NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Moma_porcupine on May 05, 2008, 12:45:37 pm

Title: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 05, 2008, 12:45:37 pm
This group has come up a few times in other threads . They have an ambassador in Germany   .....

http://web.archive.org/web/20040804175908/http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id17.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040804175908/http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id17.htm)
Quote
Tribal Leadership
Chief:  Robert Watson  "Bear Hunter"
Vice Chief:  Timothy Tolbert "Turkey Caller"
Secretary:  Sarah White "Bear Heart Who Sings"
Treasurer: Dobbie Williamson "Cloud Thunder"
Tvstvnvke & Representative to Germany : Larry D. Nichols "Strong Wolf"Tribal Tvstvnvke: Leon Watson

Council Members:                                                                                 
Steve Ford "Screaming Eagle"
Aubrey Freeman "Lone Eagle"
Donnie Thompson "Lightning Bear"
Jeane Nichols "October Moon"
Bobby Tyree "Winddancer"

Registered Agent:
Brenda Tolbert "Emerald Waters"
Tribal Mother:
Diane Watson "Fire Wolf"

Tribal Princes
Erin Ford "Rising Fawn"                                                         


CHIEF ROBERT WATSON  "BEAR HUNTER"
 TRIBAL MOTHER DIANE WATSON "FIRE WOLF"

A picture of a few of the tribal leaders ....
 http://mitglied.lycos.de/langer_frank/newsletter12.htm (http://mitglied.lycos.de/langer_frank/newsletter12.htm)

http://home.arcor.de/muskokee/pow.htm (http://home.arcor.de/muskokee/pow.htm)

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Reception in Untergruppenbach Creek Indians fight for  their rights

 "This day is a step in the  history of our tribe," said visibly moved Strong Wolf.  His real name is Larry Nichols.  He is the brother of Creek-Häuptlings Blue Eyes and lives in Heilbronn.  "We need help so that our American government recognizes as a people," said Nichols, Europe ambassadors of his tribe.   And the official reception nUntergruppenbach show the American leadership that people of other countries recognize the Indians. Mayor Haiber went even further: "If they go back home, you have the certainty that this new found friends."

Does anyone know if the Blackwater Muskokee are recognized as a tribe by the federaly recognized Muskogee /Creek ?  That would seem to be important if they are soliticing politicians in Europe to put presure on the US government to recognize them , and calling themselves ambassadors for their tribe.


The Blackwater Muskogee also seem to be involved in giving Indian names and phoney certifiations to Europeans ...

http://www.nativevue.org/blog/?p=547  (http://www.nativevue.org/blog/?p=547)

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Three thousand people walk past the craft tables, watch my film, and attend the Aztec fire dance presentation. Taking up the largest area is a roped off museum style display with mannequins dressed like plains Indians, and inside the tipi is Berndt Briefs (not his real name).

He turns to me, beats his chest and says something in what sounds like Klingon. He quickly translates, "my name" he says, "is Apple Inside Out." A quick thought runs through my mind of what an apple really is, it's an Indian who is white on the inside and … well, I think you get the picture.

He reaches into his briefcase and pulls out a laminated Indian Name Certificate from the Muskogee Creek Nation, he was named by Chief Larry Nichols of the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee(Heilbronn), Germany.


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Larry Nichols is Muskogee Creek and makes it his job to fight the Indian cliches and those who promote it.

I doubt giving out Indian names to Europeans helps ....

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Chief Larry Nichols says this character never earned the name, "he wanted the name because he felt like his heart was red."

So maybe this certificate was Larry's idea of a joke ? If so, the guy who got it didn't seem to understand that

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Germans are genuinely interested in the Indian culture, so much so that they even taken to learning Indian languages. Larry teaches Creek if there is enough interest.

There have even been people who look Indian but are not Indian, and still claim to be Indian, even so far as to claim to be descendants of Geronimo.

"Some fall for the imposter here." Larry says, "we have caught several imposters. They have their stories worked out right down to the name of their fictional Indian grandparents, and their story is believable and on track with our experiences in residential school, up to the contemporary racism against Indians."

Just because people point out an imposter doesn't mean their claims about themselves are true.

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The German people's only real interest in Indians is the clichè, Indian on horseback. A real Indian is not accepted until he looks like something he's not, a part of the cliché.

In the movie Thunderheart,  the FBI character "Cooch" says that we are a conquered people. But we're not. We're a treatied people, with rights like any independent nation. For co-operation, collaboration and co-existence. Instead we have been intimidated, interferred with, interned and institutionalized.

Chief Nichols says, "There is alot of opportunity for our North American Indian youth, the possibilities are endless."

I recall an elder who spoke at a treaty governance gathering on my reserve. He said, "we are not the descendants of a once proud race of people, we are the same people."

The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?
 
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"So," Chief Nichols says. "The struggle continues, for respect. The opportunity is there for us to represent ourselves as who we are."

But who are these people? Just because they claim to be concerned about respect for Native rights doesn't mean they are a tribe or that they are of American Indian descent.

If these guys are just a bunch of PODIAs claiming to be a tribe and Cheifs claiming to be ambassadors in Europe, that can't be good for  creating respect for the real American Indian people and soverienty of real tribes...   

It sounds like the Blackwater Muskogee also is handing out some kind of memberships to people in Europe claiming to be descended from other tribes . Reportedly it was this group that gave Tonya Billington some kind of tribal membership certificate ...

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1006 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1006)

 
Grey Wolf & Tonya
Reply #35 on: January 20, 2007, 12:49:00 am »
dabosijigwokush
Quote
The Blackwater Tribe of The Lower Mvskokee ring a bell thats whats on you addopation forgies the real name is The Blackwater Band of Lower Mvskokee inc. a 501 c3 club not FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED not STATE RECOGNIZED not FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED a club and that is all not native bye any means

Re: Grey Wolf & Tonya
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2007, 03:07:13 am »
loudcrow
Quote
I contacted the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee regarding the certicates FB has so proudly displayed on his website. They have informed me their tribe (which is actually a clan) perfomed a wedding ceremony for this couple because they had been led to believe T/T/T was American and Cherokee. Although they would not go into any great detail, they told me their was an incident in the UK between this couple and some recognized Native Americans. T/T/T was asked to provide them with proof of her being part American and proof of being Cherokee. When the proof was not presented, they had no other alternative other than to revoke their Honorary Memberships and have since turned their backs on this pair.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 06, 2008, 01:37:17 pm
Nope the Blackwater Band is not officialy recognized by the Federal Gov,yes Francis Billington and Tonya Billington were given 'honorary'membership by the Blackwater clan.Yes the Billingtons assaulted members of the Indian Nations residing overseas and their 'honary membership was revoked as a result and yes Tonya Billington still falsely asserts she is Cherokee.Larry Nicholes does exist as does the Black water Band and many other notable non federaly recognized Bands whom the Indian Nations themselves recognize.Tell me moma,is your query in regard to Larry Nicholes who has attempted to halt the shamastic progress of these two correctly discribed"pains in the ass" The Blackwater Band or the Billingtons themselves?
I raised this matter in my statement to the autonomous sgs,interest groups and charities last year.a statement which was on this site for some reason if memory serves me.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 06, 2008, 02:23:32 pm
Moma Porcupine, I am quite curious about what appears to be insinuations
and I have some questions I would like to ask in regards to your post.

1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?

2. I'm a bit confused about the link to the pictures of their tribal leaders.
    Are we supposed to view the pictures and determine their ethnicity?

3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?

4.  What has made you come to the conclusion the Blackwater Band of
     the Lower Muskokee are not Native American?

You quote:
I recall an elder who spoke at a treaty governance gathering on my reserve. He said, "we are not the descendants of a once proud race of people, we are the same people."

This was a quote made by John "Blackbird" Summers,  Cree, in a rather scathing article he wrote
about German Hobbyists.  Your quote is a small portion of that article and, when taken somewhat
out of context, can be misleading.

Your comment:
The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?

I'm assuming you are Canadian since Americans call them reservations or rez for short.
I didn't realize a tribe needed a reserve (reservation)  in order to be authentic.  I am
assuming you are referring to John "Blackbird" Summer's comment about his reserve.

Your quote:
If these guys are just a bunch of PODIAs ......

I'm not sure what PODIA means. Could you define PODIA  please?

Your quote:
Just because people point out an imposter doesn't mean their claims about themselves are true.

Larry Nichols had 4 lawsuits filed against him in Germany by Henry Reyna
because Larry Nichols had ruined Henry's reputation and wallet by saying he was
not Native American. Henry dropped the first 3 lawsuits but was foolish
enough to proceed with the 4th one. Larry Nichols and Elizabeth Roemer
were required by the German court to produce documents supporting their
claims of being Native American as was Henry Reyna.  Both Larry and
Elizabeth submitted their enrollment cards and genealogy and, during the
course of the trial, their documents were deemed by the German court as
being valid.  Henry's documents consisted of  a note written by his "father"
which simply stated he is Apache and descended from Geronimo. This note was
notarized but held no weight in the German court.  Larry and Elizabeth supplied the German
court with Henry's genealogy (done by Elizabeth) and Henry did not
protest or state the genealogy was incorrect. The judge simply did not believe
Geronimo hooked up with Henry's great-great grandmother (age 21)
at age 73  and sent her off to Mexico with the horses when he learned
of her pregnancy so she and the baby would be safe.  As far as I know, both
Larry Nichols and Elizabeth Roemer are well-respected within the Native American
community both at home and in Europe and have always been on the front line fighting
for the rights of all Natives. If you have information to the contrary, please share that with us.

Indeed, the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee presented
T/T/T and Francis Billington with honorary membership certificates.
This is NOT a tribal membership and offers no benefits whatsover.
Their honorary memberships have been revoked because of T/T/T's
failure,  after numerous requests, to produce documents which
support her claim of being American and Cherokee.  Now I don't
claim to be up to date on every thread/post here, but  I believe
we are waiting for Mrs. Billington to meet with Zoi Lightfoot with
her birth certificate and/or passport.  I could be wrong, but I
don't think Mrs. Billington has responded to Zoi's request which was
made over 3 weeks ago.  Perhaps Zoi will read this post and can
update us about the status of this requested meeting.

You quote:
The Blackwater Tribe of The Lower Mvskokee ring a bell thats whats on you addopation forgies the real name is The Blackwater Band of Lower Mvskokee inc. a 501 c3 club not FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED not STATE RECOGNIZED not FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED a club and that is all not native bye any means

This was a post made by someone who signed in as guest and seems to
think the Blackwater Band is a club and is not native. How much credibility
should be given to someone who does not identify themselves, does
a drive-by and offers no proof of his own claims?  Do Natives HAVE to be
state and/or federally recognized in order to be Native? If so, I'll let the Natives
in Virginia know they aren't Native :).

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 06, 2008, 02:58:18 pm
I can indeed comfirm that as Francis and Tonya Billington are dropping in and reading this site,I did indeed respond to their PM to myself publicaly on this site,whereby I made it clear i would not meet them and them alone at some vague cafe in London UK.That I expected ALL parties to gather up their paperwork and meet me face to face.The Blackwater Band can and has a right to speak for itself.To date Mr and Mrs Billington have not taken me up on this.However if anyone else is curious as to who I AM talking about,please take the time to look through the Grey Wolf and Tonya thread.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: crazyeagle on May 06, 2008, 03:40:24 pm
I am genuinely curious Moma Porcupine as to your interest in the Blackwater Band, as to date I have not seen or heard of any fraudulent activities there in the US or Germany.But you do seem to have an avid interest going on with them..is it idle curiousity or do you have information which pertains to this particular Nation and its people as I fail to see where this thread is going?

Linda Lou

 
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 07, 2008, 12:20:29 am
1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?
...

3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?


Momma P has been here quite a bit longer, so unless you were to check back through the archives, you probably would not be aware of one thing:

Some exploiters tell Europeans that they are official "ambassadors" of their tribes, and in some cases the tribes are themselves not real either. The Washitaws, for example. And some time ago, Annika reported an exploiter who passed himself off as a "tribal ambassador" in Sweden. Again, both of those happened some time ago.

If you're talking about NDNs being ambassadors in the same sense that all visitors are ambassadors when they travel or live abroad, then I see your point. But Larry Nichols is clearly not claiming to be that. If you mean an actual official post in an actual tribal govt, I have to say I've never heard of one, and don't think any of the tribes with fed recog have them, in Europe or anywhere else.

I realize some activists and activist groups do work with Europeans, urging them to pass resolutions through the European parliament or UN. I met some of those same people when I traveled over there myself. But again, I don't know of a single tribal govt with fed recog who has an official post with someone devoted to doing that.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 07, 2008, 04:29:01 am
zoi lightfoot
Quote
Larry Nicholes does exist as does the Black water Band and many other notable non federaly recognized Bands whom the Indian Nations themselves recognize.

I think that is the most important point- whether their closest federally recognized relatives say "Yes this is a tribe". But I don't just mean a few eccentric individuals. When these unrecognized tribes are real , it is something almost every member of the federally recognized tribe acknowledges. If the Muskogee Blackwater band has this recognition it is probably legit. I'm just not sure it does .

Quote
Tell me moma,is your query in regard to Larry Nicholes who has attempted to halt the shamastic progress of these two correctly discribed"pains in the ass" The Blackwater Band or the Billingtons themselves?

My query was about the Black water band .

Quote
I raised this matter in my statement to the autonomous sgs,interest groups and charities last year.a statement which was on this site for some reason if memory serves me.

Yes I think that statement and some questions it raised are here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0)

Zoi i'm curious, as you have mentioned being a legal advisor ...are you actually a lawyer with a law degree and you are licenced to practice law ? Or do you just do some sort of free lance advocacy work ?     

loudcrow
Quote
1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?

I don't agree that people of distanty ancestry (PODIAs) who are mostly non native are really "Native Americans", and I definently don't agree that people of distant ancestry who are mostly non native and have not been a part of a continuosly existing tribal community  have a right to represent themselves as a Nation in Europe.

Quote
2. I'm a bit confused about the link to the pictures of their tribal leaders.
    Are we supposed to view the pictures and determine their ethnicity?

No, not in itself. It's just one clue.

Another major clue is here;

http://web.archive.org/web/20040804181648/theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id18.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040804181648/theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id18.htm)

 
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BLACKWATER  BAND  OF   LOWER MVSKOKEES   
    During the removal of 1838, many American Indians had to hide to escape being sent to Oklahoma. Many tried to enter the population as mulatto, French and as black. Of these, many were taken in and helped by some of the white settlers and some were taken in and treated as slaves.

    Many from Alabama and Georgia fled to Florida to hide in the deep woods and swamps. Not all who came to Florida went to the peninsular. Some stayed in the panhandle with friends and relatives that would hide them, and some simply survived in the wilderness.

     As years passed, the white population did not fear the Indians as much and soon ignored them when they would see them. Some were lucky enough to find work and some lucky enough to gain a piece of property and farm. Soon, the whites began to intermarry again with the Indians as many had done before the removal.

     Most of Indian descent tried to hide that fact and would not teach their children the old ways. They had to "BE WHITE" in order, or so they thought, to keep from being sent to Oklahoma. This belief continues on even today with many of Indian descent.

    Many of us have learned of our heritage and we are trying to live as such. We practice the language and participate in many cultural activities. Some of us may have light hair and blue eyes, but we are Indian. We may not be 100% blood, but we all have proven our linage back to American Indians before the removal.


loudcrow
Quote
3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?
I don't think it's wrong if the issues are truly issues that concern real American Indian people and real tribal Nations. I do think it is wrong if the issues being represented are the interests of people who are only of distant descent and are mostly non native. That would be one more instance of non native people displacing Native people and voices.

Quote
4.  What has made you come to the conclusion the Blackwater Band of
     the Lower Muskokee are not Native American?

I haven't come to that conclusion -- though based on what I see,  they look and sound like they are probably the same as many other groups of people with some possible  distant ancestry who have got together and declared themselves a tribe.

I don't know any Native people on this side of the water, who support that sort of behavior.   I'm sure there are always a few who support anything, but for the most part it just seems really presumptuous and disrespectful. More information on these "new " tribes and how they affect the real tribes is here;

http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/News/News.aspx?StoryID=2389 (http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/News/News.aspx?StoryID=2389)

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0)

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0)

Loud crow
Quote
Your comment:
The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?

I'm assuming you are Canadian since Americans call them reservations or rez for short.
I didn't realize a tribe needed a reserve (reservation)  in order to be authentic.  I am
assuming you are referring to John "Blackbird" Summer's comment about his reserve.

I was quoting a statement made by what appears to be Larry Nichols, and I also thought it was odd an American would call it a reserve . Maybe I misunderstood who made the comment - but it did sound like it was Larry talking.   

Quote
I'm not sure what PODIA means. Could you define PODIA  please?

People of Distant Indian Ancestry
loudcrow
Quote
Larry Nichols had 4 lawsuits filed against him in Germany by Henry Reyna
because Larry Nichols had ruined Henry's reputation and wallet by saying he was
not Native American.
(continues...)
I don't know if these people have some Native ancestry , how much ancestry they have or  if the Black Water Muskogee might deserve federal recognition. These isssues are complex and I don't think it is up to a German Court to decide these matters. I would like to know what the federally recognized Muskogee have to say as IMO they are the only rightful authorities on who constitutes a member of the Muskogee Nation. I don't see how whatever anyone does as a Native rights activist should have any bearing on whether they are Native or should be recognized as a tribe. That is a whole different issue . 

Besides the fake Indian names and  membership certificates , the only reason I have concerns about this group is that  when non native people ( or PODIAS ) move into positions of authority they are not entitled to and take over the identities and displace real Native people, it confuses and undermines the recognition of real American Indian Nations. Just because some people look more credible than something that would be found in a circus side show, doesn't mean they are legit, and in fact, it is those who look legit who often do the most damage.

I find your acceptence of people claiming to be Cheifs and tribes and ambassadors to be puzzling when you are so offended by Tonya Billington . I am not saying i think what Tonya Billington is doing is OK, and she is obviously not who she tries to say she is, but as far as I can see, the claims made by the many groups like the Blackwater Muskogee - if they are not extremely well founded- do much more real damage to recognition and respect for tribal soveientythan the Billingtons ever will .

Quote
How much credibility should be given to someone who does not identify themselves, does
a drive-by and offers no proof of his own claims? 

I take everything posted here with a grain of salt, but from what I have seen at least 19 out of every 20 groups claiming to be a tribe that is just now coming out of hiding , are at best a bunch of presumptuous PODIAs  . The evidence that mtDNA is providing seems to be showing that almost 9 out of 10 of the people who were told great great grandma was an Indian were told wrong , which probably means , on average, that about 9 out of 10 people claiming to be a PODIA are actually completely non native . More information can be found in the thread below.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0   (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0)

Quote
Do Natives HAVE to be
state and/or federally recognized in order to be Native?


I feel a lot of sympathy for PODIAs and I think depending on family and community circumstances, it is possible for people to have only a drop of Native blood and for this to be an important part of who they are.

When PODIAs use this drop to support Native rights and the proper authority and leadership of the federally recognized, continuously existing tribes , I think thats great.
When they use this drop to try and reconstruct a culture they know only small parts of, or they use this drop to set themselves up as political entities or to discount and displace the authority of long standing First Nations leaders , I think this is an act of colonization on the part of people who are mostly non native and I think this is wrong.   

Ya know the saying = it's not how big it is but what is done with it that counts ...

Crazy eagle   
Quote
I am genuinely curious Moma Porcupine as to your interest in the Blackwater Band, as to date I have not seen or heard of any fraudulent activities there in the US or Germany.

IMO claiming to be a Chief or ambassador of a Muskogee band that isn't recognized as such by the federally recognized Muskogee would be a fraudulent activitiy - though I am still not sure where the federally recognized Muskogee stand on this group. I also think non recognized groups claiming to be tribes giving out honourary memberships and Indian names in Europe comes pretty close to a being a fraudulent activity , but that is just my opinion.   

Quote
But you do seem to have an avid interest going on with them..is it idle curiousity or do you have information which pertains to this particular Nation and its people as I fail to see where this thread is going?

Well actually I see Zoi Lightfoot posting here , and she says she represents the IIC to the UN and this questionable Blackwater Muskogee band is a memebr of the IIC . As I believe these groups of PODIAs confuse and undermine recognition of real Native people and Nations , I am thinking this is something folks might want to consider...

Which is why I started the thread...

If you all live overseas maybe this is stuff you just haven't run across to the same degree people over here have ...

From some of the other thread I posted links to above you can see this is a general concern I have posted on many times before.

Sorry this is so long ...
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 11:10:53 am
Up until seven years ago when I began checking the paperwork of these so called 'Ambassadors' I would have agreed with educatedindians comments 100%.But sadly our Nations and their leadership do not require the permission nor do they require to notify anyone if they take the Sovereign position they name and nominate their own Ambassadors.
For every ten fakes there is a genuine Ambassador(mostly active are the Lakota Nation) with official tribal authorization in place to be recognized as such.Rosebud for instance has Melvin Custer Jordan in the Netherlands like him or loath him (he's a bit of a twinkie magnet) he's Rosebuds choice and unless you are from Rosebud,we cannot question that until the guy stuffs up.He's far from unique.
Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians.Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN. Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 12:40:34 pm
Ps I am not British Moma I am just based here and spend as much time AT HOME as i do in europe,when the nations no longer have need of me then i go home that simple.I presume if folks spend time out here such as the indigenous working committee at the UN or IITC for instance then we are no longer 'in touch' and therefore unqualified to comment on anything? Interesting but naive in the extreeme
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 07, 2008, 12:48:16 pm
Quote
Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?

I think part of where I got that impression is here;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0)

 
Quote
Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK 

from the first post
Zoi Lightfoot
Quote
Our Peoples overseas are not just a “few??? Indians scattered across Europe, the IIC represents approximately one eighth of our combined sovereign nations populous residing overseas

Quote
Larry D. Nichols IIC member based in Germany.

Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 11:45:31 am »   
crazyeagle
Quote
OK..IIC stands for International Intertribal Community...this is merely another way of saying ex-pat natives

I think it has been mentioned befor that you represent the IIC and as the Blackwater band is part of the IIC that you represent them and people like them seems a logical conclusion.  You yourself just said you represent people like and including the Blackwater Muskokee .

Zoi Lightfoot
Quote
I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians
 


Quote
Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN.


Is there any way people could verify that? Is there a website that lists you as a part of a law firm or private practice? When I do a search on your name , nothing comes up except your posts in NAFPS and your involvment in bringing awareness to the plight of Leonard Peltier.

Quote
Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.

I don't make any claims about myself so there is nothing that needs to be verified . I am careful to provide links so people can see if what I say about the issues is true , and people can find whatever might be of value in my own opinions, without knowing details of who I am or how I got my particular point of view. Lots of people here are anonymous and ask questions. Why do you only protest to that when it is people you support who are being asked the questions? If people have nothing to hide I doubt these questions about claims people make, would feel confrontational. I have been giving you the benifit of the doubt thinking maybe because you live overseas you just aren't aware of some of the issues with these so called tribes of PODIAs.

Is there a particular person on the federally recognized Muskogee tribal council people could contact to verify if they recognize the Blackwater band? Is there someone on the tribal council that could confirm that  the federally recognized Muskogee support Larry Nichols to acting as an ambassador in Europe?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 01:12:14 pm
I repeat just for the hard of hearing.
The Blackwater Band/clan has its own voice and I challange you to state EXACTLY where I said I represent the Blackwater Band.Once again WHO ARE YOU moma?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 07, 2008, 01:23:08 pm
I repeat just for the hard of hearing.
The Blackwater Band/clan has its own voice and I challange you to state EXACTLY where I said I represent the Blackwater Band.Once again WHO ARE YOU moma?

LOL Zoi, EXACTLY where did I say you represent the Blackwater Band -without fully explaining how I arrived at this conclusion?

Does your response mean you can't name anyone in the federally recognized Muskogee tribal council who would vouche for these people ? If so, don't expect me to be supportive of a group that may be colonizing their identity . This is getting silly. I gotta go to work. Have a good day.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 07, 2008, 01:47:00 pm

Up until seven years ago when I began checking the paperwork of these so called 'Ambassadors' I would have agreed with educatedindians comments 100%.But sadly our Nations and their leadership do not require the permission nor do they require to notify anyone if they take the Sovereign position they name and nominate their own Ambassadors.
For every ten fakes there is a genuine Ambassador(mostly active are the Lakota Nation) with official tribal authorization in place to be recognized as such.Rosebud for instance has Melvin Custer Jordan in the Netherlands like him or loath him (he's a bit of a twinkie magnet) he's Rosebuds choice and unless you are from Rosebud,we cannot question that until the guy stuffs up.He's far from unique.


I'm not too clear about what you're saying in your answer. At first you claim they don't require anyone's permission, but then you say they actually have it.

I did check your claim that the Lakota have many ambassadors over in Europe. It's sometimes not clear.
http://www.thejordantradingpost.com/lakotaphylosophy.htm

He's a dancer that describes himself as the Ambassador to Denmark in one section, but doesn't mention it at all in his bio. Again, no sign of him actually working for the tribal govt, just doing his dances for Europeans.

The Rosebud tribal govt site has no mention of ambassadors.
http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/govt.htm

I suppose it's quite possible that there is a council of traditionalists who asked him to think of himself as an ambassador.

Joseph Chasing Horse also often gets listed as Lakota ambassador to the UN. Ironically I haven't found that listed at either UN sites or Lakota ones, but only at NASA websites when he did some science consulting work for them. It seems what he actually did was be part of a delegation of over 180 Native reps for a presentation to the UN on global warming.

Activists, yes. Doing important work, yes. Actual ambassadors the way most national govts understand them to be, fulltime working at embassies on official relations between nation-states, etc, no.

At least one claiming to be Lakota ambassador looks suspicious. Nikos White Feather is largely an artist. Besides claiming to be ex Lakota ambassador, on another site he only claims to be "flying Greek/Cherokee" and a "student of shamanism".
 http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=23282539
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 01:56:23 pm
What i am actualy saying is Rosebud has its own authorised 'Ambassador' as such Rosebud doesn't need or require our 'permission' no more no less nor do I disagree with the rest of what you say.However you yourself have stated Larry Nicholes HAS NOT claimed to be an Ambassador,nor have we ever heard him mention this position in europe.However in response to Moma Porcupines assumptions Larry Nicholes who is at work at the moment,called to state I will have the paperwork from the Fed recognized tribe AND his e mailed to me by the end of the day at which point it will be posted on NAPFS.
Sorry Al but I still want to know who Moma is
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 07, 2008, 02:03:38 pm
However you yourself have stated Larry Nicholes HAS NOT claimed to be an Ambassador,nor have we ever heard him mention this position in europe.However in response to Moma Porcupines assumptions Larry Nicholes who is at work at the moment,called to state I will have the paperwork from the Fed recognized tribe AND his e mailed to me by the end of the day at which point it will be posted on NAPFS.
Sorry Al but I still want to know who Moma is

Actualluy I said the exact opposite, that Nicholes does seem to be claiming to be an official ambassador for the tribal govt.

Glad to see the paperwork will be posted, thanks.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 02:17:53 pm
No problem,as I said to moma p the Blackwater Band speak for themselves as do the federaly recognised bands who apparently recognize them.Though I guess we all get to confirm that one way or another when they are posted,burning question has to be is Moma gonna post hers if she wants confirmation of my existance,i am more than willing to indulge her.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on May 07, 2008, 03:25:25 pm
may i help on this confusion

Federally Recognized Tribes
Muscogee (Creek) Nation, Oklahoma

Petitions for Federal Recognition

032 Muscogee Nation of Florida
c/o Mr. John C. B. Thomas (904) 835-2078
P.O. Box 3028
Bruce, FL 3245 
Formerly Florida Tribe of Eastern Creek Indians
 Letter of Intent to Petition 06/02/1978
Awaiting Active Consideration. All documents have been filed with BAR.
 

008 Lower Muskogee Creek Tribe - East of the Mississippi, Inc. c/o Mrs. Marian S. McCormick (912) 762-3165
Route 2, Box 370
Whigham, GA 31797 Letter of Intent to Petition 02/02/1972
Declined to Acknowledge 12/21/1981 46 FR 51652
 
State Recognized Tribes

Star Clan of Muscogee Creeks
242 County Road 2254
Troy, AL 36079
(334) 285-2491

The Lower Muscogee Creek Tribe
Route 2, Box 370
Whigham, Georgia 31797

Muscogee Nation of Florida
Formerly Florida Tribe of Eastern Creek Indians
PO Box 3028
Bruce, FL 32455
(850) 835 2078
FAX (850) 835 5691

Tribes by State

FLORIDA

Seminole Tribe of Florida
Miccosukee Tribe .

FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED

Creeks E. of the Mississippi
Florida Tribe of E. Creeks
Topachula Tribe
Oklewaha Band of Seminoles
Tuscola United Cherokee Tribe of Florida, Inc
Perdido Bay Tribe of Lower Muscogee Creeks

GEORGIA

FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED

Cane Break Band of E. Cherokees
Cherokees of Georgia, Inc.
Georgia Tribe of E. Cherokees
Lower Muskogee Creek Tribe- E. of the Mississippi
S.E. Cherokee Confederacy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

MUSCOGEE NATION OF FLORIDA INC
PO BOX 3028
BRUCE , FL 32455   

 
 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL INFORMATION

Who We Are
PRESERVING CREEK INDIAN CULTURE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This organization is a 501(c)(3) Public Charity.
This organization is required to file an IRS Form 990 or 990-EZ.
Contributions are deductible, as provided by law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NTEE Code
C30—Natural Resource Conservation and Protection

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ruling Year: 1985
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOWER MUSCOGEE CREEK TRIBE EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI INC
 

Take a look at the future ... See our beta report >
Whigham, GA 31797

NTEE Code: Z99 (Unknown)

NORTH BAY CLAN OF THE LOWER CREEK MUSCOGEE TRIBE INC
 

Take a look at the future ... See our beta report >
Lynn Haven, FL 32444

NTEE Code: A50 (Museum & Museum Activities)


hopes this helps
so why is everything about this in europe spelled wrong
muskogee?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 03:56:09 pm
Thanks for that dabosijigwokush
Cannot speak for everyone grammer,not even my own at times,but that info is handy,because as soon as I get this paperwork I have been told I will be sent,then we can all see for our selves what is what without anyone jumping to conclusions,presumptions or assumptions in a fair and balanced way.Momma I suggest you pm me and tell me what your problem is.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on May 07, 2008, 05:15:09 pm
what i did find was

The Blackwater Tribe of The Lower Mvskokee ring a bell thats whats on you addopation forgies the real name is The Blackwater Band of Lower Mvskokee inc. a 501 c3 club not FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED not STATE RECOGNIZED not FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED a club and that is all not native bye any means

the blackwater band of lower mvskokee was a 501 c3, but it looks like they let there non profit statis run out
you have to renew every 5 years

and it was spelled mvskokee?
that is why i thought it was strange!
did not match any regersted nations any where in the usa
and the addopation forgies i got off there web page
they to were missspelled
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 07, 2008, 05:54:22 pm
cannot answer that,they are not 'my' papers,I guess we will all get to see when i get them.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: wredgranny on May 08, 2008, 01:21:07 am

  Siyo to all,I would like to say something about this posting and a "seeming" not knowing much about REAL Native First Peoples as being "Ambassadores",to other countries. From the very firts there have been such Ambassadores,some "famous" some moving more quietly behind the "scenes" of Europe to gain recognition for our Peoples,and our rights and mistreatments by the "colonials" who came here. Once again Mama Porcupine it seems to me you like to paint my Peoples as "backward",ignorant,savages,with out the abilities to be such ambassadores. Once again you dismiss without reguard the service render this country by the Native First Peoples soldiers who served in EVERY war of this country,sometimes most sadly leaving behind children in those countries,and wether YOU like it or not,they ARE of Native decent. You continue to show disrespect to my Peoples,treating us as stupid unknowing children,WE know who and what are kin,we do NOT need you,someone who will not even give a name to tell us who we are. It has become more and more apperant to me you are NOT of Native heritage,of ANY of our Nations,nor do you know "blood know" what those of us raised in our heritage know without asking,or thinking. YOU,an unknown,have NO right,to question the heritage or motives even of ANY other human,be they Native or non. I have read your every posting on this board and say WITHOUT fear,you are NOT of Native heritage,anything you "know",has been learned through a Euros eyes,you do NOT have the same mind/thinking of my Peoples!
in "Respect"
granny



http://www.nativevoices.org/articles/clips/ambasodor.htm


http://www.aio.org/programs.html
http://www.molokaitimes.com/articles/7921191840.asp

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ546399&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ546399


http://www.hud.gov/offices/pih/ih/codetalk/planet/learn_college.html

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/ambassadors/saving_a_heritage


http://www.reznetnews.org/article/ambassadors/saving_a_heritage

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/ambassadors/saving_a_heritage





Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on May 08, 2008, 04:37:36 am
Wredgranny, no disrespect, but I think they are talking of a certain group and individual/or individuals. They are not talking of the Ambassdor Program of present or what has been in the successful in the past.  That's why many of these type of posts are put under Research Needed. So they can be discussed. Thank  you for your information on the Ambassador Programs. That's hellpful. But we ustry to stay away from the personal issues.. Thanks.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: crazyeagle on May 08, 2008, 07:01:54 am
Actually, as I have been conversing with Moma I have to say I agree with Wredgranny..

I am annoyed to say the least when Moma thinks naively that because the ex-pats are in Europe we dont know what is going on back home as well as in our own backyard here in Europe.Plus when the attacks happened on ex-pats I get very annoyed when there is no reason for this. The ex-pat community is a strong one and has had to be.

We have the same problem with PODIAS as you guys do, there is even a "Scottish Cherokee Clan" here in the UK and we meet many of these people who claim to have distant blood ties with the nations. In some cases it may be true but in many it is not. We would say approximately an 8th of the nations population live in Europe,thats a lot of the nations people,whether in the military,by adoption,war babies or just for a better/optional life. 

There is such a thing as lines of communication like the telephone and internet moma and all ex-pats are in contact with their respective nations and others on a regular basis. I would suggest in future if you wish to know about what is happening with the ex-pats in europe,many of whom do a lot of work over here,that you PM them privately instead of making such sweeping comments.

k..finished..had to say my piece...there is a cut off point where we in Europe will only stand so much from one who refuses to even say what Nation they are from...the only people we need to justify ourselves to is our own Nations and Creator.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 08, 2008, 10:17:37 am
As promised two documents were sent to me this morning from Larry Nicholes as we are having diffuculty sending these,we are asking one of NAPFS senoir administrators to post these for us.
Now Moma I take it you have Leonard Peltiers current adress and prison number,if not let me know and I shall be happy to supply those for you,as you have brought his name up on this site you can ask him who I am,I take it Leonard needs no verification from any of you?
There are more documents relating to Larry Nicholes,which he is at this time not going to send until such time as Momma Porcupine has the decency to identify herself correctly to those she challanges.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 08, 2008, 12:55:31 pm
I'm not sure what would be in documents that would prove a tribe that is not recognized by the federal government is recognized by other ferderally recognized Muskogee tribes , but if you have something that might help confirm this I'm sure posting it would help.

I wasn't asking if these people can prove they have some Native descent, and proving they do won't make any difference to the problems of PODIAs getting together and demanding to be recognized as a tribe and a political entity .

What would be helpful is if some people in the tribal councils of one of the federally recognized tribes below, who recognize the Blackwater Muskogee coud be named, I could then email that tribe and ask for a reply from that person and would have proof of a federally recognized tribe supporting the claims of the Black water Muskogee , which I would be happy to post.

A list of federally recognized tribes which are related to the Muskogee are below;     

Creek Nation of Oklahoma
P.O. Box 580
Okmulgee, OK 74447-0580
918-756-8700
FAX 758-1434

Creek Nation of Oklahoma
Alabama-Quassarte Tribal Town
P.O. Box 537
111 N. 6th St.
Henrietta, OK 74437-0537
918-652-8708
FAX 652-8708

Creek Nation of Oklahoma
Kialegee Tribal Town
318 S. Washita
P.O. Box 332
Wetumka, OK 74883-0332
405-452-3262
FAX 452-3413

Creek Nation of Oklahoma
Thlopthlocco Tribal Town
P.O. Box 706
Okemah, OK 74859-0706
918-623-2620 FAX 623-0419

Miccosukee Business Committee
P.O. Box 440021
Tamiami Station
Miami, FL 33144
305-223-8380 or 223-8383
FAX 305-223-1011

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
5811 Jack Springs Road
Atmore, AL 36502
334-368-9136 FAX 368-4502

 I actually did email one of these Nations a while back asking about the Blackwater band but so far they haven't got back to me. If I hear from them and have permission to post it i will let folks know.
Zoi
Quote
There are more documents relating to Larry Nicholes,which he is at this time not going to send until such time as Momma Porcupine has the decency to identify herself correctly to those she challanges.

I just see this as a red herring . As far as I am aware , I have not made any claims about myself that need verification. If I have made claims that seem questionable, or if in any way something I have said that you can quote seems to undermine recognition and respect for Native identities, culture or soverienty , you are welcome to start a thread on me in research needed. However... if you have no substantial concerns, it would be better if you stopped trying to pull this thread off topic by trying to make it about me. Unless you want to focus on some specific concerns, I probably won't have much more to say about these unwarrented demands and attacks.

I understand you all feel you are so important it is completely outrageous some underling might presume to ask you questions and to verify you and your friends claims, but I have to wonder how you expect Europeans to protect themselves from frauds if they are intimidated from doing this.  It shouldn't matter if I am a pimply teenage boy from Germany typing this from my Mom's basement. Everybody has a right to ask for verification of claims that make people seem like they are important and that involve some sort of position of public trust . 

NAFPS is full of threads discussing groups claiming to be tribes and I am not sure why you think the Blackwater Muskogee is different or why it should be extempt from questions.   

As for me contacting Leonard Peltier - I guess I might - does he have an email ?  - but as I never asked if indeed Zoi is related to him , i'm not sure what the point would be. What I did ask for was if there was a way to verify she is licenced to practice law , assuming  she has the sort of practice that requires a licence, or some on line link that would verify her claims of working as a lawyer at the UN. Why I ask is some stuff that is being claimed here just doesn't seem to add up . And no I don't think I will be PMing Zoi to explain why I am wondering aout this,  as if that isn't alredy obvious i doubt any amount of explaining will change that, and twice in this thread Zoi has claimed people said things they didn't say. I would perfer our communication to be public and for it to be verifiable who said what to whom.   
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: wredgranny on May 08, 2008, 11:30:52 pm
  That,"moma porcupine" is the most inane,coments I have ever read,you do not even know who Leonard Peltier is,and yet "imply" he would LIE for a friend or kin,you are insulting a true Hero,one who has given his WHOLE life for his People,HOW DARE YOU?????? To show us such disrespect is one thing,but to call liar one the finest men to draw breath is beyond forgiving.Exactly who do you think YOU are? This alone would prove you are Euro,only they are so "condesending" to the "savage heathens" they think beneath them. You show no right to speak on our issues,no right to speak to us,you know NOTHING of what it is to be a Native Person,and it is in FACT time for a fraud thread of "intrest" on you. I am sending this to Leonard,and yes,I,can do that,he should see as should MANY of the Nation Elders what you just said,and HOW you said it in your OWN words!
granny


"As for me contacting Leonard Peltier - I guess I might - does he have an email ?  - but as I never asked if indeed Zoi is related to him , i'm not sure what the point would be. What I did ask for was if there was a way to verify she is licenced to practice law , assuming  she has the sort of practice that requires a licence, or some on line link that would verify her claims of working as a lawyer at the UN. Why I ask is some stuff that is being claimed here just doesn't seem to add up . And no I don't think I will be PMing Zoi to explain why I am wondering aout this,  as if that isn't alredy obvious i doubt any amount of explaining will change that, and twice in this thread Zoi has claimed people said things they didn't say. I would perfer our communication to be public and for it to be verifiable who said what to whom.   "
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on May 09, 2008, 04:03:30 am
Why not send the documents to Al then maybe it can be settled?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Freija on May 09, 2008, 07:39:55 am
I´ve read all this and pondered....now, I know nothing about The Blackwater Band, so I just wanted to make a comment on the issue as such.

As Al has already pointed out, I have come across Native people here in Scandinavia claiming to be an ambassadeur or a spokesperson for his people. It is not uncommon as it gives more credibility and the followers tend to gather up. In no case has this claim been true. I took my time once to phone the Tribal Council and they confirmed that the quy in question was no ambassadeur, was not even from the Nation he claimed and had caused considerable damage to the tribe he claimed to be from. Thank Gawd I did not host him, which was his request.

A couple of weeks ago a similar incident occured, so it is still going on!

So what I am saying is that it is important for us here in Europe to be able to verify these claims, whether it comes from individuals or groups posing as "Indians." This must be in the interest of most Natives "across the pond", too as I am sure they would not like to be represented by fakes. NAFPS has always been an excellent source for finding out info. It is not always that easy for us here in Europe to contact people in the US or Canada. Obviously, when we ask questions, sometimes that Native guy/group IS legitimate - so...great!!

Hopefully it will be possible even in the future to ask questions about "ambassadeurs" and "spokespersons" without any hostility. I, for one, am very grateful for the help I´ve got from here!


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: crazyeagle on May 09, 2008, 07:46:02 am
grrrrrrrrrrrr.........ok...I have been trying to post the paperwork on Larry Nichols but one file(the certificate) is too big a file and the other letter is in the wrong format...have to be patient with us guys...I need some techy help on what to do next.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 09, 2008, 10:04:42 am
Here is the first file.  The original  has been altered because I
had to reduce the size in order to post it here. Nothing else
has been changed.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 09, 2008, 10:05:55 am
Here is the second letter. Again, the original has been altered.
I had to reduce the size in order to post it here.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 09, 2008, 10:45:21 am
Now let me spell this out for everyone exactly as I intend it to be heard,this is not a discussion.Larry Nicholes has never given me cause or concern that would warrent my questioning his ethnicity or right at any time to represent the Blackwater Clan. Yet he is a member of the International Intertribal Community as is another member of that specific Clan.The IIC is not "a club/group/etc,it is a recognized ethnic minority presence in the International community.
If anyone has a problem with the Blackwater Clan,then they not the IIC are the ones you should be talking directly to,the details are on the paperwork.
Until such time as someone proves their assumptions,as to why members of the Blackwater Clan residing overseas,should not be accepted and recognized as members of the International community,then my message is simple.Do not interfere in matters that do not concern NAPFS,I am the current director for legal affairs on behalf of the IIC,that is a QUALIFIED position and one the ex patriots themselves have determined me to to be and not one whereby they or myself sought 'permissions' from any NAPFS member outside that International community.
I will remind all of you the Nations and peoples I have personaly represented over the last thirty five years DEMAND I answer to them and account directly to them on matters relating to them.Word to the wise peoples don't gossip,make assumptions or determine everyones guilt by alledged associations,above all make sure someone actualy said or claimed something publicaly before you go castigating them in public,or presuming to 'judge' ANY member of the Indian Nations.Its not clever and it undermines everything NAPFS first set out to do in that presuming the guilt of any Indian until you have evidences to the contrary will alienate you with the wider Indian community.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 09, 2008, 01:14:18 pm
Actually it IS a discussion, Zoi. You can't come in here and essentially make a demand that no one talk about a subject. You don't help things when you try to bark orders at people.

I have no idea why you then demand no one question an organization that has not even BEEN questioned by anyone.

For the docs posted, I realize it took awhile to figure out how to post them. But I'd strongly suggest making a copy of them, then blackening Nichol's DOB out and reposting it. Having his DOB posted online could easily be used for ID theft.

Again, thanks for going to the trouble with the docs, but they still don't answer some of the original questions. I still don't see any sign that the Blackwater are recognized as a tribe by other Muscogee, only that Nichols has descent.

I'm also not sure what to make of "chief in training for honorary members."
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 09, 2008, 02:29:47 pm
Al with respect i mean you nor Napfs any personal offence,but I suggest you read the thread after the NNN statement I made.I didn't post Larry Nicholes paperwork,yet as he joined Napfs yesterday I am sure he can answer any quiries directly.If people have a problem with Black water i suggest they contact them and accertain from them who does or does not recognise them and verify that from there.
What you have is three threads not oneMomas consistant demands for personal answers from Napfs members yet with no recourse apparently for these people to be treated with respects akin to those given out.two;dismissal of the Billingtons as unimportant,two individuals who blatently lie,assault members of the Indian Nations and host the very fakes considered the most dangerous on your own site. and three;the Black water band itself,which Ive already answered.
If I am not permitted to make a demand on this site,and that i can respect,then that applies to everyone across the board of Napfs mmembership AL,no fear or favour yes?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 09, 2008, 04:09:19 pm
For the record, my real name is Elizabeth Roemer. Members of the
Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee are my family. I am doing
my very best to be objective and put my personal feelings aside
regarding this sitation but there are some things which need to
be discussed and clarified.

There is no problem that questions have been asked. The problem is
the way in which the questions have been asked and some of the
comments made by Mama when answers have been given to her.

1. The first item is this post is a list of tribal leaders and their
     natural names. What  gave the impression they are PODIAs
     and/or not Native? Their first names? Their last names? Their
     natural names?

2.  The second item is a link to a photo of tribal leaders. In an earlier
     post, I asked Mama if we were supposed
     to look at these photos and determine the ethnicity of these
     people. Her response was: "No, not in itself. It's just one clue."

3.  Another "clue" we are PODIAs, frauds, phonies, etc. is
     the very brief history about my people. Fair enough. Where is
     the proof this information is a lie, misleading, etc.

4. I asked if Mama had come to the conclusion Native Americans
     residing in Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors
     for their people. This was her answer:  "I don't agree that people of
     distanty ancestry (PODIAs) who are mostly non native are really
    "Native Americans", and I definently don't agree that people of distant
    ancestry who are mostly non native and have not been a part of a
    continuosly existing tribal community  have a right to represent
    themselves as a Nation in Europe." To me, this answer sounds
    again, like she is calling me and my family PODIAs, has assumed
    none of the family grew up together in a Native  community
    and is insinuating we are no longer in contact with our family and/or
    nation because we reside in Europe..

I was the one who posted the 2 letters on this site. It wasn't Zoi.
Those letters were not altered in any way other than having had
their size reduced.  Those letters will not be altered in any way
because I do not want to next be accused of falsifying documents.

Now you know who I am and who my people are. Take a look at
the letter from Poarch Band .... a federally recognized tribe.  Does it
or does it not say Larry is sixth generation Creek? If he is Creek
according to that letter and the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee are his family does that or does that not also make
them Creek?

I am not going to nitpick with anyone right now with how Muskokee
is properly spelled, whether or not we are official Ambassadors and
whether or not we have business offices, a staff, etc. or anything
else not directly related to the issue at hand. Are my people/family
Native or not? Are we PODIAs or not? Are we a bunch of frauds
or not?

Since Mama has refused to tell us which nation she is from, no
further information about my family will be given out.

Let the Nations judge for themselves.

Liz Roemer


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 09, 2008, 09:04:53 pm
If people have a problem with Black water i suggest they contact them and accertain from them who does or does not recognise them and verify that from there.

What you have is three threads not one Momas consistant demands for personal answers from Napfs members yet with no recourse apparently for these people to be treated with respects akin to those given out.

two;dismissal of the Billingtons as unimportant,two individuals who blatently lie,assault members of the Indian Nations and host the very fakes considered the most dangerous on your own site.

and three; the Black water band itself,which Ive already answered.


I separated your points to make them clearer, but didn't alter them.

The paperwork posted was supposed to show that Blackwater was recognized as a Muscogee tribe by the federally recognized Muscogee. So far we haven't seen that, just excuses.

Moma P simply asked the same thing I am asking now, for clear answers. And for that, there have been a lot of attempts to distract people from those original questions. As was pointed out in another thread, the rancor and anger of those being questioned doesn't help them at all, just the opposite.

The Billingtons were absolutely NOT dismissed as unimportant. If you think so I suggest you go back to the thread on them, with all the research done on them and the subsequent long series of attacks they made. And of course you know that last part, because it was people you knew who were among those being attacked.

And three: No, that hasn't been answered, as I said at the start of this post. Does Blackwater have recognition as a fellow Muscogee tribe by already recognized Muscogee tribes? A paper saying Nichols has ancestry doesn't address that.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 09, 2008, 10:09:57 pm
Al, I don't know what gave you the impression the papers would should
the Blackwater Band is recognized by a federally recognized tribe. Zoi
Lightfoot has already asked you contact them and ask that question
yourself.  I am asking you to do the same. Contact them yourselves.

6173 N. Stewart Street
Milton, Florida 32570
(850) 626-3380

Zoi Lightfoot is NOT the legal representative of the Blackwater Band of
the Lower Muskokee and has never claimed to be. Two of its members (former as far as enrollment cards go) are members of the IIC: me (Liz
Roemer) and my cousin, Larry Nichols.  Zoi Lightfoot has no authority to
speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee. She
does have the authority to speak on behalf of myself and Larry Nichols.
Any questions you have concerning the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee should be addressed to them.

If you don't wish to contact the Blackwater Band and ask them
questions,  here is the address and telephone number of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians. Call and ask them if they do or do not recognize Blackwater Band and/or its members.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
5811 Jack Springs Road
Atmore, AL 36502
334-368-9136 FAX 368-4502

To the best of my knowledge, the Poarch Band of Creek Indians
will only allow residents of the state of Alabama to be eligible for
enrollment at this time.

Liz Roemer
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 09, 2008, 10:20:33 pm
Oh brother...

That's still doing everything possible to avoid answering the questions.

It's very simple Liz. Do you or Nichols have any proof that Blackwater are recognized or not? Don't push this question off by insisting I call up anyone. You should already know.

My guess is that you don't and will do anything to avoid answering the question.

Unless you prove otherwise, I'd say we should consider Blackwater a heritage group.

I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: LittleOldMan on May 09, 2008, 11:00:57 pm
This is what the Poarch Bands Constitution has to say.     ARTICLE I - MEMBERSHIP

Section 1. Eligibility

Membership of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians shall consist of:

(A) All persons enumerated as Indian on the following official documents:

(1) 1870 U.S. Census of Escambia County, Alabama

(2) 1900 U.S. Census of Escambia County, Alabama and

(3) 1900 U.S. Special Indian Census of Monroe County, Alabama.

NOTE: For the purpose of computing blood quantum of their decedents, for tribal membership, all Indians eligible under Section 1(A) are hereby declared as fullblood (4/4) Creek Indians and shall constitute the base roll of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

(B) All living descendants of those eligible under Section 1(A) of at least one fourth (1/4) degree Indian blood, provided they are not enrolled as members of any other tribe, group or band of Indians.

(C) All children of at least one-fourth (1/4) degree of Indian blood born to an enrolled member of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Section 2. Powers of to Determine Membership

he sole authority to determine membership of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians. No decree of any Court purporting to determine membership in the Poarch Hand of Creek Indians, paternity, or degree of Creek Indian or other blood shall be recognized as determination of membership in the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Section 3. Membership Ordinance

The Tribal Council shall enact an ordinance establishing procedures for processing membership matters including application procedures and blood degree corrections of the roll as provided in Article I, Section I of this Constitution, within six months of the First Tribal Council's Election to office under this Constitution. That ordinance shall contain procedures, including the right of appeal.

Section 4. Adoption and Loss of Membership

The Tribal Council shall have the power to prescribe rules and regulations governing the adoption of members and loss of membership
"LittleOldMan"
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on May 09, 2008, 11:03:17 pm
i dont know how to put this but heres what i find
the address of the blackwater muskokee tribe


Ron's Place Pawn & Gun
6173 Stewart St
Milton, FL 32570 Map

(850) 626-3380  Review This Business!

ron's place has many stores in many states , check the yellow pages
photos of the address show a sign and a parking lot with a store

wheres the nation's band office
for that matter wheres the nation
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 09, 2008, 11:20:10 pm
I will answer some of the questions that have been asked
because I want this matter ENDED and SOON. I also have
some comments I am going to make.

1. The  German newspaper/magazine/whatever article
    states "said Nichols, Europe ambassadors of his tribe". At
    that time, Larry Nichols was, indeed, the Ambassador
    for the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee. He was also
    our Tvstvn'ke (War Chief). However,  since  Larry and/or myself
    are no longer enrolled members,  that document is null and void.
     
2. Larry Nichols HAS NEVER given Indian names to Europeans
    to the very best of the knowledge.  Someone else gave him the
    man in question his  name and Larry simply commented on the name.
    Ya can't believe everything you  hear on tv, radio, etc. and you can't
    believe everything you read  in a magazine, newspaper or
    the Internet.

3.  If the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee or any other
      clan/tribe/nation decided to give someone an honorary
     membership, that is their business.  None of our business!

4.  Are we or are we not clear about whether or not Larry Nichols
     is sixth generation Creek Indian? According to the document from
    Poarch Band, he is.

5.  Indeed, the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee gave honorary
     membership cards to Tanja and Francis Billington based upon her
     assertions of being Cherokee. We were foolish enough to believe
     her and were foolish enough to wait 3 years or more for her to
     produce documents (birth certificate, passport, genealogy, etc)
     which would  validate her claims. We're still waiting. Zoi Lightfoot
     is still waiting (according to her last post about them) for them to
     contact her and arrange for some type of meeting. To be honest,
     I think we'll still be waiting 10 years from now. Meanwhile, T/T/T
     is  telling people both in Germany and the UK she  is Cherokee, has
     proven it, has an enrollment card  and I have personally seen Francis
     Billington carry the Cherokee flag in the "grand entry" at "PowWow"s
     here in the UK.  Since I am of both Creek and Cherokee blood, how
     do you think that makes me feel?????

6.  Like it or not, whether or not someone is American or not, is Native
     American or not DID become the business of the German court during
     the course of the trial. Since Henry Reyna's lawsuit revolved entirely
     around statements made about his NOT being American and NOT
     being Native American he had to prove WE are not American and
     are not Native American. He was also required to prove he was and
     that our statements were lies.  Because of this lawsuit, the German
     courts had to become familar with what constitutes a Native American
      nation, sovereign rights, CDIB cards,  enrollment cards, etc.  In case
     I neglected to mention it earlier, Henry Reyna was not successful
      in proving he was either American or Native American.

7.  In case anyone hasn't seen the big picture yet, since I have now
      made public loudcrow/Crow with a loud mouth/Crow with a bent
      beak/Crow with a big mouth or whatever other phoneyor not
      phoney Indian name anyone would like to call me  is ME: Elizabeth
      Roemer and  to me and my family T/T/T told these blatant lies. Now if
     anyone  on this forum would be kind enough to contact the Cherokee
     Nation  in Oklahoma and ask whether she is/is not enrolled and obtain a
      written statement from them regarding her status, please PM me.
      It is extremely difficult for those of us who reside in Europe (time
      differences, cost of International phone calls, etc) to do everything we
      need to do. I will be extremely appreciative if anyone can assist us
      not only in this matter but in others as well.
   
8.   T/T/T and Francis were NEVER taught how to lead or do a proper
      Stomp Dance by my family. In fact, we do not teach sacred things
      to ANYONE NOT OF OUR CLAN, Imagine how horrified we were
      to see they had taken it upon themselves to conduct one (complete
      with drums) at their Pagan gathering.

We have enough work here in the UK to keep us busy for the next
several centuries.  You would be amazed at the number of "Cherokee",
"Lakota", "Shoshone",  "Medicine Men", etc. that are prancing around
in the UK and are the bells of the ball at the UK "PowWows".  Some of
them even carry the flags of "their Nation" into the "Grand Entry".  So
please don't preach to us about PODIAs, Wannabes, liars, cheats,
frauds,. etc. We have to deal with them, and sometimes face-to-face,
on a daily basis.  And this isn't happening just in the UK. It is
happening in Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, Germany, Russia and
other places.  It would be nice if those of you who live in the states
and/or Canada would offer some assistance.

I've seen the post from dabosijigwokush regarding Ron's Place Pawn
and Gun. That is the work address of Chief Robert Earl Watson I
believe and since he is there during normal business hours and not
at home to receive phone calls, I ASSUME that is why this address and
telephone number is being used. Call him and ask the burning questions.

Liz Roemer
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on May 09, 2008, 11:41:28 pm
no that is what is listed on the paper that was posted from the tribe
so the tribes mail is delivered to a gun shop?
listed owners of rons place pawn and gun shop

RONS PLACE
KULKA, RONALD FRANCIS & CHERYL A
6173 N STEWART ST

MILTON, FL  32570

do they know that there place is being used this way?
by Robert Earl Watson
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 10, 2008, 12:30:11 am
Oh brother is right!

 I think I've made it perfectly clear Larry and I are no
longer enrolled members of that band. However, this band is still my
family. Do either of us have proof of their being state and/or federally
recognized or recognized by federally recognized Creek/Muskokee?
No. Since we are no longer enrolled members, how could we possibly
be expected to produce, upon demand, documents?

Do I know if  other Creek/Muskokee recognize them or not? Yes.

Will I answer that question here? No.

Why not?

"My guess is that you don't and will do anything to avoid answering the question."

[Insults removed]

 Call the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee, Poarch,  or whoever you wanna call. I HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKWATER BAND OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEE. You can call this dodging
the issue, evading answering, I really don't care what you wanna call it.
Try, for example; calling a non-enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation
and asking them to either obtain or hand over to NAFPS documents
concerning the Cherokee Nation. Only a fool would oblige you.

Dunno if Chief Watson's employer knows he uses the company business
phone to conduct Native business or not. That's not my business. Nor
is it yours.

My intent in my previous post was to answer only those questions which
I can from first-hand experience and/or knowledge answer. I refuse to answer any questions I am not authorized to answer. Plain and simple.

I AM NOT AUTHORIZED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKWATER BAND
OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEE.

 If you were to ask a former employee of a company to turn over confidential files of that company and to issue a statement
about the company's current policy on whatever, how much credibility
would you or anyone else be willing to give to those files (which have
probably been changed) or that policy (which may have also been
changed)? 

Please answer these questions for me.

Are my people/family Native or not
Are we PODIAs or not?
 Are we a bunch of frauds or not?

Liz Roemer

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 10, 2008, 03:19:49 am
Posted by educatedindian:
I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.

Since I was not an enrolled member of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee at the time this letter was written, I am in no position to address this because I have no first hand knowledge.  And even if I did have
first-hand knowledge I would not answer because I am not authorized to
speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee.

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the letter reads "He will act as our
Chief-In-Training and lead and direct any of our Honorary Members
in Germany".

Who are we to decide which titles a clan/band/nation can or cannot give?

Posted by educatedindian:
Unless you prove otherwise, I'd say we should consider Blackwater a heritage group.

I don't have to prove anything about the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee to you or anyone else since I do not have the authority to
speak on their behalf. Yes, these people are my clan and my family.
Do I have permission to speak and answer questions on behalf of
the Blackwater Band?  Absolutely not and that is precisely why I will not
answer some of the questions.  If you want to consider them a heritage
group, feel free to do so.

Let's be honest here. The only reason the Blackwater Band came to the
attention of the NAFPS is because of T/T/T and Francis Billington and the
involvement Larry, myself and other members of my family  had with them
personally. Fair enough. I can honestly say I understand that and
understand why my family has come under scrutiny.  We were played
for fools. T/T/T looked me, Larry and other members of my family straight
in the eyes and lied to us.  Despite our own misgivings, we patiently
waited for T/T/T to produce her documents. We waited for 3+ years.
We still haven't seen them.  We're heard more excuses than Carter
has pills as to why she has been unable to show them.  Are they
still honorary members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee?
Not unless someone has restored them since Larry and I became
unenrolled members. I cannot answer that question either because I
simply do not know the answer.

I'm looking at Francis' website now (wolfcrystalspirit.com). Under the
photographs section, under Home USA 2007/2008 are pictures they
would have viewers believe were taken during their visit during
the Christmas holidays. For the record, the picture entitled "The tribal
people of the lower Muskokee Creek" is indeed my family in their
regalia. Was this picture taken during their visit? No. Does its appearance
on his website under that title give anyone else the impression the entire
clan showed up in regalia and threw a big "Welcome"" party for them?
The picture entitled "Brenda and Turkey Tolbert" also was not taken during
 their visit.

Are their others like her in the world? You better believe it! Are they most
anxious to have a "real Native American friend"? You better believe it!
People like this will stop AT NOTHING.  Is it possible one of you might
befriend such a charming, friendly, charismatic, deceitful person as T/T/T
is? Yes. Was I deeply hurt by her actions? Yes. Did I learn a lesson from
it? Yes.

It simply is not fair to look at photos of people and put yourself in a
position of authority and judge whether or not these people are
Native American or any other ethniticity. I personally know some
Natives with blond hair and blue eyes. They are Natives nevertheless.

It isn't fair to look at whatever someone else has written and published
and hold the individual about whom the article was written responsible
for its contents and/or  inaccuracies.

It simply isn't fair to throw around words like "not Native", PODIA,
"has no right to represent and undermine real Native Americans" and
personal opinions such as those expressed by Mama when a topic is
under RESEARCH NEEDED.  When you find PROOF the people being
researched are frauds, not Native, etc. then I suggest you turn the
information over to the tribe to which they claim they belong and let
them deal with it and not declare anyone to be judge and jury over
something which does not affect the sovereign rights of a nation.

I also urge those who are non-Native to become more aware of the
protocol and decorum demanded by my people. Questions must be
posed in a proper way and respectfully. Do not presume you can
ask anything you want and receive an answer. We don't work
that way. We are not easily intimidated, so threatening or badgering
us won't get you anywhere either. In fact, it will get you nowhere at
all.

I haven't quite figured out how the IIC, the UN, Leonard, Zoi Lightfoot's
qualifications as a lawyer, etc. got into this thread. These topics have
absolutely nothing to do with this thread other than yes. Larry and I
are members of the IIC (International Intertribal Community) and yes.
Zoi Lightfoot is the personal legal representative of both Larry and
myself. I would appreciate it if these became seperate threads entirely
since they have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Liz Roemer


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 10, 2008, 03:23:25 am
I have a question, Liz. Why aren't you and Larry Nichols enrolled members of the "Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee" any longer? And, if Nichols isn't a member, how can he be their Ambassador to Germany?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 10, 2008, 03:43:02 am
Why Larry and I are no longer members is personal and will not
be answered. Since I have already stated since Larry is no longer
an enrolled member, the letter giving him authority to act as
European representative is null and void. Do Larry and I consider
ourselves Ambassadors? Yes. Is it an offical position? No. Do we
have an office? Yes. Larry's is in his basement and mine is in a
spare bedroom. Do we get paid? Not one red cent. Do we think
what we do for the nations to be important and productive? Yes.

Please keep in mind the majority of the exerpts from the articles
Mama posted as evidence are old. I cannot state the source and/or
dates of these publications and neither did  Mama when she posted
them here as evidence. I simply cannot remember.  In my opinion,
source, date, URL, etc. should be stated whenever such information
is used as evidence.

I'm off to sleep now since it's almost 5am  and I am tired and my
brain is fried.

Liz
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Cetan on May 10, 2008, 04:00:11 am
Maybe I am missing something here but it seems that no one is willing to verify that the Blackwater Muskogee tribe is either federally or state recognized, so we can assume they are not. Larry Nichols has a document saying he has Creek ancestors but even that tribe does not seem to recognize him as an enrolled member. And he is not even a member of the "tribe" that he is supposed to be the ambassador of.  Does that sum it up?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 10, 2008, 02:10:05 pm
From Cetan:

"Maybe I am missing something here but it seems that no one is willing to verify that the Blackwater Muskogee tribe is either federally or state recognized, so we can assume they are not."

Maybe I am the one who seems to be missing something and/or
maybe I am the one who has not communicated the answers clearly.
Since the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee does not appear on
the list of state and/or federally recognized tribes, I think it's safe to
ASSUME they are not. To the best of my knowledge, no one here has
the authority to answer that question. Only the state of Florida and/or the
BIA has the authority to answer those questions.

From Cretan:

"Larry Nichols has a document saying he has Creek ancestors but even that tribe does not seem to recognize him as an enrolled member."

Did you contact  the Poarch Band and ask  if he is an enrolled member or
not? Or did you ASSUME none of us are enrolled in the Poarch Band?

There is a difference between being recognized by a state and/or
federally recognized tribe as a Native American and being an enrolled
member of a state and/or federally recognized tribe. Since whether or
not we are PODAs, frauds, etc. has been brought into
question, this letter was published in an attempt  to prove we are Native
Americans. The letter from Poarch Band certifies Larry Nichols as a
"Recognized and Accepted Creek Indian Decendant" from the Rolls of a
Federally Acknowledged Creek Tribe. THIS EVIDENCE SHOULD SETTLE THE
MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE PERSONALLY RECOGNIZED BY A
FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE. Having received such a letter from
a federally recognized tribe,  gives one the right  to freely participate in
their culture. There is nothing you can do or say that can or will change
that. There are many Creek/Muskokee in Oklahoma who are not at present
enrolled members. They are still accepted as being part of the Native
American community. They are still accepted by their  tribe and are
allowed to participate in their culture. There is nothing you can
do or say that will change that

From Cretan:

"And he is not even a member of the "tribe" that he is supposed to be the ambassador of.  Does that sum it up?"

The newspaper, magazine articles, etc.  which Mama uses as
"evidence" against us are YEARS old to the best of my recollection.
At the time these articles were written, both Larry and I were enrolled
members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and he,
indeed, did have the authority to serve as their Representative. We are
no longer enrolled members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee and DO NOT represent or introduce ourselves as being their
Ambassadors.  Is that clear to everyone or not?

FYI, the Comanche has an official Ambassador to Germany. He's not
Native. His name does not appear on their official webiste. Contact the
Comanche anonymously after having taken  it upon yourselves to decide
what the Comanche can or cannot do and ask why they made this decision,
why they decided upon a specific "Title" for this non-Native man and why
they made  this man their Ambassador. See how far you get and please let
us know how that worked out for ya.

I have some questions of my own now:

1. What qualifications does the site and/or its members have which
    gives them the authority to attack members of Indian Nations
    or individuals who have proven they are Native American?

2.  What business does this site and/or its members have
     interfering in the internal processes of Band and/or Tribal
     Council matters without Sanction or Recourse?

3.  By what right does this site and/or its members cast doubt on
     innocent peoples without first identifying yourselves and producing
     documents granting you the authority to do so?

Liz Roemer

 

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 10, 2008, 07:55:32 pm
1...even if I did have first-hand knowledge I would not answer because I am not authorized to speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee.

2...Who are we to decide which titles a clan/band/nation can or cannot give?

3...I don't have to prove anything about the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee to you or anyone else since I do not have the authority to
speak on their behalf.

4...Let's be honest here. The only reason the Blackwater Band came to the
attention of the NAFPS is because of T/T/T and Francis Billington and the
involvement Larry, myself and other members of my family  had with them
personally.

5...It simply isn't fair to throw around words like "not Native", PODIA,
"has no right to represent and undermine real Native Americans" and
personal opinions...

6...I haven't quite figured out how the IIC, the UN, Leonard, Zoi Lightfoot's
qualifications as a lawyer, etc. got into this thread.

Liz Roemer


I'll try to answer clearly each point. I added numbers to try and make things clearer.

1. Liz, that first one is nonsense. Any member of any recognized tribe would be able to answer such questions clearly and quickly, and no one would presume that only an "authorized representative" could, or that someone was presenting themselves as such.
The Blackwaters certainly do try to use the whole bit about "authorized" and "recognized" in the exact oppsite way most tribes with recog do.

2. No one's trying to "decide" what titles can be given out. Try arguing with what's actually said instead of what you decide to make up. It's hardly our fault if the Blackwater decided to give Nichols a title that few, if any, tribes with recog have ever had, but that some fake tribes have used.

3. I have no idea why you not being "authorized" means you believe you don't have to prove anything.

4. Actually the Billingtons were only part of the reason why they came to our attention. The main reason why they continue to occupy our time is because of the refusal to give simple, clear answers and give lots of excuses instead.
Really, how hard would it have been to say, "We are composed of people who've discovered they had Muscogee ancestry, and are trying to form a heritage group that we hope will become a community, but we often make mistakes."

5. Those terms have been tossed around primarily by Blackwater and friends. Don't complain when people see through your attempts to distract from the issue and naturally wonder if the terms are more applicable to you.
We have members who are PODIA, and don't find it insulting, don't take on airs, get easily insulted over ordinary and understandable questions, or imaginary slights. To be a descendant is no cause for shame, nor is being primarily white.

6. With the exception of the last point, I haven't figured out how either. Oh yes, I remember. Blackwaters introduced these questions, in the hopes of causing a distraction or pretending that somehow Peltier, the IIC, etc, were under debate or even somehow being insulted.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 10, 2008, 08:09:54 pm

1. There is a difference between being recognized by a state and/or
federally recognized tribe as a Native American and being an enrolled
member of a state and/or federally recognized tribe. Since whether or
not we are PODAs, frauds, etc. has been brought into
question, this letter was published in an attempt  to prove we are Native
Americans. The letter from Poarch Band certifies Larry Nichols as a
"Recognized and Accepted Creek Indian Decendant" from the Rolls of a
Federally Acknowledged Creek Tribe. THIS EVIDENCE SHOULD SETTLE THE
MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE PERSONALLY RECOGNIZED BY A
FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE. Having received such a letter from
a federally recognized tribe,  gives one the right  to freely participate in
their culture. There is nothing you can do or say that can or will change
that. There are many Creek/Muskokee in Oklahoma who are not at present
enrolled members. They are still accepted as being part of the Native
American community. They are still accepted by their  tribe and are
allowed to participate in their culture. There is nothing you can
do or say that will change that


2. FYI, the Comanche has an official Ambassador to Germany. He's not
Native. His name does not appear on their official webiste. Contact the
Comanche anonymously after having taken  it upon yourselves to decide
what the Comanche can or cannot do and ask why they made this decision,
why they decided upon a specific "Title" for this non-Native man and why
they made  this man their Ambassador. See how far you get and please let
us know how that worked out for ya.

Liz Roemer


I added the numbers again, to make things clearer.

1. The only thing that doc does is prove Nichols had an ancestor six generations back. Plenty of enrolled people don't take part in the culture or community, and plenty of people who are not enrolled are accepted by their communities.

Really, it's something fairly simple to show. I went to school at Purdue, and the Miami of Indiana were not far away. They were always having meetings and other contacts with the Miami in OK, working on common issues, language programs, etc. And the Miami of OK repeatedly issued public statements supporting the Miami of Indiana's efforts for federal recognition.

2. Really....? I would like to know his name. Show me where the office of this "Comanche ambassador" is. Doesn't show up anywhere listed at the Comanche Nation's offices.
http://www.comanchenation.com/departments.html

Doesn't show up anywhere I could find actually.

I bring that last one up because an alleged Comanche, David Yeagley, appeared in a racist film recently, made in Europe, that urged all NDNs worldwide to assimilate and said that NDN cultures were either dead or failing. Wouldn't a Comanche ambassador comment on something like this, given the damage being done to their people so close to where he's stationed?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 11, 2008, 02:18:42 am
Your spamming was deleted Liz. You already asked the questions. No one answered you because they don't see the point in wasting time just because you can't be bothered to read the "Who We Are" intro to the site.

It's also another attempts to sidetrack the questions you still refuse to answer, or answered incompletely. If you have questions to ask that aren't answered by that Intro section, start another thread (probably under Etc) but don't sidetrack this or any other thread.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 11, 2008, 12:24:21 pm
Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to indiscriminately send unsolicited bulk messages.
My post, which you have now deleted, was to ask the same 3 questions I posed earlier. I fail to see how
this could possibly be considered to be spam. No doubt you will delete this post too because it has
become abundantly clear you and others here don't mind asking questions but sure don't wanna
answer any yourselves. Whatever tickles your fancy.

Liz Roemer
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 11, 2008, 12:43:39 pm
There it is, that persecution complex we see so often in would be tribes. You don't help your own case.

Spamming is anytime you send the same message repeatedly, which is what you did.
Quit trying to change the subject and avoid answering the questions about Blackwater. And again, quit being so lazy that you don't bother to read the Intro section. You keep trying to change the subject so much you won't even give the name of the alleged Comanche ambassador.

Earlier I gave the example of the two Miami tribes. There was also a third group in Indiana called the Wea Band. Darryl Baldwin of the Miami language program described the group at a conference at Purdue as being made up of descendants. But it wasn't their lack of high BQ that bothered anyone. In essense they still had largely white mindsets, often making such mistakes as thinking they could be given all the details of ceremonies as soon as they discovered their ancestry.

I'd say Blackwater, at least what I see of them based on their members here, is not like Baldwin described the Wea. Some of you are doing good work, standing up for good causes. And some of the would be tribes would never have admitted their mistakes with the likes of the Billingtons. A few of the worser ones would have gotten more defensive, hidden them. Or worse, still clung to them, or split into pro and anti factions.

The only real flaw I see now is this tendency to freeze up at any criticism and hide behind this ridiculous claim of "Can't say, can't say, I'm not authorized."

Oh, and Nichols joined up a few days ago. I wish he'd tell us himself about being "chief in training of honorary members in Germany."
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Larry D. Nichols on May 11, 2008, 02:02:53 pm
[Childish insults removed]

You Sir, have insulted not only me, my family and my people, but all Native Americans.

[Childish insults removed]

 Your demands and insults will not protect you, because I have seen many like you and I know what your intentions are toward Native American people. The Romans and European Americans used the same technique that you are using against Native American people as well.

[Did Nichols just claim the ROMANS attacked NDNs? He did...]

By the way, I personally know the Ambassador of the Comanche Nation of Lawton, Oklahoma as well. He is a very kind and intelligent gentleman and a full blood German. I have worked with him many years busting people like yourself. So as you see, you are not worth talking to

[libel and defamation removed. Apparently Nichols is in contact with, or naively choosing to believe, the libel put out by Nuage promoter John Lekay and white supremacist David Yeagley.]

who,s parents and grandparents all the way back through history had to go through pure hell because of [childish insult] will be dealt with accordingly. I,m sorry that I can not wish you all the best, you have made your bed so now you go sleep in it.

Kindly,

Larry D. Nichols

[Much like Liz, Nichols did everything possible to avoid answering any questions. Does anyone else have a hard time believing anyone would be foolish enough to make an overgrown child like this an ambassador, or "chief in training"?
-Al]
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on May 11, 2008, 06:22:41 pm
[edit] Florida
In Florida, the Governor's Council on Indian Affairs in 1988 adopted a policy which recommends that state officials refrain from recognizing any group not first acknowledged by the federal government. However, they have set a secondary set of recommendations for what the criteria for state recognition should be in case the state government should wish to bypass the first recommendation: "A state action should (1) create a government-to-government relationship between state and tribe, (2) set forth an explicit rendering of the state's interpretation of 'recognition,' (3) be confined only to groups descended from Seminole, Miccosukee, Creek, or a tribe located in Florida prior to May 30, 1830, and (4) meet federal criteria for recognition."[16] So far, Florida has recognized no tribes
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: crazyeagle on May 11, 2008, 07:53:40 pm
oh dear dear dear.....

Al...[Childish insult removed]

1,No, Larry Nichols did not claim the Romans attack the indians nations and if you had left his original post for all to see instead of editing it as you have done,then all would be able to see how you have twisted his words.

2. David Yeagley and Lekay is not involved with the Comanche Nation Ambassador in Germany - why dont you phone Chairman Wallace Coffey to confirm this instead of [libel] [Veiled threat]
Oh and ask him about Larry Nichols who he knows personally and while you are about it ask Chairman Wallace Coffey if he has heard of me?...damn..think you are about to get a very unpleasant surprise from Chairman Wallace Coffey! [Threat]

3. [Sidetrack with personal insults] youand Moma P who seems to have disappeared are indeed asking us to prove these things..[Insults]

4. [Childishness]

5. [More childishness]

6. [Yet more]

[Al's note: Anyone else tired of the Blackwaters' childish trolling? Besides the emails of support I've already gotten.]
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 11, 2008, 09:01:54 pm
Hi Crazy eagle . No I haven't disappeared . Still reading and trying to understand what it is you care about.

1. Do you believe that anyone with any amount of Native blood should be able to declare themselves of the Nation of their indigenous blood line - even if the Nation says they do not want to enroll the person ? 

Maybe your Nation has different standards than I am familiar with, but maybe if you think of it this way it will help you understand what the concern is.

So first lets just look at individuals identifying themselves as Mi'kmaq. Imagine there was someone who had a registered Mi'kmaq ancestor 6 generations back . Imagine the Mi'kmaq Nation was kind and generous enough to acknowledge that connection in writting.

2.Would the Mi'kmaq Nation acknowledge this peron as Mi'kmaq or would they sbe more inclined to see this person as a non native trespasser and a theif if they claimed they were of the Mi'kmaq Nation?

3. If the Mi'kmaq Nation would not acknowledge or enroll an individual of some Mi'kmaq descent , should leadrs in the Cree Nation or Metis Nation be able to recognize these people as members of the Mi'kmaq Nation?
As cheifs or ambassados of the Mi'kmaq Nation ?

4.Would the Mi'kmaq Nation be concerned that if they acknowledged some of these distant descedants as Indian , that they would be pressured to ackowledge all their many many distant cousins too?

5. How do you imagine that acknowledgement of all these distant relations would affect the soverienty of the Mi'kmaq Nation?

6. Would this increase in numbers make the Mi'maq Nation stronger , or just indistinguishable from the non native population?

7.Would the voices of the many who could claim this distant descendancy be so many they would drown out the voics of the Mi'kmaq who had managed to hold on to at least a recognizable chunk of their culture and their identity?

Imagine this person and some of their cousins got together and called themselves the Green Water Mi'kmaq band. Imagine they begin demanding recognition as Aboriginal people and they declare themselves a First Nation and send Ambassadors to Germany.

8.Within the norms of your Nation would that be acceptable behavior?

9.If someone did that, wouldn't it be entirely reasonable to expect them to provide references amoungst the recognized Mi'kmaq tribal leaders who could let people know they were not moving into Mi'kmaq identity in a way that was trespassing, before giving these people recognition?

10. How do you think people claiming to be Blackwater Muskokee are different than people claiming to be Mi'kmaq in similar circumstances?

I really am curious how you and Zoi see this, and if you truly care about the respect and recognition of the soverienty of First Nations or tribes how you imagine supporting groups of distant descendants making these claims is likely to affect this.

Please excuse the numbers. I don't mean to be rude I just want it to be clear what I am asking you to consider...
       
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: justmeagain on May 11, 2008, 10:44:40 pm
I am new to the group correct me if I am wrong, from the subject line I am reading postings of the Sr. Administrators:

1. I am trying to understand is this forum defining all Tribes who have not been Federally nor State Recognized as Frauds?

2. Or is it just those Tribes who have documented proven actions that show evidence of Monetary or Cultural Fraud Activities?
 
3. Does this forum define all (PODIA) as just non Indians (white) whether enrolled or non enrolled, regardlesss of geographical birth, location and Tribal Contact and Indian Commnunity Involvement?

4. Many active Enrolled Tribal Members of the well known Federally Recognized Oklahoma Creek Tribe and the Eastern Creek Poarch Band, are persons of 3rd to 7th generation (PODIA), due to their Tribal Code Enrollment Requirements, yet they are Federally Recognized Individually and by their Tribes that are both (BIA) Federally Recognized and they are not (Fake Creek Indians) as has been suggested on this forum.

5. Is this forum here stating (PODIA) are not Native Americans just because they are (PODIA), yet they are Federally Recognized by (BIA) Bureau of Indian Affairs and by Certified tribal letter from the Federally Acknowledged Tribe of their Descent?

6. Is this Forum suggesting unenrolled Federally Recognized Creek Indians of (PODIA) who are recognized as part of their Tribal Community as being(non Indians)?

7. There are many Individual Federally Recognized Creek Indians who are not enrolled, but are Registered with their Tribe and descend from the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe. Many of these Creek Indians qualify for BIA Federal Recognition by the Bureau of Indian Affairs through (CDIB) and by their local certified Federally Recognized Tribal Letters. They still maintain their Tribal Culture and have contact with their Tribe and are Officially accepted by Bureau of Indian Affairs as Native American.

8. Is this Forum declaring a federally Recognized (PODIA) is not a Creek Indian, nor Federally Recognized, when written documented evidence has  been posted, shown and proven to the contrary?

9. Is this Forum questioning the freedom of a Federally Recognized Creek Indian, descended from the the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe, to practise culture in the way he or she freely chooses, yet no documented evidence by the Forum has been produced showing he Individually has commited a Fraud when on the other hand, he has produced documents proving his Federally Recognized Creek Tribal connection?

10. Regardless if the Individual in question at one time, was a member of an Unrecognized Indian Tribe or Indian group that made obvious mistakes in enrolling members, as many Indian Tribes or groups have done. This in no way denies his right as a Federally Recognized Creek Indian to freely participate in promoting his Indian heritage and culture as he chooses as long as it does not break the law, or Title 25 Federal Indian Code.   

11. I respectfully request the Forum to consider defining their definition of who is a Fraud Indian or a Fraud Indian Tribe, (PODIA) and etc. in Legal Terms, so all Federally Recognized and Non Federally Recognized Native Americans may understand your purpose as a Forum?

12. The Individual named in this Forum has proven with Tribal Certified Creek Documents he descends from the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe, so be it!
[libel removed]
 just because an unrecognized Tribe or Group chose to give him a letter of mandate. Why would he even need that letter, when he has been Recognized by a Federally Recognized Tribe, free to practise his heritage and culture?

[Childishness]

SIGNED

Just me: I am who I am, no one else!

I have no affiliation with the Tribe or group in question, so I cannot personally be attacked in this regard, but I do protest the rights of a Federal Recognized Creek Indian and all Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED.

[libel removed]
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 12, 2008, 01:44:11 am

1,No, Larry Nichols did not claim the Romans attack the indians nations and if you had left his original post for all to see instead of editing it as you have done,then all would be able to see how you have twisted his words.

2. David Yeagley and Lekay is not involved with the Comanche Nation Ambassador in Germany

CE, you'll do a lot better if you argue about things that I actually say, instead of things you make up.

1. Technically Nichols said the Romans "used the same techniques" against the Indians. Fact is, Roman and Indian contact of any kind (outside of some disputed claims about shipwrecked sailors) just didn't happen. Nichols is spouting X-Files type nonsense.

2. Nichols is repeating libel that came straight from Lekay and Yeagley. No one mentioned the alleged ambassador except you.

We don't reward childishness in here. Nothing was removed except childishness, and the libel that Nichols got from Lekay and Yeagley.

Nichols, Liza, and yourself are doing all you can to avoid answering what we all think is very likely. There's no sign the actual Muscogee know you, outside of an office letter confirming Nichols had one ancestor six generations ago.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 12, 2008, 01:48:52 am
I am new to the group correct me if I am wrong, from the subject line I am reading postings of the Sr. Administrators:

1. I am trying to understand is this forum defining all Tribes who have not been Federally nor State Recognized as Frauds?

2. Or is it just those Tribes who have documented proven actions that show evidence of Monetary or Cultural Fraud Activities?


For a new member, you repeat the Blackwater's habit of failing to read and making things up exactly.

Go to the Who We Are section and quit trying to sidetrack us, exactly as the Blackwater keep trying to do. Your repeating their childishness doesn't help them.

What we keep asking them is far more important: Do the closest alleged relatives recognize you as relatives?

All we've gotten is a letter saying a single one (and we still don't know if the Blackwater number more than half a dozen or so) of the Blackwater had a single ancestor six generations back.

So for the extremely lazy Liza, Crazyeagle, Justme, and any others, what you have all repeatedly failed to read in the Intro to the site.

"We are not especially concerned about anyone's blood quantum, enrollment status, or family history. The only time we would care was if someone had lied in order to "pass" or appear "more Indian" to justify their misbehavior."

Any more attempts to sidetrack this thread get deleted. Period.

Again:

Show us any proof the actual Muscogee recognize you as Muscogee.

There's also some other evidence we've found about the Blackwater and their honorary memberships in Germany. I'd like to hear your explanation of that.

Ironically we never would have uncovered it if you had just come straight out and admitted to being a heritage group of people with descent. That, and the dozens of evasive/childish/libelous posts.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 12, 2008, 03:43:22 am
justmeagain
I don't think anyone suggested all PODIAs are frauds. It is just when a small amount of Native blood gets exaggerated into a full blown Native identity with entitlements to culture or resources or a voice in tribal decision making , that PODIAs can become a problem. I don't think anyone accused Larry Nichols or the Blackwater Muskokee of being a fraud.  This catagory is Research Needed, and a lot of stuff gets posted here which is in a gray area where what is right and wrong, isn't clear, but there is controversy.

I expressed my own opinions on these definitions already at great length in the threads below , so I doubt there is much that would be answered if I reply to all these points, though maybe someone else has some thoughts to contribute .

Questionable tribes and Indian idenities
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

PODIAS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

Advice for critics of NAFPS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0


A lot of the things you are imagining people said that you feel are unfair were never said.

If you read what was said in the above links, maybe some of the attitudes here will make better sense to you. I don't think anyone thinks PODIAs , in themselves, are frauds. Lots of the really good people who post here are PODIAs. It's not any kind of a put down. It just means PODIAs shouldn't expect automatic entitlement to anything that belongs to Native people.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: justmeagain on May 12, 2008, 04:28:48 am
Mama,

Thanks for your reply:

Strange that this is called a Forum, yet my honest sincere questions and respectful posts to you and the Educated Indian's accusations have been deleted and not posted?

What do you think your sincere Native American Suscribers think about that? You both know I speak the truth about the one accused! If you are an Honest, Serious Forum you would repost my response that was so quickly deleted. To delete a sincere response, is "to hide the truth" to keep others in the dark, so they don't know.

Respectfully,
just me again
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: justmeagain on May 12, 2008, 04:53:02 am
Please allow me to give a fair response to Educated Indian's last post to me, as he quickly deleted my post and why? When truth is told it doesn't have to be deleted, let the people read and decide for themselves. That is what a Forum is all about, right?

[It was spamming. And it's an attempt to sidetrack and avoid answering questions about Blackwater. You know very well that's why it was deleted, as was the spamming in this post, and all in any future posts.]
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 12, 2008, 05:04:34 am
Larry Nichols' Mvskoke ancestor was six generations back. That would be his great-great-great-great-grandmother or grandfather. If he was claiming Cherokee, we'd be hearing Princess jokes. Providing that his Mvskoke ancestor was full-blood, Nichols would still only be 1/64 bq; if she was half, he would be 1/128; if she was one-fourth, he would be 1/256. You get the picture. Giving Nichols the benefit of the doubt, let's assume his ancestor was full-blood; he's 1/64. What about the other 63/64?? If you had one ancestor six generations ago and everyone since then married outside the Nation, how much Mvskoke tradition would you have grown up with? You're definitely not Indian. A descendant, yes. An Indian, no. And a group of people with similar background could not be a Tribe. A tribe is a continuous community. A heritage group, yes. A Tribe, no.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: justmeagain on May 12, 2008, 07:32:43 am
Thanks for your opinion,

You are only just assuming that all his Blood Lines of Indian Ancestry, have been accounted for and each Quantum calculated. His Letter of Certified Creek Acknowledgment from a Federally Recognized Creek Tribe was submitted in response to certain ones that questioned he was not Acknowledged as Creek Indian by a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe?

Yet he proved by Certified Tribal Letter that he descends from the Rolls of a Federally Reconized Tribe and is Free to Practise his Heritage and the Culture that is close to his heart. Something that many who claim to be Native American don't understand, but seem to think by their statements, only Blood Quantum alone is a factor that proves one being classsified as a true Native American?

Blood Quantum is important, but just one factor Tribes use in being able to determe the definition of who is Native American. It is true, that without any Indian Blood it would be difficult for one to be classifed as a Native American and I fully agree with that.  But the question remains to the Tribes themselves to determine their own method of Direct Lineal Descent or the minimum amount of required Blood Quantum they require to qualify for Enrollment in a Federally Recognized Tribe. Federally Recognized Tribes do use a Certified Tribal Letters to Acknowledge and Recognize one as Native American, who has proven connection to the TRIBE.

Pertaining to Tribal Acknowledgment and Enrollment procedures with the Oklahoma Dawes Tribal Descendants. Oklahoma Federally Recognized Creek Muscogee Tribe and some other Federally Recognized Tribes, which INCLUDE MOST DAWES ROLL TRIBES.

Tribal Enrollment in these and some Federally Recognized Tribes are not Based upon Blood Quantum, but the "Direct Lineal Descent" method of Enrollment, provided one can prove by documentation, Direct Lineal Descent from a Distant Creek Ancestor (s) named on the 1906 Dawes Rolls which were created over 102 years ago, multiple generations ago.

These Federally Recognized Tribes have their own TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CODE and as Sovereign Nations have chosen this method of TRIBAL Acknowledgment and Enrollment for their Creek Families. Many of the (Active members) Enrolled Dawes Roll Descendants connect 3 to 7 generations back to their Indian Ancestors on the 1906 Dawes Roll AND DO NOT AT ALL REQUIRE AN IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER TO BE ON THEIR PRESENT ROLL, FOR TRIBAL ENROLLMENT ACKNOWLEDGMENT.

Who are we to discredit this method of Tribal Acknowledgment and the Tribal Enrollment of their Families. They know who their Families are. They are  Federally Recognized Tribes and are Sovereign Nations? Blood Quantum is not a factor, Family connection is what is a factor and I am sure Tribal Community Involvenment is important to those Indians who are really serious about Tribal Enrollment.

Poarch Band Base Roll Ancestors go back to the 1870 and 1900 Census, Distant Creek Ancestors. At present No IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER is REQUIRED TO BE ON THE ROLLS. They are all Federally Recognized Sovereign NATIONS and should be allowed their own methods of Tribal Enrollment as the Bureau of Indian Affairs has approved. They know who their families are and who are we to prove otherwise?

Thanks,
justmeagain
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 12, 2008, 08:28:42 am
I am not dodging answering questions here nor am I sidetracking to
avoid the issue. I have answered the questions honestly and to the
best of my ability. I have even told you what my real name is. I didn't
have to do that.  So sorry if you didn't like my answers and/or don't
agree with them.

Is the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee state/and or federally
recognized. Since their name does not appear on the list of state and/or
federally recognized tribes, I think it's safe to ASSUME they are not.
Only the state of Florida and the BIA can give you a qualified yes/no
answer. I certainly can't and you can't expect me to.

Are current/and or former enrolled members of Blackwater Native
American? Yes. We had to provide the same type of paperwork state
and/or federally recognized tribes require of members seeking enrollment.

Do other state and/or federally recognized tribes recognize the Blackwater
Water Band recognize us and welcome us as members of the Native
American community? Yes. The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
sent a delegation to Oklahoma approximately 4-5 years ago to discuss
frauds, phonies, the lawsuits we faced in Germany and cultural theft.
Seems reasonable to me if the Chiefs of these nations took the time
to personally meet with and speak with this delegation they recognize
my clan/family as being Native Americans. I will NOT give the names of
these Nations nor the names of the Chiefs with whom they met. It's
none of your business.

Do either Larry or I sell ceremonies, hand out phoney natural names
or engage in any other activity that would bring shame upon ourselves
and/or our people? Absolutely not.

Do we need permission from unidentified individuals on the Internet
and/or the NAFPS Forum to practice our culture or participate in it?
No.

Does that answer all your questions?

Is there something which is still unclear or something you still don't understand?

I will not give anyone the name of the Comanche Ambassador to Germany. Since
the Comanche Nation has not made this information available for public consumption,
it certainly is not my place to do so. Call me a liar, storyteller, and/or whatever other
names you want to call me because I do refuse to answer this question. If you
want those questions answer, contact the Comanche. I will not question decisions
made, titles given, etc. of a Nation in which I am not an enrolled member and have
no authority to speak for.  Please do not use my refusal to give this information
to unknown individuals on the Internet as "evidence" of my being a liar, avoiding
answering the questions, etc.

Please reach a conclusion on my people and please do it SOON. My patience is
running very thin and I am beginning to feel like I am banging my head against a
brick wall. I've told you who I am. I've answered the questions to the best of
my ability. Larry and I can prove we are Native American and that gives us the
inherent right to practice our culture and traditions. I placed 2 of the many
documents we have on this forum for everyone to see. We didn't have to do
that. Our hands are clean. We have nothing to hide.

When I woke up this morning, my name was still Elizabeth "Liz" Roemer. I still
had the same ancestors I've had for the past 55 years. I was still Native
American. Nothing can change that. No one can take that from me... not with
words and not with deeds. I am a decent, honest human being and have answered
questions posed on this forum despite the probing intrusive nature of those
questions and the sometimes nasty comments associated with those questions.
I'm not answering any more questions from unknown individuals on this forum
or anywhere else on the Internet. I simply do not have to. I answer to myself,
my clan/family, my friends and to Creator. Too bad if you don't agree with
and/or like my answers.

Liz Roemer

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 12, 2008, 12:47:46 pm
I suggest before ANY of you go ant further you all re aquaint yourselves with 'THE PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP'
in Welcome and news.By that I mean all of its points.Now I suggest those peoples who want to find out if Blackwater is bogus,speak directly with Poarch Band and accertain from them if or who is bogus or not.Or is that too difficult a thing for folks to do?.I also suggest you digest very carefully what Napfs itself says it will or will not do.The reality is dispite the deletions this stuff is being sent out to the nations and peoples first and then posted on NaPFS,so i suggest you all loose the gossip and start coming up with cold hard facts and questions,NOT gossip.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 12, 2008, 01:02:18 pm
Justmeagain
Quote
They are all Federally Recognized Sovereign NATIONS and should be allowed their own methods of Tribal Enrollment as the Bureau of Indian Affairs has approved. They know who their families are and who are we to prove otherwise?
I agree.  From what you have shown us none of these federally recognized tribes have enrolled Larry Nichols. Have some respect for their decision - or did you only mean these federally recognized tribes have a right to say "Yes" but no right to say "NO".?

Even if Larry was federally recognized and enrolled, I still doubt the vast majority of native people would agree this entitled him to make up his own tribe and enroll people in it who had been turned away by other recognized tribes.
 
And that someone of such minor descent would presume to be entitled to hand out honourary memberships in Germany is a bit shocking.

You should note this thread is titled Blackwater Muskokee - it is not titled Larry Nichols. It is the legitimacy and entitlements of this tribe that is being disputed , not that Larry has some slight descent.

One thing I notice in this whole thread is that NONE of you so called Blackwater Indians have even once expressed any interest in the bigger picture, namely what happens to the long term over all recognition of First Nations identities and soveirnty, if anyone who has some slight descent is entitled to call themselves an Indian , practice the culture, or become a tribe with a political voice? The only interests you seem to have is about defending your right to be entitled to what belongs to Native people. Which seems to show where your loyalties lie, and they don't seem to be with protecting the long term identity and rights of the Nations you all want to claim. IMO that is one more thing showing you all are NOT Indians...

Again if a federally recognized tribe wanted to support you in your claims of being a tribe , I would have a different opinion but I see no evidence of this.

I have emailed the Poarch Creek tribe a couple days ago but still no response ... If you guys want respect for your claims it is up to you to organize references. No reply is not a reference.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 12, 2008, 01:26:47 pm

1. You are only just assuming that all his Blood Lines of Indian Ancestry, have been accounted for and each Quantum calculated.

2. His Letter of Certified Creek Acknowledgment from a Federally Recognized Creek Tribe was submitted in response to certain ones that questioned he was not Acknowledged as Creek Indian by a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe?

3....Blood Quantum is important, but just one factor Tribes use in being able to determe the definition of who is Native American.

1. And you're assuming that his BQ for other lines have NOT been calculated. I'm pretty if there were other ancestors, he'd have paraded them before us as proof.

2. Actually, no. We asked for proof the Blackwater was recognized by actual Muscogee. The best they could do was give us this instead. We're still waiting for any sign the actual Muscogee have to do with them. A conference together, meetings, etc.

3.If you or the other Blackwaters had not been so lazy and either kept refusing to read the Intro section, or deliberately ignored it so you can keep avoiding answering the questions, you'd know we said the same.

Incidentally, since you claim to have no affiliation with them, according to at least some of them, this is all none of your business, you must be a "Euro", you can't be Native, and you're interfering and persecuting them and trying to interfere with their culture.

But that's according to them, not us.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 12, 2008, 01:33:02 pm
The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
sent a delegation to Oklahoma approximately 4-5 years ago to discuss
frauds, phonies, the lawsuits we faced in Germany and cultural theft.
Seems reasonable to me if the Chiefs of these nations took the time
to personally meet with and speak with this delegation they recognize
my clan/family as being Native Americans. I will NOT give the names of
these Nations nor the names of the Chiefs with whom they met. It's
none of your business.

....Do either Larry or I sell ceremonies, hand out phoney natural names
or engage in any other activity that would bring shame upon ourselves
and/or our people? Absolutely not.

Liz Roemer


Finally, finally, FINALLY. It took the Blackwaters dozens of posts, spam, dodging, ducking, avoiding, sidetracking, childishness, evasiveness (and occasional lying and even libelling NAFPS) to answer what was asked weeks ago. THERE is what we asked, ties between the two groups.

Whether this was or nor, it seems we won't know. Meeting to talk about a lawsuit, which might have implications for other groups, is not nearly the same as being recognized or having longstanding ties.

And then you had to go back to the same old pattern...ducking, avoiding, dodging, making a vague claim with no proof. Refusing to answer.

Do you really expect anyone to believe this meeting was "top secret"? Or that the alleged German ambassador is too? (I suppose that makes him a secret agent instead of an ambassador. Ambassadors are very public positions after all.)

There's that persecution complex again...

That still doesn't answer questions about some Blackwaters and honorary memberships to Germans.

Nor does it excuse some of them repeatedly libelling NAFPS and NAFPS members, though perhaps it was just anger and naiveness that led them to believe nonsense from the likes of Lekay and Yeagley.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 12, 2008, 02:58:58 pm
BLACKWATER  BAND OF LOWER MVSKOKEES

Welcome to the BLACKWATER BAND OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEES web site.

We are a traditional band of descendants of American Indians. We try to honor our ancestors by living as much a traditional life-style as possible in today's world.

It is time for all nations to work together for our people. The time for discontent is over,  we must all return to our traditional ways. We must live as one people and speak with one voice.

We must.. For soon it will be too late and we will all forget our ancestry  and the old ones who came before.

It is the hope of our band that we all shall survive and be able to return to our old ways.

http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/index.htm


Tribal Leadership

Chief:  Robert Watson  "Bear Hunter"
Vice Chief:  Timothy Tolbert "Turkey Caller"
Secretary:  Sarah White "Bear Heart Who Sings"
Treasurer: Dobbie Williamson "Cloud Thunder"
Tvstvnvke & Representative to Germany : Larry D. Nichols "Strong Wolf"
Tribal Tvstvnvke: Leon Watson

Council Members:                                                                                 
Steve Ford "Screaming Eagle"
Aubrey Freeman "Lone Eagle"
Donnie Thompson "Lightning Bear"
Jeane Nichols "October Moon"
Bobby Tyree "Winddancer"

Registered Agent:
Brenda Tolbert "Emerald Waters"
Tribal Mother:
Diane Watson "Fire Wolf"

Tribal Princes
Erin Ford "Rising Fawn"

http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id17.htm


Guess they haven't updated their website in a while. Nichols aka Strong Wolf is still shown as their Representative to Germany.

I find it strange that quotes from Chief Seattle, Suquamish, and Black Fish, Shawnee, are used on their website; but no quotes from any Mvskoke, not from the past nor the present.

Also odd that under Related Links, they include the link to CNO, but do not have the link for the Muscogee (Creek) Nation of Oklahoma nor the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, the only two federally recognized Creek Nations. No links to any state-recognized Creek Bands or Tribes either.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on May 12, 2008, 03:05:15 pm
Justmeagain,  you have me comfused. Your orginal post is still there. The one with the questions. It hasn't been deleted. An example of what I consider a PODIA would be as follows. And this actually happen. I was at a Club, invited by a friend. It would be what I consider a Heritage Group or Club. A young woman walked up to me and began a conversation. She stated she had been looking through a family photo album and saw a picture of a woman that was Ndn. She asked who this was. And the reply was that is your Ndn relative. So she decided to come and join this Club to learn about her Culture. She didn't know the Nation, there were never any past tiies to the Ndn community or Nation. The problem I saw was that most people in the Club were pretty much doing the same thing. So they would grap a little from this Culture or that one. The problem with this is not only does the the person end up with a wrong picture. Most Heritage Groups are social and do no harm. Some of these Groups/Tribes have presented themselves as legimate and made themselves eligable for Grant money. A one case senerio is within the past couple of years a "Tribe",  unrecognized by anyone, managed to obtain Indian Education Monies. Now a lot of time, and effort is spent trying to get the money back and distributed to where it rightfully belongs. I don't know how much of this you have seen one way or the other, I've seen quite a bit. So I might ask questions. And to me a question is just trying to obtain some authorative information.  CNO has a list of well over 250 faux  and /Internet Tribes. The Lenape' have a handful. And  a good majority of them are always asking for money or donations. I know the majority do not give back to the Nation they claim. So where goes the money. That's why I always have questions.  
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: justmeagain on May 12, 2008, 06:11:51 pm
Again, [Childish insults and lies]

AN ACTUAL CERTIFIED DOCUMENT THAT IS DERIVED FROM A FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE BEEN POSTED. THAT DOCUMENT RECOGNIZES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. HAS DESCENDED FROM THE TRIBAL ROLLS
OF A FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE, WHICH MOST OF YOU WHO SEEM TO BE PROTESTING DO NOT ACCEPT, THOUGH IT HAS BEEN PROVEN VALID BY IT'S NOTARIZED CERTIFICATION AND SIGNATURE FROM A THIS FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE, THAT YOU ALL HAVE NOT CHOSEN TO ACCEPT.

You state this Forum is strictly to prove the Balck Water Band is not a valid Tribe, yet
[libel deleted]

[Spam deleted]

[Insults deleted]

[Spam deleted]

I ask you accusers again, present your evidence to the contrary about the Individual
[libel deleted]

Regards
justmeagain 

I am bored with this thread [Insults deleted]
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on May 12, 2008, 06:33:00 pm
[Spam deleted]

Has I have stated before, I have not spammed (unless you
consider me asking the 3 questions again, spam), have not
dodged, avoided, sidetracked or lied.  But if you feel [Insults deleted]

From Al:
 Whether this was or nor, it seems we won't know. Meeting to talk about a lawsuit, which might have implications for other groups, is not nearly the same as being recognized or having longstanding ties.

[Spam deleted]
Does this have implications for other people or groups
of people who insist on calling themselves something they are not
or misrepresenting themselves in the public eye? You bet it does!

Selling honorary memberships to Germans?
Where is the proof?

And which members of my clan/family have repeatedly libeled NAFPS
and/or its members? Cut and pastes and login names from this
forum please?
[Insults deleted]

Lekay and Yeagley? I don't know them. What do they have to do
with any of this?

[Insults deleted]
[Spam deleted]

I agree with justmeagain. I'm done here. I have nothing more to
say nor will I answer any more new questions and/or accusations
[Spam deleted]
[libel deleted]

Liz Roemer
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 12, 2008, 06:50:28 pm
If my previous post is deleted, it will be obvious that the administrators have chosen to "hide the truth" and "hide facts" that are well known in
Indian Country. There is nothing you can do or say to change the facts, that you accusers do not seem to accept. If this is a real Forum about Fraud Native Americans, the subscribers would be allowed to see the postings, as long as they show the facts and tell the truth. I am bored
with this thread and done for good unless evidence with the documents can be produced to answer my questions about the Individual you have
slandered by name, many, many times over on this thread.

REGARDS,
JUSTMEAGAIN

What facts? What truth? NOTHING you've posted is either fact or the truth. If you were in Congress, they'd call it filibustering. A lot of words with no meaning.

Fact: The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokees is not a recognized Tribe, not federally or by the state of Florida. So, the "official" document stating that Nichols is their Representative in Germany amounts to nothing at all.

Fact: The letter from The Poarch Band of Creek Indians states that Nichols is a Mvskoke descendant, nothing more and nothing less. He's not Mvskoke enough to be enrolled with the Poarch Band. And nothing has been posted stating that the Poarch Band recognizes the Blackwater Band as even being Mvskoke descendants.

Why has so much emphasis been placed on Larry Nichols? He's the face, the voice, of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokees in Germany. He's the one holding Powwows. He's the one making Germans honorary Mvskoke and giving out names.

Why are you so intent on defending the Blackwater Band and Larry Nichols? You said you weren't affiliated with either. You obviously have a dog in this fight. So, what is it?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 12, 2008, 07:06:12 pm
I have no affiliation with the Tribe or group in question, so I cannot personally be attacked in this regard, but I do protest the rights of a Federal Recognized Creek Indian and all Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED.

Was reading back over this thread and came across this gem. First, what "Federal Recognized Creek Indian" has even been discussed on this thread? None, nada, zip, zero. Second, there's no such thing as a "Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED". The federal government doesn't recognize a person of distant Indian ancestry as Native American. The federal government doesn't recognize anyone as Native American unless they're enrolled with a federally recognized tribe or one with state recognition. If your Nation doesn't recognize you, the federal government sure isn't going to.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 13, 2008, 06:37:47 am
Moma Pocupine has clearly stated,she has contacted the Poarch Creek(thank you)sigh now people  I suggest we all cool the personal name calling and yes we are ALL guilty,until such time as Poarch Creek respond and tell us all, one way or another ,thier exact postion in relation to Blackwater.Its not helpful,healthy or a rightious thing for us all to do,when lets face facts we are all wanting truthful clarification.
Al can I ask you to perhaps consider seperating the 'validity of Blackwater'issue,from Larry and Liz into two topics as it is clear they (understandibly perhaps)and Napfs members have diffuculty keeping the two matters apart no matter how many times its repeated this thread is about Blackwater.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 13, 2008, 07:31:02 am
Moma Pocupine has clearly stated,she has contacted the Poarch Creek(thank you)sigh now people  I suggest we all cool the personal name calling and yes we are ALL guilty,until such time as Poarch Creek respond and tell us all, one way or another ,thier exact postion in relation to Blackwater.Its not helpful,healthy or a rightious thing for us all to do,when lets face facts we are all wanting truthful clarification.
Al can I ask you to perhaps consider seperating the 'validity of Blackwater'issue,from Larry and Liz into two topics as it is clear they (understandibly perhaps)and Napfs members have diffuculty keeping the two matters apart no matter how many times its repeated this thread is about Blackwater.

And why would we want to separate this discussion into two threads? It's all part of the same issue. Larry Nichols and Liz Roemer threw themselves into this mix.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 13, 2008, 08:04:49 am
Maybe they did,but then as one of them was specificaly mentioned in the very first sentence of this thread,why wouldn't he/they?.And what is so difficult about waiting for Poarch Creek to respond to Moma porcupine's request?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on May 13, 2008, 01:45:34 pm
 I agree, I think it would be a good thing to just wait. It's become too defensive. So let's wait  to see if there is a response.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on May 14, 2008, 02:40:32 pm

1. Selling honorary memberships to Germans?
Where is the proof?

2. And which members of my clan/family have repeatedly libeled NAFPS
and/or its members?

3. Lekay and Yeagley? I don't know them. What do they have to do
with any of this?

Liz Roemer

1. There were some links we found to discussions on German messageboards. It seems that Nichols had faced some accusations. I was careful only to say that there were such accusations until I knew more, and hoped that the Blackwaters would tell us more rather than just shut down and refuse to speak. Now Ingeborg tells me the source was not credible. I'm glad to have that resolved.

2. Well, besides Granny? Besides Liz herself, repeating the same libel without proof? Besides Crazyeagle and Justme? Nichols seems to be the only Blackwater not to have repeatedly libelled. All he did was explode with anger once and leave.

3. Lekay and Yeagley are where some of the Blackwater got the libel that they repeated uncritically, without proof, numerous times. Whether Liz or any others in Blackwater realized it or not, they were being played by the Yeagledites and exploiters.

I think the waiting to hear back from Poarch Creek is good advice, but would like to point out one important thing:

Nowhere has Blackwater been "attacked". Asking questions is not attacking, esp since we repeatedly said our questions in calm careful measured tones (outside of at the end, when I became a little frustrated). That contrasts quite a bit with the way some of the Blackwaters have treated NAFPS members.

It's ironic that they chose to ignore the compliments NAFPS members paid them at times. Their work against exploiters in Europe deserves praise, and being descendants instead of an actual tribe (based on what we see so far) should not diminish that. Unfortunately their behavior makes it look like they have something to hide, and will probably be used by exploiters in Germany to discredit them.

BUt what we've always been talking about are comparately minor questions, certainly nothing to compare to the very serious abusers and exploiters like Holzwarth or the Deer Tribe. It's only the defensiveness and evasion which has drawn out what could have been a short simple discussion into such a long one.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on May 14, 2008, 03:31:30 pm
Quote
1. There were some links we found to discussions on German messageboards. It seems that Nichols had faced some accusations. I was careful only to say that there were such accusations until I knew more, and hoped that the Blackwaters would tell us more rather than just shut down and refuse to speak. Now Ingeborg tells me the source was not credible. I'm glad to have that resolved.

Just a small correction here: as far as I am aware, Larry Nichols never *faced* these accusations. Some rumours were voiced in a forum which Larry Nichols does not frequent, so I wouldn't say they were said to his face; 'behind his back' should be a more correct way to phrase it. From all I've seen, it was just someone going on about him at a place they thought safe enough, and they did not expect to be called upon their BS by him.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 14, 2008, 03:45:45 pm
For the sake of clarity,when we use the term "Blackwaters",we are referring to the two peoples in Europe and the majority in the US,yes?.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on May 15, 2008, 07:34:12 pm
I still haven't heard back from the Poarch Creek Band.  If they get a lot of spam it's possible they never even noticed I emailed them.  I used the email in the contact link on this webpage,

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/contact.htm

I suppose if someone involved with the Blackwater group knows someone in the tribal council who would be willing confirm that the Poarch Creek band recognizes the Black Water Muskokee band, as a Nation,  they could ask them to email Al from the Tribal Council, to confirm this. Otherwise I will just wait and let people know if and when I hear back from them.

I don't mean to leave people siting on the edges of their seats, but I'm not sure what else I can do.

It is a good thing that this group speaks out against exploitation of ceremonies, and I hope people will understand that these are completely seperate issues. What this group has said against this abuse is still valid, and I hear these people have done good things in this regard, even if the Blackwater Muskokee turn out to be more of a heritge group, and not really a tribe.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on May 15, 2008, 11:06:15 pm
Thank you for your patience moma.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: loudcrow on July 19, 2008, 02:10:57 am
To clarify matters, both Larry and I resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
over 2 years ago due to the lack of proper leadership and sheer stupidity. Neither of us is
responsible for the actions of this group and we will not answer any questions about them.
Period.

I am posting because Francis and T/T/T are now parading around the UK Hobbyist scene with
the flag of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and claiming they are part of this band.
I have emailed the Blackwater Band about this and have been informed they are not a band but
are stomp dancers. So I guess that explains the Billingtons doing a stomp dance at the Bison Farm
PowWow last week.

In closing, please label the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee appropriately. Larry and I
are deeply embarassed by their decision to condone this type of activity by the Billingtons with the
"stamp of approval" of the Blackwater Band. Neither Larry or I had anything to do with this decision
and are as shocked and dismayed as the rest of the Natives reading this post and allowing Twinkies
and WannaBes to disgrace all Natives in such a manner is positively vile. The Blackwater Band should
be ashamed of themselves. I know I am certainly ashamed of them.

Crow with a loud voice

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on July 19, 2008, 11:24:27 pm
I suggest before ANY of you go ant further you all re aquaint yourselves with 'THE PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP' in Welcome and news.By that I mean all of its points.Now I suggest those peoples who want to find out if Blackwater is bogus,speak directly with Poarch Band and accertain from them if or who is bogus or not.Or is that too difficult a thing for folks to do?.I also suggest you digest very carefully what Napfs itself says it will or will not do.The reality is dispite the deletions this stuff is being sent out to the nations and peoples first and then posted on NaPFS,so i suggest you all loose the gossip and start coming up with cold hard facts and questions,NOT gossip.


I contacted the Muscogee (Creek) Nation about the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee. I asked if they were afiliated with the Blackwater Band and/or if they recognized them as a legitimate tribe or band. I also asked if members of the Blackwater Band have authority to represent the Mvskoke, to people in Europe? I received a reply from Joyce Bear, their Historic Preservation Officer, yesterday evening. Her reply was also sent to Robert Thrower, Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, along with a copy of my original e-mail. I received a reply from Thrower this morning. Below are both e-mails:

Muscogee (Creek) Nation
Quote
Re: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Joyce Bear (preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov)
Sent: Fri 7/18/08 5:17 PM
To:  Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com); Bonnie Singleton (bls926@msn.com)

There are ONLY TWO  FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED "CREEK' TRIBES in the United States......   The Poarch Band of Creek Indians located in Atmore, Alabama.   and the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, located in Okmulgee, Oklahoma......  The Muscogee (Creek) Nation DOES NOT recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one represents the Muscogee (Creek) Nation unless they are an elected official or appointed by our Principal Chief A. D. Ellis....The people you have mention, I have never heard of them....  and NO... they do not represent the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in any way or form...... I cannot speak for the Poarch Band....   I suggest that you contact Robert Thrower and the Poarch Band.....
Joyce A. Bear, Historic Preservation Officer, Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Quote
RE: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sat 7/19/08 9:48 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com
Cc:  preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov; rgthrower@hotmail.com


Bonnie

I concur with Joyce Bear, as a sovereign American Indian Nation, the Poarch Creeks do not recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State (or self) recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one can represent our Tribe unless duly appointed by our Tribal Council.

Robert G. Thrower
Tribal Historic Preservation Officer
Poarch Band of Creek Indians


Cold hard facts; NOT gossip
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on July 20, 2008, 02:06:20 pm
Thank you, bls.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on July 20, 2008, 02:26:31 pm
You're welcome. Just trying to help.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: dabosijigwokush on July 21, 2008, 01:49:47 am
at last now this one can be laid to rest
it needs to be sent to the uk to dispell the billingtons deeds,and to clear the air once and for all
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on July 21, 2008, 02:06:19 am
Research complete; needs to be moved to Frauds.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: zoi lightfoot on July 21, 2008, 11:09:32 am
Thank you,thats all i asked for in the first place,I will leave the main body of the Blackwater to your selves as they are in the States and I will speak with the two here AND the Billingtons.As the Billingtons themselves have some other matters to clarify with the ex pat community.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 08, 2009, 11:52:32 pm
It's Powwow time in Germany again.

http://home.arcor.de/muskokee/pow09.htm

Mvskoke Ocese a-cee we-wau
8. NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW
Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees e.V.  
30. & 31. Mai 2009
In Mengen, Landkreis Sigmaringen, Germany
auf dem Gelände des Festplatzes Mengen.
Schirmherrschaft ist die Stadt Mengen i.V. Herr Burgermeister Bubeck.
Pow-wow Organisations-Kontaktperson: Benny & Marianne Auer Tel. 0162-2923763 (Benny) oder Tel. 0173-4305647 (Marianne)



MUSKOKEE-POWWOW-TIME IN SEPTEMBER
9. NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW
Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees e.V.
12. & 13. September 2009
in Heilbronn-Horkheim, Germany
auf dem Gelände neben dem Steinbruchbetrieb BMK
Anfahrt Horkheim

This Pow-wow is dedicated to
our European host as a cultural exchange of friendship
 
Special Guests (Subject to change)
Trisha Nell Sokolowski & son Cherokee
Barbara Kaden Wetz Ojibwa
Brenda Volle Ojibwa
Liz Roemer Cherokee-Creek
Linda Lou Flewin Micmac
Rita Schmidt Ojibwa
Lakishia Wallace Choctaw
Larry Wynn & family Lakota
Alan Roy & family Lakota
Willie James Summers Cherokee
Robert Wallace & family Ojibwa
Bryan K McCollum & family Creek
Robert Parker & family Ojibwa
Peter Woener Choctaw-Creek
John Blackbird Cree
Frank Barber Shawnee
Elder Mark Kretschmer
Bill & Antonia Westerfield
Jack & Gabe Weber

MC: Willi James Summers & Mark Kretschmer
AD: Alan Roy & Bill Westerfield
Men’s Head Dancer: Robert Wallace & Jack Weber
Women’s Head Dancer: Lakishia Wallace & Antonia Westerfield
Host Drum: Wicahpi Oyate Drum aus der Schweiz
Guest Drum: Sweetgrass Indian Drum Singers aus Deutschland
Amp & Sound Techniker: Heinz Wellmann

Pow-wow Organisations-Kontaktperson: Benny & Marianne Auer Tel. 0162-2923763 (Benny) oder Tel. 0173-4305647 (Marianne)
 



Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 01:33:36 am
Well, this is still confusing.  I don't see TTT/Francis involved but my understanding from the July 18 post that the Blackwater was not a band, rather a Stomp Dance group.  And people had distanced themselves from them as TTT was parading around with the Blackwater Flag.  Are they doing Stomps at Powwows now?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 09, 2009, 02:06:54 am
Well, this is still confusing.  I don't see TTT/Francis involved but my understanding from the July 18 post that the Blackwater was not a band, rather a Stomp Dance group.  And people had distanced themselves from them as TTT was parading around with the Blackwater Flag.  Are they doing Stomps at Powwows now?

I don't know what's so confusing about it. The Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees is part of the great Wannabe Nation. Nichols, Roemer, and anyone else involved with this group are PODIA's at best, hobbyists at worst case scenario. They do not have the support of either the Creek Nation or the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Frederica, where did you get the idea that the Blackwater was a Stomp Dance group? To the Mvskoke, and others, Stomp Dance is ceremony, a special time. To link this group of frauds with Stomp Dance is insulting.

People had distanced themselves because of a couple of English fakes? Well, maybe. Those two are obvious frauds. It's people like Nichols, Roemer, et al that are the real problem. Even though they were not raised in their culture and do not have the support of their Nation, because they have a drop or two of Native blood, they think they have the right to represent Native Americans in Europe. That's the real problem.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 09, 2009, 02:13:20 am
In light of the fact that Larry Nichols is still associated with the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokee and Liz Roemer will be a "special guest" at the September Powwow:


To clarify matters, both Larry and I resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
over 2 years ago due to the lack of proper leadership and sheer stupidity. Neither of us is
responsible for the actions of this group and we will not answer any questions about them.
Period.

I am posting because Francis and T/T/T are now parading around the UK Hobbyist scene with
the flag of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and claiming they are part of this band.
I have emailed the Blackwater Band about this and have been informed they are not a band but
are stomp dancers. So I guess that explains the Billingtons doing a stomp dance at the Bison Farm
PowWow last week.

In closing, please label the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee appropriately. Larry and I
are deeply embarassed by their decision to condone this type of activity by the Billingtons with the
"stamp of approval" of the Blackwater Band. Neither Larry or I had anything to do with this decision
and are as shocked and dismayed as the rest of the Natives reading this post and allowing Twinkies
and WannaBes to disgrace all Natives in such a manner is positively vile. The Blackwater Band should
be ashamed of themselves. I know I am certainly ashamed of them.

Crow with a loud voice


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 02:21:22 am
In light of the fact that Larry Nichols is still associated with the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokee and Liz Roemer will be a "special guest" at the September Powwow:


To clarify matters, both Larry and I resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
over 2 years ago due to the lack of proper leadership and sheer stupidity. Neither of us is
responsible for the actions of this group and we will not answer any questions about them.
Period.
I am posting because Francis and T/T/T are now parading around the UK Hobbyist scene with
the flag of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and claiming they are part of this band.
I have emailed the Blackwater Band about this and have been informed they are not a band but
are stomp dancers. So I guess that explains the Billingtons doing a stomp dance at the Bison Farm
PowWow last week.

Crow with a loud voice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That is exactly where I got it from her July 18 quote.  I am well aware of what a Stomp is, apparently they are not.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 09, 2009, 02:44:15 am
In light of the fact that Larry Nichols is still associated with the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokee and Liz Roemer will be a "special guest" at the September Powwow:


To clarify matters, both Larry and I resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
over 2 years ago due to the lack of proper leadership and sheer stupidity. Neither of us is
responsible for the actions of this group and we will not answer any questions about them.
Period.
I am posting because Francis and T/T/T are now parading around the UK Hobbyist scene with
the flag of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and claiming they are part of this band.
I have emailed the Blackwater Band about this and have been informed they are not a band but
are stomp dancers. So I guess that explains the Billingtons doing a stomp dance at the Bison Farm
PowWow last week.

Crow with a loud voice
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That is exactly where I got it from her July 18 quote.  I am well aware of what a Stomp is, apparently they are not.

I think Roemer is saying that the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokee, in Florida, stated that Francis and T/T/T  "are not a band but are stomp dancers". No one said that the Blackwater Band, either the group in Florida or the group in Germany, were Stomp Dancers. Truth of the matter, both groups are frauds.

I find it interesting that Roemer started that statement (dated July 18, 2008) by telling us that she and Nichols "resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee over 2 years ago". That would make it roughly late spring, early summer 2006. Why is Nichols still doing the Blackwater Powwows? Every year since 2002; hasn't missed a year. Why is Roemer still associating with them? She's a special guest in September.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on March 09, 2009, 02:50:37 am
That's why it is confusing, it is doublespeak.  Or a really poor memory.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 09, 2009, 03:56:39 am
At least I don't see anything about Larry claiming to be Chief or ambassador any more. Thats a definite improvement ...


Quote
Organizers:
Blackwater Band of Lower Germany Muskokees e.V.
     
Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees
1. Chairman: Larry D. Nichols
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on March 09, 2009, 05:17:25 pm
oh, I think it is not so confusing.....

I was at that PW once- as trader and don't ask me about it... it could be that I won't be friendly... when I will describe it in friendly words....

For Larry- nearly all NA people living here are not real NAs just he and his friends are.  Well known names, respected people--- he kick at their ass, as he says (looong telephone call we hat)- because they are not NDN....
He is against everything , people doing sweats here for money and so on--- all bad (I personally dont like this either) but one guy- I really know he did sweats for money--- he is ok (because he once was at Larrys Powwow)-- at that telephone call- I just could shake my had.

So-- the thing is-- to make a real NA powwow- he simply does not have the people. No well respected NA is still going there, as far as I know- (But I don't know all that are on that list)-- so what should he do- he just can do it as ever.

--- So I don't wonder....

But thanks to all for that informations.

Thank you says Elke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 09, 2009, 07:55:04 pm
oh, I think it is not so confusing.....

I was at that PW once- as trader and don't ask me about it... it could be that I won't be friendly... when I will describe it in friendly words....

For Larry- nearly all NA people living here are not real NAs just he and his friends are.  Well known names, respected people--- he kick at their ass, as he says (looong telephone call we hat)- because they are not NDN....
He is against everything , people doing sweats here for money and so on--- all bad (I personally dont like this either) but one guy- I really know he did sweats for money--- he is ok (because he once was at Larrys Powwow)-- at that telephone call- I just could shake my had.

So-- the thing is-- to make a real NA powwow- he simply does not have the people. No well respected NA is still going there, as far as I know- (But I don't know all that are on that list)-- so what should he do- he just can do it as ever.

--- So I don't wonder....

But thanks to all for that informations.

Thank you says Elke


What should Nichols do? Oh, I don't know . . . Maybe quit playing Indian. What do you think?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on March 09, 2009, 11:13:39 pm
I don't know....

the situation among some people here is something confuse. After ca 2 Years of battles between some powwow groups here everything is somehow separated. His Powwow is one of the ones I don't go- one time was much to much. Otherwise here the world is small and when something is out of the box- it is impossible to get it in as it was.

I don't know....

The only thing I know- as many others: I will not go to that powwow anymore, because of what happened these years ago...

http://www.powwow-kalender.de/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=3&thread=79&page=2

This thread in a German forum started about a falen Roach on a German Powwow, where a dancer (I just can shake my head about his behavior) didn't behave correct..... but funny is this illustre discussion that came later-- from all these illustre people that argues to defend their native herritage (most of them are listed here...you don't have to ask me where)

Most of the thread starting at the 2nd page is written in English- the importand parts of it.....

Smilling dream Crow- Liz Roemer
Hanswurst- as far as I know it is her husband
Tonya Hountingwolf- a relative to Larry Nichols
Holla ---me

Funny how these guys define their NA status and how they argue to people that never ever will say they have family relations to NA people and who definitively will tell everybody that they are powwow dancers AND white AND nothing between. Funny how things change, if they are doing them and when others do them- when the thread was written- I had not seen, that Tonya is a healing stone trader--- so bad--- my arguing would be much better if knowing this--- tooo bad!

Yes- I know, you don't like white powwow dancers and I accept this.



Liz, 26.May 2005:
" I am usually sick for days after going to Hobbyist PowWows"

I really don't know why I met her later at Bison Farm powwow and why she still seems to go to English Powwows when she is so sick afterwards.....




Greetings from ELke

 
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on March 10, 2009, 01:26:39 am
The lady going by the name of Tonya Hountingwolf is no relative of Larry Nichols. She is a German posing as a Cherokee, her legal name in Germany at the point in time she wrote in that forum was Tanja Fehlauer; presently she is married to Francis Billington, a British citizen who claims to be a clairvoyant. They're both exploiting ndn spirituality. There is a thread on them here in the fraud section, titled Grey Wolf and Tonya.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on March 10, 2009, 03:58:31 am
That forum was a hoot! A bunch of wannabes telling a bunch of hobbyists what is and isn't the "Native Way".

Below are some of their posts, with my thoughts added. I didn't quote the entire thing; no point in posting the German.


Powwow-Forum
http://www.powwow-kalender.de/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=3&thread=79&page=2


It upsets Liz when Germans try to tell Indians what their customs should be. Yeah, bothers me too when non-Natives pretend to be Native.

Quote
Montag, 23. Mai. 2005, 17:14
I am deeply distressed by this topic of discussion. The majority of your were not at Burbach and are only going by what you have heard .... GOSSIP. Others are mixing Native American beliefs and/or customs with New Age BS. And others are giving me the distinct impression that, again, Germans are trying to tell us Native Americans what our customs should or shouldn´t be and how things should or shouldn´t be done.
Smiling Dream Crow



Tonya doesn't understand why some people try to pretend to be someone they aren't. We don't understand that either.

Quote
Montag, 23. Mai. 2005, 19:14
Hello everybody , ( English and German Version )
First of all, I cannot understand, why our culture will be discussed in a place like that. And all those who don´t know what they are talking about, need to stop discussing. Our culture is not for sale, nor is it for people who want to tell us how to be native.

I feel ashamed for my part german, because again some wannabees try to tell everybody, that they know everything about our ways ( even they know nothing about it ).

And I will never get the point, why some people try to be somebody else, instead of being proud of what they are.

I was not in Burbach. And I am glad, that I didn´t went.
But I will say one more thing :
If you are going to a Pow Wow, then you are welcome, as long as you don´t pretend to be native or tell us how to be native. If you honor our ways, culture and traditions, then there is nothing wrong with it. But if you kick our culture and pretend to be native or pretend to know everything better, than you better not show up at a Pow Wow again.
Tonya Hountingwolf



Poor benzi doesn't realize he isn't talking to Native Americans.

Quote
Montag, 23. Mai. 2005, 22:15
Hallo,
thank you for your postings. May be the discussion in this internet forum can change something in the mind of somebody, who knows.

For me, it was the only place were I can talk with somebody about the problems between the natives and the german Pow Wow dancers, like that one in Burbach.

I don´t know who are the persons behind the nicks in this forum.

So when I read something about indian culture and religion, I didn´t know, was it written by a german or a native member of this forum.

I was very surprised about the fact, that here was talking about the indian religion.

I hope we can find a way to respect each other and dance together in the future.......

best wishes for you all and I hope there are not so many mistakes inside

benzi



"Proven Native American"? He forgot Descendant. Six generations . . . his great-great-great-great-grandmother. The Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokee is not a Nation; it's not a Tribe. Nichols is not recognized as Mvskoke by the Creek Nation or the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Quote
Dienstag, 24. Mai. 2005, 11:33
Yes, it is true that I speak out about abuse of our Native American culture and traditions and have even won legal battles, and will continue to win in your German Court rooms trying to protect our culture, traditions and dignity.

Your German laws give me the RIGHT as a "proven Native American" to speak out to those that will abuse and misuse our Native American culture. Now, if that is a problem for you Sir, there are several ways to settle this problem of yours. I am a generous man and will give you the opportunity of choice, to make yourself clear and to show all of us what honor and respect you have if any.

I,m not here to tell any one to shout their mouths! But when individuals talk about my people, culture and traditions, which from my point of view is totally full of bullshit, misuse and no respect what so ever, due to the fact that these people have very little knowledge if any, about Native Americans in general, which they have seen on their T.V. sets and read some Karl May books. So, I am telling you Sir, do what you think is right, I will be here.

Chief Larry D. Nichols
Lower Muskokee/Creek
Tribal European Representative



For someone claiming to be Cherokee/Creek, Liz really doesn't know much about either Nation's spirituality. Powwows are not "holy"; they aren't even traditional. 

Quote
Dienstag, 24. Mai. 2005, 13:17
A forum on the Internet is not the proper place to discuss what did or did not happen there and it certainly is not the proper place to discuss our religious beliefs and/or ceremonies.

I honestly do not know how to get the message across that PowWows are holy for us and our religion is so intertwined with our PowWows, daily life, etc. that it is extremely difficult to say what is recreational and what is religious. If in doubt, it is advisable to be quiet and listen so as not to offend.

Chief Nichols, Tonya Hounting Wolf and I will be at the PowWow in Heilbronn. We are more than willing to share our culture with those who show RESPECT. If you have any questions, please feel free to come there and speak with us
Smiling Dream Crow
(Liz Roemer)



Here we go again with the "sacred" powwow. Doesn't Tonya claim to be Cherokee? You'd think these wannabes would do a little more research.

Quote
Mittwoch, 25. Mai. 2005, 00:35
And we will not tolerate, when some people think, that they have to offer " Seminars about sweatlodges " or anything like this for expensive money.
Those things are sacred to us, the same like a Pow Wow is sacred to us
. And nobody should play with it, the same like nobody should play with Eaglefeathers or misshonor those things.
Tonya


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: tachia on March 10, 2009, 05:58:03 am
wow .. .. lol .. i am still reading the forum Elke gave the link to .. have to keep stopping for a bit .. it is a good laugh at the very least .. yet also very sad to see such misappropriation and commodification of our Ways by these people .. and then the pot calling the kettle black on top of it all .. fake ndn's yelling at other fake ndn's .. just wow .. ..

still reading, but thanks Elke for the link! .. it certainly does give much more insight into these people! ..
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on March 10, 2009, 09:05:44 am
As I said-- you don't have to like us dancing at powwows-- but the main difference between Larrys group and the white dancers is--- They know they are white and will never tell anybody anything else.

And believe me-- The telephone call I had with Larry- more than 2 hours of bla and the same shit turning in circles....
- I wasted my time!

Ryan is indeed a Mandan and maybe the only NA there as far as I still remember the discussion.

@ Ingeborg-- sorry that was my Information, that ended arround the end of that discussion at powwow-kalender- I read some pages here, but not all- I don't have the time at the moment.----- now I saw- it was not Tonya-- it was Liz Roemer (as I read here shortly before, on page 3 or so)

Greetings from ELke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on March 10, 2009, 09:36:35 am
Posted by educatedindian:
I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.



------------------

when I had a loooong telephone call with Larry,

he explained this to me:

He said, in the eastern communities there were war and peace chiefs. What he is here for his  Band, he has the position as a warchief.

-----

as far as I remember--- and (I just read 1 or 2 pages now,where I found that) just because nobody can tell anybody anything anymore.... and nobody seems to be involved at anytime-- as I understood the posts of Liz at the 2 sides of the thread I read--- but my English is not so perfect- sorry for that.

Greetings from Elke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on March 10, 2009, 04:21:22 pm
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1105962872.1105962872.3.new_age_fraud_web_sites-indianer_nordamerikas.html


The thread was started by William Jervis to complain about NAFPS. There was a new reply by another person yesterday which I translated:

Re: new age fraud web sites, March 09, 2009, 16:14
by: guest frank

Quote
So I happen to look per chance at this nafps racist hate site today.... I cannot find other words for that... I almost dropped dead, they're dragging our „blackwaterbandoflowermuskokee e.v.“ through the shit there – with excerpts badly translated into English and much copy & past [sic].

I'm a laid back man, but that's too much... and many names in this forum [i.e. forum romanum] are to be found there, too. I am Larry's „brother“ to express this in your fullbloodgermanisbetter mentality, and persons offending him are offending the entire organisation and also me as a webmaster of the site www.muskokee.de

Have a look at the other powwows in Germany, ours is as good or as bad – but I think we're a little bit better;-))

And just ask yourselves whether you shouldn't start at yourselves!? With NAAoG, the forum once got closed down due to such escapades... you're meanwhile pulling yourselves together a little here...

Top 10 Things To Say To A Non-Indian Upon First Meeting
10. How much white are you?
9. I‘m part white myself, you know.
8. I learned all your people‘s ways in the Boy Scouts (Order of the Bullet).
7. My great-great-grandmother was a full-blooded European princess.
6. Funny, you don‘t look white.
5. Where‘s your powdered wig and knickers?
4. Do you live in a covered wagon?
3. What‘s the meaning behind the square dance?
2. Oh wow, I really love your hair! Can I touch it?
1. What‘s your feeling about river-boat casinos? Do they really help your people or are they just a short-term fix?
Buffalo-strong greetings
frank

Calling NAFPS a 'racist hate site' speaks volumes, as does Frank's assumption that NAFPS must be a Euro project. The inability to imagine such a project as NAFPS can be and is in fact founded and run by ndns, I'm afraid, points to the very same.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: frederica on March 10, 2009, 07:21:29 pm
Quote from: bls926
quote


I contacted the Muscogee (Creek) Nation about the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee. I asked if they were afiliated with the Blackwater Band and/or if they recognized them as a legitimate tribe or band. I also asked if members of the Blackwater Band have authority to represent the Mvskoke, to people in Europe? I received a reply from Joyce Bear, their Historic Preservation Officer, yesterday evening. Her reply was also sent to Robert Thrower, Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, along with a copy of my original e-mail. I received a reply from Thrower this morning. Below are both e-mails:

Muscogee (Creek) Nation
Quote
Re: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Joyce Bear (preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov)
Sent: Fri 7/18/08 5:17 PM
To:  Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com); Bonnie Singleton (bls926@msn.com)

There are ONLY TWO  FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED "CREEK' TRIBES in the United States......   The Poarch Band of Creek Indians located in Atmore, Alabama.   and the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, located in Okmulgee, Oklahoma......  The Muscogee (Creek) Nation DOES NOT recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one represents the Muscogee (Creek) Nation unless they are an elected official or appointed by our Principal Chief A. D. Ellis....The people you have mention, I have never heard of them....  and NO... they do not represent the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in any way or form...... I cannot speak for the Poarch Band....   I suggest that you contact Robert Thrower and the Poarch Band.....
Joyce A. Bear, Historic Preservation Officer, Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Quote
RE: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sat 7/19/08 9:48 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com
Cc:  preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov; rgthrower@hotmail.com


Bonnie

I concur with Joyce Bear, as a sovereign American Indian Nation, the Poarch Creeks do not recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State (or self) recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one can represent our Tribe unless duly appointed by our Tribal Council.

Robert G. Thrower
Tribal Historic Preservation Officer
Poarch Band of Creek Indians


Cold hard facts; NOT gossip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   This is the statements BLS received from the Poach Creek Muscogee and the Muscogee Creek Nation last year.  These people are not recognized.  You cannot be a Warchief, ambassador, or anything else unless they have been appointed by the Tribal Council of that Nation.  A coyote no matter how you dress it up is still a coyote.  Some things are just facts. 
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on March 10, 2009, 07:49:06 pm
I don't know exactly, but as I remember, a friend told my (he had gone to this powwow some years, Larry had shown him something like a enrollment card or something like that... but it was more than a half year ago--- I maybe don't remember right... I should ask him.

Greetings from ELke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on March 11, 2009, 01:27:42 am
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1105962872.1105962872.3.new_age_fraud_web_sites-indianer_nordamerikas.html


The thread was started by William Jervis to complain about NAFPS. There was a new reply by another person yesterday which I translated:

Re: new age fraud web sites, March 09, 2009, 16:14
by: guest frank

Quote
So I happen to look per chance at this nafps racist hate site today.... I cannot find other words for that... I almost dropped dead, they're dragging our „blackwaterbandoflowermuskokee e.v.“ through the shit there....
Buffalo-strong greetings
frank

Calling NAFPS a 'racist hate site' speaks volumes, as does Frank's assumption that NAFPS must be a Euro project. The inability to imagine such a project as NAFPS can be and is in fact founded and run by ndns, I'm afraid, points to the very same.

Oh yes, I got a hysterical message from him, saying "Where are the Indians?!" followed by a mini rant in German.

Hopefully he's reading this, so he can know...he was talking about a mostly NDN and mostly mixedblood forum and doesn't have a clue about NDNs today, just his own racist fantasies that he is demanding we live up to.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on April 04, 2009, 08:52:35 pm
I don't know exactly, but as I remember, a friend told my (he had gone to this powwow some years, Larry had shown him something like a enrollment card or something like that... but it was more than a half year ago--- I maybe don't remember right... I should ask him.

Greetings from ELke

Not sure what Larry Nichols showed your friend. One thing I am sure of, it was not a valid enrollment card. Nichols is not enrolled or even recognized by either of the only two legitimate Mvskoke Nations. Why do we need to keep repeating this fact?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on April 06, 2009, 08:48:29 pm
But what showed L. Nichols to the people??????

Here newly to read in a German Forum:

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1107008110.1107008110.2.pow_wow_mengen-indianer_nordamerikas.html

From Guenther Fischer:

Hi Benny,
auch ich kenne Larry seit einigen Jahren und seine PowWows, seinen Kampf gegen Wannabees und gegen respektlose "Hobbyisten". Leider hat dieser Kampf Larry nicht davon abgehalten, Personen genau aus diesem Personenkreis immer wieder auf seinem PowWow als echte Natives oder ernsthafte Freunde der indianischen Kultur zu präsentieren. Dieses ist bedauerlich, denn es hat ihm selbst und seiner Reputation sehr geschadet.
Ich kenne ebenfalls Larry´s Ausweis, Member-Card und seinen Stammbaum - letzteren sogar im Detail.
Um hier Missverständnissen vorzubeugen: Larry ist ohne Zweifel ein Native.
Allerdings solltest Du hier nicht den Eindruck erwecken, daß unter Larry´s Vorfahren nur Natives sind. Entweder hast Du seinen Stammbaum nicht gesehen oder Du hast Dich mit den genealogischen und historischen Details nicht befasst. Unter Larry´s Vorfahren sind viele Europäer, was mit der Geschichte der Muscoogee zusammen hängt und nichts Ungewöhnliches ist. Dieser Stamm hatte eine hochstehende Kultur und mischte sich sehr bereitwillig mit den ersten europäischen Siedlern, mit denen sie anfangs ein sehr friedvolles Miteinander pflegten. Daraus resultiert auch das eher europäische Aussehen von Larry, was ihm ja gelegentlich auch schon vorgeworfen wurde.
Larry ist nach der Rechtsauffassung der Muscoogee Nation in Oklahoma kein Muscoogee und auch in Álabama (Poarch) kann ihm nur bestätigt werden, daß seine Vorfahren in der Stammesrolle eingetragen sind. Er selbst kann auch nach meinem Verständnis der Muscoogee-Verfassung nicht in die Stammesrolle eingetragen werden. Allerdings hat Larry meines Wissens auch nie behauptet, Mitglied der Muscoogee Nation zu sein. Seine Verwandten leben in Florida und bilden dort eine relativ kleine Gruppe (Blackwater Band), die die Muscoogee Tradition weiter pflegt. In dieser Tradition sieht sich Larry und diese wird auf seinem PowWow vermittelt.
Ich wünsche Euch in Mengen eine friedvolles und harmonisches Treffen.
Guenther
-------------------------------------------------------

b. bussard:
Du kannst es einfach nicht lassen!?
Phantasie hast du offenbar genug, dann stell dir vor Du bist in einem fremden Land - Du stellst fest, viele, ja sogar sehr viele Einheimische erfreuen sich eines deutschen Folklore-Tanz. Sie nähen sich die Trachten, gründen Vereine u. lesen einpaar Bücher über deutsche Kultur.- Hier könnte ich mich wohlfühlen, denkst Du und bleibst. Du gibst Ratschläge u. Tips und organisierst selbst deutsche Kultur-Feste. Toll - bis eines Tages jemand schlecht auf dich zu sprechen ist u. behauptet Du bist gar kein Deutscher, sondern ein Betrüger ! Damit nicht genug, dieser Jemand versucht Informationen über Dich einzuholen, nur um Dich als Betrüger hinstellen zu können!!!
Ich glaube , gerade jemand wie Du, würde explodieren.

Ich kenne Larry nun schon einige Jahre u. durch Ihn einige sehr einflußreiche Nativ, sie alle kennen diese blöden Versuche, Ihn als Betrüger darzustellen. Hier findet man nur verständnisloses Kopfschütteln. Ich habe seinen Ausweis u. auch seine Member-Card gesehen, so wie 2 dicke Bücher in denen all die Stammbäume verschiedener Personen (Nativ) aus mehreren Stämmen verzeichnet u. aufgeführt sind. Mit dabei, die Familie u. der Clan von Larry Nichols von Anbeginn der Aufzeichnungen.In diesen Chroniken sind ausschließlich Nativ’s aufgeführt.
Desweiteren solltest du bedenken, daß es in den Staaten Gruppen gibt, die professionellen Rassenhass, speziell gegen Nativ, gibt. Für die sind Leute wie Du es bist, ein gefundenes Fressen ! Du solltest in Ruhe darüber nachdenken, bevor du wieder jemanden ans Bein pissen willst. (sorry,für meine Ausdrucksweise). Ich für meinen Teil möchte dieses leidige Thema beenden.
Ich wollte in diesem Forum nur einpaar nette Leute zu unserem Pow Wow einladen.
Benny.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on April 06, 2009, 09:41:38 pm
From Guenther Fischer:

Hi Benny,
I also know Larry for some years and his powwows, his struggle against wanabees and respectless "hobbyists". Unfortunatelly this struggle didn't keep him off presenting people of this group as real NAs or real NA-interested  people on his powwows. This is sad, because it damaged him and his reputation.
I know Larry's Passport, Member card and his family tree- and the last one in detail.
to prefent of missunderstanding, without any question Larry is NA
But you shouldn't show the impression here that Larry has just NA ancestors. Either you haven't seen his family tree or you haven't dealed with the genealogic or historic details. Many Europeans are under his ancestors, what is related with Muskogee history and what is not unusual. This tribe had a high standing Culture and liked to mix with the first European settlers, with whom the lived together in a friendly way first. This is where Larrys European look came from and what was accused to him sometimes.

Larry is at the view of the rights of the Musk. Nation in Oklahoma NO muskogee and also in Alabama he just can get confirmed that his ancestors are enrrolled. He himself can, in my understanding (guenther)of the Muskogee bill of rights, not beeing enrolled. But Larry never said (in my knowledge)(Guenther) that he is member of the muskogee Nation. His relatives live in Florida and are a small group there (Blackwater band), who are preserving the Muskogee Tradition. In this tradition Larry sees himself and he is telling that to the people at his powwow. I wish you a peacefull and harmonic meeting in Mengen.
 Guenther
 
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------

b. bussard:
You can't stop it (me ha!)!?
you have enough phantasy, than think of you are in a foreign country -You notice, many, many many native inhabitants like typical German Folklore- dance. They make themselfes outfits, founding clubs and read some books about German culture.- Here I will like to be, you think and stay. you give advices and Tips and organizes German Culture events--- until one day, somebody didn't like you and say you are no German, but a fraud! But not enough, this guy is searching for informations about you to show you as a fraud!!!!
I believe, esspecially somebody like you (me- he means) will explode.

I know Larry since some years and through him some NAs how have some influence, they all know these stubid tryings to show him as a fraud.
Here you just find unsympathetic headshakes. I have seen his passport and member card and 2 thick books within family trees of severall people (Natives) of severall tribes that are shown there. Within that Larrys family and clan from the start of recording- and at that chronic, just NAs are shown.

beside that you should think about that there are groups in US, who show professionall racial hate against NAs. For them are people like you (me,lol) are something they are really looking for! you should think in silence before you will piss on somebodys legs again. I for my part will stop this tiresome theme.
I just wanted to invite some nice people to our powwow.
Benny.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on April 07, 2009, 12:32:42 am
Repeating what I said earlier.

Not sure what Larry Nichols showed your friend. One thing I am sure of, it was not a valid enrollment card. Nichols is not enrolled or even recognized by either of the only two legitimate Mvskoke Nations. Why do we need to keep repeating this fact?


Let me add . . . The Blackwater Muskogee are not an American Indian Nation, not a Tribe. They are a group of wannabes, pretendians. Some may have Mvskoke ancestors, which would make them descendants. They are not Indians.

I don't read German and your translation was a little hard to follow. So, I have no comment on what was posted on that forum.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on April 07, 2009, 12:35:54 pm
sorry for, it was also not very easy German , I tried to translate as good as I can.

The point is, these guys saw a card/paper whatever from Larry and beliefe this makes it somehow official. Larry showed them a family tree in a book-- or better some family trees of severall NAs of several tribes--- ans I just wondered, if this is normal Litrature in everyday NAs home bookdesk.

greetings from Elke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on April 07, 2009, 02:14:35 pm

The following is a better translation of the above mentioned entry in a German forum dd April 5, 2009, 21:32.


http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1107008110.1107008110.2.pow_wow_mengen-indianer_nordamerikas.html


author: Guenther Fischer

Hi Benny,
I've also known Larry [Nichols] and his powwows for years, his fight against Wanabis and against disrespectful 'hobbyists'. Unfortunately, this fight did no keep Larry from accepting persons from exactly these circles to his powwows as genuine natives or serious friends of Indian culture. This is deplorable as it did damage him and his reputation.

 I have also seen Larry's passport, his member card and his genealogy – the latter in detail.

In order to save us misunderstandings: Larry doubtless is a Native.

Still you shouldn't not provoke the impression here there were only Natives among Larry's ancestors. You either did not read his genealogy, or you did not pay attention to the genealogical and historical details. There are many Europeans among Larry's ancestors which is due to Muscoogee [sic] history and is nothing exceptional. This tribe had an advanced culture and very eagerly mixed with European settlers with whom they were living peacefully at first. Larry's European looks - which occasionally were held against him – result from this.

According to the legal standards of the Muscoogee [sic] Nation in Oklahoma, Larry is no Muscoogee and also Alabama (Poarch) can only confirm that his ancestors were on the tribal roll. Larry himself cannot be enrolled also in my understanding of the Muscoogee constitution. On the other hand, as far as I know, Larry never claimed to be a member of the Muscoogee Nation. His relatives live in Florida and are a relatively small group (Blackwater Band) who still observe Muscoogee traditions. Larry sees himself in this tradition and this [tradition] is taught at the powwows.
Wishing you a peaceful meeting full of harmony in Mengen,
Guenther
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 10, 2009, 05:11:50 am
Bumping for loudcrow's benefit.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Don Naconna on August 08, 2009, 01:30:30 pm
I have written to the Assembly of First Nations inquiring about Linda Lou Flewin claiming to be the Canadian Consul for Aboriginal people abroad. I will post their reply as soon as I receive it. I am also concerned that Linda Lou Flewin and her alter ego "Crazy Eagle" have made threats in an other forum. As others have noted Crazy Eagle refers to Ms. Flewin in the 3rd person and then signs posts with her name. Ms. Flewin is a well educated IT professional, yet in other forums she tries to sound like the most stereotypical illiterate, poor grammar,misspelled words and sounds like someone who is a white person impersonating an Indian. I also doubt that Ms.Lightfoot is what she claims to be. Has she ever been challenged to produce any credentials or to prove her position at the UN.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Moma_porcupine on August 09, 2009, 01:08:31 am
Hi Don

There is a long thread where this was discussed with Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou starting here.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

I'm not sure what else to say, as context is important and I don't want to just point out what IMO seems most relevent. To get the whole picture , you would probably need to read the whole thread. I guess it might help to pack a bag lunch and have whatever you use as headache medicine on hand , as it is a lot to get through.

Asking the Canadian Assembly of First Nations if they support these peoples claims, sounds like a really good idea! It will be interesting to hear what they have to say!
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on September 22, 2009, 03:20:02 am
MUSKOKEE-POWWOW-TIME IN SEPTEMBER
9. NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW
Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees e.V.
12. & 13. September 2009
in Heilbronn-Horkheim, Germany
auf dem Gelände neben dem Steinbruchbetrieb BMK
Anfahrt Horkheim

This Pow-wow is dedicated to
our European host as a cultural exchange of friendship
 
Special Guests (Subject to change)
Trisha Nell Sokolowski & son Cherokee
Barbara Kaden Wetz Ojibwa
Brenda Volle Ojibwa
Liz Roemer Cherokee-Creek
Linda Lou Flewin Micmac

Rita Schmidt Ojibwa
Lakishia Wallace Choctaw
Larry Wynn & family Lakota
Alan Roy & family Lakota
Willie James Summers Cherokee
Robert Wallace & family Ojibwa
Bryan K McCollum & family Creek
Robert Parker & family Ojibwa
Peter Woener Choctaw-Creek
John Blackbird Cree
Frank Barber Shawnee
Elder Mark Kretschmer
Bill & Antonia Westerfield
Jack & Gabe Weber

MC: Willi James Summers & Mark Kretschmer
AD: Alan Roy & Bill Westerfield
Men’s Head Dancer: Robert Wallace & Jack Weber
Women’s Head Dancer: Lakishia Wallace & Antonia Westerfield
Host Drum: Wicahpi Oyate Drum aus der Schweiz
Guest Drum: Sweetgrass Indian Drum Singers aus Deutschland
Amp & Sound Techniker: Heinz Wellmann

Pow-wow Organisations-Kontaktperson: Benny & Marianne Auer Tel. 0162-2923763 (Benny) oder Tel. 0173-4305647 (Marianne)



loudcrow and crazyeagle . . . How was the powwow?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Don Naconna on September 22, 2009, 02:21:53 pm
I have received no reply from the Assembly of First Nations. I doubt if they know anything about these so called ambassadors. I think they have misrepresented themselves. You have to have some credentials from your own government to call your self a representative of that government. These folks appear to have appointed themselves ambassadors.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Renee on September 25, 2009, 06:37:59 am
MUSKOKEE-POWWOW-TIME IN SEPTEMBER
........................................
. . . How was the powwow?

Absage des 9. american Native Pow Wow 12/13.09.09 Heilbronn ( 1 | 2 | 3 | » )

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1108034889.1108034889.1.absage_des_american_native_pow_wow_heilbronn-indianer_nordamerikas.html

Absage des 9. american Native Pow Wow 12/13.09.09 Heilbronn, 19 Aug. 2009 15:58 

BLACKWATER BAND OF LOWER MUSKOKEES e.V. GERMANY
Vorsitzender: Larry D. Nichols
Holunderweg 7, 74080 Heilbronn, Germany
Tel. 07131/1359145 / 01522-8925074
Email: larry.nichols@hotmail.de
Homepage: www. muskokee.de


18. August 2009
Liebe Powwow-Besucher und Freunde der indianischen Kultur,
leider müssen wir Ihnen mitteilen, dass das angekündigte 9. American Native Powwow am 12. und 13. September 2009 in Horkheim nicht stattfindet. Diese Entscheidung ist uns nicht leicht gefallen und wir bitten an dieser Stelle vielmals um Ihr Verständnis.

Der Verein der Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees e.V. Germany und ich persönlich standen in den letzten Monaten aufgrund einer Vielzahl von negativen Äußerungen unter enormen Druck und dass nur, weil wir uns seit Gründung des Vereins für die Aufrechterhaltung und den Schutz der Kultur und der Traditionen der Natives einsetzen und jeglichen Missbrauch ablehnen bzw. bekämpfen. In meiner Position als 1. Vorsitzender denke ich, dass es daher im besten Interesse unserer Mitglieder, Familien und der Leute, die uns über die Jahre hinweg unterstützt haben ist, dieses Powwow abzusagen.

Wir setzen hiermit auch ein Zeichen gegen den Missbrauch und Ausverkauf der Kultur und den Traditionen der Natives, welcher ganz besonders in der letzten Zeit in Deutschland bzw. in anderen Ländern stattfindet. Besonders Personen, die die heiligen Zeremonien der Natives (z.B. den Sonnentanz) hier praktizieren bzw. durch ihre Teilnahme unterstützen, beteiligen sich maßgeblich an diesem Missbrauch und wir lehnen es ab, diese Personen als Freunde der indianischen Kultur anzuerkennen, oder sie an unseren Aktivitäten teilnehmen zu lassen. Die nicht zutreffenden Äußerungen in den verschiedenen Internet-Foren bestärken uns umso mehr, uns von solchen Personen zu distanzieren.

Das 9. Native American Powwow wird im Mai 2010 in Mengen, Germany, stattfinden. Ich möchte mich persönlich bei allen, die geplant haben, unser Powwow in Horkheim zu besuchen bzw. daran teilzunehmen, für eventuelle Unannehmlichkeiten entschuldigen und bitte um Ihr Verständnis für diese Entscheidung. Bitte unterstützen Sie uns weiterhin in unserer Arbeit zum Schutz der Kultur und Traditionen der Native American Bevölkerung.

Wir werden in der Zukunft noch intensiver für die Wahrung der Interessen und zum Schutz der Native American Bevölkerung, deren Kultur und Traditionen eintreten. Ich danke hier ganz besonders für die Unterstützung und Hilfe der Stämme und der Ältesten in den USA, die gemeinsam mit uns hieran arbeiten.

Mit großem Respekt sehen wir der Zusammenarbeit mit unseren Freunden in Europa entgegen, die uns in unserem Anliegen unterstützen und uns in ihrem Land willkommen heißen. Alle, die sehen und verstehen, was der indianischen Kultur und den Traditionen angetan wird und die uns in unserer Arbeit unterstützen, möchte ich sagen „yes we can“, wenn wir gemeinsam daran arbeiten. Ohne Eure Hilfe und Unterstützung wird es für die Native American sehr schwierig bzw. fast unmöglich dieses Ziel zu verwirklichen.

Wir freuen uns auf ein Wiedersehen bei unserem 9. Native American Powwow im Mai 2010 in Mengen, welches in liebender Erinnerung an meine Tante Delaine Elliott Davis und an Carol Middleton für ihr Lebenswerk „Among the Creeks“ gewidmet ist. Danke nochmals für Euer Verständnis und Eure Freundschaft.

Cehecires,
Larry D. Nichols
Vorsitzender BBLM e.V.


 
INGEBORG , PLEASE , CAN YOU TRANSLATE ?? THANK YOU.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on September 25, 2009, 10:32:28 am
Here's a translation of the above quoted statement:




9th American Native Pow Wow Heilbronn, Sep 12/13, 2009, called off
posted: Aug 19, 2009

BLACKWATER BAND OF LOWER MUSKOKEES e.V. GERMANY
Chairperson: Larry D. Nichols
[...]
Homepage: www. muskokee.de

August 18, 2009

Dear Pow Wow guests and friends of Indian culture,

unfortunately we've got to announce that the 9th American Native [sic] Powwow on September 12 and 13, 2009, in the town of Horkheim will not take place. This decision has not been taken lightly and we ask for your understanding.

The Association Blackwater Band of Lower Muskokees e.V. [non-profit] Germany and I personally have been under an enormous pressure for the last months, due to a multitude of negative comments – and just because, since the association was first founded, we work for keeping up and for the protection of culture [sic] and the traditions of the Natives and reject any abuse resp. fight any abuse. In my position as a chairperson I believe that it is in the best interest of our members, families, and those persons who have supported us for years to call this Powwow off.

We also want to set a sign against abuse and sell-out of culture [sic] and traditions of Natives, which is happening especially recently in Germany resp other countries. Especially persons who practice sacred ceremonies of the Natives (e.g. Sun Dance) or support this by their participation, will actively take part in this abuse and we refuse to accept these persons as friend of the Indian culture [sic] or to let them participate in our activities. Inaccurate messages in various internet forums confirm us in distancing ourselves from such persons.

The 9th Native American Powwow will take place in May 2010 in the town of Mengen, Germany. I would like to thank all persons who planned to visit or participate in our powwow in Horkheim and ask for their understanding for this decision. Please do continue to support us in our work to protect culture [sic] and tradition of the Native American population.

We will intensify our work of preserving the interests and protect the Native American population and their culture and traditions. I express special thanks for the support and help of the tribes and Elders in the USA who work together with us in this.

With a great respect we anticipate cooperation with our friends in Europe who support us and welcome us to their country. To all who see and understand what is done to the Indian culture [sic] and the traditions and who support our work I would like to say: „Yes we can“, if we cooperate. Without your help and support, it will be difficult for Native American [sic], resp almost impossible, to realize this goal.

We look forward to meeting you again at our 9th Native American Powwow in Mengen in May 2010 which is dedicated in loving memory to my Aunt Delaine Elliott Davis and to Carol Middleton for her life-time work „Among the Creeks“. Thank you again for your understanding and your friendship.


Cehecires,
Larry D. Nichols
Chairperson BBLM e.V.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Ingeborg on September 25, 2009, 12:33:36 pm

A guest poster going by the nick of Sanishava later on in the thread shed some light on where some of the participants in powwows here may come from:

guest Sanishava, posted on Aug 28, 2009 19:45 hrs

„My heart is filled deep with mourning, since the powwow in Mengen, my soul yearns to dance and pray with my brothers and sisters in Heilbronn.
In the material world of white people, my Indian soul again yearns for a meeting and I am looking forward to Mengen. What a pity, but the great spirit which ***erfüllen us all will know, why this has happened this way. When time has come, we will all meet again.“

This is her website:
http://www.sanishava.de/8.html

A mix of Reiki, a language spoken by angels, NLP etc. Seminars and healings promoted, with the price tag saying „0 Euro“. The guest book has all of two entries...
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on September 26, 2009, 10:20:41 pm
Thanks for translating, Ingeborg. It's good to know that it was cancelled. Now, if we could put these wannabes out of business permanently. Guess it's one powwow at a time.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on October 07, 2009, 01:53:49 am
Ingeborg and I received mail from Larry Nichols yesterday.
We thought we'd share with y'all.



Quote
NAFPS spitting snake poison
From:  Larry Nichols (larry.nichols@hotmail.de)  
Sent: Mon 10/05/09 10:17 AM
To:  Bonnie Singleton (xxxxx); Ingeborg (xxxxx)

Ms. Bonnie Singleton,

it is obvious that you could use some professional help with the slander that you are doing at this NAFPS hate web site. Get a life nobody!

P.S. BTW, our 9th Native American powwow will be on the 22 & 23 of May 2010 in Mengen, Germany. So Ms Bonnie Singleton aka (bls926), you and your sidekicks can run your snake poison all you want too! You have nothing to say to me or my family. Also, German School Teacher Ms. Ingeborg, your translations are not very good at all for you being a School teacher, go ahead, show us how intelligent you are.



For the record: Your slander and other sick insulting commits with be recorded for future legal investigations.  



bls926

Offline

Posts: 399


Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2009, 04:20:41 PM »  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for translating, Ingeborg. It's good to know that it was cancelled. Now, if we could put these wannabes out of business permanently. Guess it's one powwow at a time.



Note: I've deleted our e-mail addresses.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on October 09, 2009, 09:39:16 pm
ach, wir wollen wieder gegen alle und jeden klagen--- na, wie schöööön....

oh man, hat da einer eigentlich keine anderen Hobbys?

Es ist schon komisch, das alle anderen blöd sind, die nicht der eigenen Meinung entsprechen....

kopfschüttelnd- ELke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on October 10, 2009, 03:03:58 pm
ach, wir wollen wieder gegen alle und jeden klagen--- na, wie schöööön....

oh man, hat da einer eigentlich keine anderen Hobbys?

Es ist schon komisch, das alle anderen blöd sind, die nicht der eigenen Meinung entsprechen....

kopfschüttelnd- ELke


Will someone please translate?
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on October 12, 2009, 12:00:03 pm
I wrote it in German slang...

He wants to frighten everybody- he is sending letters to all and anybody, who has a different view to the world. He says to all and everybody, that he will  take proceedings against them.

I ask if he has no other hobbies than this.

It seems that in his eyes, everybody than him is stupid....
How can sombody have so much hate in himself?
- This must be exhausting....

mhmmmm...

Best regards from ELke
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on October 12, 2009, 01:25:56 pm
I wrote it in German slang...

He wants to frighten everybody- he is sending letters to all and anybody, who has a different view to the world. He says to all and everybody, that he will  take proceedings against them.

I ask if he has no other hobbies than this.

It seems that in his eyes, everybody than him is stupid....
How can sombody have so much hate in himself?
- This must be exhausting....

mhmmmm...

Best regards from ELke

Thank you, Elke.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: Elke on October 12, 2009, 05:34:07 pm
oh not for this (just my English is not as good as it should be)

I think you should not be afraid of-

when I once had him at the telephone, I just wondered how many people he "would kik in her as" (as he said- it was the most heard term..booohr...mhmmm...)
And nobody beside him is NA ( also many well known NA living here)- I just shaked me head and wondered about....

How can somebody be so full of hate against the world!

Don't be afraid of...

Greetings from Elke

---The statement he wrote why canceling his powwow- everybody here wondered about. Some people, who wanted to go there, because they didn't want to go to Westerwald Powwow ( Jacki and Tdom bah) were much afraid of. These powwows should have been at the same weekend. But at the end- many of the dancers stayed at home- Also I think because some ugly thinks were brought up to the light- also here in this forum.

Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on October 13, 2009, 05:24:57 am
oh not for this (just my English is not as good as it should be)

I think you should not be afraid of-

when I once had him at the telephone, I just wondered how many people he "would kik in her as" (as he said- it was the most heard term..booohr...mhmmm...)
And nobody beside him is NA ( also many well known NA living here)- I just shaked me head and wondered about....

How can somebody be so full of hate against the world!

Don't be afraid of...

Greetings from Elke

---The statement he wrote why canceling his powwow- everybody here wondered about. Some people, who wanted to go there, because they didn't want to go to Westerwald Powwow ( Jacki and Tdom bah) were much afraid of. These powwows should have been at the same weekend. But at the end- many of the dancers stayed at home-Also I think because some ugly thinks were brought up to the light- also here in this forum.



Larry Nichols is not Native American. Yes, he is a Creek descendant, but he is not Indian. He is not enrolled in either of the legitimate Creek Nations and does not speak for the Creek people.

If the truth, the facts, we've presented here on this forum played even a small part in the decision to cancel his powwow, we've accomplished a good thing. As I said before, one powwow at a time. Maybe one day soon, Europeans will quit playing Indian.


I'm not afraid. I have truth on my side.
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on April 10, 2010, 08:20:16 pm
Larry Nichols has set up a new organization.


United Native American Council Association Europe eV
 
Chairman Larry D. Nichols
Holunderweg 7
74080 Heilbronn
Mobile: 01522-8925074
Landline: 07131-1359145
E-mail: @ larry.nichols hotmail.de
Homepage: www.muskokee.de


9th NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW
UNITED NATIVE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION COUNCIL EUROPE eV
22nd & 23 May 2010
in 88512 Mengen district of Sigmaringen, Germany
on the grounds of the festival amounts.
 
Patronage is the city amounts i.V. Mr. Mayor Bubeck.


http://www.muskokee.de/


This year's powwow is being organized by this new organization and Nichols as their chairman. The previous eight were organized by Nichols and the Blackwater Muskogee. The Blackwater are mentioned throughout the website, so I'm not sure what the motivation was. It is a little more difficult to find current information on the Blackwater Muskogee. That may have been his reason for setting up this new name.

There are pictures of his last 8 powwows on this site as well Mvskoke history. 
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: bls926 on May 19, 2010, 05:49:24 am
Nichols has cancelled two powwows in a row! September 2009 and May 2010.
We must be doing something right.

http://www.muskokee.de/

Original in German

Quote
DAS POWWOW IN MENGEN AM 22./23. Mai 2010 IST DEFINITIV ABGESAGT!!!
9. NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW

UNITED NATIVE AMERICAN COUNCIL ASSOCIATION EUROPE e.V.
22. & 23. Mai 2010
in 88512 Mengen Landkreis Sigmaringen, Germany
auf dem Gelände des Festplatzes Mengen.
 
Schirmherrschaft ist die Stadt Mengen i.V. Herr Bürgermeister Bubeck.
 
Update: 9.5.2010   


DAS POWWOW IN MENGEN AM 22./23. Mai 2010 IST DEFINITIV ABGESAGT!!!
 
Wie mittlerweile den Meisten bekannt sein dürfte, ist UNACAE ein neu gegründeter Verein, dessen Vorstand zum größten Teil aus Native American besteht. Dieser Verein hatte bisher nicht die Möglichkeit, sich persönlich vorzustellen, daher wurde in verschiedenen Foren darüber gemutmaßt. Dies führte offenbar zu Mißverständnissen bezüglich der Zielsetzung von UNACAE. Daraufhin haben viele Tänzer, Hobbyisten und andere Interessierte ihre Teilnahme am Mengener Powwow abgesagt. Am schlimmsten trifft uns die Erkrankung unseres 1. Vorsitzenden. Ohne ihn fehlt uns die Seele der gesamten Veranstaltung.
 
Dem neuen Verein geht es in erster Linie darum, interessierten Personen die indianischen Kulturen in Deutschland/Europa zugänglich zu machen bzw. für sie zu werben. Sofern erforderlich, ist der Verein auch bestrebt, im Einzelfall betroffene Native American vor Ausbeutung zu schützen, wie z.B. seinerzeit die vielen indianischen Tänzer die aus den USA nach Mannheim und Bielefeld kamen und für ihre Darbietungen nicht bezahlt wurden. Unseriöse Geschäftemacher sollen angeprangert werden.
 
Wie bereits in der Vergangenheit bei dem Vorgänger-Verein „Blackwater Band of Muskokee“ ist auch UNACAE und seine Mitglieder offen allen Personen gegenüber, die sich für indianische Kulturen interessieren und insbesondere auch für die Hobbyisten. Auch begrüßt der Verein deren Mitwirkung bei Veranstaltungen.
 
Verständlicherweise erwartet UNACAE allerdings auch, daß die Gäste und Mitwirkenden bei seinen Veranstaltungen den indianischen Kulturen den gebührenden Respekt entgegenbringen.
 
Uns ist bekannt, daß wir viele unserer Freunde, die gerne zu unserem Powwow gekommen wären, mit unserer Entscheidung enttäuschen. Dies bedauern wir im höchsten Maße. Wir hoffen aber, daß die, die weiter an uns und unsere Arbeit glauben, Verständnis zeigen werden.
Zu gegebener Zeit wird sich UNACAE in der Öffentlichkeit vorstellen und allen interessierten Rede und Antwort stehen.
 
Willie J. Summers
2. Vorsitzender
UNACAE e.V.



Google English Translation

Quote
POWWOW IN THE QUANTITIES AM 22-23. May 2010 DEFINITELY IS CANCELLED!
9th NATIVE AMERICAN POW-WOW

UNITED NATIVE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION COUNCIL EUROPE eV
22nd & 23 May 2010
88 512 volumes in the district of Sigmaringen, Germany
on the grounds of the festival amounts.
 
Patronage is the city amounts i.V. Mr. Mayor Bubeck.
 
Update: 05/09/2010   

 
POWWOW IN THE QUANTITIES AM 22-23. May 2010 DEFINITELY IS CANCELLED!
 
As is now the most will know, is UNACAE a newly established association, whose board mostly of Native American is. This association have not had the opportunity to introduce themselves in person, so was speculated in various forums. This obviously led to misunderstandings about the purpose of UNACAE. Subsequently, many dancers, hobbyists and other interested parties have canceled their participation in the Mengen powwow. At worst, the disease hits us our first Chairman. Without him, we lack the soul of the entire event.
 
The new club is primarily a matter of making people interested the Indian cultures in Germany / Europe accessible and to promote them. If necessary, the association also strives to protect the individual concerned Native American from exploitation, such as at the time the many Indian dancers who came from the U.S. to Mannheim and Bielefeld, and were not paid for their performances. Rogue traders are to be denounced.
 
As in the past with the previous club "Black Water Band of Muskokee" UNACAE and its members is also open to anyone over, interested in Native American cultures, and especially for the hobbyist. The club also welcomes their participation at events.
 
Understandably UNACAE expected but also that the guests and participants at its events felt for the Native American cultures, the proper respect.
 
We know that we many of our friends who would like to come to our powwow, disappoint with our decision. This we regret the highest degree. But we hope that those who continue to believe us and our work to show understanding.
In due time, UNACAE will present to the public and all interested questions.
 
Willie J. Summers
2nd Chairman
UNACAE e.V.



Nichols has some very distorted Creek history on his website. Claims that Tecumseh was a Shawnee/Creek Chief. Shawnee father and Creek mother. Has facts for the Trail of Tears wrong. According to Nichols, all five of the Nations traveled to Indian Territory in 1836.

His explanation of the holy tradition of the powwow screams wannabe. Powwow is not traditional to any of the Southeastern Nations. There is nothing holy or sacred about a powwow. If Nichols is going to pretend to be Mvskoke, he really should do a little more research.


Quote
All people who are willing to respect our Native American culture, traditions and themselves are welcome at our Powwow’s. A Powwow is something very holy to us, it is a family and social gathering where our prayers of worship are spoken for all people!   
During the Powwow’s back then friends and peace were made. An under-standing among ourselves for hope and goodwill in order to retain the old traditions of our Ancestors.
The center of the Powwow is the circle where the people dance. It has only one entrance and one exit, which is pointed towards the East.
Before entering the circle we purify ourselves with sage smoke. When we are dancing in the Holy grounds of the circle, our ancestors are there with us.
The Powwow is open to the public and everybody is welcome to visit us and to support our traditional Muskokee/Creek Powwow.
We are asking you to come with respect for the Native American culture and traditions and want to remind you that the aim of my people was always to make friends with the Europeans – despite the horrible past.
We are inviting our honorable Native American sisters and brothers from the Turtle Island to help us share our Native American way of life with the Europeans who are interested to learn more about it, and not to abuse or misuse it.
We are a proud nation with honor and dignity and we know that harmony isn’t automatic, but that you have to work hard for it.
A Muskokee/Creek never says goodbye, but „cehecires“ which means „see you later“ – Mvto.   
Larry D. Nichols
Muskokee/Creek


Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: RayoDeSol on July 01, 2010, 05:09:12 pm
For now their site is under construction, curios what will become of it  ;)
Title: Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
Post by: educatedindian on December 15, 2012, 12:48:54 am
I just received an attempt to send me a virus from Larry Nichols. I suppose it is possible that it could have come from a site that acquired his address, a hacked account, etc, something else that might make him not responsible.

If it was him I have no idea why this would come two years since we last discussed him. The BM site is still "under construction" all this time.