09, 2008, 06:50:15 pm
Zoi Posted on: Today at 06:41:12 am
Quote
Firstly the nature of my exact relationship or connection to Leonard Peltier is something I HAVE NEVER personaly stated in public and it would be a very wise person to actualy check I physicaly made a comment before they go accussing me of anything.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.msg8363#msg8363 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.msg8363#msg8363)
 
Quote
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK
« on: November 02, 2007, 07:52:14 am » 

Statement from Zoi Lightfoot – Director of Legal Affairs – Treaty House London UK

An Explanation of who Zoi Lightfoot is:

Zoi Lightfoot is enrolled Anishinaabe. She is Leonard Peltiers Cousin and she also is a lawyer who works for Native Rights in the UN and lives in London UK. Zoi Lightfoot is also recognized by the Women Title Holders of the Mohawk Nation.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I accused you of anything, to do with your relationship with Leonard Peltier. I was not even that skeptical of this claim. Lots of people have cousins ...

Though I am now pointing out your recent statement of never claiming a relationship with Leonard Peltier in public seems to be incorrect...

You sugested I write Mr Peltier... everything Isaid was simply a response to your suggestion.

But I do wonder how Mr Peltier would feel about you using his name as a seeming reference, when you are defending a group like the Blackwater Muskogee calling themself a tribe , and seemingly using his name and your connectin with him to discourage people from asking from obvious questions about their legitimacy . I doubt Leonard Peltier would imagine he has the right to recognize a group of distant descendants of the Muskogee , as a tribe.

In my opinion, that right belongs to the federally recognized Muskogee .

I think we disagree on enough real issues that it would be better if we could stick with those , and I think part of this disagreement is hearing things in our own minds that aren't actually being said. 

I just did this myself when I misunderstood Tsisqua when I didn't notice that she said the Yahoo NAFPS. I was muti tasking and distracted, and now I read through it again I see I misunderstood what was being said.

One thing I did notice is there seems to be a real person who is Theresa Courtney , and she was taking begining Cherokee language classes with the Red Nation society .

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Teresa+Courtney+%22+Cherokee&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

I think the page may have been removed but it still comes up in the google search...

I'm not sure how Frederica came to believe ths person is Tsisqua, and being bond by confidentiality she may not be able to say, but if Tsisqua would truely be endangered if she was identified, wrongly saying someone else is Tsisqua could endanger Theresa Courteney.

Maybe this should be corrected so no one is wrongly defamed or put in danger. 

I think there is already threads on the substantive issues where we disagree , and if people have something to say on any of the issues I am sure their input would be stimulating , But beyond this it seems fruitless to try and continue this debate...   As far as i can see most of this is just being used to distract from the real issues and legitmate questions .

anonymous posters
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=706.0

the role of non natives in confronting exploiters
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1105.0;all

Questionable tribes and Indian idenities
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

PODIAS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

Advice for critics of NAFPS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: crazyeagle on May 09, 2008, 07:22:53 pm
Moma P..once again i have noted you have persistantly ignored answering my question and persist in pursuing others of the nations some of whom Ihave known for many years.

I persist...what nation are you from....and I warn you..I will not desist until I have an answer which many of the nations are waiting with abate breath for an answer. Personnaly I believe you are avoiding answering this simple straight forward question as this will then explain your attitude in attacking those of the nations. 

Oh..and you misunderstood - deliberately I beleive as you seem to be an intelligent person - my statement about being attacked.

I was referring to Al Carrol's statement which referenced to being attacked outside of the forum due to your personal activit9es which I have no interest in at all.

I want to know what Nation you are from and what gives you the right to attack others from the nations as you so clearly are doing on this forum.

Clearly if you were from the nations you would answer this simple question with a simple reply.....give you a clue..such and such a nation..there that didnt hurt did it!

What Nation Moma P....is easy! Surely you will not be so rude as to not answer..hmmmmmm?????????

     

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Tsisqua on May 09, 2008, 08:23:08 pm
Regarding Theresa Courtney and the following:

Quote
I'm not sure how Frederica came to believe ths person is Tsisqua, and being bond by confidentiality she may not be able to say

I presume a google search was done of the name Tsisqua, and this woman is one of the people who uses the nick name? Perhaps Frederica could clear this up?

Also...my own email to Frederica explaining who I am...came after the postings of speculation on NAFPS forum...and then when I joined and posted my own words...of which I have already posted in my last entry...Frederica stated

Quote
Re: [nafps] Re: who is Tsisqua?


It was settled a while back, she is who she says she
is. We will still occasionaly check when it comes up,
you don't realise how many bears, redhawks, and
greywolves there are, till you start looking.
frederica

So just to clear this up once more...I am not Theresa Courtney, I have no information posted on the internet stating my real name, and I also believe a google search was carried out, and the findings were posted at that time...which I have no issue with. If you read the whole post....I clearly state that I am not this woman, nor any of the other women found through the google search...which puts no other person in any danger...but then...you only have my word for it eh...and generally...that means nothing here. But please, read the whole thread on the NAFPS Forum.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: educatedindian on May 09, 2008, 08:49:35 pm
It's become pretty clear that we basically have several people, angry at any question being asked of them at all, who instead choose to badger, get angry, and get petty at one person who asked them those questions. Most of this is, in someone else's words, the most ridiculous thread that there has ever been at NAFPS.

I'm going to lock this thread for three days to give some of you time to both cool and off and frankly, learn to grow up. The angrier you get, the worse you wind up looking, no matter the rightness or wrongness of what you say. And if the same anger and pettiness continues after I unlock the thread, then you'll be required to take it entirely to private emails. We have lots of other good and important work that this is a petty distraction from.

And no, you can't sidetrack other threads with this either. Any posts that do will be deleted quickly.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ric_Richardson on May 14, 2008, 03:42:13 pm
Tansi;

As one who has been the subject of some of M Porcupine's attention, I feel that I should put my own opinion in this thread.

In my Culture, there is a way that we have of "talking around" something.  This is common and is very useful in different ways, such as describing a situation without having to ask for assistance, or in many other ways. 

In my attempts to describe modern realities of our Aboriginal peoples, in my region and of efforts to create ways of sustaining Traditional knowledge at the same time as living in a modern society, which includes the use of money, I was challenged, by M Porcupine in a very disrespectful manner.  Issues that this person brought up included this individual finding it laughable that Aboriginal people freely shared the knowledge of the use of corn and potatoes with non-natives, without benefitting from this.  Corn is used in ceremony, but is common in the marketplace, as well.  When She/He learned of our plans to use Blueberries, as one of our planned market products, MP supported this product, so I can only assume that He/She did not know that Blueberries are a very important component of many of our ceremonial feasts, in our region.

I also took personal offense in the manner in which He/She spoke of suicide, which has impacted all of our communities, including when my own brother committed suicide, in the next room to my mother.  As a neice of mine (my late brother's youngest daughter) also took her life at age 16, I have more than a "book learned" connection to this issue. 

In including references to the illegal drug trade in a discussion about legally selling products that come from our Traditional knowledge and local natural resources, I was offended by the attempt to bring this connection into what I had hoped would be a respectful dialogue.

When I stated that many of our Aboriginal politicians supported the development of a Non Timber Forest Product industry, She/He mentioned that many of our politicians are accused of corruption.  As I had previously stated that I held elected office, within the Metis Nation, Saskatchewan, and have a great deal of Respect for many Aboriginal politicians, both Metis and First Nation, I was personally offended by this suggestion.

This individual seems very good at finding information on the internet, but much of our Cultural ways are not posted there and must be learned by living in the Culture.  There is information about many things, on the internet, and caution should be used, especially since much of the information posted, is able to be used to support either side of any argument or debate.  I considered leaving this forum, but after discussing this individual with some of the forum's administration, chose to remain, in order to use this potentially valuable resource and contribute, when I can offer something, that affects me or that I have knowledge of. 

I continue to hope that Respect, the most important lesson of Life, as I was taught, can be a guiding principle of any debate held here. 

With Respect
Ric
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 15, 2008, 04:02:00 am
Ric , as I have said before , I'm sorry if our different understandings and concerns offended you . I already acknowledged this in another thread.

My first post in this forum was on the subject of the sale of sage and sweet grass. You joined in this discussion, to present a different point of view. When I began this thread i had no idea you had plans to sell this as a business. So my concerns about this had nothing at all to do with "you" . IMO if anyone was personally attacked in this thread it was me

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=580.0;all

When you started a thread on your business , I will admit my question asking if this was a fancy way of selling sweetgrass, was rude , but in the discussion in the above thread, the only thing that you talked about specifically, was selling sweetgrass, so it was an honest misunderstanding . When you explained what you were doing, I agreed most of what you planned to sell sounded entirely positive.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=877.0
   
The next discussion we had I asked a bunch of questions trying to clarify how it should be decided what parts of cultural traditions can be sold if people that culture belongs to don't agree.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=412.0;all

To discredit me, you are putting meaning into what was said that was not there. Whether you honestly heard this in your own mind or whether you are just twisting my words into he ugliest possible interpretation to make me look bad I won't bother guessing ,  but I do feel you are misrepresenting what I said.   

Why? I have shown ample proof in on line links there really is many traditional people who believe sage and sweetgrass should not be sold. I am not just making this up . Why do I deserve to be criticized and attacked by you for remembering these teachings?

I did not learn this on the internet, as you keep trying to suggest to further discredit me, but I did try to find references to this on the internet as I don't expect anyone to just take my word for this.

Not once have you acknowledged that there are many traditional people and Elders who are uncomfortable to see this being sold.

Instead, you have posted here 123 times , mainly talking about integrating traditional knowledge with a modern economy . Sometimes you announce to the world you are Metis and occaisionally you say someone else isn't. Sometimes you contribute a helpful piece of local information. In response to my direct questions about where you draw the line on the issue of selling something some traditional people say should not be sold, you have assured me that you don't ever believe ceremonies should be commercialize.

I'm not saying I don't find what you contribute here helpful, and except for our personal dispute you seem like a nice enough person , but I do notice that in all of these 123 posts only once do i see where you have felt to say anything that might be interpreted as opposing people selling ceremonies , teachings or Medicines.  ( except in response to me directly asking where you stand )

This comment can be found here;

"But people never donate enough"
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2006, 11:13:02 am »    
Ric
Quote
Tansi;

When my Grandmother would be asked to provide her special form of assistance, the people asking for help would send a buggy to pick her up and take her to where she was needed.  When she arrived, and until she was finished, she was fed and given a place to sleep and work.  Afterwards, she was returned to her home, with Gifts that would help to provide for her daily needs.

In modern terms, this can be translated as transportation, meals and accommodation as well as something for her time, experience and knowledge.

In Saskatchewan, there are a number of First Nation communities who provide finances for Traditional Healers to come to their communities to work with their particular Gifts. At some of these, medical forms are required for payment and the term "health practitioner" is crossed off, and replaced with "Traditional Healer."  Many of the people attending will also give gifts to the Healers, often including money, as well as blankets, tobacco and other items.

These are some of the ways that our First Nations communities are dealing with the modern realities, which include the need for money to provide for the needs of those who they consider Gifted with Traditional Healing Ways.
From your behavior I am guessing your main interest in being here is exploring how to integrate traditional knowledge into a modren economy, and I also understand you have an interest in Native people retaining the right to do this for their own benifit .

For the most part I really respect your position, and i am willing to believe you honestly want what you see as best for your community. But I also have the right to bring attention to the traditional people who feel uncomfortable by the sale of some of the things you want to include in your buisness plans , and I shouldn't have to have my words or motives twisted into something ugly for doing this .

You talk about how I have offended you. Do you have any idea how offensive your continued attack on me for remebering teachings I recieved from Elders could be, if I was inclined to take offence?  The thing is, I'm not. We are all here to exchange ideas and learn, and i don't see the point.

On the internet I try to speak clearly and address the issues. In real life I am usually much less direct. I just don't see the point in beating around the bush on the issues we are trying to discuss here in cyberspace.

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: earthw7 on May 15, 2008, 02:11:28 pm
I really feel at a loss here!

Maybe it is spring fever

Moma porcupine
I hope that you will continue your work
to help the people.

In life we find that people tend to attack their own
when they are stressed.

I am not saying who is right or wrong in this post
but it makes me sad that we would attack our own members.

Are we going to become like those messages board that just
attack each other or does this site have meaning?

I for one I am proud to a member of this site and honored to know
all of you.

Oh and this blackwater groups looks like frauds to me
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ric_Richardson on May 15, 2008, 03:09:24 pm
Tansi;

My post was meant to be a Respectful way of encouraging the use of Respect, overall, in discussions held here.  As this thread was about an individual who is good at doing internet research, this research should be balanced with Life experience and I hoped to encourage the use of Respect, to balance the valuable research undertaken.

My own life experiences influence everything that I speak of and many of these have much to do with having been active for several decades, in working toward ensuring that Cultural sustainability is a part of any progress, especially when we are becoming more involved with the modern society.

I, originally only PM'd two of the administrators of this forum with my concerns about this anonomous individual, but when it was suggested that I put my opinion, which I truly felt was done in a Respectful manner, in the thread on M Porcupine, I did.

Not living in or near cities, there is only so much that I see of the frauds that are exposed here, but I have met some, so contributed in sharing my own experiences with some of them.  Since I do see that there are some who use the name of my Culture, in committing fraudulent activity, I have tried to show the facts of who we are, as people of the Metis Nation. 

I also agree with earth7, in encouraging the very important work of exposing frauds, but with Respect. 

Ric

 

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 15, 2008, 06:49:33 pm
Part of the problem is probably using a computer to disagree.  You cannot see the other person, and only have to rely on words on a page.  From what I remember it was a split-decision, as people could see both sides. It went on a little to long, but that's just me. I don't think it was disrespectful, but it would never be settled, as far as both had their own ideas.  I thought Rick's, his elders, and community would do the right thing. The rest was just one trying to convince the other. Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. I wouldn't take it personal, people can only control themselves, not others. And opinions are just opinions they can change like everything else. I can see both sides, but there is so many variables no one will come out a  complete winner in that type of discussion.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 15, 2008, 07:28:21 pm
One thing about cyberspace is that we don't know each other or see what peoples relationship is with their community. If this could be seen a lot of questions that get asked here would be unnecesary, and concerns would be discussed with Elders who would take care of it. I can see the type of questions that get asked here would be really disrespectful if they were asked in this way of a person who could be seen to be respected in a Native community , but on line there are hundreds of people making claims of this, and the only way people can verify this is by asking direct questions.

I think we all do our best, and probably most of us have areas we don't see as clearly as we could, and sometimes maybe we make mistakes. I know I certainly do. One of the things I appreciate about this message board, is that it provides many different points of view and gives us all a opprotunity to consider this. Circumstances and traditions are different in different places , and there is often no clear agreement on how traditional culture can survive in a modren world. Sometimes these disagreements are a bit intense. But I think the conversations that happen here are educational and informative and that is all for the good.

I do feel for people like Ric, who post under their real name, as I can see that when something is controversial having your own role in this examined would feel a lot more intense. I will try to be more sensitive to that in the future. At the same time, when people post here , and their activities are controversial i think it is important that we can discuss that . Even if we can't reach an agreement it probably helps the people who read the discussions here to understand why sometimes there seems to be different opinions on things. I really believe that  informed people are probably are better equiped to make healthy choices, even if things are sometimes not black and white.

I really appreciate all the voices here, even the ones I disagree with most intensly , and I really appreciate that the moderators have been patient with all this.  I don't mean to create divisions.

I don't know if Al has kids, but if he does, I imagine after this message board he will be ready for teenagers.  LOL
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 15, 2008, 07:36:08 pm
We're all human, we disagree and agree, wouldn't it be boring if we were all alike and thought the same.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ric_Richardson on May 18, 2008, 02:09:40 pm
Tansi;

As a person who was raised to be Proud of who I am, I was taught that, if I have an opinion, I would only weaken and demean that opinion if I only wrote anonomous letters or made anonomous statements.  This is the reason that I chose to use the name that my parents chose for me, when I post in this forum.

The reason that I came to this forum, is that I have an interest in what I have seen in activities surrounding the promotion and sharing of our Cultures, which has been the subject of various fraudulent activities by a number of people, both in North America and overseas. 

In general, I support the activities of many who post here, anonomously or otherwise, as there is often a common goal of identifying and exposing some very serious frauds, who continue to promote stereotyping or even more dangerous activities.  I do not feel qualified to speak about issues that I do not have a personal connection to, so I do tend to mainly speak about situations that I have been involved with and Metis identity and the abuse of the term "Metis" when it is used by those with no connection to our people, but by people who use this term in attempts to gain credibility for activities that do not help our people, but that may allow others to assume a false impression about the Metis.  As I do have very solid connections to other Aboriginal people, both Status and non-status, with my own family as well as those not related to me, I will also contribute to discussions related to things that I have seen or experienced, in this context.

I do know that, even if someone were to gather all of the things written about me, on the internet, they would still not have a very good understanding of who I am.  Most of what has been written about me was not written by me and often there are misquotes or other inaccurate information, as is common with the written word. 

I do not avoid debate, but encourage this to be done in a Respectful manner.  I was taught that the only people who are not controversial are those who do nothing.

Ric



Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on May 27, 2008, 03:20:03 pm
I've heard a rumor that MP is 1/2 Hidatsa
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 27, 2008, 04:11:35 pm
mmmm I heard a rumor I am a pasty white complexioned teenager in Kentucky. Supposedly my acne is so bad I never go out of my Mom's basemnet ...

And there is another rumor that i am a middle aged European with a bad attitude and a big mouth.

On a more serious note, on line it's impossible to know who people are, or what peoples personal circumstances are, but some people would be truely endangered by having identifying information posted on the web. Unless people post information on line about themselves, or there is good reason to believe someone is a serious danger to the public, it probably isn't a good idea to decide it is OK to put personal inforamtion out there for them. As for my own situation, whether I would actually be harmed if i was identified is hard to say, but , I honestly would not feel safe to have anything posted about me that I did not put on line about myself. So I would ask that people don't assume it is OK to do this irregardless of my own wishes , just because they find me annoying

If someone guesses wrong it just spreads silly rumors and if someone guesses right it could truely endanger me.

As i don't make any claims that need to be verified, and I don't link what I do here to any other activities websites, projects,  products or services that involve the public trust, and as an anonymous person , except for what happens publicly on NAFPS as Moma_porcupine ,  I don't peronally gain anything from posting, I don't see what public benefit might come from guessing who I am or spreading rumors.

For this reason I would ask that Kevin remove the rumor / speculation about my identity from his comment.

I'm just someone who has been impacted in some way or ways by what is discussed here , and apparently i have rather a lot to say about it ...

Probably sometimes it is a bit more than people want to read ...
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 27, 2008, 04:36:09 pm
Everyone must be bored from the weekend. Trying to get something started.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: ska on May 27, 2008, 05:26:19 pm
Rumor-mongering?  OK, here's one .

I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations.  Being gifted with a bulls--t detector, she has chosen to use her powers of discernment for good, not evil.

ska
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 27, 2008, 05:45:04 pm
Ska
Quote
I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations. 

Noooo  ...  don't tell me I'm not really a Porcupine ...How can you know that for sure .. I bet you are just one of those mean people who enjoys running over Porcupines and making them flat as a pancake ...

And then I bet you stop and point and say " See not a Porcupine at all- too flat"

Mean mean mean ...

LOL

No I'm not bored today ...



Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 27, 2008, 06:06:50 pm
No Moma, Figured  Kevins just trying to be funny.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: ska on May 27, 2008, 08:16:39 pm
"I've heard Moma Porcupine is from one of the  human nations"

Okay, moma, you've outed me.  I've been running with a bad crowd - academics!  And you know what humanists they are, hence my rush to assume your anthropomorphic form ;).



Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Defend the Sacred on May 27, 2008, 10:58:35 pm
Moma is a flying porcupine who shoots lasers from her eyes, scanning the Internet for evil-doers while mere humanoid lifeforms sleep.

What?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 27, 2008, 11:12:26 pm
While flying uses a large blue cape with a big red MP on the back.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Cetan on May 28, 2008, 02:04:34 am
!
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 28, 2008, 03:20:15 am
It's not, trying to start the rumor is.  I guess Kevin has too much time on his hands.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on May 28, 2008, 01:53:29 pm
At least she is not claiming to be 3/16th Cherokee like Ward Churchill was quoted as saying one time. You have to admit, Momma Porcupine sounds better than Mother Goose and another rumor I heard was that she has some enlightened Anglo mixed in with the Hidatsa blood. We could maybe interrogate her a bit about that.

I'll make the challenge: I triple dog dare you MP to tell us how much Anglo you have running in them veins of yours! Men don't back down from double or triple dog dares but I'm not so sure about women.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ingeborg on May 28, 2008, 02:14:28 pm
Please stop this, Kevin. The boards are not for childish dares, playing games, or starting rumours. Neither are they a place to leave marks up the trees by adding two-liners to numerous threads.

I don't have to reinforce that MP never claimed ndn or ndn descent, it's all here to read. If you happen to be bored then, how about playing hopscotch for a while.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on May 28, 2008, 03:30:34 pm
I thought it was a serious discussion - I'm not of the EA (enlightened anglo) tribe myself and that's about as much as I want to disclose. I haven't  yet attained rumor status here though I aspire to such and I may even take up being an Indian later in life or at least buy an adoption and get a good red road moniker for myself. I proposed Dances With Badgers but that didn't cut it with the crowd that's on hand here.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 28, 2008, 04:14:40 pm
Okay Kevin that's enough. If someone wishes to remain an unknown that is their right, for whatever reasons they have. You should at least respect this. If you have something to contribute to the forum fine, if not find somewhere else to play.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on May 28, 2008, 04:38:28 pm
Thank you, frederica. He ignored Ingeborg's request. No, actually he just took her request and made a joke out of it, continuing to abuse this forum. Maybe he'll listen to you.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 29, 2008, 02:51:19 am
Sorry ...I think I got him going with my Porcupine jokes ...

Kevin , it seems humor only works when it is something used sparingly in relation to serious topics. When it's funny funny funny every word of every sentence - it isn't funny- it just seems silly and kind of oblivious , especially when people tell you to tone it down and you don't listen.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on May 29, 2008, 02:46:47 pm
I'm glad some of you women are protecting me from myself - somebody had to step up to the plate on this matter.

I think MP could at least tell us whether or not she is a Veteran
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 29, 2008, 03:33:36 pm
Okay Kevin, since you don't listen, tell me what organization you are fronting for? What's your agenda?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on May 29, 2008, 04:16:01 pm
You got me - I'm with the PBCA (pioneer bone collecters assc)  - we dig up pioneer finger bones and make them into chokers to sell at traditional pow-wows.  My outfit specializes on them pioneers that went West during the gold rush - some fell off wagons and mules ran over them, others the Indians  shot for tresspassing, others croaked from disease, it don't matter, they are a hot item and militants buy them right up, at a fair price of course. We're coming soon with a line of pioneer shin bones to be used for paper weights and conversation pieces for them upscale folks in high rise  office buildings still wearing their hair long. Like I said when I introduced myself, I'm nothing but a man and Veteran who believes in fair treatment of all people. You don't impress me Frederica as the type of woman who would be good with a pick and shovel, so please don't PM me for any details on my outfit. Thankyou. Look for me soon at one of them brush arbor pow-wows where they ain't speaking much English - you can't miss my booth.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: frederica on May 29, 2008, 04:48:09 pm
That's about what I expected. So I lock the thread.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Found on June 27, 2008, 04:59:33 pm
I hope my post gets posted. It seems to be a fine thing to go after frauds, and I applaud the valid research many of you have done and continue to do so. But it is another to go after each other. It is like hunting for food. It is fine to go hunt something other than yourself but when you start to eat yourself because you are hungry there is definitely a problem.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on June 27, 2008, 05:55:19 pm
I hope my post gets posted. It seems to be a fine thing to go after frauds, and I applaud the valid research many of you have done and continue to do so. But it is another to go after each other. It is like hunting for food. It is fine to go hunt something other than yourself but when you start to eat yourself because you are hungry there is definitely a problem.

This is kind of a presumptuous statement from someone who just joined our group today. Take some time and read thru at least a few of the threads here, before you pass judgement.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Found on June 27, 2008, 06:21:39 pm
I have spent the last year or so reading through all these threads. I simply made a comment. The thing I have seen here is this petty quarreling when there is so much good that has been done.

I do not criticize another's opinion and I ask the same repsect from you.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: MikePutfus on June 27, 2008, 07:55:12 pm
Where I come from Federica it's an insult to ask information like this from a person. Yet it is something we do when we introduce our self's. I think it's to see if we are related in some way. Out side our cycle we give little information out because it's often stolen and used. So I limit that inforation like I'm sure you do as well.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: MikePutfus on June 27, 2008, 08:01:21 pm
oh and a really silly question here for you Moma,

How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?...maybe they supply inmates with all singing,all dancing laptops these days huh?..sarcasism off! ::)

 

For your information they have computers they are allowed to use. I have emailed Leonard Peltier and written to him before. As well as others that are n jail or prison.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: MikePutfus on June 27, 2008, 08:10:17 pm
You got me - I'm with the PBCA (pioneer bone collecters assc)  - we dig up pioneer finger bones and make them into chokers to sell at traditional pow-wows.  My outfit specializes on them pioneers that went West during the gold rush - some fell off wagons and mules ran over them, others the Indians  shot for tresspassing, others croaked from disease, it don't matter, they are a hot item and militants buy them right up, at a fair price of course. We're coming soon with a line of pioneer shin bones to be used for paper weights and conversation pieces for them upscale folks in high rise  office buildings still wearing their hair long. Like I said when I introduced myself, I'm nothing but a man and Veteran who believes in fair treatment of all people. You don't impress me Frederica as the type of woman who would be good with a pick and shovel, so please don't PM me for any details on my outfit. Thankyou. Look for me soon at one of them brush arbor pow-wows where they ain't speaking much English - you can't miss my booth.

I think you will find very few pot hunters on this board Kevin, and those that show up at our Gatherings are run off or arrested.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 27, 2008, 11:16:21 pm
I hope my post gets posted. It seems to be a fine thing to go after frauds, and I applaud the valid research many of you have done and continue to do so. But it is another to go after each other. It is like hunting for food. It is fine to go hunt something other than yourself but when you start to eat yourself because you are hungry there is definitely a problem.

Disagreements happen even when people have a lot in common , and as long as people do their best to tell the truth , and be polite, I think thats OK. Some of the issues discussed here are really complex and can go to the heart of how peoples define their idenitiy. Even if the discussions can get on the passionate side, it's probably good that they happen, and that we force each other to consider things from a different angle.

Exploitation and fraud create problems no matter if the person doing this is a friend or stranger, and i don't agree that these problems should only be addressed if we don't like the person creating them. That approach would not be fair. I also don't think we have to disagree with everything someone is doing, before anything can be said about something specific someone is doing. Using an analogy, it's like if someone was active in their community opposing violence against women, that  wouldn't mean it's OK if this same person beats their dog. I also don't think that just because someone denounces people who sell ceremonies that gives them a right to exploit another aspect of the culture or some watered down aspect of their own heritage.

So yes sometimes stuff comes up and people who are members of NAFPS and doing good things in some areas do get questioned and other NAFPS members may strongly disagree with what they are doing. Calling that "going after our own" sounds very melodramatic. I honestly have never seen any member of NAFPS eat another human being . But it does sound like a cause for concern when said in that way.  :)

Personally i don't mind if people want to disagree with something i say... As long as it is something I actually said...

From a thread you posted in earlier today...
 Henry Niese
« Reply #8   
found
Quote
(begins...)  it did not seem polite to ask directly when I was guest.

Asking is necessary if we are going to avoid supporting frauds, and as long as people support them, there will be people tempted to take advantage. If someone is trustworthy they will understand why you are asking and shouldn't feel offended. If they are offended, IMO that in itself is a BIG red flag.

MikePutfus
Quote
Where I come from Federica it's an insult to ask information like this from a person. Yet it is something we do when we introduce our self's
.

Hi Mike... I guess relationships on the internet is kind of different than real life and it can be hard to find a balance between maintaining a degree of personal privacy or anonymousness, and when that turns into making claims that can't be verified that involve the public trust.  If we all knew each other in a real life Native community , our community would inform us if what someone was claiming was untrue.  On line, or in the New Age market place, direct questions are often necessary if people don't want to support people making fraudulent claims ....  As you can see people here don't always agree on where that balance is, or how best to go about this.

But in my opinion all discussion is good ...
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: MikePutfus on June 28, 2008, 04:32:39 am

Hi Mike... I guess relationships on the internet is kind of different than real life and it can be hard to find a balance between maintaining a degree of personal privacy or anonymousness, and when that turns into making claims that can't be verified that involve the public trust.  If we all knew each other in a real life Native community , our community would inform us if what someone was claiming was untrue.  On line, or in the New Age market place, direct questions are often necessary if people don't want to support people making fraudulent claims ....  As you can see people here don't always agree on where that balance is, or how best to go about this.

But in my opinion all discussion is good ...
[/quote]

I went into a shop that said Native American Arts in Saint Petersburg, Fl.. I asked the clerk if the owner was around after she told me of his background. He claimed he was White Mountian like my self. As he wasn't there, and I left a short message for him Using my Tribal name saying I would be asking a friend (Dallas) who happened to be the Chairman of our Tribe at the time if he knew of him. I wish I could remember the guys name now, but I don't. My daughter and I went back the next weekend, and the shop was empty. I don't know if it comes with age or just meeting so many fakes, but at times a little feeling comes over you that something just isn't right. Talking to someone on line, and face to face tends to be the same for me. Yes that does mean I have been taken in by some, but I feel it's worth it in the long run.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Kevin on July 10, 2008, 03:30:26 pm
Mr. Putfus, I assure you me and my outfit are not "pot hunters" - we simply believe in cultural equity. One man's artifact is another man's item of apparel as my old Granny used to say. The designated PR person of my crew has come up with an idea to target Indians attending colleges throughout the land with some jewerly I doubt they could pass by, using a Green theme for the main sales pitch. We are planning to have some high-end brochures printed. The merchandise pics are state of the art, high tech stuff. We are hashing out the wording then we'll hit the streets, so to speak.

I've put forth this sales pitch to put on the brochure"
" Is that lovely lady you are so interested in not impressed with your new car? Isn't she smiling at you at all? Try wowing her with one of our chokers: certified pre-1700 Pilgrim finger bones, polished to a high gloss with sterling silver spacers, strung on organically raised groundhog gut string. Strut right up to her and tell her in a manly tone, "I've gone green, baby" and tap that stunning choker around your neck with your finger. She'll be in your arms on the second date or your money back. "

Whataya' think??
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: NDN_Outlaw on October 22, 2009, 06:59:07 pm
It's fair ball to ask what NDN Nation someone is from. From my experience it's usually the second question NDN people ask after meeting each other. Example: What is your name? Answer Buffalo Bob. Question: Are you related to the Bobs from Khakawistahow or Pasqua.? and/ or Do you know old Mary Bob? Does she still go to Bingo at her age? and so on. It's a ritual greeting. In this instance it could also be a wedge attack. Looking for an opening an opportunity to attack someone. For my part Porcupine is alright with me. She's sharp as a quill and has the cultural moxie to munch a bunch of frauds anywhere any time.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on October 23, 2009, 03:43:02 am
Re-reading this thread sure brought back memories. Crazyeagle (Linda Lou Flewin), Zoi Lightfoot, Tsisqua (real name unknown), and wredgranny (Sheila Williams) . . . All attacking Moma because she wouldn't say what Nation she's from. Moma said something to the effect that what would it prove if she named a Nation, to give herself credibility, and didn't give any information that would substantiate it? Nothing would be gained from this. Nothing would be proven. And what about these four women who were causing such a ruckus? Linda Lou claims to be a Mi'kmaq Scoop Kid. It's been shown that she isn't Mi'kmaq or a Scoop Kid. Zoi Lightfoot claims to be Anishnabe from Red Lake. She isn't enrolled with Red Lake or any other Ojibwe reservation. Tsisqua claims to be Keetoowah. Correspondence with the UKB proved that's a lie. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder. She's a 50 year-old blonde. These women may have Indian ancestors, but none are enrolled. No Nation claims any of them.

For more about these women and how they were exposed, refer to:

Welcome & News
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

Member Introductions
Tsisqua

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=838

Etcetera
WRedGranny Spreading Lies on Other Websites

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1751.0
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com on October 23, 2009, 11:34:54 am
Re-reading this thread sure brought back memories. Crazyeagle (Linda Lou Flewin), Zoi Lightfoot, Tsisqua (real name unknown), and wredgranny (Sheila Williams) . . . All attacking Moma because she wouldn't say what Nation she's from. Moma said something to the effect that what would it prove if she named a Nation, to give herself credibility, and didn't give any information that would substantiate it? Nothing would be gained from this. Nothing would be proven. And what about these four women who were causing such a ruckus? Linda Lou claims to be a Mi'kmaq Scoop Kid. It's been shown that she isn't Mi'kmaq or a Scoop Kid. Zoi Lightfoot claims to be Anishnabe from Red Lake. She isn't enrolled with Red Lake or any other Ojibwe reservation. Tsisqua claims to be Keetoowah. Correspondence with the UKB proved that's a lie. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder. She's a 50 year-old blonde. These women may have Indian ancestors, but none are enrolled. No Nation claims any of them.

For more about these women and how they were exposed, refer to:

Welcome & News
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

Member Introductions
Tsisqua

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=838

Etcetera
WRedGranny Spreading Lies on Other Websites

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1751.0

Now Now bls... Not all NDN's are enrolled, and not all NDN's fit the "standard" look of NDN-ness. But I have to agree with you. What difference does it make whether you "claim" a nation or not, it does not nor will it "legitimize" you. I for one have some blonde in my hair.......OK so my hair looks like a skunk on crack, dark brown, blonde { gray actually } a lot of very light brown. And that's because I thought Mizz Clairol was mah friend! MaMa P has NOTHING to prove to anyone. Unless she is sitting here defending the actions of the ones that we are all here trying to stop, and I haven't seen that happen yet. So, anyone can claim anything but it does not necessarily make it so. Not to create drama here but I have to ask. Are you saying that If your NOT enrolled, that it makes you "less" NDN??? Sheila Williams claimed to be a Cherokee Elder??? Then the statement I have for that is........"Why the hell is she on the internet doing everything she can to prove to people sitting behind a monitor that she's an NDN?"  I am what I am, enrolled or not, and I don't have anything to prove to anyone because the only person it matters to, already knows the truth. I don't sit in judgement of anyone because that is not my job, Let them claim whatever they like......The truth ALWAYS reveals itself.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on October 23, 2009, 12:37:33 pm
No, being enrolled doesn't make you more Indian; neither does the fact that you're blonde rule out the possibility that you are. The point I was trying to make was that these four women made claims about themselves that were proven false. Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou Flewin have Treaty House, supposedly an American Indian Embassy in London. Although only a Myspace and Yahoo Group, they raise money under false pretences. They're a couple of pretendians with a fake embassy. Tsisqua, who stated over and over that she's enrolled Keetoowah, runs Native American Unity, a website trying to influence people's perception of Indians. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder with psychic powers who writes poetry.

Moma has never claimed to be anything. She hasn't set herself up with an organization that tries to influence the way people think. She doesn't try to raise money. She isn't writing and publishing works as an American Indian.

Therein lies the difference.

If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com on October 23, 2009, 02:43:36 pm
No, being enrolled doesn't make you more Indian; neither does the fact that you're blonde rule out the possibility that you are. The point I was trying to make was that these four women made claims about themselves that were proven false. Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou Flewin have Treaty House, supposedly an American Indian Embassy in London. Although only a Myspace and Yahoo Group, they raise money under false pretences. They're a couple of pretendians with a fake embassy. Tsisqua, who stated over and over that she's enrolled Keetoowah, runs Native American Unity, a website trying to influence people's perception of Indians. Sheila Williams claims to be a Cherokee Elder with psychic powers who writes poetry.

Moma has never claimed to be anything. She hasn't set herself up with an organization that tries to influence the way people think. She doesn't try to raise money. She isn't writing and publishing works as an American Indian.

Therein lies the difference.

If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.


LOL You don't have to convince Me.......I agree with You!! ;D
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on October 23, 2009, 03:52:14 pm
Hi NDN Outlaw . Thanks for the supportive words ...

NDN Outlaw
Quote
It's fair ball to ask what NDN Nation someone is from. From my experience it's usually the second question NDN people ask after meeting each other. Example: What is your name? Answer Buffalo Bob. Question: Are you related to the Bobs from Khakawistahow or Pasqua.? and/ or Do you know old Mary Bob? Does she still go to Bingo at her age? and so on. It's a ritual greeting.

That would be a problem if I was also trying to remain anonymous - especially if I had a good reason for doing so.

It's not that I wouldn't be happy to introduce myself , and I would even enjoy doing this , it's just if I am vague and only give partial information , it would be easy for people to misread that. If I provide enough information to avoid misrepresnting myself, there would be enough information for people who know me to identify me.  So it seems either I am willing to tell all, or it's better to just keep my mouth entirely shut . ( For me this is not easy, believe me )

Bonnie , thanks for sticking up for me , yet again - though this time it seems like NDN Outlaw was just making a reasonable comment - probably without having read through all the history .... ( enough to give anyone a major headache)
 
bls926
Quote
If you're trying to influence people, whether it's spiritually or politically, you need to be prepared to give information about yourself and this information should be factual. The truth always comes out.

I guess I am trying to influence people. But I try to rely on verifiable facts and common sense reasoning . I try to avoid doing this by using information that can't be verified, as would be the case if I often mentioned my expertise based on my traditional Cherokee background as the reason people should allow me to influence them. ( I don't have a traditional Cherokee background , this is just an example of something a lot of people seem to claim )

If i did this while not providing any way to verify if my claims of expertise and authority were real , that would be wrong. When people post here and do that it always bothers me as people who turn out to not be who they claim to be posing as experts can't be good for our efforts here.

I hope just the fact I have posted so much doesn't give people the impression I am any kind of authority.

As I have said in other threads I have seen people getting hurt on both sides of these issues and as I have some understanding of both sides I hope to influence people in ways that help resolve this . However my own expertise is probably more in the area of having made a lot of mistakes and having a big mouth.

It is important to me not to misrepresent myself.   
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ric_Richardson on October 23, 2009, 04:51:48 pm
Tansi;

As I have participated in this discussion, I feel that it is important to note that, in my own opinion, I will not support any individual, although I do value much of the research that has been undertaken, in order to expose the damage that frauds continue to do to many people, using our people as tools in their deception.  I have too often seen where people establish a form of "internet" credibility and when new facts arise that discredit the individuals we find that there is a hidden agenda to the former input.

That being said, I must also state that I am very happy to see that the more Respectful style that this individual is now using is much better than the confrontational process that we were formerly involved in.  I look forward to continuing to read, with interest, the internet research abilities of M. Porcupine!

Ric
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on October 23, 2009, 07:13:53 pm
Ric
Quote
As I have participated in this discussion, I feel that it is important to note that, in my own opinion, I will not support any individual, although I do value much of the research that has been undertaken, in order to expose the damage that frauds continue to do to many people, using our people as tools in their deception.

Hi Ric
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The way it is worded is a bit hard to follow - but maybe you mean you don't like to let personal loyalties ( supporting individuals) get in the way of your stance on an issue.? If this is what you mean I am inclined to agree with you. I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with pretty much everyone who posts here, and a lot of the fights that happen seem to be people wanting to defend their friends , even if what their friend is doing deserves questioning.

Ric
Quote
I am very happy to see that the more Respectful style that this individual is now using is much better than the confrontational process that we were formerly involved in

I guess thats how you see it Ric. But as I already said, suggesting I have been disrespectful because i don't support people who sell sweetgrass also seems disrespectful.

We both have already expressed the basics of our disagreements and people can find links to most of this, and our different points of view , in this thread , so I don't see any point in going over it again. 

We see this differently. It seems better to try and cooperate on the areas where we agree than to continue arguing about this. 

I'm glad you appreciate my research skills...

Thanks for acknowledging that.

Heh... You still don't sound like you like me much, but thats OK.   ;D
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: NDN_Outlaw on October 24, 2009, 02:50:36 am
I was wondering why this thread was so intense for five pages. Mr Ric lives 120 miles or so north of me in the heart of Metis Country Green Lake I belief. The Green Lake people were part of a transfer of landless Metis from Lestock Saskatchewan. They were herded onto cattle cars and as they were leaving the town people burned their homes. They arrived late in the season and threw together cabins as best they could but the harsh Saskatchewan winter was a rough time for them.This was supposed to be a humanitarian gesture by the Provincial Government but a lot of people suffered. This was back in the 1940s. Most left for parts unknown. Those hardy few who remained were and are a proudly independant bunch. The Cree called the Metis, "the people who own themselves". Little known fact the Metis represented over one fifth of the entire plains Indian population. Hey Ric shes not the Canadian Government and I do think she trying to be nice:)
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: bls926 on October 25, 2009, 04:03:22 pm
I was wondering why this thread was so intense for five pages. Mr Ric lives 120 miles or so north of me in the heart of Metis Country Green Lake I belief. The Green Lake people were part of a transfer of landless Metis from Lestock Saskatchewan. They were herded onto cattle cars and as they were leaving the town people burned their homes. They arrived late in the season and threw together cabins as best they could but the harsh Saskatchewan winter was a rough time for them.This was supposed to be a humanitarian gesture by the Provincial Government but a lot of people suffered. This was back in the 1940s. Most left for parts unknown. Those hardy few who remained were and are a proudly independant bunch. The Cree called the Metis, "the people who own themselves". Little known fact the Metis represented over one fifth of the entire plains Indian population. Hey Ric shes not the Canadian Government and I do think she trying to be nice:)

Why was this thread so intense for five pages? The person who started this thread and several of the others who were attacking Moma had an agenda. They were called out on the thread about the Blackwater Muskogee and thought to cover their collective ass by attacking Moma. Deflection at its finest. That was the reason for my post on the 22nd. It wasn't that I thought NDN_Outlaw was criticizing Moma. I didn't want anyone new to the forum to think Moma had a history of demanding answers from everyone, but was unwilling to give any information about herself. It's not like that. She and I both feel pretty much the same way about this. If someone is wanting to "play Indian" in their own backyard . . . have at it, knock yourself out. If they're trying to influence others, politically or spiritually, if they're setting themselves up as some kind of authority on all things Indian, if they claim to speak for the Native community, if they're soliciting donations . . . be prepared to answer questions about who you are and what Nation claims you. Simple as that. Creator help you if you're lying.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on October 25, 2009, 06:49:18 pm
MoonieSixkiller
Quote
MaMa P has NOTHING to prove to anyone. Unless she is sitting here defending the actions of the ones that we are all here trying to stop, and I haven't seen that happen yet.

Thanks MoonieSixkiller

Re reading all this, I think the feeling underlying the objections to me asking questions as an anonymous person who also isn't claiming to be from an indigenous Nation, is based in the feelings of resentment towards non native people who all to often assume they have the right to tell Native people whats best for them.

As an anonymous person who doesn't claim to be speaking from my own indigenous cultural background , I think the possibility that I am a non native person asking questions , who has the opinion they know better than NDNs about how to do things , stirs up some legitimate associated resentment.  If the people involved are really who they say they are this resentment may be real, and if they aren't this resentment may be contrived to gain support, as they know it is a sore point for many Native people.   

In my mind , the bottom line is this; If I , as an anonymous person, with no claim of an indigenous cultural heritage, am in a position to either support, or purchase, information, a service or product, I have every right - and even a responsibility - to question the ethics and legitimacy of this information , service or product, and to make objections if this information , service or product is something I do not think should be supported...

If the information , service or product which is being offered is only available to people who can show they are enrolled in an indigenous Nation, then only people enrolled in these indigenous Nations have a right to question this or make objections to the quality of what is offered...   

As an anonymous person I agree it would be obnoxious, if I ever  presumed to tell a Native person what to do with their own culture within their own community.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Ric_Richardson on October 26, 2009, 12:10:06 am
Tansi;

Just to clear things up, I do support those who use their unique and individual talents and Gifts, to expose frauds and others who are intent on abusing Aboriginal people.

My disclaimer about not supporting any anonomous individual was not directed only at M.P., but was my way of saying that I will remain cautious about any anonomous individual, and will not blindly support anyone, as an individual, unless I know them very personally.  Just as many times, there have been people who come here, establish themselves and then we learn more about them, I maintain my position.  Having met, in times past, some of the COINTELPRO gang, I am just cautious.

As to disagreeing about many things, this is healthy and I do not expect to have all people agree with me all of the time.  When we enter into Respectful debate, we all are able to learn.  I think that M.P. and I have long since resolved many of our differences, so do not want anyone to think that I hold a grudge, because I don't.

NDN Outlaw- The Green Lake story is like a Canadian Holocaust and the land issue is still unresolved!  Not many people know about the houses being burned, while those who were forced to move, could still watch them burn, knowing that they could not go back.  My wife and I own the former Meadow Lake train station, where the people got off of the train, to be taken by truck, to Green Lake.  We preserved it, in Green Lake, in order to hang on to this part of our history.

Ekosi
Ric

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on October 26, 2009, 02:22:26 am
Ric
Quote
I will remain cautious about any anonomous individual, and will not blindly support anyone, as an individual, unless I know them very personally.  Just as many times, there have been people who come here, establish themselves and then we learn more about them, I maintain my position.  Having met, in times past, some of the COINTELPRO gang, I am just cautious.

I think we both agree on that Ric. Especially online and on a open website dealing with many controversial topics. In many cases, the people posting here  could be anyone and people should mostly trust their own common sense... This is especially true of an anonymous person , such as myself.

Ric
Quote
I think that M.P. and I have long since resolved many of our differences, so do not want anyone to think that I hold a grudge, because I don't.

Thanks . The feeling is mutual ....
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: apukjij on December 14, 2009, 01:37:09 am
well the feeling is not mutual for me, to quote zoi fraud
   "but the reality is this,you've lost some members and a sizable     number all indian,are no longer prepared to put up with her cross examining them as though they were personaly responsible for every fraud taking place in the world,"
thats exactly whats happening. ask ardy who will never post here again, ardy who is one of the most avid Warriors my Nation has ever had and the only Clanmother who was invited to speak and teach the youth at the Burnt Church Fishing Crisis, by the War Chiefs in attendance, many who came from the US to add thier support,

i myself was attacked, and provoked, and recieved personal messages which people felt i was being "attacked" "singled out" one person said she was "attacking your Culture and Tradition" mommap sidetracked threads in which i had been posting more than once, even resulting (the thread) it being split without the knowledge of the posters. she quoted out of context statements, from facebook, which in my attempt to provide context resulted in further attacks,
even the one person i named to come help me in this attack publically refused; then they send me a pm stating "we need to maintain a unified front" but not if it meant them sticking their head out of thier turtle shell and publically state stand up to mommap.

now by her latest postings it seems she has spent hundreds of hours researching cap and the maritimes,  so as soon as Maritime Natives joined she pulled them into her political ministrations, twisting words and posts from other websites to fit her political agenda, now i understand why i was attacked,

but i stood up to you and will continue to do so as long as you continue to use NAFPS for your own political ministrations, ive been on the activist path for 25 years and ive seen people like you come and go,

the saddest fact in all of this mess, is that in the nest of NAFPS, because of the work you have done exposing frauds, the rest of NAFPS is afraid to look at the Emperors clothes you are wearing so proudly before them.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 14, 2009, 03:31:34 am
Hi Apukjij

For people who haven't been following this , the discussions you felt were attacks are in the links below. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2456.0

This first one is the discussion with Ardy, and Apukjij, I agree, and I now understand that she is who she says she is, and my suspisions about her identity were wrong. I'm really sorry for that.

 When I didn't understand her response to my question about the obituary which appeared to say Ardy was Carl Trask, and i told her I really was a Porcupine, I think that is the first time , in participating here , that IMO I have been outright rude to someone, and I really regret that.

Personally I feel really bad about that, because that was rude . And i don't think it is good to be rude to anyone. I guess it is a good thing I tried this on someone who actually was who she said she was, as I won't be doing that again.  :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[

But I am the one who looks like an idiot not Ardy...

But I don't regret expressing concerns about her public blanket condemnation of the elected leadership of her Nation, or asking about why she calls herself a Chief.

That discussion about Ardy got split into another thread on Treaty benificiaries, because i asked about why you and Ardy seemed to be trying to encourage PODIAs to feel they deserved to be included as individual benificiaries, rather than seeing these treaties as Nation to Nation. That discussion is below 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2459.0

And , again, I feel really bad that I came across as badgering you. I guess i don't tolerate what seems to be people contradicting themselves very well, but I feel really bad that I got distracted by your personality. Because the issues are whats important, not me trying to force you to conform to my own ideas about clear communication. And I am also really sorry about that.

I have also felt attacked in this discussion, and attacked by you Apukjj, but really , I don't think thats important... And it's hard to know how people intend things, so why should I assume the worst?
 
I posted this link with information about CAP quite a while ago and even discussed some of this with you privately last September, shortly after you joined NAFPS .

http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcwzmv4g_60dzqrvcgp

 At that point I thought we seemed on friendly terms, and I thought you also had some concerns. Maybe I misunderstood your response.   

Because now it seems this whole post is because you are taking what I posted about CAP yesterday, in the thread on Treaty benificiaries and PODIAs, as something personal ?

( In the second newagefraud link above )

what I posted yesterday is below...

http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcwzmv4g_121d9rjrpdv

My research on CAP began quite a while before you joined NAFPS.  I've mentioned this in PMs with various people including Al, and my original concerns about this have nothing to do with you. I'm sorry you are interpreting this as a personal attack. It really isn't.

This only came up in relation to you, because in the thread on Acadian Metis in NAFPS, and on facebook, I saw you suggesting to PODIAs that they join the CAP affiliate in your area.

Which did make me wonder...

But you are making a mistake to think this is personal or that I am only bringing this up to make you uncomfortable.

Personally, this situation feels really crappy for me.   :'( I  really don't enjoy pointing out things people don't want to hear, when I would rather get along with these people . I'd like it if people such as yourself liked me. I don't want anyone to think I am a jerk, especially not people who are actual Native people who are trying to help their people . It would be so much easier and probably more personally rewarding for me if I just accepted the support you gave me initially, and didn't ask any questions.

But if I'm right about CAPs underlying agenda, it's a lot more important for me to bring this to peoples attention, and ask questions that may make all of us uncomfortable, than to say things people want to hear, just because i want you to like me.

And if I'm wrong and there is no truth in what I am saying, well , you are free to point this out and defend CAP.

But Apukjij, maybe it is CAP that is the Emporer who doesn't really have any clothes.

And if that is true, why does someone saying it bother you ?

Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: apukjij on December 14, 2009, 04:02:20 am
i accept your apology, and i reject you trying once again to hi-jack the thread, with that being said, its now left up to the reader to decide.
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 14, 2009, 03:07:23 pm
I'm not understanding what you are saying... Which thread or threads did you feel I hijacked?
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Superdog on December 14, 2009, 06:59:06 pm
i accept your apology, and i reject you trying once again to hi-jack the thread, with that being said, its now left up to the reader to decide.

that one kinda confuses me too....

Moma P has been nothing but straight up and honest, she's admitted all her mistakes and has done nothing but try and make peace with you while attempting to understand you Apukjij.

Not sure why you're attempting to discredit her and saying she sounds like John Williams (which she doesn't) and I'm also not sure why, even after she's apologized to you and admitted her mistakes, you still throw a cold shoulder at her....

I think that's what she, (and others who are reading like myself) are trying to gather from you.  If you feel personally wronged...spell it out, but she seems to have addressed where she's wronged you and apologized for it, but in acceptance of her apology you also threw another slap at her....which means you haven't accepted anything, so for the sake of all of us reading...spit it out.  What exactly are the issues you still have with Moma P?

Superdog
Title: Re: Discussion with Moma P
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 17, 2009, 05:09:58 pm
I have deleted my earlier post because I shouldn't be guessing about how things might look from Apukjij's point of view,  even if I sympathze with why he may be still feeling angry ..... If I still don't get it , whatever I say will probably just make it worse.