Author Topic: Who ISN'T a fraud?  (Read 24508 times)

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Who's way?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 06:29:41 pm »
Wow!

How deep is your understanding on what 'life' is?

First of all a hint: please don't come stumbling in with insolent remarks towards respected members of this community. Earthw also is a respected member in the community she lives in every day. Plus don't come in here placing the label 'racist' on to respected persons. With probably very few exceptions, all of us know what racism is and does - and since most of the board members happen to be ndn, they will have seen racism from the receiving end.

But perhaps we can give you a lesson on why the accusation of 'reverse racism' is nothing but pure racism?

We come from a variety of cultures here, and we respect each other's cultures and beliefs.

As a further hint: most of us don't like kicking behinds all that much, but if the worst comes to the worst, you'd be amazed how good we are at it if need be.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 06:31:42 pm »
But you dont have a 'my way of life' that is other than 'our' way without 'racist' ideology.

Huh?  Indigenous people own their cultures. The idea that anyone, of any cultural background, can take the cultural property of others is not a traditional perspective. It's a modern, consumerist one.

Earth knows her culture, and the boundaries that have had to be set to keep offensive people from trivializing and exploiting their ways. With respect, I humbly ask you to show some respect here.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 06:52:49 pm »
Thank u for standing up for me ;D but as a Native woman who is not a mutt
and live on my land among my people i stand up for MY WAYS.
I have the right to say NO to outsiders.
In Spirit

Offline earthw7

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 07:20:07 pm »
Bis sound like one of those           ???
In Spirit

Offline Bishadi

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 07:41:44 pm »
Thank u for standing up for me ;D but as a Native woman who is not a mutt
and live on my land among my people i stand up for MY WAYS.
I have the right to say NO to outsiders.

one of those?????



If existence only operates one way, is the math the name to know?  To me, existence is defining itself and 'we' as the conscious species are doing it.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 08:22:21 pm »
My way is Lakota Dakota
In Spirit

Offline earthw7

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 08:23:20 pm »
But you dont have a 'my way of life' that is other than 'our' way without 'racist' ideology.

Huh?  Indigenous people own their cultures. The idea that anyone, of any cultural background, can take the cultural property of others is not a traditional perspective. It's a modern, consumerist one.

Earth knows her culture, and the boundaries that have had to be set to keep offensive people from trivializing and exploiting their ways. With respect, I humbly ask you to show some respect here.
cross purpose there. 

We are brothers from earth and sharing toys is just good manners.

I like the internet. Can you show me which tribe created this culture?

ps...  the keepers best take note of the aspect of empathy.  From what i understand there are some cool bro's that are to teach the idiots like me how to survive with mom.  I've got the knowledge to understand the "bic lighter" but your culture is not yours, as the internet and knowledge of the fire is not mine!

'we' teach our children and our brothers (and sisters).  A way to know that the times are turning is that the children now teaching the elders.

Remember, each day we learn.  If the knowledge enables, do the right.

So are you native
In Spirit

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 09:55:53 pm »
Nope, he's a white guy. He has also been banned.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who's way?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 11:59:07 pm »


First of all a hint: please don't come stumbling in with insolent remarks towards respected members of this community. Earthw also is a respected member in the community she lives in every day. Plus don't come in here placing the label 'racist' on to respected persons.
[/quote]

Aren't we all respected persons? Shouldn't we all be spoken to with care and respect? 

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 12:05:35 am »
if you in anyway claim to use my way of life (Native-Indian) as a way to make money you are in the wrong.
* If you charge people to come to a ceremony you are wrong.
* If you charge for workshop on ceremonies
* If you claim to be Native but you are not that is a lie as many of those you see on this site.

What is wrong with your own life?


I AGREE! It would be beautiful if we lived in a world without using money as our energy exchange for things. And I think spiritual practice and relationship is a personal thing and not a profession.

What is wrong with white American life? Are you really asking this question? Almost everything is wrong with it. This is why people with the great misfortune of being born into it so often seek wiser cultures to learn from. Duh.  If I was born into "your" way of life, I would want to share it with people who are sincerely looking to learn and change.

As for taking it out into the world, that seems like a natural thing to do to try and change a sick dominant culture and help people to think a different way from mainstream American culture. Not everyone is driven by greed and power.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 12:09:37 am »
I guess I dont consider myself a fraud because I was born, enrolled in my tribe and live among my people,
I know my culture, history, traditions, spirituality and way of life. I dont need to steal from another culture to define who i am
I am born me, i dont do ceremonies and i dont share my way of life with general people.
I get upset when i see people telling stories that are untrue about my people, making up my culture, and
doing damage to those people who have no center or self identifty

Thank you for your peaceful response. I feel that way, too about cultural appropriation. It is sad how much damage has been done, but there are lots of good hearted people, too. Not everyone is looking to exploit.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 12:12:15 am »
Quote
It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.


Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?

That is not what I said at all. I said what it FEELS like to me to read so many untrue things about people I know personally here who are doing good things for people. And that is not an insult, just the way I am experiencing what I'm reading. If you want to feel insulted by my feelings that is your perception, but not my intention.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 12:18:54 am »
Tzununa, speaking as a white person who's made an ass of herself any number of ways in the past, I'd suggest you apologize... and then lurk more before you presume to lecture people on who and who can't use their traditions.

We white people spent a lot of time and energy destroying our own traditions (whatever they were) and substituting Christianity. We then imposed our ways on everyone else. Nice, giving, caring people may want to or choose to help whitefolks "recreate community and heal [our] lost sense of tribe," but it's not their work, it's ours, and they are under no obligation to assist. In the case of Native Americans, they have many, many more important things to worry about than the "lost sense" of white people...and that's our doing, too.

Nor is it their, or anyone else's job, to put your "heart at ease." That's for you to do. When your heart hurts because you've discovered things you believe are merely pretty lies, begging to hear more pretty lies from the people those lies have harmed the most is not going to ease it.

My question was not intended to be a lecture, but a sincere inquiry for the sake of peace and understanding. I was hoping that someone could put my heart at ease to let me know that this forum is actually seeking peace and understanding more than anything else, but I see that it is just like all of life, a mix of the good and the bad. There seem to be people doing that and people who just like to argue. But it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 12:31:30 am »
Quote
It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.


Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?

Not only is it insulting Debbie, it's RACIST! I'm so sick and tired of these white whiners coming here sniveling and boo hooing about how mean and selfish Indians are. As if we owe this tzununa person anything. @ tzununa, you are the epitome of the racist oppressor. It is not up to us to educate your ignorant white ass. You and people like you are the reason we have to a forum like this.

I hope this tzununa person reads this and really reflects on her words and the hurt she has caused.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana

Wow!!! You just called me a racist oppressor.  ????????????????????

Who is causing hurt here? There are ACTUAL racist oppressors in the world. There are people who discriminate and kill others for their race.

I am so sorry for whatever pain you have felt in your life because of racism. You don't know me and I don't know you from a few typed words on the internet so be very careful with such dangerous accusations before you take the time to have a peaceful discussion with someone.

I have devoted my life to healing racial conflict and know first hand what it is to live with racism on a daily basis. I married my husband, a North African man just before 9/11 and saw what racism did to him to me and to our family, every day of our lives. DON'T TELL ME WHO I AM from a fucking internet post.

Your pain requires responsibility. Just because I have been raped, I don't get to walk up to every man on the street and rip him a new one. You don't get to generalize either. Did you read the plea I was making for peace? Take off your racism-colored glasses, sister, and SEE ME and how I actually am trying to Love you here. In whatever way I am mistaken or ignorant of what it is like for other people, my inquiry was made in love and you just shit all over it.

Offline Tzununa

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Re: Who ISN'T a fraud?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2013, 12:43:58 am »
Tzununa/LM, if you actually felt respect for Native people and communities, you would have taken the time to get a sense of how this board functions. You would have read the pinned threads that already answer your questions and not expected Native people to do 101 work you should have done for yourself. And you would have introduced yourself in the proper section, instead of posting in News & Announcements.

Moving this to "etc"

Stealing from Natives doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a worse person.

Non-Natives exploiting Native ways aren't helping other non-Natives, they are implicating them - you - in cultural genocide. That is not spiritual, or helpful, or peaceful , or good.

You wrote: " recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people."

That is delusional. Ceremony-stealing, ceremony-selling, being a pretendian is not supporting Indigenous people. It is the opposite.

Thank you Kathryn. You are right, I didn't read this entire forum, and I suspect that would take a really long time. I was writing from the impression I got from the few things I did read, which inspired concern and confusion. Is it really a requirement to read everything before my question is valid?

What do you think would be a better way for people of all races to support the indigenous people while trying to change the general way they interact with the earth and each other? If young people who are not native but are so condemned for any efforts they make to live a ceremonial life want to have a ceremony, will they still be criticized for doing it wrong? For "stealing" someone else's culture? The young people I see of all races who go to ceremonies don't want to be Indians, but want to live in a beautiful way and honor life and connect with spirit via ceremony. Since they have no culture to instruct them, and the cultures who have something to teach seem so closed, what do you think the 19 year old Russian kid living in the city with no relatives to teach him, and is asking for this should do? Move to Russia and try to discover an ancestry that has been dead for thousands of years?