The good people over at Bullshido basically run a NAFPS style site dedicated to debunking phony claims about martial arts. They ran into a site by two very young white guys (19 year olds) claiming to know and teach Native martial arts from half a dozen tribes. Here's the most relevant parts of the thread.
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http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99343Featherweight:
Hy, creole3687. I looked on your site and have some questions :
- who taught you the native hand to hand techniques and where ?
- what advanced concepts other styles missed ?
- what do you mean by revolutionary striking concept ?
creole3687:
hey riduan. I personally love these questions.
My native american experience is a long story but to make it short: my friend Scarecrow (just a nickname not an indian name) taught me some, and from there i traveled to different reservations and trained with them.
Our concepts are backbone to our system, i havent found a system that they dont actually work with, but I know you want an example: one concept is to control momentum, so you think less in technique and more in controlling the momentum of the fight.
The striking concept allows your strikes to flow more smothely and have more power, as well as being able to hit multiple times with a single strike.
If you want more information on any of these let me know.
Zendokan:
Some questions to start with:
What is the covent research team?
Who is funding it?
Who are in it?
What are their qualifications?
And why is a 19 year old head of it?
helmutlvx:
The possibility of codified Native American martial arts has been covered before.
Native American Martial Arts? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
Native American Martial Arts? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
There are lots and lots of questions that aren't answered by the OP or his website.
-What tribe did these techniques come from?
-Have these techniques been used against pro or amateur fighters?
-If so, what are their names and records?
-The minimum time for the "courses" is 1 hour. How much fighting technique can be learned in a single hour?
-Why are there no examples or videos?
-Why do the founders of this "system" not show their full names and credentials in detail?
There are so many fucking questions it's mind-boggling. This has to be a troll.
creole3687:
Oh and for everyone else, Native americans did have a real art: Now they didn't sit around in bathrobes, on their knees bowing to a false master that sits around getting fatter while the students train. They trained while hunting, playing sports, and fighting real warriors. They learned in real live or die combat.
it comes from many tribes: Apache, Sioux, black foot, chactaw, Nachez, as wel as many others. The techniques were tested first of all in combat then back here at our hq-they went through two years of testing with us. And because these techniques actually work in real combat, they are very simple and easy to learn.
Oh and I offer a service for a price, I have never known that to be the definition of a scam.
Plus if anyone were to actually be turned away by any comments on here, it would be sad considering not a single person who has labeled me a scam-has ever taken my courses or even seen them for that matter.
But I understand, traditionalists have a hard time accepting reality.
creole3687:
I had an advantage in learning because a friend-who already trained in it- pointed me in the right direction. but start off at reservations talking with elders-also research how to approach them- after you gain their trust, they will guide you. The worst thing you can do is give up, it shows weakness to them.
creole3687:
The reservations include fort, devil's, roes
but what i was saying before is if you are serious, go to one near you and gain their respect first, by doing that you basically have a resume for them,
by just going straight to a res that you know teaches combat, it will do more harm than good.
Hertzyscowicz:
Now, I got curious and tried to figure out which reservations you were referring to. There are at least thirteen reservations which "Fort" could refer to, and exactly zero that I can tell might be referred to as "devil's" or "roes".
Also, how would one go about getting the respect of Native Americans in a reservation?
Arskanator:
So Creole, you're 19 right? And your website says that you have backgrounds in 30 different arts. Do you count the native arts in this or are these the ones you learned before learning the native arts?
Also, you say in you site: "Now when most think of Native Americans, they think of bows, tomahawks, and war clubs. Well, that is the image Hollywood has left with us. "
Not really, since, you know, those are genuine native american weapons. Except that you left out knives. Tho native knives would prolly be classified as shanks nowadays but whatevs.
Why would the Sioux & Co go to battle doing judo chops and roundhouse kicks, when they could use their bows from a range or just do a 'tomahawk to skull' feint while shanking them to the balls?
hungryjoe:
Sioux:
Hell, here you've lumped in even more peoples than with the Apaches.
For you to say you trained with the Sioux would be akin to saying you trained with an Asian. A little more specific please.
How long did you spend in Montana?
All of the Native American people that I personally know, and there are many, who practice the martial arts, practice:
JMA, KMA, CMA, FMA, MMA or variations thereof. Other than a couple who build bows in the old way, and a few who knap arrowheads and knives, none practice "Native American" martial arts.
Requesting movement of this or a new thread started in MABS. The OP is full of shit.
CodosDePiedra:
I know a thing or two about Native Americans in my area, which doesn't necessarily reflect them elsewhere but sometimes it does because of similar social situations, and some of these things don't sit right. I've done some projects for my anthropology degree with the locals (Kumeyaay and Kwaaymi) and here's a few things I noticed:
-Native American groups often have some very long, elaborate traditions that they pass down. I've seen lots of traditional dances from different tribes. It seems to me that if there was any kind of fighting tradition to demonstrate, they would do so at one of their get togethers. I've never seen anything like this.
-Respect: although there is a level of respect expected, old Native Americans are some of the most easygoing, humorous people I've ever met. They won't have disdain for you if you don't know the customs if you're sincere; usually they'll laugh and explain something to you in a funny way. If you consider how many different tribes there were and the interaction between them for non-local resources it makes sense (for example, in my area all of the obsidian from the desert over the mountains to the coast comes from one area in the desert). When you interact with different cultures, some cultural relativism may creep in.
-It seems that some Native Americans that get into Asian martial arts like to then create a new art or tag their tribe onto the name of their old one (Chief Redfeather's kempo, John Perkins' stuff, etc)
-I'll bet Cajun read Attack Proof and ran with the ideas in it.
hungryjoe:
I spoke with Creole yesterday.
Could not get anything specific from him regarding who he had trained with and where. He did mention that there are a couple of Chickasaw reservations near him. Can inquire about this more in-depth later.
His main concern seemed to be about a line in my email to him wherein he was informed that this thread would rise on a Google search.
Coven Research
Creole
Livingston, LA martial arts
I informed him that the best damage control was to come here, come clean regarding his resume and discuss all.
Apparently that's not in his plan.
Zendokan:
Let's use some logic.
1) you are 19 years old with 10 years of experience: 19y - 10y = 9y.
So you started serious training at the age of 9.
What is the averige level of thinking of a 9 year old?
2) You claim a background in 30 different martial Arts over your period of 10 years training: 30 arts / 10 years = 3 arts/year or 4 months in every art.
[sarcasm].That is indeed enough time to become proficient in arts [/sarcasm]. since a Judo BB takes minimum 6 YEARS and a BJJ BB 10 to 12 YEARS.
Now in theory you can "learn" a lot of Martial Arts if you stay in the same style-groups so that you can build on previous experience. Unfortunally this is mostly true for unarmed systems and lesser for weapon systems.
Kickboxing Style-group: Boxing, Kickboxing, Savate, Sanda, Muay Thai, Full-Contact, Pradal Seray, etc...
Grappling Style-group: Judo, Greco-Roman, Freestyle, SAMBO, BJJ, etc...
Problem is well that you have to be proficiant in one art of every subgroup before you can build further on it: minimum 5 years for a striking art, minimum 6 to 8 years for a grappling art.
But with weapons it is a different story: swinging a katana has got nothing to do with Krabongs or with a Tomahawk, so the skills do not transfer as easy from one weapons art to another.
3) All Martial Arts used in warfare are weapons based with only a little of hand to hand combat in it. Just enough to survive for a few moments to pick up a weapon from a fallen combatant.
This is true for 'ancient' systems as for 'modern' systems.
Judo is developed from the hand-to-hand system of 3 original Japanese Ryu styles, yet when it was original created Judo had 40 throws, about 29 grappling techniques and some striking that was mostly used as a set-up for a throw or lock technique.
So the unarmed techniques of 3 'Samoerai' schools combined were only 40 throws, 29 grappling techniques and some striking.
Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) is created from Muay Thai/BJJ/Kali yet has to be teached in the matter of weeks. So you can be sure that they only see the basics of each art. They are no match for a serious practisener of these arts in hand-to-hand combat.
But that isn't the goal of their hand-to-hand training, the goal is to stay alive just long enough to pick-up another weapon or until their comrades join in.
So with this logical breakdown, please elaborate on your 10 years experience, starting when you were 9 and the level of proficiency that you have in the 30 Martial Arts that you train in.
