Author Topic: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash  (Read 47941 times)

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 12:26:04 am »
guess neither the carnes themselves, spaewife, nor any of their other friends in  here are going to touch this subject eh? ..

Offline 918ndnOkie

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2009, 07:32:17 pm »
***O~Si~Yo~***

lol he's not even Jewish! But us true Metis Cherokees know what the end will be like. My spiritual Advisor Cheryl "Blue Bear Medicine Woman" Hall told me that the world will begin again in 2012 lol

***Wa~Do***
aya ani'yv'-wiya.....nihi fvmbe vksi yoneg

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 08:48:08 pm »
??
in re-reading this thread along with the carnes/EMC thread .. and knowing that these two subjects go hand in hand since carnes "sundance" group was/is affiliated with many of the people in the atzlan "sundance" group and that all are also affiliated with the tayac "sundance" group .. perhaps a new thread should be started where people can discuss all these issues? .. .. including the affiliation with "treaty house/zoi" .. ?? .. idk .. all of these are intertwined together, connected, and trying to discuss this whole thing in so many different threads is difficult ..
opinions?

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 08:05:53 pm »
southern colorados "hippie, nuage sundance season" is nearing!!! .. these two "sundances" are less than 20 minutes from each other, held at the same time, and held in one of the most well known nuage hippie enclaves in colorado ..

both ben carnes and tomas shash are soon to hold their "sundance's" .. both of these "sundances" are held for non-ndns, mostly nuage hippies .. ok maybe once in a while they actually have a token ndn or two .. .. in bens case the people that attend are mostly white nuage hippies .. i will give tomas a bit of credit in that the people who attend his are mostly Hispanic and at least they are indigenous even though lost .. ..

point is that more and more people are being misled by these "chiefs", last year over 200 people were at tomas's "sundance", he even had a sign out on the highway inviting anyone but tourists to attend .. and both of these "chiefs" send out flyers .. is it appropriate to advertise a sundance??? .. tomas's group plasters the nearby towns with his flyers, ben is a bit more careful but not by much, flyers of his still go up around the towns as well .. ..

people are being misled and harmed .. and NONE of the questions about the validity of either of these "chiefs" and their "sundance's" has been answered .. ..


Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2009, 12:27:02 am »
southern colorados "hippie, nuage sundance season" is nearing!!! .. these two "sundances" are less than 20 minutes from each other, held at the same time, and held in one of the most well known nuage hippie enclaves in colorado ..

both ben carnes and tomas shash are soon to hold their "sundance's" .. both of these "sundances" are held for non-ndns, mostly nuage hippies .. ok maybe once in a while they actually have a token ndn or two .. .. in bens case the people that attend are mostly white nuage hippies .. i will give tomas a bit of credit in that the people who attend his are mostly Hispanic and at least they are indigenous even though lost .. ..

point is that more and more people are being misled by these "chiefs", last year over 200 people were at tomas's "sundance", he even had a sign out on the highway inviting anyone but tourists to attend .. and both of these "chiefs" send out flyers .. is it appropriate to advertise a sundance??? .. tomas's group plasters the nearby towns with his flyers, ben is a bit more careful but not by much, flyers of his still go up around the towns as well .. ..

people are being misled and harmed .. and NONE of the questions about the validity of either of these "chiefs" and their "sundance's" has been answered .. ..


Have you ever personally attended any Sundances at the Carnes residence to be making these statements?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2015, 05:19:04 pm »
Got a request about them, but much of the information is sketchy and they seem secretive. They are led by a man named Thomas or Tomas (Spanish pronunciation) and "Mama Cindy." The male leader has a daughter named Saba. They hold their own Sun Dance and claim to be Lakota, but train outsiders to be "shamans."

ETA: Merged threads, retitled to include Shash's name.

Offline a robinson

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2015, 09:50:11 pm »
Is that not the same group that had Sundance run by Jimmy Tenrivers?  The same person associated with William Scot Anderson Blue Otter. Also had a white man who taught Torah, Maggid ben Yoseif. Supposedly Apaches doing Lakota Ceremonies claiming to be Jews. Or something of that imagination.

Offline maggidbenyoseif

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2015, 01:48:27 pm »
'siyo,

I would like to clarify a few things.  The Lakota sundance was brought to southern Colorado by Titus Eaglefeather in the late 1990s.  Clusters of untribed Apache (who had intermarried with mountain people instead of going to reservations) began attending the dance and reuniting. Ben Ledeux, a relative of Crazy Horse brought his medicine bundle to start the purification lodge.   Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio is a Mimbreno who is also severely handicapped, a near paraplegic,  from a motorcycle accident followed by a car accident.  Yet he was one of the first dancers to be pierced.  All of his sons have since been sundancers.  So the dance at Iglesia de Aztlan IS based on a Lakota dance introduced by Titus.  Tomas Shash also has connections with Aztec who have influenced the dance as well, so that it is no longer completely recognizable as Lakota.  The lodges also sing Lakota songs, although Don Cryingeagle Tenorio and Jimmy Tenrivers have been introducing Apache lodge songs.

In your posts you refer to me as a "white man" who teaches Torah.  I do teach Torah but I am mixed Cherokee.  My g-grandmother was full blood and a wampum keeper and my ggggg grandfather was the right hand of Chief Ross who cared for his family during the chief's imprisonment with John Howard Payne.

NO ONE at Iglesia de Aztlan has any association with Scott Anderson (who goes by Blueotter).   He had interviewed Jimmy for one of his radio programs and invited Jimmy and I to visit Utah.  We met with the LDS historian after the president/prophet had a stroke and died while we were waiting downstairs in the lobby to visit with him and the Council of 12.  I led the delegation meeting with the LDS leadership because we were protesting that our sundancers were being proselytized by Mormon missionaries and wanted it to stop.  The historian arranged for us to receive $3,000 for the sundance as a donation after I explained that Native Americans were never severed from their covenant with Creator and therefore did not need "missonizing."  (See my research titled, "Native American spiritual sovereignty restored:  End-times 'balm of Gilead' heals land for all relations at www.torah-voice.org/Geronimoreturns.htm.  The $3,000 was not solicited and was used to purchase outhouses among other things for the dance.

There are problems at Iglesia de Aztlan, which I won't go into other than to say that profit is derived from the dance, which in my mind defiles it so I do not attend it.  Tomas and I had a big falling out over some of this.  Ben Carnes has already described it accurately enough.  But I would like to redeem the good name of Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio and my name, Maggid ben Yoseif, from the fraud, Anderson.  We were simply used by him until we learned better.  I had to ask him to leave my house in Walsenburg after his ex-wife kicked him out and he was homeless and I took him in, after he mimicked and insulted a grandmother and mooched pot from medical users.  Anderson moved to Central Band Cherokee in Tennessee and sabotaged my work with Chief Joe Sittingowl White.  I was his ambassador at large and was promoting an "intertribal treaty" based on a more humane and abbreviated version of the Cherokee Removals as a biblical solution to the Israeli-Palestinian quagmire.  He spread vicious rumors about me and my son.  That I was a child molester and my son was a meth addict.  I told Chief Joe -- who wanted me to work with Anderson -- that if I ever saw him again, I would happily go to jail for punching his lights out.  This man is evil through and through.  The entire untribed Apache community is sorry we ever involved ourselves with him.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2015, 11:55:32 pm »
Hello,
We always welcome more information that could shed some light. Hopefully you won't post just once and will answer some questions.

I included numbering below to make it clearer what I'm asking.

'siyo,

1. Clusters of untribed Apache (who had intermarried with mountain people instead of going to reservations) began attending the dance and reuniting.

2. In your posts you refer to me as a "white man" who teaches Torah.  I do teach Torah but I am mixed Cherokee. 

3. My g-grandmother was full blood and a wampum keeper and my ggggg grandfather was the right hand of Chief Ross who cared for his family during the chief's imprisonment with John Howard Payne.

4. NO ONE at Iglesia de Aztlan has any association with Scott Anderson (who goes by Blueotter)....But I would like to redeem the good name of Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio and my name, Maggid ben Yoseif, from the fraud, Anderson.  We were simply used by him until we learned better....

5. Anderson moved to Central Band Cherokee in Tennessee and sabotaged my work with Chief Joe Sittingowl White.  I was his ambassador at large and was promoting an "intertribal treaty" based on a more humane and abbreviated version of the Cherokee Removals as a biblical solution to the Israeli-Palestinian quagmire. 

1. That's quite a claim. What are you basing it on?

2. What is on your site is some of the most mangled versions of Native history, US history, and Biblical history, or history period I've ever seen. Do any Jewish organizations claim you, or trained you?

3. We have Cherokee members and others who do genealogy who would be interested in that claim, esp. since you claim a famous ancestor. What was originally your legal name? The names of those alleged ancestors?

4. That would not surprise us, given Anderson's long history of abuse and falsehoods. We appreciate your accounts, and I'm glad you got away from him and ended any association.

5. The "Central Band" is a fairly delusional group, almost entirely whites with imagined or false claims of Cherokee ancestry. We have a thread on them that may interest you. They also make incredibly ludicrous claims that Jews are Cherokee and vice versa, notions without the tiniest bit of proof and in contradiction of all of Cherokee history and culture. You understand that hearing you were their "ambassador" undercuts your credibility.

Epiphany

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2015, 03:25:30 pm »
Maggid ben Yosief's original birth name is Dell Griffin http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/6-23-03/discussion.cgi.97.html

His father apparently is Dell Griffin Sr. http://www.britam.org/dell.html

His own bio here http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbio.htm He claims a Griffin ancestor was Cherokee - his gr gr gr gr grandfather William Griffin.

I believe this is his father's obituary here  http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20061014/OBITUARIES/610140306


Epiphany

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2015, 03:46:35 pm »
He also claims Cherokee on his mother's side, through his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland http://www.torah-voice.org/Pedigree.htm

Epiphany

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 07:23:39 pm »
He also claims Cherokee on his mother's side, through his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland http://www.torah-voice.org/Pedigree.htm

Correction: Maude Etta Westmoreland is his paternal grandmother.

His genealogy is documented online http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=21832135 - I'll look over census records tomorrow.

Epiphany

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2015, 06:13:20 pm »
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif

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Quote
My dear mother z''l, Sybil bat Sadie, Cherokee beauty.

http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm

His mother is indeed Sybil of Sadie, both women are listed white in census.

Quote
Today, Maggid ben Yoseif, mixed Cherokee and a great-great-great-great grandson of William Griffin, a member of the Cherokee National Council at Red Clay, TN., before the 1830s Removal,

His ancestor William Griffin 1806 - 1872 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom - William's son James Washington Griffin was in the Confederate Army, listed white in all census, photo of him on this memorial: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989 William Griffin is a relatively common name, so we can't assume this is the same man.

Other researchers on ancestry.com working on these various families, do not have posted any records of Cherokee heritage.

I don't think MbY has yet had a professional do his genealogy.  He needs to have his genealogy done correctly, also he needs to be clear about what communities and nations claim him.


Offline Diana

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2015, 03:07:21 am »
I'm a little confused....I read this guys bio and did he convert to Judaism?? Or just studied it in theology classes and took it upon himself to teach the Torah? And I also looked him up on Ancestry.com and found the same family genealogy as you did Piff. From what I can see the Griffin name dead ends at 1801 with Oren Griffin from Brooklyn New York. Hardly Cherokee territory Lol. I also looked up his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland and her line goes all the way back to 1740, very impressive, but no Cherokee. I think this Dell Griffin person deserves his own thread. He certainly doesn't pass the smell test


https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif

---

Quote
My dear mother z''l, Sybil bat Sadie, Cherokee beauty.

http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm

His mother is indeed Sybil of Sadie, both women are listed white in census.

Quote
Today, Maggid ben Yoseif, mixed Cherokee and a great-great-great-great grandson of William Griffin, a member of the Cherokee National Council at Red Clay, TN., before the 1830s Removal,

His ancestor William Griffin 1806 - 1872 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom - William's son James Washington Griffin was in the Confederate Army, listed white in all census, photo of him on this memorial: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989 William Griffin is a relatively common name, so we can't assume this is the same man.

Other researchers on ancestry.com working on these various families, do not have posted any records of Cherokee heritage.

I don't think MbY has yet had a professional do his genealogy.  He needs to have his genealogy done correctly, also he needs to be clear about what communities and nations claim him.

Offline Clanfather

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Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2016, 01:07:54 pm »
I am interested In any folks who have personal knowledge or contact with this Atzlan group.
Thank you