NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Somekind on August 16, 2009, 03:12:42 am
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Blessings to one and all.This is my first time posting on this site.I am a novice Shamanic practitioner making his way down the red road.Looking forward to chatting with one and all.
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Um, you DO know that this is not a board for "shamanic practitioners", but one to expose frauds?
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I figured that out...how else am i to know who to trust with my time.
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I figured that out...how else am i to know who to trust with my time.
How about none of them?
Or alternatively, to start with, rule out any of them who claim to be following the red road or mention anything Native American. Then be very cautious about the rest of them.
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Good points, Taraverti.
I'm inspired to add: Consider trusting those in your extended family, or those who are trusted by members of your extended family and community, and who have earned your trust in person and over time (years, but preferably decades).
Consider trusting those who meet these criteria and who know how to pray the way your ancestors prayed. Consider trusting those who you see living their lives with honour and integrity and humility, helping the community not taking from it.
Don't trust anyone you meet on the Internet. Don't look for a teacher. Don't look for a quick fix.
Get to know people in person, slowly, over time. Be very patient and pray a lot.
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Thank you all for your suggestions.The one person i did trust was my Mom,who passed away 15 years ago this month.
As for a quick fix,if that was the case i would be dirt poor.I have had a few try to convince me theirs is the way.
I pray everyday and listen with both my head and heart.I guess i mispoke in my greetings,please forgive me.
Blessings to you all.
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I can tel you a few things to watch out for. If a person says they are a shaman, spiritual leader etc, but they "had a visiion" to teach non natives, RUN. If they can't name who taught them/gave them permission, be aware. If they want money, it's never a good thing. I see people who will take abuse and nonsense from someone that they would not take from another non-native. Trust your gut. If it doesn't feel right, it is probably not good.
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I can tel you a few things to watch out for. If a person says they are a shaman, spiritual leader etc, but they "had a visiion" to teach non natives, RUN. If they can't name who taught them/gave them permission, be aware. If they want money, it's never a good thing. I see people who will take abuse and nonsense from someone that they would not take from another non-native. Trust your gut. If it doesn't feel right, it is probably not good.
Good advice!
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I sure did follow my gut feelings. Took me a little bit but I did listen. I do come from native blood and I do try to follow my path everyday. At the time that I took the shaman coarse I was somewhat "dumb" and when I shared this with my native family they wanted to hit me over the head with a war stick! Now I listen to my elders.
Peace and love
runningdeer
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For anyone looking for spiritual community, of any type, there are some really good suggestions in this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1048.0
Also a general outline of how to spot and avoid predators: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2225.0
The fact is, there are predators and exploiters who cruise the Internet, looking for people who are seeking a teacher. Sometimes they even prey on those who aren't seeking anything, but just appeal to their particular kinks. Sadly, there are predators who read this very message board, looking for an opportunity. While most of the folks who participate here on NAFPS are nowhere near as gullible or vulnerable as those you'll find on general (or "spiritual") chat boards and the like, even some really smart and jaded people have been harmed by experienced predators. There are many people who read these boards but never post. The predators wait and get a sense of people's vulnerabilities, then contact their potential victims via private message, email or phone. So, yeah, we have some very real reasons for telling people to be very careful.
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Just a comment or two if I may. Shaman is Asiatic in derivation Siberian I believe. There are no Native American "Medicine-people, Holy people, Priest, or Elders that adhere to this term that I know of. Suggestion. Discover which Native American culture that you descend from. Find living people of this culture open ears close mouth, find patience. It has been my experience that when an Elder is needed one will come. Caution! there is so much BS and ignorance out there among the Wannabee Tribe one must be very careful. Not every thing that sounds good or right is. Be prepared to spend whatever time it takes to discover the correct path. Years if need be. Weigh each discovery with the Creator and if it doesn't feel right it probably isn't. With respect to you all. "LittleOldMan"
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I know that if you really need a medicine man/woman you will know them or an elder or family member will take you to a medicine man/woman I was told by my elder that a shaman NEVER walks around saying that I am a shaman! I did go on line and found a site that said "come walk with a shaman" and I did pay $135.00 for a 10 week online coarse. I did gain some valuable things from this lesson however I wish now that I would of sat down with my elders and asked the questions and gained the teachings from them. I was going through a time in my life where I felt toubled and this is what I sought out. I do not know if this person is a fruad or not so I am asking for help on this. Yes we have to be careful and in these times alot of us are seeking healing,and answers to many things. Just listen to your heart and gut and you will know the answer.
peace to all
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I work with people, non natives. I don't charge them. I don't normally talk much about it, except at times like this. Just to say that there are a few people who are not ndn, who practice a spirituality that is not ndn native, and who are 'out there' .. but none that I know of advertise.. as they are not doing this as a 'job' as a way to make a buck or make a living.
My personal view is that the ndn cultures have their own peoples to teach, or heal or help in whatever way that their tradition shows them to work in these matters. Non ndn peoples do not really have such. Therefore, you have a flood of people seeking ndn ways. Mostly because they have no people of their own to go to for such assistance in these areas.
My intentions are to start a sort of place that can be found online, for those seeking.. who are not ndn and this is not an ndn site, although any peoples would be welcomed providing they are real and not exploiters or charlatans. I have no wish to earn money off of other people's trauma and pain. That is sick to me.
I have a website that's been dormant for a while, handed down to me by my brother when he passed. I think this nafps site has helped me figure a way to create the new direction.. I was going to create a new site, but I already have one.. and I know if I let the domains go, someone will take them and exploit them.. which is why I've been hanging on to them for so long while nothing is really happening there.
Well, just rambling my thoughts. Mostly, I just wanted to say that there are 'real' people who do 'real' work that is not ndn tradition, maybe would seem more 'new age-ish', but I don't feel I can really help what it appears to be. I know what I've been doing, I've been doing long before the nuage make a buck scene..
My intentions in trying this approach with my website, is to help cut the nuage make a buck scene. People are in need.. and all they can find for help is someone they have to pay a couple hundred bucks to. And then, it's iffy at best, or not at all.. that any of the work was real.
Maybe if people had somewhere else to go for their spiritual needs, they'd leave the ndn's alone? Or, maybe if there was an outlet of reality for people seeking help, they'd stop spending hundreds of dollars on the fakes... that is my thought.
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Hi Critter,
I am new here I am Cherokee/Choctaw,
I am not sure about what you are speaking, are you Native? Would you be willing to share what you teach?
I am very aware of those seeking the Spirituality of our people, this is not something you learn but is born within ones heart. It was instilled within us, from childhood our traditions, ceremonies.Passed down from generations. This you can not find in a book, or cyberspace, to try to do so it will Never be correct. Are you saying that the only Spirituality out there for non native is Native?
Since you have worked with so many, why is it that so many non-native people want to/drawn to our ways? I truely want to know.
We do NOT have shamans! never have. The best way to learn is go visit a REZ and spend time there doing work, no matter what it be. The Elders will always be watching, they will come to you, not the other way around. Anything learned from the internet or paid for will be mixed teachings and not true. This is not our way.
Anyway my thoughts. :)
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Hi Critter,
I am new here I am Cherokee/Choctaw,
I am not sure about what you are speaking, are you Native? Would you be willing to share what you teach?
I am very aware of those seeking the Spirituality of our people, this is not something you learn but is born within ones heart. It was instilled within us, from childhood our traditions, ceremonies.Passed down from generations. This you can not find in a book, or cyberspace, to try to do so it will Never be correct. Are you saying that the only Spirituality out there for non native is Native?
Since you have worked with so many, why is it that so many non-native people want to/drawn to our ways? I truely want to know.
We do NOT have shamans! never have. The best way to learn is go visit a REZ and spend time there doing work, no matter what it be. The Elders will always be watching, they will come to you, not the other way around. Anything learned from the internet or paid for will be mixed teachings and not true. This is not our way.
Anyway my thoughts. :)
Hi, no, I am not native. I do not practice any native traditions, as none have ever been taught to me, nor have I sought out to learn those traditions. I spent some time in sweat lodge in the early 90's, but it was for healing purposes within my life. And, was not the direction of my life. I am grateful. And would never soil the help given to me by spitting on it.
I don't teach anything. Some people try to tell me that I teach, but I don't believe or feel that I teach anything. And I never tell anyone that I am a teacher.
I also do not read books. I can probably count the number of books I have read.. I read Castaneda when I was very young, in the early 70's.. read the 2nd set when they came out later and disliked them and do not believe it. Early 70's read some books by Lobsang Rampa, and read a Ruth Montgomery book, that I barely remember. In the 90's I then read Fool's Crow and Lame Deer as suggested by the people I sweated with. Um.. read Celestine Prophecy, a bunch of crap. After that, I haven't read anything. Oh late 90's I read a book about a man's near death experience.. That's all I can think of that I've ever read. I've met people who all they do is read this book, that book, it drives me crazy. I mean, put down the books, how do you know what is your own thought when your head is filled with someone else's?
In the mid 90's I learned Reiki, but never really practiced it. It seemed to more or less help me streamline what I've been doing since I was child.
No, I am not saying the 'only' spirituality out there for non natives is native spirituality. What I"m saying is that non natives are 'seeking' spirituality, some turn to Eastern beliefs, while some turn to native beliefs, and others seem to make up their own from a mish mash of differing beliefs. It is because non natives have no culture, no 'traditions' handed down, except for religion, which, as in the Christian religion, the book has been rewritten a few times, changing this and that, and basically, there isn't 'traditions' handed down. There are beliefs handed down which change over time, and change based on interpretation of the book. To me, this is not 'tradition' nor a 'traditional' way/form of 'spirituality'. To me, it is not spiritual.
The many I've worked with so far in my life, we did not discuss ndn traditions. I worked with them in aspects of their life to help them.
One person I met who claimed she was Cherokee she taught people, but I elected friendship rather than teacher/student relationship. I still learned some things, but they are not ndn traditional things, and she does not teach them as being tradition ndn ways. I personally think she has some multiple personality disorders and on most counts with me was wrong, almost 100% of the time. But, I don't feel she is 'harmful' to anyone.. she does not sell and she does not claim to be teaching ndn ways... she claims to be ndn, but not that she is 'teaching ndn'.
I did go through hell though, and still feel many instances of what happened in those years with her could have been avoided if she had been honest. And, I should have followed the first warning I felt within and ran.. but I didn't.. so.. I'm to blame as well.
My 'assessment' of non ndn's flocking to other spiritual ways, that are steeped in tradition such as the Eastern and ndn ways, is based on just what I see of it, it's my own assessment of it. That they are seeking something spiritual, and do not find it in the religions handed down, so seek instead to the traditions of other older cultures. The religion I know of does not allow for certain spiritual aspects of being, it is called evil. People are not so stupid.. in my assessment, they 'feel' (not emotional) that something exists.. and seek to find it. They turn to those who they perceive seem to have it.. ndn's, as well as the Eastern... such as Buddhist. There are many in the Buddhist lineages that are also fake. Those lineages are intact to teacher to student, and just as with the ndn's there are people claiming this or that with some Buddhist and it's false.
People seek because they need.. which is why the people you encounter are also so 'needy'.. that is my personal 'assessment'. There are also those who, in my view, are not really 'seeking' from a place within, but are just who knows what pretending this and that.. for who knows why.. some to make a fast buck, some for self esteem issues.. some because they're just crazy, and some again, who knows why.
I wasn't taught by elders, or by ndn peoples. What I do isn't ndn tradition. I don't know what it is, to be honest. And I say that with a little apprehension as I do not wish to be labeled this or that or whatever else can happen by making such a statement.
I have choices too.. I can die and go back to wherever it is I came from, or I can stay and be morbidly depressed living each day simply because I'm still breathing.. or, I can live what I am.. regardless of whatever anyone wants to call at me.. the areas I work in with people would fall under 'new age' terms I think, but I can't help that. All I can say is I've been doing it longer than the 'new age' came on the scene.
I think people take not just from ndn and eastern but also, from the mystery of things learned/known by many without a traditional way of being.. and use that too to make a buck. And call it new age.
The point is, I want to set up a network of service for people that is real, and not for profit. This new age make a buck is way out of control. I don't know if I can do it, I know I can't do it alone.. we'll see.. I don't know why not to try it. If the new age make a buck people had competition, real competition, where people could get help for free.. well, I don't know, maybe that would put a stop to some of it. That is the intention, anyway, to put a hole in their bucket.
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It is because non natives have no culture, no 'traditions' handed down, except for religion, which, as in the Christian religion, the book has been rewritten a few times, changing this and that, and basically, there isn't 'traditions' handed down.
But Critter, this is simply not true. People who think NDN and Eastern traditions are the only surviving "mystical" traditions are simply not looking in the right places.
Speaking as an Irish-/Scottish-American and Gaelic Polytheist: Those whose families have assimilated into mainstream culture have a lot of work to do. Even those of us who have some fragments surviving in our families, and who didn't have Christianity shoved down our throats, haven't had it easy. We've had to find others who have fragments, and over time put together something more complete. It's taken hard work and patience, but we also have our old people and tradition-bearers. And we have middle-aged people who have been doing this for most of our lives, and young adults who were raised in these fuller, revived traditions.
Many people, of all ages, were raised with the songs and stories and folklore that embody an earth-based, mystical worldview, both in the Six Celtic Nations and the diaspora. For some, maybe most, it was just cultural, but for others it has always been part of their spirituality.
Don't rule out books; there are solid collections of old prayers, songs and folklore, including ancient manuscripts with our mythologies. It's better to learn these things in one of the intact oral traditions, but if people hadn't made the choice to be less secretive and record some of these things, we would have lost even more. These sorts of historical records, and personal stories of our ancestors about their beliefs and experiences and daily lives, are of a whole different order than the occult and newage books that claim to teach spiritual techniques. You probably won't find them on the bookshelf of your local occult/nuage store, and some have never been translated into English, but they exist in University libraries, cultural centers and private collections. Of course you can't learn ceremony and spirit work from a book... though if you already have some training and aptitude, reputable, old books of prayer and song and tales can give you more to contemplate and work with. Sincere prayer and right behaviour can open doors to meeting the right people.
I know people from a variety of European ethnicities who have solid traditions that have survived. They may not all be as full and culturally-integrated and widespread as these sorts of things are in traditional NDN communities, or in a Hindu ashram, but as more and more people have looked to earth-based ways as an alternative to mainstream religions, things have improved. There are also far, far more flakes and frauds than genuine people. But like with anything, what is good and valuable and solid is not going to be found quickly or easily. We don't have to be nuagers or pretendians to have a mystical, earth-based, meaningful spiritual practice.
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But Critter, this is simply not true. People who think NDN and Eastern traditions are the only surviving "mystical" traditions are simply not looking in the right places.
You are right, of course, I was being narrow minded thinking of American 'nuage' culture peoples.. which btw.. I've decided my idea probably won't work anyways, because nuager's are like kids.. they want the 'new shiny toy with trinkets and gadgets' rather than the old hand me down that has withstood the test of time..
:)
Thanks for the great response..
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Oh, about books, yes, a book can be really great, I was more so referring to some I know who read books from one thing to the next in every category they can get their hands on, and then talk it like it's knowledge. I think you know what I mean..
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i always end up bowing my head in dismay whenever i meet someone claiming to be a shaman. they have no idea, i'll give you an example of a true Medicine=Man. He, in his 80's. came from Hobema, came to Eskasoni, my Rez, met with my best friends family, my best friends son was born with a birth defect. one of the tiny boy's legs was 2 inches shorter than the other. The Medicine=Man met and spent alot of time with the family dialoging and sharing many things, then he left, and went back to Hobema, and 3 nites later, the little boy ran out of his room, excited, and explained in Mi'kamq, that the old man from the other nite came to him in his room, and when they looked down, the boys legs were the same size..... and are still to this day.... these people who call themselves shaman, can you enter into Ceremony, and your Spirit leave your body, to go heal the poor sick? they have no idea of the Power and the Majesty that is L'nu Spirituality, which is only can be measured by Humility....
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There are real dangers in today's world with people 'playing' with these things. I don't know how some people have learned this or that.. I can't even say how it is I have learned what it is I know.. and then some days, I cannot even say I know anything..
But.. there are people who've learned to do 'things' in 'energy' for lack of better word. There is a group, for example, that I know of who meet and play practice of possessing each other. They wanted me to join their group. I told them it was wrong on every level to have such a group. People do not understand it is not a game.
There is a reason these 'medicine' (for lack of better word) ways are not taught/given to the masses. It takes a humble person to carry such a service.. and also, a lifetime.
You may or may not choose to believe when I say how I've had the opposite of good coming at me for many years. Battling freak people who let their selfish wants/desires go before their good sense.. attacking me constantly until I was nearly dead.
I am still not wholly well from that. But that is the example of people who learn things they should not have ever learned. And one more reason why ANY ways that involve such wonder, should be kept safe and secure and not taught in a world full of people who have no such clue of such things.
Thank you for sharing you story.. it is good to know of.
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what red road has shaman practictioners? hope it didn't cost you anything.
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I don't know of any. I don't pay money for spiritual. I've always believed that to be wrong. This belief was reinforced in me when I was fortunate to be allowed to attend sweat lodges. The people there voiced it.
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It is ture, sad but true, that many do not have any concept of what native medicine is about. For sometime noe whenever someone says they are a "shawman" I ask them where in Russia or Siberia they come from. Most have no idea why I would ask them that. Hm . . .
I've had a few people ask me to make medicine. I usually jerk my head around and with eyes as wide as an owl's say "Make What??!! I'm not a medicine person!" I've told several that they have no idea what they are asking for or even how to go about finding a medicine person.
I've only once ever had the services of a native medicine person. I've never told anyone about it and I'm not about to go into the details here but I know this from that one experience - native medicine is powerful and nothing to be toyed with.
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Hi I am Melvin G. Brewster, I am visiting this site because someone named Durenda slandered me on it. Do not be so quick to judge Native people with Dr. degrees and who follow the traditional road of their people! Maybe i needed to brag about all my victories and my credentials and so forth and my RED ROAD involvement? Now take care, you want to know me or talk about me talk to my face like a Native. The fact is, if people like me are not there for the PEOPLE we all lose, we need scietists to fight against non-Indian scientists it is simple. Without brain power, we lose, I have too often hear so-called (People who have positions bestowed upon them by their people without knowing anything) blow it for everyone because they do not know anything. All they know is their own prejudice and bias and are filled with hate and jealousy! ... Pesha Tabidua,
Dr. Brewster
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who is Durenda where did she talk about you do you have the post???
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I have to also ask what Critter just asked, Dr. Brewster I just ran a forum search for your name and the only post or topic I found it in was your post here.
nvwatohiyadv
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There is a thread that asked about Melvin Brewster.
The link is below
I don't see where anything negative was said.
The key points are quoted below...
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=338.0
Durenda
Have you heard of this person?
educated indian
his degree is legit.
educated indian
it sounds like he's making fun of Nuage ideas
educated indian
this group sounds like it could do some very good work in badly needed fields.
educated indian
some of what they do could potentially help us here
educated indian
What was it you were concerned about Durenda?
Durenda
Not questioning, just checking. Thank you!
I saw this yesterday but didn't know where to post my response as all the threads Melvin posted this complaint in, are on a different topic.
Maybe Melvin just noticed their name and what this message board generally discusses and didn't read what was actually said about them...? Maybe to make it clear that no one thought Melvin was a fraud, this thread could be moved to the Archive as no longer a concern?
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Wado, Mama Porcupine, I must have typed the name incorrectly in the search window.
Dr. Brewster, if you follow the link you'll see this was some time ago and that the general consensus was that you were NOT a fraud. Indeed, the opposite is suggested.
nvwatohiyadv
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Hi I am Melvin G. Brewster, I am visiting this site because someone named Durenda slandered me on it. Do not be so quick to judge Native people with Dr. degrees and who follow the traditional road of their people! Maybe i needed to brag about all my victories and my credentials and so forth and my RED ROAD involvement? Now take care, you want to know me or talk about me talk to my face like a Native. The fact is, if people like me are not there for the PEOPLE we all lose, we need scietists to fight against non-Indian scientists it is simple. Without brain power, we lose, I have too often hear so-called (People who have positions bestowed upon them by their people without knowing anything) blow it for everyone because they do not know anything. All they know is their own prejudice and bias and are filled with hate and jealousy! ... Pesha Tabidua,
Dr. Brewster
Everything about Dr. Brewster has now been archived here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=338.0
[NO LONGER A MATTER OF CONCERN: Dr. Melvin Brewster]