NAFPS Forum

General => Non-Frauds => Topic started by: VHawkins on January 17, 2005, 01:27:59 am

Title: www.saponitown.com
Post by: VHawkins on January 17, 2005, 01:27:59 am
The forum at the aove website is great for people who have a "family story" of an Indian ancestor (usually Cherokee).

The people at the forum at the above site do REAL historic research of old documents to discover what hiappened to Indian tribes that have been declared extinct basically, east of the Appalachians, mostly in Virginia and the Carolinas, but also all the adjacent states.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: nativeohio on May 06, 2005, 09:40:31 pm
You would be supprised of the Many People Involved with the Saponi  Research !
I know of atleast 6 people In Ohio .
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: VHawkins on May 06, 2005, 10:55:36 pm
The state recogized "Occoneeche Band of Saponi Indians" of North Carolina have done a great deal of research on their relatives in Ohio. I can not speak for them but my perception is there are in Ohio people known as "Carmel Indians" whom the Occoneechee can historically document back to themselves on the NC/Va border.

The Occoneechee, Saponi, Eno, Sara (Cheraw), Monacan, and Tutelo are really like different bands of one people, and that makes it confusing. The most likely explanation (for which evidence exists) for the "Melungeons" is these are from the same eastern Siouan people. I was very skeptical at first, but there are documents to back it up. They were also called "Piedmont Catawba" as they ar related to the Catawba. The Monacan in Va is also state recognized. I have ancestors who came from the exact region these people are in today with common surnames to the Monacan.

One controversial viewpoint on the website is the "Eastern Blackfoot" tag. Supposedly there is a document "somewhere" showing after Fort Christianna (early 18th century) was closed that the Saponi there asked their name be collectively changed from "Saponi (as many at the fort were not Saponi) to "Blackfoot". There is a "Blackfoot Town" in Md and a "Blackfoot Church" in Indiana, and this corresponds to a period when all Indian people East of the Mississippi were being pushed or  migrating west. So that is the direction of the research at the present. Is this "true"? But it very definitely "could be". I just don't know. But it would explan family stories that have generally been rediculed so far. This research is being performed by people trying to find the truth and they are not trying to con anyone.

I have become convinced many Indian people in NC, Va, WVa, Oh, and Ky who say they are "Cherokee" are really descended from these Eastern Siouan peoples. They were pretty much assimilated even before the Revolutionary War. About 1730 or 40 (guesing) the Six Nations invited them to Canada (whre they are known collectively as Tutelo) and many went from NC and Va up to Canada, where they were incorporated into the Cayuga. They are there to this day. The last speaker of the Tutelo language died in Canada.

I am generally not fond of unrecognized tribes and am also skeptical of state recognized tribes, and it took a while for me to buy into all this.

These people have put a lot of work into their research.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: nativeohio on May 06, 2005, 11:48:30 pm
I'm Mike Walton and
I feel very Hornored that over the past 2 decades
I have Seen the Monacans grow -Visit them - Spend
time with Sam Cook who has helped in tribal history & B Lloyd there minister  And Karnne Wood story teller  I hope to be able Health permitting returning
to Bear Mountain and go to either there Pow-wow
or fall Homecoming !
The Saponi .. yes research has been a key issue
with many people .. I know all to Well I'm Saponi
Rick Haithcock is a distant cousin "We" have lot's of Roots and people in Ohio , My fathers mother was
a Collins .. Both Walton and Collins are Saponi
names  !
Another researcher is Professor Ariy Dixon of N.Y.
he has also visited Ohio many times !
It's Nice to see someone interested ! Thanks
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: VHawkins on May 07, 2005, 03:13:42 pm
Mike,

Howdy -- good to meet you. I live in Oklahoma and have rarely been back east. This June I am gonna travel to Virginia for the first time. I'd love to meet some of those Monacan as so many of my surnames seem to be from that region. Great grandpa was Jeff Richey. His mother was a Wayland whose anestors came from Scott Co. Va -- and were memebers of that Melungeon Church (Stoney Creek). Jeffs grandparents were John Richey and Mary Wood. Mary's parents were John Wood and Polly Dickson/Dixon. John's parents were Joseph Wood/s and Mary Hamilton. They lived in Rockbridge Co Va and before tha Albemarle Co in 1760-70. Where Monacan are found today is Rockbridge Co and Amherst Co -- and Amherst was formed from Albemarle Co. There is a Solomon Richey listed in Amherst Co. VA as a FPC -- as all these surnames are from the same area the Monacans are from, and all these surnames (Dickson, Wood, Hamilton, with Rchey's from thre as FPC and Waylands in a Melungeon community nearby) are known Monacan surnames. An "Anderson Griffith" married one of my Wayland relations, and Anderson and Griffith are both listed as Monacan surnames .

Mike, Feel free to email me personally -- vhawkins@pacer.com

Vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: nativeohio on May 11, 2005, 05:50:13 pm
Vance
took me a while to locate your reply !
Yes i'll email direct !
the nmaes you mentioned are all well
know names around Bear Mtn .
anything I can help with let me know !
i'm at >mikewalton58@yahoo.com<
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 25, 2005, 04:23:06 pm
Al, I need help!

I have been a moderaor at the saponiboard history forum for a couple of years, and have recently said I'd leave in protest to comments people make that the owner of the board refuses to do anthing about.

Recently in response to my decision to leave she responded by the following --

I haven't noticed a lot of posts here from people wanting "Indians" to interpret their dreams, or people bastardizing Indian spirituality. To my understanding, the difference between religion as we generally mean it, and spirituality is that spirituality is, to a large degree, mystical in its expression. In other words, a religion is dogmatic in nature, it's a collection of teachings that have been codified and the worshiper is taught, and must maintain, to the letter, at least to the extent the denomination or sect has interpreted it. Religion becomes more mystical when an individul's personal exerience or inspiration becomes more important. It's not what I'm taught by others, but what I experience, or am called to, that's the most important.

So, if by definition, Indian spirituality tends more towards the latter, it can only be so "traditional." Practicising it involves learning to pick up on, and heed direct influences sacred in nature. This emphasis tends to produce a much more tolerant religion, with more humility and tolerance towards others beliefs, as was typical on this continent at Contact. I sometimes wonder if some of the hue and cry against "New Age bastardization" of Native spirituality isn't ironically the result of the Christianization of the Natives involved, influenced by the intolerance inherent in a proseletizing, dogmatic system of belief.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=15652#post15652

In this response she is leading people astray I fear, and people who are low blood quantum of a tribe that pretty much dissapeared from history are being turned into new age "do your own thing" proponets that the Piedmont Siouan never were in the past, and will be teaching others this is the way Indian people do things.

She would listen to any Western Siouan people who respond I think. Some say Catawba and Saponi only emigrated ast about 1500 or so. some have said Santee were in SC and returned west later but I don't really know if that is so or not.

I will probably leave that group now, but I hope something might yet be salvaged. I don't think they are beyond all hope as they are really excellent in all other ways. I don't know what else to do, tho.

thanks --

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 26, 2005, 02:41:48 pm
Maybe it wasn't that big a deal, I don't know.  People from the site tell me it wasn't. But I had hoped to help these people steer away from silliness spirituality talk, and I guess I was the only one there opposed to a "make up your own religion" attitude.

It was more a little here and there than any one thing, but it might grow now that people there realize the site owner sees no fault in it.

Perhaps I did all I need to do in making my protest by leaving the group.

I won't go back there to post.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: educatedindian on November 27, 2005, 03:45:24 pm
I could still write something up for you if you want Vance. Let me know.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 28, 2005, 01:44:49 am
Well, if you'd like to do that, I'd appreciate it very much. They are basically good people, don't sell ceremonies, are searching for a heritage. One person wrote there that the NAFPS website seemed to be on a witch hunt. I got emotional and decided to leave the group shortly after that. The owner of the site prtty much gave me a little tongue lashing after that -- nothing that big. Before that I really respected her a great deal.

Again, they make a big deal of the Saponi, Tutelo, Occoneechee, Monacan, as being speakers of a Siouan language abnd feel there are close ties to South Dakota. I am not as certain those ties are all that close, tho, but I really don't know. For all I know they might have separated 2,000 years ago, or maybe just 4 or 5 hundred years ago. There was a band of them called Santee in South Carolina and some members said it was the same people as the Santee in Minnesota or Nebraska -- but after looking for a link betwen the two I never found it.

The Six Nations adopted some (I read that they called all Piedmont Siouan tribes -- even th Catawba -- by the name Tutero (or something very similar) -- specifically it was the Cayuga i think that adopted them).  Some are undoubtedly  presently with the Catawba as theyre are historic records of them always going back and forth between their own lands in the Southern Appalachians and closer to the Atlantic in NC and Va to live with the Catawba . There are several state recognized groups in NC and Va (Hawila-Saponi, Occoneechee band of Saponi, are recognized in NC and Monacan are recognized in Va.). o be state recognized in NC and Va means something as their standards are not easily met. This website is run by people who are not state recognized, but specific members of state recognized groups recognize them as being of Saponi/Tutelo/Monacan heritage based on genealogy.

They need to know NAFPS is NOT a witch-hunt group, but sincerely seek to help peple like these low blood quantum groups such as the Saponi. People -- especially those who know nothing of their heritage go there and hear her say Indian people pretty much had a "do your own thing" religion might foster future self proclaimed Shaman. Someone just learning about the heritage of a great great grandpa today might be calling themselves "a Saponi Shaman" 10 years down the road -- thre are a couple of posters that might be heading that way now I fear, you can tell by a budding "I know it all" attitude growing -- but that is rare and most are not like that. That's what I was thinking of when I took every opportunity to redirect people who made comments that seemed inappropriate. I guess Linda, site owner, took exception to it. I've met here and basically like her as a person -- but in this area she is mistaken.

I got a little hot in my last post so I'm staying away as I have already ogne further than I wanted to.

I'd appreciate it if you also educated them about the purpose and goals of NAFPS.

Thanks.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: educatedindian on November 28, 2005, 04:00:14 pm
*New note-DISPUTE RESOLVED. Thanks to Linda and Scott for their gracious apologies.*

Here's my response for them Vance. Please repost both of these posts:

Hello, my name is Dr. Al Carroll. I'm a historian who teaches for the Alamo Community College District. My heritage is Mescalero Apache, mixedblood, also Mexican and Irish.
Vance passed along to me some of the discussion you were having at your group and I'd like to clear up some misconceptions and outright lies that are being spread about us over at NAFPS.

Someone very ignorantly used the term "witch hunt". My guess is they've never faced prejudice in their life or they wouldn't so casually claim that protecting people from being misled, defrauded, lied to, and even raped or having their child molested by imposters posing as Native elders, somehow is the same as mass murder done in the name of religion.

I wish that person had not been too lazy to even bother reading our mission statement:
http://www.newagefraud.org/about.html
New Age Frauds & Plastic Shamans or NAFPS is an activist group of Native people and our supporters....
Ths site and forum is for those concerned about the fraud, deceit, money hunger, sexual abuse, racism, control, hunger for power and ego, and cult-like tendencies of the New Age movement and pseudo "shamans." We investigate and seek to warn the public about impostors and exploiters posing as Native medicine people or elders. There are more than two hundred impostors out there posing as Cherokee medicine people alone. Multiply that by five hundred Native nations in the US, and add on the exploiters who abuse or lie about practices of Latin America's Indians, and you get an idea of the sheer, massive scope of the problem.
What NAFPS Is and Is Not
We are not a "hate" group, any more than a rape crisis center promotes "hate" of men. This is one of the more ridiculous knee-jerk claims thrown at us. Many Nuage frauds are themselves blatantly racist in their contempt for Native people, beliefs, and wishes on these issues.
If anything we are an ANTI-hate group, a HateWatch group specializing in monitoring and warning the public about a special brand of racist, the Nuage fraud or pseudo-shaman leader.
We are not especially concerned about anyone's blood quantum, enrollment status, or family history. The only time we would care was if someone had lied in order to "pass" or appear "more Indian" to justify their misbehavior.
We accept all kinds of people: Native, white, black, Latino, Maori, traditionalist, Christian, pagan, atheist, Muslim, etc. We have members from an amazing variety of tribal backgrounds, Anishinaabe, Apache, Cherokee, Choctaw, Lakota, Lenni Lenape, Menominee, Munsee, Navajo, O'odham, and many others.
We at NAFPS make no claim to perfection. But... we do research the information we put out.
We seek to *prevent* harm to people, not cause it.... except to frauds, who we merely wish to bankrupt, drive out of business, or see thrown in jail for some of the worst abuses.
That means we take great care with our warnings and pronouncements. We *do* retract or alter them if new information comes out, or if we inadvertently harm people.
We feel free to disagree among ourselves. No one is punished for simple dissent....
And this gets down to the final point, again worth repeating: We are not a "hate" group, but are about as ANTI racist as can be.
Welcome to NAFPS. Feel free to join our forum and ask questions or comment.
We gladly accept help from all good people of conscience, because without them we can't stop these frauds. And without them, we wouldn't have had nearly as much success against frauds as we have."
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: educatedindian on November 28, 2005, 04:37:27 pm
Pt 2
There was also another post wherein someone recited the usual romanticized Nuage nonsense. I think this person is, perhaps unwittingly, a perfect example of the dangers that the Nuage movement poses to Native people, especially those that were not raised in Native cultures. This person seems to have only learned Nuage ideas about Native beliefs rather than anything close to the truth. It's worth responding to that post point by point:

"To my understanding, the difference between religion as we generally mean it, and spirituality is that spirituality is, to a large degree, mystical in its expression."

Nonsense. One can be a member of an organized religion and be mystical as well. Almost any of the Catholic, Buddhist, or Santeria saints are good examples of that.

"In other words, a religion is dogmatic in nature, it's a collection of teachings that have been codified and the worshiper is taught, and must maintain, to the letter, at least to the extent the denomination or sect has interpreted it. Religion becomes more mystical when an individul's personal exerience or inspiration becomes more important. It's not what I'm taught by others, but what I experience, or am called to, that's the most important."

Also some pretty silly nonsense. In every Native tradition I know of, just your "experience" counts for very little. If a spirit calls you, that's not enough. After all, many spirits lie. Many spirits deceive. Many are downright evil. That's why you should consult elders. Otherwise your "experience" might actually be something to avoid. For that matter, it could be a sign you need counseling, not just spiritual but also psychological. There are far too many Nuage types claiming "spirit told me to" who frankly need a shrink.

Also, you seems to suggest a belief in anti-Christian bias, assuming that organized religion is somehow evil by nature.

Many Natives are Christian as well as traditional, and find no contradiction in the two.

There's also another problem with your claim which suggests you haven't been around Native people that much:

*Most Native Traditions Are Organized Religions.*

They have priesthoods and dogmas, and there's nothing wrong with either. ?

"So, if by definition, Indian spirituality tends more towards the latter, it can only be so "traditional."
Practicising it involves learning to pick up on, and heed direct influences sacred in nature."

Sorry, but that is frankly just so much Nuage gibberish, nothing close to any Native traditions.

Again, in every Native tradition out there, you need the counsel of elders, priests, or medicine people.

It's not only foolish to try and "experience" your way around forces as powerful as there are in nature, it's downright dangerous.

"I sometimes wonder if some of the hue and cry against "New Age bastardization" of Native spirituality isn't ironically the result of the Christianization of the Natives involved, influenced by the intolerance inherent in a proseletizing, dogmatic system of belief."

That tells me you don't know much about the issue at all. It's precisely the strongest traditionalists who are most opposed to Nuage exploitation, racism, and cultural imperialism, people like Arvol Looking Horse, Wendy Rose, etc. The Christian Indians aren't nearly so much caught up in this issue.

And here you seem to become outright bigoted. If all Christians are intolerant, how do you explain Martin Luther King? How do you explain the Abolitionists, Father Bartolome De Las Casas, Liberation Theology, the Peace Movement, ? hundreds of millions of Christians who don't fit your bigoted image of them?

I hope you can someday truly become as tolerant as you fantasize you are.
I also hope instead of falling for Nuage fantasies you turn to your elders instead.
After all, without our elders, Native traditions die. This is how Native traditions are TRULY passed on, not by "your own experience".

I invite everyone concerned about this issue to come to NAFPS.
http://www.newagefraud.org
We welcome everyone, even and especially those who have much to learn.
Dr. Al Carroll
Alamo Community College District
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 28, 2005, 08:18:25 pm
Al the entire thread where this was discussed has dissapeared and my password no longer works.

hmmm . . . I guess I'll have to create a new identity to make the post . . . it might not stay up long, but we'll see. I guess she doesn't seem to want to be percieved of as wrong.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 28, 2005, 09:59:09 pm
I sent it directly to Linda since she wrote it. Thanks, Al -- I appreciate it.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on November 29, 2005, 12:19:11 pm
Al, here is what the person said who attacked nafps -- "with hunt" might have my words.

I did sent your response to the person who wrote the material you are referriing to

From "Collins": [there are good "Collins" people there as well as this person]

"What I don't understand is who gives any of these people the authority to think they are the judges and jury on other groups that may be seeking out their heritage and exercising their right to self-determine and religous freedom?

Don't these people that do this realize that is why so many Native descended people do not like to talk about their Native heritage?

Why say you have Indian blood when there are people out there so eager to attack you for claiming who you are?

For along time Indians were hated. Now that there seems to be some respect and admiration for Native people and their culture some few want to tell others that they are not allowed to do this or that. That they are not allowed "to exapropriate" someone elses culture. What does that mean exactly? and who made them culture police?

If someone wants to run around wearing war bonnets and smoking God knows what in peace pipes why is that anyones business except the persons doing that?

If there are people out there that are mixing Native, Euro, and Eastern philosophies/traditions whose business is it to rail against them for exercising their freedoms of religion and association?

Why is it so necessary to pour negative attention on groups that may or may not have a legitimate claim to what their doing?

If they are legite then they will stand the test of time and gather the evidence to show to the skeptics.

Either way if someone or group does something you don't like then don't get involved with them.

==================== end of quote ------------

I believe I was the only person at the time that  spoke up about this comment and this is what prompted me to write in my resignation as moderator, after which I was banned from commenting at all -- I expected others to stand up as well and none did.

Having said that -- I will defend the group as many people there are good people and I still respect them, no matter how they feel about me. They have tried to earn respect with others in that region of the country and have earned some degree of respect.

So I am emotionally torn really.  I believe they are probably having an internal debate over this issue as we speak. Before going further here on this topic it will be best to see how that internal battle gets resolved. In my last comments there I invited them here to this site but none have chosen to do so.

vance



Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Linda Carter on November 30, 2005, 04:38:37 am
I would like to apologize for any offense that may have been given and thank you for the time you spent responding.  Clearly I have a lot to learn.  In the future we will be sticking to what we do best, genealogy and history research.  

We at Saponitown wish you all the best in your endeavors.  
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: mikailtariq on November 30, 2005, 08:46:43 am
I am attaching my message to this because it is also about the Saponi - Eastern Blackfoot.  I came here because the address at the contact button for this webpage doesn't work anymore.  Yahoo mail says educated_ndn@yahoo.com has been discontinued.  Here is the message I was trying to send to the poster of Burying "Digging for the Red Roots".  I found it in a Google search for Blackfoot and "Black Dutch".  

As Salaam Alaikum!

In your article, Burying "Digging for the Red Roots", you dismiss the existence of Blackfoot Cherokees and make the mistake of connecting Blackfoot Cherokees to the Western Blackfoot of the Rocky Mountain area of Idaho-Montana-Alberta etc. The Western Blackfoot are Algonquian in language, whereas the Eastern Blackfoot spoke Tutelo, a Siouan language. They were called Blackfoot because they dyed their moccasins black. The Eastern Blackfoot were principally the Saponi Siouan group from the Piedmont of Virginia. When they were driven out of there, they scattered and joined or formed other groups. Perhaps the largest group joined the Blacks (African-Americans) of the Southeast, there are many thousands of Blacks today with Blackfoot ancestry, which obviously would not be the Western Blackfoot. The second largest group joined the Cherokee and eventually lost their Siouan language and adopted the Iroquoian language of their hosts. Some elements scattered along the North Carolina border with Virginia and formed the groups now know as the Goinstown Indians, the Person County Indians and the Haliwa Indians (Halifax and Warren counties), now called the Haliwa-Saponi, and the Occaneechi or Occaneechi Saponi. Many went into the formation of the Melungeons, most of whom are part Eastern Blackfoot. Some were absorbed into white communities. Only the ones who joined the Cherokee are recognized as Indian by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Here is the statement on the Native American component of Melungeon ancestry, from "What Is a Melungeon".
The principal groups of Indians contributing to the Melungeons were the Siouans of the Virginian and North Carolina Piedmont (mainly the Saponi or Eastern Blackfoot), the Algonquians of the Coastal region of these states (Powhatan, Pamunkey, Nansemond, etc.), and the Appalachian tribes, Southern Iroquoian (Cherokee and Tuscarora) and the Yuchi (Yuchean language is related to the Siouan languages, but not considered close enough to actually be called Siouan). The Indians of the Coastal and Piedmont regions were the mixed groups that formed the original mixed race groups that became the Melungeons and several remnant groups which still identify themselves as Indian. Appalachian Indians were less mixed with Black and White, but they did not become involved with the Melungeons until the Melungeons had already formed and moved from the Virginia - North Carolina border in the Piedmont to the Appalachia area. The Cherokee particularly inter-married with the Graysville Melungeons of the Tennessee River Valley. The Saponi are probably the most important Indian element in most groups of Melungeons. As they broke up and scattered, they were generally known as Blackfoot. That is the name used for them in the Melungeons of Appalachia, the Cherokee and in the Black community. There are many Blackfoot descendants in all three of these groups.

Please correct your statement that there are no Blackfoot Cherokee, for there are thousands of them. Thank you.

As Salaam Alaikum!
Mikail Juma Tariq
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Linda Carter on November 30, 2005, 04:41:17 pm
Thank you for responding, Mikhail.  I would just like to add that with the hundreds of families I've heard from to date with the eastern Blackfoot ID, there are as many who have been categorized as "white," as there are those categorized as "black."  For example, there is no hint of African ancestry in my own family (not counting my children!).  We have four or five surnames in the family that may be involved, one of which lived near a place along the migration paths out of VA called Blackfoot Town ca. 1740.  Another line lived in a Blackfoot town in the midwest where Saponi descendants cluster.   In my opinion, it's an ancient name predating contact.  Tutelo for blackened foot is "ici asepa hiye."  The name of one of the tribes within what became known as the Saponi nation was corrupted into "Sissipaha."  We'd love to hear more about your own research, cousin.  Join us at our Saponitown site.

My apologies for taking this thread off topic.  
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Scott Collins on November 30, 2005, 06:02:57 pm
I would like to say that I apoligize to NAFPS for using the words "witch hunt" to describe your purpose or mission. I don't disagree with most of NAFPS purposes or goals. I do have questions about some of them and I should have perhaps addressed those questions to NAFPS first before seeking answers from Saponitown.

I will say again to Vance and to all concerned as I did at Saponitown that I apoligize if my questions or comments were taken in an offensive way or out of context. It was not my intent to offend or to have people precieve it as an attack on Vance or NAFPS. The intent was to ask questions and get clearification on the issues.

As you can see by Vances posting of my comments I have alot of questions concerning some of the issues.

To Vance I ask for your forgiveness if I have offended you or caused you hardship and apoligize for my laziness and ignorance. I am learning alot and still have much to learn about my heritage and Native America.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: walking-soft on November 30, 2005, 10:59:51 pm
Hmmmm??Thank you Linda and Collin for coming to this site. I do hope you have taken the time to read all the posting and all the research that we do on this site!! However I do have something to say about the apologies. A true heart felt apology consists of accepting responsibility for what is said or done. Words like, ""if I have offened", taken in an offensive way","out of context"," for any offense that MAY HAVE been given","it was not my intent" ect. are not taken responsibility for anything.

I took the time to read many postings on your site including the one you deleted concerning, "witch hunt" about the NAFPS and many attacks toward Vance throughout your site. There seems to be a lot of distension there and a one upsmanship, Vance asked to brainstorm and what I read was a long disertation by both of you and a lot of it gibberish and newage mingled with it all,I mean what was that all about?? I'm an intelligent person but had to sit back and say what in the world are they talking about??

Yes I am Cherokee and I do know my traditions and have been taught by Elders of the Eastern Band and  if they had been sitting by your side and heard all that you both were sayingyou would have been taken to task, that I am sure of. For me learning my history is also learning the traditions that come with it and no you do not change them to fit "our own little world".

Having said all that the final comment that was made was "brace yourself guys the NAFPS has been known to shred groups and I'm sure we'll be next but I think we can hold our own", what is it you think you have to defend?? Thats not how this site works but we do research those who take MY PEOPLE, the Cherokee and yours and exploit us , use fake ceramonies, sell "tribal Cards",proclaim themselves chiefs and begin there little cults and abuse and damage people, threaten them ect all in the name of Cherokee. There are very dangerous groups out there drawing in naive people who want to know thier roots, or to belong ,who are being abused, usedfor thier money, sexual abuse, and yes some will "just" disappear.

My prayers to Creator that we all can work together as a group with kindness and love and understanding, prayers sent on the scent of our sacred herbs taken to Creator on the wings of Eagle.    Joyce A.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: educatedindian on December 01, 2005, 01:12:55 am
Thanks to Linda and Scott for being gracious enough, big enough, and open minded enough to reconsider their earlier words and apologize. I gladly accept them, and I welcome all of you here to NAFPS, as I would anyone else from your forum. Vance has always had a lot of good things to say about Saponitown.com. I hope anyone looking at this thread will follow it through to its conclusion so as not to get the wrong impression about your forum, so I'll add some notes to earlier posts.

About the alleged "Cherokee-Blackfoot":
I'll concede the possibility of groups that there may be groups once known as Blackfoot being further east. The problems with people claiming to be "Cherokee-Blackfoot" are:

Most seem think that's one tribe, not ancestors who had two tribal lineages.
Most seem to be basing the claim of Cherokee ancestry simply by picking one of the best known tribes.
Many Blacks seem to be automatically assuming Blackfoot somehow signifies Black/Indian ancestry automatically, as though it were a racial term.
And many claiming to be "Cherokee Blackfoot" don't seem to have a clue about anything closer to their possible heritage other than pan Indianism images.
Some sites:
http://www.native-languages.org/iaq18.htm

All kinds of eccentrics, to put it kindly, cluster around these claims.
http://yuweb.addr.com/archives/v62i8/features/edrice.html

Not to mention some pretty notorious frauds made that claim.
http://famous.adoption.com/famous/long-lance-buffalo-child.html

And of course "Mahir/Eagle Sun Walker" and his fraudulent claims as well.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on December 02, 2005, 01:31:15 am
I am happy this is turning out as it is.

Scott, Linda -- I remember my mother talking about my dad's family saying, "Those Hawkinses never forgive nothin'! They hold grudges forever!" So every time somthing comes up, I  remember her saying that, and I want to prove her wrong. Things have changed, but I don't wanna be bitter or angry at anyone.

Vance



Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on December 02, 2005, 03:35:45 am
Mikail Juma Tariq  --

you said --

whereas the Eastern Blackfoot spoke Tutelo, a Siouan language. They were called Blackfoot because they dyed their moccasins black.

reply --

Do you have any documentation if this? If you do it is very important.

you said --

When they were driven out of there, they scattered and joined or formed other groups. Perhaps the largest group joined the Blacks (African-Americans) of the Southeast, there are many thousands of Blacks today with Blackfoot ancestry,

reply --

same question -- what proof do you have of this?

you said --

The second largest group joined the Cherokee and eventually lost their Siouan language and adopted the Iroquoian language of their hosts.

reply --

it is very possible that when my Richey's married my Brown's and were living in Le Flore/Sequoyah Co., Ok in 1871 -- Cherokee married Piedmont-Siouan.  And they did NOT join te Cerokee as a group. There is no historical evidence any Piedmont Siouan band/tribe ever joined the Cherokee as a group that I am aware of, and I have looked into it quite a lot, especialy because of researching my family. I strongly suspect this is in error. If you can document it I have a Chickamauga history research group that would be very intrested in it. My pet peeve is fake/made up Cherokee history and this is largely why I came to NAFPS in the first place.

you said --

Only the ones who joined the Cherokee are recognized as Indian by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.  

reply --

There are records of tribes that were absorbed by the Cherokee and I there is no record that I am aware of, of a single group of Saponi being absorbed by the Cherokee. Perhaps some of the Catawba were  Saponi . . . Can you provide proof of this?

You said the Melungeons are descended from Siouan, Algonquin, and Iriquoian peoples mixed with White and Black. Where is your evidence? I've seen evidence of Siouan mostly, I've seen evidence of one Cherokee family (Cole) in the mix, and other "maybe's" -- maybe Tuscarora. I've heard a family or 2 that "might have" had a Black component.

When I speak of "Melungeons" I am referring to the specific geographic location generally considered their home -- from Scott Co in SW Va to Hancock Co in NE Tn basically -- those other areas you mentionight be regions where the ancestors of the Melungeons once lived, but the term itself originated in that region I mention. In other words, people from other places might have lived side by side with Melungeons and been Saponi, but they were never called Melungeons as were those from SW Va to NE Tn. The term was originally specific to that region only.

can you be more specific as to the nature of this evidence you imply exists?

you said --

Appalachian Indians were less mixed with Black and White, but they did not become involved with the Melungeons until the Melungeons had already formed and moved from the Virginia - North Carolina border in the Piedmont to the Appalachia area.

reply --

I never heard of a group called the "Appalachian Indians". Who is this?

you said --

The Cherokee particularly inter-married with the Graysville Melungeons of the Tennessee River Valley.

reply --

what evidence do you have? I read on Melungeon Heritage Association that the Cherokee Hicks and Fields families married into the Graysville Goins family -- but 2 families inter-marrying isn't that big of a deal. Were there others?

lastly, you said --

The Saponi are probably the most important Indian element in most groups of Melungeons.

reply --

I agree.

you said --

As they broke up and scattered, they were generally known as Blackfoot.

reply --

do you have proof of this? This is one of the "Holy Grails" of those researching this topic, any document with the word "Blackfoot".

you said --

That is the name used for them in the Melungeons of Appalachia, the Cherokee and in the Black community. There are many Blackfoot descendants in all three of these groups.  

reply --

I don't know many Cherokee that would agree with that, but i have heard the name used wrt Appalachia -- I am not sure of the Black community of Appalachia.

vance

Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on December 02, 2005, 11:21:37 am
http://www.saponitown.com/Blackfoot.htm

Al, Have you read of Linda's take on the research of the origin of the term "Eastern Blackfoot?" I think it is well written and very well migh be true.

She poses a lot of intresting points.

vance
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: mikailtariq on December 02, 2005, 03:27:32 pm
As Salaamu Alaikum!

Vance - You said "When I speak of "Melungeons" I am referring to the specific geographic location generally considered their home -- from Scott Co in SW Va to Hancock Co in NE Tn basically -- those other areas you mentionight be regions where the ancestors of the Melungeons once lived, but the term itself originated in that region I mention. In other words, people from other places might have lived side by side with Melungeons and been Saponi, but they were never called Melungeons as were those from SW Va to NE Tn. The term was originally specific to that region only. "
The Ridge-Only mentality of some tracing their ancestry to Newmans Ridge is truly horrible.  The Graysville Melungeons have long been known as Melungeons, they live in the lowlands of Hamilton, Roane and Rhea counties.  As far as I am concerned, our claim to the use of the Melungeon name is just as good as those on Newman's Ridge.  The way some of the Ridge-Onlies attack those of us who admit having some Black ancestry has alienated me to the point where I have little interest in this group and they are not who I mean when I say Melungeon.  
I use Melungeon as it is used in "What is a Melungeon".  "The original group in Henry and Patrick counties, Virginia, and Rockingham, Stokes and Surry counties, North Carolina, has been called the Goinstown Indians. As they moved west, in Surry, Yadkin, Wilkes, Alleghany and Ashe counties, they were called Melungeons. Some have always been called Melungeon, like the community in Hancock, Hawkins and Grainger counties of Tennessee and the one in Wise, Scott and Lee counties of Virginia and the one in Letcher county, Kentucky. The one in Person County, North Carolina, has been called the Person County Indians (they are somewhat organized under that name) and earlier the Cubans. The group in Rhea, Roane and Hamilton counties, Tennessee, are called the Goins locally, but have long been identified as Melungeons by people from the rest of Tennessee. The group in Magoffin and Floyd counties, Kentucky, and Highland county, Ohio, has been called the Magoffin County People in Kentucky and the Carmel Indians in Ohio, and have only recently been called Melungeons. The group in western Louisiana and adjacent Texas is known as the Redbones (not to be confused with the Red Bones of South Carolina) or the Louisiana Melungeons. The group in Gulf and Calhoun counties, Florida, was called Melungeon as long as they were identified as a separate group but was also known as the Dead Lake People."  The groups I am primarily interested in are the Goinstown Group of Henry, Patrick, Rockingham, Stokes and Surry Counties, VA and NC, The Graysville Melungeons of Hamilton, Roane and Rhea counties, TN, and the Texas-Louisiana Melungeons along the Sabine River.  
My great great grandmother was recorded as Cherokee for her marriage, but I do not believe she was Cherokee.  She lived in Roane county and was named Barnes, which is a Graysville Melungeon type name.  She died shortly after my great grandfather's birth, I do not know anything more about her or her family.  
The Nichols I talked to in Highlands County, Ohio, Carmel Melungeons or Carmel Indians, claimed recent Cherokee ancestry and they did look like they had Indian ancestry, which I have never seen in any other Melungeon community, including the Hancock-Hawkins-Grainger-Wise-Scott-Lee-Letcher counties, TN, Va and KY, group.  
I have talked to several people in the Black comunity of northeastern Florida (Jacksonville, etc.) who claimed Blackfoot ancestry.  They did not know what the term meant but I never heard that it meant part Black.  
Please distinguish between my statements and the quotes from "What is a Melungeon".  Appalachian Indian is from "What is a Melungeon", the sentence before explains it means the Yuchi, Tuscarora and Cherokee, it is used in a geographical sense in opposition to Piedmont and Coastal, three zones of Virginia.  Note that some writers contend that the Yuchi are the main Indian ancestors of the Melungeons, see Karlton Douglas, etc.  
Do see "What is a Melungeon" and the attached note on "The Original Melungeon Home Area" at
http://www.rossmusic.net/what_is_a_melungeon.htm
Mo Alaikum Salaam
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on December 03, 2005, 12:28:29 am
Maybe I misunderstood. I am  tired . . . I appologize.  I have ancestors that were in Scott Co., Va. I have read so many websites of made up Cherkee history and i have a pet peeve against people stating things as facts without showing a document to back it up. I think the same is true of some Melungeon websites. Some are good and some are not.

I live in Oklahoma. The earliest line of my family came here in 1828, latest in 1906.

vance

vance
Title: Re:I Wanna Help
Post by: ItalLiving on December 15, 2005, 09:58:03 am
Hello,

I also c a lot of fraud in spiritual teachings !!
I realy like your Forum but i dont like FRAUD and
Wannabees , So what can i do to help ?

Mitakuye oyasin
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: BlondeyeLaurie on December 31, 2006, 05:01:49 pm
Mikailtariq...everyone....*waves* ...Hello to all from a  "newcomer" here. I found this forum on a Google search and noticed a few familiar names at this forum thread/link and read it through a few times and wanted to chime in/contribute to some measure in as much as it relates to my maternal ancetry.  The primary surnames for my maternal line are Nichols, Gibson, Cole, Perkins & Collins.  That said, my ancestors are in fact the very people that were called the "Magoffin Brown People" and the "Carmel Indians"..depending on where they regionally lived.  I never heard the term "Melungeon" until just over a year ago and was somewhat taken aback by it's usage to be most honest.  Our family story was that we were descended from the "Blue Eyed Cherokee"...whoever they may be, if in fact there is or was such a group.  I now feel strongly that it is less likely that my kin are Cherokee by tribal affiliation than they are some other tribal group or perhaps a mixture of a few.  I suspect that they were perhaps Saponi and/or Monocan to some measure but do not have proof of such.  My ancestors were truly the "poorest of the poor"...they relocated for employ and were tenant farmers...they did not own land so deeds or tax lists are just not in existance to any degree. There are no bibles or documented histories and tracing their lineage has been at best, cumbersome.  Some of my "kin" still reside in and near the Carmel , Highland County, OH area and too, some in Hardin County, also in Ohio.  I grew up in Ohio and remain here but visited KY often.  I do not "look the part" in many people's eyes but some family members are strikingly more NA looking. In 1966, the year of my birth there was an article that ran in the Lima news about my family in and around Hardin and Allen counties, titled "Excited Cherokees", which detailed how the US Govt. wanted to interceed and assist them as a group because of their living circumstances...I do not knwo if that "program" ever came to fruition, but there were, at the time, supposedly 144 family members places ona  list to recieve assistance through this government grant.  The use of the term "Cherokees" in describing them ethnically is interesting to me...were they , in fact Cherokees?...or was this term tossed errantly?  The Cherokee, as a tribe is perhaps the single most recognizable tribe, by name, so perhaps like many others they used the term analagously to describe any group of "Indians", or people of Native American descent.  Tossing a tribal term or "looking" Native American do not Native American make...I take exception to labellign people based on hwo they physically appear.  Do all "politicians" LOOK like one?  Do all "librarians" sport a unique look?  But of course not nor do all of us Carmel Indians look alike either.  One pointed, legal example of this is in our family birth certificates...some children of 2 specific parents have been labelled "black" while yet others "white"...and they had the SAME two parents!  This was not uncommon in my family.  Separating the wheat from the shaft is tricky for many, myself included...I do at times, identify with the Melungeons but as a term I find it simplistic and ill-suited at describing my maternal lineage.  As to the Carmel Indian designation...what does that really mean or imply?  What tribal affiliation can we best "fit" into?  Is there a designation for people of mixed ancestry who were once called the "Brown People of Magoffin"?  Historians and researchers and anthropologists know that we exist, but into which grouping do WE fall?  By which tribe are we included? It is quixotic to be called an Indian but to be labelled otherwise and demeaned for attempting to align with one specific group of Native people.  There is no litmus test for us to determine our origins tribally so for now...we, those that care and remain, must try and uncover the very thing that our ancestors, out of severe discrimination, tried to hide as an act of self-preservation.  I know we belong to a group...but which one or two or twelve? Perhaps we will forever be the "mixed bloods" from the Magoffin and Carmel settlements.  Best to all in your endeavors; blessings~~~Laurie
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: frederica on December 31, 2006, 08:41:21 pm
Have you seen this article?  http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/carmel.html    frederica
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: BlondeyeLaurie on January 01, 2007, 01:06:37 am
Thank you yes, I have read that particular article...and too have waited for the "upcoming" articles, family group sheets, etc that they expected to contribute to their site/database.  I have tried researching any "remnant Shawnee" that my ancestors may have been members of as well.  Thank you for the reply...I'll keep census and document digging and forum hunting until hopefully, one day something will manifest and put some specific and concrete answers in front of me/us.  Blessings~~~Laurie
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: earthw7 on September 06, 2007, 08:16:12 am
My petpeeve:
I am from Standing Rock,
I am Blackfeet/Hunkpapa/Oglala of the Lakota Nation at least half of me, the rest is Dakota.
The Blackfeet are known as Lakota speakers, Lakota considered Western Sioux.
I started reading on these people and each document states they can find no
connection to our people or the Blackfeet in Montana.
I also read where this supposed nation is extinct.
Makes you wonder.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: frederica on September 06, 2007, 05:14:30 pm
Aside the long argument about the Meluegeons here is a good article. http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/cherokeeblackfoot.html
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: earthw7 on September 06, 2007, 06:14:26 pm
Very Very Interesting
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: debra on December 29, 2009, 01:04:53 pm
Hi my name is debra and my mother was born in what is called goinstown area. I was always told my granny was indian.Her name was jennie Hickman before marriage and jennie hickman richardson . I guess I'm just trying to find out if she was native american and of what tribe
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: educatedindian on December 29, 2009, 02:22:25 pm
Debra, you misunderstand what this forum is about. It is to investigate and warn the public about spiritual exploiters. This is not a genealogy forum.
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: E.P. Grondine on January 01, 2010, 08:08:20 pm

Again, they make a big deal of the Saponi, Tutelo, Occoneechee, Monacan, as being speakers of a Siouan language and feel there are close ties to South Dakota. I am not as certain those ties are all that close, tho, but I really don't know. For all I know they might have separated 2,000 years ago, or maybe just 4 or 5 hundred years ago. There was a band of them called Santee in South Carolina and some members said it was the same people as the Santee in Minnesota or Nebraska -- but after looking for a link betwen the two I never found it.

The Six Nations adopted some (I read that they called all Piedmont Siouan tribes -- even the Catawba -- by the name Tutero (or something very similar) -- specifically it was the Cayuga i think that adopted them).  Some are undoubtedly  presently with the Catawba as there are historic records of them always going back and forth between their own lands in the Southern Appalachians and closer to the Atlantic in NC and Va to live with the Catawba . There are several state recognized groups in NC and Va (Hawila-Saponi, Occoneechee band of Saponi, are recognized in NC and Monacan are recognized in Va.). To be state recognized in NC and Va means something as their standards are not easily met. This website is run by people who are not state recognized, but specific members of state recognized groups recognize them as being of Saponi/Tutelo/Monacan heritage based on genealogy.

Hello Vance,

There has been some discussion of this both here at NAFPS, and I've discussed it with Richard as well.

Opinions differ, but as near as I can make out from the oral histories and the archaeological record, the Monacan accompanied the Lenape on their migration east due to the climate collapse in the west, while the other more southern eastern siouxian peoples accompanied the Mushkogean peoples during their migrations at the same time due to the same climate collapse.

One of the interesting things that I saw while traveling on the Roanoke river was how many people clearly had Native American heritage. It appears in prominent families as well, as the first settlers of the Carolinas were European males who fled Jamestown and Williamsburg and intermarried. But due to the racism that was the foundation of slavery, all of this was vigorously denied.

I can't speak to the later refuges many of those peoples found during the conquest, but the Six Nations did keep detailed histories. The book "Red Carolinians" was a good source. The best account of the slaughter of the Andaste and Oconachee I found was in "Century Magazine".

Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: NanticokePiney on January 04, 2010, 04:12:20 am


Opinions differ, but as near as I can make out from the the archaeological record, the Monacan accompanied the Lenape on their migration east due to the climate collapse in the west, while the other more southern eastern siouxian peoples accompanied the Mushkogean peoples during their migrations at the same time due to the same climate collapse.
[/quote]

 What archaeological record??? The ancestors of the Siouian tribes show a migration going from the east to the west in a diagonal line heading northward. The ancestors of the Lenape and other Coastal Algonquians show 3 distinct migrations hundreds of years apart. One directly from the Ohio Valley during the Terminal Archaic. One out of New York during the Early Woodland and one straight down from the North during the Middle-Late Woodland.
  What archaeology are you studying?????
 In another thread you treated the Susquehannocks and Andaste as 2 tribes.  Andaste is just the French name for the Susquehannocks!!!!! :-\ Who did you study Lenape archaeology under and where??? Tony Bonfiglio, Jack Cresson, Ned Heite, Cara Blume, Jay Custer, Mike Stewart, Herb Kraft?? Nobody even knows who you are. ???   
     
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Sparks on November 14, 2022, 02:50:34 pm
The forum at the aove website is great for people who have a "family story" of an Indian ancestor (usually Cherokee).

The people at the forum at the above site do REAL historic research of old documents to discover what hiappened to Indian tribes that have been declared extinct basically, east of the Appalachians, mostly in Virginia and the Carolinas, but also all the adjacent states.

Just checked that this site and its forum are still up and active:

https://saponitown.com/
https://saponitown.com/saponitown-forum/
https://saponitown.com/forum/welcome-saponi-town/
https://saponitown.com/articles/
https://saponitown.com/links/
https://saponitown.com/help/
Title: Re: www.saponitown.com
Post by: Sparks on November 14, 2022, 03:05:57 pm
I found another topic that's mostly about www.saponitown.com (http://www.saponitown.com), and which was also started by Vance_Hawkins):

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=509.0
[Reaching people just learning about their heritage]