NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: snorks on July 29, 2006, 06:12:47 pm
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He wrote an animal book that I do have. I am curious - how is he a fraud? Is he Indian or what? His name also popped up in several museum exhibitions - he was helping them to curate some exhibits. I got his book at the Smithsonian Museum shop.
As far as his book went, I just took it as a beginning point to explore ideas about animals. He does present a lot of New Age mish-mash with Indian ideas. I figured that was just him and to disregard it.
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Maybe you should have posted this in the section for research. I can't tell you if he is a fraud or not. Just what my friend said that it was his wife who came from a powerful lineage, and that he (my friend) felt that she was the real power. My friend passed over in december, so I can't ask him anything.
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Hello Snorks,
Within the Weylin thread I had made passing mention that Bobby Lake-Thom was according to Weylin, one of his teachers and I listed the following links:
About: Bobby Lake-Thom (author), of the bestseller Native Healer.
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0644/2001005515-d.html
Bobby Lake-Thom was instructed by:
Wahsek, a medicine man in the northern mountains.
However I had made no remarks regarding him specifically as the thread had to do with Weylin. And yes, perhaps the Moderators will move this thread to it's proper position under "Research."
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I think there was a discussion about his father, Charlie Thom, in the old yahoo group. From what I remember, many of us thought he was not a fraud but an elder (or "lapsed elder") who was doing things most would disagree with, specifically selling ceremony and franchising out "rights to do ceremony" to white wannabes for a price. What set off the discussion was a white wannabe who came to NAFPS saying she'd been authorized by him.
For his son, so far I'd say it's the same kind of mixed picture. He might have some knowledge, but does some things most would disagree with. Starting with "putting out a shingle" online to solicit customers.
http://www.nativehealer.net/Healer2005/about.html
"Medicine Grizzly Bear,also known as Bobby Lake-Thom is a traditional Native Healer from northwestern California. He is half Karuk, part Seneca, Cherokee, and part Anglo...taught and trained since childhood by twelve different medicine men/women, ceremonial leaders, and tribal elders.
Some of his teachers included Beeman Logan, Rolling Thunder, Mad Bear Anderson, Martin Highbear, Charlie Red Hawk Thom, Calvin Rube, Bonita Masten, Yurok Holyman Dewey George, Florence Jones (and numerous other medicine men/women from different tribes)."
Right there you see a problem, since RT was regarded by most as exploiters and Mad Bear was an an imposter. Martin Highbear also gets his name thrown around a lot since he passed on, with him conveniently no longer around. Bobby Thom seems to be claiming to be trained in a whole lot of traditions not his own. We used to have a Karuk member in NAFPS who herself caused a lot of controversy because she turned to Nuage ideas, arguing their traditions were long gone.
"His apprenticeship spanned two decades and then he was ordained on Doctor Rock, Chimney Rock, Trinadad Head, California; Seneca Mountain/Thunder Rock, in New York, and finally, on Mt. Shasta, California."
Ordained? He became a Christian minister? And I'm really bothered by him bragging about his alleged training in such detail.
"For a better understanding of the significance, role, function, and status of “Bear Doctors??? or “Bear Medicine Men??? refer to the Shaman's Drum article (Winter, 1993) “Digging for Medicine: Bears in Native American Healing Traditions??? by David Rockwell. If you want a better understanding about "Indian Doctors and Shamans", Refer to the works of Alfred Kroeber (1928, 1942, 1976), Williard Park (1946), Joan Halifax (1978) and the research of other anthropologists."
Halifax is herself a pseudo shaman and so are the Shaman's Drum people.
"Bobby has conducted hundreds of ceremonies and lectures. He has been successfully doctoring Native people and non-Indian people for over twenty years. According to Indian custom and law he does not charge a fee for his doctoring and ceremonies, but according to the “law of reciprocity??? donations are usually offered in lieu of a fee for his healing work, spiritual counseling, and ceremonies."
At least he isn't demanding a big set fee up front like his father.
"He is the author of Native Healer (Quest Books, 1992) Spirits of the Earth (Plume/Penguin, 1998) and Call of the Great Spirit (Bear & Company, 2001). His numerous literary works have appeared in The Indian Historian, White Cloud Mental Health, The Shaman's Drum, Teacher's Magazine, Educator’s Digest, The Quest/Theosophical Society Magazine, Akwasasne Notes and Akewekon Literary Journal, Herbs Magazine; Humboldt Journal of Social Relations, and numerous other scholarly journals and magazines."
About half those journals are not scholarly, they're Nuage or pseudo shaman.
"He was a professor of Native American Studies for over 20 years teaching at Humboldt State University, Gonzaga University, and Eastern Montana College. He has served as a consultant for Indian reservation programs, tribes, organizations, and federal/state agencies for over twenty five years"
Like I said, a mixed picture. On most sites he's claiming to be a healer in either the Karuk tradition, or multiple traditions. I think the Seneca, like the other Six Nations, don't want anyone university trained as either elders or healers. But correct me if I got that wrong.
A comment from a review of one of his books.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452276500/103-7189130-3129450?v=glance&n=283155
"The ceremonies in this book are sketchy at best.
In the medicine wheel discription Mr. Lake-Thom uses the colors of Black, White, Red, and Yellow like in Nick Black Elk's vision, but he reverses the places for Earth and Water (This is the 8th or 9th tradition I have seen for setting up a medicine Wheel."
So why would a Karuk be using a wrong version of Lakota medicine wheels?
"Interesting" link on his site:
"Star Ancestors (UFO, Aliens, and Indians)" http://www.nancyredstar.com/
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I got his book at the Smithsonian Museum shop.
Be wary of the NMAI book shop. The books are not selected by the NMAI staff but by the Smithsonian book dealers and they go by the rankings from such places as Barnes and Noble, Amazon and the trades and not by authenticity of the information or the author. (I know, I worked there and had numerous arguments with the book buyers about some of the new age junk that was for sale in the museum's gift shop. I had several books pulled thankfully but not all of them and I haven't been able to make it back down there to raise any more noise.)
I had a list of new age books that the museum was selling. Also, I can probably get in touch with someone who has had direct clashes with Bobby Lake and Dark Rain, the twin terrors of the wannabe world. There's a guy I know on Indianz who has clashed with them several times because they were on the same commission board.
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Gee, um I didn't know that about the Smithsonian - I am more of a zoologist. How is Lake-Thom the terror of the wannabes? Or did I read that wrong.
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I think he meant Bobby and DR are wannabes.
I went looking for DR Thom. She IDs as Shawnee. No idea how she could be related to the Thoms, who are Karuk, unless it's by a married relative somehow.
I didn't see anything obviously exploitative in her work, just a few strange things like claiming Shawnee women warriors fought naked to mess with the heads of their enemies. But maybe I'm missing something.
WN, what's she done? Is the history she's pushing false?
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Talked with a friend of mine that is Loyal Shawnee. Stated it could have happen, but wasn't a practice. Sometimes the women did accompany their husbands but it was their role to fight. But they would if they had to. She said it sounds more like post-invasion ideas where the Europeans had to deal with 'scanty-clad NDN women. This DR Thom is from the "Ohio Shawnee". The Loyals were Tecumseh's. She didn't know if it differed or not. frederica
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I saw this at my library, looked suspicious:
Robert Lake-Thom--
Spirits of the Earth: A Guide to Native American Nature Symbols, Stories, and Ceremonies
http://www.amazon.com/Spirits-Earth-American-Symbols-Ceremonies/dp/0452276500
From Library Journal
Native Americans believe that animal spirits can ultimately influence everyday lives. Lake-Thom, a healer and a descendant of three Native American tribes, combines his own experience, work with tribal elders, and readings from folk tales to explain the significance of good- and bad-luck symbols to these tribes. For instance, the hummingbird is considered to be a good-luck messenger that can carry a person's prayers to the Creator; in contrast, the owl is considered a sign of bad luck and a messenger of death. In a clear and straightforward writing style, the author defines symbols such as the turtle, bear, and coyote for Karuk, Seneca, and Cherokee tribes. He also includes several chapters on how one can get in touch with animal spirits through active participation in ceremonies and establishing sacred places. There is a helpful index and accompanying sketches. Recommended for public libraries.?Vicki Leslie Toy Smith, Univ. of Nevada, Reno
Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc.
You can read the first page:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0452276500/ref=sib_fs_bod/104-3035076-7714324?ie=UTF8&p=S00K&checkSum=Rg7YMkRJLoh5OU39oeaDQs6BRaPAyijOUjiEP8WXFiU%3D#reader-link
And if you use the "Suprise me!" you can see more pages throughout (have to sign in)
It seemed very New Age and generic.
Also:
Robert Lake-Thom
Bobby Lake-Thom, known as Medicine Grizzly Bear, is a traditional Native healer and spiritual teacher of Karuk and Seneca descent (affiliated with the Quartz Valley Indian Reservation in California). He has been schooled in both Western and Native american traditions and has taught and lectured extensively aross the United States for more than three decades. He is the author of two previous books on Native American culture and spirituality, Native Healer and Chilula: People from the Ancient Redwoods, and his articles have appeared in The Indian Historian, The Journal for Ethnic Studies, Quest magazine, Shaman's Drum, and other publications. He lives near Mt. Shasta in Yreka, California.
http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Author/AuthorPage/0,,1000018487,00.html
Also see: Medicine Grizzlybear Lake
(I searched is Robert Lake-Thom on the forum and didn't find any threads, I didn't think to search the above name as I just found it, so if there's another thead please forgive me!)
http://www.nativehealer.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_Grizzlybear_Lake
I have my ideas, but I rather leave it up to the experts!
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Well, looking a few pages back I found a thread about him, but not using a name I'd expected.
Bobby Lake-Thom
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=818.0
There was nothing for Robert Lake-Thom or (I just searched) Medicine Grizzlybear Lake. So he goes by another name: Bobby!
Sheesh.
Sorry about double posting the same person.
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Don't worry about it. Feel free to share your ideas too.
One of the links you found had something interesting, downright revealing.
http://www.nativehealer.net/Healer2005/prophecies.html
"The Prophecy:
A Great Purification and Earth Changes
By Medicine Grizzly Bear Lake-Thom
Traditional Native Healer and Spiritual Teacher
www. nativehealer.net (April 2006)
Introduction:
In March 1975, I had a shamanistic visionary experience on a sacred coastal mountain, Trinidad, in northwestern California...
The spiritual vision and prophecy involved a UFO type encounter with a Flying Saucer, and the prophecy and teachings were given to me by ancient ancestral spirits. Although I have been laughed at by the public, scorned by my colleagues at the university, and even ridiculed by some of the Native American people for bringing the experience to the public eye, I realize, now that the symbols in this vision, i.e. the example of the flying saucer were appropriate in this era. The experience changed my whole life because it made me emotionally and psychologically ill, the stress from it caused a divorce in my marriage, and the embarrassment to my employer cost me my teaching position. Several months later, after the alleged “Close Encounter???, I found myself unemployed, broke, sick, homeless and destitute. I had nowhere to turn but to the Elders and Medicine people of my tribes for therapy. The experience served to be a death sentence of the old self, it completely changed my life and life-style, and it also proved to be a calling into the spiritual-cultural profession. It was during this time that I went through one of my most intensive shamanic trainings, called in Yurok, hokep, (for elaboration on the concept, refer to Spott and Krober, 1942; Buckley, 1980). If it wasn’t for the open-mindedness of the Native elders and the use of traditional healing methods, I would probably still be sick, or locked up in a mental hospital. But the burden and responsibility of this knowledge still weighs heavy upon my mind, socio-cultural life, and the academic profession I used to support my family. It is not fun being stigmatized as a “Doomsday Preacher???.
The shamanistic visionary type experience, UFO prophecy as I call it, and the predictions I was given about future Earth Changes was first documented in a New Age magazine, Psychic Times (Eureka, 1975),"
So seemingly he's happy to put himself into the Nuage category. So were his elders, who still took pity upon him and helped heal him from his mental health problems.
He follows this with some pretty generic prophecies, the kind that'd fit almost any era. But there were a few that are amazingly wrong.
"There is a possibility that the 39th and/or 40th President of the United States will be assassinated. If such an event occurs it is an indication that a Third War is in the embryonic stage of development, before the mid-1980’s."
Not successfully assassinated anyway. There sure wasn't WWIII.
"Foreign and deadly insects will begin to enter the United States before the late 1970’s. This is sign that other countries who were originally U.S. allies will soon become deceptive enemies."
I can't think of any countries who became enemies over the "killer bees" that never showed up.
"Before the year 1986 the U.S. Government will nationally admit that they have recovered and posses a number of alien space craft and beings for scientific study."
What?!
"the possible sinking of some Pacific Islands, and the possible sinking of Puerto Rico, the Bahamas and Japan before the late-1990’s"
?!
"A very large star or comet will almost collide with the Earth sometime during the late 1990’s."
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"From the years 1988 to 1998, then to 2008 earthquake activity may possibly increase yearly, thereby causing destruction of the Los Angeles-Bakersfield area, the San Francisco region, Denver, New York City, and Seattle."
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"A surprise attack of missiles might be made against the United States on the eastern seaboard, by a smaller country. As a consequence the United States will enter into a Third World War, which might turn into a intercontinental nuclear holocaust. China might become our strongest ally, while Russia will abstain from becoming involved. Shortly after the year 2002 there will be a coalition formed between the world’s superpowers with Russia serving as the mediator, and potentially emerging as the planetary leader"
So that's two world wars he falsely predicted.
Then he gives some fairly good advice, basically be better to each other, less selfish, etc. Followed by this amazing bit:
"What can people do to prepare for the potential purification?....As for the Native American people, our Elders advise: We are the original caretakers of this land. Bring back your sacred dances, rituals, and ceremonies. Perform the religious activities with cleanliness and according to traditional custom and law: No alcohol, no drugs, abstain from sex, avoid Moontime (menses power and energy), do not record or photograph these activities, and do not sell the religion for profit; otherwise it will not be spiritual."
And this:
"for the non-Indians, the Elder’s advise....another way concerned people can help prepare for the alleged Great Purification and potential predictions is to help the Native American people with their aboriginal and legal rights: Make your governments sanction and honor the American Indian Religious Freedom Act (PL9S-341), make your government, large corporations, exploiters, and tourists leave the sacred sites alone, and help support the traditional Native healers and ceremonial leaders"
I'd still say it's a mixed picture. If some of his questionable activity, like putting out a shingle online, resulted from mental health problems, that's something that makes him less worse than a Harley or a Brooke.
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I know bobby lake thom personally.Ive also read his books,heard him lecture.spent time with him and have done swets,and watched and participated in healings(indian doctoring) He is a well of knowledge.I came across this blog un intentionally and was really put out by the the way educated indian tares into this man.Are you an indian? are you a traditional?a spiritual man?have you personally grown up emmersed in whom ever your peoples culture and laguange is?There are no pure cultures left.If a man who wants to teach spirituallity he must be diverse and now and understand all customs and cultures.Do you know his father charlie thom is the last of the karuk speakers amongst his people and very well could be one of the last full blood karuks alive?How does one expect indian people to be completly traditional when most have no idea of there culture do to its bastardazation mixing of races and other indian peoples,not to mention the assimalation into christianity ect the genocide of there languages cultures and beliefs.People like bobby keep the ways and beliefs of indigenous peoples alive and allow others who have been a victim of the revisinost history of the indian people to learn and particpate in way that they can understand.If you leave the knowledge and wisdom that the creator has given to us for only a few who choose not to share with ALL THERE RELATIONS then that will also die and be forgotten just as the great ones
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Most of what you say is ad hominem atacks on me, not worth responding to. The arguments about who to share with and how have been debated many times, with Nuagers usually being the ones to repeat the arguments you make.
I said "a mixed picture." How is that something as ridiculous as you claiming I "tear into" him? Almost everything in my post were his own words. And he admits to a long history of mental illness, puts himself in the Nuage category, and makes a lot of very wrong predictions that are straight out of supermarket tabloids and End Times Christianity.
As I said before,, his mental health problems make him a mixed picture. He's worthy of pity, except for the way Nuage people use him and don't seem to care about his being vulnerable. To call him a well of knowledge seems ridiculous.
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Im not attacking you what so ever and please excuse me if you have mis interpeted by my intentions.Being that the man is a friend,I was compelled to defend him.To me knowing him personally I guess I have a diffrent approach to him and what he has to say.Im not saying that I agree or dis agree with the info. in his books or believe all that is written,but in any case,as a human being I find him to kind generous,and very interesting to speak with.I dont want any one to think Im trying to doubt you personally.As I said I am new to this and no idea of your credentials,and will all respect.Your opion is accepted gracfully.The mental illness thing is a bit over the top,you can criticize his work and his credentials,thats all fair game,but that comment came across to be hatefull, maliciuos.un called for and un neccissary,even if its mentioned in his book.You obviously are an educated man,and could have chosen better and more compassionate terms to describe your disgust.As for bobby there are those who will continue to like him and those who wont.Such is life.I would however like to continue participating in this forum and hope you dont find that offensive.
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Speaking just for myself, I'd be less offended if you read around the forum a bit more before you posted much. I thought your intro post was OK, since it expressed a desire to learn and some humility.
If you look around a little more, you'll find that almost every time someone is presented for research here, a fan of that person rushes over to defend him/her. They very often say that it's meeting the person that matters and not whether or not that person is exploitating native religions for profit. This site is, however, about people who exploit Native religions for profit; charisma is not an issue here. The defenders very often quote a Lakota phrase as if it applied universally to all humans in all situations--but NAFPS is all about explaining that native religions are not all the same and are not open to all who want to practice them.
Examples: the Karuk and Seneca very probably don't "do sweats," as this word has come, in popular usage, to mean the Lakota inipi. I doubt there's any such thing as a universal method of "Indian doctoring." Saying the old ways have been killed by assimilation and then saying further prostitution is the only thing that will save them makes no sense. (Frankly, if they were my traditions, and they had been reduced to a plastic dream catcher hanging on some moron's rear view mirror, I might be tempted to let them die. But I know I'd feel inclined to fight for them.) You are defending the revisionism you say you don't like. This revisionism hurts Native people and cultures every day, and it's perpetuated by everyday Americans who believe that Native Americans are pretty much all dead, that when they were alive they they all lived in tipis and "did sweats," and that the living ones who take offense at offensive crap like "do-your-own-sweat lodge" books are the real racists and need a lecture on their own religions.
In short, you come off as arrogant, self-contradictory (are his books part of his "well of wisdom" or not?), belligerent, and defensive. You insist you were misinterpreted. No, you weren't, not anymore than Natives need to be threatened with an afterlife in obscurity (why do you think they care whether you remember them?) if they dare argue with your interpretation of "mitakuye oyasin." If you really want to learn, do like Judge Judy says and put on your listening ears.
I'm giving you a hard time about some things others have done. I don't mean to say you've done all these things. I'm just saying that many of us here have seen and read it all before, and that if you really want to learn you have to drop your defenses and listen, really listen, to what others say.
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There is another thread on this guy
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=818.0
Bobby Lake-Thom
And here is an example of why people with peculiar ideas are more than nice people who are a bit eccentric. Unfortunately they pass on their ideas as real traditions and in this case it appears he has authorized other people to do the same.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=792.0
Reply #13
Lighteagle is a fully apprenticed Bear Medicine Shaman who was trained in the old traditional Native American ways for thirteen years. During the final stage of his apprenticeship he lived alone for nearly a year in a remote mountainous area in the primitive ways of his ancestors.
Following completion of his training, he was befriended by Senior Elder Medicine Grizzly Bear Bobby Lake Thom, who encouraged him to reach out further to others in his work, and advises Lighteagle if requested to do so.
If you do a search on Weylin Lighteagle this is one of several threads that come up on the guy. Weylin is right out there...
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I would like to thank you all for your input...I bid you all a fair well. and a good and peacefull journey
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Ok I am sorry that people get fooled that is why this board is so important.
I have to say YES, there are tribes who still have thire, culture, spirituality intacted.
The thought that people think we have no pure culture because of so many cultural fakes out there is wrong. We are still here and we are still people.
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This guy needs some looking into.
I don't like this but while on chemo, went to see this guy who 'took on my case'.
He is not from my area..and am far from home and no one around here but the wannabe's and traveling 'spiritual leaders' who charge for everything....so with referrals from others went.
Has a long history of this latter found out... tried to do perverted things, talked about money a lot.....I did leave.
He does have some gifts but money and power seems to be the main thing and messing with women, claiming his bodily fluids....can understand how ones spit...but semen? Sex? And the way he talked about it....the way he behaved....No way.
Charges for everything with the excuse that people don't bring firewood, moneys for that, his time, herbs,.....why not tell people to bring some things to help out if they don't know or don't care
If challenged he will make up stories about you to keep you out of his 'loop' to protect himself...keep his 'friends' and immediate family that don't know what's he's up to so his comfortable living circumstances now gotten isn't in jeopardy....poor newer wife.
If not so sick, I would have reported this a while back...and also a little paranoid as he does have some powers.
As one who truly knows told me, some people are like coins...have 2 sides.
Another who is involved in spiritual and domestic abuse said....that's why less people go to healers because of lack of trust with so many like him which affects culture and less who have gifts to commit, learn the langauge if they don't know it ...it is not an easy life.
So warnings about this person.....he may do some well for some...don't know....don't care.....but would never recommend him to anyone.
Still feel like a fool about it all.... :-[
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Merged the thread with an older one we have. Hopefully this may help you some.
Hello Fisher. I'm not doubting what you say, but would like more specifics, esp with as serious a charge as you are making about him abusing women. As you can see from the older posts and Thom's own words, he is a dubious character at best. But if people need to be warned he is not merely eccentric or deluded but possibly dangerous, that's a charge where we have to be careful about and back it up as best we can.
Could you be more specific about excactly what you claim he did? Was this to you or to others you know? Of course we would not ask you to reveal anything which would expose your identity or others. You may contact a mod in private by IM if you wish. In over a decade we have never broken anyone's trust.
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I will be fine with telling all the details....but feel it may be troublesome for me and family....there is the perverted behavior also that maybe too graphic ....maybe youngsters reading here.... so how do I contact you?
I am not making this up nor trying to make trouble.
It is something that needs to be told so others may be warned.
He did not have a site back then.
I tell the truth and if taken to court, he would have a hard time to impossible to prove me proving me wrong....lying.
This is a serious accusation but this is true.....
He stays low but has a following and continues to 'doctor'.
I also later found out that he has people who very much dislike him.
How do I contact you? Click under your screen name?
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Yes, click on his profile and on his profile page there is a link to send him a message.
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Thank you...will do that later.
How do I get my email off of board and profile? Have been trying.
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Thank you...will do that later.
How do I get my email off of board and profile? Have been trying.
Go to Profile, under the Modify Profile click on Account Related Settings.
Then you can click Hide Email Address From Public. :)
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Can't get it to work yet!
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I just looked, your email is hidden. :D
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??? Still see the envelope and then a box for sending email with address on it....well...let's see.
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Hi Fisherand welcome
I had that same thing happen, and you will be relieved to know you can see your own email when you are logged in, but for everyone else it just says hidden.
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Thank you all :)
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I knew Bobby for several years. Here are some facts. He has some healing abilities. He will doctor just about anyone who asks for his help. His non-native wife is a total sweatheart. What will it take for him to help you by doctoring or developing your native spirituality? MONEY, lots and lots of it. For a healing session, he expects and will tell you around 300-400 dolloars. If you offer less he will push you for more. Vision quest, 1200-1500 dollars, plus a pendleton blanket (300 more), plus gas and other items along the way. So, around 2k total. If the trip is cancelled for some reason, don't expect your money back either. If you want to spend time trying to learn, expect to continually bring money, wood and "gifts." If you stop feeding him money at any time he will bug you for more. Most of what he teaches you in person is the same stuff in his books. When women are around, yes he does make sexual comments that leave you feeling uneasy. As for other stuff involving women, I wont discuss that in open forum. Hope this helps.
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I received this account. They asked to remain anonymous since the wife is deeply embarassed and will not discuss this publicly.
We now have several accounts of his poor treatment of women, so my initial skepticism of the first account was not warranted.
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I met Robert Lake-Thom after reading his book, "Call of the Great Spirit." I contacted him via his website, nativehealer.net which now isn't active. I spent a great deal of time w/ him, and a great deal of money from 2006-2009.
I took my wife, who at the time was my girlfriend, to meet him for a doctoring session at his house. She had a problem with her upper back. First we had to "approach him with respect." Which is his term meaning to paying for his services. About $300. The doctoring took place in his living room in the evening. He turned off the lights and used candles for light. My wife wore a skirt and shirt. He made her take off her shirt for the ceremony. He did ask me if that was ok, which I agreed. She wore a bra during the whole time. I thought about stopping him but since I really believed in him and wanted my wife to be healed, I allowed it to go on. He only touched her on the back. However, she was very uncomfortable during the whole time. I do believe if I wasn't there it would have been more involved.
Robert Lake-Thom, he likes to be called Bobby, asked my wife to go with him to a woman's house who contacted him via his website for help. When they arrived, first thing he did was asked for a donation. He then counted the money if front of her to make sure it was enough for his doctoring. She had asked for help concerning her low back. He then had her take her shirt off, leave her bra on, and take off everything from the waist down. So, she was completely naked except for a bra. He then asked her why she shaved her pubic hair? He then had her lay on her back and spread her legs. He then spread her labias apart with his fingers to take a look inside in order to see what was wrong. He used his bare fingers even though he stated she may have had an infection. My wife was so appalled at that moment she left the room and doesn't know what else happened. He shared that information with me as well. My wife never went with him for any more doctoring sessions. I have talked to him a lot about medical problems. He knows nothing about infections or western medicine. He had no idea what to look for.
Robert Lake-Thom as of last year lives in Dixon, CA. His website had his address there so people could send "donations" to him. He required this before helping people online or "distance healing." I knew him from 2006-2009. I contacted him via his website that he listed in his book. He only spends time with a few followers. He doesn't associate with any well known healers. He likes to be the center of attention. He married a woman who has the house in Dixon. He moved in with her there and drained her of all her savings and equity on the house. He has a small sweatlodge in the back yard for ceremonies. He had a couple apprentices at the time. A lady in San Diego area who he taught the moon time ceremony which she now charges for women to attend.
He does have some healing ability. His ex-wife, Tela Donahue (formally Tela Lake), is a well known medicine woman. But she also has the same demands for those who ask for her help, in the way of donations.
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To EducatedIndian,
I don't know if you received my email in regards to details about my experience with Bobby Lake-Thom ???
My thoughts were that you may have blew me off..or just didn't get the email.
I am relieved to see that there are others starting to speak up.
Thanks for having this site and all you do. And in fairness.
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I received an account from Megan James, a former follower of Charlie Thom, about abuse done by Bobby Thom's father, Charlie Thom. It appears that the abuses Bobby Thom did, molesting women in the lodge, were part of a pattern first done by the father, Charlie. And the circle around Charlie Thom apparently knew and "dealt" with it themselves.
She says she is willing to come forward publicly, which is quite brave. What follows are two emails of hers. They have not been altered in any way besides corrected typos.
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In 1984 in sweat lodges conducted in Mt. Shasta , CA I had the unfortunate experience of being sexually molested by Charlie Thom three times in the lodge no less. Years later when he was conducting sweats on the land of Ugala Schwartz in upstate NY where I live I requested audience with group who'd been working for and with him for years to process and get closure on my experience but was denied the opportunity by Ugala.
While I believe great teachers can commit the errors pf any human I believe they should be held accountable. My experiences sweating with Charlie Thom were extraordinary and worthwhile prior to the sexual molestations which i found particularly heinous for being perpetrated in the lodge during ceremony with the group.
For what its worth I bring this to your attention.
Megan James
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Im certainly willing to step forward Mr. Carroll for what its worth. Its been, however about 28 years or more. Though there was a lodge full of people it was pitch black. The friends I told at the time chose to back Charlie Thom. One of those two friends is dead the other i have no idea how to locate. I am poor and sick in NY and as far as I know Charlie Thom and crew are in California. As I mentioned when he was here in NY some 20 years ago Ujala Shwartz and her crew blocked me from confronting me telling me "The community has already dealt with this" meaning there had been numerous other woman who'd had similar experiences to mine and they didnt want to be botherd with my attempts to get personal healing and closure...
Megan
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Bobby is often "Robert G. Lake" in public records. Born 1944. Past residences include California, Oregon, Spokane Washington.
Robert G. Lake
Robert G. Lake Thom
Neequitc G. Lake (on a marriage record)
Robert George Lake
Bobby Lake-Thom
Bobby Lake
Medicine Grizzlybear
Medicine Grizzly Bear
Bobby Thom-Lake
Medicine Grizzlybear Lake
Charlie Thom refers to Medicine Grizzlybear as "one of my former apprentices" in the book Native Healer: Initiation Into an Ancient Art (check in google books for preview, in Charlie Thom's foreword). So is it possible that Bobby Lake-Thom isn't actually Charlie Thom's son? Although I see them referred to as father & son elsewhere. Anyone know for certain?
Charlie Thom also writes in that forward that Medicine Grizzlybear was "trained and taught by sixteen different elderly medicine men/women from different tribes". The voices of the ancestors therefore speak through him.". This sounds to me like it is aimed at the Nuage marketplace, the marketplace that assumes that more = better and that all tribes are ultimately the same.
( Update: Bobby does refer to Charlie as "my father" http://funkman.org/animal/books/spiritsoftheearth.html (http://funkman.org/animal/books/spiritsoftheearth.html) )
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Bobby lLake-Thom,aka medicine grizzly bear, is currently being promoted as a wisdom keeper for one of Erick Gonzalez's spiritual business's called Earth Peoples United (tju),
here is Bobby Lakes web site "native healer"it is also listed on Erick Gonzalez's earth peoples united "wisdomkeeper"link
http://www.nativehealer.net/
http://www.earthpeoplesunited.org/wisdom_keepers/4-medicine-grizzly-bear
Erick Gonzalez's other "spiritual business" for profit is called Mayan Shamanism
http://www.mayanshamanism.com/
Erick Gonzalez also has his own forum dedicated to him, it is listed on the NAFPS fraud site
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=nku11ohcqoatnhgp0godj9a0u6&topic=3420.0
Bobby has participated in Erick's youth programs at Erick's "Deer Mountain"at Mt. Shasta in Cali. in August.
maybe it would be a good idea to notify local police and warn the public of him attending this event and any other upcoming events Bobby is listed to attend since he is being exposed as a possible sexual predator/offender
this upcoming tele marketed sweat lodge event being put on by erick gonzalez and his Earth Peoples United organization may be worth watching to see if Bobby Lake Thom is still involved and promoted as a speaker/wisdom keeper
file:///E:/Sweatlodge%20Teleclass%20Series%20with%20Tat%20Erick.htm
Earth Peoples United presents:
Grandmother's Hearth
The Mysteries of the Sweatlodge
A series of seven (7) 90 minute TeleTeachings with
Earth Wisdom Keeper Erick Gonzalez
Wednesday evenings 5:30-7 pm PST
April 17th - May 29th
All classes are given over the phone and also recorded as downloadable audio files.
The purification (sweat) lodge is found in most cultures around the world. Join us on a journey of understanding how the sacred mysteries of the lodge become our university, our hospital, and our church. This teleclass series is being shared to support our deeper connection with the sweatlodge ceremony as we search for balance and healing, and prepare ourselves to go home... into the spiritual womb of Mother Earth.
Class topics & dates: (All classes will be by phone on Wednesdays, will start at 5:30 pm PDT/ 6:30 MDT/ 7:30 pm CDT/ 8:30 pm EDT and last 60 min followed by 30 min of questions.)
Introduction: The Womb of Creation April 17th (4 Noj)
The Spirit Lodge: House of Wisdom April 24th (11 Kat)
Grandfather's Den: Fire Lodge May 1st (5 B'atz)
The House of the Bundles: The Altar May 8th (12 Tijax)
Grandma's Womb: The Sweatlodge May 15th (6 Kan)
Medicine Bundle: Sacred Tools May 22nd (13 E)
The Tapestry of Life: Weaving it All Together May 29th (7 Kawok)
Cost:
$144 Special Offer for paid members of Earth Peoples United
Regular class price is $175.
Calls will be also be recorded and sent as downloadable audio files to all class participants.
Click HERE to register as members of Earth Peoples United!
Click HERE to register at the normal price of $175.
For more information, contact HeddiL@gmail.com or call 530.459.3471
~
This Teleclass series will be followed by an in-person sweatlodge building retreat at Deer Mountain (north of Mt Shasta) from
May 31st-June 7th. Stay tuned for details!
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I feel so sorry for the people who have no center to look to these people for help,
so many are being fooled and give their money to these people for help, I am thankful for this site everyday
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I feel so sorry for the people who have no center to look to these people for help,
so many are being fooled and give their money to these people for help, I am thankful for this site everyday
I have read here the bad experiences women have had. Being a woman, I totally understand. Yes, all are very brave to speak about it.
I did not have this experience myself with Bobby Lake-Thom. I did not ever meet in person with him. I only was in contact via e-mail. He did talk about women's moon time- I did not ask about this. But given my age, maybe he assumed this would be helpful. (I stopped having moon cycles very early in life). But, other than that I had an uplifting and positive experience.
My Father whose name was Bobby, had just died when I first contacted him. I was also having much problems from my Mother and I was hurting inside. I had some bird incidents that happened at that same time, as well as some ghost or spirit problems in my home. I asked Bobby Lake-Thom for his guidance, wisdom in helping me understand about the birds, the ghost or spirits, my Mother and my Father's death.
I cannot say enough good things about Bobby Lake-Thom in my personal experience via e-mail with him. He explained a lot to me and was very helpful. He was very kind, giving and actually fatherly towards me. He helped me find peace and restored my inner self. He worked with me a lot and he gave of himself that he did not have to. He really reached out to me and if it was not for him, I would not have been o.k. He was there for me. I have such deep respect for him and what he did for me. To this day, I still regularly use the wisdoms that he taught me.
I have read about the money issues. This man has a heart and cares about people. He never once asked me for money. On my own, I had told him I had little money at the time and I felt bad that I did not have anything to offer him for his help. He did not have to help me and he did so to great lengths.
I feel very fortunate to have been helped by Bobby Thom-Lake. I am sorry for the other women, in your experiences. I hope you heal from this.
There is goodness inside and this man has a lot to give to the world and I believe good will come out of this. Sometimes being cleansed by the fire of truthfulness is needed.
About the new age aspect: I understand tradition is important. As the world changes, this creates new energies and I believe he sense these things. Our creator gives different gifts, some of visions, and I was given a gift of perception.
Much of what I read in Bobby Thom-Lake's predictions has come true but it was later on "in time".
What I think on, is when there is the possibility of war, such as his prediction of WWIII; there are a lot of variables and total destruction very well could have happened and still can, if we as people do not make good choices. It is a miracle, that WWWIII has not yet happened. Currently, we read about things going on in other countries and even here in America, such as the disclosure of certain people's e-mails and phone calls being recorded; and American money and planes and weaponry being given to other warring countries. Who knows when one country or another might decide to go to war and then this could lead to WWWIII. I hope not. I hope this never happens. This is volatile times and all countries are walking carefully, to prevent a new war. Much of what he predicted then, is beginning to come true "now". Animals behaviors and the weather has changed now. We just had a meteorite just miss the Earth this year- it was very close.
As a whole Nation, when one hurts- we all hurt.
When I last lived in Niagara Falls, NY, my friend Michael who was part of Pow Wow TV in Brooklyn, NY and then buried in his homeland on the Lakota burial ground in the Dakota, once told me something that I will never forget, "Words. Words are energy that go out into the Universe. Be careful of words, because words energy can cause both good and harm". I miss him. I really do. But, his words seem to apply now.
Peace to all,
Jenifer Bice (Bias), Oakdale, CA
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Jenifer,
Having an email relationship with someone is vastly different than an in person one. So while you had a good experience, you never were alone with him, never were in ceremony, and so don't know what that would be like. I am glad your experience was positive, but that does not negate anything the others have said.
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When I first heard about Robert's claiming Charlie as his father it went like this: "Hey did you hear that Bobby Lake married Charlie Thom?" It was pretty funny at the time. Well - Bobby thought his credibility quotient would go up if he associated with Charlie. Ironically back home on the River (the Klamath) Charlie has little credibility. When it comes to traditional matters the Yuroks and Karuks and Hupa are very strict - the traditional people there know that Charles does not have the "power" to teach or mentor traditional religious matters or any sort of 'medicine." No offense to Mr. Thom- that's just the way it is.
Bobby hails from back east - New York State I believe. Part of his family is Seneca and I understand there are some Cherokees in the wood pile too. He studied at Cal State Hayward in California's first "Native American Studies" program. One of his classmates I know told me that Bobby showed up to his class dressed in a business suit - very strange bird that one. Armed with a Bachelors degree in Anthropology he made his way to a cushy job at Humboldt State. You have to remember that in the seventies with so many colleges offering NAS courses there was a big shortage of Native Americans with proper academic credentials - so an Indian could get hired as a lecturer with a BA. By the late 70 Humboldt State told the NAS faculty (Jack Forbes and Bobby Lake) that they had to get MA degrees so they both enrolled in an academically suspect MA program run in Marin County - which consisted of monthly seminars on Jungian psychology. Pretty bogus I think - I once tried to discuss Jung's major writings (The Bollingin Series) with Jack Norton - but he had never heard of read Jung's works.
Then Bobby got in trouble at the college. Some female students filed a sexual harassment complaint against him and he lost his job. These students also were members of a group that were trying to help Calvin Rube stop the construction of a major logging road which ran from Gasquet to Orleans (the GO road). As an Indian Doctor and ceremonial headman Calvin was as authentic as they come. It was Bobby who convinced Calvin to come down to speak to students about the road. Bobby had been spending a lot of time up at the Rube ranch with Calvin. But later Bobby began to claim that Calvin was "training" him to be a Doctor. This really made Calvin angry - as Calvin once told me he did not have the proper "power" to train. Anyway after the GO road lecture an entourage of students began hanging out at the Rube Ranch - allegedly "helping" but realistically participating in cultural tourism. In the community at least some folks referred to them as "flies." What happened was that Calvin was so angry at Bobby that the students set out to undue Bobby. I visited Bobby in his office just after the sexual harassment charges surface and offered to intervene on his behalf - I was on good terms with Calvin and I knew many of the students who were behind this. But Bobby declined - asking me to stay out of it. It cost him his job.
After that his career was in shambles. I think he got a teaching position in Spokane but it looks to me like he decided to jump on the commodification of Native culture for his livelihood.
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http://nativehealer.net/Healer2005/about.html
About Medicine Grizzly Bear
A Traditional Native Healer and Indian Doctor
Medicine Grizzly Bear Medicine Grizzly Bear,also known as Bobby Lake-Thom is a traditional Native Healer from northwestern California. He is half Karuk, part Seneca, Cherokee, and (part Anglo) and is documented and recognized on the BIA records. He was taught and trained by numerous Native medicine men/women, Native ceremonial leaders, and Tribal Religious leaders.
Some of his teachers included Beeman Logan, Rolling Thunder, Mad Bear Anderson, Martin Highbear, Charlie Red Hawk Thom, Calvin Rube, Bonita Masten, Yurok Holyman Dewey George, Florence Jones (and numerous other medicine men/women from different tribes). His apprenticeship spanned two decades and then he was culturally and spiritually tested, evaluated, recognized, and confirmed as an Indian doctor or Native Healer on Doctor Rock, Chimney Rock, Trinadad Head, California; Seneca Mountain/Thunder Rock, in New York, and finally, on Mt. Shasta, California. (For a better understanding of the significance, role, function, and status of “Bear Doctors” or “Bear Medicine Men” refer to the Shaman's Drum article (Winter, 1993) “Digging for Medicine: Bears in Native American Healing Traditions” by David Rockwell. If you want a better understanding about "Indian Doctors and Shamans", Refer to the works of Alfred Kroeber (1928, 1942, 1976), Williard Park (1946), Joan Halifax (1978) and the research of other anthropologists.)
Bobby has conducted hundreds of ceremonies and lectures. He has been successfully doctoring Native people and non-Indian people for over twenty years. According to Indian custom and law he does not charge a fee for his doctoring and ceremonies, but according to the “law of reciprocity” donations are usually offered in lieu of a fee for his healing work, spiritual counseling, and ceremonies..
He is the author of Native Healer (Quest Books, 1992) Spirits of the Earth (Plume/Penguin, 1998) and Call of the Great Spirit (Bear & Company, 2001). His numerous literary works have appeared in The Indian Historian, White Cloud Mental Health, The Shaman's Drum, Teacher's Magazine, Educator’s Digest, The Quest/Theosophical Society Magazine, Akwasasne Notes and Akewekon Literary Journal, Herbs Magazine; Humboldt Journal of Social Relations, and numerous other
scholarly journals and magazines.
He was a professor of Native American Studies for over 20 years teaching at Humboldt State University, Gonzaga University, and Eastern Montana College. He has served as a consultant for Indian reservation programs, tribes, organizations, and federal/state agencies for over twenty five years in the areas of Indian health, education, social services, natural resources, religion, BIA 638 Programs and contracts, and realated grant writing and development.
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I thought we had a post on this person but could not find it
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I found it . Will try to merge threads.
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There is another thread about Bobby Lake-Thom (Robert Lake-Thom) active from 2007:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1372.0
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I thought we had a post on this person but could not find it
I found it . Will try to merge threads.
As noted a couple of times before, there still is another thread about Bobby (Robert) Lake-Thom:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=818.0
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There is another thread about Bobby Lake-Thom (Robert Lake-Thom) active from 2007:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1372.0
For the record: The above thread has just been merged with this one, so everything is now here:
As noted a couple of times before, there still is another thread about Bobby (Robert) Lake-Thom:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=818.0
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Seems he passed away last year. I haven’t found exact details, but notes like these (my boldings):
https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Bobby-Lake-Thom/410052776
Bobby Lake-Thom (Medicine Grizzly Bear) was a traditional native healer and spiritual teacher trained by 16 medicine men and women from different tribes. He lectured, conducted workshops, and doctored hundreds of people from all walks of life. He also served as Professor for Native American Studies at Humbolt State University and as an Indian affairs specialist for numerous Indian tribes and organizations in the United States. He lived in California.
https://www.gowildinstitute.org/category/bobby_lake_thom/
Apr 13, 2020
My Teacher Bobby Lake-Thom (A.K.A Medicine Grizzly Bear) died this year. He was one of the last great Medicine Men in North America.
https://www.gowildinstitute.org/the-origin-of-human-sickness-and-medicine/
Apr 13, 2020 | Bobby Lake-Thom, Earth Wisdom, Ethnobotany, Herbal Wisdom, Uncategorized | 2 comments
My Teacher Bobby Lake-Thom (A.K.A Medicine Grizzly Bear) died this year. He was one of the last great Medicine Men in North America. He loved the old stories and published a collection of them. It feels appropriate to share one of his favorites: The Origin of Human Sickness and Medicine. This story was recorded as told to Bobby by Cherokee Medicine Man, Rolling Thunder, in 1978.
The "Cherokee Medicine Man", fraud Rolling Thunder, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Thunder_(person) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Thunder_(person))) is now being widely discussed in this thread:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5553.0 [Robert Russell Cayc Jones AKA Sidian Jones AKA Morning Star]