NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Keely on July 12, 2009, 11:33:05 pm

Title: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 12, 2009, 11:33:05 pm
Warning to Tecumseh Brown Eagle/Abdul Muhammed/James Oliver Johnson 111

----------

From: Chief WALTER T. RENZ

To Whom it comes to their Door,

The person below Mr. Johnson /TBE is not Native American. He uses 7 different Names. And is using bad behaviour as well towards the real Native Americans. We searched for any Native blood and could not find any in his decent. Its time for him to stop all contact with any Government or Tribal Nation using Native name of any kind. We have given the notes to the F.B.I. on him as well. His terrorism is to stop today. It bothers the Elder Chiefs in Canada to no end as well.
Thank you for support.
Chief Walter T. Renz/Graycloud Longtail

-------------------
Mr. Johnson III,
 
After looking over all the files and records we have and have gotten from the researchers that work with us. I have to tell you that Watts does not match your Ancestry. Or the Johnson's you were claiming.. No Native Blood what so ever has been determined by the Tribal Nations on your family history.
 
Your continuous yelling at the Elders and Chiefs , is not one that a real Erie Chief would do. They have said for you to stop calling them and stay away. They have no use for you.
 
We have spoken to you on the Erie name you are using to benefit your pocket. Close the web page it will not benefit you no more.
 
The Shawnee name you claim is not given to you in a traditional way. The Shawnee will be getting this note as well. With your copying of the Tecumseh words on the web page you have. This is a slap in the face of the real Tecumseh with your behaviour.
 
Do not contact us or bother us with your ideas or Casino. We do not want it or need it. Also do not bother the Chiefs in Canada as well. Remove all the contacts you have with the Chiefs and Elders as well. It is so ordered.
 
This is the last notes that you will receive from us. Any more contact from you will not be looked on as a good thing.
 
So Ordered this 8th day the of April 2009 of the above.
Chief Walter Renz/Graycloud Longtail



I realize this is a old post and a old issue, but why would anyone quote about a wannabe by a wannabe? Chief Walter Renz/Graycloud Longtail? Helllloooo isnt that screaming wannabe?  His "tribe" is named "morning star shawnee" and to make myself perfectly clear, this IDIOT has claimed to be of the Black Bob band of Shawnees, and is using the Longtail name... My family is of the Black Bob band, and my grandmothers maiden name is Longtail, who the hell does this sideshow freak think he is?

If anyone knows this fraud, let him know I am looking for him, all 250 pounds of his wannabeness...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 14, 2009, 09:58:21 pm

Others are looking for him and wondering????
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 14, 2009, 10:16:19 pm

Others are looking for him and wondering????

If anyone knows where he is at online... please notify me... we will confront him on his lies about being related to us...

Here is where he has posted some of his messages and I have confronted him:

http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/978.html

This guy is one of the biggest frauds I have come across online...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 15, 2009, 03:39:04 am
I realize this topic was moved to "research needed" but I got the goods on this fake...

This Walter Renz has been online claiming that he is "Chief Gray Cloud Longtail" and that he is from the Black Bob Band of Shawnees, that his ancestor is Henry Longtail and that Henry was a "blood chief" who was told by the US government not to go to Oklahoma but to go and make a "new tribe" and so he went to Ohio and made a tribe called "Morning Star Shawnee"  he also claims the US government changed the Longtail name to Wallen....

I am so freaking angry with this flake it is not funny...

Here are the facts of this...

My great grandmother is Anna Longtail, her brother was Abraham Longtail aka Jake, now Jake is the father of Henry... and I know for a fact none of them are "cheifs" and there aint no such thing as a "blood chief" futher, they lived in Oklahoma and not in Ohio... this side show freak Renz has made up dates for their births and their deaths... I know where Jake and Henry are buried, and it aint in Ohio..

How far are these fakes willing to go? They are trying to steal our ancestors names and put funky stories with it to try to make it look legit.

Everyone should do checks on their ancestors names, just google them.. and see if your family is under attack as well..

These frauds will stop at nothing, they are disrespecting our ancestors, and they dont give a dayum about it...

These kind of people need some serious professional help...
 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on July 15, 2009, 06:52:13 pm
Its interesting how frauds steal identities and many get away with it. You know your family history and I read your response to Renz. If identity theft is a crime, why isn't it a crime to steal a family history. We saw what TBE did and apparently Renz did the same thing. What right does he have to call TBE a fraud when he is no different, I think he's pissed because he's been out frauded by TBE and wants to get his own casino license...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 15, 2009, 10:10:17 pm
I wish he would get on one of these message boards so I can cyber slap the crap outta him... I would love for him to try and debate me about my family! He wont even answer my emails..

It should be a crime to steal ancestos.. I can understand when people do research that they can get their family information wrong, but these people are deliberatly lying and changing facts..

People should start doing google on their own family names, specially the old names... and if a person has posted in a genealogy message board it will hit and you can see what is written without having to be a member of their boards...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 15, 2009, 11:27:41 pm
I wish he would get on one of these message boards so I can cyber slap the crap outta him... I would love for him to try and debate me about my family! He wont even answer my emails..

It should be a crime to steal ancestos.. I can understand when people do research that they can get their family information wrong, but these people are deliberatly lying and changing facts..

People should start doing google on their own family names, specially the old names... and if a person has posted in a genealogy message board it will hit and you can see what is written without having to be a member of their boards...



This is what our research has yielded about this topic:


   He claims to be the Chaliawa ( Cat) Nation). Which we did a web search before and this is what we found.

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/3593969
Black Bob (person)
Black Bob/Wa-wah-che-pa-e-hai is the name of a Native American
Native Americans in the United States

Native Americans in the United States are the Indigenous peoples of the Americas from the regions of North America now encompassed by the continental United States United States, including parts of Alaska and the island state of Hawaii....
 Chief
Chief

Chief may refer to:...
. He was the chief of a Shawnee
Shawnee

The Shawnee, Shaawanwaki, Shaawanooki and Shaawanowi lenaweeki, are a people native to North America. They originally inhabited the areas of Ohio, Virginia, West Virginia, Western Maryland, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania....
 band, originally a part of the Hatha­wekela division of the Shawnee. Known as the Chaliawa in French term Chalaqua. About the year 1826 they separated from their kindred, then living in eastern Missouri
Missouri

Missouri is a U.S. state in the Midwestern United States of the United States bordered by Iowa, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska....
 on land granted to them about 1793 by Baron Carondelet, near Cape Girardeau
Cape Girardeau, Missouri

Cape Girardeau is a city located in Cape Girardeau County, Missouri and Scott County, Missouri counties in Southeast Missouri in the United States....
, then in Spanish
Spain

Spain or the Kingdom of Spain , is a country located in Southern Europe on the Iberian Peninsula.The Spanish constitution does not establish any official denomination of the country, even though Espa?a , Estado espa?ol and Naci?n espa?ola are used interchangeably....
 territory, and removed to Kansas
Kansas

The State of Kansas is a Midwestern U.S. state in the Central United States of the United States of America, an area often referred to as the United States "Heartland"....
, where, by treaty with their chief, Black Bob, in 1854, they were given rights on the Shawnee reservation in that state. Under Black Bob's leadership they refused to remove with the rest of the tribe to Indian Territory
Indian Territory

The Indian Territory, also known as The Indian Country, The Indian territory or the Indian territories, was land set aside within the United States for the use of Native Americans in the United States....
 in 1808, but are now incorporated with them, either in the Cherokee Nation or with the Absentee Shawnee or in Ohio
Ohio

Ohio is a Midwestern United States U.S. state of the United States. As part of the Great Lakes region , Ohio has long been a cultural and geographical crossroads in North America....
 with Morning Star Shawnee Nation/Chaliawa who are documented in 2007 as Blood Decent. (From the Access Genealogy website And the Ancestry Book of the Family of Decent.)

http://500nations.com/Ohio_Tribes.asp

Chaliawa (Cat Nation)
Chief Walter T. Renz
1121 Clayberg Rd. Lot89
Greenwich, Ohio 44837
Phone 419-895-0088

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:_3zUCiu9fKcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Bob_(person)+Chaliawa+Nation&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Black Bob/Wa-wah-che-pa-e-hai is the name of a Native American Shawnee Chief. His band was originally a part of the Hatha­wekela division of the Shawnee. It was also known as the Chaliawa (in French Chalaqua). About the year 1826 they separated from their kindred, then living in eastern Missouri on land granted to them about 1793 by Baron Carondelet, near Cape Girardeau. It was then controlled by Spain.

They removed to the area of Kansas, where by treaty with their chief, Black Bob in 1854, the United States gave them rights to land on the Shawnee reservation in that state. Under Black Bob's leadership, in 1808 they had refused to remove with the rest of the tribe to Indian Territory.

In 1856 they were moved to Oklahoma Indian Territory, before the outbreak of conflicts over slavery in Kansas. In 1858 the Federal Government removed their Federal recognition away.

The Chaliawa Nation in Ohio are families who chose to live in the traditional way.


http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: ny1 on July 16, 2009, 01:17:29 am
I checked that ohio address out.....it's a trailer park...if that gives you any sort of lead or ideas about Renz.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 16, 2009, 01:22:31 am
I realize this topic was moved to "research needed" but I got the goods on this fake...

This Walter Renz has been online claiming that he is "Chief Gray Cloud Longtail" and that he is from the Black Bob Band of Shawnees, that his ancestor is Henry Longtail and that Henry was a "blood chief" who was told by the US government not to go to Oklahoma but to go and make a "new tribe" and so he went to Ohio and made a tribe called "Morning Star Shawnee"  he also claims the US government changed the Longtail name to Wallen....

I am so freaking angry with this flake it is not funny...

Here are the facts of this...

My great grandmother is Anna Longtail, her brother was Abraham Longtail aka Jake, now Jake is the father of Henry... and I know for a fact none of them are "cheifs" and there aint no such thing as a "blood chief" futher, they lived in Oklahoma and not in Ohio... this side show freak Renz has made up dates for their births and their deaths... I know where Jake and Henry are buried, and it aint in Ohio..

How far are these fakes willing to go? They are trying to steal our ancestors names and put funky stories with it to try to make it look legit.

Everyone should do checks on their ancestors names, just google them.. and see if your family is under attack as well..

These frauds will stop at nothing, they are disrespecting our ancestors, and they dont give a dayum about it...

These kind of people need some serious professional help...
 

More research on who the original "Longtails" are and since you are a "Longtail", you are originally Erie and were adopted into the Seneca Nation, therefore making the Longtails, Seneca according to our Great Law. :

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:lSh1pDggOuAJ:www.dickshovel.com/erie.html+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie is a short form of the Iroquian word "Erielhonan" meaning literally "long tail"" and referring to the panther (cougar or mountain lion). Hence their French name was Nation du Chat (cat nation). Their other Iroquoian names - Awenrehronon and Rhilerrhonon (Rhierrhonon) - carry the same meaning, although the Huron muddied the situation by using Yenresh (panther people) for both the Erie and Neutrals. Other names which seem to have been used for the Erie were: Atirhagenret, Chat (French), Gaquagaono, Kahqua (Kahkwa) (Seneca), Rhagenratka, and Black Mingua (Dutch).

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Oyf5zu6a8usJ:arbpoet.vox.com/library/post/the-erie-indians.html+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

The French called the Erie Indians “The Nation of Cat” because of the cat pelts the Erie Indians used to make blankets. The Erie Indians belonged to the Huron Iroquois branch. The name “Erie” is derived from the word Erielhonan, a word that means, “ long tail” in the language of the Iroquois.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:4bO34HTyj34J:www.answers.com/topic/erie-indigenous-people-of-north-america+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie (?r'?) , indigenous people of North America of the Iroquoian branch of the Hokan-Siouan linguistic stock (see Native American languages). In the Iroquoian language the word erie means “long tail” (i.e., cat), and, therefore, the Erie were referred to as the Cat Nation. In the 17th cent. they inhabited the region E and SE of Lake Erie in the present states of New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. They then numbered some 14,000. Although they were sedentary farmers of the Eastern Woodlands area, they exhibited some Southeastern cultural traits, such as the use of poisoned arrows and the building of palisaded villages. They were traditional enemies of the Iroquois Confederacy, and in 1656, after one of the most relentless and destructive Indian wars, the Erie were almost exterminated by the Iroquois. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved by the confederacy.

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/erie_indigenous_people_of_north_america.jsp


ERIE, Indigenous People of North America
   

?r??, indigenous people of North America of the Iroquoian branch of the Hokan-Siouan linguistic stock (see Native American languages). In the Iroquoian language the word erie means "long tail" (i.e., cat), and, therefore, the Erie were referred to as the Cat Nation. In the 17th cent. they inhabited the region E and SE of Lake Erie in the present states of New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. They then numbered some 14,000. Although they were sedentary farmers of the Eastern Woodlands area, they exhibited some Southeastern cultural traits, such as the use of poisoned arrows and the building of palisaded villages. They were traditional enemies of the Iroquois Confederacy, and in 1656, after one of the most relentless and destructive Indian wars, the Erie were almost exterminated by the Iroquois. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved by the confederacy.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:XMdWJiOBkx4J:www.austinburg.com/what_is_in_a_name.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie-  After the Erie Indians, from the word meaning "Long Tail", referring to the wildcat.  Known as the Cat Nation.


http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ECAli3SoqrYJ:www.mpaulkeeslerbooks.com/Chap2Name.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie as in Mountain Lion
Erie as in Erie Canal, Erie Street and Erie Boulevard were named after Lake Erie. Lake Erie was named after the Indian people who lived along the lake's southern shore---an area  where mountain lions were abundant. The lions were called Erielhonan, meaning "long tail" and the Indians living there were called Erie or Cat Nation.  In 1600 some 14,000 Eries lived in villages between what is now Buffalo, NY and Sandusky, Ohio. In 1656 they were almost exterminated by the Iroquois League. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved.


http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Z7zicidAB-IJ:en.allexperts.com/e/e/er/erie_(tribe).htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie (tribe)
The Erie (also Erielhonan, Eriez, Nation du Chat) were a prehistoric group of Native Americans, related to the Iroquois, who lived from western New York to northern Ohio on the south shore of Lake Erie. They were ultimately destroyed by the Iroquois, who adopted some of the survivors into their own group, these being primarily absorbed into the Senecas.

The names "Erie" and "Eriez" are shortenings of "Erielhonan," meaning "long tail." The Erielhonan were also called the "Cat" or the "Racoon" people. They lived in multi-family long houses in villages enclosed in palisades and grew the "Three Sisters"â€"corn, beans, and squashâ€"during the warm season. In the winter tribal members lived off the stored crops and animals taken in hunts.
Fur trade and Beaver Wars
In the competition in the fur trade, the Erie alienated the surrounding tribes by encroaching on their territories. They also angered their eastern neighbors, the League of the Iroquois, by accepting refugees from Huron villages that had been destroyed by the Iroquois. Though rumored to use poison tipped arrows, the Erie were disadvantaged in armed conflict by having few firearms (If the Erie used poison on their arrows, it would make them the only tribe in North America to do so). Beginning in the mid-1650s, the Erie and other tribes were in battle with their enemies, the Iroquois. As a result of this war, known as the Beaver Wars, the tribe no longer existed as a unit, but dispersed groups survived a few more decades before being absorbed into the Iroquois. It is said that some Erie fled to the Carolinas. Members of other tribes also claimed later to be descended from refugees of this defunct culture. There are also members of the Seneca people in Oklahoma who still claim to be descended from the Erie nation.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:29VvJu9hDagJ:www.northallegheny.org/schools/mck/erie_indians.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie is a short form of the Iroquian word "Erielhonan" meaning literally "long tail"" and referring to the panther (cougar or mountain lion). The Eries were also known also as the "cat" or "raccoon" The French name for them  was Nation du Chat (cat nation).

The End of the Erie

By 1654 the Eries had also become a target of Iroquois raids, principally from the Seneca towns at the western end of the Five Nations territory. The Eries's location astride the Lake Erie plain put them in a position to block Iroquois efforts to reach rich hunting grounds in the Ohio Valley and thus made them an object of concerted Iroquois attack. Weakened by epidemics, including smallpox, in 1637 and again in 1639-41, and lacking the firearms acquired by the Iroquois from Dutch traders, the Eries succumbed to a series of onslaughts culminating in their dispersal in 1657.

Some Eries may have fled to the Carolina lowlands and formed the group known in the 1670s as Westos. One band is known to have remained in the Ohio Valley until 1680, when it finally surrendered to the Senecas. This band and other Erie captives were adopted by the Iroquois, and their descendants were among those Senecas who began to resettle in the upper Ohio Valley  in the 1700’s.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 16, 2009, 04:58:40 am
I realize this topic was moved to "research needed" but I got the goods on this fake...

This Walter Renz has been online claiming that he is "Chief Gray Cloud Longtail" and that he is from the Black Bob Band of Shawnees, that his ancestor is Henry Longtail and that Henry was a "blood chief" who was told by the US government not to go to Oklahoma but to go and make a "new tribe" and so he went to Ohio and made a tribe called "Morning Star Shawnee"  he also claims the US government changed the Longtail name to Wallen....

I am so freaking angry with this flake it is not funny...

Here are the facts of this...

My great grandmother is Anna Longtail, her brother was Abraham Longtail aka Jake, now Jake is the father of Henry... and I know for a fact none of them are "cheifs" and there aint no such thing as a "blood chief" futher, they lived in Oklahoma and not in Ohio... this side show freak Renz has made up dates for their births and their deaths... I know where Jake and Henry are buried, and it aint in Ohio..

How far are these fakes willing to go? They are trying to steal our ancestors names and put funky stories with it to try to make it look legit.

Everyone should do checks on their ancestors names, just google them.. and see if your family is under attack as well..

These frauds will stop at nothing, they are disrespecting our ancestors, and they dont give a dayum about it...

These kind of people need some serious professional help...
 

More research on who the original "Longtails" are and since you are a "Longtail", you are originally Erie and were adopted into the Seneca Nation, therefore making the Longtails, Seneca according to our Great Law. :

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:lSh1pDggOuAJ:www.dickshovel.com/erie.html+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie is a short form of the Iroquian word "Erielhonan" meaning literally "long tail"" and referring to the panther (cougar or mountain lion). Hence their French name was Nation du Chat (cat nation). Their other Iroquoian names - Awenrehronon and Rhilerrhonon (Rhierrhonon) - carry the same meaning, although the Huron muddied the situation by using Yenresh (panther people) for both the Erie and Neutrals. Other names which seem to have been used for the Erie were: Atirhagenret, Chat (French), Gaquagaono, Kahqua (Kahkwa) (Seneca), Rhagenratka, and Black Mingua (Dutch).

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Oyf5zu6a8usJ:arbpoet.vox.com/library/post/the-erie-indians.html+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

The French called the Erie Indians “The Nation of Cat” because of the cat pelts the Erie Indians used to make blankets. The Erie Indians belonged to the Huron Iroquois branch. The name “Erie” is derived from the word Erielhonan, a word that means, “ long tail” in the language of the Iroquois.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:4bO34HTyj34J:www.answers.com/topic/erie-indigenous-people-of-north-america+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie (?r'?) , indigenous people of North America of the Iroquoian branch of the Hokan-Siouan linguistic stock (see Native American languages). In the Iroquoian language the word erie means “long tail” (i.e., cat), and, therefore, the Erie were referred to as the Cat Nation. In the 17th cent. they inhabited the region E and SE of Lake Erie in the present states of New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. They then numbered some 14,000. Although they were sedentary farmers of the Eastern Woodlands area, they exhibited some Southeastern cultural traits, such as the use of poisoned arrows and the building of palisaded villages. They were traditional enemies of the Iroquois Confederacy, and in 1656, after one of the most relentless and destructive Indian wars, the Erie were almost exterminated by the Iroquois. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved by the confederacy.

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/erie_indigenous_people_of_north_america.jsp


ERIE, Indigenous People of North America
   

?r??, indigenous people of North America of the Iroquoian branch of the Hokan-Siouan linguistic stock (see Native American languages). In the Iroquoian language the word erie means "long tail" (i.e., cat), and, therefore, the Erie were referred to as the Cat Nation. In the 17th cent. they inhabited the region E and SE of Lake Erie in the present states of New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. They then numbered some 14,000. Although they were sedentary farmers of the Eastern Woodlands area, they exhibited some Southeastern cultural traits, such as the use of poisoned arrows and the building of palisaded villages. They were traditional enemies of the Iroquois Confederacy, and in 1656, after one of the most relentless and destructive Indian wars, the Erie were almost exterminated by the Iroquois. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved by the confederacy.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:XMdWJiOBkx4J:www.austinburg.com/what_is_in_a_name.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie-  After the Erie Indians, from the word meaning "Long Tail", referring to the wildcat.  Known as the Cat Nation.


http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ECAli3SoqrYJ:www.mpaulkeeslerbooks.com/Chap2Name.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie as in Mountain Lion
Erie as in Erie Canal, Erie Street and Erie Boulevard were named after Lake Erie. Lake Erie was named after the Indian people who lived along the lake's southern shore---an area  where mountain lions were abundant. The lions were called Erielhonan, meaning "long tail" and the Indians living there were called Erie or Cat Nation.  In 1600 some 14,000 Eries lived in villages between what is now Buffalo, NY and Sandusky, Ohio. In 1656 they were almost exterminated by the Iroquois League. The surviving captives were either adopted or enslaved.


http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Z7zicidAB-IJ:en.allexperts.com/e/e/er/erie_(tribe).htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie (tribe)
The Erie (also Erielhonan, Eriez, Nation du Chat) were a prehistoric group of Native Americans, related to the Iroquois, who lived from western New York to northern Ohio on the south shore of Lake Erie. They were ultimately destroyed by the Iroquois, who adopted some of the survivors into their own group, these being primarily absorbed into the Senecas.

The names "Erie" and "Eriez" are shortenings of "Erielhonan," meaning "long tail." The Erielhonan were also called the "Cat" or the "Racoon" people. They lived in multi-family long houses in villages enclosed in palisades and grew the "Three Sisters"â€"corn, beans, and squashâ€"during the warm season. In the winter tribal members lived off the stored crops and animals taken in hunts.
Fur trade and Beaver Wars
In the competition in the fur trade, the Erie alienated the surrounding tribes by encroaching on their territories. They also angered their eastern neighbors, the League of the Iroquois, by accepting refugees from Huron villages that had been destroyed by the Iroquois. Though rumored to use poison tipped arrows, the Erie were disadvantaged in armed conflict by having few firearms (If the Erie used poison on their arrows, it would make them the only tribe in North America to do so). Beginning in the mid-1650s, the Erie and other tribes were in battle with their enemies, the Iroquois. As a result of this war, known as the Beaver Wars, the tribe no longer existed as a unit, but dispersed groups survived a few more decades before being absorbed into the Iroquois. It is said that some Erie fled to the Carolinas. Members of other tribes also claimed later to be descended from refugees of this defunct culture. There are also members of the Seneca people in Oklahoma who still claim to be descended from the Erie nation.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:29VvJu9hDagJ:www.northallegheny.org/schools/mck/erie_indians.htm+Longtail+Erie+indian&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Erie is a short form of the Iroquian word "Erielhonan" meaning literally "long tail"" and referring to the panther (cougar or mountain lion). The Eries were also known also as the "cat" or "raccoon" The French name for them  was Nation du Chat (cat nation).

The End of the Erie

By 1654 the Eries had also become a target of Iroquois raids, principally from the Seneca towns at the western end of the Five Nations territory. The Eries's location astride the Lake Erie plain put them in a position to block Iroquois efforts to reach rich hunting grounds in the Ohio Valley and thus made them an object of concerted Iroquois attack. Weakened by epidemics, including smallpox, in 1637 and again in 1639-41, and lacking the firearms acquired by the Iroquois from Dutch traders, the Eries succumbed to a series of onslaughts culminating in their dispersal in 1657.

Some Eries may have fled to the Carolina lowlands and formed the group known in the 1670s as Westos. One band is known to have remained in the Ohio Valley until 1680, when it finally surrendered to the Senecas. This band and other Erie captives were adopted by the Iroquois, and their descendants were among those Senecas who began to resettle in the upper Ohio Valley  in the 1700’s.



Nikki,

The world wide web is not the expert on all things Indian, nor is it a expert on my people or my family. There are people with the surname of Longtail families in the following tribes: Ho-Chunk, Omaha, and Crow, this information comes from the US Indian Census 1855 to 1925... and I am not of any of the tribes mentioned.

Each tribe has their own creation stories.. and each family has their own stories of how they got their name.

One of the biggest problems there is when one uses too much of the internet for their resourse is that the information one gets is only as reliable as the person who wrote it... There are hundreds of books out there, many online, and who wrote those books? The white man... and many non truths are involved in those books..

One great non truth is about Bluejacket.. who was reported for many years to be a white man named Marmaduke Van Swearingen, captive of the Shawnee...  until DNA testing was done... and it proved that Marmaduke Swearingen was never Bluejacket... but yet today, you can find a lot of reference that Bluejacket was this white guy named Marmaduke..

Dont rely on web searches... ask.. because my family was never Seneca, Erie or anything other than what we are, we are Shawnee...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 16, 2009, 05:03:56 am
I checked that ohio address out.....it's a trailer park...if that gives you any sort of lead or ideas about Renz.

There are some nice trailer parks where we live... but it is my understanding that where he lives is [deleted]...



[Al's note: You may not have intended it to be so, but your message had a racist slur.]
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 16, 2009, 11:02:04 am
"Dont rely on web searches... ask.. because my family was never Seneca, Erie or anything other than what we are, we are Shawnee..."

Keely,

I don't doubt you are Shawnee, although it is known fact by family histories, that many of us are a mixture of other Indigenous nations, and can never truthfully say we are purely of just one nation. That would be an insult to our ancestors and of who they are. It is a known fact that the Shawnee as other nations, did inter-marry with other nations, in your case the original Longtails were Erie who were adopted into the Seneca, whom also intermarried with the Shawnee. There was at one time a reserve in Ohio, in the 1800's called the Mixed Band Seneca-Shawnee of Lewiston. They at the time of removal, joined with the Senecas of Sandusky, when they went to Oklahoma, and are now known as the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma.
That is the facts and not based upon some white man's history as you suggest. So you were not always along with many of us what you are identifying yourself as today. As many people and nations were brought, into our Confederacy, the Six Nations Confederacy, and were of another nation before. I know our traditional laws well and know how they work.


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 17, 2009, 05:28:03 am
Nikki,

I know tribes inter-married... but my Longtails are not Seneca. This insistance that one of our family names is Seneca is starting to insult my family who is reading here...
One other surname in my family is PANTHER, are you going to tell me what tribe that comes from? Nearly every tribe has that surname or something much like it.. but it will never mean everyone with that surname is related.
Now, surnames are a common thing, but two hundred years ago, Indians didnt have these surnames, they didnt have middle names either, surnames is a whiteman thing... when some Indians got surnames, they would use a parent/grandparent name, or pick one from someone they knew... My tribe did not have surnames as a common place until the 1850's. Even in Kansas census records of the Shawnee, some still go by only one name.
Eastern tribes had surnames long before the tribes futher west... We have Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, they didnt have last names... those were their names.
The name LONGTAIL did not become a surname in my family until right before the Civil War, and that was long after what you write on the Seneca's.
Please dont argue with me about this subject.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 17, 2009, 10:34:24 am
Nikki,

I know tribes inter-married... but my Longtails are not Seneca. This insistance that one of our family names is Seneca is starting to insult my family who is reading here...
One other surname in my family is PANTHER, are you going to tell me what tribe that comes from? Nearly every tribe has that surname or something much like it.. but it will never mean everyone with that surname is related.
Now, surnames are a common thing, but two hundred years ago, Indians didnt have these surnames, they didnt have middle names either, surnames is a whiteman thing... when some Indians got surnames, they would use a parent/grandparent name, or pick one from someone they knew... My tribe did not have surnames as a common place until the 1850's. Even in Kansas census records of the Shawnee, some still go by only one name.
Eastern tribes had surnames long before the tribes futher west... We have Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, they didnt have last names... those were their names.
The name LONGTAIL did not become a surname in my family until right before the Civil War, and that was long after what you write on the Seneca's.
Please dont argue with me about this subject.


I do believe that Walter Renz has since responded to your email. Also I do want to remind, that since you are Shawnee, you are a cousin under the protection of the Confederacy, and have no voice on your own. As Walter Renz is also under the protection of the Confederacy and any further attacks by you will be viewed as an attack on the entire Six Nations Confederacy. When Walter came to us , he came here to help protect sacred sites, which no one can fault him for. He also has no interest in Casinos or Casino money at what has been suggested here. I would suggest that this entire post on Walter Renz, be removed from this group and disabled. And Keely whatever words you have to say to Walter, since you do have his email, telephone, and address, that you carry that on with him directly and not on any message board and any of your relatives you have felt this same way towards Walter.
And because Walter is also living in the trailer park he is, is no indication of what kind of a human being he is. Get real!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendianga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 17, 2009, 10:37:24 am
From: renzsilver@hotmail.com
To: kdenning@cox.net
Subject: My decent of Blood
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:48:05 -0400


Keely,
 
I am sorry hear you feel that I am not who I say I am.
Have you spoken with Darrel Larney of the Absentee Shawnee. Or with Andrew Warrior of the Absentee.
I asked personally not to be given a card by the Absentee Tribe. But to help the people if they need me. I am very real and wish you well on your path of peace.
 
If you check with the Federal Government records. You would find that Longtail name is blood decent Chiefs. If you know history that the Chiefs all left Oklahoma. Longtail/Wallen , Big Snake/Foster , Blue Jacket/Barnet and so on. All left in 1858 from Oklahoma.
 
Black Bob father to Abraham Longtail
 
Abraham Longtail-AKA- William Henry Wallen Born 1845 Kansas Died 1912. Berried in Belmore Ohio East Cemetery
 
Henry Longtail-AKA-John Walter Wallen Born 1875 Died 1920 of T.B. Berried in Belmore Ohio West Cemetery Great Grandfather Had one son Isaac Leland Wallen
 
Standing Turtle Longtail-AKA-Isaac Leland Wallen Born 1903 Died 1980 Berried in Shiloh Ohio
 
Isaac and the Clan Mothers choose me to be chief. Being his sons were not interested in the Traditional lineage. His Daughter my Mother fallows it today.
 
My use of the name Longtail was given to me by 4 of my Family that has passed away. Isaac Leland Wallen-Grandfather his Mother.
 Nina Pearl Foster(Sarah Biggs)/Wallen/Johnson-AKA- She Is Wise Born 1880 Died 1970 Great Grandmother-Daughter to Big Snake 3rd Isaac Foster(Biggs)-Great Great Grandfather
Mary Lowella Maroah Cooper/Mapes-Aka-Running Spirit Born 1873 Died 1972 Great Grandmother-Daughter to Daniel Cusac Cooper( Family members is berried in Findlay Ohio-Cooper Cemetery
Lovie Mae Mapes(Cooper decent) -AKA-Love of May Born 1903 Died 1987 Shiloh Ohio Cemetery -Grandmother
 
My Mother is sill alive and her name will not be put on the net.
She never put her ancestry on the net.
My fathers side was August Renz from Germany that moved to Minnasota that ended up in Kansas Married to a Shawnee woman
Ended up in Kansas Reservason. Ran a trade store with the Native Peoples. Him and the wife moved with children moved to Europe in 1858. That the Family ended up in the Concentration Camps in Germany. That Hitler killed them and few served. Out of 12 children only 6 lived of my Fathers Brothers and Sisters.
If you wish to play Hitler. And put me down as some want a be. You should first confront and talk to the one you are choosing to play God over.
 
I am documented and Elizabeth Longtail (Henrys Sister) Family decent stand with me. They live in Findlay Ohio area. Elzabeth's land in Kansas was taken by City on claim of Iminant domain.
 
Blue Jacket's Family lives about 5 mile from me as well to Document the Chiefs all left Oklahoma in 1858.
 
You had said Henry Longtail born 1907. He is a different one in history. Not the one I claim.
 
(he claims that the government told Henry not to go to Oklahoma but to go and start a "new tribe.)
 Keely I have never said this to no one. You should not lie like this.
 
The Shawne started moving fromKansas in 1854 to 1856. Before Bloody Kansas. Check your history.
 
Renz is full of lies, and I have been confronting him on message boards where he has spewed his lies as well as sent him a email of which he has not responded.
Keely you and I have never been in contact on message Boards that I ever remember of. I did receive your email and was working on this reply to you.
 
And I will pray to the Creator for your Uncle to get well. And I wish you peace as well.
 
I have passed this on to Elizabeth  Longtail's family as well.
 
 

Keely wrote the fallowing below to Canada and is claiming I am lying. When the Absentee an other Tribes and Nations have the facts. That Walter T Renz is very real. And Documented. I am not or the Chaliawa people looking Federal Rec. Though we speak Nation to Nation with Canada and The United States of America. Protecting our Ancestors and the Mounds. And much more. In the good will of the Native People's.
 
In peace
Oneh
Chief Walter T Renz of the Chaliawa (Cat Nation)

Fallowing was writte by Keely
 
You can pass this along to whomever you wish.
 
I recently, as of three days ago, learned of this Walter Renz... this is because he is using my family to boster her claim of being Shawnee Indian... He is using the Longtail name and it is not his to use.
 
My great grandmother was Anna Longtail, she was married to Daniel Squirrel, my grandfather was Isaac Squirrel and my father was Lemuel Squirrel... Now Walter claims one of his grandfathers was Henry Longtail, and Henry is the son of Abraham Longtail aka Jake.. however, Jake was my grandmothers brother, thus making Jake my uncle and Henry my cousin.
 
Walter claims that Henry was a "blood chief" but there is no such thing with the Shawnee people, he claims that the government told Henry not to go to Oklahoma but to go and start a "new tribe", the Shawnees began removing from Kansas in the 1860's... Henry was not born until 1907 so Walter had to lie about when Henry was born in order to fit his story... thus he had to lie about when Abraham/Jake was born as well... there are records from Jake that he was 14 years old when he went to Oklahoma.. he lived there and he is buried with family there. There is the Longtail Cemetery of which most of the Longtails are buried there, my aunt Eliza who married a Brown is buried there as well as my Uncle Moses Squirrel.
 
Renz is full of lies, and I have been confronting him on message boards where he has spewed his lies as well as sent him a email of which he has not responded.
 
My Uncle James Squirrel is one of our tribes former chairman, he has been in ill health but Uncle told me to go after this idiot.... and the other Longtail family members are watching online to see what happens.
 
Renz issue was partly moved to the board of "need research" I posted in there that no research is needed, the guy is a fraud...
 
I would knock this guy out if I ever met him in person... do you have any pictures of him?
 
Keely


 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 17, 2009, 01:34:39 pm
At this point it's under Research because there's competing accounts from Keely and Renz. Unfortunately there's not much I can add. Renz is only online on a few genealogy threads, sometimes alongside Keely's challenges to him. The Morning Star Shawnee show up as once having had a now defunct MSN group, plus a few listings on unrecognized tribes lists. There's no sign I can find of seeking a casino.

August Renz's family should show up in the historical records if they were killed in Nazi death camps. The Nazis were fanatic about record keeping.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 17, 2009, 10:39:07 pm
Nikki,

What the hell is wrong with you? Did you suddenly fall out of a tree and hit every branch on the way down?
Let me remind you of your private email to me:

Sego, Keely;


   Yes some of us here in Canada met Renz 2 times, as result of contact he made with one of my aquaintenances.

   There are a lot questions that we have about him , as much of what he told us doesn't add up. Especially, when his own people , this Chaliawa Nation really don't support what he does. They want him to do the work for him , but have have not given him any support, financially or physically. He basically told us that his mother, his wife and himself are the ones that do all of the work. The whole time he was here his wife called him about every 5 minutes, which ran up a huge cell phone bill. Then she will also call others up here running up their cell phone bills trying to reach him. He also wrote a cheque for 172.00 that bounced and he has dsihonoured by not covering it, after making several promises to. He also used and mouched off of people's goodness when he was here, promising to return to help us take care of the mounds issue in Toronto. He made several promises and guarentees of return, failing to keep his word. One of our chiefs at Tyendinaga, let me and my aquaintence know that his name is on a "to be dealt with list", because of his lack of keeping his committment to our people, and stating he would be by Stewart Maracle's side to support him. He made a big mistake with Stewart to make such a committment, and then not follow through with it. He is in toruble with the men's councils up here because of this and other things.
There were also questions about his genealogy as certain things do not add up.
Any blanks you can help us fill would greatly be appreciated. Renz also has been warned, that because he did not show up at the Clanmother's meeting at Six Nations Grand Territory last wednesday, his name would be mudd up here. Since then there has been no contact with him, nor have we heard anything from him. Again suspicion that he isn't who has told us he is and that he has no intention in clearing matters up here or taking responsibilty for what he says are his ancestoral sites in Toronto.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinga Mohawk Territory
 

Now you want to take up with this loser? LOL go for it ok??

as for your accusation of me being Seneca, and part of the confederated tribes, how many times do I gotta tell ya.. I aint Seneca! You have my tribe confused with the EASTERN BAND SHAWNEE.. they did infact live together, but I am NOT Eastern Band, I do have cousins in the Eastern Shawnee.. but those cousins are NOT Longtail family.. they are BLUEJACKET family.

Now as far as Walters claims to Darrel Larney, and Andy Warrior, of whom I know, and spoke with Darrel today, that is far from the truth of what he wrote, and anyone can call Darrel or Andy at the Absentee Shawnee Tribe and find out the truth about Walter Renz. PLUS, Longtails are not part of the Absentee Shawnee Tribe! Anyone who is Indian on these boards, will know, that NO TRIBE ever offers a tribal card to just anyone. We all have to apply for citizenship within our tribe. We ALL have to prove we are who we say we are.

The more and more Walter write, the more and more of a fool he makes of himself with his made up lies.

Notice in his email he claims that Abraham/Jake Longtail and Henry Lontail are burried in Ohio.. but I guess Walter did not count on the fact that the Longtail family has their own cemetery, and they are burried there with their families, and that cemetery is in OKLAHOMA not OHIO...

Also, are the records of interviews with Henry taken in 1969 or there abouts of which he speaks of his father arriving in Oklahoma, him being born in Oklahoma and spent his whole life in Oklahoma! These records are with the historical records at OU in Norman Oklahoma and are part of the Doris Duke collection. And it is not only records on file from Henry Longtail, but many, many others are there which mention the Longtail family...  when they arrived in Oklahoma, when they were born, when they died, who their children were, their names, who they married, where desendants are now..

If you think for one second that I am any part of any confederacy, and have no voice of my own, then you need to seek professional help... If you think I answer to any confederacy then you need to seek professional help, if you think that any confederacy has any say over what I do, what I think, or how I do it, then you need to seek professional help. The only persons I answer to is my tribal Elders, and they are NOT Seneca nor are they part of the confederacy. So get over yourself, this confederacy you belong to has no control over me, or my people... they are not god.


 


Now, for this "
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 18, 2009, 12:57:51 am
At this point it's under Research because there's competing accounts from Keely and Renz. Unfortunately there's not much I can add. Renz is only online on a few genealogy threads, sometimes alongside Keely's challenges to him. The Morning Star Shawnee show up as once having had a now defunct MSN group, plus a few listings on unrecognized tribes lists. There's no sign I can find of seeking a casino.

August Renz's family should show up in the historical records if they were killed in Nazi death camps. The Nazis were fanatic about record keeping.

He does not claim the Renz are Indian, he claims a different part of his family, which is his mothers side, so her maiden name would will be Wallen.

Currently, a couple of these "members" of this group "morning star" are on federal notice for violations of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act.

I dont know why this group would want to seek a casino... well yeah, its would be all about money and according to a email from Nikki, Walter is quite good at writing bad checks... I heard a rumor that Walter is in quite a bit of trouble for something and could be seeing the inside of a court room..

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 10:54:22 am
Nikki,
If you think for one second that I am any part of any confederacy, and have no voice of my own, then you need to seek professional help... If you think I answer to any confederacy then you need to seek professional help, if you think that any confederacy has any say over what I do, what I think, or how I do it, then you need to seek professional help. The only persons I answer to is my tribal Elders, and they are NOT Seneca nor are they part of the confederacy. So get over yourself, this confederacy you belong to has no control over me, or my people... they are not god.
Now, for this "

Keely, it's apparent that the person who needs to seek professional help is you , who carries on these hateful rants. You have gone off the deep end. And no I have not fallen out of tree, it's called consultation and hearing what others have to have say about this subject within the Six Nations Confederacy who have met Walter and are supporting him. And call our Confederacy down like this, will only get you into a lot trouble as your emails have been forwarded onto those who will take action to put a stop to this. As I suggested and you seem not to take suggestions too well, take this up with Renz directly and not on the internet. As it is now appearing that you are trying to push a land claim in an area that the Shawnee have no territorial or legitimate rights of claim to. If you knew anything about the teachings of Grandmother Moon, you would know that no one can own the land. Therefore all of these land claims are wrong, that nations outside of the Six Nations Confederacy do not have a say, and that the Six Nations Confederacy does have legitimate say and leadership over, you do fall within that jurisdiction, and therefore, don't have a say over any matters or goings on within the area of jurisdiction of the Six Nations Confederacy. The more you post here, the more rope you will be giving yourself with us.


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


From: renzsilver@hotmail.com
To: kdenning@cox.net
Subject: RE: My decent of Blood
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:38:25 -0400

Keely,
I never said that they offered me a card. I said I told them not to give me one.
Andrew and Darrel are wonderful people. And I am not using there name in a bad way at all. And Your on a path that has caused troubles for the Shawnee since 1800's. The Longtail land is under the Absentee Shawnee Tribe control.
I am not out to make fame or money from my ancestory.
And I did not say your family was Wallen. That was the name that was used here to hide the family. There is an article in the Toledo Blade. That a reporter came to the Wallen Cabin knowing that William was a Shawnee Chief. They would not open the door to speak with the reporter.
Your a researcher. Lets see if you can find that.
I have spent most of my life to benefit others. Not to harm people.
 
I wish you well. And take care.
Walter
 

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 11:12:42 am
WallenReport  
Descendants of Ralph Wallen  
  
Generation No. 1

 1.  RALPH1 WALLEN was born 1598-1603 in London, England, and died 1633-1634 in
Plymouth, Mass..  He married (1) JOYCE ?.  He married (2) JOYCE.
  Children of RALPH WALLEN and JOYCE ? are:
 2. i. THOMAS2 WALLEN, b. 1627, Plymouth, Massachusetts; d. July 19, 1674,
Providence, Rhode Island.
  ii. JANE WALLEN, m. JOHN HALL.
  
  iii. ANN WALLEN, b. Abt. 1624; m. JOHN SMALLEY.
  
  iv. RICHARD WALLEN.
  
  
  Child of RALPH WALLEN and JOYCE is:
 3. v. THOMAS2 WALLEN, b. 1627, Plymouth, Massachusetts; d. July 19, 1674,
Providence, Rhode Island.
  
  


Generation No. 2

  



 2.  THOMAS2 WALLEN (RALPH1) was born 1627 in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and died
July 19, 1674 in Providence, Rhode Island.  He married (1) MARGARET WHITE.  He
married (2) MARY ABBOTT, daughter of DANIEL ABBOTT and MARY.
  Children of THOMAS WALLEN and MARGARET WHITE are:
  i. WILLIAM3 WALLEN, b. May 20, 1670.
  
  ii. JOHN WALLEN, b. May 20, 1670.
  
  iii. CORNELIUS WALLEN, b. October 25, 1672.
  
  
  Children of THOMAS WALLEN and MARY ABBOTT are:
 4. iv. THOMAS3 WALLING II, b. October 22, 1662, Providence, Rhode Island; d.
October 22, 1724, Cohanse County, New York.
  v. JOHN WALLING, b. Abt. 1651.
  
  vi. GERSHOM WALLING, b. Abt. 1655.
  
  vii. ABIGAIL WALLEN, b. Abt. 1664.
  
 

 viii. JAMES WALLEN, b. Abt. 1666; d. April 04, 1753, Providence, Rhode Island;
m. ELIZABETH NOX, March 24, 1750/51, Providence, Rhode Island.
  
  
 3.  THOMAS2 WALLEN (RALPH1) was born 1627 in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and died
July 19, 1674 in Providence, Rhode Island.  He married MARY ABBOTT.
  Child of THOMAS WALLEN and MARY ABBOTT is:
 5. i. THOMAS3 WALLEN II, b. October 22, 1662, Providence, Rhode Island; d.
October 22, 1724, Cohanse County, New York.
  
  


Generation No. 3

  



 4.  THOMAS3 WALLING II (THOMAS2 WALLEN, RALPH1) was born October 22, 1662 in
Providence, Rhode Island, and died October 22, 1724 in Cohanse County, New York.
 He married SARAH ELWELL May 20, 1695.
  Children of THOMAS WALLING and SARAH ELWELL are:
  i. ABAGAIL4 WALLING, b. March 06, 1696/97; m. JOHN BEDIENT.
  
  ii. THOMAS WALLING, b. February 08, 1697/98, Providence, Rhode Island; m. (1)
BATHNIPLEATH CROSTHWAYT; m. (2) ELIZBETH ?.
  
 6. iii. JOHN WALLING, b. June 20, 1700, Salem, New Jersey.
  iv. WILLIAM WALLING, b. November 21, 1701, Salem, New Jersey; m. MARY
CATHARINE.
  
  v. MARY WALLING, b. September 08, 1703, Salem, New Jersey.
  
 7. vi. JAMES WALLING, b. April 02, 1705, Salem, New Jersey.
  vii. SAMUEL WALLING, b. March 14, 1705/06.
  
  
 5.  THOMAS3 WALLEN II (THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born October 22, 1662 in
Providence, Rhode Island, and died October 22, 1724 in Cohanse County, New York.
 He married SARAH ELWELL May 20, 1695, daughter of THOMAS ELWELL and SARAH
BASSETT.
  Children of THOMAS WALLEN and SARAH ELWELL are:
 8. i. ELISHA4 WALLING, b. July 26, 1708, Salem Co., New Jersey; d. 1785, Henry
Co., Virginia.
  ii. ABIGAIL WALLEN, b. March 05, 1697/98.
  
  iii. THOMAS WALLEN IV, b. February 08, 1698/99.
  
  iv. JOHN WALLEN, b. June 20, 1700.
  
  v. WILLIAM WALLEN, b. November 21, 1701.
  
  vi. MARY WALLEN, b. September 08, 1703.
  


  vii. JAMES WALLEN, b. April 02, 1705.
  
  viii. SAMUEL WALLEN, b. March 14, 1706/07.
  
  ix. JOSEPH WALLEN, b. April 30, 1709.
  
  x. BENJAMIN WALLEN, b. 1711.
  
  xi. REBECCA WALLEN, b. January 22, 1716/17.
  
  


Generation No. 4

  



 6.  JOHN4 WALLING (THOMAS3, THOMAS2 WALLEN, RALPH1) was born June 20, 1700 in
Salem, New Jersey.  He married (1) HOPE ORR.  He married (2) HOPE BOWDITCH.
  Child of JOHN WALLING and HOPE BOWDITCH is:
 9. i. PHEBE WALLING5 WALLING, b. September 15, 1736.
 7.  JAMES4 WALLING (THOMAS3, THOMAS2 WALLEN, RALPH1) was born April 02, 1705 in
Salem, New Jersey.  He married MARY DELASHMUTT.
  Children of JAMES WALLING and MARY DELASHMUTT are:
  i. JAMES5 WALLING, b. September 20, 1727.
  
  ii. JOHN WALLING, b. Abt. 1729.
  
  iii. DELASHMUTT WALLING, b. Abt. 1740.
  
  iv. JOHN WALLING, b. Abt. 1742.
  
  
 8.  ELISHA4 WALLING (THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born July 26, 1708
in Salem Co., New Jersey, and died 1785 in Henry Co., Virginia.  He married MARY
BLEVINS Abt. 1730 in Prince Georges County, Maryland, daughter of WILLIAM
BLEVINS.
  Children of ELISHA WALLING and MARY BLEVINS are:
 10. i. JOSEPH5 WALLEN, b. Abt. 1738, Prince Georges County, Maryland; d. 1792,
Kentucky.
 11. ii. THOMAS WALLEN, b. Abt. 1731, Maryland; d. Abt. 1801, Lee County, Va..
  iii. BETSY WALLEN, b. Abt. 1733; m. WILLIAM ROBERTS.
  
  iv. SARAH WALLEN, b. Abt. 1742; m. CLEMENT LEE.
  
  v. JAMES WALLEN, b. Abt. 1746; m. MARY WHITE?.
  
  vi. MARGERY WALLEN, b. Abt. 1748, Pittsylvania Co., Va.; m. ISAAC RICE,
Pittsylvania Co.,Virginia.
  
 




 vii. JOHN WALLEN, b. July 27, 1750, Lunenberg Co., Virginia; d. April 22,
1836, McMinn Co.. Tennessee; m. (1) FRANCES HALE; m. (2) ELIZABETH ROBERTS,
February 18, 1786, Lee County, Va..
  
 12. viii. ELISHA WALLEN , JR., b. Abt. 1735, Maryland; d. January 1814, Wash.
County, Missouri.
 13. ix. THOMAS WALLING, b. Abt. 1734, Maryland; d. Abt. 1801, Lee County, Va..
  x. ELIZABETH WALLING, m. WILL ROBERTS.
  
  xi. ALLEN WALLING.
  
 14. xii. ELISHA WALLING, b. 1732, Prince George County, Maryland.
  
  



Generation No. 5

  



 9.  PHEBE WALLING5 WALLING (JOHN4, THOMAS3, THOMAS2 WALLEN, RALPH1) was born
September 15, 1736.  She married ANDREW PHILLIPS.
  Child of PHEBE WALLING and ANDREW PHILLIPS is:
  i. LUCINDA6 PHILLIPS, b. October 1763; m. JOHN HENRY.
  
  
 10.  JOSEPH5 WALLEN (ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was
born Abt. 1738 in Prince Georges County, Maryland, and died 1792 in Kentucky.  
He married MILLICENT JONES Abt. 1767 in Pittsylvania Co.,Virginia, daughter of
THOMAS JONES and DIANA.
  Children of JOSEPH WALLEN and MILLICENT JONES are:
 15. i. JAMES CARR6 WALLEN, b. March 18, 1771, Montgomery County, Virginia; d.
October 27, 1845, Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  ii. ELIZABETH WALLEN, b. April 02, 1769, Pittsylvania Co.,Virginia; m.
LITTLETON BROOKS.
  
  iii. NANCY WALLEN, b. May 29, 1773; m. (1) ELIAS WEDDLE, 1790, Lee County,
Va.; m. (2) ELIJAH CURRY, 1814, Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  
  iv. THOMAS WALLEN, d. 1792, Kentucky.
  
  v. ROSAMOND WALLEN, b. April 02, 1777, Grayson Co., Virginia; d. Brown Co.,
Indiana; m. THOMAS WEDDLE, 1796, Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  
  vi. SUSANNAH WALLEN, b. October 11, 1778, Grayson Co., Virginia; d. January
11, 1841, Sparta, Tennessee; m. (1) JOHN HERD, 1794, Hawkins County, Tennessee;
m. (2) WILLIAM ROGERS, 1807, Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  
  vii. MARY WALLEN, b. March 12, 1782; m. DANIEL WEDDLE, Abt. 1798, Hawkins
County, Tennessee.
  
 


 viii. MORNING WALLEN, b. March 29, 1784, Hawkins County, Tennessee; m. STEPHEN
WILBURN.
  
  
 11.  THOMAS5 WALLEN (ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was
born Abt. 1731 in Maryland, and died Abt. 1801 in Lee County, Va..  He married
MARY COX, daughter of STEPHEN COX and JUDITH WOODSON.
  Child of THOMAS WALLEN and MARY COX is:
 16. i. JUDY6 WALLEN, b. June 17, 1768.
 12.  ELISHA5 WALLEN , JR. (ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1)
was born Abt. 1735 in Maryland, and died January 1814 in Wash. County, Missouri.
 He married CATHERINE ELIZABETH BLEVINS.
  Children of ELISHA WALLEN and CATHERINE BLEVINS are:
  i. WILLIAM6 WALLEN, b. 1759; d. 1850.
  
  ii. CATHERINE WALLEN, b. 1766.
  
  iii. BERRYMAN WALLEN, b. Abt. 1770; d. Abt. 1797.
  
  iv. JOHN WALLEN, b. Abt. 1780; d. 1852.
  
  v. ELIZABETH WALLEN, b. 1793; d. 1852.
  
  vi. LUCY WALLEN, b. 1795.
  
  vii. ELISHA WALLEN III, b. November 30, 1795; m. MARY HUGHS.
  
  
 13.  THOMAS5 WALLING (ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
Abt. 1734 in Maryland, and died Abt. 1801 in Lee County, Va..  He married MARY
COX.
  Children of THOMAS WALLING and MARY COX are:
 17. i. JOSEPH6 WALLING, b. 1775.
  ii. STEPHEN WALLING.
  
  iii. WILLIAM WALLING.
  
 18. iv. ELISHA WALLING, b. March 06, 1760.
 14.  ELISHA5 WALLING (ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
1732 in Prince George County, Maryland.  He married CATHERINE ELIZABETH BLEVINS.

  Children of ELISHA WALLING and CATHERINE BLEVINS are:
  i. WILLIAM6 WALLEN, b. 1759.
  
  ii. CATHERINE WALLING, b. 1766.
  
  iii. BERRYMAN WALLING, b. Abt. 1770.
  
  iv. JOHN WALLING, b. Abt. 1780.
  
  v. ELIZABETH WALLING, b. Abt. 1793.
  
  vi. ELISHA WALLING, b. November 30, 1795.
  
  vii. LUCY PALMER WALLING, b. Abt. 1798.
  
  


Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 11:13:55 am
Generation No. 6

  



 15.  JAMES CARR6 WALLEN (JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2,
RALPH1) was born March 18, 1771 in Montgomery County, Virginia, and died October
27, 1845 in Hawkins County, Tennessee.  He married MARY JOHNSON March 03, 1791
in Hawkins County, Tennessee, daughter of MOSES JOHNSON and SARAH.
  Children of JAMES WALLEN and MARY JOHNSON are:
 19. i. SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, b. January 08, 1804, Hawkins County, Tn.; d. 1875,
Kyles Ford, Tn..
  ii. NANCY WALLEN, b. November 25, 1791; m. THOMAS LAWSON, May 31, 1812,
Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  
  iii. ELIZABETH WALLEN, b. June 01, 1793, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d. 1852,
Hancock County, Tennessee; m. WILLIAM BAKER, October 10, 1810, Hawkins County,
Tennessee.
  
 20. iv. JOHN J. WALLEN, b. December 30, 1794, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d.
Missouri.
  v. MILLICENT WALLEN, b. January 04, 1797; m. ABRAHAM BLEDSOE, December 12,
1816.
  
  vi. JOSEPH B. WALLEN, b. September 26, 1798, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d.
March 02, 1852, Barry Co., Missouri; m. ELENDER NELLIE BAKER, December 16, 1819.

  
 21. vii. JAMES F. WALLEN, b. 1809, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d. 1864, Hancock
County, Tennessee.
  viii. HENRY WALLEN, b. Abt. 1811.
  
  ix. HANNAH WALLEN, b. Abt. 1813.
  
 22. x. WILLIAM J. WALLEN, b. July 14, 1816, Hawkins County, Tennessee; d.
September 07, 1886.
  xi. JESSE WALLEN, b. November 24, 1819, Hawkins County, Tennessee; m. SUSAN
ROBERTS, February 19, 1843, White County, Tennessee.
  
  
 16.  JUDY6 WALLEN (THOMAS5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2,
RALPH1) was born June 17, 1768.  She married ISAAC CHRISMAN, son of ISAAC
CHRISMAN and JANE SCOTT.
  Children of JUDY WALLEN and ISAAC CHRISMAN are:
  i. JANE7 CHRISMAN, b. August 11, 1788.
  
  ii. MARY CHRISMAN, b. August 11, 1788.
  
  iii. MARGRET CHRISMAN, b. April 10, 1790.
  
  iv. GILBERT CHRISMAN, b. May 06, 1792.
  
 

 v. ELISHA CHRISMAN, b. July 17, 1794.
  
  vi. ISAAC CHRISMAN, b. March 23, 1796.
  
  vii. ELINOR CHRISMAN, b. January 17, 1798.
  
  viii. AGNES CHRISMAN, b. March 09, 1800.
  
  ix. THOMAS CHRISMAN, b. April 18, 1802.
  
  x. WILLIAM CHRISMAN, b. September 26, 1804.
  
  xi. STEPHEN CHRISMAN, b. October 12, 1806.
  
  
 17.  JOSEPH6 WALLING (THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was
born 1775.  He married FRANCES MARY ?.
  Children of JOSEPH WALLING and FRANCES ? are:
 23. i. ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, b. 1807, Scott County, Va.; d. Abt. 1865.
  ii. JOHN WALLEN.
  
  iii. PATSY WALLEN.
  
  iv. MARY WALLEN, b. 1804.
  
  v. JOSEPH WALLEN, b. Abt. 1810.
  
  vi. JESSE WALLEN, b. November 14, 1819, Scott County, Va.; m. ELIZABETH
BISHOP.
  
  
 18.  ELISHA6 WALLING (THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was
born March 06, 1760.  He married ANN ?.
  Children of ELISHA WALLING and ANN ? are:
  i. MARY7 WALLING.
  
  ii. AGNES WALLING.
  
  iii. WINIFRED WALLING.
  
  iv. CATHERINE WALLING.
  
  v. ELIZABETH WALLING.
  
  vi. LUCY WALLING.
  
  vii. ELISHA WALLING.
  
  viii. WILLIAM WALLING.
  
  







Generation No. 7

  



 19.  SUSANNAH7 WALLEN (JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN
II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born January 08, 1804 in Hawkins County, Tn., and died
1875 in Kyles Ford, Tn..  She married JOHN SIMPSON BAKER May 27, 1825, son of
ROBERT BAKER and ELIZABETH BLOUNT.
  Children of SUSANNAH WALLEN and JOHN BAKER are:
 24. i. WALLEN W.8 BAKER, b. September 09, 1837, Tennessee; d. Unknown.
  ii. WILLIAM BAKER, b. January 17, 1826.
  
  iii. JAMES ELIJAH BAKER, b. September 1827.
  
  iv. ELIZABETH BAKER, b. May 31, 1829.
  
 25. v. JOHN BAKER, b. April 22, 1831; d. March 26, 1903, Lee County, Va..
  vi. SUSANNAH BAKER, b. April 10, 1833.
  
  vii. NANCY BAKER, b. September 13, 1835.
  
  viii. ELY BAKER, b. October 25, 1839.
  
  ix. MANILY BAKER, b. February 05, 1842.
  
  x. MARY BAKER, b. April 02, 1844.
  
 26. xi. NOAH BAKER, b. October 19, 1846; d. 1905, Pineville, Kentucky.
 20.  JOHN J.7 WALLEN (JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II,
THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born December 30, 1794 in Hawkins County, Tennessee, and
died in Missouri.  He married ELIZABETH WALLING March 07, 1813 in Hawkins
County, Tennessee.
  Children of JOHN WALLEN and ELIZABETH WALLING are:
  i. JESSE8 WALLEN, b. November 26, 1813.
  
  ii. MILLICENT WALLEN, b. November 10, 1815.
  
 27. iii. JAMES WALLEN, b. February 20, 1818.
  iv. JOHN CARR WALLEN, b. February 20, 1820.
  
  v. NANCY WALLEN, b. December 01, 1821.
  
  vi. SUSANNAH WALLEN, b. March 01, 1824.
  
  vii. JOSEPH WALLEN, b. June 05, 1826.
  
  viii. SHADY WALLEN, b. December 24, 1830.
  
  ix. ANDREW WALLEN, b. 1830.
  
  x. SHADRACK WALLEN, b. 1828.
  
  

 21.  JAMES F.7 WALLEN (JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN
II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1809 in Hawkins County, Tennessee, and died 1864
in Hancock County, Tennessee.  He married MARGARET ROBINSON April 05, 1832 in
Hawkins County, Tennessee.
  Children of JAMES WALLEN and MARGARET ROBINSON are:
 28. i. HANNAH8 WALLEN, b. 1852, Hancock County, Tennessee; d. March 1912,
Hancock County, Tennessee.
 29. ii. ALFRED WALLEN, b. 1843; d. 1912.
 22.  WILLIAM J.7 WALLEN (JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN
II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born July 14, 1816 in Hawkins County, Tennessee, and
died September 07, 1886.  He married JANE BANKS June 09, 1836.
 Notes for WILLIAM J. WALLEN:
William J. Wallen's nickname was "Big Sandy".  He was a farmer and a blacksmith;
served in Union Army in Civil War.
  Child of WILLIAM WALLEN and JANE BANKS is:
 30. i. JOSEPH B.8 WALLEN, b. February 18, 1840; d. August 12, 1912.
 23.  ELIZABETH7 WALLEN (JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II,
THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1807 in Scott County, Va., and died Abt. 1865.  She
married (1) ? FLANARY.  She married (2) JOHN MILLER.  She married (3) SAMPSON
BISHOP Abt. 1827 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of ELIZABETH WALLEN and SAMPSON BISHOP are:
 31. i. JOSEPH8 BISHOP, b. 1830, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d. October 09,
1878, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
  ii. JOHN BISHOP, b. 1828, Scott County, Va.; d. May 27, 1865, Scott County,
Va..
  
 32. iii. LOUISA MILLER, b. March 13, 1838, Scott County, Va.; d. February 13,
1922, Scott County, Va..
  
  


Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 11:15:14 am
Generation No. 8

  



 24.  WALLEN W.8 BAKER (SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born September 09, 1837 in Tennessee,
and died Unknown.  He married SIDNEY J. WARREN March 21, 1862 in Rockcastle
County, Kentucky.
 Notes for WALLEN W. BAKER:
Wallen W. Baker fought in the Civil War for the Union in the 19th Kentucky
Infantry.  He was listed in the 1890 Hancock County, Tn. Veterans Census.
  Children of WALLEN BAKER and SIDNEY WARREN are:
  i. LAURA9 BAKER, b. Abt. 1877, Tennessee; d. Unknown; m. TYLER MAXEY.
  
 33. ii. MINERVA BAKER, b. Abt. 1870, Tennessee.
  iii. ALICE BAKER, b. Abt. 1872.
  
  iv. MARTHA BAKER, b. Abt. 1878; m. JIM LAWSON.
  
 



34. v. CAROLINE BAKER, b. October 15, 1867, Crab Orchard, Kentucky(Lincoln
County); d. May 20, 1938, Stonega, Va.(Wise County).
  vi. NOAH BAKER, b. Abt. 1865.
  
  vii. JEFFERSON BAKER, b. December 08, 1876, Hancock County, Tn.; d. November
19, 1947, St. Charles, Va.(Lee County).
  
  viii. SUSAN BAKER, b. Abt. 1863.
  
  
 25.  JOHN8 BAKER (SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born April 22, 1831, and died March 26,
1903 in Lee County, Va..  He married (1) PERMDY VANNOY February 28, 1850 in
Claiborne County, Tennessee.  He married (2) POLLY RAMSEY September 15, 1850 in
Claiborne County, Tennessee.
  Child of JOHN BAKER and PERMDY VANNOY is:
 35. i. ISAAC9 BAKER, b. March 24, 1850, Tennessee; d. April 02, 1910, Lee
County, Va..
  Child of JOHN BAKER and POLLY RAMSEY is:
  ii. WILLIAM GRANVILLE9 BAKER, b. February 19, 1891, Oct. 29, 1891.
  
  
 26.  NOAH8 BAKER (SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born October 19, 1846, and died 1905 in
Pineville, Kentucky.  He married LUCY ANN GIBSON January 09, 1867 in Pulaski
County, Kentucky, daughter of JAMES GIBSON.
  Children of NOAH BAKER and LUCY GIBSON are:
  i. WALLEN9 BAKER, b. Abt. 1869.
  
  ii. THURMAN BAKER, b. April 1872; d. Clay County, Kentucky; m. IVA BELL.
  
 36. iii. JOHN BAKER, b. November 1874, Sneedville, Tn.; d. June 19, 1929, Flat
Lick, Ky.(Bell County).
  iv. NOAH BAKER , JR., b. Abt. 1879; m. LULU GREENE.
  
  v. ELI BAKER, b. 1871, Clay County, Kentucky.
  
  vi. MAARY BAKER.
  
  
 27.  JAMES8 WALLEN (JOHN J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3
WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born February 20, 1818.  He married JANE BURTON.

  Children of JAMES WALLEN and JANE BURTON are:
 37. i. JOHN W.9 WALLEN, b. 1852.
  ii. MALISSA WALLEN, b. 1839.
  
  iii. ROBERT WALLEN, b. 1842.
  
  iv. MARIAN WALLEN, b. 1844.
  
  v. RICHARD WALLEN, b. 1845.
  
  vi. MARGARET WALLEN, b. 1849.
  
  

vii. MARTHA WALLEN, b. 1854.
  
  viii. ELIZABETH WALLEN, b. 1856.
  
  
 28.  HANNAH8 WALLEN (JAMES F.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3
WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1852 in Hancock County, Tennessee, and died
March 1912 in Hancock County, Tennessee.  She married JOHN WESLEY FANNON Abt.
1873 in Hancock County, Tennessee.
  Child of HANNAH WALLEN and JOHN FANNON is:
 38. i. LONA DEANNA9 FANNON, b. July 15, 1876, Hancock County, Tennessee; d.
September 09, 1961, Claiborne County, Tennessee.
 29.  ALFRED8 WALLEN (JAMES F.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3
WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1843, and died 1912.
  Child of ALFRED WALLEN is:
 39. i. CHARLES9 WALLEN, b. November 02, 1874; d. November 03, 1962.
 30.  JOSEPH B.8 WALLEN (WILLIAM J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born February 18, 1840, and died August
12, 1912.  He married (1) SUSAN BAKER.  He married (2) ELIZA TIGNOR Aft. 1868.
  
  
  Children of JOSEPH WALLEN and SUSAN BAKER are:
  i. LUTHER9 WALLEN, b. September 08, 1866.
  
  ii. ELIZABETH WALLEN, b. April 15, 1868; m. NEWTON DEAN, December 19, 1889.
  
  
  Children of JOSEPH WALLEN and ELIZA TIGNOR are:
 40. iii. RUFUS ISAAC9 WALLEN, b. October 19, 1881, Hancock County, Tn.; d.
April 28, 1953, Hancock County, Tn..
 41. iv. WILLIAM HENRY WALLEN, b. May 22, 1879; d. 1958.
  v. SARAH J. WALLEN, b. June 07, 1870; d. July 13, 1913; m. RICHARD JOHNSON.
  
  vi. CORDELIA WALLEN, b. June 13, 1871, Hancock County, Tn.; m. DAVID ROBERTS.
  
  vii. MARTHA J. WALLEN, b. August 01, 1872; d. July 24, 1901; m. (1) HAMPTON
HURD; m. (2) THOMAS JOHNSON.
  
  viii. MELINDA WALLEN, b. June 06, 1874; d. March 22, 1936; m. BURDINE D.
FISHER.
  
  ix. JOHN W. WALLEN, b. 1875, Hancock County, Tn.; d. 1955; m. (1) SARAH
BROTHERTON; m. (2) KATE BIGGS.
  
  x. MARY P. WALLEN, b. January 02, 1881; d. June 03, 1940; m. HAMPTON R.
WILLIS.
  
  xi. PHEBE TENNESSEE WALLEN, b. January 04, 1882; d. October 08, 1974; m.
LILBURN J. FISHER.
  
  xii. JOSEPH LLOYD WALLEN, b. August 10, 1887; d. January 15, 1975; m. ETHEL
BLEDSOE, 1913.
  
  xiii. ARTHUR D. WALLEN, b. June 03, 1890; d. January 09, 1897.
  
  

xiv. LEANDER WALLEN, b. February 17, 1877; d. June 24, 1937; m. IDA WADDELL,
1906.
  
  
 31.  JOSEPH8 BISHOP (ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1830 in Duffield, Va.(Scott
County), and died October 09, 1878 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County).  He married
NANCY A. BRICKEY Abt. 1850 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of JOSEPH BISHOP and NANCY BRICKEY are:
 42. i. JAMES CONLEY9 BISHOP, b. August 1872, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
1925, Scott County, Va..
 43. ii. MARGARET C. BISHOP, b. 1851.
 44. iii. SARAH JANE BISHOP, b. July 11, 1853, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
 45. iv. JOHN SOLOMON BISHOP, b. August 09, 1855, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. October 07, 1927, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
 46. v. SAMPSON BISHOP, b. March 24, 1859, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
  vi. HENRY BISHOP, b. February 1861, Scott County, Va.; d. December 22, 1865,
Scott County, Va..
  
 47. vii. ELIJAH MARTIN BISHOP, b. July 1862, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
1950.
 48. viii. ISAAC DAVID BISHOP, b. February 1874, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
Scott County, Va..
 32.  LOUISA8 MILLER (ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born March 13, 1838 in Scott County,
Va., and died February 13, 1922 in Scott County, Va..  She married (1) JAMES W.
BISHOP August 14, 1859 in Scott County, Va..  She married (2) WILLIAM PATTON
FORD April 17, 1866 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of LOUISA MILLER and JAMES BISHOP are:
  i. LAFAYETTE WILLIAM9 BISHOP, b. September 1860, Scott County, Va.; d. Scott
County, Va..
  
 49. ii. WILLIAM JESSE BISHOP, b. April 03, 1862.
  Children of LOUISA MILLER and WILLIAM FORD are:
 50. iii. POLLY ANN9 FORD.
 51. iv. AMANDA JANE FORD, b. 1865, Scott County, Va.; d. December 19, 1931,
Scott County, Va..
  v. JAMES L. FORD, b. February 1873, Scott County, Va.; m. ADDIE WAMPLER, Abt.
1896.
  
 52. vi. WILLIAM PATTON FORD ,JR., b. January 18, 1874, Scott County, Va.; d.
January 06, 1951, Scott County, Va..
  vii. NANCY FORD, b. 1878; m. JOE BARNETT.
  
  




  







Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 11:16:29 am
Generation No. 9


 33.  MINERVA9 BAKER (WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born Abt. 1870 in
Tennessee.  She married CARTER HENDERSON ANDERSON.
  Children of MINERVA BAKER and CARTER ANDERSON are:
 53. i. MILAM10 ANDERSON, b. Abt. 1892.
  ii. LILLIE ANDERSON, m. RIGSBY.
  
  iii. LAURA ANDERSON, m. KINSER.
  
  iv. FRANCES ANDERSON, m. ROBERTS.
  
  
 34.  CAROLINE9 BAKER (WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born October 15, 1867
in Crab Orchard, Kentucky(Lincoln County), and died May 20, 1938 in Stonega,
Va.(Wise County).  She married (1) MCCLELLAN BELCHER Abt. 1883, son of SIMEON
BELCHER and CELIA.  She married (2) GEORGE SPROLES May 24, 1910 in Wise County,
Virginia, son of B.N. SPROLES.
  
  Children of CAROLINE BAKER and MCCLELLAN BELCHER are:
  i. MARSHALL10 BELCHER.
  
 54. ii. GEORGE BELCHER, b. 1888; d. Unknown.
 55. iii. LILY BELCHER, b. 1889; d. Unknown, Stonega, Va..
  iv. WILLY BELCHER, b. 1889; d. Unknown.
  
 56. v. MARY DOVIE BELCHER, b. January 28, 1902, Sneedville, Tennessee; d.
December 02, 1986, Dayton, Ohio.
 35.  ISAAC9 BAKER (JOHN8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4
WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born March 24, 1850 in
Tennessee, and died April 02, 1910 in Lee County, Va..  He married (1) MARGARET
ROBBINS.  He married (2) MARGARET NORA CATHERINE THOMAS September 07, 1880.
  Children of ISAAC BAKER and MARGARET THOMAS are:
  i. MARGARET10 BAKER, b. July 13, 1881; d. November 26, 1964; m. GEORGE
WASHINGTON WOOLARD, Abt. 1900.
  
  ii. MOSES SAMPSON BAKER, b. June 12, 1883; m. SARA ANN WILLIAMS, August 03,
1904.
  
  iii. JOHN WESLEY BAKER, b. November 13, 1886; m. SARA CATHERINE COFFMAN, Abt.
1902.
  
 57. iv. WILLIAM JESS BAKER, b. February 19, 1889; d. December 30, 1968, Smyth
County, Va..
  v. JOSEPH BAKER, b. March 02, 1890; m. MARY TRITT, Abt. 1927.
  
  vi. THOMAS FRANKLIN BAKER, b. October 26, 1892; d. April 25, 1977, Lee County,
Va.; m. EMMER PEARLIE ROGERS.
  
  
 



36.  JOHN9 BAKER (NOAH8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4
WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born November 1874 in
Sneedville, Tn., and died June 19, 1929 in Flat Lick, Ky.(Bell County).  He
married DORA MARGARET NELSON.
  Children of JOHN BAKER and DORA NELSON are:
 58. i. BILL JAY10 BAKER, b. May 16, 1915, Tensley, Ky.(Bell County); d. October
05, 1984.
  ii. JAMES W. BAKER, b. 1906; d. January 19, 1953; m. NADINE GAMBLE.
  
  iii. MINNIE BAKER, b. 1910; d. 1929; m. HARVY GRAY.
  
  iv. MATTIE BAKE,  m. (1) OTIS MIRACLE; m. (2) STICE.
  
  v. LUCY BAKER
  
  
 37.  JOHN W.9 WALLEN (JAMES8, JOHN J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING,
THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1852.  He married MARY JOHNSON 1871
in Lee County, Virginia.
  Children of JOHN WALLEN and MARY JOHNSON are:
 59. i. ELIZA10 WALLEN, b. 1879, Lee County, Virginia.
  ii. ELBERT WALLEN, b. 1890.
  
  
 38.  LONA DEANNA9 FANNON (HANNAH8 WALLEN, JAMES F.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born July 15, 1876 in
Hancock County, Tennessee, and died September 09, 1961 in Claiborne County,
Tennessee.  She married WILSON SHERMAN JAYNES October 16, 1893 in Claiborne
County, Tennessee.
  Child of LONA FANNON and WILSON JAYNES is:
  i. MARTHA GENEVA10 JAYNES, b. , Claiborne County, Tennessee.
  
  
 39.  CHARLES9 WALLEN (ALFRED8, JAMES F.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4
WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born November 02, 1874, and
died November 03, 1962.  He married ADDIE YEARY August 28, 1900.
  Children of CHARLES WALLEN and ADDIE YEARY are:
 60. i. CHARLES WALLEN10 JR..
  ii. WIRTIE WALLEN.,  m. G.H. TRENT.
  
  iii. ALFRED BURKETTE WALLEN, b. November 16, 1903; d. November 01, 1952.
  
  iv. EMMA WALLEN,  m. CHARLES TESTERMAN.
  
  v. MARY JO WALLEN,  m. CURTIS HODGE.
  
  vi. BEN WALLEN
  
  vii. KENNETH WALLEN, b. March 12, 1917; d. January 01, 1976.
  
  viii. NINA WALLEN, b. May 10, 1905; d. July 30, 1979; m. ASA ARNOLD.
  
  




 40.  RUFUS ISAAC9 WALLEN (JOSEPH B.8, WILLIAM J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born October 19, 1881
in Hancock County, Tn., and died April 28, 1953 in Hancock County, Tn..  He
married EMALINE WADDELL February 02, 1908.
  Children of RUFUS WALLEN and EMALINE WADDELL are:
 61. i. JOSEPH CALLOWAY10 WALLEN, b. , Hancock County, Tn..
  ii. ELMER EWING WALLEN, b. March 07, 1910, Hancock County, Tn.; d. August 11,
1964; m. JEWEL MOLES.
  
  iii. HOMER HORACE WALLEN, b. Hancock County, Tn.; m. ORA ANDERSON.
  
  iv. BASCOM HUBERT WALLEN, b. Hancock County, Tn.; m. (1) MYRTLE HURD; m. (2)
PAULINE PEARSON.
  
  v. FAYE BLANCH WALLEN,  m. CLARENCE COBLE.
  
  vi. IRENE ELLA WALLEN,  m. J.C. CLONCE.
  
  vii. EUGENE CARSON WALLEN,  m. MAUDE OSBORNE.
  
  viii. LAUNA V. WALLEN, m. GLENN SMITH.
  
  
 41.  WILLIAM HENRY9 WALLEN (JOSEPH B.8, WILLIAM J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born May 22, 1879, and
died 1958.  He married (1) LAURA P. BROTHERTON.  He married (2) BERTHA BLEDSOE
1911, daughter of ISAAC BLEDSOE and REBECCA WALLEN.
  Child of WILLIAM WALLEN and BERTHA BLEDSOE is:
 62. i. OVAL JOE10 WALLEN, b. 1911; d. 1967.
 42.  JAMES CONLEY9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born August 1872 in
Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died 1925 in Scott County, Va..  He married
ELIZABETH ELLEN MOSELY.
  Children of JAMES BISHOP and ELIZABETH MOSELY are:
 63. i. JOSEPH EARL10 BISHOP.
  ii. ESTELLA BISHOP, m. MOORE.
  
  iii. MARGARET NANCY BISHOP, m. ALLEN.
  
  iv. FRANK BISHOP.
  
 64. v. WINIFRED HELEN BISHOP.
  vi. MCCOY BISHOP.
  
  
 43.  MARGARET C.9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5,
ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1851.  She married BRAMBLE
REDWINE Aft. 1866.
  Children of MARGARET BISHOP and BRAMBLE REDWINE are:
  i. EMMET10 REDWINE.
  
  ii. DOC REDWINE.
  
  iii. CHARLIE REDWINE.
  
 

 iv. JOHN REDWINE.
  
  v. MELISSA REDWINE.
  
  vi. IDA REDWINE.
  
  vii. ELLA REDWINE.
  
  
 44.  SARAH JANE9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5,
ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born July 11, 1853 in Duffield,
Va.(Scott County).  She married WILLIAM T. BAILIE December 03, 1872 in Scott
County, Va..
  Children of SARAH BISHOP and WILLIAM BAILIE are:
  i. JOHN10 BAILEY.
  
  ii. NANCY M. BAILEY, b. October 1873.
  
  iii. JOSEPH ROBERT BAILEY, b. September 29, 1878.
  
 65. iv. LAURA ALICE BAILIE, b. May 1881, Virginia.
 45.  JOHN SOLOMON9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born August 09, 1855
in Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died October 07, 1927 in Duffield, Va.(Scott
County).  He married MATILDA COMER PETERSON November 12, 1872 in Duffield,
Va.(Scott County).
  Children of JOHN BISHOP and MATILDA PETERSON are:
  i. HENRY COLUMBUS10 BISHOP, b. August 20, 1874, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
  
  ii. WILLIAM SAMPSON BISHOP, b. October 24, 1875, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. April 25, 1920, Seth, West Virginia.
  
 66. iii. MAGGIE ALICE BISHOP, b. November 22, 1877, Duffield, Va.(Scott
County); d. February 04, 1944.
 67. iv. DORA BELLE BISHOP, b. February 19, 1879, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. April 17, 1958.
  v. JOSEPH MASBY BISHOP, b. December 07, 1880, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
June 14, 1971, Virginia.
  
  vi. CHARLIE T. BISHOP, b. August 08, 1882; d. January 01, 1888.
  
  vii. WIRLIE B. BISHOP, b. August 08, 1882; d. October 10, 1888.
  
  viii. ELIJAH R. BISHOP, b. May 30, 1884; d. August 10, 1889.
  
  ix. NANCY VENUS BISHOP, b. November 07, 1886, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
July 26, 1974, Virginia; m. HERSCHEL TILSON CHESSER, December 28, 1924.
  
  x. JAMES DAVID BISHOP, b. February 28, 1889, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d.
Virginia.
  
  xi. ISAAC LUCIEN LEE BISHOP, b. January 28, 1892, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. February 14, 1924, Virginia.
  
 


68. xii. JOHN PROCTOR BISHOP, b. March 07, 1894, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. October 28, 1970, Pineville, Kentucky.
 69. xiii. OMAR GARRETT BISHOP, b. April 20, 1896, Duffield, Va.(Scott County);
d. October 09, 1983, Fort Pierce, Florida.
 70. xiv. JOSIE LILLIAN BISHOP, b. October 14, 1900, Duffield, Va.(Scott
County).
 46.  SAMPSON9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5,
ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born March 24, 1859 in
Duffield, Va.(Scott County).  He married JEMIMA KELLY 1877.
  Children of SAMPSON BISHOP and JEMIMA KELLY are:
  i. JOHN10 BISHOP.
  
  ii. CHARLIE BISHOP.
  
  iii. BECKY BISHOP.
  
  iv. NAN BISHOP.
  
  v. LAURA BISHOP.
  
  
 47.  ELIJAH MARTIN9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born July 1862 in
Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died 1950.  He married LOUDEMA K. PETERSON
March 22, 1892 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of ELIJAH BISHOP and LOUDEMA PETERSON are:
 71. i. WILLIAM HARRISON10 BISHOP, b. January 1889, Scott County, Va.; d. 1966.
  ii. JOHN E. BISHOP, b. March 1891, Scott County, Va..
  
  iii. ERNEST EDWIN BISHOP, b. Abt. 1893, Scott County, Va..
  
  iv. JOSEPH WORLEY BISHOP, b. September 28, 1895, Scott County, Va.; d.
February 07, 1975, Wise County, Va.; m. IDA MILLER.
  
  v. LULA JANE BISHOP, b. 1896, Scott County, Va.; d. Bef. 1995; m. WILLIAM H.
FLANARY.
  
 72. vi. MAGGIE ALICE BISHOP, b. 1897, Scott County, Va.; d. July 05, 1974.
 73. vii. VENUS NANCY BISHOP, b. 1899, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d. April 24,
1994, Miami, Florida.
  viii. SAMPSON BISHOP, b. 1902, Scott County, Va.; d. Bef. 1995; m. EDITH
TAYLOR, February 06, 1937, Scott County, Va..
  
  ix. BEATRICE MAY BISHOP, b. 1904; m. WIDNER.
  
 74. x. NOBLE CONLEY BISHOP, b. 1906, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d. March 30,
1995, Duffield, Va.(Scott County).
  xi. HENRY BISHOP, b. 1908; d. 1908.
  
  xii. ISAAC CLAUDE BISHOP, b. 1908, Virginia; d. Bef. 1995.
  
  xiii. ETTA BISHOP, b. 1911; d. 1912.
  




 75. xiv. EZRA H. BISHOP, b. 1915, Virginia; d. Bef. 1995.
 48.  ISAAC DAVID9 BISHOP (JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5,
ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born February 1874 in Duffield,
Va.(Scott County), and died in Scott County, Va..  He married (1) ETTA F.
JOHNSON.  He married (2) VICTORIA CASTLE.
  Child of ISAAC BISHOP and VICTORIA CASTLE is:
  i. HURLEY10 BISHOP.
  
  
 49.  WILLIAM JESSE9 BISHOP (LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born April 03, 1862.  
He married SALLIE UNKNOWN.
  Child of WILLIAM BISHOP and SALLIE UNKNOWN is:
  i. POLLY10 BISHOP, b. December 1884.
  
  
 50.  POLLY ANN9 FORD (LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She married WILLIAM
GRIFFIN.
  Children of POLLY FORD and WILLIAM GRIFFIN are:
  i. CHARLIE GRIFFIN10 GRIFFIN, b. May 1874.
  
  ii. HENRY GRIFFIN, b. March 1886.
  
  iii. SUSAN GRIFFIN, b. January 1889.
  
  iv. SALLIE GRIFFIN, b. February 1891.
  
  v. STEVE GRIFFIN, b. June 1895.
  
  
 51.  AMANDA JANE9 FORD (LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING,
THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1865 in Scott
County, Va., and died December 19, 1931 in Scott County, Va..  She married (1)
DANIEL J. WALKER November 15, 1881 in Scott County, Va..  She married (2) HAROLD
ST. CLAIR 1900.  She married (3) CHARLIE GOOD Aft. 1910 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of AMANDA FORD and DANIEL WALKER are:
 76. i. LE DORA10 WALKER, b. November 15, 1882, Scott County, Va.; d. January
19, 1953, Scott County, Va..
  ii. SALLIE WALKER, b. Abt. 1883, Scott County, Va.; d. August 20, 1891, Scott
County, Va..
  
  iii. LAURA A. WALKER, b. 1885, Scott County, Va.; d. January 09, 1888.
  
 77. iv. ROSA LEE WALKER, b. June 10, 1886, Scott County, Va.; d. July 06, 1973,
Scott County, Va..
 78. v. WILLIAM LEE WALKER, b. March 10, 1889, Scott County, Va.; d. September
16, 1941, Sullivan County, Tn..
  Children of AMANDA FORD and HAROLD ST. CLAIR are:
  vi. MAY10 ST. CLAIR,  m. (1) ELLIS LUNDY; m. (2) JOHN WOLFE.
  
  vii. HAROLD ST. CLAIR
  




 52.  WILLIAM PATTON9 FORD ,JR. (LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born January
18, 1874 in Scott County, Va., and died January 06, 1951 in Scott County, Va..  
He married (1) ELIZABETH CARTER October 08, 1896 in Scott County, Va..  He
married (2) BETTY RUSSELL 1897.
  Children of WILLIAM FORD and BETTY RUSSELL are:
 79. i. BONNIE10 FORD.
 80. ii. SYDNEY FORD.
 81. iii. WILLY RAY FORD, b. Scott County, Va..
 82. iv. EMMA FORD.
  v. T. M. FORD, m. ANN WAMPLER.
  
  vi. STELLA FORD, m. TOMMY GILREATH.
  
 83. vii. JAMES DUDLEY FORD, b. January 28, 1902, Scott County, Va.; d. March
21, 1976, Sullivan County, Tn..
 84. viii. LELA FORD, b. 1904, Scott County, Va.; d. Sullivan County, Tn..
 85. ix. ELLIS FORD,b. Scott County, Va..
 86. x. HOLLY FORD.
  
  



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 18, 2009, 11:17:01 am
Generation No. 10

  



 53.  MILAM10 ANDERSON (MINERVA9 BAKER, WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES
CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
Abt. 1892.  He married LILLIE MILES, daughter of ROBERT MILES and MARY NOE.
  Children of MILAM ANDERSON and LILLIE MILES are:
  i. OLA11 ANDERSON,  m. GREER.
  
  ii. LOYD ANDERSON
  
  iii. WARD ANDERSON
  
  
 54.  GEORGE10 BELCHER (CAROLINE9 BAKER, WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES
CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
1888, and died Unknown.  He married NANCY LACKIE.
  Children of GEORGE BELCHER and NANCY LACKIE are:
  i. DELMER11 BELCHER, m. MILDRED KINSLER
  
  ii. FRED HUGHES BELCHER, b Stonega, Virginia.
  
  iii. TYLER BELCHER.
  
  iv. MARY BELCHER.
  
  v. SOPHIA BELCHER, m. COY SHELTON, Wise County, Virginia.
  
  vi. VERNON BELCHER.
  
   55.  LILY10 BELCHER (CAROLINE9 BAKER, WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES
CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
1889, and died Unknown in Stonega, Va..  She married ORVILLE NICHOLS.
  Children of LILY BELCHER and ORVILLE NICHOLS are:
  i. NAN11 NICHOLS, m. DEWEY GALLOWAY, Wise County, Virginia.
  
  ii. MAY NICHOLS, m. EARL WHISTLEHUNT, Wise County, Virginia.
  
  iii. CARRIE NICHOLS, m. IRVING GALLOWAY.
  
  
 56.  MARY DOVIE10 BELCHER (CAROLINE9 BAKER, WALLEN W.8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES
CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
January 28, 1902 in Sneedsville, Tennessee, and died December 02, 1986 in
Dayton, Ohio.  She married (1) FRED SMITH December 23, 1916 in Wise County,
Virginia, son of WILLIAM SMITH and ELIZABETH ELY.  She married (2) TONEY LEE
GIBSON May 14, 1927 in Lee County, Va., son of JOHN GIBSON and OLIVIA MILES.
  
  
 Notes for TONEY LEE GIBSON:
Toney Lee Gibson and Marlin Dee Gibson were identical twins but celebrated their
birthdays on different dates.  Marlin found out that their birthday was Feb. 6,
1900 instead of March 10, 1899.  Toney refused to change his birthdate and
celebrated his birhday on March 10th.  His tombstone reads March 10, 1899 as his
date of birth.Toney is buried in Bear Creek Cemetery, Dayton, Ohio.
  Children of MARY BELCHER and FRED SMITH are:
  i. WALTER EDGAR11 SMITH, b. September 17, 1917, Artemus, Kentucky; d. May 06,
1991, Big Stone Gap, Virginia; m. (1) BERTHA CHRISTIAN, August 09, 1938, Wise
County, Virginia; m. (2) BETTY JO TRENT, Aft. 1950.
Notes for WALTER EDGAR SMITH:
Walter Edgar is buried in Powell Valley Memorial Gardens, Big Stone Gap, Va.
  ii. JAMES LITTEN SMITH, b. Linden, Virginia; m. THELMA ACKERS,  Kentucky.
  
  iii. ROXIE SMITH, b.  Stonega, Va.; m. CLINT MABE , JR.,  Gate City, Virginia.

Notes for CLINT MABE , JR.:
Clint Mabe, Jr. is buried in Powell Valley Memorial Gardens in Big Stone Gap,
VA.
  iv. MAXEY SMITH, b.  Exeter, Virginia(Wise County); m. (1) WALTER TOMLINSON,  
Wise County, Virginia; m. (2) CONLEY W. LAWSON
Notes for CONLEY W. LAWSON:
Conley William Lawson is buried in Bear Creek Cemetery, Dayton, Ohio.
  
  Children of MARY BELCHER and TONEY GIBSON are:
  v. ETHEL CHRISTINE11 GIBSON, b. April 18, 1930, Stonega, Va.; d. September 03,
1997, Norton, Virginia; m. ARVIL MATTHEW ADDISON, December 03, 1949, Harlan,
Kentucky.
Notes for ETHEL CHRISTINE GIBSON:
Christine was buried in Laurel Grove Cemetery, Norton, Virginia.
Notes for ARVIL MATTHEW ADDISON:
Arvil was buried in Laurel Grove Cemetery, Norton, Virginia.
  vi. TRANSIS EVELYN GIBSON, b.  Stonega, Va..
  
  vii. FRED JUNIOR GIBSON, b. November 19, 1935, Stonega, Va.; d. July 27, 1995,
Dayton, Ohio; m. FAYE JANE LEVY,  Dayton, Ohio.
  
 
 viii. NAVADA IRENE GIBSON, b.  Stonega, Va.; m. JAMES RANDOLPH HEFLIN,
Washington, D.C..
  
  
  
 57.  WILLIAM JESS10 BAKER (ISAAC9, JOHN8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6,
JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born February
19, 1889, and died December 30, 1968 in Smyth County, Va..  He married NANCY
ELIZABETH ROGERS.
  Child of WILLIAM BAKER and NANCY ROGERS is:
  i. ELEANORA11 BAKER, b. June 16, 1924; m. WALTER STAPLETON, May 25, 1940.
  
  
 58.  BILL JAY10 BAKER (JOHN9, NOAH8, SUSANNAH7 WALLEN, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5,
ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born May 16, 1915 in
Tensley, Ky.(Bell County), and died October 05, 1984.  He met (1) RUBY MAE MILLS
HUBBARD.  He met (2) HILIE MILLER.  He married (3) TRESSIE GRAY.
  Child of BILL BAKER and RUBY HUBBARD is:
  i. DORCIL11 BAKER, b.  Kentucky; m. (3) ALEX MAIESE ALBAIR; m. WILLIAM OKELY
HARRISON; m.  WILLIAM LOGAN SHEHAN.
  
  
  Children of BILL BAKER and HILIE MILLER are:
  ii. JERRY11 BAKER  m. CINDY KAWALSKIE.
  
  iii. GENE AUTRY BAKER, b. February 12, 1941; d. April 22, 1996; m. DEWANA
MYER.
  
  
 59.  ELIZA10 WALLEN (JOHN W.9, JAMES8, JOHN J.7, JAMES CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4
WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1879 in Lee County,
Virginia.  She married (1) HICKSON.  She married (2) JOHN C. WHITE 1900 in Wise
County, Virginia.
  Child of ELIZA WALLEN and JOHN WHITE is:
  i. BARNEY11 WHITE.
  
  
 60.  CHARLES WALLEN10 JR. (CHARLES9 WALLEN, ALFRED8, JAMES F.7, JAMES CARR6,
JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  He married
ARLENE FLAMME
  Children of CHARLES JR. and ARLENE FLAMME are:
  i. BOB11 WALLEN
  
  ii. MIKE WALLEN
  
  iii. TON WALLEN
  
  
 61.  JOSEPH CALLOWAY10 WALLEN (RUFUS ISAAC9, JOSEPH B.8, WILLIAM J.7, JAMES
CARR6, JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born  
in Hancock County, Tn..  He married SIDNEY ANDERSON
  Child of JOSEPH WALLEN and SIDNEY ANDERSON is:
  i. JOSEPH11 WALLEN.
  
  
 

62.  OVAL JOE10 WALLEN (WILLIAM HENRY9, JOSEPH B.8, WILLIAM J.7, JAMES CARR6,
JOSEPH5, ELISHA4 WALLING, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1911, and
died 1967.  He married JUANITA PRICE.
  
  
  Children of OVAL WALLEN and JUANITA PRICE are:
  i. JAY MICHAEL11 WALLEN
  
  ii. JOE E. WALLEN,  m. CYNTHIA JOY ANDERSON
Notes for JOE E. WALLEN:
Joe Wallen is a construction superintendent
  
 63.  JOSEPH EARL10 BISHOP (JAMES CONLEY9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  He married
LUCILLE TRENT.
  Child of JOSEPH BISHOP and LUCILLE TRENT is:
  i. MELANE11 BISHOP.
  
  
 64.  WINIFRED HELEN10 BISHOP (JAMES CONLEY9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She
married DEWARD BELMONT MILLER , son of GEORGE MILLER and LENDY HALL.
  Children of WINIFRED BISHOP and DEWARD MILLER are:
  i. LINDA SHIRLEY11 MILLER, m. GLENN EDWARD WELLS
  ii. MARY NANCY MILLER,  m. (1) JAMES MORELOCK; m. (2) PAUL SURRETT,  m. (3)
DONALD COX,  m. (4) EUGENE COLLINS
  
  iii. RANDY DOUGLAS MILLER,  m. CAROL JEAN MEADE
  
  
 65.  LAURA ALICE10 BAILIE (SARAH JANE9 BISHOP, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
May 1881 in Virginia.  She married JAMES LILBURN HILL September 12, 1904 in
Scott County, Va..
  Children of LAURA BAILIE and JAMES HILL are:
  i. RAYMOND11 HILL
  
  ii. EMMA JANE HILL
  
  iii. EDGAR H. HILL
  
  iv. BEN TILSON HILL, b. June 02, 1911, Scott County, Va.; d. 1964; m.
ELIZABETH TAYLOR, September 14, 1930, Scott County, Va..
  
  v. ALBERT CLYDE HILL, b. September 13, 1913, Virginia; d. Abt. 1973; m.
CYNTHIA NEELEY.
  
  vi. BONNIE R. HILL, b. June 11, 1916, Duffield, Va.(Scott County); d. November
1997, Coeburn, Va.; m. LACY AUSTIN, October 21, 1939, Scott County, Va..
  
  vii. ORBEN WRIGHT HILL, b. March 16, 1919, Virginia; d. 1996, Baltimore,
Maryland; m. ELOISE MCCONNELL.
  
  viii. MESBY FRANK HILL, b. May 19, 1921, Duffield,  Virginia; d. June 13,
1998, Bloomington, Indiana; m. ELIZABETH IRENE COSBY, March 31, 1955.
  
  
ix. LOU DEMI HILL
  
  
 66.  MAGGIE ALICE10 BISHOP (JOHN SOLOMON9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born November
22, 1877 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died February 04, 1944.  She
married DAVID HENRY DURHAM May 04, 1900.
  Children of MAGGIE BISHOP and DAVID DURHAM are:
  i. ADDIE MARIE11 DURHAM
  ii. GLENNA GERTRUDE DURHAM
  
  iii. SUDIE MAE DURHAM
  
  iv. LESLIE LURAL DURHAM
  
  
 67.  DORA BELLE10 BISHOP (JOHN SOLOMON9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born February
19, 1879 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died April 17, 1958.  She married
HUGH STANLEY GOBBLE October 04, 1900.
  Children of DORA BISHOP and HUGH GOBBLE are:
  i. OMAR CLYDE11 GOBBLE, d. 1924, Virginia.
  
  ii. CLARENCE EUGENE GOBBLE, m. BESSIE KING.
  
  iii. JOHN GLADSTONE GOBBLE, m. (1) IRENE CLEEK; m. (2) BEULAH KELLY.
  
  
 68.  JOHN PROCTOR10 BISHOP (JOHN SOLOMON9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born March
07, 1894 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died October 28, 1970 in Pineville,
Kentucky.  He married BESSIE ELLEN NAPIER.
  Children of JOHN BISHOP and BESSIE NAPIER are:
  i. MARY VIRGINIA11 BISHOP, m. ALAN LEWIS.
  
  ii. JOHN PROCTOR BISHOP , JR., b. Middlesboro, Ky.; m. MAURINA MARSHALL.
  
  iii. CHARLES MASBY BISHOP, b.  Pineville, Kentucky; m. SANDRA JEANNE WILSON
  
  iv. BARBARA ELLEN BISHOP,  m. ORVILLE BRACKETT.
  
  
 69.  OMAR GARRETT10 BISHOP (JOHN SOLOMON9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born April
20, 1896 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died October 09, 1983 in Fort
Pierce, Florida.  He married (1) RUTH KURTZ ELLIS December 04, 1920 in Clinton,
Ohio.  He married (2) LORENA BAKER January 01, 1971 in Fort Pierce, Florida.
  Children of OMAR BISHOP and RUTH ELLIS are:
  i. ELOISE ELIZABETH11 BISHOP, b. Harlan, Kentucky.
  
  ii. JANET CAROLYN BISHOP, b.  Massillon, Ohio; m. JOHN WILLIAM THESING



 70.  JOSIE LILLIAN10 BISHOP (JOHN SOLOMON9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born October
14, 1900 in Duffield, Va.(Scott County).  She married HOP P. BLEDSOE December
28, 1924.
  Children of JOSIE BISHOP and HOP BLEDSOE are:
  i. GLENN CARL11 BLEDSOE
  
  ii. LENA HAZEL BLEDSOE  m. DAN GIBSON.
  
  iii. NORMA JEAN BLEDSOE  m. DICK MOORE.
  
  iv. WILMA GERALDINE BLEDSOE,  m. IRA BROADWATER.
  
  
 71.  WILLIAM HARRISON10 BISHOP (ELIJAH MARTIN9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
January 1889 in Scott County, Va., and died 1966.  He married CORA MILLER
September 30, 1912 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of WILLIAM BISHOP and CORA MILLER are:
  i. MADGE G.11 BISHOP,  Scott County, Va.; m. HERBERT L. TAYLOR
  
  ii. AUDIE H. BISHOP, b. Scott County, Va..
  
  iii. CARL E. A. BISHOP, b. Scott County, Va.; m. THERESA FLEENOR,  Scott
County, Va..
  
  iv. OSCAR D. BISHOP, b.  Scott County, Va.; m. MARIE BARRETT, Sullivan County,
Tn..
  
  v. LOUETTA BISHOP, b. Scott County, Va..
  
  vi. PAULENE BISHOP, b. Scott County, Va..
  
  vii. MAUDE BISHOP, b.  Scott County, Va.; m. BROADUS CECIL GILLENWATER
  viii. ORA BISHOP
  
 72.  MAGGIE ALICE10 BISHOP (ELIJAH MARTIN9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1897 in
Scott County, Va., and died July 05, 1974.  She married CAMPBELL PATTON HAMMONDS
December 20, 1919 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of MAGGIE BISHOP and CAMPBELL HAMMONDS are:
  i. LINDELL IZETTA11 HAMMONDS, b.  Scott County, Va.; m. EDWARD COUNTS
  
  ii. RALPH MARTIN HAMMONDS, b. September 27, 1925, Scott County, Va.; d.
January 10, 1945.
  
  
 73.  VENUS NANCY10 BISHOP (ELIJAH MARTIN9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1899 in
Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died April 24, 1994 in Miami, Florida.  She
married JAMES CLARK LANE December 12, 1920 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of VENUS BISHOP and JAMES LANE are:
  i. VIVIAN11 LANE, b. Abt. 1920; d. Bef. 1994; m. UNKNOWN HARRISON.
  
  ii. BENNY LANE  m. UNKNOWN MURRAY.
  
 
 iii. MARCETTA LANE, m. UNKNOWN MCCURRY.
  
  
 74.  NOBLE CONLEY10 BISHOP (ELIJAH MARTIN9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1906 in
Duffield, Va.(Scott County), and died March 30, 1995 in Duffield, Va.(Scott
County).  He married LUCILLE R. PETERSON April 21, 1931 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of NOBLE BISHOP and LUCILLE PETERSON are:
  i. LETTA11 BISHOP, m. HAROLD KERN.
  
  ii. NELL BISHOP, m. TANKERSLEY.
  
  iii. FRED BISHOP, m. EMOGENE UNKNOWN.
  
  iv. KYLE BISHOP.
  
  v. WAYNE BISHOP.
  
  vi. LARRY BISHOP.
  
  vii. RONALD BISHOP.
  
  viii. BOYD BISHOP.
  
  
 75.  EZRA H.10 BISHOP (ELIJAH MARTIN9, JOSEPH8, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born 1915 in
Virginia, and died Bef. 1995.  He married EDNA MAY KAYLOR.
  Child of EZRA BISHOP and EDNA KAYLOR is:
  i. DAVID11 BISHOP.
  
  
 76.  LE DORA10 WALKER (AMANDA JANE9 FORD, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
November 15, 1882 in Scott County, Va., and died January 19, 1953 in Scott
County, Va..  She married SIMON ROBERTS October 14, 1899 in Scott County, Va..
  Children of LE WALKER and SIMON ROBERTS are:
  i. JAY11 ROBERTS, b.  Wise County, Va.; m. LENA BANKS.
  
  ii. ROBERT DEWEY ROBERTS,  Wise County, Va.; m. UNKNOWN GETTIE.
  
  iii. ROSA ROBERTS, b. 1907, Wise County, Va.; d. January 29, 1955; m. CARL
BANKS.
  
  iv. ORA ROBERTS,  Wise County, Va.; m. EDITH CROCKETT.
  
  
 77.  ROSA LEE10 WALKER (AMANDA JANE9 FORD, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
June 10, 1886 in Scott County, Va., and died July 06, 1973 in Scott County, Va..
 She married HENRY HARMON MILLER December 10, 1903 in Scott County, Va., son of
FREDRICK MILLER and ETHEL EDWARDS.
  Children of ROSA WALKER and HENRY MILLER are:
  i. KEMP DAVIDSON11 MILLER
  
 

 ii. ADA LITTON MILLER
  
  iii. RUFUS MILLER
  
  iv. WILLIAM DENVER MILLER
  
  v. PEARL ESTELLE MILLER, b. September 14, 1914, Clinchport, Va.; d. February
11, 1998, Sullivan County, Tennessee; m. ROBERT KENDALL ROBERTSON, January 30,
1939, Sullivan County, Tennessee.
  
  
 78.  WILLIAM LEE10 WALKER (AMANDA JANE9 FORD, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7
WALLEN, JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1)
was born March 10, 1889 in Scott County, Va., and died September 16, 1941 in
Sullivan County, Tn..  He married (1) FLORENCE MILLER 1909.  He married (2)
MYRTLE CORA KING 1923 in Washington County, Va..  He married (3) NELL
  Children of WILLIAM WALKER and FLORENCE MILLER are:
  i. BONNIE11 WALKER
  
  ii. CLYDE WALKER
  iii. LILIAN BELL WALKER
  
  iv. LUCILLE WALKER
  v. HOMER WALKER
  
  Children of WILLIAM WALKER and MYRTLE KING are:
  vi. JOHN CHARLES11 WALKER, b. July 24, 1924, Wise County, Va.; d. 1994,
Michigan; m. MYRNA JANELLA ROBERTS.
  
  vii. DELLA ESTELLE WALKER, b. Wise County, Va.; m. CHARLES JACKSON SNOW.
  
  
 79.  BONNIE10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She married (1)
LEONARD WHITED.  She married (2) FRED MCCONNELL.
  Child of BONNIE FORD and LEONARD WHITED is:
  i. BETTY JANE11 WHITED, m. PAT QUILLEN.
  
  
 80.  SYDNEY10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She married
HIRAM FRAZIER.
  Children of SYDNEY FORD and HIRAM FRAZIER are:
  i. JUNE11 FRAZIER.
  
  ii. DON FRAZIER.
  
  
 81.  WILLY RAY10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
in Scott County, Va..  He married HELEN HALL.
  Child of WILLY FORD and HELEN HALL is:
  i. RAY11 FORD.


82.  EMMA10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She married
CLYDE WATTS.
  Children of EMMA FORD and CLYDE WATTS are:
  i. JAMES11 WATTS.
  
  ii. SHIRLEY WATTS.
  
  iii. BRENDA WATTS.
  
  iv. FREDALYN WATTS.
  
  v. WAYNE WATTS.
  
  vi. SANDRA WATTS.
  
  
 83.  JAMES DUDLEY10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN,
JOSEPH6 WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born
January 28, 1902 in Scott County, Va., and died March 21, 1976 in Sullivan
County, Tn..  He married (1) MILDRED CANSADA STACY.  He married (2) LOU PEARSON.

  Children of JAMES FORD and MILDRED STACY are:
  i. JACKIE11 FORD.
  
  ii. RALPH HORTON FORD, b. Scott County, Va.; m. FRANCES SMITH.
  
  iii. DOROTHY STELLA FORD, b. Scott County, Va..
  
  iv. MADELINE EUNICE FORD, b. November 13, 1924, Imboden, Va.(Wise County); d.
August 20, 1984, Washington County, Tn..
  
  
 84.  LELA10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born in Scott
County, Va., and died in Sullivan County, Tn..  She married BOB GOOD.
  Children of LELA FORD and BOB GOOD are:
  i. NADINE11 GOOD.
  
  ii. O. M. GOOD.
  
  iii. CHARLES GOOD.
  
  iv. HARRY GOOD.
  
  
 85.  ELLIS10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1) was born in Scott
County, Va..  He married LILLY BELLE STACY.
  Children of ELLIS FORD and LILLY STACY are:
  i. DERYL11 FORD.
  
  ii. GERALDINE FORD.
  
  iii. BOBBIE FORD.
  
  
iv. CLARA LEE FORD.
  
  v. GHENGIS HOGAN FORD.
  
  vi. WALLY PAT FORD.
  
  
 86.  HOLLY10 FORD (WILLIAM PATTON9, LOUISA8 MILLER, ELIZABETH7 WALLEN, JOSEPH6
WALLING, THOMAS5, ELISHA4, THOMAS3 WALLEN II, THOMAS2, RALPH1).  She met ELLIE
HALL.
  Children of HOLLY FORD and ELLIE HALL are:
  i. BRUCE11 FORD.
  
  ii. FAY FORD.
  
  
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 18, 2009, 02:17:58 pm
There are some aspects of this thread that disturb me. Notice this board is about plastic shamans. It's not to go after any and all wannabes, since there are millions of them. That would largely be a waste of time. We concentrate on those that can be shown to be harming people.

This isn't a sewerhole like the Indianz.com board, where being the most abusive jerk you can be is rewarded and poses as "freedom of speech." You're expected to be an adult, not talk like a teenager on the school playground acting tough, or Fox News.

If Keely intended to say the racist slur, that only reflects poorly upon her and undercuts her case.

Did you? We don't tolerate bigots of any kind.

I realize since this issue affects you personally, you are understandably angry. But a rant helps no one. Evidence that can't be refuted will make your case more than just getting angry.

Post your evidence and state your case, like you did in the followup email you sent me. But there's no need for personal attacks. I thought about deletting your attack on Nikki, but decided to leave it up since the following posts wouldn't have made sense.

And most important, show evidence (if you have it) that Renz or the MS Shawnee have done any harm. Are they just a heritage group, or people kidding themselves?
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 18, 2009, 05:23:59 pm
Nikki,
If you think for one second that I am any part of any confederacy, and have no voice of my own, then you need to seek professional help... If you think I answer to any confederacy then you need to seek professional help, if you think that any confederacy has any say over what I do, what I think, or how I do it, then you need to seek professional help. The only persons I answer to is my tribal Elders, and they are NOT Seneca nor are they part of the confederacy. So get over yourself, this confederacy you belong to has no control over me, or my people... they are not god.
Now, for this "

Keely, it's apparent that the person who needs to seek professional help is you , who carries on these hateful rants. You have gone off the deep end. And no I have not fallen out of tree, it's called consultation and hearing what others have to have say about this subject within the Six Nations Confederacy who have met Walter and are supporting him. And call our Confederacy down like this, will only get you into a lot trouble as your emails have been forwarded onto those who will take action to put a stop to this. As I suggested and you seem not to take suggestions too well, take this up with Renz directly and not on the internet. As it is now appearing that you are trying to push a land claim in an area that the Shawnee have no territorial or legitimate rights of claim to. If you knew anything about the teachings of Grandmother Moon, you would know that no one can own the land. Therefore all of these land claims are wrong, that nations outside of the Six Nations Confederacy do not have a say, and that the Six Nations Confederacy does have legitimate say and leadership over, you do fall within that jurisdiction, and therefore, don't have a say over any matters or goings on within the area of jurisdiction of the Six Nations Confederacy. The more you post here, the more rope you will be giving yourself with us.


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


From: renzsilver@hotmail.com
To: kdenning@cox.net
Subject: RE: My decent of Blood
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:38:25 -0400

Keely,
I never said that they offered me a card. I said I told them not to give me one.
Andrew and Darrel are wonderful people. And I am not using there name in a bad way at all. And Your on a path that has caused troubles for the Shawnee since 1800's. The Longtail land is under the Absentee Shawnee Tribe control.
I am not out to make fame or money from my ancestory.
And I did not say your family was Wallen. That was the name that was used here to hide the family. There is an article in the Toledo Blade. That a reporter came to the Wallen Cabin knowing that William was a Shawnee Chief. They would not open the door to speak with the reporter.
Your a researcher. Lets see if you can find that.
I have spent most of my life to benefit others. Not to harm people.
 
I wish you well. And take care.
Walter
 



You dont get it do you Nikki. I am not of the six confederated nations, they have no say over me, my family or my tribe. Elders of my tribe has been following this issue and think it is quite funny that you feel the six nations has some kind of power over all that is... and they dont. So if you want the six nations to come and get me, tell them to bring it on! We are waiting.... and waiting... and waiting....

Now you made a choice to post all this stuff on the Wallen family, as you copied and pasted someone elses research and did not post a link nor give the author credit, and make no doubt that I do believe Walter is from the Wallens, his mother's maiden name is Wallen, and with Walters supposed research, his mom is a full blood...

Now lets argue Walter, and his claims, not someone elses genealogy work, this issue is about Walter.

Here is the link to Walter's claims:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/print.cgi?wallen::983.html

Here is what that site reads:
Posted By: WALTER RENZ
 Email: 
 Subject: Re: Arkansas and Ohio Wallens
 Post Date: February 17, 2008 at 22:25:44
 Message URL: http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/983.html
 Forum: Wallen Family Genealogy Forum
 Forum URL: http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/


 William Henry Wallen /Abraham Longtail Born 1844 died 1912 from falling out of hay mouh on to pile of bricks. Packed with sand bags died from complications.
1st wife Sarah Baker
childern
Luther Wallen
Elizabeth Wallen

2nd Wife Elizabeth Edwards/Eliza Tignor Both are barried in Belmore,Ohio east Grave yard.


Sarah J. Wallen Shawnee full blood born 6/7/1870-died 6/13/1913 married to a Richard Johnson

Mary Edith Wallen Shawnee full blood born 7/31/1871 married 11-22-1887 Charles Frayer

Martha J. Wallen Shawnee full blood born 8/1/1872 died 7/24/1901 married to Hampton Hurd 2nd husband Thomas Johnson

Cora Dell Wallen Shawnee full blood born 2/19/1873 died 9/31/1904 married 7-26-1893 Frank Baker

Charles Chester Wallen Shawnee full blood born 2/19/1873-died 4/24/1873 twin to Cora Dell Wallen

Thomas Franklin Wallen Shawnee full blood born 4/22/1874-died 4/4/1898 teacher and writer life farming

Melinda Wallen Shawnee full blood born 6/6/1875-died 3/22/1936 married to Burdine D. Fisher

William Silas Wallen (AKA William Henry) Will Longtail Shawnee full blood born 1/15/1876 married to Pearl Stafforf 4/26/1902 spent time publishing the books of those that wrote them.

John Walter Wallen (Henry Longtail) Shawnee full blood Chief born 10/23/1877 died 1/2/1920 Married to Nina Pearl Foster(AOHMX-She is wise) Sarah Biggs on 12/14/1898c teacher, doctor, and hay and grain sales
Children
Isaac Leland Wallen (Isaac Longtail) Shawnee full blood Chief born 11/7/1903 died 9/15/1980 married to a Lovie May (Mae) Mapes (LOVE OF MAY) Shawnee full blood born 5/10/1903 died 56/1987
Children
Eldo Dwight Wallen /Fox Longtail Shawnee full blood Sub Chief born 12/7/1925 died 7/19/2007

Lawrence Leland Wallen /Sparrow Longtail Shawnee full blood born 3/29/1930 died 6/28/2007

Virginia Carol Wallen /Mother Buffalo Longtail Shawnee full blood born 7/19/1940 married to Arnold Renz in 10/7/1956

 


 
Now, lets look at the first person, Abraham Longtail aka Jake, Walter claims that he was born 1844 and died in 1912 after falling onto a pile of bricks...
Now turn your attention to Abrahams son, Henry, he claims Henry born 1877 died 1920....  and while we are doing this, remember that Walter claims this family left the Shawnee tribe, to start their "own tribe" called the Morning Star Shawnee. What facts has Walter produced for these claims? None... not one claim is documented.

Other researchers have documented this exact Wallen line, with one exception, they do not make the claim that this family is Indian, the reality of the situation is that this Wallen line is exact, except for the claims that they are the Longtail family....

Now I produce to you several links, of which you can go to, that are documentations of the Abraham Longtail family, the REAL family.
From the University of Oklahoma, Henry Longtail's own words of his family that is on the collection held at OU

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcripts/T-360-2.pdf

I cannot copy and paste this into the window, it is in PDF format... but if you read this, you will see it is a interview of Henry Longtail dated December 26, 1968, now remember, Walter claims Henry died in 1920.... I am sure that John Walter Wallen was born in 1877 and died in 1920, but he is not Henry Longtail... here is Henry Longtail's Social Security Death Index information

Name: Henry Longtail
SSN: 447-18-0879 
Last Residence: 74301  Vinita, Craig, Oklahoma, United States of America
Born: 24 May 1904
Last Benefit: 74301  Vinita, Craig, Oklahoma, United States of America
Died: Jan 1985
State (Year) SSN issued: Oklahoma (Before 1951)

Abraham Longtail was married once, his wife was Amanda they had 12 children. Most are buried in the Longtail Cemetery, that is where Abraham and Amanda are both buried at, this refutes Walters claim that Abraham aka Jake is buried in Ohio. The cemetery is in the link I provided from the OU Collections.
You will also be able to read that Abraham aka Jake, got sick and died, I am sure William Henry Wallen did fall onto a pile of bricks in 1912, died and is buried in Ohio, but not Jake, he did not die until 1941, and he is burried in Longtail Cemetery in Oklahoma.

My family is in the 1857 Shawnee Census in Kansas, Starting with John Longtail age 45, his wife Elizabeth age 40, and their children Martha age 18, Mary age 12, Sarah age 10, Stephen age 8, Anna age 4, Jane age 3 and Abraham age 15 months.

Someone may comment that Jake's headstone on his grave reads he was born in 1847, but the headstone is old and was read wrong on the date of birth because we have the 1857 Kansas census to correct the time when he was born. This is not a uncommon mistake when in these old cemeteries.

 Here is a link to the 1857 but you must be a member of Ancestry to view these records:
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1088&iid=ks1856_1-0627&fn=James&ln=Longtail&st=r&ssrc=&pid=7576979

Now, there are other records in the OU collection that refers to the Longtail family:

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=516&sID=0

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=533&sID=0

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=591&sID=0

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=426&sID=0

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=707&sID=0

http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/duke/transcript.asp?tID=614&sID=0

The only thing that is true about the Longtail family that Walter wrote, is that they are full blood Shawnees.

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

And my family is a victim here, our ancestors are not being allowed to rest in peace, this is a horrible thing to do to anyones ancestor...

Special attention Nikki... I was able to find one person with the name of Longtail in WWI records from Wisconsin, he is listed in the draft records as Indian, but he is NOT a member of my family... his tribe is not listed, but we do not know who he is...




Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 19, 2009, 03:28:49 am
educatedindian
Quote
Notice this board is about plastic shamans. It's not to go after any and all wannabes, since there are millions of them. That would largely be a waste of time. We concentrate on those that can be shown to be harming people.

I guess if you haven't personally had a bad experience with people who aren't who they claim, these folks may seem nothing more than foolish, but from what i have seen , people making false claims do hurt people.

I don't know the person this thread is discussing, but generally speaking, if  people know the truth and are living a lie,  anyone who threatens to expose the truth will be seen as an enemy and undermined and discredited. ( Such as someone who really is from the tribe that is being falsly claimed ) Whether or not anyone is seriously hurt all depends on the situation. Vulnerable people can be really seriously impacted by what these people can do to protect their NDN identity from being exposed as a lie.

This discrediting and undermining can happen to individuals or tribal authorities who do not support these peoples imagined identities.

I don't think all the people who wrongly claim an Indian identity are liars or bad people. Sometimes they got told this by trusted family members who got a story mixed up. I think it often happened there was a relative by marriage somewhere back there who gets wrongly understood to be an ancestor . Sometimes these stories seem to have got started with earlier versions of todays wannabes - like Grey Owl . Sometimes it seems little children were told they were Indian because it was safer than being identified as mulatto or an illegal immigrant of color. And lately it seems a lot of people are rewriting their family histories just because they wannabe Indian . When false genealogical information gets posted on line,  hundreds of related people then get the information they are really Native people when this just isn't true. If this isn't corrected some of these people will pass this on to their children and grandchildren. As these false genealogies and histories often get circulated with stories of how these people have been denied their rights as NDN people, these people do create a lot of problems. 

However these stories and false identities get started , when people who believe this have to face the truth - especially if they or their parents or grandparents have been accepted into a Native community that gave them the benifit of the doubt , or in some way this has become an important part of their identity , that also can be totally devastating. ( and I have seen that happen )

Lies are funny things in that they don't always hurt people right away , and sometimes believing in a lie may even help someone over a real rough spot in their lives, but believing in the truth is always a lot safer and and stabler . So as i see it there is a very real public interest in correcting genealogical misinformation . But I agree being polite is important.  Even when people really don't deserve it. (and yeah I notice some people really don't)  Speaking the truth to someone who's identity is based in a lie is inflamatory enough . 

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but i do understand why Keeley wants to address this .  IMO incorrect genealogical information does need to be challenged, and is often the basis of a lot of the other types of cultural abuse and a false sense of being entitled to do this - which is at the bottom of much of what gets discussed here.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 19, 2009, 04:15:31 am
educatedindian

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but i do understand why Keeley wants to address this .  IMO incorrect genealogical information does need to be challenged, and is often the basis of a lot of the other types of cultural abuse and a false sense of being entitled to do this - which is at the bottom of much of what gets discussed here.

   I have heard that Keely herself is not who she has led people to believe on line. Stayed tuned for more information on who Keely is. Keely, when you point a finger of judgement at someone, there are always 3 fingers pointing back at you. By the judgement that you put out on Renz, the same judgement will come back at you. I certainly hope you are prepared for the backlash that is coming your way. I tried to warn you , and you have refused to listen. Therefore I do not have any sympathy for you .


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 19, 2009, 05:39:14 am
educatedindian

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but i do understand why Keeley wants to address this .  IMO incorrect genealogical information does need to be challenged, and is often the basis of a lot of the other types of cultural abuse and a false sense of being entitled to do this - which is at the bottom of much of what gets discussed here.

   I have heard that Keely herself is not who she has led people to believe on line. Stayed tuned for more information on who Keely is. Keely, when you point a finger of judgement at someone, there are always 3 fingers pointing back at you. By the judgement that you put out on Renz, the same judgement will come back at you. I certainly hope you are prepared for the backlash that is coming your way. I tried to warn you , and you have refused to listen. Therefore I do not have any sympathy for you .


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Good grief Nikki... I dont want your sympathy! All I would like to have had is a little understanding as to why this person is causing so much pain to my family...

I find it really funny that someone would contact you with doubts about me, so let me help you out, because I am sure you are going to get some what false information about me...

My mother died in February. There are some who saved her online obituary... My real parents divorced with I was four years old, my mother re-married in the 1970's and therefore, her married name is not my maiden name. Do you understand that?

My father was murdered in Vinita, Oklahoma in 1992, his name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel. His parents were Isaac Squirrel and Ela Charley Squirrel. Isaacs mother was Anna Longtail.

My family owns Charley Cemetery where my dad, my grandparents and other family members are buried at. The cemetery carries the seal of the Shawnee tribe. All people in our cemetery are Indian. All are related except for one, a young boy who drowned, his family to poor to afford a burial ground for him and we donated a place for him to rest.

My family also owns Longtail cemetery where my family is burried as well. There are Squirrels and Charleys in the Longtail cemetery, and Squirrels in the Charley cemetery.

My grandmother, Ela, was full blood Shawnee from the Absentee Shawnee. My grandfather was a full blood from the Loyal Shawnee.

I am enrolled in a federally recognized tribe. I carry a CNO tribal enrollment card, and a CDIB card. I carry a CNO card because my tribe was adopted by them, and Bill Clinton, as one of his last acts as president, signed a separation of my tribe from the CNO, at that signing, my Uncle was tribal chairman. I did not move my membership from the CNO, I was going to, but now, due to political problems in the tribe, I am glad that I did not move my membership from the CNO.

My photograph is online... I have never hidden who I am...

My Uncle is a well known honored Elder of our tribe. He is honored by many people of many tribes. Many people on many message boards know me personally, some are related to me, and even more know my family.

So, just what would you like to know about me Nikki? What is there left to tell you?

I will tell you Nikki, when my mother passed last February, she was not sick, she was at her hair dressers getting her hair done when she was stricken down. Her death was very hard on my family.. then to read about busy bodies out there who suddenly thought they had some kind of magical information on me when they got my step dads name, they really thought they knew something.. but the joke was on them.

But Nikki, I dont have to prove myself to you, I only give you the information about my family because I really feel that you should have the correct information, lord knows, enough false information has been going around about my family.

Thank you for reading this.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 19, 2009, 12:25:00 pm
educatedindian

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic, but i do understand why Keeley wants to address this .  IMO incorrect genealogical information does need to be challenged, and is often the basis of a lot of the other types of cultural abuse and a false sense of being entitled to do this - which is at the bottom of much of what gets discussed here.

   I have heard that Keely herself is not who she has led people to believe on line. Stayed tuned for more information on who Keely is. Keely, when you point a finger of judgement at someone, there are always 3 fingers pointing back at you. By the judgement that you put out on Renz, the same judgement will come back at you. I certainly hope you are prepared for the backlash that is coming your way. I tried to warn you , and you have refused to listen. Therefore I do not have any sympathy for you .


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Good grief Nikki... I dont want your sympathy! All I would like to have had is a little understanding as to why this person is causing so much pain to my family...

I find it really funny that someone would contact you with doubts about me, so let me help you out, because I am sure you are going to get some what false information about me...

My mother died in February. There are some who saved her online obituary... My real parents divorced with I was four years old, my mother re-married in the 1970's and therefore, her married name is not my maiden name. Do you understand that?

My father was murdered in Vinita, Oklahoma in 1992, his name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel. His parents were Isaac Squirrel and Ela Charley Squirrel. Isaacs mother was Anna Longtail.

My family owns Charley Cemetery where my dad, my grandparents and other family members are buried at. The cemetery carries the seal of the Shawnee tribe. All people in our cemetery are Indian. All are related except for one, a young boy who drowned, his family to poor to afford a burial ground for him and we donated a place for him to rest.

My family also owns Longtail cemetery where my family is burried as well. There are Squirrels and Charleys in the Longtail cemetery, and Squirrels in the Charley cemetery.

My grandmother, Ela, was full blood Shawnee from the Absentee Shawnee. My grandfather was a full blood from the Loyal Shawnee.

I am enrolled in a federally recognized tribe. I carry a CNO tribal enrollment card, and a CDIB card. I carry a CNO card because my tribe was adopted by them, and Bill Clinton, as one of his last acts as president, signed a separation of my tribe from the CNO, at that signing, my Uncle was tribal chairman. I did not move my membership from the CNO, I was going to, but now, due to political problems in the tribe, I am glad that I did not move my membership from the CNO.

My photograph is online... I have never hidden who I am...

My Uncle is a well known honored Elder of our tribe. He is honored by many people of many tribes. Many people on many message boards know me personally, some are related to me, and even more know my family.

So, just what would you like to know about me Nikki? What is there left to tell you?

I will tell you Nikki, when my mother passed last February, she was not sick, she was at her hair dressers getting her hair done when she was stricken down. Her death was very hard on my family.. then to read about busy bodies out there who suddenly thought they had some kind of magical information on me when they got my step dads name, they really thought they knew something.. but the joke was on them.

But Nikki, I dont have to prove myself to you, I only give you the information about my family because I really feel that you should have the correct information, lord knows, enough false information has been going around about my family.

Thank you for reading this.



Keely says she is Shawnee all her life but this this is what she says in 2002:

Keely Squirrel-Denning:
Enrolled Cherokee Nation, Oklahoma
 
 

An American Indian's View of 'Thanksgiving'
"Some people view 'thanksgiving'
as a white holiday..but it's not."
Guest column by Keely Denning
NAIIP News Path ~ Tuesday, November 4, 2002
Copyright © K.Denning
All Rights Reserved
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people may view "thanksgiving" as a white people holiday.. but its not. It is
saddened that the holiday has been twisted with the Indian/Pilgrim story... and it is
even sadder that people use this holiday as a protest to Columbus coming here.. lets
face it, Columbus was not at the "first" thanksgiving dinner... And lets use this
holiday for political protests... gee how wonderful for the true meaning of thanksgiving..
 
SO what is thanksgiving? My tribe had this celebration long before white man ever came
to this country. It is actually a celebration of harvest. No, the Indians didn't have
it every third week in November, they had the celebration when the harvest was done,
nothing was more valuable as food. Winter was hard to survive. Eating has always been
a very important thing to the Indian people, all Indians. SO these Indians had taught
those new white people how to plant, how to harvest, and how to celebrate. How were
these Indians supposed to know these white people were going to turn on them? It is not
for you nor I to speculate. But I feel it is a great insult to those tribes who
celebrate harvest, and to the memory of those who all came together on not just a day of
celebration, but a week...
I don't know about anyone else... but I am tired of seeing a VERY traditional harvest
celebration torn apart, ridiculed, nitpicked, insulted, and political protests used
against something that someone has no understanding of.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keely Squirrel-Denning, an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation, Oklahoma, can be reached by e-mail.

And she was looking around for her ancestors in 2004, when she claims she knows who she was all of her life:

 "NAIIP News Path!" | "Cherokee News Path!" |
| "the People's Paths!" |
| "People's Paths Site Index!" |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
of http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/News2002/0211/KDenning021105viewthanksgiving.htm

Charley's of Oklahoma:
October 14, 2003
My husband is a descendant of Little Charley, Mark Charley,& Eugene Charley. They are
from the Little Axe area in Oklahoma. They are Absentee Shawnee. Any connection?

Keely Denning wrote: http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/63.html

Would like to know more of your Charley's, I am the great grandaughter of Sam Charley
and Betsy Panther Charley. I believe Sam to be the son of Delaware Charley, their
daughter Eli married Isaac Squirrel who was Shawnee. kdenning@cox.net
December 13, 2004


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 19, 2009, 12:47:18 pm
Keely wrote:

"Was playing around with the stereotype... wrote that dumb dumb who has that real Cherokee headress..."
The e-mail reply I got from these people reads that they bought their headresses from the Cherokees in Oklahoma, at their outlet there... I been in Tahlequah many times, and never seen no Cherokee outlet store... been to the CNO store... but no headresses were sold there... Of course the letter that was sent to me says I "can contact the outlet" but they never send me the name of this supposed store.
Since I am a Indian artist and beader, I asked directly for enrollment numbers of the artists they claim they buy from... which is required under the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990, they refused to give me any information other than their artists are Navajo, Cherokee, Zunis and Hopi... I then informed them of the federal law of which clearly states they must give this information to anyone who asks for proof, but they still refuse.
They said that the war bonnet was "is manufactured by the Cherokees" Manufactured?? Yep, that is what they wrote... I can picture all the Indians sitting in a plant now, creating war bonnet after war bonnet LOL So I would guess it is safe to assume they are saying it was made by the Cherokees and sold by the Cherokees since they told me I should contact the Cherokee tribal council if I wanted to complain.
Here is what they wrote about the made in America remark:
"The items we sell are authenticated and most of the jewelry is signed by the artist that made it as well as the headdresses being tagged NATIVE AMERICAN MADE IN USA."
I think this person is defrauding people... I got that gut feeling from their mail to me... specially with the end stating since she was raised in New Mexico she has the most respect for Indian peoples, and tried to leave the impression that without her no Indian made items there would ever get sold...
Keely Squirrel Denning
Loyal Shawnee
Stereotype of the Month Entry
(8/18/00)
of http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype087.htm
Keely Denning, NY volunteer for nativeweb.org/
NativeWeb founding board member www.nativeweb.org/info/paper.php
In February of 1999, NativeWeb formally incorporated itself as a non-profit corporation
in the State of New York under the name NativeWeb, Inc. It established a formal board of
directors with 10 board members (Marc Becker, Shane Caraveo, David Cole,
Keely Squirrel Denning,
Peter d'Errico, Alan Mandell, Pat Paul, Tara Prindle, Karen Strom, and Carmel Vivier).
The group now included a software programmer; a computer network specialist who was a
member of a Native American tribal council; a lawyer who was a tribal judge; an
independent legislative analyst focusing on native-related issues; a law office
manager and freelance writer who works with native communities in Canada;
a novelist writing stories on native issues; and two university professors:
one a lawyer involved with Indigenous peoples' legal issues and the other a
historian focusing on Indigenous issues in Latin America. NativeWeb has always been a
labor of love, rooted in a volunteer workforce.
Posted at 8:36pm on Wed, Sep 10 2008
http://www.nativeweb.org/info/paper.php
(Was in NY in 1999; NOT in Oklahoma all her life with her "tribe"!)
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 19, 2009, 01:21:32 pm
Keely says she is Shawnee all her life but this this is what she says in 2002:

Keely Squirrel-Denning:
Enrolled Cherokee 

....And she was looking around for her ancestors in 2004, when she claims she knows who she was all of her life


This is partly what I feared, possibly degenerating into "You're not NDN enough" accusations based on flimsy pretexts or misunderstanding data.
It's not unusual for people to try to look and see what else they can find out about their ancestors, Nikki. I've known several fairly well known NDN historians, who were also enrolled and extremely well known in their communities, who've done that.

Technically this should be yet another thread on Keely, but I don't see how to disentangle them.

I see your point about fraudulent crafts, Keely.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 19, 2009, 06:54:15 pm
I don't understand Niiki's flip flop on Walter Renz; it's almost like she can't make up her mind about the man.

I think the post made in the Tecumseh Brown thread was used solely to discredit Brown. As someone else told me a few months ago, when trying to explain why he associates with frauds, all support is welcome. Of course, I don't hold with that idea. If someone is not who they claim to be, I really wouldn't want their support. I don't want or need the support of liars and thieves. Guess everyone has their own view on these things.

Warning to Tecumseh Brown Eagle/Abdul Muhammed/James Oliver Johnson 111

----------

From: Chief WALTER T. RENZ

To Whom it comes to their Door,

The person below Mr. Johnson /TBE is not Native American. He uses 7 different Names. And is using bad behaviour as well towards the real Native Americans. We searched for any Native blood and could not find any in his decent. Its time for him to stop all contact with any Government or Tribal Nation using Native name of any kind. We have given the notes to the F.B.I. on him as well. His terrorism is to stop today. It bothers the Elder Chiefs in Canada to no end as well.
Thank you for support.
Chief Walter T. Renz/Graycloud Longtail

-------------------
Mr. Johnson III,
 
After looking over all the files and records we have and have gotten from the researchers that work with us. I have to tell you that Watts does not match your Ancestry. Or the Johnson's you were claiming.. No Native Blood what so ever has been determined by the Tribal Nations on your family history.
 
Your continuous yelling at the Elders and Chiefs , is not one that a real Erie Chief would do. They have said for you to stop calling them and stay away. They have no use for you.
 
We have spoken to you on the Erie name you are using to benefit your pocket. Close the web page it will not benefit you no more.
 
The Shawnee name you claim is not given to you in a traditional way. The Shawnee will be getting this note as well. With your copying of the Tecumseh words on the web page you have. This is a slap in the face of the real Tecumseh with your behaviour.
 
Do not contact us or bother us with your ideas or Casino. We do not want it or need it. Also do not bother the Chiefs in Canada as well. Remove all the contacts you have with the Chiefs and Elders as well. It is so ordered.
 
This is the last notes that you will receive from us. Any more contact from you will not be looked on as a good thing.
 
So Ordered this 8th day the of April 2009 of the above.
Chief Walter Renz/Graycloud Longtail



When Keely pointed out that Renz himself is a fraud, Niiki seemed to agree with this. She said the Six Nations were looking for him. Told Keely in private message that Renz had written bad checks; owed people money. Even went so far as to imply that he had a clinging wife who ran up his cell phone bills. Niiki said there were questions about Renz' genealogy and asked Keely for help filling in the blanks.



Others are looking for him and wondering????

Nikki,

Let me remind you of your private email to me:

Sego, Keely;


   Yes some of us here in Canada met Renz 2 times, as result of contact he made with one of my aquaintenances.

   There are a lot questions that we have about him , as much of what he told us doesn't add up. Especially, when his own people , this Chaliawa Nation really don't support what he does. They want him to do the work for him , but have have not given him any support, financially or physically. He basically told us that his mother, his wife and himself are the ones that do all of the work. The whole time he was here his wife called him about every 5 minutes, which ran up a huge cell phone bill. Then she will also call others up here running up their cell phone bills trying to reach him. He also wrote a cheque for 172.00 that bounced and he has dsihonoured by not covering it, after making several promises to. He also used and mouched off of people's goodness when he was here, promising to return to help us take care of the mounds issue in Toronto. He made several promises and guarentees of return, failing to keep his word. One of our chiefs at Tyendinaga, let me and my aquaintence know that his name is on a "to be dealt with list", because of his lack of keeping his committment to our people, and stating he would be by Stewart Maracle's side to support him. He made a big mistake with Stewart to make such a committment, and then not follow through with it. He is in toruble with the men's councils up here because of this and other things.
There were also questions about his genealogy as certain things do not add up.
Any blanks you can help us fill would greatly be appreciated. Renz also has been warned, that because he did not show up at the Clanmother's meeting at Six Nations Grand Territory last wednesday, his name would be mudd up here. Since then there has been no contact with him, nor have we heard anything from him. Again suspicion that he isn't who has told us he is and that he has no intention in clearing matters up here or taking responsibilty for what he says are his ancestoral sites in Toronto.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinga Mohawk Territory
 


And then bam, did a complete turn around. Niiki started to defend Renz and accuse Keely of not being who she knows she is. Now that's crazy talk. Most of us know Keely, have known her for years.

First she tried to say that Keely and her family were really Erie adopted by the Seneca and therefore under the Great Law of the Confederacy. Then she tried to make a big deal out of Keely being enrolled with the CNO. Well, if Niiki knew anything about Shawnee history, she'd know why. The Shawnee have a closer relationship with the Cherokee in Oklahoma than they do the Six Nations Confederacy.

I do believe that Walter Renz has since responded to your email. Also I do want to remind, that since you are Shawnee, you are a cousin under the protection of the Confederacy, and have no voice on your own. As Walter Renz is also under the protection of the Confederacy and any further attacks by you will be viewed as an attack on the entire Six Nations Confederacy. When Walter came to us , he came here to help protect sacred sites, which no one can fault him for. He also has no interest in Casinos or Casino money at what has been suggested here. I would suggest that this entire post on Walter Renz, be removed from this group and disabled. And Keely whatever words you have to say to Walter, since you do have his email, telephone, and address, that you carry that on with him directly and not on any message board and any of your relatives you have felt this same way towards Walter.
And because Walter is also living in the trailer park he is, is no indication of what kind of a human being he is. Get real!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendianga Mohawk Territory


  I have heard that Keely herself is not who she has led people to believe on line. Stayed tuned for more information on who Keely is. Keely, when you point a finger of judgement at someone, there are always 3 fingers pointing back at you. By the judgement that you put out on Renz, the same judgement will come back at you. I certainly hope you are prepared for the backlash that is coming your way. I tried to warn you , and you have refused to listen. Therefore I do not have any sympathy for you .


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


Why the change in opinion and attitude? Was it because Keely didn't buy into her opinion of the Longtail family or Shawnee in general? Or is it something more?

Who is Niiki? She says she's Mohawk. Funny thing, in all Niiki's posts I have never seen her use Haudenosaunee or even Haude. That seems a little odd. Even if we accept the fact that she's enrolled Mohawk, her statement that she speaks for the Six Nations Confederacy is highly questionable. Threatening Keely with the power of the Confederacy? Now that's blowing smoke.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 19, 2009, 09:13:03 pm
I agree with Al that it's usually frivolous to worry about on line people's identity if they aren't claiming any position of authority ( such as that they are a Shawnee Chief ) or publishing genealogical misinformation, and all to often irrelevent questions about peoples family background gets used as a way to try and discredit someone that someone else doesn't like. But I also noticed and wondered about some of the same stuff bls926 is pointing out.
 
As long as people can back up what they post with independant evidence , I don't think it matters who they are , and anonymous people who occaisionaly mention they have Native ancestry or are Native are probably harmless , but when people use this as something to give themselves authority to speak for their claimed tribe and provide no way to verify this , it gets a bit weird.

I wish that people who claim to be speaking for their tribe who don't use their real name could be discouraged from doing this if there is no other way to verify the tribes general position on these issues .

When people do this anonymously, it's impossible verify they actually have the authority to do this . It gets so it may be one flakey group of people making false claims , denouncing other flakey people making false claims , which gets more than a little wierd. Especially when the people doing this contradict themselves and don't make sense.

And I gotta say , if what Keeley is claiming is true , having her ancestors names wrongly used by someone wanting to make themselves important , is in many ways just as offensive as someone using traditional ceremonies and Prayer to make themselves important.   

That must feel really crappy ...

I feel really bad for anyone having to deal with this.

(edited to fix garbled wording )
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:43:53 am
And I gotta say , if what Keeley is claiming is true , having her ancestors names wrongly used by someone wanting to make themselves important , is in many ways just as offensive as someone using traditional ceremonies and Prayer to make themselves important.  

That must feel really crappy ...

I feel really bad for anyone having to deal with this.

Keely has no evidence to back her claims that Walter Renz has ever sold any Native Crafts on Ebay. Anything he has made has been made as gifts and not for sale. He did give something to someone once, and it ended up on ebay. That is totally wrong, for the person who received the gift and then turned around and sold it, to make it look like Walter was selling Native Crafts on ebay. She herself is totally confused about who Walter Renz as well as herself. She has got Walter Renz and his community confused with Hawk Pope and the Shawnee United Remnant Band. For someone to say that they have always lived amoung their people and then of course she actually lived in NYC in 1999, makes her stories not add up.
She also has been found on other blog sites making racist comments about white people, when she in fact herself is married to someone who is Russian. So who's geneology, stories, community recognition and etc,etc, don't add up, it's Keely's , not mine or anyone elses.
 
So everyone who supports Keely and Keely herself need to get their facts straight because none of you do!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:47:44 am
December 13, 2004
http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/63.html
(Loyal Shawnee of Oklahoma, can be Enrolled Cherokee just like the Delaware)
Haskell University pics.
http://kiowakat.com/katspowwowhub.html

Keely lives in Selina, Kansas.
Posted by: Keely Denning (ID *****5275)
2002:
Hello,
I am not a Draper, I am not a Ingles, I am a Shawnee Indian woman who has been raised with the traditional stories of our people.
In May, 1959, my grandfather was speaking of our family, he was dying, my aunt handed my mother pen and paper to have her write down what he was saying. He told the story of Drapers Meadow, said it happened so long ago, no one really remembers when, that a white female infant was taken into our family, he mentioned the names of Sopronia, Nancy, and Oua-Qua-Tha but we do not know if he is speaking of that child. When children were born into our family, who were of lighter skin, he said they were a "thowback" to the white of long ago.
I do not know if DNA can be done due to the fact that the child was female, and my grandfather is obviously male. The X cromozone to the Y cromozone in the testing is complicated to understand.
I am not here to say I am of the Ingles child, I am here to say I am glad to see there are many descendants. And to share my family story with those who are interested.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ingles/messages/271.html
 
William R HOUSEL
BIRTH: ABT 1862, , , Missouri
Father: John MATLOCK
Mother: Anna A GOOCH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 __
 _John MATLOCK _|
|               |__
|
|--William R HOUSEL
|
|                __
|_Anna A GOOCH _|
                |__

John MATLOCK
Family 1: Anna A GOOCH

 William R HOUSEL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    __
 __|
|  |__
|
|--John MATLOCK
|
|   __
|__|
   |__

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDEX
Notes
! Copyright FamilyHart 2009 - .NAME: KEELY, kdenning(AT)cox.net
Anna A GOOCH
BIRTH: 1 AUG 1843, Shelbyville, Shelby, Missouri
DEATH: 1 FEB 1932, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma
Family 1: John MATLOCK

 William R HOUSEL
Family 2: James Monroe HOUSEL
MARRIAGE: 1 FEB 1866, Shelbyville, Shelby, Missouri

 Blanche HOUSEL
+Barron C. HOUSEL
 Mabel HOUSEL
 Charles HOUSEL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    __
 __|
|  |__
|
|--Anna A GOOCH
|
|   __
|__|
   |__
Barron C. HOUSEL
BIRTH: 12 JAN 1877, Coffeyville, Montgomery, Kansas
DEATH: 5 AUG 1950, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Oklahoma
Father: James Monroe HOUSEL
Mother: Anna A GOOCH
Family 1: Ouida L. PAYNE
MARRIAGE: 14 FEB 1900, Coffeyville, Montgomery, Kansas

 Lorraine V HOUSEL
 Eloise HOUSEL
+Barron C. HOUSEL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        _John Miller HOUSEL _
 _James Monroe HOUSEL _|
|                      |_Rachael VASTINE ____
|
|--Barron C. HOUSEL
|
|                       _____________________
|_Anna A GOOCH ________|
                       |_____________________
(lines continue for these PA DUTCH Surnames. Is Keely Squirrel Denning PA DUTCH also????)
 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:49:26 am
DENNING:
James Denning contacted Keely for genealogy with European connections/DNA:Aug 6 2004
http://genforum.genealogy.com/milner/messages/939.html
sorry to post here but it didnt give email address
so you might be interested in this
I have started a dna connection project for this diverse name. Hopefully to
prove conections left assunder by some mispronounciation or other error.
lets see if England , Ireland, Scotland ,Wales,France,Scandanavia,and Germany
can be conected together. Along with those nations to America, Africa,
Australia , Asia and the smaller places like New Zealand
Dannen Denehy Dening
Denn Dennen Denney
Dennie Dennig Denning
Denninge Denninger Denune
Dineen Dinihey Dinnan
Dinnin Dinning Dinon
Dunn Dunnigan Dennis
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Denning&variants
JimDENNING
NO REPLY BY KEELY

keely is apparently or was married to a white Russian?
Denning:
Elizabeth Anver Denning
Born 1814 in Russia, died October 27, 1877 in America.
This is part of her story...
Emigration from Russia to America.
All had to have passports and all debts had to be paid. We had to give 10% of our property value to the government, plus 18 rubles (about 1.00) per person.
All the property that could not be taken with us had to be rid of, we carried bundles of clothes we needed for the trip.
We took along pumpernickle break, cheese, cold cured salted meat and onion to eat.
Babies were not a problem to feed.
In June 1876 108 families left the town of Herzog, Russia by horses and wagons for Kosaken 40 miles away then we took a boat on the Volga River to Saratow. We were joined there by other Volga on their way to Amerika. Total 1,454 persons.
We went by train July 8, 1876 and entered Poland at Witebek. To enter each adult had to have 150 rubles on hand, this is about 8.33 if some were short they took temporary loans from friends.
We traveled on to Bremen, Germany. We had a three day lay over, a welcomed rest.
When passengers were transfered to a three story hotel their baggage was delivered in carts drawn by dogs. Next morning mass was at a near by Catholic Church, a baby was born in Breman and some children had took their first communion.
A man came from ship to give good news, price of fair 38 rubles per head also included all expenses on ship. Next day was filled with fear and apprehenshion, as the immigrants prepared to leave for Bremenhafen, Germany.
The mighty ship in harbor did not frighten us as much as the vast ocean... Some trembled and grew pale, others burst into tears the women screamed children cried and some were unable to move but they could not turn back now. The men took them in their arms and forced them to walk the gang plank.
Weather was calm until ship crossed the English Channel. Some were sick when a storm passed, most were able to sleep. Frieght was loaded in England and ship began trip across wide ocean..
We had several days of calm and spent much time on deck.
The women did chores mostly washing and drying clothes which was a problem with no clothes line so they would pin baby diapers to their full skirts and walk around until dry that took most of the day. Others danced and played cards while others beathed fresh salt air which was refreshing compared to unpleasant odors below deck.
Bad weather stuck again lasting five days, followed by calm clear weather. The ship arrived at Castle Gardens New York after 14 1/2 days at sea.
Dr.'s came aboard to check passengers health. Baggage and tickets were checked for last time.
The leader of group made deal ith the Rail Road to transport all passengers and baggage to Victoria, Kansas for 16 rubles per person. By time all was on train it was evening, then started for St. Louis, Mo. where they crossed the Mississippi River. From there went to Victoria arrived August 3, 1876.
Friends and family who came in 1875 met us at station.
We walked to Herzog about 1/2 mile north of train station.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:50:30 am
May 04, 2001  by Keely

Other posts by Keely:
If anyone has the date of death on a Peter Baysinger, who was reported to have been hung in Olathe, Kansas on a charge of stealing horses, please e-mail me.
This person would be the son of Peter Baysinger and Elizabeth Rice.
 
Reply:
Peter Washington Baysinger born nov. 13,1838 died may 13 1866 buried Prairie city cemetery which is just outside of Baldwin kansas to the southwest. grave has a civil war marker. According to newspaper accounts hanged as a horse thief.
 
 
Keely is an Elder poster at Indianz.com/2118 posts 6/25/09
You wanna threaten me when your selling fraudulant items on ebay? Wanna threaten my ebay ID.. what a laugh you wannabe idiot! I have already reported you for violations of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act you moron...
Everyone knows Jerry Pope is a fraud. His family came from Germany and there is documented PROOF of this FACT... there is NO Indian blood in his veins... He is also known to molest kids, he harbors a known child molestor on the "reserve" or are you that molestor?
I think you should know that I have more than on eBay ID, and have access to other ID's which belong to my family members... so just what are you gonna do? LOL Get my ID removed? And that hurts me how?
All my ID's are 100% positive feedback [evil grin smiley]
You bring your homey whiteass here to Kansas, you aint the first punkass who has threatend me and lost the battle, bring it on punk.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:52:29 am
of http://www.legalspring.com/articles/alt-lawyers/20040119/directory-20040119.html
posts on legalizing medical marijuana/canada
AKA Tiny Tot Dancer:
of http://www.powwows.com/gathering/145207-post7.html
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 31
Credits: 292.20
BORN and RAISED in Wichita, KANSAS, NOT OKLAHOMA!!!!!!
Actually yes I do live near Wichita, I am in Salina that is a hour and a half north of Wichita... I was born and raised in Wichita
I am getting ready to start a small project, a pocket knife for my father in law and it would be perfect to show anyone! The best bead supplier lives in Wichita too. He sells beads and such from his home.
You can e-mail me at kdenning@cox.net
I have some pictures of the cane but they are too big to post so I will post as soon as I get the jpg smaller.
I have been brick stitching for ten years so it comes very easy for me, and the stitch I prefer to use. I have come up with all kinds of short cuts.
When I began my cane I covered it in skin first, this cane will be beaded all the way, even the handle. I dont think going inside the curve of the handle will be all that difficult because my needles always get a curve to them! LOL and my doctor told me if I needed one of his skinny little curved skin stitching needles he would be happy to give me one.
Many people have asked me why I decided on this project, and the answer is pretty simple... in 1999 my son had a brain tumor removed, he was 18 years old and had to learn how to walk again, when he used his cane, people stared at him, this upset him, so I decided that if people wanted to stare, I would give them something to stare at. My son no longer needs a cane, but I am not going to leave it unfinished.
The cane I got I paid 3.00 for it at a second hand store, it is all wooden. The new prices on canes are just too high! Or the cane is metal adjustable, that just wouldnt work.
(keely is a crafter and also draws on Indianz.com link)
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:53:41 am
More genealogy posts found:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IL-CIVIL-WAR/2005-03/1111783013
From: "Keely" <kdenning@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [IL-CIVIL-WAR] Last Civil War Veteran
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:36:53 -0600
References: <20050325193517.6538.qmail@web51501.mail.yahoo.com>

I am not sure what you are looking for, but here in Kansas we have two
Illinois men buried here,
Capt. William Wallace Bartlett of the Illinois 100th born 12-21-1820 died in
Saline County Kansas 4-26-1893
his brother whom I do not remember who he served with in Illinois:
Lt. Ransom F. Bartlett no birth date death Decemeber 1904
Both buried at Gypsum Hill Cemetery, Saline County, town of Salina, Kansas
I am seeking a photograph of Capt. Bartlett
(Captain Bartlett of the PA DUTCH?????)
(Also posts on MO-L Rootsweb Missouri genealogy)
(keely, bravesheart, nalaw other akas? posts deleted at legal forums?)
Lots of Legal Forums:
eg:
????
Keely wrote: > > What is wrong with our system? (much more at link where other posters were
frustrated with her?) 
She blasts a Mark Renfro as a wannabee Cherokee also:
http://www.legalspring.com/articles/alt-lawyers/20040118/64011_US-CA--Web--New-Fede.html
And supports medical marijuana use:
but honestly, I
do support medical use of marijuana... in the state of Kansas, just
marijuana residue will get you arrested for possession, get arrested twice
for it, and it is a felony.... which means our courts are back logged, and
tax payers dollars are being spent to house prisoners for simple residue...
but the laws are not targeting people by race, religion, or anything else...
it is targeting those who use or sell drugs.. no discrimination there at
all.
same link

kdenning@sympatico.ca May NOT be the same person:
http://www.rscm.u-net.com/publ.pdf
Grace Under Press (GPU:some sort of publishing?)
 
 

Indianz.com forums:
To all the regulars here... I am sorry for bringing a eBay issue here, however, this ID 9062angel is selling items on eBay as Indian made... made by the "great" (urp) chief hawk pope... and his wannabe group "united remenant shawnee" of which had to disband once since the US Federal Government has already informed them they are not a Indian tribe and cannot sell items as Indian made... Now this group is asking for donations from people... selling crap on eBay to people who dont know any better...
Jerry Pope knows who I am, and never has had the courage to deal with me directly... His dad has died and Harry's SS information is now all public... of course Jerry never talked about his dad Harry, he spoke of his grandfather Reva Pope who was supposed to be Shawnee Indian, and that the Pope name is a Shawnee name, none of which is true... I have a copy of Reva's death records, and his family has been traced back to Germany where they got on a ship in Berlin to come to America.. Jerry knows these are true facts and so he avoids me all the way..
Some day, I will have a webpage with all this information made public... Jerry knows he is a fraud and he is now begging for donations...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 01:55:27 am
If I live for 100 Years, I will never understand white people. If I live for 1000 years, white people will never understand me.

Keely,
This the same Pope whose sister is known as the "Shawnee Clan Mother" of the Remnant Band? One, Dark Rain Thom?
Johnnie
That would be the one and same... each as much as a fraud as the other... But the two had a falling out, and now are dishing out dirt on the other and saying the other is a wannabe.. Imagine that, two wannabes calling the other a wannabe...
keely
Ummmmmm... wasn't she part of the Indiana Indian commission that you worked with... ???
Just wondering why you keep slamming this "wannabe" woman when you once worked alongside of her and the ilks of Arthur Sonier... aka Arthur Medicine Eagle...
Just sayin...
jana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Stupid is as stupid does" <---- Put here for KiowaKat... ;-)
 
Jana,
I never worked with her. And I had no choice as to who was on the Commission. Anyone who criticizes you is "humping your leg" but whenever you stick your long nose into anything it is to criticize.
There are things going on here to make sure another wannabee does not get on the Commission, but I don't blare it out. In spite of what you think, there are bigger things in the world than your point of view, starting with the musical sound of an ant's fart.
Johnnie
Edited to add: BTW, shows you how much you think you know. Sonier was never on the Commission. He was your pal remember?
of http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37602

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=9062angel
Shawnee URB arts/crafts for sale.
Angel (Eagle?) NOT Renz
 

PARKER, Robert Wed Oct 30, 2002
I am a volunteer researcher for the Saline County Kansas Sheriff's Department, I research former Sheriff's trying to locate former photographs of them. One of our former Sheriff's is Robert Parker, he served as Sheriff in Saline County in 1863-1864, he left Saline County after 1865 and went to Jackson County for a short time, from there he went to Chautauqua County and died in Sedan. I have gotten his obituary, learned his daughter married a Dyer, I do not know what happened to his son, John. One other child of his had died in Saline County and is buried here. I would appreciate corresponding with anyone researching this line, or anyone who might know of a photograph of Robert Parker.
Contact Keely Denning - kdenning@cox.net

COONS:
Some went to California...
Here is a address to McPherson County Kansas, please check the marrige records that are online for COONS and the teacher certificates..
I am trying to locate any decendants of these Coons that were in McPherson County Kansas!
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ksmcrla/
I can do better than a copy and paste
Posted by: Keely Date: May 04, 2001 at 15:44:56
In Reply to: Re: Oh I forgot to include by slave weddings chelsea ma pre 1840
I can actually write my message twice.
Jim, you have a guilty mind your talking to? You seem to be the only one who believes only your family counts, or that you are the only one who knows something... but your not.
I am not a Denning... I married a Denning, it does not make me Volga German... I am Indian.. American Indian... and my husband being married to me does not make him a Indian...
We have a full understanding and full respect for each others people of which we come from.
He enjoys learning my culture, and I enjoy learning about his culture.
We share families... we are part of each others families...
Is there any part of this of which you dont understand? Should I type slower for you??
I come to help other people with what Denning knowledge I do have... and it is a shame you have made some feel totally unwelcomed by your flipant responses to people... No doubt you have helped some... those people are the ones with Dennings in your line... but you dont know squat about Dennings from Russia.
+Jim,
Since you seem to "know" so much about Volgas (haha) tell me, where is the ocean or even a large river close to the villiage of Herzog of which to float one of these ships built for the Russian Navy?? I wont run the Jeopardy theme song or anything like that...
Yes... little me, of course I know nothing to your high "knowledge" of the Dennings from Russia... not me.. none at all.. not even when I had long conversations with Martin Moeder, a Volga who is my husbands grandfather, who came over to Amerika, he never did perfect the English language.. God rest his farming soul... he was not a ship builder either.. but then, he was not a Denning...
I dont understand why you want to put Volgas down and insult them all the time... are you part of some kind of race hate group?

"dennings from reusssia are either
shipbuilders from western europe or czar peter made people adopt western names
jim"
Wrong, they were farmers! Plus many Volga Germans brought over to America the winter wheat of which most of your store bought bread is made from... it is a hardier wheat of which can with stand harsher winters.. I believe Americans call it a Red Turkey Wheat.
Thank you for knowing so much about Dennings from Russia!
 
Jim
I guess I am confussed to your message.
My husbands family in Russia were Denning... before they went to Russia they were Denning. There are different ways of spelling Denning, I can assure you the Czar did not make them take a "western" name. Besides, it was not the Czar in power when my husbands family went into Russia, it was Katherine the Great.
 
Hello,
My husbands family came to America from Herzog, Russia. This family went from Germany into Russia then from Russia into America by way of Germany... It might be this family began in France...
My father in law just began his family research, but what caught the eye to your post is the use of the name Andreas, as the family has Andreas born March 26, 1885 but I do not have a date of death for him or location...
He also has Frank Denning, born 1873 abd a Frank born Aug. 15, 1949 The first Frank would have been born in Russia, as the family had not come to America yet, and I do not know if this Frank came over.
Some of my husbands family stayed behind, my father in law has just began his research and is seeking information on a Michael who remained either in Russia or Germany.
You can e-mail me at keely@tri.net
My father in law in not online yet...
Keely

The problem with getting together is that I do not think that my husbands family from Russia has a link to a Denning family from England.
I do, in general contact people in private on the Dennings from Russia or those who have names that might be of my husbands family. I contact in private because there is a person who views this board (they know who they are) whom is taking information posted, not documenting anything, and putting it in their book..
Heck.. this person does not have correct information on me, but it is in their book.. plus, the person has no right to use my name, the names of my children or try to copyright such.
Becareful of what is posted here... someone thinks they have a right to it...
It is sad that we cannot openly give information out... that one bad apple has spoiled if for the family.

I am researching a Hendrick D. Baker who was born in Kentucky to Dr. John Baker and Nancy. The Doctor was a supporter of the Union, he was assinated as he stood in the doorway of his home. No action was taken to find his killer. His sons, Hendrick and John joined the Union. After the war, Hendrick removed his family to Kansas where he felt his family would be safer.
His mother Nancy died in 1877, she is burried here in Salina, Betty, Hendricks sister died in 1879. She is burried near her mother. Hendrick died in 1897 in Guthrie, Oklahoma, and his wife died 10 days later and they are burried together with the family.
In 1880 census I have Hendrick living in Salina with his wife Laura (aka Fannie) daughter May, sons Claud and Harry. May dies in 1887, and was the only daughter of Hendrick. A son Clifford died in 1884. He must have been a baby because he is not on the 1880 census.
Hendricks brother, John, I have not located.
I am researching this family looking for descendants. Hendrick was a Sheriff of Saline County Kansas in 1879, and again in 1880 to 1881. Our Sheriff is trying to locate photos of all our former Sheriffs and I have been doing the research in order to try to accomplish this.
 
Dec. 13, 2004 genforum.genealogy.com post Re: CHARLEY'S OF OKLAHOMA
Would like to know more of your Charley's, I am the great grandaughter of Sam Charley
and Betsy Panther Charley. I believe Sam to be the son of Delaware Charley, their
daughter Eli married Isaac Squirrel who was Shawnee. kdenning@cox.net
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ingles/messages/337.html
Draper Revisited Post Aug. 23 2005 by keely
I posted here some time ago, and though people have replied, and I have gotten some emails, I have been busy with issues that concern my tribe... recently, one of those issues became intangled with the Drapers Meadows and Mary Ingles.
The Shawnee people have been misrepresented so many times, by so many authors, worse, is the pretend Indian who claims some descendancy just so they can make a profit. I can only wonder if this happens with the Ingles family as well.
I come to the true descendants of the Ingles family with my heart, and am I willing to do DNA testing to see if it is possible that the white female child that has been spoken of in my family could be that of the Ingles? Yes I am, though we can only get results if the line is continious through the surnames of my lineage... we do not know...
A recent issue has been James Thom, author of "Follow the River" a book that is supposed to be based on Mary Ingles story... I have read the book, and I was offended...
Many bad things happened, this is true, but Thom, in my opinion, goes too far, not only does his book refer to the Shawnee women as "squaws" but Mary Ingles is refered to as a "white squaw" Now many people do not know what these words actually mean, through the years and movies made about Indians, most people think that the term "squaw" means "woman"... but it does not... it means something else, something that I cannot write in English on any public board, but I assure you, it is so highly offensive that that most would be horrified to know that your ancestor has been called such a name.
Thom claims he researched this before he wrote it, and I could only wonder how is it that he can make so much money off the backs of both our ancestors? Has Thom offered anything towards the memory of Mary Ingles or that of her children? He just took her story and made a lot of money from the suffering?
Recently a town in Indiana decided this is a book that the town should read, and the town should have a book discussion on it... This history does not belong to Indiana, and Indian people of many tribes are offended by Thoms writing... we are not offended of Mary Ingles story.. I come to close this circle and make it complete, and Thom sets his sites on ripping old wounds open...
Is it possible that the true descendants of the Ingles and that of the Shawnee could write a more accurate book? Let our voices be heard instead of this person who has no connection with either side and has no other interest than to line his own pockets?
Thoms wife, Mari, goes by the name of Dark Rain, she has been associated with a group of frauds in Ohio, she claims to be Shawnee Indian... but she is not.
I want to tell the story of my grandfather, and from the perspective of the Shawnee, I want the story of Mary Ingles to be known, and I think it would be best if we worked together, and not offensive to anyone...
If you are interested, please email me at kdenning@cox.net if you would like to talk to me, I would be happy to provide my home number in a email.

Posts on genforum.genealogy.com/

My name is Keely Denning, I am the great grandaughter of Anne Longtail, sister to Abraham Longtail, and you still dont have their parents correct.. there never was a Wallen in our family... I can document what I say with federal records...
My name is Keely Denning, I am a enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, I am Shawnee, my family is from the Black Bob Band, my great grandmother was a Longtail.
My name is Keely Denning, I live in Kansas, I am Shawnee, I am enrolled in a federally recognized nation, that is the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, this is because the Shawnee tribe I am from was once a part of the Cherokee Nation and therefore my enrollment is with them.
Renz, is using my grandmothers maiden name of Longtail..
My dad was a full blood Shawnee, his name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel, my mother was Chippewa, I was raised as Shawnee.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/1067.html
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 02:11:57 am
Nikki,

I am glad you are so interested that you wish to google me all over the place  ;)

Though I do not have to defend myself to you, I will tell you that you are quite funny. I wish you would have gotten to know me a bit better before you went on this rampage.

I am a historical researcher, I research for our Sheriff Department, so you will come across many postings I have made online in my research I also have worked on a Jane Doe homicide case, so you will come across many things online about my work on that case, you might even be able to find television interviews of which I have done, but let me assure you, those television interviews have never been about me, they are about a woman who was beaten, thrown off a bridge, and drowned in frigged weather. It is a very sad case and our victim deserves for someone to dedicate themselves to finding out who she is.

So far, the postings you have come accross is the surname of Matlock, of whom is family to a friend of mine and I was helping him with this genealogy research. That friend of mine is currently the Under Sheriff of a county not far from where I live. He is my friend, not my cousin, I am not related to the Matlocks.

You found research from the Denning surname. I am married to a man who is full blood Volga German, but I have no Volga blood in me at all. I helped his father with his family research. It is humorous to see you copy a post of a historical statement made by one of my husbands ancestors about their trip across the ocean and assume it is my family and not that of my husbands.

Well Nikki, do you feel kinda silly now?

Of course if you knew anything about my tribe you would find out that being enrolled in the Cherokee Nation is not uncommon, as I stated earlier I am enrolled CNO, I also stated the my tribe was adopted by the Cherokee Nation... please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote.

I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.

As for Jerry Pope and his fraudulant group, the US government has already gotten after them on more than one occassion for selling items as Indian made, and yes, they are doing it again on eBay, and yes, they too are having action taken against them and no I will not discuss what I know about the action being taken...

But let me clear something up for you Nikki, my husband is not a Little Charley, my husband is not related to my family, you took a post off the Charley surname board and tried to make it look like I wrote the first post, yet I had responded to the second post with my great grandfather Sam Charley, his wife Betsy Panther Charley... At the time we thought that Delaware Charley was Sam's dad, I have since learned this is not so... but I also learned some of the family was known as Little Charley, thus I am related to the lady's husband who posted about the Little Charley family..

Do you always try to twist things?

Why are you so upset Nikki? Why are you tring to make a mountian out of nothing at all?





Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 02:38:39 am
of http://www.legalspring.com/articles/alt-lawyers/20040119/directory-20040119.html
posts on legalizing medical marijuana/canada
AKA Tiny Tot Dancer:
of http://www.powwows.com/gathering/145207-post7.html
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 31
Credits: 292.20
BORN and RAISED in Wichita, KANSAS, NOT OKLAHOMA!!!!!!
Actually yes I do live near Wichita, I am in Salina that is a hour and a half north of Wichita... I was born and raised in Wichita
I am getting ready to start a small project, a pocket knife for my father in law and it would be perfect to show anyone! The best bead supplier lives in Wichita too. He sells beads and such from his home.
You can e-mail me at kdenning@cox.net
I have some pictures of the cane but they are too big to post so I will post as soon as I get the jpg smaller.
I have been brick stitching for ten years so it comes very easy for me, and the stitch I prefer to use. I have come up with all kinds of short cuts.
When I began my cane I covered it in skin first, this cane will be beaded all the way, even the handle. I dont think going inside the curve of the handle will be all that difficult because my needles always get a curve to them! LOL and my doctor told me if I needed one of his skinny little curved skin stitching needles he would be happy to give me one.
Many people have asked me why I decided on this project, and the answer is pretty simple... in 1999 my son had a brain tumor removed, he was 18 years old and had to learn how to walk again, when he used his cane, people stared at him, this upset him, so I decided that if people wanted to stare, I would give them something to stare at. My son no longer needs a cane, but I am not going to leave it unfinished.
The cane I got I paid 3.00 for it at a second hand store, it is all wooden. The new prices on canes are just too high! Or the cane is metal adjustable, that just wouldnt work.
(keely is a crafter and also draws on Indianz.com link)


Yes Nikki, I do beadwork and I draw, and I can sell it as Indian made  :D Yes I was born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, but I was with my tradtional people.. I lived in many states while growing up, Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Texas, and even Oklahoma... But I have never been to New York... dont have a interest in visiting there either.. My husband would like to take me to Chicago... I would rather stay home and spend time with my grandbabies  :)

Yes, in 1999 my son had a brain tumor, he was a Who's Who student, wanted to go into the medical field, my little brother is a medical doctor... but his brain tumor cut his dream. So do you want to make fun of him? Use him as a point for what? What point are you trying to make by using my son? Oh, I know, shoot.. you want to use him because I support medical marijuana... But Nikki, in reality, I support legalizing marijuana all together.. the states could make money off the taxes, I also support legalized prostitution.. that is another taxable profession of which our states could use.. I think it is a double edge sword when a woman can go out, and have sex with as many men as possible and it is not illegal, but becomes illegal the moment she gets money for it...

Marijuana is a old, traditional medicine that Indian people used... our prisons are full of people who's crime was smoking a little pot... there are child molesters and killers who get less time in prison than a person who was caught smoking a little pot twice... two times it becomes a felony where I live... But then, thats a different topic for a different message board...

Now, are you done spamming the board with these posts?

Calm down Nikki, you seem out of control with anger towards me... there is no need for it... I can do you no harm, nor can you harm me. It is only the Internet.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 04:06:42 am
Keely says she is Shawnee all her life but this this is what she says in 2002:

Keely Squirrel-Denning:
Enrolled Cherokee 

....And she was looking around for her ancestors in 2004, when she claims she knows who she was all of her life


This is partly what I feared, possibly degenerating into "You're not NDN enough" accusations based on flimsy pretexts or misunderstanding data.
It's not unusual for people to try to look and see what else they can find out about their ancestors, Nikki. I've known several fairly well known NDN historians, who were also enrolled and extremely well known in their communities, who've done that.

Technically this should be yet another thread on Keely, but I don't see how to disentangle them.

I see your point about fraudulent crafts, Keely.


Thank you Al.

I do research my family, all my life I have known who my grandparents and great grandparents were on the Charley side, but have wondered what/who was their parents... as anyone who has researched Indian history or genealogy, it is not easy... finding credible records on individuals can be a hard task specially and Oklahoma did not start having census records until 1900. Though census was done in 1890, a fire destroyed some, the government tried to destroy the rest, very few 1890 records survived. I was sent a record on Sam Charley when he gave testimony about his parents but he did not say their names, he said what tribe they were from and that his mother was a sister to Jack Girty.. What makes it really hard in my research is that my gr grandmother was in her 50's when she gave birth to my grandmother, my grandmother was in her 40's when she gave birth to my dad.. But research is also fun, I learned that my great grandfather Sam Charley, during the 1840's was part of the Indian Texas Rangers... as was my great Uncles, Cha-Yer-Ya and Looking At Us.

I hope people would get more into researching their family, no matter if they are white, black, Indian, or yellow, there are so many hidden things that at times, help explain the person we are or how much like our ancestors we are.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 04:08:01 am

Yes Nikki, I do beadwork and I draw, and I can sell it as Indian made  :D Yes I was born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, but I was with my tradtional people.. I lived in many states while growing up, Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Texas, and even Oklahoma... But I have never been to New York... dont have a interest in visiting there either.. My husband would like to take me to Chicago... I would rather stay home and spend time with my grandbabies  :)


Stereotype of the Month Entry
(8/18/00)
of http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype087.htm
Keely Denning, NY volunteer for nativeweb.org/
NativeWeb founding board member www.nativeweb.org/info/paper.php
In February of 1999, NativeWeb formally incorporated itself as a non-profit corporation
in the State of New York under the name NativeWeb, Inc. It established a formal board of
directors with 10 board members (Marc Becker, Shane Caraveo, David Cole,
Keely Squirrel Denning,
Peter d'Errico, Alan Mandell, Pat Paul, Tara Prindle, Karen Strom, and Carmel Vivier).
The group now included a software programmer; a computer network specialist who was a
member of a Native American tribal council; a lawyer who was a tribal judge; an
independent legislative analyst focusing on native-related issues; a law office
manager and freelance writer who works with native communities in Canada;
a novelist writing stories on native issues; and two university professors:
one a lawyer involved with Indigenous peoples' legal issues and the other a
historian focusing on Indigenous issues in Latin America. NativeWeb has always been a
labor of love, rooted in a volunteer workforce.
Posted at 8:36pm on Wed, Sep 10 2008
http://www.nativeweb.org/info/paper.php
(Was in NY in 1999; NOT in Oklahoma all her life with her "tribe"!)
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 04:17:31 am
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 04:22:21 am
But let me clear something up for you Nikki, my husband is not a Little Charley, my husband is not related to my family, you took a post off the Charley surname board and tried to make it look like I wrote the first post, yet I had responded to the second post with my great grandfather Sam Charley, his wife Betsy Panther Charley... At the time we thought that Delaware Charley was Sam's dad, I have since learned this is not so... but I also learned some of the family was known as Little Charley, thus I am related to the lady's husband who posted about the Little Charley family..


And now you are saying that you did not write this???

Charley's of Oklahoma:
October 14, 2003
My husband is a descendant of Little Charley, Mark Charley,& Eugene Charley. They are
from the Little Axe area in Oklahoma. They are Absentee Shawnee. Any connection?

Keely Denning wrote: http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/63.html

Would like to know more of your Charley's, I am the great grandaughter of Sam Charley
and Betsy Panther Charley. I believe Sam to be the son of Delaware Charley, their
daughter Eli married Isaac Squirrel who was Shawnee.
December 13, 2004

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 06:08:12 am
But let me clear something up for you Nikki, my husband is not a Little Charley, my husband is not related to my family, you took a post off the Charley surname board and tried to make it look like I wrote the first post, yet I had responded to the second post with my great grandfather Sam Charley, his wife Betsy Panther Charley... At the time we thought that Delaware Charley was Sam's dad, I have since learned this is not so... but I also learned some of the family was known as Little Charley, thus I am related to the lady's husband who posted about the Little Charley family..


And now you are saying that you did not write this???

Charley's of Oklahoma:
October 14, 2003
My husband is a descendant of Little Charley, Mark Charley,& Eugene Charley. They are
from the Little Axe area in Oklahoma. They are Absentee Shawnee. Any connection?

Keely Denning wrote: http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/63.html

Would like to know more of your Charley's, I am the great grandaughter of Sam Charley
and Betsy Panther Charley. I believe Sam to be the son of Delaware Charley, their
daughter Eli married Isaac Squirrel who was Shawnee. kdenning@cox.net
December 13, 2004



Nikki,

You should have provided a link...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/57.html

As anyone can see, the post was written by Shirley Charley about her husbands family the Little Charley's... below her post, anyone can see my reply to her post...

If you back up to the original poster, Jeannine Vernon, she is of my family..

Do you understand this any better? So, to answer your question if I deny making a post saying my husband was a Little Charley, the answer is obvious, I did not write that, but replied to the poster who is married to Little Charley..



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 06:20:34 am
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

This is too funny!!!

Nikki,

The first person who brought up selling items on eBay was YOU! You wrote that I was accusing Walter of selling items on eBay, you wrote that after you copied and pasted a post I had on indianz about SOMEONE ELSE who is selling items on eBay fraudulantly! That post on indianz had NOTHING to do with Walter Renz!! Do some checking before accusing people of things that you confused yourself with!

Did you see Walters name in that post about the person I directed my indianz post to? No, you didnt, because I didnt accuse him...

Here is the eBay site to the person I directed that post to!

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Shawnee-Nation-URB__W0QQ_sidZ459876747QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=2

Now tell me Nikki, what does that seller have to do with Walter Renz?

You keep making false accusations and twisting things into something they are not.. and everytime you do it, I am going to reply with proof and links to people can see what the truth is...



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 06:22:17 am
But let me clear something up for you Nikki, my husband is not a Little Charley, my husband is not related to my family, you took a post off the Charley surname board and tried to make it look like I wrote the first post, yet I had responded to the second post with my great grandfather Sam Charley, his wife Betsy Panther Charley... At the time we thought that Delaware Charley was Sam's dad, I have since learned this is not so... but I also learned some of the family was known as Little Charley, thus I am related to the lady's husband who posted about the Little Charley family..


And now you are saying that you did not write this???

Charley's of Oklahoma:
October 14, 2003
My husband is a descendant of Little Charley, Mark Charley,& Eugene Charley. They are
from the Little Axe area in Oklahoma. They are Absentee Shawnee. Any connection?

Keely Denning wrote: http://genforum.genealogy.com/charley/messages/63.html

Would like to know more of your Charley's, I am the great grandaughter of Sam Charley
and Betsy Panther Charley. I believe Sam to be the son of Delaware Charley, their
daughter Eli married Isaac Squirrel who was Shawnee. kdenning@cox.net
December 13, 2004



Oh and BTW, I really AM the great grandaughter of Sam Charley and Betsy Panther Charley  ;D

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 06:30:55 am
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

Here Nikki, a link for you to show you these people are doing exactly as I say... selling items online as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act. I even have private emails from some of these people telling me their work is Indian made...

http://still-wateroriginals.tripod.com/

So yes, people from that group are indeed selling their work online as Indian made... Are you done trying to disprove me yet?



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 11:29:43 am
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

Here Nikki, a link for you to show you these people are doing exactly as I say... selling items online as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act. I even have private emails from some of these people telling me their work is Indian made...

http://still-wateroriginals.tripod.com/

So yes, people from that group are indeed selling their work online as Indian made... Are you done trying to disprove me yet?





Quote from: Keely on July 19, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  Grin There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.
   
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 12:29:15 pm
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

This is too funny!!!

Nikki,

The first person who brought up selling items on eBay was YOU! You wrote that I was accusing Walter of selling items on eBay, you wrote that after you copied and pasted a post I had on indianz about SOMEONE ELSE who is selling items on eBay fraudulantly! That post on indianz had NOTHING to do with Walter Renz!! Do some checking before accusing people of things that you confused yourself with!

Did you see Walters name in that post about the person I directed my indianz post to? No, you didnt, because I didnt accuse him...

Here is the eBay site to the person I directed that post to!

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Shawnee-Nation-URB__W0QQ_sidZ459876747QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=2

Now tell me Nikki, what does that seller have to do with Walter Renz?

You keep making false accusations and twisting things into something they are not.. and everytime you do it, I am going to reply with proof and links to people can see what the truth is...




Wrong again Keely! You are the one that made an issue out of Walter and his group selling items on ebay! As you modified and deleted the post in a response to Al. Don't think that we have not made hard copies of our posts.
You think you can pull one over on us. I also have been aware those that have contacted some of your so-called relatives, that these relatives you say are related to don't know you!

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 03:56:27 pm
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

Here Nikki, a link for you to show you these people are doing exactly as I say... selling items online as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act. I even have private emails from some of these people telling me their work is Indian made...

http://still-wateroriginals.tripod.com/

So yes, people from that group are indeed selling their work online as Indian made... Are you done trying to disprove me yet?





Quote from: Keely on July 19, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  Grin There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.
   

No Nikki, no where in there did I say Walter was selling items on eBay, I said they are selling them ONLINE as Indian made, and they are, and I did provide a link.
You are trying to force words into something that was never written. You made a assumption that I was saying eBay when I only said items were being sold online...


Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 04:10:23 pm
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

Here Nikki, a link for you to show you these people are doing exactly as I say... selling items online as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act. I even have private emails from some of these people telling me their work is Indian made...

http://still-wateroriginals.tripod.com/

So yes, people from that group are indeed selling their work online as Indian made... Are you done trying to disprove me yet?





Quote from: Keely on July 19, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  Grin There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.
   

Nikki,

I think you should know, the first time the issue of eBay that comes up in this whole mess of a thread, comes from one of your posts here is what YOU wrote:

Keely has no evidence to back her claims that Walter Renz has ever sold any Native Crafts on Ebay. Anything he has made has been made as gifts and not for sale. He did give something to someone once, and it ended up on ebay. That is totally wrong, for the person who received the gift and then turned around and sold it, to make it look like Walter was selling Native Crafts on ebay. She herself is totally confused about who Walter Renz as well as herself. She has got Walter Renz and his community confused with Hawk Pope and the Shawnee United Remnant Band. For someone to say that they have always lived amoung their people and then of course she actually lived in NYC in 1999, makes her stories not add up.
She also has been found on other blog sites making racist comments about white people, when she in fact herself is married to someone who is Russian. So who's geneology, stories, community recognition and etc,etc, don't add up, it's Keely's , not mine or anyone elses.
 
So everyone who supports Keely and Keely herself need to get their facts straight because none of you do!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


Now Nikki, who does not have their facts straight? No one has edited my posts, but thanks to your insistance, I have learned this can be done :) as I do not use this board enough to know it's format, and now I see the "modify" key which is great since my family, who has been reading some of this, would like to remove our family information, as they feel I dont have to prove anything to you about my family history.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 20, 2009, 04:24:46 pm
Reply #26
Quoting myself
Quote
I don't know the person this thread is discussing, but generally speaking, if  people know the truth and are living a lie,  anyone who threatens to expose the truth will be seen as an enemy and undermined and discredited. ( Such as someone who really is from the tribe that is being falsly claimed ) Whether or not anyone is seriously hurt all depends on the situation. Vulnerable people can be really seriously impacted by what these people can do to protect their NDN identity from being exposed as a lie.

This discrediting and undermining can happen to individuals or tribal authorities who do not support these peoples imagined identities.


Maybe Niiki is trying to give us an example of the kind of behavior I was reffering to in the quote above.

Sure , on a message board in cyberspace it just looks silly to make all these unfounded accusations , but what if this situation was happening in real life and Keeley and Niiki were relatives or co workers ? What if someone in Keeley's situation was a vulnerable person ? I've seen similar unfounded personal attacks in some pretty fragile situations and it sure isn't harmless .

This thread is about Walter Renz not about Keeley.

Keeley
Quote
now I see the "modify" key which is great since my family, who has been reading some of this, would like to remove our family information, as they feel I dont have to prove anything to you about my family history
.

You might want to save the webpages before you change your posts so no one accuses you of removing wierd stuff that was never there .
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Cetan on July 20, 2009, 05:07:08 pm
Am I logged on to NAFPS or Indianz.combatzone?? Why dont you take your trashing over ther and leave this forum to discuss frauds
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 05:09:21 pm
Reply #26
Quoting myself
Quote
I don't know the person this thread is discussing, but generally speaking, if  people know the truth and are living a lie,  anyone who threatens to expose the truth will be seen as an enemy and undermined and discredited. ( Such as someone who really is from the tribe that is being falsly claimed ) Whether or not anyone is seriously hurt all depends on the situation. Vulnerable people can be really seriously impacted by what these people can do to protect their NDN identity from being exposed as a lie.

This discrediting and undermining can happen to individuals or tribal authorities who do not support these peoples imagined identities.


Maybe Niiki is trying to give us an example of the kind of behavior I was reffering to in the quote above.

Sure , on a message board in cyberspace it just looks silly to make all these unfounded accusations , but what if this situation was happening in real life and Keeley and Niiki were relatives or co workers ? What if someone in Keeley's situation was a vulnerable person ? I've seen similar unfounded personal attacks in some pretty fragile situations and it sure isn't harmless .

This thread is about Walter Renz not about Keeley.

Keeley
Quote
now I see the "modify" key which is great since my family, who has been reading some of this, would like to remove our family information, as they feel I dont have to prove anything to you about my family history
.

You might want to save the webpages before you change your posts so no one accuses you of removing wierd stuff that was never there .

I decided to leave them up. Even though my family feels I dont have to prove myself, I have never edited a post here after I have posted it, to edit anything now may just booster Nikki's continous rant about me.

This thread is about Walter Renz, not the Nikki, Keely show. It is getting old isnt it? But I know me, more false accusations will be said by Nikki, and I will continue to set the record straight. I do admitt, though at times I am entertained by Nikki's attempts to discredit me, at the same time it is boring.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 05:12:59 pm
Am I logged on to NAFPS or Indianz.combatzone?? Why dont you take your trashing over ther and leave this forum to discuss frauds

Indianz.combatzone... that is funny! And so true! Even I, who may have been voted the meanist, is tired of all that over there.. no one can hold a conversation on that board without someone butting in and causing trouble. I am not pointing fingers, just sayin...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 05:53:43 pm
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  ;D There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.

Here Nikki, a link for you to show you these people are doing exactly as I say... selling items online as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act. I even have private emails from some of these people telling me their work is Indian made...

http://still-wateroriginals.tripod.com/

So yes, people from that group are indeed selling their work online as Indian made... Are you done trying to disprove me yet?





Quote from: Keely on July 19, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
I did not say that Walter was selling items on eBay, but thanks for the information of someone else selling it  Grin There is a person who is selling her items online as Indian made who is a part of this "morning star" group that Walter made up. But I cannot discuss the action being taken.


In an earlier post you did accuse Walter of selling items on ebay:

Now, Al feels that Walter is not hurting anyone, but he, and his group is selling items online as Indian made, that is in violation of the Indian arts and crafts act of 1990.. to which, action is currently being taken, I cannot discuss what all is happening, but I have not sat by with idle hands. So there are people who have purchased items from these people and has been defrauded.
   

Nikki,

I think you should know, the first time the issue of eBay that comes up in this whole mess of a thread, comes from one of your posts here is what YOU wrote:

Keely has no evidence to back her claims that Walter Renz has ever sold any Native Crafts on Ebay. Anything he has made has been made as gifts and not for sale. He did give something to someone once, and it ended up on ebay. That is totally wrong, for the person who received the gift and then turned around and sold it, to make it look like Walter was selling Native Crafts on ebay. She herself is totally confused about who Walter Renz as well as herself. She has got Walter Renz and his community confused with Hawk Pope and the Shawnee United Remnant Band. For someone to say that they have always lived amoung their people and then of course she actually lived in NYC in 1999, makes her stories not add up.
She also has been found on other blog sites making racist comments about white people, when she in fact herself is married to someone who is Russian. So who's geneology, stories, community recognition and etc,etc, don't add up, it's Keely's , not mine or anyone elses.
 
So everyone who supports Keely and Keely herself need to get their facts straight because none of you do!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


Now Nikki, who does not have their facts straight? No one has edited my posts, but thanks to your insistance, I have learned this can be done :) as I do not use this board enough to know it's format, and now I see the "modify" key which is great since my family, who has been reading some of this, would like to remove our family information, as they feel I dont have to prove anything to you about my family history.

  Wrong again it was mentioned by you and others first before I anything about this. I was only trying speak what is the truth about Walters involvement in this. As he is inoccent of any wrong doing as you are accusing him of.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 20, 2009, 05:56:06 pm
Am I logged on to NAFPS or Indianz.combatzone?? Why dont you take your trashing over ther and leave this forum to discuss frauds

I agree. Because Walter Renz is not a fraud!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 06:59:51 pm
Am I logged on to NAFPS or Indianz.combatzone?? Why dont you take your trashing over ther and leave this forum to discuss frauds

I agree. Because Walter Renz is not a fraud!!

Well Nikki, the facts speak for themselves, and Walter is in enough trouble on his own. And if being in trouble with the US Indian Arts and Crafts Act is not enough to prove this group is fake, then I wont try to convince you otherwise.. There are plenty of people who do know this guy is a fraud, his group is a fraud.

Here is your own email to me Nikki, a email of which you state Walters claims do not add up, that he is on a "to be delt with" list (maybe that was just another one of your empty threats?) So Nikki, here it is again, your own email:

Sego, Keely;


   Yes some of us here in Canada met Renz 2 times, as result of contact he made with one of my aquaintenances.

   There are a lot questions that we have about him , as much of what he told us doesn't add up. Especially, when his own people , this Chaliawa Nation really don't support what he does. They want him to do the work for him , but have have not given him any support, financially or physically. He basically told us that his mother, his wife and himself are the ones that do all of the work. The whole time he was here his wife called him about every 5 minutes, which ran up a huge cell phone bill. Then she will also call others up here running up their cell phone bills trying to reach him. He also wrote a cheque for 172.00 that bounced and he has dsihonoured by not covering it, after making several promises to. He also used and mouched off of people's goodness when he was here, promising to return to help us take care of the mounds issue in Toronto. He made several promises and guarentees of return, failing to keep his word. One of our chiefs at Tyendinaga, let me and my aquaintence know that his name is on a "to be dealt with list", because of his lack of keeping his committment to our people, and stating he would be by Stewart Maracle's side to support him. He made a big mistake with Stewart to make such a committment, and then not follow through with it. He is in toruble with the men's councils up here because of this and other things.
There were also questions about his genealogy as certain things do not add up.
Any blanks you can help us fill would greatly be appreciated. Renz also has been warned, that because he did not show up at the Clanmother's meeting at Six Nations Grand Territory last wednesday, his name would be mudd up here. Since then there has been no contact with him, nor have we heard anything from him. Again suspicion that he isn't who has told us he is and that he has no intention in clearing matters up here or taking responsibilty for what he says are his ancestoral sites in Toronto.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinga Mohawk Territory
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All new Yahoo! Mail - Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane.



And Nikki.. generally I make a rule that private emails are just that, private, and this is the first time I have ever posted someone's private email to me, and I only post it due to your flip flopping around about this issue.

Here is another email you sent:

Sego, Keely;

Niawen gowa for the info on Renz. I have passed this onto Chief Stewart Maracle.
He will be glad to get this information.

I am attaching some pictures he emailed to us.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Now, for the sake of hating me, you wish to support a person who has done all of this to your people? It just does not add up.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 20, 2009, 09:37:22 pm
Nikki,

If you dont mind, a few questions..

You are from the Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory? You live there with your people and you know their issues? Your involved with your people? Am I assuming this is correct?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 12:44:48 am
Same reply on BlueJacket board above.

Appears her original post on LONG in Kansas b. TN was possibly DELETED?
If you click on her name in the query boards it will take you to everthing she posted
under that identity.
More interestingly, Keely says she is researching for a Salina Sherriff BUT she asks for help
ON THE MELUNGEONS board! (Black-Indian query board for the SOUTH, not Kansas.)
The page also has queries on Goings and other spellings?
of http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gowenrf/article7.htm
THE AFRICAN ORIGINS OF THE MELUNGEONS
==Dear Cousins==
 
It has been suggested to me that I contact you since my
research is different from most peoples'.  I am the re-
searcher for the Saline County Kansas Sheriff's Depart-
ment.  I am currently researching all our former Sher-
iff's in a attempt to locate decendants so that the de-
partment can locate a photo of the former Sheriff and
give our men who served our county honor and recogni-
tion for their service.
 
I have a Going brick wall.  Thomas J. Going came to Sa-
line County in March of 1866 with his wife Sarah.  He
was Sheriff here from 1872 to 1875. His oldest son,
George was killed in 1872, his second son James married
Georgia Elgin Goodwin on Jan. 1, 1884.  I show a daughter
born to them, Bessie, in 1885, and a son Thomas who died
in 1890 at the age of 2.
 
In 1888 Thomas J. Going had moved to Kansas City.  After
the death of the son of James and Sarah in 1890, they too
left, but I have not found out when or where.
 
Can any of your members help us with this quest?
 
Keely Denning
Saline County, KS Sheriff's Dept.
keely@tri.net
??????

Found HER selling??? at http://www.voy.com/26343/2/34.html
Date Posted: 16:22:18 04/19/01 Thu
Author: Keely
Subject: Re: UP FOR GRABS ***1893 Half Dollar***
In reply to: BobinMO 's message, "UP FOR GRABS ***1893 Half Dollar***" on 08:19:50 04/18/01 Wed
Ifin ya like the really hot stuff... send me your address to keely@tri.net

?????????????????????????????????????????
For Keely's genealogy:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/1871shawnee/page3.htm
Squirrel & Longtail in Shawnee Rolls:
No. Surname First 
468 Longtail Sarah 
469 Longtail Hannah   
470 Longtail Abraham 
471 Lucke Wm   
472 Longtail Martha 
473 Lawrence John   
474 Lawrence Mary 
475 Longtail     
476 Longtail   
477 Longtail   
478 Longtail   
607 Squirrel Daniel
608 Squirrel 
609 Squirrel   
NO surname PANTHER listed, but that is Chippewa?????
(Note that there are many without first names.)

of http://womenhistory.blogspot.com/2008/09/mary-draper-ingles.html
Let us not forget that she also posted that her grandfather? (Name)? on his death-bed
asked her mother and aunt to grab a piece of paper and write down the Draper's Meadows
story and said that light-skinned family members in her family were a throwback
to Mary Ingles? Here's the story she was "offended" by.
(Actually see the book "Follow the River" which offended her)
"Mary's sister-in-law Bettie was adopted by a widowed Shawnee and taken to another
village, and her sons were traded off."
"Will was able to buy back their captured son, Thomas at age 17. The lad was completely
integrated into life as an Indian and had trouble acclimating himself back into colonial
society. He never lost his respect for the Shawnee, nor his love of their culture.
Will served in the American Revolution and died in 1782 at the age of 53, and Mary never
remarried. Her son John built her a 'proper house', but she continued to live in the
windowless log cabin she had shared with her husband, saying she felt safer there."
Yet, Keely says that the Shawnee didn't have food to keep captives and killed them
as in the Marmaduke Swearingen case. So which is it?
This "user-submitted" account of Mary Draper Ingles says her infant daughter was "scalped".
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nwa/draper.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Draper_Ingles  (More on Mary Draper Ingles)
Ingles, John, The Story of Mary Draper Ingles and Son Thomas Ingles, circa 1824.
[This manuscript by Mary's son, who had the story orally from his mother, is at the
University of Virginia library. It is very difficult to read, with little punctuation,
and poor spelling. It has been reproduced in an edition by Roberta Ingles Steele which
retains the eccentricities of the author. This is probably the most significant primary
document.
It does not mention the baby that figures in the narrative of John Peter Hale and
Alexander Thom.]
The Baby....fiction or Keely's grandfather's real story?
Mary's decision to give up her baby to the Indian girl was a selfless, ...
Follow the River is the best survival book I've read., December 1, 1997 ....
an old Dutch settler who's been a captive of the Shawnee far longer than Mary. ...
www.amazon.com/Follow-River-JAMES.../0345338545
Here's a person whose "genealogy" supposedly had the infant girl of Mary Draper Ingles in
their line... Fact or fiction?
There are so many accounts of what did and did not happen in the "capture" of Ingles,
that one cannot seperate fact from fiction.
Yet, Keely has a need to fit her into her lines?
Why?
Now, Thomas, the "captive" supposedly has a 1/2 Shawnee daughter, Rhoda:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ingles/messages/72.html
and Thomas and UKN have an "unnamed infant"
Here's yet another account.
of http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~varussel/indian/46.html
In http://www.books.google.com/
"A new History of Kentucky", Harisson & Klotter, there is a completely different account
of the entire story.  "Mary was adopted as a daughter of a chief" and gave birth to a baby
girl, but nothing is said about what happened to that baby girl.
(There are over 600 books on the subject (for sale)...)
The event took place in what is today PA, (was VA although accounts differ as to
where exactly as some say Vances' Fort (near Ohio River, where today historians say that
Fort was never attacked; others say Lancaster (Eastern PA).  Fact or Fiction?
You can't have it both ways. Either the "Shawnee killed" all of their captives,
as Keely says, due to food shortage, or they adopted "captives" into their tribe/Nation.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 12:47:48 am
Who is the Draper-Ingles female child Keely was talking about that is in her lines, or
is this another Blue Jacket/Swearingen myth?
If she is Shawnee-Chippewa and certain of her family/genealogy,
why is she looking for light skinned Ingles females in her lines?
Could it be that her associates question her "Indian" lineage because as they say,
"She looks a little Indian", or because they called the family she says she is part of...
and they don't know her as family? Her acquaintances say she is a genealogist,
in her mind.
Any genealogy queries she has posted must be taken with a bit of wonder, because she can
easily post and say, "It's not me I'm doing the research for, but my husband, the Salina
Sherriff's office, etc."
If she is so sure of her genealogy, why not post it?
And, as she says in the genealogy forums, pay for Walter Renz's MtDNA test since she offered.
That should clear things up for his mothers, mothers, mother.
Posted by: Keely Denning (ID *****5275)
2002:
Hello,
I am not a Draper, I am not a Ingles, I am a Shawnee Indian woman who has been raised with the traditional stories of our people.
In May, 1959, my grandfather was speaking of our family, he was dying, my aunt handed my mother pen and paper to have her write down what he was saying. He told the story of Drapers Meadow, said it happened so long ago, no one really remembers when, that a white female infant was taken into our family, he mentioned the names of Sopronia, Nancy, and Oua-Qua-Tha but we do not know if he is speaking of that child. When children were born into our family, who were of lighter skin, he said they were a "thowback" to the white of long ago.
I do not know if DNA can be done due to the fact that the child was female, and my grandfather is obviously male. The X cromozone to the Y cromozone in the testing is complicated to understand.
I am not here to say I am of the Ingles child, I am here to say I am glad to see there are many descendants. And to share my family story with those who are interested.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ingles/messages/271.html
There are 199 SQUIRREL names in www.familysearch.org/
NOT just Cherokee, but England as well.
Sources Searched
Matches were found only in the sources listed below. Click on a source to see more matches for that source. 
• Ancestral File - over 25 
• Census/1880 US Census - over 25 
• Census/1881 British Census - over 25 
• Census/1881 Canadian Census - 19 
• IGI/British Isles - over 25 
• IGI/Central America - 4 
• IGI/North America - over 16 
• IGI/World Misc. - 10 
• Pedigree Resource File - over 25 
• U.S. Social Security Death Index - over 25 
Some of the actual images may be available for free at
http://labs.familysearch.org/
(The Ancestral Files are "user submitted", which means anyone can type anything without
documentation.
For example:
Husband's Name
 (Sololy) SQUIRREL (AFN:1T68-C2R)  Pedigree 
 
 Born:  Abt 1770  Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
 Married:    Place:     
 
 Father:   
 Mother:   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Wife's Name
 Elizabeth HALFBREED (AFN:1T68-C30)  Pedigree 
 
 Born:  Abt 1778  Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
 Married:    Place:     
 
 Father:  HALFBREED WILL (AFN:1T68-HLR)  Family 
 Mother:  Gulesi (AFN:1T68-HM0)   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Children
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 1.  Sex  Name   
  F Tiana SQUIRREL (AFN:1T68-C7S)  Pedigree 
 
    Born:  1790/1800   Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 2.  Sex  Name   
  F Nannie SQUIRREL (AFN:1T68-C6L)  Pedigree 
 
    Born:  1790/1800   Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 3.  Sex  Name   
  M William SQUIRREL (AFN:1T68-C5D)  Pedigree 
 
    Born:  1790/1800   Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 4.  Sex  Name   
  M Joseph WALKER (AFN:1T68-C46)  Pedigree 
 
    Born:  1790/1800   Place:  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Parents of Halfbreed Elizabeth:
Gulesi (AFN: 1T68-HM0)  Pedigree
 Sex:  F  Family 
   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Event(s)
 Birth:   Abt 1749   
  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Parents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Marriage(s)
 Spouse:  HALFBREED WILL (AFN: 1T68-HLR)  Family 
 Marriage:  1767 
  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America 
   
 Marriage:  1767 
  Cherokee Nation, East, Native America 
   
       
(No further info) CHEROKEE EAST
There are NO SQUIRREL surnames in the 1880 U.S.Federal Census that are Cherokee.
Would need the pay for sites for the 1900 Indian Census and The Dawes Final Roll.
As far as Social Security Death Indexes; since you so loudly posted that you pay
taxes, etc. in your recent posts in genforum, then your real Father should be listed
in Kansas SSDI since you were "born and raised all of your life" in Kansas. But not
one of the SQUIRREL names is from Kansas. Oh, but you were/are enrolled on Cherokee Nation
Oklahoma. Then, one of the following might be your Father/Grandfather?:
Eli SQUIRREL   
    Birth Date: 11 Apr 1907 
    Death Date: Sep 1980 
    Social Security Number:  445-20-3895 
    State or Territory Where Number Was Issued:  Oklahoma
 
  Death Residence Localities
    ZIP Code: 74352 
    Localities:  Locust Grove, Mayes, Oklahoma
Jim SQUIRREL   
    Birth Date: 30 Jan 1901 
    Death Date: Feb 1975 
    Social Security Number:  443-24-5155 
    State or Territory Where Number Was Issued:  Oklahoma
 
  Death Residence Localities
    ZIP Code: 74960 
    Localities:  Stilwell, Adair, Oklahoma
 
Jim SQUIRREL   
    Birth Date: 13 Dec 1945 
    Death Date: 5 Jul 2006 
    Social Security Number:  442-46-1727 
    State or Territory Where Number Was Issued:  Oklahoma
 
  Death Residence Localities
    ZIP Code: 74150 
    Localities:  Tulsa, Tulsa, Oklahoma
 
Joe? who died in California?
Mike SQUIRREL   
    Birth Date: 1 May 1926 
    Death Date: 12 Jul 2004 
    Social Security Number:  443-24-1930 
    State or Territory Where Number Was Issued:  Oklahoma
 
  Death Residence Localities
    ZIP Code: 74403 
    Localities:  Muskogee, Muskogee, Oklahoma
 
(this one likely closer to your possible father's age; Keely you did the same thing with
Longtail, so don't cry "foul"!)
There are more, but not one born in Kansas.
As per SAM CHARLEY married to Betsy Panther Charley:
1900 U. S. Census Image shows:
Sam Charley as son living on the CREEK Nation, Oklahoma
0188 Township 7 N Range 8 E (that part in Creek Nation )
(These parties do not know what month they were were borne; Handwritten)
137 137 Little Charley Head of Household 50 b. I.T Parents born ALABAMA,  a LANDLORD, employed 5 months, can't read, write, speak English, Owns Home 
        Louisiana Charley (maiden name unknown) 50 b. I.T. Parents b. ALABAMA (married 28 years, mother had 8 children, 5 living in 1900)
        Dave, son
        Addie, dau
        Bruner, Willie, Son-in-law
        Sam, son Indian Male b. 1882 18
        Louisa, dau
        Lucinda, dau (all are In. (Indian)   
 
So this is your great-great-grandfather and your grandfather Sam who told the Draper-Ingles
story on his deathbed? The census image clearly states CREEK INDIAN, Keely, so which is it?
Should be able to find much more. Glad to help you out.
(Some dates and ages not typed.)
Can search images at http:://www.labs.familysearch.org/
Just type Charley.
1900 U.S.Census: Sam SQUIRREL
Sam Squirrel with Betsy____Unknown (Panther) Squirrel
Oklahoma, Cherokee Nation 0025 Twp. 22 N. Range 23 East
111 111 Squirrel, Sam Head In M Oct 1856 49 M 20 years(All born Indian Territory) employed 3 months Farmer (Owns) can speak Eng., Can't read write
           "    , Betsy Wife In F May 1854 43 M 20 years NO CHILDREN 0/0 (All born I.T.)
NO children? Then how are you related?
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 01:09:15 am
Am I logged on to NAFPS or Indianz.combatzone?? Why dont you take your trashing over ther and leave this forum to discuss frauds

I agree. Because Walter Renz is not a fraud!!

Well Nikki, the facts speak for themselves, and Walter is in enough trouble on his own. And if being in trouble with the US Indian Arts and Crafts Act is not enough to prove this group is fake, then I wont try to convince you otherwise.. There are plenty of people who do know this guy is a fraud, his group is a fraud.

Here is your own email to me Nikki, a email of which you state Walters claims do not add up, that he is on a "to be delt with" list (maybe that was just another one of your empty threats?) So Nikki, here it is again, your own email:

Sego, Keely;


   Yes some of us here in Canada met Renz 2 times, as result of contact he made with one of my aquaintenances.

   There are a lot questions that we have about him , as much of what he told us doesn't add up. Especially, when his own people , this Chaliawa Nation really don't support what he does. They want him to do the work for him , but have have not given him any support, financially or physically. He basically told us that his mother, his wife and himself are the ones that do all of the work. The whole time he was here his wife called him about every 5 minutes, which ran up a huge cell phone bill. Then she will also call others up here running up their cell phone bills trying to reach him. He also wrote a cheque for 172.00 that bounced and he has dsihonoured by not covering it, after making several promises to. He also used and mouched off of people's goodness when he was here, promising to return to help us take care of the mounds issue in Toronto. He made several promises and guarentees of return, failing to keep his word. One of our chiefs at Tyendinaga, let me and my aquaintence know that his name is on a "to be dealt with list", because of his lack of keeping his committment to our people, and stating he would be by Stewart Maracle's side to support him. He made a big mistake with Stewart to make such a committment, and then not follow through with it. He is in toruble with the men's councils up here because of this and other things.
There were also questions about his genealogy as certain things do not add up.
Any blanks you can help us fill would greatly be appreciated. Renz also has been warned, that because he did not show up at the Clanmother's meeting at Six Nations Grand Territory last wednesday, his name would be mudd up here. Since then there has been no contact with him, nor have we heard anything from him. Again suspicion that he isn't who has told us he is and that he has no intention in clearing matters up here or taking responsibilty for what he says are his ancestoral sites in Toronto.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinga Mohawk Territory
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All new Yahoo! Mail - Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane.



And Nikki.. generally I make a rule that private emails are just that, private, and this is the first time I have ever posted someone's private email to me, and I only post it due to your flip flopping around about this issue.

Here is another email you sent:

Sego, Keely;

Niawen gowa for the info on Renz. I have passed this onto Chief Stewart Maracle.
He will be glad to get this information.

I am attaching some pictures he emailed to us.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Now, for the sake of hating me, you wish to support a person who has done all of this to your people? It just does not add up.


 You are hereby to cease and desist posting private emails that you do not have prior permission to post. This issue will be taken to the next level unless you cease and desist immediately.

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendianga Mohawk Territory

Oh Nikki, Nikki, Nikki, you have been posting other peoples private emails.. the post of which this whole thread was moved to this forum begins with a private email from Renz about a guy named Johnson. And then you went on to post a private email of mine... Now you want to complain about private emails being posted?

Should the rules apply to everyone else except you?



Walter Renz  « 1 2 3 4 5 »       Keely

Keely ;

And who started this thread to begin with? Who took the liberty to cut and paste from another thread about someone else and start it with this thread? Was it you or your alter-ego?
Since you seem not to take responsibility for anything you have stated, any accusations you have made. We are finding that many of your accusations on Renz are not bearing the truth that you promote with your OTAH! And it is aparent that you are a real nutcase as these are the comments that are being made by many by you. And talk about harassment, I have never contacted any of your relatives, as others have who know them and the word has been passed on, that they don't know who you are and they think you are crazy! It's apparent by your numerous attacks on those that oppose on every board that you are apart of. Including this one. I do believe that it was suggested you take your rants elsewhere , to the boards that you are currently, and leave this one to true frauds. This is not the place to attack people who are doing good for the people. As far as Walter Renz goes, whatever personal issues he has, that is between him and that individual and not the whole world. He has done nothing to bring harm to our Confederacy or to our people. He only came here to help, and he also came here not looking to start any casinos, as others have tried to do. He has no interest in that nor does his people. Everyone gets into a financial situation at one point in their life, and because he is, is no reason for you to beat him down nor anyone else. To be beat someone down, when they are down, is a violation of our Great Law. You have definately showed your true colours in this forum as well as many others, and you are showing yourself as not one of us!  People like yourself are termed apples!
And we are better off with people working with us , who are true-hearts and not apples. For the apples eventually become rotten, and ruins everything good for the future generations!
As far as him being on "a to be dealt with" list, instead of his being on that list, it is yours!
Your first warning!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory





Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 01:11:02 am
More to come on Keely's accusations against Walters people. She again is going to lose this battle!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 01:27:19 am
Nikki,

I am not afraid of you or your idle threats.. or empty threats, which ever...

You continue to try and post things and they have no bearing upon me.

You continue to confuse the issue, you are busing posting stuff, making claims I posted when in many cases I was answering a post... I dont know how much more you can be confused! LOL

My Squirrel family is not of the Eastern Cherokee, I dont know how much more you can be lost when looking to the Qualla for answers about me... I am not related to anyone there... so you wont find me in those records  ;)

I know for a fact no one is emailing you with information about little ole me... because Nikki, no one really cares...

You wont find my PANTHER family in the Cherokee information, its because they were not Cherokee, DUH... but there are plenty of Panthers! You just got yourself so lost that you have forgotten what your true target is and your grasping at straws.

I feel sorry for you Nikki, your like a rabid dog bitting at anything that comes by... it is as if your in a frenzy and so blind to what is in front of you. I am concerned for your health because you could have a high blood pressure problem, it seems something is not right in the way you are posting.

Oh, and before I forget, your little "threat" you made... you know, the one where I am supposed to be at the top of the list  ;) just who is going to carry out that threat Nikki? Cheif Stewart Marcale? Am I supposed to be afraid?  ;D ;D ;D

Again, I ask you, do you live at the Six Nations? Do you know your people? Are you involved within your tribe? You act as if you know the chief really well, do you?



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 01:51:26 am
Nikki,

I know for a fact no one is emailing you with information about little ole me... because Nikki, no one really cares...


That again is where you are wrong!! You don't know that for a fact. This quote alone shows how ridiculous you are. Do think that you are in touch with everyone in the world?? If so, than you are only fooling yourself.

Do you really think people care enough about this situation that they would be emailing you? Your email address is hidden... how can all these people suddenly be emailing you? Why would they want to?

You dont have any power with the Mohawk Nation, you are not even known by the Mohawk Nation. You dont know Chief Stewart Maracle as you had written me that you were in contact with him.. aint that true Nikki... you dont know him, you made that stuff up about him didnt you...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 02:13:35 am
Nikki,

Remember this email you sent me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Girl
To: Keely
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Renz


Sego Keely;

    We always give people the benefit of the doubt first. It is our way to take people at their word until, they prove otherwise. Renz has proven otherwise, that his word is no good, therefore we are unable to believe anything he says. He is a liar, and is like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

He doesn't walk his talk! He is also a ripp off artist!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 


That email is what this thread was supposed to be about... it was supposed to be about Walter Renz being a fraud and hurting people. You got angry with Al because Al agreed that there could be a problem when a law is broken with the Arts and Crafts Act, you said we were wrong, Walter was not hurting anyone... Yet, here is your email speaking of the rip-off cause by Walter. THIS is what this thread is supposed to be about... and I would not mind one bit if Al decided to delete ALL posts by you, by me, regarding issues not about Walter Renz.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 02:14:15 am
I guess you are more worried about your name being on a to be dealt list, the reason why you are so fevershly trying to find out who he is??

You keep this up, you will find out who he is!!


Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 02:18:06 am
Nikki,

Remember this email you sent me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Girl
To: Keely
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Renz


Sego Keely;

    We always give people the benefit of the doubt first. It is our way to take people at their word until, they prove otherwise. Renz has proven otherwise, that his word is no good, therefore we are unable to believe anything he says. He is a liar, and is like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

He doesn't walk his talk! He is also a ripp off artist!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 


That email is what this thread was supposed to be about... it was supposed to be about Walter Renz being a fraud and hurting people. You got angry with Al because Al agreed that there could be a problem when a law is broken with the Arts and Crafts Act, you said we were wrong, Walter was not hurting anyone... Yet, here is your email speaking of the rip-off cause by Walter. THIS is what this thread is supposed to be about... and I would not mind one bit if Al decided to delete ALL posts by you, by me, regarding issues not about Walter Renz.


 You do not have my permission to use any of my emails here. Either cease and desist or further action will be taken against you!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 02:20:01 am
I guess you are more worried about your name being on a to be dealt list, the reason why you are so fevershly trying to find out who he is??

You keep this up, you will find out who he is!!





I am trying to watch Nancy Grace! Stop making me laugh! ROFLMRAO! Come on Nikki... send him after me LOL I am so scared.. NOT LOL dang I am gonna have to catch Nancy on a later show tonight... you are so intertaining!

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 02:21:16 am
Nikki,

I know for a fact no one is emailing you with information about little ole me... because Nikki, no one really cares...


That again is where you are wrong!! You don't know that for a fact. This quote alone shows how ridiculous you are. Do think that you are in touch with everyone in the world?? If so, than you are only fooling yourself.

Do you really think people care enough about this situation that they would be emailing you? Your email address is hidden... how can all these people suddenly be emailing you? Why would they want to?

You dont have any power with the Mohawk Nation, you are not even known by the Mohawk Nation. You dont know Chief Stewart Maracle as you had written me that you were in contact with him.. aint that true Nikki... you dont know him, you made that stuff up about him didnt you...


 

 Wrong again!!

OK I cant keep this game up with you Nikki, I just wanted to see you say you knew Chief Stewart Maracle... time and time again you have said that, both here and in emails to me... darn near every email you sent me you wrote "Chief Stewart Maracle"... then a friendly person sent me something, something that went zing right over my head... and that person was RIGHT!!

There is NO ONE named "Chief Stewart Maracle" in the Mohawk Nation... so if you were so involved with your people as you claim, I would think you would know your Chief's name!

His name is Chief R. Donald Maracle

Box 98, 48B Bayshore Rd. Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory, ON, K0K 1X0

Wow Nikki, I guess you really knew him really well... you couldnt even get his name right...




Wrong again R. Donald Maracle is a band council chief not a traditional chief who carries a title.

Therefore you really don't know as much as you thought about who our real chiefs are. Band Council chiefs are not considered real chiefs here. They are employees of the colonial government. And being you are a volunteer for the sheriffs department where you live, that also makes you part of the same colonial system.




Oh NO! Are you saying your tribe's website is LYING???? Oh for goodness sakes!!!!!!!!!  LOL Nikki.... it is on the website:

http://www.mbq-tmt.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=0&page_id=43


Band Council Chiefs are elected chiefs and are not traditional chiefs. Traditional Chiefs are not elected. They are raised up through up our nations, our clans, and receive their titles through the clanmothers. So I strongly suggest you stop this now!! Further action will be taken against you! As you have messed with the wrong people this time!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 02:23:41 am
Nikki,

Remember this email you sent me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Girl
To: Keely
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Renz


Sego Keely;

    We always give people the benefit of the doubt first. It is our way to take people at their word until, they prove otherwise. Renz has proven otherwise, that his word is no good, therefore we are unable to believe anything he says. He is a liar, and is like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

He doesn't walk his talk! He is also a ripp off artist!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 


That email is what this thread was supposed to be about... it was supposed to be about Walter Renz being a fraud and hurting people. You got angry with Al because Al agreed that there could be a problem when a law is broken with the Arts and Crafts Act, you said we were wrong, Walter was not hurting anyone... Yet, here is your email speaking of the rip-off cause by Walter. THIS is what this thread is supposed to be about... and I would not mind one bit if Al decided to delete ALL posts by you, by me, regarding issues not about Walter Renz.


 You do not have my permission to use any of my emails here. Either cease and desist or further action will be taken against you!!

hAHAHAHAHAHA Your kidding right? I addressed that issue with you earlier... You cant have it both ways. You have been posting other peoples emails without permission. Why shouldnt the same rules apply to you?

I did make you a offer, remove everyone elses emails and I will gladly remove yours... You didnt take me up on that offer I made hours ago... You dont like people seeing what you wrote about Walter in private do you? Dont like it a bit...

I am not afraid of any "action" you seem to think you can produce.

You have a nice night
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 02:30:54 am
Remember this email you sent me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Girl
To: Keely
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Renz


Sego Keely;

    We always give people the benefit of the doubt first. It is our way to take people at their word until, they prove otherwise. Renz has proven otherwise, that his word is no good, therefore we are unable to believe anything he says. He is a liar, and is like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

He doesn't walk his talk! He is also a ripp off artist!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 


That email is what this thread was supposed to be about... it was supposed to be about Walter Renz being a fraud and hurting people. You got angry with Al because Al agreed that there could be a problem when a law is broken with the Arts and Crafts Act, you said we were wrong, Walter was not hurting anyone... Yet, here is your email speaking of the rip-off cause by Walter. THIS is what this thread is supposed to be about... and I would not mind one bit if Al decided to delete ALL posts by you, by me, regarding issues not about Walter Renz.


[/quote]  You do not have my permission to use any of my emails here. Either cease and desist or further action will be taken against you!!
[/quote]

hAHAHAHAHAHA Your kidding right? I addressed that issue with you earlier... You cant have it both ways. You have been posting other peoples emails without permission. Why shouldnt the same rules apply to you?

I did make you a offer, remove everyone elses emails and I will gladly remove yours... You didnt take me up on that offer I made hours ago... You dont like people seeing what you wrote about Walter in private do you? Dont like it a bit...

I am not afraid of any "action" you seem to think you can produce.

You have a nice night
[/quote]

Some of your own medicine!!

You have just been sent a personal message by Keely on NAFPS Forum.

IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply to this email.

The message they sent you was:

This idiot Walter Renz is giving you problems? Oh do tell.. but in a email please... and I will give you information on my family to prove he is a fraud..

kdenning@cox.net

Don Rapp and Don Greene are two different people... Don Greene used to always email me and I ignored him, we have known about his books for years and know they are full of mis-information.. then one day out of the blue I got a weird email from him telling me he is Shawnee no matter what anyone says.. he had his underwear in a wad... I was not able to contact Greene over this issue as his email kept bouncing, so I emailed his partner, Noel Shulz, and he did write back concerned how pissed my family is.. and promised to forward my message on to Don Greene.

Don Rapp started his bull long ago on AOL.. here is a link to the whole story: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.12/martin.html

[/quote]


Your first PM to me


   Date  Subject From  
  
 July 14, 2009, 03:55:53 PM (No subject) Niiki  
_porcupine  
 July 19, 2009, 01:49:01 PM Niiki bls926  
 
 
Niiki

 Online

Posts: 208



   (No subject)
« Sent to: Keely on: July 14, 2009, 03:55:53 PM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. » Quote Reply Remove  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know of the Walter Renz/ Longtail?

Many people are  who he is? Do you have any info on him?



Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


 
 
 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: debbieredbear on July 21, 2009, 02:36:03 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 02:37:58 am
Nikki,

Remember this email you sent me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Girl
To: Keely
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: Renz


Sego Keely;

    We always give people the benefit of the doubt first. It is our way to take people at their word until, they prove otherwise. Renz has proven otherwise, that his word is no good, therefore we are unable to believe anything he says. He is a liar, and is like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

He doesn't walk his talk! He is also a ripp off artist!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 


That email is what this thread was supposed to be about... it was supposed to be about Walter Renz being a fraud and hurting people. You got angry with Al because Al agreed that there could be a problem when a law is broken with the Arts and Crafts Act, you said we were wrong, Walter was not hurting anyone... Yet, here is your email speaking of the rip-off cause by Walter. THIS is what this thread is supposed to be about... and I would not mind one bit if Al decided to delete ALL posts by you, by me, regarding issues not about Walter Renz.


 You do not have my permission to use any of my emails here. Either cease and desist or further action will be taken against you!!

hAHAHAHAHAHA Your kidding right? I addressed that issue with you earlier... You cant have it both ways. You have been posting other peoples emails without permission. Why shouldnt the same rules apply to you?

I did make you a offer, remove everyone elses emails and I will gladly remove yours... You didnt take me up on that offer I made hours ago... You dont like people seeing what you wrote about Walter in private do you? Dont like it a bit...

I am not afraid of any "action" you seem to think you can produce.

You have a nice night

Some of your own medicine!!

You have just been sent a personal message by Keely on NAFPS Forum.

IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply to this email.

The message they sent you was:

This idiot Walter Renz is giving you problems? Oh do tell.. but in a email please... and I will give you information on my family to prove he is a fraud..

kdenning@cox.net

Don Rapp and Don Greene are two different people... Don Greene used to always email me and I ignored him, we have known about his books for years and know they are full of mis-information.. then one day out of the blue I got a weird email from him telling me he is Shawnee no matter what anyone says.. he had his underwear in a wad... I was not able to contact Greene over this issue as his email kept bouncing, so I emailed his partner, Noel Shulz, and he did write back concerned how pissed my family is.. and promised to forward my message on to Don Greene.

Don Rapp started his bull long ago on AOL.. here is a link to the whole story: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.12/martin.html



Your first PM to me


   Date  Subject From 
 March 07, 2009, 03:52:56 PM Re: I need your help sky 
 July 14, 2009, 03:55:53 PM (No subject) Niiki 
 July 14, 2009, 06:13:44 PM Re: (No subject) Niiki 
 July 14, 2009, 07:51:37 PM Re: (No subject) Niiki 
 July 14, 2009, 09:15:07 PM Re: How come I cant educatedindian 
 July 18, 2009, 08:08:26 AM Re: How come I cant educatedindian 
 July 19, 2009, 12:48:17 PM Re: Thank you Moma_porcupine 
 July 19, 2009, 01:49:01 PM Niiki bls926 
 Today at 02:51:27 PM Chief Maracle nighthawk 
 Today at 06:14:01 PM Re: Chief Maracle nighthawk 
 Today at 08:09:41 PM Rattlebone Moma_porcupine 

Pages: [1]     


 Author Topic
sky

 Offline

Posts: 94


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


    Re: I need your help
« Sent to: Keely on: March 07, 2009, 03:52:56 PM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. » Quote Reply Remove   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh keely I am so sorry about your mom ((((((keely))))))).  Are you doing okay?

That is good to know about the social security.  I think that because the man is around 70 wouldn't he get survivors benefits?  Also they have at least one daughter under 16.

I think I will email the pd.  He's posting on a bunch of different forums and is becoming really out there when people don't agree with his ideas (on one of the forums he threatened to voodoo people, lol).  I found a poem he posted about how after his wife died he felt like a teenager hormonally and was saying that he felt more like his daughter's brother but that he was sexually attracted to her.  Creepy creepy stuff.

Thanks for your help. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.
 
 
 
Niiki

 Online

Posts: 208



   (No subject)
« Sent to: Keely on: July 14, 2009, 03:55:53 PM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. » Quote Reply Remove   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know of the Walter Renz/ Longtail?

Many people are  who he is? Do you have any info on him?



Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


 
 
 
 it's funny you keep posting the same messages more than once to make it look like I sent you lots of messages. The sign of a very unstable woman, that's you Keely as many others have commented and said the same thing you are unstable! And how you make it seem like I wrote things to you. Any one can copy and paste emails, edit them add to them to make it look people wrote things. It looks like you are pretty good at doctoring emails!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 02:47:05 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.

I am really not trying to insut Nikki, but the idle threats do get rather redundant.. that and some kind of made up genealogy she has for me  :D

I have stated over and over againt that Al is more than welcomed to delete most of the posts, they are old, they are boring, they are dragging out. Nikki and I are both spamming!

The posts have become off topic, the topic is supposed to be Walter Renz. My family genealogy I put up can stay, because Al told me I needed to prove my claims that Walter is not of my family... so I did... I put up links to the family cemetery and compared the information to Walters writings showing that the dates he has cannot be true, he claims Henry died many years before he really did die, he also claims Abraham is buried in Ohio, which my link to Oklahoma University shows the Longtail cemetery and Abraham is buried in his own burial grounds in Oklahoma...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 02:55:49 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.

I am really not trying to insut Nikki, but the idle threats do get rather redundant.. that and some kind of made up genealogy she has for me  :D

I have stated over and over againt that Al is more than welcomed to delete most of the posts, they are old, they are boring, they are dragging out. Nikki and I are both spamming!

The posts have become off topic, the topic is supposed to be Walter Renz. My family genealogy I put up can stay, because Al told me I needed to prove my claims that Walter is not of my family... so I did... I put up links to the family cemetery and compared the information to Walters writings showing that the dates he has cannot be true, he claims Henry died many years before he really did die, he also claims Abraham is buried in Ohio, which my link to Oklahoma University shows the Longtail cemetery and Abraham is buried in his own burial grounds in Oklahoma...


The whole topic needs to be deleted and disabled before, any legal action takes place! Keely needs to take her beef with Walter directly as she was told before, and not on internet blogs, by talking with him directly. Otherwise she had better be prepared to provide evidence in a court of law soon. Maybe that's the lesson she needs to learn, that she cannot take down people who are under our protection without severe backlash. I am sure that because of the damage that Keely has done to Walter and his people, could cost her dearly! I hope you have a large bank account, because libel and slander can be quite costly!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 03:04:55 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.

I am really not trying to insut Nikki, but the idle threats do get rather redundant.. that and some kind of made up genealogy she has for me  :D

I have stated over and over againt that Al is more than welcomed to delete most of the posts, they are old, they are boring, they are dragging out. Nikki and I are both spamming!

The posts have become off topic, the topic is supposed to be Walter Renz. My family genealogy I put up can stay, because Al told me I needed to prove my claims that Walter is not of my family... so I did... I put up links to the family cemetery and compared the information to Walters writings showing that the dates he has cannot be true, he claims Henry died many years before he really did die, he also claims Abraham is buried in Ohio, which my link to Oklahoma University shows the Longtail cemetery and Abraham is buried in his own burial grounds in Oklahoma...


The whole topic needs to be deleted and disabled before, any legal action takes place! Keely needs to take her beef with Walter directly as she was told before, and not on internet blogs, by talking with him directly. Otherwise she had better be prepared to provide evidence in a court of law soon. Maybe that's the lesson she needs to learn, that she cannot take down people who are under our protection without severe backlash. I am sure that because of the damage that Keely has done to Walter and his people, could cost her dearly! I hope you have a large bank account, because libel and slander can be quite costly!!

Nikki,

There is nothing more I would love than to have Walter Renz sue me.. I would love it! There is nothing more I would love than getting Walter Renz under oath making his claims to my family. He would have to provide government proof of his claims, something he cant do, but I on the other hand, can and would produce government records. I would love for Walter to be hit with perjury! I would post a court room play by play online. I have lots of evidence, even your emails to what you said he did to the Six Nations...

FYI, libel is written, slander is spoken... and it is not libel or slander when the statement made are true  :)

No matter what, Walter is under no one's protection, and neither of us are a part of your jurisdiction!

Oh it would be even greater to get Walter into a federal court! Oh how awesome that would be!

Does the Mohawk Nation know you are making statements on their behalf here on this message board?

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 03:24:39 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.

I am really not trying to insut Nikki, but the idle threats do get rather redundant.. that and some kind of made up genealogy she has for me  :D

I have stated over and over againt that Al is more than welcomed to delete most of the posts, they are old, they are boring, they are dragging out. Nikki and I are both spamming!

The posts have become off topic, the topic is supposed to be Walter Renz. My family genealogy I put up can stay, because Al told me I needed to prove my claims that Walter is not of my family... so I did... I put up links to the family cemetery and compared the information to Walters writings showing that the dates he has cannot be true, he claims Henry died many years before he really did die, he also claims Abraham is buried in Ohio, which my link to Oklahoma University shows the Longtail cemetery and Abraham is buried in his own burial grounds in Oklahoma...


The whole topic needs to be deleted and disabled before, any legal action takes place! Keely needs to take her beef with Walter directly as she was told before, and not on internet blogs, by talking with him directly. Otherwise she had better be prepared to provide evidence in a court of law soon. Maybe that's the lesson she needs to learn, that she cannot take down people who are under our protection without severe backlash. I am sure that because of the damage that Keely has done to Walter and his people, could cost her dearly! I hope you have a large bank account, because libel and slander can be quite costly!!

Nikki,

There is nothing more I would love than to have Walter Renz sue me.. I would love it! There is nothing more I would love than getting Walter Renz under oath making his claims to my family. He would have to provide government proof of his claims, something he cant do, but I on the other hand, can and would produce government records. I would love for Walter to be hit with perjury! I would post a court room play by play online. I have lots of evidence, even your emails to what you said he did to the Six Nations...

FYI, libel is written, slander is spoken... and it is not libel or slander when the statement made are true  :)

No matter what, Walter is under no one's protection, and neither of us are a part of your jurisdiction!

Oh it would be even greater to get Walter into a federal court! Oh how awesome that would be!

Does the Mohawk Nation know you are making statements on their behalf here on this message board?



And in your case the statements that you have made are not true!! Oh yes Walter is under our protection! Wherever you are getting this info from is definitely not coming from anyone who knows what they are talking about! I am not speaking on behalf of the Mohawk Nation, as I am only speaking as a Mohawk Woman, which I have a right to do and to use my voice, which by the way I do not have to have your permission or anyone's permission to do. And you say your family, a family who really doesn't know who you are???  Can you provide government proof, as what's apparent from your previous posts on prior genealogy boards you are still searching for who you are!! If you have government proof of who you are then you wouldn't be searching for who you are. Oh yes you have what my whole 3 emails! Wow! Really a lot of evidence, which you already posted! Get real, woman!
And you are wrong about neither one of us being part of our jurisdiction!
That will be up to Walter the kind of action he wants to take against you for the damages you have caused him and his people.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Ann on July 21, 2009, 03:28:51 am
Nikki you sound like a sensitive soul...do what i am going to do and stay away from this forum and these people...God bless!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 03:30:55 am
Nikki you sound like a sensitive soul...do what i am going to do and stay away from this forum and these people...God bless!

Niawen gowa Ann for your wisdom!!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 05:09:44 am
C'mon you two. Al asked you to stop with the insults and stuff. And Nikki, don't post people's email addresses without their permission.

I am really not trying to insut Nikki, but the idle threats do get rather redundant.. that and some kind of made up genealogy she has for me  :D

I have stated over and over againt that Al is more than welcomed to delete most of the posts, they are old, they are boring, they are dragging out. Nikki and I are both spamming!

The posts have become off topic, the topic is supposed to be Walter Renz. My family genealogy I put up can stay, because Al told me I needed to prove my claims that Walter is not of my family... so I did... I put up links to the family cemetery and compared the information to Walters writings showing that the dates he has cannot be true, he claims Henry died many years before he really did die, he also claims Abraham is buried in Ohio, which my link to Oklahoma University shows the Longtail cemetery and Abraham is buried in his own burial grounds in Oklahoma...


The whole topic needs to be deleted and disabled before, any legal action takes place! Keely needs to take her beef with Walter directly as she was told before, and not on internet blogs, by talking with him directly. Otherwise she had better be prepared to provide evidence in a court of law soon. Maybe that's the lesson she needs to learn, that she cannot take down people who are under our protection without severe backlash. I am sure that because of the damage that Keely has done to Walter and his people, could cost her dearly! I hope you have a large bank account, because libel and slander can be quite costly!!

Nikki,

There is nothing more I would love than to have Walter Renz sue me.. I would love it! There is nothing more I would love than getting Walter Renz under oath making his claims to my family. He would have to provide government proof of his claims, something he cant do, but I on the other hand, can and would produce government records. I would love for Walter to be hit with perjury! I would post a court room play by play online. I have lots of evidence, even your emails to what you said he did to the Six Nations...

FYI, libel is written, slander is spoken... and it is not libel or slander when the statement made are true  :)

No matter what, Walter is under no one's protection, and neither of us are a part of your jurisdiction!

Oh it would be even greater to get Walter into a federal court! Oh how awesome that would be!

Does the Mohawk Nation know you are making statements on their behalf here on this message board?



And in your case the statements that you have made are not true!! Oh yes Walter is under our protection! Wherever you are getting this info from is definitely not coming from anyone who knows what they are talking about! I am not speaking on behalf of the Mohawk Nation, as I am only speaking as a Mohawk Woman, which I have a right to do and to use my voice, which by the way I do not have to have your permission or anyone's permission to do. And you say your family, a family who really doesn't know who you are???  Can you provide government proof, as what's apparent from your previous posts on prior genealogy boards you are still searching for who you are!! If you have government proof of who you are then you wouldn't be searching for who you are. Oh yes you have what my whole 3 emails! Wow! Really a lot of evidence, which you already posted! Get real, woman!
And you are wrong about neither one of us being part of our jurisdiction!
That will be up to Walter the kind of action he wants to take against you for the damages you have caused him and his people.

Nikki, there you go again... talking about stuff you dont know nothing about... you really do need to relax!

I can document myself, its not a problem Nikki, so dont worry about me... my tribes can document me, and my family... Indian census records can document my family, my allotment can document me, and lets not forget the several times in my life of which I have gotten monies from the BIA, of which one must prove they are Indian of that tribe to get the pay... Oh, and you missed something, I was educated at Chilocco Indian Boarding School...

Yes Nikki, I will lose no sleep tonight..

I am not in your jurisdiction... my job is not controlled by your CANADIAN territory...

You have a real nice night Nikki... I have a busy day tomorrow, I work you know.. I have many things to do including sending my eBay sells off to their new owners...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 21, 2009, 05:25:06 am
Niiki, I'm still wondering about your change in opinion and attitude concerning Walter Renz. Yesterday, I asked you to explain. You chose to ignore my post, so I'm asking again. Why the flip flop?

A week ago you stated that y'all were looking for him, he owed people money, his genealogy didn't add up, he'd mooched off people, he didn't keep his word, he'd written bad checks, he was in trouble with the men's council. Basically, he was a worthless fraud.

Now you're acting like he's a relative. You've stated that he has the protection of the Six Nations. You've also threatened lawsuits. (Idle threats that remind me of a couple people who used to post here at NAFPS.)

Do you speak for the Haudenosaunee? Do you speak for the Mohawk Nation? Do they know you are throwing their name around like this on a public forum? I don't know who you are, Niiki; but I'm fixing to find out.

I will be contacting the Mohawk Nation, as well as the Tyendinaga Reserve.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 11:42:28 am
Niiki, I'm still wondering about your change in opinion and attitude concerning Walter Renz. Yesterday, I asked you to explain. You chose to ignore my post, so I'm asking again. Why the flip flop?

A week ago you stated that y'all were looking for him, he owed people money, his genealogy didn't add up, he'd mooched off people, he didn't keep his word, he'd written bad checks, he was in trouble with the men's council. Basically, he was a worthless fraud.

Now you're acting like he's a relative. You've stated that he has the protection of the Six Nations. You've also threatened lawsuits. (Idle threats that remind me of a couple people who used to post here at NAFPS.)

Do you speak for the Haudenosaunee? Do you speak for the Mohawk Nation? Do they know you are throwing their name around like this on a public forum? I don't know who you are, Niiki; but I'm fixing to find out.

I will be contacting the Mohawk Nation, as well as the Tyendinaga Reserve.
Go for it because we will be finding out who you are!! Are you a government plant? Because both you and Keely are acting like  it!!

My change in opinion is due to consultation because under our Great Law, Walter's reasoning for coming here in the first place was not to mouch off of people, write bad cheques, or any of the listed accusations that you mentioned. His reason for coming here was to help us resolve some matters with our sacred sites.
Just because I identify myself as being from a community does not mean I speak for the entire community. Yes I am a Haudenosaunee person, and I am a Mohawk woman. THAT DOES NOT MEAN NOR CAN IT BE CONSTRUED THAT I SPEAK OR REPRESENT ALL OF OUR PEOPLE. When I see another person, a person who I  have been told by our traditional leaders, is under our protection, being treated the way he has by those on this board, I do have a right to speak up and defend, as an individual person. That's the way it works in our communities. We all have voices and are entitled to use them, and no one person can use threats like oh "I am going to contact Tyendinaga to find out who you are," in order to silence me. That won't work, and you will not get very far doing that. So I might suggest you go back and learn a few things about our traditional law before you go poking your nose in our community, and have some respect for our traditional leaders. Walter Renz is really our business, which both you and Keely are poking your noses in our buisness and have not been invited to. So bugger off! Both of you!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 11:49:18 am

I am not in your jurisdiction... my job is not controlled by your CANADIAN territory...

You have a real nice night Nikki... I have a busy day tomorrow, I work you know.. I have many things to do including sending my eBay sells off to their new owners...




And I am not speaking of Canadian jurisdiction, I am talking about jurisdiction under the Six Nations Confederacy, which there are no lines of demarcation in. I know how far that reaches and so do many others, which by your words shows how little you know about our treaties!! Again you have shown your true colours, a colonial government Indian!! A puppet of the Colonial Government! I am beginning to believe you are plant! It's quite obvious the way you attack traditional people.


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 21, 2009, 12:40:09 pm
Niiki, I'm still wondering about your change in opinion and attitude concerning Walter Renz. Yesterday, I asked you to explain. You chose to ignore my post, so I'm asking again. Why the flip flop?

A week ago you stated that y'all were looking for him, he owed people money, his genealogy didn't add up, he'd mooched off people, he didn't keep his word, he'd written bad checks, he was in trouble with the men's council. Basically, he was a worthless fraud.

Now you're acting like he's a relative. You've stated that he has the protection of the Six Nations. You've also threatened lawsuits. (Idle threats that remind me of a couple people who used to post here at NAFPS.)

Do you speak for the Haudenosaunee? Do you speak for the Mohawk Nation? Do they know you are throwing their name around like this on a public forum? I don't know who you are, Niiki; but I'm fixing to find out.

I will be contacting the Mohawk Nation, as well as the Tyendinaga Reserve.
Go for it because we will finding out who you are!! Are you a government plant? Because both you and Keely are acting like  it!!

My change in opinion is due to consultation because under our Great Law, Walter's reasoning for coming here in the first place was not to mouch off of people, write bad cheques, or any of the listed accusations that you mentioned. His reason for coming here was to help us resolve some matters with our sacred sites.
Just because I identify myself as being from a community does not mean I speak for the entire community. Yes I am a Haudenosaunee person, and I am a Mohawk woman. THAT DOES NOT MEAN NOR CAN IT BE CONSTRUED THAT I SPEAK OR REPRESENT ALL OF OUR PEOPLE. When I see another person, a person who I  have been told by our traditional leaders, is under our protection, being treated the way he has by those on this board, I do have a right to speak up and defend, as an individual person. That's the way it works in our communities. We all have voices and are entitled to use them, and no one person can use threats like oh "I am going to contact Tyendinaga to find out who you are," in order to silence me. That won't work, and you will not get very far doing that. So I might suggest you go back and learn a few things about our traditional law before you go poking your nose in our community, and have some respect for our traditional leaders. Walter Renz is really our business, which both you and Keely are poking your noses in our buisness and have not been invited to. So bugger off! Both of you!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory




Most people know who I am. It's no secret. Please don't start harvesting the internet for every post I've made over the past ten years. The copy and paste you've done on Keely is ridiculous and such a waste of time. I'd hate to see the forum spammed again like that.

As for Walter Renz . . . Those are not accusations I made, but some of the accusations you made about a week ago. All I was doing is quoting you.

Niiki, in all your posts on NAFPS, this is the first time I've seen you use the term Haudenosaunee. I've thought that odd, ever since you first started posting here.

Now you say you don't speak for the Mohawk Nation, but in prior posts you have definitely acted as though you do. With your statements about Renz having the protection of the Six Nations and your threats against Keely, you've definitely left the impression that you speak for the Confederacy.

I never said, "I am going to contact Tyendinaga to find out who you are".
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 03:10:14 pm
Niiki, I'm still wondering about your change in opinion and attitude concerning Walter Renz. Yesterday, I asked you to explain. You chose to ignore my post, so I'm asking again. Why the flip flop?

A week ago you stated that y'all were looking for him, he owed people money, his genealogy didn't add up, he'd mooched off people, he didn't keep his word, he'd written bad checks, he was in trouble with the men's council. Basically, he was a worthless fraud.

Now you're acting like he's a relative. You've stated that he has the protection of the Six Nations. You've also threatened lawsuits. (Idle threats that remind me of a couple people who used to post here at NAFPS.)

Do you speak for the Haudenosaunee? Do you speak for the Mohawk Nation? Do they know you are throwing their name around like this on a public forum? I don't know who you are, Niiki; but I'm fixing to find out.

I will be contacting the Mohawk Nation, as well as the Tyendinaga Reserve.
Go for it because we will finding out who you are!! Are you a government plant? Because both you and Keely are acting like  it!!

My change in opinion is due to consultation because under our Great Law, Walter's reasoning for coming here in the first place was not to mouch off of people, write bad cheques, or any of the listed accusations that you mentioned. His reason for coming here was to help us resolve some matters with our sacred sites.
Just because I identify myself as being from a community does not mean I speak for the entire community. Yes I am a Haudenosaunee person, and I am a Mohawk woman. THAT DOES NOT MEAN NOR CAN IT BE CONSTRUED THAT I SPEAK OR REPRESENT ALL OF OUR PEOPLE. When I see another person, a person who I  have been told by our traditional leaders, is under our protection, being treated the way he has by those on this board, I do have a right to speak up and defend, as an individual person. That's the way it works in our communities. We all have voices and are entitled to use them, and no one person can use threats like oh "I am going to contact Tyendinaga to find out who you are," in order to silence me. That won't work, and you will not get very far doing that. So I might suggest you go back and learn a few things about our traditional law before you go poking your nose in our community, and have some respect for our traditional leaders. Walter Renz is really our business, which both you and Keely are poking your noses in our buisness and have not been invited to. So bugger off! Both of you!

Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory




Most people know who I am. It's no secret. Please don't start harvesting the internet for every post I've made over the past ten years. The copy and paste you've done on Keely is ridiculous and such a waste of time. I'd hate to see the forum spammed again like that.

As for Walter Renz . . . Those are not accusations I made, but some of the accusations you made about a week ago. All I was doing is quoting you.

Niiki, in all your posts on NAFPS, this is the first time I've seen you use the term Haudenosaunee. I've thought that odd, ever since you first started posting here.

Now you say you don't speak for the Mohawk Nation, but in prior posts you have definitely acted as though you do. With your statements about Renz having the protection of the Six Nations and your threats against Keely, you've definitely left the impression that you speak for the Confederacy.

I never said, "I am going to contact Tyendinaga to find out who you are".
 When we are asked to deliver messages we do. And just because we do deliver messages for those who are in authority does not make a spokesperson.
We don't have spokes people as each and every person has a voice to use and they use it. They have that right! Our chiefs are not Kings with authority over all. They are only to guide us and advise us, never are they there to have some sort of authority over all of us. As the people are our government! It's We, the people, within the Six Nations Confederacy, not we the chiefs only who have a voice, but everyone has a voice which needs to be heard and respected as such. As far as accsuations made. I do believe it was Keely who contacted me first. And I only responded in a way of what was going on at that time. I also did not expect for her to be posting private emails on here that I sent her, without my permission. I do believe as I have stated, because of consultation and also hearing it from the source, my stance has changed, whereas I do support our traditional leaders on this issue. I do believe that it is in Keelye's best interest to work this out with Walter and his people directly before they do take other measures to rectify the situation. And also because they are under our protection, and Walter has identified himself to us as Mohawk, Wolf Clan, because that's what his mother is, he makes himself our business and no one elses.
That's the way it works within our house.

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 21, 2009, 07:00:06 pm
This has gone on way too long. Nikki, if you spam anymore or get abusive again, you will be banned. Stick strictly to the topic, which is Renz.

I hope you see how your own behavior undercuts your causes. And that's truly a shame, because they are important. I can just imagine how Johnson and his supporters are watching this with glee and will use your misbehavior to discredit what you've said about him.

While posting emails without permission may be poor behavior, it's not illegal, and you also need to quit spamming and threatening the the moderators by claiming it is.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 08:11:14 pm
This has gone on way too long. Nikki, if you spam anymore or get abusive again, you will be banned. Stick strictly to the topic, which is Renz.

I hope you see how your own behavior undercuts your causes. And that's truly a shame, because they are important. I can just imagine how Johnson and his supporters are watching this with glee and will use your misbehavior to discredit what you've said about him.

While posting emails without permission may be poor behavior, it's not illegal, and you also need to quit spamming and threatening the the moderators by claiming it is.

 And Renz should not be a topic here at all!  I certainly hope you have repremanded Keely for her not asking for permission to use my personal email responses to her in a public forum for the whole world to see. We will see what sort of action Renz does take on this, as Keely's action against him is not documentarily supported. And by you standing up for it and not ending this thread could also put you in a situation of allowing his name and reputation to be libelled. This is not a threat! It is a reality! Maybe there it is not illegal, but here emails are treated the same as mail, it is personal!

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 09:54:06 pm
This has gone on way too long. Nikki, if you spam anymore or get abusive again, you will be banned. Stick strictly to the topic, which is Renz.

I hope you see how your own behavior undercuts your causes. And that's truly a shame, because they are important. I can just imagine how Johnson and his supporters are watching this with glee and will use your misbehavior to discredit what you've said about him.

While posting emails without permission may be poor behavior, it's not illegal, and you also need to quit spamming and threatening the the moderators by claiming it is.

 And Renz should not be a topic here at all!  I certainly hope you have repremanded Keely for her not asking for permission to use my personal email responses to her in a public forum for the whole world to see. We will see what sort of action Renz does take on this, as Keely's action against him is not documentarily supported. And by you standing up for it and not ending this thread could also put you in a situation of allowing his name and reputation to be libelled. This is not a threat! It is a reality! Maybe there it is not illegal, but here emails are treated the same as mail, it is personal!

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

Nikki,

For the sake of argument, as this has been all along, me arguing that Walter is not who he says he is, and that he is not of the Longtail family, you wish to argue on his behalf.

I have posted documentation from the University of Oklahoma, those are offical Oklahoma records. There are all kinds of records that have information on the Lontail family.

I am not going to try and convince you, because you are set on seeing things only in one way.

I am sorry you are angry about this. But my family is very upset about what is happening to our family, and we will defend our family and our ancestors against this outside attack from a person who has never met us, and is not related to us. I do not ask for you to understand how we feel, only that you respect the Elders of my family, the Longtail family who cannot get online to post. Other family members have asked me to speak on our family's behalf.

None of this has really been about me, it is about my family, my love for my family and my love for my ancestors. It is about our need to protect our history and preserve what rightfully belongs to our children, grandchildren and the descendants who are yet to be born.

I wish you well Nikki. And I hope this all ends, I dont have the time for all of this, as I am sure you dont either.

Keely

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Cetan on July 21, 2009, 11:09:42 pm
Nikki - once you put something in writing to someone they can do whatever they want with it, it is not illegal for someone to publish what you wrote as long as they do not misquote you  And DNA tests dont mean sh*t
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 21, 2009, 11:12:46 pm
Nikki - once you put something in writing to someone they can do whatever they want with it, it is not illegal for someone to publish what you wrote as long as they do not misquote you  And DNA tests dont mean sh*t
DNA tests do mean s**t! Get real!  Emails can also be tampered with as I am sure Keely knows how to do since she works as a volunteer for the Sheriffs dept.

What doesn't mean s**t is on line genealogy without original documentation to back it up. Anyone can post anything on genealogical boards, it is no proof of anything!! Let's see the real proof!! Let's see the real documents!!

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 21, 2009, 11:54:40 pm
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 22, 2009, 01:31:47 am
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.


You are wrong again! There is what is called x DNA and Y DNA. His mother can give the DNA to prove who he is. Which would also prove the fact he is Mohawk. As he showed us already. You have no proof of what you are saying whatsoever.

As I said before do not contact me again about this subject and until you have talked to him directly, meaning not on the internet through a blog board. Get a life woman! And you stop attacking Walter on the interent until you do!

Oneh!


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 22, 2009, 06:23:05 am
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.


You are wrong again! There is what is called x DNA and Y DNA. His mother can give the DNA to prove who he is. Which would also prove the fact he is Mohawk. As he showed us already. You have no proof of what you are saying whatsoever.

As I said before do not contact me again about this subject and until you have talked to him directly, meaning not on the internet through a blog board. Get a life woman! And you stop attacking Walter on the interent until you do!

Oneh!


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Comparing Renz' DNA to his mother's will prove only one thing . . . Whether or not she's his mama. It won't prove whether or not he's Mohawk. I don't care what DNA test y'all use, it isn't going to show what his Nation is. There is no test available that will give that much detail. As for proving Renz is a Longtail descendant, Keely's right. You're going to need DNA from an actual member of the Longtail family to compare Renz' DNA to. I really don't see Renz taking a DNA test. When his results come back European, what's he going to do? He's been playing Indian too long. Is he going to give up his imaginary tribe; quit being a chief? He won't take the test.




Shawnee or Mohawk????

Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be Shawnee, a Longtail descendant?

This is Walter's mother. Niiki posted his full genealogy a few pages back.

Re: Arkansas and Ohio Wallens 
Posted by Walter Renz - Date: February 17, 2008

Quote
Virginia Carol Wallen /Mother Buffalo Longtail Shawnee full blood born 7/19/1940 married to Arnold Renz in 10/7/1956
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/983.html

 
Now Niiki is saying that his mother is Mohawk, Wolf Clan. That would make Walter a member of the Mohawk Nation, as the Haude are matrilineal.

. . . And also because they are under our protection, and Walter has identified himself to us as Mohawk, Wolf Clan, because that's what his mother is, he makes himself our business and no one elses.
That's the way it works within our house.

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


If Walter Renz is really Mohawk, why did he form the Morning Star Shawnee Nation? Why did he publish his genealogy as Shawnee?

MORNING STAR SHAWNEE NATION NATIVE BLOOD
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

I guess if your ancestors all came from Europe, it really doesn't matter which Nation you claim. One's as false as the next.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 22, 2009, 10:54:34 am
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.


You are wrong again! There is what is called x DNA and Y DNA. His mother can give the DNA to prove who he is. Which would also prove the fact he is Mohawk. As he showed us already. You have no proof of what you are saying whatsoever.

As I said before do not contact me again about this subject and until you have talked to him directly, meaning not on the internet through a blog board. Get a life woman! And you stop attacking Walter on the interent until you do!

Oneh!


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Comparing Renz' DNA to his mother's will prove only one thing . . . Whether or not she's his mama. It won't prove whether or not he's Mohawk. I don't care what DNA test y'all use, it isn't going to show what his Nation is. There is no test available that will give that much detail. As for proving Renz is a Longtail descendant, Keely's right. You're going to need DNA from an actual member of the Longtail family to compare Renz' DNA to. I really don't see Renz taking a DNA test. When his results come back European, what's he going to do? He's been playing Indian too long. Is he going to give up his imaginary tribe; quit being a chief? He won't take the test.




Shawnee or Mohawk????

Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be Shawnee, a Longtail descendant?

This is Walter's mother. Niiki posted his full genealogy a few pages back.

Re: Arkansas and Ohio Wallens  
Posted by Walter Renz - Date: February 17, 2008

Quote
Virginia Carol Wallen /Mother Buffalo Longtail Shawnee full blood born 7/19/1940 married to Arnold Renz in 10/7/1956
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/983.html

 
Now Niiki is saying that his mother is Mohawk, Wolf Clan. That would make Walter a member of the Mohawk Nation, as the Haude are matrilineal.

. . . And also because they are under our protection, and Walter has identified himself to us as Mohawk, Wolf Clan, because that's what his mother is, he makes himself our business and no one elses.
That's the way it works within our house.

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


If Walter Renz is really Mohawk, why did he form the Morning Star Shawnee Nation? Why did he publish his genealogy as Shawnee?

MORNING STAR SHAWNEE NATION NATIVE BLOOD
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

I guess if your ancestors all came from Europe, it really doesn't matter which Nation you claim. One's as false as the next.
 

Response to :Bonnie Singleton <bls926@msn.com>

Why because many people who identify as Shawnee really aren't Shawnee. If you you know anything about the Shawneee, which apparently you don't, many Shawnee intermarried with others such as Mohawk, Seneca, Erie, Delaware, Cherokee, and etc. Many were forced to identify as Shawnee and really aren't Shawnee. The Morning Star Shawnee are really Erie who were froced to identify as Shawnee, by birth through his mother, Walter is Mohawk Wolf Clan, which as little and nothing to do with his Renz side of the family. So go put that up your pipe and smoke it!!
And in Keely's case she says she is Shawnee but is a registered Cherokee! Maybe you ought to be asking her how that happened??? AH


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 22, 2009, 12:30:50 pm
If Walter Renz is really Mohawk, why did he form the Morning Star Shawnee Nation? Why did he publish his genealogy as Shawnee?

MORNING STAR SHAWNEE NATION NATIVE BLOOD
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

I guess if your ancestors all came from Europe, it really doesn't matter which Nation you claim. One's as false as the next.
 

Response to :Bonnie Singleton <bls926@msn.com>

Why because many people who identify as Shawnee really aren't Shawnee. If you you know anything about the Shawneee, which apparently you don't, many Shawnee intermarried with others such as Mohawk, Seneca, Erie, Delaware, Cherokee, and etc. Many were forced to identify as Shawnee and really aren't Shawnee. The Morning Star Shawnee are really Erie who were froced to identify as Shawnee, by birth through his mother, Walter is Mohawk Wolf Clan, which as little and nothing to do with his Renz side of the family. So go put that up your pipe and smoke it!!
And in Keely's case she says she is Shawnee but is a registered Cherokee! Maybe you ought to be asking her how that happened??? AH


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



That's screaming fraud so loud I can hear it all the way down here in Texas. Think that's the best one I've heard so far. Thanks for the laugh.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on July 22, 2009, 01:53:22 pm
This has gone on way too long. Nikki, if you spam anymore or get abusive again, you will be banned. Stick strictly to the topic, which is Renz.

I hope you see how your own behavior undercuts your causes. And that's truly a shame, because they are important. I can just imagine how Johnson and his supporters are watching this with glee and will use your misbehavior to discredit what you've said about him.

While posting emails without permission may be poor behavior, it's not illegal, and you also need to quit spamming and threatening the the moderators by claiming it is.

I have been following this thread and I must admit that I'm very confused. Going back to the TBE thread where this began, it appears that we all accept that TBE is a fraud, correct. Renz has appeared to have presented a false family history to claim Shawnee heritage, which is fraud.
What bothers me is that this has turned personal and very nasty, which is counterproductive. I agree with educatedindian, there has to be some order in this thread. Please explain why you have changed your mind about Renz, Niiki.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 22, 2009, 03:10:29 pm
This has gone on way too long. Nikki, if you spam anymore or get abusive again, you will be banned. Stick strictly to the topic, which is Renz.

I hope you see how your own behavior undercuts your causes. And that's truly a shame, because they are important. I can just imagine how Johnson and his supporters are watching this with glee and will use your misbehavior to discredit what you've said about him.

While posting emails without permission may be poor behavior, it's not illegal, and you also need to quit spamming and threatening the the moderators by claiming it is.

I have been following this thread and I must admit that I'm very confused. Going back to the TBE thread where this began, it appears that we all accept that TBE is a fraud, correct. Renz has appeared to have presented a false family history to claim Shawnee heritage, which is fraud.
What bothers me is that this has turned personal and very nasty, which is counterproductive. I agree with educatedindian, there has to be some order in this thread. Please explain why you have changed your mind about Renz, Niiki.
Then you should ask the US government why they forced many Erie, Seneca, Mohawk, Cherokee, Delaware , Chippewa, Ottawa, etc. to identify as Shawnee??? It would appear that US government and their agents are at fault for listing people under certain nations not necessarily their birth nation, to build a certain's ranks, maybe for a land claim, or to create a large of number Shawnee's who were never that large in numbers in the first place. Check your facts before you start throwing arrows at people who know who they are by nation and clan.

And  by the way what nation and clan are you Don?
Are you Mohawk? if not, then the Renz issue is not anyones business except the Mohawk Nation and that of the Six Nations Confederacy.


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 22, 2009, 03:44:36 pm
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.


You are wrong again! There is what is called x DNA and Y DNA. His mother can give the DNA to prove who he is. Which would also prove the fact he is Mohawk. As he showed us already. You have no proof of what you are saying whatsoever.

As I said before do not contact me again about this subject and until you have talked to him directly, meaning not on the internet through a blog board. Get a life woman! And you stop attacking Walter on the interent until you do!

Oneh!


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Comparing Renz' DNA to his mother's will prove only one thing . . . Whether or not she's his mama. It won't prove whether or not he's Mohawk. I don't care what DNA test y'all use, it isn't going to show what his Nation is. There is no test available that will give that much detail. As for proving Renz is a Longtail descendant, Keely's right. You're going to need DNA from an actual member of the Longtail family to compare Renz' DNA to. I really don't see Renz taking a DNA test. When his results come back European, what's he going to do? He's been playing Indian too long. Is he going to give up his imaginary tribe; quit being a chief? He won't take the test.




Shawnee or Mohawk????

Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be Shawnee, a Longtail descendant?

This is Walter's mother. Niiki posted his full genealogy a few pages back.

Re: Arkansas and Ohio Wallens  
Posted by Walter Renz - Date: February 17, 2008

Quote
Virginia Carol Wallen /Mother Buffalo Longtail Shawnee full blood born 7/19/1940 married to Arnold Renz in 10/7/1956
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/983.html

 
Now Niiki is saying that his mother is Mohawk, Wolf Clan. That would make Walter a member of the Mohawk Nation, as the Haude are matrilineal.

. . . And also because they are under our protection, and Walter has identified himself to us as Mohawk, Wolf Clan, because that's what his mother is, he makes himself our business and no one elses.
That's the way it works within our house.

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


If Walter Renz is really Mohawk, why did he form the Morning Star Shawnee Nation? Why did he publish his genealogy as Shawnee?

MORNING STAR SHAWNEE NATION NATIVE BLOOD
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

I guess if your ancestors all came from Europe, it really doesn't matter which Nation you claim. One's as false as the next.
 

Response to :Bonnie Singleton <bls926@msn.com>

Why because many people who identify as Shawnee really aren't Shawnee. If you you know anything about the Shawneee, which apparently you don't, many Shawnee intermarried with others such as Mohawk, Seneca, Erie, Delaware, Cherokee, and etc. Many were forced to identify as Shawnee and really aren't Shawnee. The Morning Star Shawnee are really Erie who were froced to identify as Shawnee, by birth through his mother, Walter is Mohawk Wolf Clan, which as little and nothing to do with his Renz side of the family. So go put that up your pipe and smoke it!!
And in Keely's case she says she is Shawnee but is a registered Cherokee! Maybe you ought to be asking her how that happened??? AH


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

I am going to keep this, here it is finally addmitted that Walter is not Shawnee, this goes against every claim Walter has made.

Thank you Nikki.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 22, 2009, 05:34:59 pm
No one has messed with your emails Nikki. They read exactly as you sent them.

DNA, no one has contacted any member of the Longtail family to do DNA testing. You must have DNA to compare to. You cannot take DNA from one person and magically comes back to people who never gave DNA. It is just not possible.

I am sure Walter's DNA will match exactly to the Wallen family, but the Wallen family is not the Longtail family. I am sure you are being played by Walter himself, I am sure he is reading here and is using you in the worst way. He wont post because he knows what a mess things could be made for him... and thats how you got the email I wrote to Walter, he sent it to you, and there is a area of which was added and not part of the original email, and it is in Walters style of writing.

I am willing to give my DNA for testing, even told Walter that in a email, but he has declined my offer.

There are Longtail family members who will give their DNA.. none has been contacted.


You are wrong again! There is what is called x DNA and Y DNA. His mother can give the DNA to prove who he is. Which would also prove the fact he is Mohawk. As he showed us already. You have no proof of what you are saying whatsoever.

As I said before do not contact me again about this subject and until you have talked to him directly, meaning not on the internet through a blog board. Get a life woman! And you stop attacking Walter on the interent until you do!

Oneh!


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory



Comparing Renz' DNA to his mother's will prove only one thing . . . Whether or not she's his mama. It won't prove whether or not he's Mohawk. I don't care what DNA test y'all use, it isn't going to show what his Nation is. There is no test available that will give that much detail. As for proving Renz is a Longtail descendant, Keely's right. You're going to need DNA from an actual member of the Longtail family to compare Renz' DNA to. I really don't see Renz taking a DNA test. When his results come back European, what's he going to do? He's been playing Indian too long. Is he going to give up his imaginary tribe; quit being a chief? He won't take the test.




Shawnee or Mohawk????

Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be Shawnee, a Longtail descendant?

This is Walter's mother. Niiki posted his full genealogy a few pages back.

Re: Arkansas and Ohio Wallens  
Posted by Walter Renz - Date: February 17, 2008

Quote
Virginia Carol Wallen /Mother Buffalo Longtail Shawnee full blood born 7/19/1940 married to Arnold Renz in 10/7/1956
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wallen/messages/983.html

 
Now Niiki is saying that his mother is Mohawk, Wolf Clan. That would make Walter a member of the Mohawk Nation, as the Haude are matrilineal.

. . . And also because they are under our protection, and Walter has identified himself to us as Mohawk, Wolf Clan, because that's what his mother is, he makes himself our business and no one elses.
That's the way it works within our house.

Oneh

Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory


If Walter Renz is really Mohawk, why did he form the Morning Star Shawnee Nation? Why did he publish his genealogy as Shawnee?

MORNING STAR SHAWNEE NATION NATIVE BLOOD
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/e/n/Walter--T-Renz/PDFBOOK1.pdf

I guess if your ancestors all came from Europe, it really doesn't matter which Nation you claim. One's as false as the next.
 

Response to :Bonnie Singleton <bls926@msn.com>

Why because many people who identify as Shawnee really aren't Shawnee. If you you know anything about the Shawneee, which apparently you don't, many Shawnee intermarried with others such as Mohawk, Seneca, Erie, Delaware, Cherokee, and etc. Many were forced to identify as Shawnee and really aren't Shawnee. The Morning Star Shawnee are really Erie who were froced to identify as Shawnee, by birth through his mother, Walter is Mohawk Wolf Clan, which as little and nothing to do with his Renz side of the family. So go put that up your pipe and smoke it!!
And in Keely's case she says she is Shawnee but is a registered Cherokee! Maybe you ought to be asking her how that happened??? AH


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

I am going to keep this, here it is finally addmitted that Walter is not Shawnee, this goes against every claim Walter has made.

Thank you Nikki.

  And we know Keely you are not Shawnee! You are Cherokee! You are a registered Cherokee, therefore not Shawnee. legally you can't be registered by one nation and claim to be another. All ties to that nation are relinquished, when you accept enrollment into another nation. Also as you say you were adopted by the Cherokee, therefore once you are adopted by another nation, whatever you were before you are no longer. And that is even in accordance to Wampum 44 under our Great Law of the Six Nations Confederacy. The Cherokee have the same traditional law as we do when it comes to adoption and acceptance. I also know that the Lakota practice the same law when it comes to adoption and acceptance. Therefore Keely you are not Shawnee, but you are Cherokee!! Bingo ! Gottcha!!


Oneh


Niiki from Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 22, 2009, 06:21:09 pm
Nikki,

I am going to tell you again, because you dont seem to understand. When the Shawnee were forced into Oklahoma, they were made a part of the Cherokee Nation, at one time, ALL people of my tribe were enrolled through the CNO, Bill Clinton signed into law separating the Shawnee and the Cherokee (do a search on the Loyal Shawnee) I decided to keep my enrollment in the CNO, but what you dont know is that my CDIB card reads Shawnee, not Cherokee, and my CNO card reads that I am Shawnee... so for all you think you know, you really dont  :)

I am also going to let you know for several days, I have been in contact with the Tyendinaga tribal government, this is mainly due to some of the claims you have been making here, along with threats on their behalf. I sent them not only some of your posts, but gave them a link to this disscussion. In my emails back and forth to the tribal government, seems no one knows you or a Stewart Maracle. You can go in and change your posts and other things, but the facts of what you wrote will remain in replies to you, and since this has been going on for several days, it would be useless to you to change anything right now.

Most importantly, I think you should know that the tribal government of the Tynendinaga has stated they dont know a Walter Renz, that he has not been there to help with anything, nor has he been there to cause trouble, which is totally different than what you claimed.

What tribe did you say you were with??

I am going to edit because I made a mistake... with a person within the government, they told me there are a few women they know of with the name Nikki, so I was wrong when I wrote that no one knew anyone with that name.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 22, 2009, 06:26:03 pm
I would like to add that the Tynendinaga have been very kind in their assistance, and they fully understand why I am defending my family in our stand against the situation that is going on. Their support does mean a lot to my family, and to the Elders of my family. I thank, I thank them and my family thanks them with for their assistance and understanding in this matter.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 22, 2009, 11:20:38 pm
I would like to add that the Tynendinaga have been very kind in their assistance, and they fully understand why I am defending my family in our stand against the situation that is going on. Their support does mean a lot to my family, and to the Elders of my family. I thank, I thank them and my family thanks them with for their assistance and understanding in this matter.

It has been verified that Keely has not contacted anyone at Tyendinaga, as she claims. Apparently many of her claims do not verify, with the sources, that she states. No one there at the band office has ever received all calls from Keely Denning and don't know what she is talking about.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 23, 2009, 12:11:57 am
Segoh, Keely;


    If you in fact contacted the Tyendinaga Band Council, in Tyendinaga , they are only the financial arm, as they have no authority over the traditional people nor our traditional government, which is the Six Nations Confederacy. It is important for you to understand that we have two different governments here, which is an elected council, whom are employees of the Colonial government of Canada, and the traditional government, the Six Nations Confederacy.  

What you are doing by attacking others like you have, goes entirely against our Great Law, and you have been advised on several occasions how to handle this situation under our traditional law, which you have refused.

As far as this issue is concerned, there will be no more response or discussion with you by me, as this situation as I stated needs to be handled under our traditional laws and within our House.
Niawen gowa for bringing these things to our attention, and it is hope that you will find it within yourself to not continue this ruthless attack as you have, with unsubstantiated information.

Also since you have brought Stewart's name into this without his permission, a call was made, to
the listed telephone number

[Personal information removed. POSTER WAS BANNED.]

The Salina Police Department , has been contacted and a call was returned by their Chief of Police to verify your volunteer status within their department and their sister department, and they have no such volunteers. Since they do not know of you as being involved with them and you have put the information out that you are a volunteer for them, they will be speaking to you about this misrepresentation of the facts. The telephone number listed was called, and it is not in order.

As far as we know you could be anyone from anywhere making these attacks, and this is just one other thing that does not verify. An investigation is now being pursued by the police of who you are and where you are located at.


Why do we involve ourselves in any more blood or energy drained over someone who done us no harm??
This is the end of this matter as far we are concerned . Time and energy can be spent doing positive things to help the future generations and instead of destroying those of Good Mind.



Day nay toh


Oneh


Niiki



Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: tree hugger on July 23, 2009, 12:29:13 am
Well here I am again. While I don't mind posts pulled from Woodland, I would prefer they are used in context.

Twisting and shaping things to your views isn't helping anything Niiki. Ah but I already know that isn't your name.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 23, 2009, 12:43:39 am
Well here I am again. While I don't mind posts pulled from Woodland, I would prefer they are used in context.

Twisting and shaping things to your views isn't helping anything Niiki. Ah but I already know that isn't your name.
we know that treehugger isn't your name


THE END
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: tree hugger on July 23, 2009, 12:47:25 am
 ;D

Hey you're good, I wasn't born with the name treehugger. I think most people here know my name from previous posts.

I've been following this thread, and I would still (like others)  like to know the real reason you changed your mind about Renz.

What Nation do you belong to again?
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Cetan on July 23, 2009, 03:15:44 am
I was glancing through this and Nikki has posted peoples home address and phone numbers - this seems like crossing a boundary and I for one believe she should be banned, her posts are just copying things from other forums which have no relevancy here
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 23, 2009, 03:48:33 am
;D

Hey you're good, I wasn't born with the name treehugger. I think most people here know my name from previous posts.

I've been following this thread, and I would still (like others)  like to know the real reason you changed your mind about Renz.

What Nation do you belong to again?

This whole thing on Renz needs to come to an end, that's the decision I made, in accordance with our Great Law. I don't do mind-changers!!

I am Mohawk, and support our traditional government, the Six Nations Confederacy, proud of it !!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 23, 2009, 04:15:17 am
I was glancing through this and Nikki has posted peoples home address and phone numbers - this seems like crossing a boundary and I for one believe she should be banned, her posts are just copying things from other forums which have no relevancy here

They have a lot of relavancy. As if others here have not done the same?? So they should they be banned too? Or just those of us who are real Ongwe Onwe?

Censorship is nothing new to those who are for real Ongwe Onwe. We tolerated it for over 500 years, nothing new to us. I thought this forum was to expose those who are not doing things in a good way?
So now that certain of you have been exposed you want to silence those of us who are Ongwe Onwe, know who we are by clan and nation. When many of you who have been asked that question either don't have an answer or refuse to answer the question. So what does that make you, not a true Ongwe Onwe!

Robert Bernhard aka Cetan  what is your clan and nation ?
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 23, 2009, 04:28:51 am
Nikki, there you go again, nothing but flooding the board with spam again.

Your 1900 census information on Sam Squirrel married to a Betsy is the wrong family  ;D Remember, my family is Sam CHARLEY, and Betsy PANTHER, and Sam died before the 1900 census  ;D Betsy is on the census but you wont find her...

But let me clarify you on several things...

Your knowledge of Oklahoma Indian tribes is very lacking... your knowledge of my family is more lacking  ;D

Let me explain to you the facts, and like Walter, you two like to try to force fiction into fitting anywhere you want...

I was born in 1959, my fathers name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel, aka Charley Squirrel, in 1964 my dad decided to change our names, he changed his name to Charles Brewer.. therefore, I have no blood connection to any Brewer living or dead. So you went off on a frenzy for nothing at all.. you could have just asked and I would have told you...

I have NEVER volunteered for the Police Department! Never ever.. I have worked in Juvenile Corrections for the Sheriff's Dept. and I volunteer researching history of the department. I also work on a Jane Doe homicide case, my part in that is to seek missing persons who could be our Jane Doe.. because somewhere, she has a child, somewhere someone knows who she was, she was a victim of a violent crime, and her name has been taken away... I visit her grave, she deserves to be remembered.

Let me make clear to you, I am not a cop, never been a cop, I have no desire to be a cop. Do you understand?

More on my father, he was murdered in Vinita, Oklahoma in 1992, the Chief of Police there knows me and has met me... He knows my dads real name..

There is a book written by the son of a bootlegger, in that book there is a chapter written about my dad, known as Charley Squirrel, he and Bobby Bluejacket were cousins, and best of friends... if you take the time to google Bobby Bluejacket you will find one of the first things that comes up will be his conviction for murder in Oklahoma... he got let out of prison very early... the case is right there online  ;D

Try to get to know my family  :D get the right ones now, other than going and making stuff up as you go along...

And for the spam you posted from other boards and chats.. I didnt really read it, because of your history of taking things and twisting it to suit your needs.. I wouldnt believe anything you posted...

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Niiki on July 23, 2009, 04:31:39 am
Nikki, there you go again, nothing but flooding the board with spam again.

Your 1900 census information on Sam Squirrel married to a Betsy is the wrong family  ;D Remember, my family is Sam CHARLEY, and Betsy PANTHER, and Sam died before the 1900 census  ;D Betsy is on the census but you wont find her...

But let me clarify you on several things...

Your knowledge of Oklahoma Indian tribes is very lacking... your knowledge of my family is more lacking  ;D

Let me explain to you the facts, and like Walter, you two like to try to force fiction into fitting anywhere you want...

I was born in 1959, my fathers name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel, aka Charley Squirrel, in 1964 my dad decided to change our names, he changed his name to Charles Brewer.. therefore, I have no blood connection to any Brewer living or dead. So you went off on a frenzy for nothing at all.. you could have just asked and I would have told you...

I have NEVER volunteered for the Police Department! Never ever.. I have worked in Juvenile Corrections for the Sheriff's Dept. and I volunteer researching history of the department. I also work on a Jane Doe homicide case, my part in that is to seek missing persons who could be our Jane Doe.. because somewhere, she has a child, somewhere someone knows who she was, she was a victim of a violent crime, and her name has been taken away... I visit her grave, she deserves to be remembered.

Let me make clear to you, I am not a cop, never been a cop, I have no desire to be a cop. Do you understand?

More on my father, he was murdered in Vinita, Oklahoma in 1992, the Chief of Police there knows me and has met me... He knows my dads real name..

There is a book written by the son of a bootlegger, in that book there is a chapter written about my dad, known as Charley Squirrel, he and Bobby Bluejacket were cousins, and best of friends... if you take the time to google Bobby Bluejacket you will find one of the first things that comes up will be his conviction for murder in Oklahoma... he got let out of prison very early... the case is right there online  ;D

Try to get to know my family  :D get the right ones now, other than going and making stuff up as you go along...

And for the spam you posted from other boards and chats.. I didnt really read it, because of your history of taking things and twisting it to suit your needs.. I wouldnt believe anything you posted...




http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Keely+Denning+volunteer+Sheriff%27s+Dept&fr=yfp-t-501&SpellState=n-2007528011_q-Gi1RwjNeDq6PLT3DqSCVvgAAAA%40%40&u=z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D6756%26view%3Dgetlastpost&w=keely+denning+dennings+volunteer+volunteering+volunteers+sheriff%27s+sheriff+dept+department&d=DmE72hlMS8hx&icp=1&.intl=ca

Now 23 years later the Saline County Sheriff's Office has stacks of evidence but still no answers.

"It's very frustrating," Smith says. "You would think that somebody even in the 1980s, that would go missing that we would be able to find out who she is, but we can't."

Denning says she became fascinated with this case years ago when she worked for the Sheriff's office.

"Even though she was in a muddy creek, she just has this presence or sense about her that you would have liked to have known her," Denning says.

Now Denning's work is all volunteer. She spends five hours a day searching the internet hoping to match Miss Molly with some missing person somewhere. So far every promising lead has led nowhere.


and nothing you post is believable!!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 23, 2009, 04:47:12 am
;D

Hey you're good, I wasn't born with the name treehugger. I think most people here know my name from previous posts.

I've been following this thread, and I would still (like others)  like to know the real reason you changed your mind about Renz.

What Nation do you belong to again?

This whole thing on Renz needs to come to an end, that's the decision I made, in accordance with our Great Law. I don't do mind-changers!!

I am Mohawk, and support our traditional government, the Six Nations Confederacy, proud of it !!!

The title of the thread is Walter Renz, the topic is supposed to be about Walter and his false claims of being related to my family of which he is not. You keep trying to change the discussion into my family history of anyone you THINK is related to me, and 99% of the time, you have been wrong, and here I am doing my best to correct your mistakes.

This is all about Walter and his lies that are causing disrespect to my ancestors.

I think the majority of the people will believe the Oklahoma records kept at OU about the Longtail family.. Al asked that I post my evidence, of which I did, and I do not see anyone here but you making the claim that the Oklahoma records are not legitimate.

This is about the fraudulant activities of Walter Renz, and that of his group selling their work as Indian made which is in violation of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990, to which, Walter knows he got his letter from Washington DC telling him there is no such tribe as Morning Star Shawnee, that he is not Indian and neither are those selling items as Indian made... and if anyone does not believe it, they can call the Indian Arts and Crafts board in Washington DC and ask for themselves...

I know your going to post and call me a liar, but hey... I have a huge grin on my face because Walter knows, that I know, that he and another person got that letter from Washington, if they continue to do what they are doing, they can be arrested... and that would let the world know what a fraud he and his group is..

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 23, 2009, 04:52:35 am
Nikki, there you go again, nothing but flooding the board with spam again.

Your 1900 census information on Sam Squirrel married to a Betsy is the wrong family  ;D Remember, my family is Sam CHARLEY, and Betsy PANTHER, and Sam died before the 1900 census  ;D Betsy is on the census but you wont find her...

But let me clarify you on several things...

Your knowledge of Oklahoma Indian tribes is very lacking... your knowledge of my family is more lacking  ;D

Let me explain to you the facts, and like Walter, you two like to try to force fiction into fitting anywhere you want...

I was born in 1959, my fathers name was Lemuel Charley Squirrel, aka Charley Squirrel, in 1964 my dad decided to change our names, he changed his name to Charles Brewer.. therefore, I have no blood connection to any Brewer living or dead. So you went off on a frenzy for nothing at all.. you could have just asked and I would have told you...

I have NEVER volunteered for the Police Department! Never ever.. I have worked in Juvenile Corrections for the Sheriff's Dept. and I volunteer researching history of the department. I also work on a Jane Doe homicide case, my part in that is to seek missing persons who could be our Jane Doe.. because somewhere, she has a child, somewhere someone knows who she was, she was a victim of a violent crime, and her name has been taken away... I visit her grave, she deserves to be remembered.

Let me make clear to you, I am not a cop, never been a cop, I have no desire to be a cop. Do you understand?

More on my father, he was murdered in Vinita, Oklahoma in 1992, the Chief of Police there knows me and has met me... He knows my dads real name..

There is a book written by the son of a bootlegger, in that book there is a chapter written about my dad, known as Charley Squirrel, he and Bobby Bluejacket were cousins, and best of friends... if you take the time to google Bobby Bluejacket you will find one of the first things that comes up will be his conviction for murder in Oklahoma... he got let out of prison very early... the case is right there online  ;D

Try to get to know my family  :D get the right ones now, other than going and making stuff up as you go along...

And for the spam you posted from other boards and chats.. I didnt really read it, because of your history of taking things and twisting it to suit your needs.. I wouldnt believe anything you posted...




http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Keely+Denning+volunteer+Sheriff%27s+Dept&fr=yfp-t-501&SpellState=n-2007528011_q-Gi1RwjNeDq6PLT3DqSCVvgAAAA%40%40&u=z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D6756%26view%3Dgetlastpost&w=keely+denning+dennings+volunteer+volunteering+volunteers+sheriff%27s+sheriff+dept+department&d=DmE72hlMS8hx&icp=1&.intl=ca

Now 23 years later the Saline County Sheriff's Office has stacks of evidence but still no answers.

"It's very frustrating," Smith says. "You would think that somebody even in the 1980s, that would go missing that we would be able to find out who she is, but we can't."

Denning says she became fascinated with this case years ago when she worked for the Sheriff's office.

"Even though she was in a muddy creek, she just has this presence or sense about her that you would have liked to have known her," Denning says.

Now Denning's work is all volunteer. She spends five hours a day searching the internet hoping to match Miss Molly with some missing person somewhere. So far every promising lead has led nowhere.


and nothing you post is believable!!

What you just posted only confirms what I have already told you! That I am not a cop, I dont want to be a cop, I have never volunteered for the Police Department, that I once worked in Juvenile Corrections, and now I volunteer doing historical research for the department and I work on the Jane Doe case, and yes, we call her Miss Molly because everyone deserves a name...

I believe what you found was the news story that was done by one of our larger television stations... Jim Grawa did the interview, very nice guy.. but there are other news stories out there, even with the full video story of Mike and I  ;D

Thanks for the plug on Miss Molly
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 23, 2009, 05:05:57 am
Unfuckingbelievable! What'd you do Niiki, spend the entire day searching the internet for every post I've ever made on every forum I've ever belonged to? And what do you think this proves? If you were trying to discredit me, you struck out. I'm not ashamed of anything I've written. Every post I've ever made is out there . . . the good, the bad, and everything in between. I don't delete my posts. If I realize something I've posted was wrong, I'll apologize; but the original post remains. (By the way, my opinion of Ben Carnes has changed in the past year, since that post on AITF was written. But, that's discussed in another thread here in Research Needed.)

There's just a couple things I want to say to you, Niiki. As tree hugger pointed out, it ain't cool to take things out of context. You picked random posts from here and there over the past 3 or 4 years. What's even worse is the fact that you added to some of those posts. I think you were adding comments; however, the way you've written them, it makes it seem like they are part of the original post. I know they weren't. Some of your comments are out-right lies.

Niiki, if you want a piece of me, have at it. Give it your best shot; but leave other people out of it. There was no need to copy posts made by other people on the forums I belong to.

Now, lets get back on topic. No more spamming the board with your temper-tantrums.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 23, 2009, 05:16:42 am
Unfuckingbelievable! What'd you do Niiki, spend the entire day searching the internet for every post I've ever made on every forum I've ever belonged to? And what do you think this proves? If you were trying to discredit me, you struck out. I'm not ashamed of anything I've written. Every post I've ever made is out there . . . the good, the bad, and everything in between. I don't delete my posts. If I realize something I've posted was wrong, I'll apologize; but the original post remains. (By the way, my opinion of Ben Carnes has changed in the past year, since that post on AITF was written. But, that's discussed in another thread here in Research Needed.)

There's just a couple things I want to say to you, Niiki. As tree hugger pointed out, it ain't cool to take things out of context. You picked random posts from here and there over the past 3 or 4 years. What's even worse is the fact that you added to some of those posts. I think you were adding comments; however, the way you've written them, it makes it seem like they are part of the original post. I know they weren't. Some of your comments are out-right lies.

Niiki, if you want a piece of me, have at it. Give it your best shot; but leave other people out of it. There was no need to copy posts made by other people on the forums I belong to.

Now, lets get back on topic. No more spamming the board with your temper-tantrums.

I didnt read all the posts, too much spam... but I did notice some names she used, names of people who are not part of this discussion, not part of this forum, but no doubt, most of them, if they were part of it, would set her straight in a heart beat about me  :D  There are people who like me, people who dont like me, people who have no feelings either way towards me, and the majority of them would let Nikki know I have never lied about who I was, or who my family is.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 23, 2009, 05:52:48 am
Cetan and Don Naconna made comments about the direction this thread was taking or wondered why Niiki's opinion about Walter Renz changed. Now Niiki is attacking them. I agree with Cetan, it's time for Niiki to be shown the door. 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 23, 2009, 01:53:24 pm
Niiki is now banned. Posting the personal information of at least three people was the final straw. The truly bad thing will be how Johnson/TBE and supporters will exploit her personal faults to try and discredit criticism of the phony "Eries" actions as exploiters.

So I'll stress to anyone reading this: All of the evidence against Johnson/TBE can be verified independently, regardless of Niiki's tantrums.

It'll take some time to clean up the mess. If I overlook anything, pls contact me or the other mods to let us know.

And I'm wondering how much to leave up of this whole mess. Is it even possible to disentangle this so it's entirely a thread about Renz? Or maybe leave the attacks and sidetracks (outside of spam, insults, and personal information that will be removed) to show what Renz and his supporter Niiki will resort to.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on July 23, 2009, 02:33:10 pm
Thank you, Al.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 25, 2009, 02:33:10 pm
Niiki is now claiming to have definitive proof that the Indian Crafts act is not being violated. But she refuses to say what it is until the thread is deleted. Obviously we won't do that. My guess is her evidence is as credible as anything else she says about Renz.

And to top it off, she's now spreading rumors I'm a child molester, being gullible enough to fall for lies put out by John Martin and John Lekay. She sent me a rant about it. All that does is, again, make it look like Renz has something to hide, plus show how Niiki can easily be fooled.

I'll stress again to anyone reading this: All of the evidence against Johnson/TBE can be verified independently, regardless of Niiki's lack of ethics and common sense.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Cetan on July 25, 2009, 04:53:12 pm
I was glancing through this and Nikki has posted peoples home address and phone numbers - this seems like crossing a boundary and I for one believe she should be banned, her posts are just copying things from other forums which have no relevancy here

They have a lot of relavancy. As if others here have not done the same?? So they should they be banned too? Or just those of us who are real Ongwe Onwe?

Censorship is nothing new to those who are for real Ongwe Onwe. We tolerated it for over 500 years, nothing new to us. I thought this forum was to expose those who are not doing things in a good way?
So now that certain of you have been exposed you want to silence those of us who are Ongwe Onwe, know who we are by clan and nation. When many of you who have been asked that question either don't have an answer or refuse to answer the question. So what does that make you, not a true Ongwe Onwe!

Robert Bernhard aka Cetan  what is your clan and nation ?




I have no idea who Robert Berhard, seems like as usual Nikki's info is incorrect.
I am a woman, my mother is enrolled at Ft Berthold - Hidatsa and Mandan, we are from the Waterbuster Clan
My partner, whose last name has Hawk in it and with whom I originally started posting with one sign in, is enrolled Rosebud, 4/4 Sicangu Lakota
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 26, 2009, 01:11:20 am
I was glancing through this and Nikki has posted peoples home address and phone numbers - this seems like crossing a boundary and I for one believe she should be banned, her posts are just copying things from other forums which have no relevancy here

They have a lot of relavancy. As if others here have not done the same?? So they should they be banned too? Or just those of us who are real Ongwe Onwe?

Censorship is nothing new to those who are for real Ongwe Onwe. We tolerated it for over 500 years, nothing new to us. I thought this forum was to expose those who are not doing things in a good way?
So now that certain of you have been exposed you want to silence those of us who are Ongwe Onwe, know who we are by clan and nation. When many of you who have been asked that question either don't have an answer or refuse to answer the question. So what does that make you, not a true Ongwe Onwe!

Robert Bernhard aka Cetan  what is your clan and nation ?




I have no idea who Robert Berhard, seems like as usual Nikki's info is incorrect.
I am a woman, my mother is enrolled at Ft Berthold - Hidatsa and Mandan, we are from the Waterbuster Clan
My partner, whose last name has Hawk in it and with whom I originally started posting with one sign in, is enrolled Rosebud, 4/4 Sicangu Lakota

I know a Crowsheart from Ft. Berthold! His girlfriend (she is white) used to be a good friend, until she moved to Kansas and tried to tell the Indian Center what Indians are supposed to be like...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 26, 2009, 01:21:56 am
Niiki is now claiming to have definitive proof that the Indian Crafts act is not being violated. But she refuses to say what it is until the thread is deleted. Obviously we won't do that. My guess is her evidence is as credible as anything else she says about Renz.

And to top it off, she's now spreading rumors I'm a child molester, being gullible enough to fall for lies put out by John Martin and John Lekay. She sent me a rant about it. All that does is, again, make it look like Renz has something to hide, plus show how Niiki can easily be fooled.

I'll stress again to anyone reading this: All of the evidence against Johnson/TBE can be verified independently, regardless of Niiki's lack of ethics and common sense.


She is tring a bait and switch on you.. It was I who turned in Renz's "members" for violation of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act. I know Walter got a letter to cease, this his group is not a "real tribe" and they cannot sell items as Indian made, a letter also went out to his "enrolled" tribal member named Tammy for her website of which she is trying to sell her work as "traditional" and as Indian made... Anyone can call the IACA board and find out this is true...

I tried to read the TBE issue, but it gave me a headache... one general rule of thumb, if a person is going by a famous chiefs' name, they are most likely a fraud... I do not know of any real desendants of anyone "famous" who is not part of a federally recognized nation.

I am saddened that Nikki's actions on this topic may have caused harm to the other issue...

I did see where Nikki stated that my Longtail family is not the same as Renz, however, Renz hung himself on this issue, because there are no other Longtails who are named Abraham aka Jake who had a son named Henry who was moved out of Kansas and into Oklahoma... Renz has his false tale on too many websites to back peddle at any given time now.

I feel, I have posted enough proof to show Renz is a fraud. Links to the University of Oklahoma on the Longtails and if need be, I can use his own records against him on the surname of Wallen.. as I have checked all the Wallen records, and they all are listed as White... War draft records, US census records, death records and birth records.. never is there a mention of any Indian blood until Walter suddenly appears and starts making his claim...

Does anyone want me to post about the Wallen family?
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on July 30, 2009, 12:42:44 pm
Stew Maracle contacted me and asked me to post this message.

----------------

Subject: Renz and Ranting Nikki


Hello People;
 
Please take the time to read and reflect on all of my words, I wish to be a positive part of your great endeavours.
I have applied to be admitted to your board, there appears to be a delay in processing.....mohawkcares.  A little info...I do not know zealous nikki from your board....she appears to be an interesting study, lol. I am a member of the Mohawk Nation Mens Council Fire, and we do have interest in the facts on the Walter Renz situation. We don't care about his or his group selling "Indian novelties" but we do care about his potential for activity within the Nations.
 
We have been observing him for a few months now, and he appears to be doing no harm, although, at his own expense, has stood in protecting some of our burial mounds. This is a positive thing in our books, but does not certify him Native by any means. He claims to be Native, unless he does harm, we have no reason under our law to address him otherwise. If he has in fact done harm, or has the premise to do harm, we wish to know, so we can address him directly. As you are aware we handle such issues in house and with great prudence. As for reviewing the posts on him, we do rely primarily on foreign governments records, such as those of the USA or Canada. We have found them not to truly reflect facts, and some data collection most certainly was inaccurate. These records do of course offer a nice starting point, and from there we go to community level for resource. our investigation in this matter continues and we would appreciate any input you provide. We respect the work you do, and we thank you.
 
There seems to be alot of focus and concern on people selling "Indian Made" goods, when the people making or selling them may not be native, although this is not an honourable thing to do, some people need to do what they can to survive, and this reflects our lack of humanity today, to see people in such circumstances. As a community, our Native Ancestor have had to do many terrible things to survive, but I do not believe this make them criminal under our law. To use a foreign powers law to address a matter of our concern, I feel is not proper either. We should apply our law, and community should respond to the cause and need, not the symptom.
 
We need to focus more on what is harming our people, things like destruction of our sacred places, illegal interference with our sovereignty, false teachings that are damaging to our connection with the creator and ancestors, and direct defrauding of our people. We need to rebuild the links with our people, help in the short comings and needs, and address the harmful behaviours from the foreign governments together. Each of us must do as our spirit leads us and that is OK, each takes away what they need and that is as it should be, and each is responsible to care for each other and that is good.
 
To me a real crime is when people offer medicines, sacred care, treatment, or ceremony for pay of any kind, the gifts presented to us, are gifts to be shared in helping keep our promises. The Creator looks after our needs, as long as we do good works. This has proven true to me time and time again, and I would be offended if ever offered payment, for the sharing of my gifts to help others. In peace, my words keeping with The Great and Binding Law of my people.
Thank You
In Service to the People
 
Stewy
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 31, 2009, 04:18:48 am
On second thought... I decided to delete my post... I will get back laterz
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on July 31, 2009, 02:10:10 pm
The more I review Niiki's rants, the more I believe that she is NOT Indian. Indian people do not have to prove that they ARE Indian. She has this compulsion to "out Indian" everyone. There are members of this group who are not aboriginal/Native American, but have long supported their struggle for justice, and those who have some aboriginal/Native American blood or have had long contact with First Nations. Niiki does not have any respect for the members of this group.
Why didn't Chief Maracle say anything about Niiki? Maybe because she isn't Mohawk. When I googled her name, I found an article about the Solidarity Group, they are non aboriginals who support the Tyendinaga land claim and activist Shawn Brant. Niiki's tactics are using slander, character assasination, spreading lies and evading real issues. She spend so much time researching everyone's fmily history, yet have any members seen hers? I have encountered other self hating whites who convince themselves that they are Native. The best way to tell is that they have to be super Indians.
Also I find it interesting that she doesn't realise that the Shawnee have been part of the CNO for over a century and that blood Shawnee are listed as Cherokee, as is the case with Keely.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on July 31, 2009, 03:48:39 pm
On second thought... I decided to delete my post... I will get back laterz

OK I am back... and this post is not directed at anyone, nor am I trying to flame anyone... but honestly, I have my doubts about this "email" which was posted.

I have been in contact with the Mohawk Nation, and with the Council, and no one seems to know a Stewart, Stew or Stewy Maracle. I have done web searching with a focus on Stewart Maracle Council, and have come up with nothing. http://www.afn.ca/article.asp?id=3

I think it is highly possible that Nikki, not wanting anyone to know who she in contact with, has mixed two different peoples names to invent a person.

It is quite interesting that this person would write: "we do rely primarily on foreign governments records, such as those of the USA or
Canada. We have found them not to truly reflect facts, and some data collection most certainly was inaccurate."

One person of whom I have shared this "email" with went to that one statement, and wondered if the Mohawk Nation just took anyone in who claimed to be Mohawk? What do they use as their "proof" for membership? Or do they take anyone at their word that they are who they say? If that is the case, then I hope they take all these frauds into their Nation and get them out of our hair.

My main interest in what was written is this line: "false teachings that are damaging to our connection with the creator and ancestors, and direct defrauding of our people."  I would like to respond to that.

False people, who make up lies about themselves and who their family is, are spreading false teachings, a person who is not raised within their people and they go out and make stuff up, that is false teachings. Anyone who lies about who their ancestors are, to the point of stealing someone elses ancestors are defrauding of all peoples. The kind of people who are stealing the ancestors of others, and telling lies are the kind of people who cannot be trusted."

If this person really is who they say they are, a Stewart Maracle, I invite you to email me directly at kdenning@ cox.net





Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on July 31, 2009, 09:49:21 pm
I haven't found anything on "Stewart Maracle" except a 1966 obituary. So perhaps Niiki communicates with the dead. The Tyendinaga (Bay of Quinte) Mohawk is Chief R. Donald Maracle. No Niiki is a phony and not a Tyendinaga Mohawk. I believe that she is doing much more harm than good for the Mohawk as self appointed super Indian. Her tactics alienate people, Indian and white.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on August 05, 2009, 08:00:41 pm
I haven't found anything on "Stewart Maracle" except a 1966 obituary. So perhaps Niiki communicates with the dead. The Tyendinaga (Bay of Quinte) Mohawk is Chief R. Donald Maracle. No Niiki is a phony and not a Tyendinaga Mohawk. I believe that she is doing much more harm than good for the Mohawk as self appointed super Indian. Her tactics alienate people, Indian and white.



Not too long ago, I seen a t-shirt that read "I See Stupid People" and I think I need to get myself one of those...

I have emailed and called the Six Nations on both sides of the boarder, no one seems to know a "Stewart" or "Stewy" Maracle. I have emailed links to this forum to the tribes. I have gotten appologies from the Six Nations for the threats that were made by Nikki. They do not know where she came up with this idea that I was under the "control" of the Six Nations, and I was told that this "email" from this person "Stewy" is way out there... that yes, they DO use Federal records... and that the Mohawk in the US has been under attack by these wannabes to the point that they are changing their tribal membership BQ requirements, the new requirements are going to require 1/2 Mohawk blood or more, any less and a person is not going to be enrolled, I asked if the current enrolled members who have less than 1/2 BQ would be disenrolled, and they said they had not made that decission yet.. I was also told that the Canadian Mohawk is considering the same...

And people dont think wannabes hurt tribes...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on August 05, 2009, 08:33:23 pm
If you need assistance contact the Assembly of First Nations regarding Canadian treaty laws and status. There is a difference between status and non status, although both are aboriginal, Metis or Inuit. Status aboriginals live on or off reserves, while the majority of non status don't. Canadian laws are based on the "Indian Act" and over 600 band councils. Non aboriginals posing as aboriginals almost always claims to be status, and eligible for federal preferrences and benefits. There are many status aboriginals who are PODIAs and many non status folks who are full or half blood.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on August 06, 2009, 03:19:54 am
I spoke with Chief Donald Maracle this afternoon. He does not know Stewart Maracle or Walter Renz. Neither man is helping the Tyendinaga Mohawk with their land claims or anything else. Stewart Maracle is definitely not an Hereditary Chief or a member of the Tyendinaga Men's Council, as Niiki claimed.

I haven't been able to find anything about Stewart Maracle either, except for the aforementioned obituary. I'm beginning to think he's a figment of Niiki's over-active imagination. The same imagination that claimed the Shawnee were cousins to the Six Nations and under the control of the Confederacy and that we'd all have to answer to the Tyendinaga Mohawk for questioning Walter Renz.

I hate it when fakes and flakes join NAFPS. They may work to expose frauds and exploiters, but they're usually the in-your-face obvious ones, like the Billington duo or Tribal America or Hawk Pope or Tecumseh Brown Eagle. Whatever help they give in this regard is overshadowed by the harm they do. No one thinks you have to be Native in order to protect tradition and spirituality or speak out against appropriation; you just need to be honest. Don't pretend to be someone or something you aren't. Don't try to be super injun when you ain't Indian at all. This would apply to Niiki and several other now silent members or former members of NAFPS. No matter how well you think you've covered your ass, no matter how long you've been living your lie, the truth always comes out.


Edit to Add:  Going to spell that last paragraph out, so that my words don't get twisted and I'm accused of posting something I didn't.

Billington duo = Zoi Lightfoot and Linda Lou Flewin
Tribal America = Tsisqua
Hawk Pope = TheRebel
Tecumseh Brown Eagle = Niiki

All people who joined NAFPS claiming to be enrolled members of their Nations. All lies. Like I said, the truth always comes out.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on August 06, 2009, 11:47:04 am
I agree with you. These people are all frauds! I posted the information I found on Stewart Maracle, his obituary. Apparently Renz/Niiki have no respect even for the dead.
The British duo Linda-Lou and Zoi Lightfoot, have convinced Indians that they are real. You can see this is firstnations.com. It really is sad that some aboriginal people here in Canada are so gullible. I was attacked in that group and banned for exposing a black wannabee super Indian, Charles Thompson AKA Charles48141 AKA Chuck (Cherokee Freedmen, Black Olmec, Washitaw, Binay, Nuwaubian and lifelong welfare recipient). One sure sign of a fraud is to see how strongly they defend other frauds.
I also agree that one does not need to be Indian to fight frauds. I am a PODIA who believes strongly in protecting human and civil rights of all peoples, including aboriginal from exploitation. My activities have cost me dearly, but I believe it is necessary to expose these people and stop their abuse of native people ad culture.
I thank all those who have contributed to this thread, the "Treaty House" and TBE. Spread the word about all of these people,confront them in every forum and they will disappear, because they cannot live in the light of day once exposed...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on August 06, 2009, 04:11:09 pm
Someone who knows how to get the headers off an email send me an IM. Let's see where this email from "Stew" actually came from.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on August 06, 2009, 05:52:10 pm
Al, check your PM's.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on August 06, 2009, 10:12:56 pm
This is from ancestry.com

Stewart Maracle
Tammy LaForme  (View posts)  Posted: 10 Aug 2001 11:57PM GMT 

Classification: Obituary
Surnames: Maracle, Powless, Hill, Wable, rogozinski
MARACLE-Suddenly on Friday, March 23, 1966 Stewart Maracle of 4 Webling Street, Brantford, in his 57th year; beloved husband of Mary E. Powless; dear father of Mrs. James (Verna) Wable, Niagara Falls, New York; Mrs. George (Eileen) Hill and Mrs. Steve (Brenda) Rogozinski both of Buffalo, New York; Sherwin of Brantford; Kenneth of Ohsweken; Vivian and Marilyn at home. Resting at Styres Funeral Home, Ohsweken, for funeral service on Sunday from funeral parlor at 1:30 p.m. to Plymouth Brethren Hall, Interment in adjoining cemetery. Evening service Saturday, 8 p.m.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on September 14, 2009, 09:35:52 pm
Just found this in Frosty's group. This may sort out who these people are...

Attachment(s) from shawn

4 of 4 File(s)
 Chaliawa Letter of Direction to Stewart pg 3.pdf Chaliawa Duty to Consult & Land Rights Letter pg 1& 2a .pdf Chaliawa Letter of Direction to Stewart pg. 1 & 2a.pdf Chaliawa Duty to Consult & Land Rights Letter pg 3.pdf
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on October 07, 2009, 05:20:16 pm
I think that Keely has proven her point, this person Renz AKA Nikki is a fraud and this thread should be moved to where it belongs, FRAUDS.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: bls926 on October 25, 2009, 04:32:41 pm
Walter making news in Ohio.


Ancient graves ruined? Area man says gravel pit is disturbing tribal site
Historian weighs in

October 25, 2009

RICHLAND COUNTY -- If you think Walter Renz gets prickly when asked -- however discreetly -- for proof of his Native American heritage, he positively bristles when thinking about what he calls the rape of a burial mound at a northeastern Richland County gravel pit.

The owner of that gravel pit wants to see proof of that claim.

Renz, self-described Chief of the Chaliawa Nation, is trying to preserve what he says is a ceremonial Thunderbird mound on land once owned by his grandfather. Now it is the site of the Ganges Gravel Co.

The rural Butler Township man said he discovered the area was disturbed when he went there in July with ceremonial food offerings to honor his ancestors.

"I saw they had started getting gravel from the edge of the mound and found a large rock with crystal in it at the very edge of the mound," he said. Renz identified the rock as a mound boundary marker because of its size, the fact that it was worked into a typical wall block-type shape with rounded corners and because it had several red ochre etchings of animals and tribal symbols on it.

Renz also recovered bone fragments and a "staff stone" that he said traditionally would adorn the top of a ceremonial staff.

He said he had been watching the gravel pit since April from his parents' property, which was not part of the original land sale, after he noticed a path had been cut across the mound to get trucks in and out of the dig area.

Renz said the man who bought the 120-acre area from his grandparents was aware of the mound -- and while Renz thought the owner desecrated the area by stripping it of trees, he said the man respected the 3-acre mound.

Not so the current owner, Renz said.

Renz said he approached Ganges Gravel Co. owner Don Daugherty in June to discuss the taboo back-and-forth trips across the mound and digging that was beginning to encroach on land previously understood as off-limits. Daugherty said he had heard nothing of a mound from the previous owner.

Daugherty said in a statement released by his attorney, Eric Miller of Mansfield, that he first met Renz when he bought the Ganges Gravel Co. 16 years ago, and has talked with him many times in the years since. He said Renz is the only member of his family to make any claim that the property is sacred Native American land.

Renz said he presented Daugherty with a proposed agreement in late August that would restore the site and ensure its safekeeping.

The simple contract, which Renz drew up with guidance from similar documents registered by tribes concerned with other sites, calls for a halt to all digging within 25 feet of the mound area, replacing all dirt that has been removed and prohibiting vehicles from running over or within 25 feet of the site. It also calls for the Chaliawa Nation to take full control of the designated site, to place fence posts and pine trees around the area and to prevent desecration or further damage.

"He can still stay in business and operate around the area," Renz said. "If he persists in driving over the mounds, I will fight him."

Daugherty said that when he was presented with the proposal to essentially hand over three acres of his property, he asked Renz to supply solid evidence, which has not been done.

"I have been shown no historical or archaeological records with regards to the claims Walter Renz is making on our land," he said. "My company will now begin its own search of historical records to see if this claim has merit."

Renz said the Thunderbird Mound is one of the oldest in the area, dating back 8,000 years.

He picks up shards of a clay-fired pipe or rudimentary spear tip, even several small bone fragments he says he's found at the site, and explains their origins and uses to visitors. He noted that the mound in question was included in a federal survey in 1887. About 100 similar burial sites lie within a 30-mile radius, that were either part of the survey or noted in oral histories passed down through generations of his extended family.

"It's important that we protect these mounds because people are starting to sell off farm land," Renz said. "The Creator gave us these spots for our mounds and we have to protect them at all costs."

Scott Schaut, director of the Mansfield Memorial Museum, said the Ohio Archaeological and Historical Society did a study of Native American sites in 1914 and 1915 that surveyed Ohio's counties and inventoried all known sites. The survey mapped, among other things, burial mounds, full and partial earthen enclosures, village locales, petroglyphs, flint quarries, caches and rock shelters.

According to Schaut, a mound exists just outside Plymouth and another lies along the old railroad line between Shelby and Mansfield -- but the 95-year-old survey doesn't note remains in the area of the gravel pit. "That's not to say there aren't any," Schaut said. "It could be they missed them, although they did an incredible job for 1914 and 1915."

The early 20th century survey also shows major native historical sites in and around Mansfield as well as near Savannah and just east of Ashland. Also, in Green Township, near Perrysville, is a site where the tribal village of Greentown once stood. Recently, a group out of the Munsee Delaware tribe has begun an effort to develop a historically accurate reproduction of the village, which at its peak in the 1830s contained up to 150 dwellings. A burial site also lies in the Bellville-Butler area; on private property, it remains undisturbed as far as he knows, Schaut said.

"There probably are other sites in Richland County that officials have not been alerted to because people are afraid they'll be looted," he said.

Schaut said the area is rich with artifacts because prehistoric and historic native people lived here or migrated through seasonally. He said Ohio also has rich veins of flint, which was used for arrows, weapons and trading. "You can go through farmers' fields between Mansfield and Plymouth and find things all over the place."

By law, construction projects must be stopped if human remains or important objects or relics are found. Police and the coroner are called in if the remains are suspected to be human. If the artifacts or remains are determined to be prehistoric, all work on the site must be stopped until the Ohio Historical Society determines whether they have historic value.

Schaut emphasized that having a site listed on an historic archaeological register does not necessarily protect it. He noted that several years ago, construction on Ashland's Super Walmart store was briefly delayed until it was determined that artifacts found at the site were not historically significant.

Schaut said claims against a company for destroying an archeologically historic site generally will not hold up in court unless the site is confirmed and documented.

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/article/20091025/NEWS01/910250314
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on October 28, 2009, 04:42:33 am
Looks like a great opportunity for me  ;D I am going to contact this gravel company and inform then that Walter Renz is not even Indian, and as much as a fake as he is, I highly doubt that there is a burial ground anywhere on that property... I would be happy to stand up against Renz... he screwed with the wrong person and the wrong family  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on October 28, 2009, 01:43:41 pm
Renz should be moved to frauds. I believe that Keely has proven that he fraudulently stole her family history. "Niiki" is clearly a non aboriginal who has misrepresented him/herself and used this group to slander members and demonstrated that he/she is mentally unbalanced, and probably involved with other frauds.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on October 29, 2009, 10:32:13 pm
Renz should be moved to frauds. I believe that Keely has proven that he fraudulently stole her family history. "Niiki" is clearly a non aboriginal who has misrepresented him/herself and used this group to slander members and demonstrated that he/she is mentally unbalanced, and probably involved with other frauds.

Poor Walter is upset... boohoo Walter... he sent me some weird email with a phone number claiming it to be Don Naconna's LOL, thats ok, he seems to think he has the scoop on me too, which is hilarious! Nikki was a better researcher than Walter is..

But, Walter's dad has said his son is crazy (I think most of us knew that) and his mom said she is not Indian nor is her family Indian... Uhhh I knew that already too! Their family is not related to the Longtails, well DUH, I knew that too! 

I spoke with the owner of the gravel company, a super nice guy, I have assured him my help and the help of the Longtail family to put this matter to rest.

Oh Walter.... since you are reading.... I think that you should stop while your ahead, cuz right now your making false claims, dont let your lies get into a public record where it will always be used against you  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on October 30, 2009, 02:06:34 am
Thanks for the heads up. Now this is about stalking and I will take appropriate action.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on October 30, 2009, 02:27:30 am
Keely has done a great job, I also think that she has established that Renz and his alter ego Niiki should be moved to the fraud section. This thread, the TBE, Moorish Science and Camel Eye Treaty could all be merged into one thread. The one common element is Niiki who has demonstrated that he or she is not mentally well.
I understand the mentally ill and delusional people are often paranoid, and this appears to be the case with these people, Renz and Niiki, but stalking is illegal in Canada and in the US. I will protect myself and family from anyone I perceive to be a threat, whether they are or are not responsible for their actions.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Moma_porcupine on October 30, 2009, 03:09:27 am
Don
Quote
This thread, the TBE, Moorish Science and Camel Eye Treaty could all be merged into one thread.
Don, I agree that Nikki's writting style is similar to whoever is promoting that Crazy Camel Eye (nonexistent ) Treaty.

Nikki obviously doesn't like Tecumsah Brown Eagle and has rather irrationally defended Walter Renz , but I really don't see these people as all belonging in the same thread...

I do see you are repeatedly suggesting these people are all connected.
With the exception of Nikki's obvious loyalty to Walter Renz, I don't think there is a lot of evidence of that. What are you seeing that makes you think Nikki who obviously doesn't agree with Tecumseh Brown Eagle now belongs in the same thread ? Or that TBE has anything to do with the Nutty Non existent Camel's Eye Treaty ? Or that Walter Renz has anything to do with TBE or the CET ?

One thing I have learned participating here is that just because one group of people is making a false claim, it doesn't mean that all the bogus claiments in the same general area support each other, or that everyone denouncing that person is legit.   

Sometimes frauds fight with each other wanting to defend what they see as their own turf.

And some people just seem to be in it to create chaos and confusion...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on October 30, 2009, 02:26:23 pm
Moma Porcupine,
Niiki started the TBE thread because he and his fraudulent activities was getting in the way of Renz's fraudlent activities. What we have here is "Fraud Wars". When we throw mental illness and delusional behaviour into the mix we get a real circus. To make sure that these people can't do any harm to me, I have taken steps legally to protect myself and family after receiving Renz's semi literate rant. Renz couldn't even spell Mohawk in his threatening rant.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on November 04, 2009, 02:59:51 pm
Al,
We have established that Renz has fraudulently misrepresented himself and family, tried to slander me and Keely and should be declared officially a fraud. This thread should be moved and members should put the word out about him and his fraudulent tribe...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Don Naconna on November 27, 2009, 08:59:46 pm
He belongs in frauds like his rival frauds Tecumseh Brown Eagle, Jerry "Eaglefeather" and the Binay "tribe" and the Camel Eye Treaty Sovran Nations.Let's put them all in frauds and get the word out...
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on February 04, 2016, 10:05:15 pm
Back in 2009, I posted about a fraud, Walter Renz, who was using the surname LONGTAIL, and he is not of the Longtail family. I know this because I am of the Longtail family.

I originally posted it in "Frauds" but the post was moved to "Research Needed" which in a way, I felt insulted by that move, but I got over it... now I cannot post in "Frauds", I am some how blocked from posting in that group.

So, please consider this update on Renz... and hope he is caught SOON!

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/crime/2016/02/01/police-searching-couple-neighbors-disappearance-patricia-hudson-mansfield-ohio/79632158/

Also, please note where his own mother states he is NOT Native American!!

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Diana on February 04, 2016, 11:16:38 pm
Back in 2009, I posted about a fraud, Walter Renz, who was using the surname LONGTAIL, and he is not of the Longtail family. I know this because I am of the Longtail family.

I originally posted it in "Frauds" but the post was moved to "Research Needed" which in a way, I felt insulted by that move, but I got over it... now I cannot post in "Frauds", I am some how blocked from posting in that group.

So, please consider this update on Renz... and hope he is caught SOON!

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/crime/2016/02/01/police-searching-couple-neighbors-disappearance-patricia-hudson-mansfield-ohio/79632158/

Also, please note where his own mother states he is NOT Native American!!

Hi Keely, no one is allowed to post in the fraud section anymore, only a moderator can move someone into frauds. I believe this policy change took place about 5 years ago....??  ??? So please don't be offended.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Ingeborg on February 05, 2016, 12:07:24 am

Forgive my bout of German accuracy  ;) - of course we may *post* in the fraud section, it's just we're not able to start new threads there. If I remember correctly, this policy was introduced after several [...] started threads on non-dubious persons in the fraud section.

Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Keely on February 05, 2016, 02:07:55 am
Thanks for explaining it :)
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: educatedindian on February 05, 2016, 02:41:24 am
Back in 2009, I posted about a fraud, Walter Renz, who was using the surname LONGTAIL, and he is not of the Longtail family. I know this because I am of the Longtail family.

I originally posted it in "Frauds" but the post was moved to "Research Needed" which in a way, I felt insulted by that move, but I got over it... now I cannot post in "Frauds", I am some how blocked from posting in that group.

So, please consider this update on Renz... and hope he is caught SOON!

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/crime/2016/02/01/police-searching-couple-neighbors-disappearance-patricia-hudson-mansfield-ohio/79632158/

Also, please note where his own mother states he is NOT Native American!!

It's been some years, but looking again at the old thread, it was pretty confused to put it mildly. When we're unsure it stays under Research. We're different in that way from the Indianz board.

For this particular link, it's a strange turn. A dispute with a neighbor which may have turned criminal or violent.
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: loudcrow on February 06, 2016, 01:03:51 am
http://wkrn.com/2016/02/04/2-fugitives-out-of-ohio-arrested-in-tennessee/
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: loudcrow on February 06, 2016, 01:12:38 am
Here is another article with basically the same information as my previous post. However, this article
says the couple have been using the missing woman's credit cards.

http://www.wfxg.com/story/31148712/former-neighbors-of-missing-mansfield-woman-arrested
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: loudcrow on February 06, 2016, 03:28:52 am
It only gets worse!

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/local/2016/02/05/patsy-hudson-disappearance-suspects-wanted-other-states-walter-renz-linda-buckner-blehar/79867430/
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: loudcrow on February 10, 2016, 04:14:17 pm
http://www.wtoc.com/story/31162153/missing-womans-remains-found-in-several-different-locations
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: webflowerz1 on February 16, 2016, 07:06:38 pm
It is true everything that has been said about walter renz... he is in jail for murder, but all the other accusations are true as well. I lived not far from walter though I had not been to his house but had talked to him on the phone.. he had approached me thru facebook stating that his family was the protector of the Barnett clan.. it didn't take long for me to see holes in his claims.. ive attached the link to the local town paper.. some of my cousins went to school with him.. weve always known he was nut but never thought he was one capable of killing.. http://www.wmfd.com/news/single.asp?story=67393
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: webflowerz1 on February 16, 2016, 07:11:21 pm
I also wanted to say that one of my good friends went to his house and while visiting noticed a picture of a woman on his computer desk.. when pete asked walt who the woman was walt said it was his gramma or something like that pete knew it was a lie because the photo he had was pete's grandmother, as pete had posted it on facebook and that's how pete came to know walter.. 
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: debbieredbear on February 16, 2016, 08:10:03 pm
Thanks for your input, webflowerz1!
Title: Re: Walter Renz
Post by: Sparks on July 04, 2023, 01:05:37 am
This is the first update of this topic since 2016. The story ended in 2017, as can be ascertained from my links:

https://eu.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/19/renz-takes-witness-stand-his-murder-trial/100641520/
https://eu.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/24/renz-sentenced-life-prison-without-parole/100835362/
https://www.richlandsource.com/news/walter-renz-found-guilty-of-all-7-charges-including-murder/article_ce85bfa0-26a0-11e7-b3bd-5b09119b0578.html
https://www.richlandsource.com/news/walter-renz-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-without-chance-of-parole/article_6aa4ab8e-28ff-11e7-8d16-ef10fa7ca15e.html
https://www.wcbe.org/tags/walter-renz
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/walter-renz-sentenced-to-life-without-parole-for-death-of-neighbor/
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/local/man-gets-life-in-ohio-neighbors-slaying-dismemberment