Author Topic: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds  (Read 14805 times)

Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2015, 03:47:21 am »
I knew it was mixed, he made no secret of it (which I respect). So many martial arts are hybrids and mixed and updated and adapted that this isn't a big deal except in certain circles inside certain disciplines, and those are usually due to ceremonial aspects of the art. So, IMO, the vids seem to depict a legit commitment to the practice, I just was hoping he is legit FN. Thx to all for the input. And I agree with many of the sentiments regarding the positivity of Okichitaw's existence and some of the instances surrounding it. I actually thought I might contact him at a later point for a youth program I want to eventually start for my tribe. A few of us are planning to create a traditional community in our old tribal home area and we want to involve the youth based on some old practices with developing our boys and girls/young men and women for future service to the tribe. I was looking for something like that to add  to the physical activity program. It would be alongside traditionally strong tribal activities like hiking, horse-riding, cross-country running, swimming, etc. for my part of the program. (I would also be partly in charge of initial training of our young gardeners and farmers, another strong tradition in my tribe.) What I am not interested in is adding anything explicitly Cree per se, as it isn't my tribe or tradition, but Lepine's system is at least Native-oriented and thus a potential attractor for the attempt at getting it funded.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline kahtboosted

  • Posts: 27
Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 02:29:04 pm »
I imagine just about every tribe had their own versions of boxing (contrary to the silliness in old films like Little Big Man) wrestling, knife, hatchet, and club fighting. And there's sure plenty of Native vets. Hard to imagine none of them ever brought it into the service.

Should we start a thread on claims of NMA, or include it here? Found these claims so far in a brief search:
Isuna Nika-Comanche
Lua
Mau Rakau
Pahi
Lima Lama-Kahuna
Rumi Maki-Peru
Kalapalo Wrestling-Brazil

Okichitaw seems at least mixed with Asian styles. But its creator admits it's mixed, works with elders, and doesn't seem motivated by money.

I think the point about boxing is worth looking into. If nothing else, an interesting topic for research and inquiry.
We could investigate the rest of the Native MA claims too. Mostly I'm concerned with the folks who are dangerous or who misrepresent new age stuff as traditional teachings. When it comes to outright 'fake' martial arts, its nearly impossible to keep track because everyday somebody invents a new one. And we have seen some false claims of Native MA already, so i tend to be skeptical when I hear about such a concept.
MA are not only fighting styles, but complete systems with a form of etiquette and also having accompanying philosophical teachings. This is part of why I'm not as interested practicing these newer 'hybrid' mixed martial arts that were recently constructed by mixing styles. However, if folks such as Lepine could not have very well preserved their cultural fighting skills without the aid of an Asian MA structure style, then it is better that he did what he had to do to preserve it and make it more 'relevant' to modern/popular MA schools structure, than to have allowed the kills to dissapear.

Offline kahtboosted

  • Posts: 27
Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2015, 02:45:16 pm »
I knew it was mixed, he made no secret of it (which I respect). So many martial arts are hybrids and mixed and updated and adapted that this isn't a big deal except in certain circles inside certain disciplines, and those are usually due to ceremonial aspects of the art. So, IMO, the vids seem to depict a legit commitment to the practice, I just was hoping he is legit FN. Thx to all for the input. And I agree with many of the sentiments regarding the positivity of Okichitaw's existence and some of the instances surrounding it. I actually thought I might contact him at a later point for a youth program I want to eventually start for my tribe. A few of us are planning to create a traditional community in our old tribal home area and we want to involve the youth based on some old practices with developing our boys and girls/young men and women for future service to the tribe. I was looking for something like that to add  to the physical activity program. It would be alongside traditionally strong tribal activities like hiking, horse-riding, cross-country running, swimming, etc. for my part of the program. (I would also be partly in charge of initial training of our young gardeners and farmers, another strong tradition in my tribe.) What I am not interested in is adding anything explicitly Cree per se, as it isn't my tribe or tradition, but Lepine's system is at least Native-oriented and thus a potential attractor for the attempt at getting it funded.

This seems it could be a pretty positive use of the martial art, a good thing for the youth too. I'd like to see thoughts from people from relevant tribes or any NDN martial artists.

While I don't know much about Okichitaw itself, the Asian arts which Lepine drew from, are pretty good for young people. In addition to the self-defense and exercise, the traditional teachers of these arts promote teachings about etiquette, respecting elders, etc. I do not study those 3 arts anymore, but when I was younger I trained with a school run by grandmaster who taught all 3 (TKD, HKD, and Judo). There was a whole code of conduct involved. For example, you had to say 'sir' and 'mam' to adults (even outside of the martial arts class, it applied to school and everything), be considerate of elderly who need help, and if any student were reported to be a bully (like at school etc), the teacher would kick them out of the class. I thought these teachings were kind of silly or overbearing when I was young, and now I am thankful that I was exposed to such good teachings looking back on it.
In order to pass a promotion, it wasn't just memorizing the moves. One had to recite the values and the code of conduct, etc. Furthermore, to succeed to blackbelt level, one had to demonstrate these decent traits over their years of studying the martial arts.

I personally like those traditional values and etiquette, and for that reason I'm not a big fan of the mixed systems. There are many schools now that mostly cater to busy and demanding parents with little brat white kids (some of whom use the fighting skills to bully kids at school, brag, etc). I would hope some of the good values are preserved within Lepine's system. It has been my experience that some MMA folks have a condescending view toward traditional teachings, and one can see that attitude on MMA boards like bullshido at times. Lepine's system may have respect for it though.
My point is just that you gotta find good teacher for the kids. Its really a shame that when you look at the average 'mcdojo', the sugar-drugged little devil white kids haven't even been taught basic traditional etiquette and don't even know how to do basic things like take off their shoes, bow to the teacher and flag when they enter the school, etc. If you tried to teach them that stuff, theyd probably mock it because white people raise their kids to be that way.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 10:55:17 pm »
Isuna Nika-Comanche
Bullshido forum seems skeptical, but nothing definitive.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8659
Randall Brown in CO claimed to have been taught it by "Wind Painter."
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60427&page=3
But on his website he no longer claims that.
http://www.akumu.com/inaboutus.html
Not much else out there besides his old claims.

Lua-Polynesian and Hawaiian. This article mentioned a number of famous figures and sources, and also their boxing.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/martial-arts-history/general-martial-arts-history/discover-lua-hawaii%E2%80%99s-martial-art/

Mau Rakau- Maori hand weapons fighting.
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/mau-rakau-maori-use-of-weaponry/page-1
If you've seen Once Were Warriors, that film shows weapons training being used to instill discipline in youths in reform schools.

Lima Lama- Samoan, founded by a former royal family member.
http://www.limalama.net/
Mixed.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/category/lima-lama/

Rumi Maki-Peruvian NDN allegedly from the Incans.
http://www.rumimaki.com/faq.htm
Bullshido didn't think much of it.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62414
There are Peruvians in the US trying to promote it.
http://rumi-maki-martial-arts.tripod.com/narma/

Kalapalo Wrestling-Brazil, Amazonian NDN.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007r6ch
Bullshido pointed out the program tried to make them seem primitive and portrayed the culture wrongly, even altering subtitle translations.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60847&page=8

Offline AClockworkWhite

  • Posts: 194
Re: Bullshido Forums for Eastern Tradition and Martial Art Frauds
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2015, 12:18:02 am »
Comanche scout training... Riiiiiight. One guy says he's a descendant of Cochise's medicine man. LOL
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.