NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Unegv Waya on January 08, 2010, 06:45:11 pm
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First, thank you to the administrators for accepting my request to join this board.
I wish to make it clear that though I have some documented linage to the Cherokee, I am not an enrolled member of the nation. It seems my ancestors were among those who did not reply to the final roles though a couple of them do appear on the early rolls.
I have spent considerable time with native peoples from various NA nations including, needless to say, the Cherokee and the Creek. My mother was born Mary Frances Gibson and she was one quarter native and 3 quarters white. My maternal grandmother was 1/2 Cherokee by blood quantum and my maternal grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee and the rest was Scots/Irish. It was an Elder with the Echota of Alabama who told me what rolls to look at to find my great uncle and great aunt.
FWIW, I've learned to speak a bit of Tsalagi and, at the approval of members of both the Eastern and Western bands, have facilitated classes at our public library on the Cherokee language. I've also filled in as the A.D. at a few dozen powwows in central Florida and from those experiences met many great whannabe and plastic shamans. Involving Cherokee language and culture, I've recorded some songs, written in Tsalagi and, along with a Cherokee man from the Eastern band, have performed these for the general public and elders of both bands.
That's about all there is except to say that I am pleased to find this site and am thrilled that you are exposing the frauds. If you want to know anything more about me, just ask.
donadagohvi nvwatohiyadv
Unegv Waya
p.s. My 1st name is Mike so feel free to address me as such.
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FWIW, I've learned to speak a bit of Tsalagi and, at the approval of members of both the Eastern and Western bands, have facilitated classes at our public library on the Cherokee language.
Mike, What do you mean by "a bit" Are you fluent in Cherokee? And if so, where did you learn the Cherokee language? Did you grow up speaking it? Was your family speakers of the language?
When you say approval, are you saying that individual enrolled members of the Cherokee Nation and Eastern Band approve of your teaching these classes?
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FWIW, I've learned to speak a bit of Tsalagi and, at the approval of members of both the Eastern and Western bands, have facilitated classes at our public library on the Cherokee language.
Mike, What do you mean by "a bit" Are you fluent in Cherokee? And if so, where did you learn the Cherokee language? Did you grow up speaking it? Was your family speakers of the language?
When you say approval, are you saying that individual enrolled members of the Cherokee Nation and Eastern Band approve of your teaching these classes?
Hi there, Black Wolf,
I do not consider myself as being fluent because I do not know enough of the words and phrases to hold a running conversation in Tsalagi. I can up to a point but I still can get lost and have to refer to a dictionary.
I first started learning Tsalagi from some Cherokee I knew through the work I was doing. It started out simple with my picking up a few words like: osiyo, dohitsu, dohiquu, equa, usti, utsati, hilvsgi, etc.. I guess since I could pick up those words a few of my co-workers taught me a bit more about the language. Over the years I got to the point where I could pretty much follow a conversation in Tsalagi. As they taught me I would say usti goliga tsalagi - I understand a little Cherokee.
Then some years passed and I was not around anyone who spoke the language so, save for a few words and phrases, I forgot a lot of it due to simple lack of using it.
It was six years ago when I found out a culture center up near Stark, Florida offered classes in the language and I started attending them. After the first set of sessions the person facilitating the class was going to move and the center asked me to take it over because I already knew some of the language and I had experience as an instructor at one time. I did so until they found someone who was fluent.
A year later I was asked to start a class here in Citrus county. That was when I spoke with the few members of either band that I ran across on occasion if my doing so would be considered and insult to the Cherokee or any other native peoples since I was not an enrolled member of any tribe. They all told me that what I speak of Tsalagi I speak well enough and that there should be no concerns about my giving some basic lessons as long as I do not misrepresent who I am. I considered that being them expressing their approval about my facilitating the class.
If I missed anything you were asking please let me know.
donadagohvi
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I do not consider myself as being fluent because I do not know enough of the words and phrases to hold a running conversation in Tsalagi. I can up to a point but I still can get lost and have to refer to a dictionary.
This tells me right there you shouldn't be teaching it. Theres also a lot of cultural issues and protocols in teaching a language that you wouldn't know. If you say that you can follow a conversation in Cherokee. Then I seriously doubt you just picked it up. Language,especially the Cherokee languge, isn't something you can just pick up from buddies at work. Nor could you become fluent taken online or self study classes. It just isn't possible. I'm sure a lot of Indians on this site would say the same thing. You'd pretty much have to live with a fluent speaker and actually use it on a daily basis. And even in this case, fluency is even difficult to achieve for adult learners. North Eastern University in Oklahoma, and Western Carolina University has 4 year degree programs in the Cherokee language. I know people in these programs and even they will tell you the difficulty it takes to become fluent.
And if you just know some basic words and phrases, then you shouldt be teaching it. Especially to the public. I also know some basic Cherokee words and phrases. I've taken some online classes offered by the Cherokee Nation over the years, and I have also picked up some words and expressions from fluent speakers when I can over the years. I had a family member who passed on that could understand it because it was spoken to them as a child. But because I picked up a little over the years, and have taken some online classes, I wouldnt even begin to think that I have the right or knowledge to teach it.
And if your in Florida, I would question who your teaching Cherokee to? Are you teaching the languge to a group of white people? Or are you teachng the languge to Cheroekes? I would assume its the former. I don't think you should even be teaching the basics. Also just because a few enrolled members of the Eastern Band and Cherokee Nation told you they didn't have any concerns doesn't really mean much.
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I do understand your concerns and respect your POV on this, Black Wolf. The classes I facilitate are listed as being basic, introductory classes only. Those who wish to continue their study of it are referenced to the language classes and materials listed on the official CN's websites.. I never represent the classes as containing the substance that would be required for one to learn the language to the point of being fluent. If I were to ever describe the classes as anything other than basic and introductory in nature then I would be both unqualified and misrepresenting what those in attendance should expect.
I know several Cherokee who don't speak a word of Tsalagi. A couple of them moved down here to Florida and attend the classes on occasion. There are also white and mixed bloods who attend. Every one of them know that I am not fluent and can only show them what I know which includes basic vocabulary for most common day items and how to form questions and make statements involving who, what where, when, why and how. One of my primary resources is the language center in Talequah. They know what I am doing in my classes and have said they have no problem with it as long as I keep it basic and refer those interested in learning more to their resource centers and people. I do exactly that and no more.
FWIW, it wasn't just picking up a few words from some buddies at work. It sort of started that way but before long a couple of them had me come to their homes where they taught me quite a bit about the language and its protocols. For about 2 years after that I was fortunate enough to be around them on a daily basis and while in their homes would only speak Tsalagi. No doubt I made some errors that would usually result in everyone having a good belly laugh but for that time I was around those who spoke the language fluently. After being away from it for over a decade a lot of it seems to escaped my memory thus the reason I started attending the classes offered.
I wholehearted agree with you that if an official Cherokee language class were presented, one that would present the language and its protocols in full along with the cultural explanations for some of those protocols and expressions, then the presenter would have to be 100% fluent in the language and either be an enrolled member of the nation or have the full approval of the current council.
If you want to ask some people in the nation about me feel free to contact Rick Bird (Bird Chopper Family Drum) or Earl Yona Taylor (All Nations Warrior Drum) both are from the eastern band. Tell them my 1st name and let them know I'm the other half of the Duct Tape Song duet. They'll know who are talking about then.
nvwatohiyadv
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One of my primary resources is the language center in Talequah. They know what I am doing in my classes and have said they have no problem with it as long as I keep it basic and refer those interested in learning more to their resource centers and people.
Are you talking about the Cherokee Nation Cultural Resource Center? Who did you talk to there? Anna Huckaby? Gloria Sly? I seriously doubt they or others there would approve of a non Cherokee citizen, UKB member or EB member teaching “even basic” Cherokee in a public institution or forum ( a public library ). Or at the very least someone who has been through the Cherokee degree program at North Eastern.
I know several Cherokee who don't speak a word of Tsalagi. A couple of them moved down here to Florida and attend the classes on occasion. There are also white and mixed bloods who attend.
Where were these Cherokees from? You might have a few real Cherokees ( I don’t know), but it sounds more like your teaching Wannabees.
If you want to ask some people in the nation about me feel free to contact Rick Bird (Bird Chopper Drum) or Earl Yona Taylor (All Nations Warrior Drum) both are from the eastern band. Tell them my 1st name and let them know I'm the other half of the Duct Tape Song duet. They'll know who are talking about then.
Rick Bird from the Bird Chopper Drum and Yona Taylor from his drum are paid performers on the Powwow Trail in Florida and the South East. Probably over half the powwows they do are Wannabee Powwows. Their job is to make money, smile and sometimes perform for Wannabees and maybe even tell them what they want to hear. Nothing against them drumming and giving people basic info about Cherokee culture, which can be a good thing, just making a point, that their audiance is in many cases , actually most cases cases, non Cherokees, and non Indians. I’d like to know what the consensus is from Cherokee communities in NC on what your doing. But, I’m certain a lot of people from Traditional communities in Oklahoma would be against what your doing.
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Some of those I refer to are from Cherokee, NC and some are from Talequah and surrounding communities. I don't ask to see someone's blue card so if they are not enrolled members then they lied to me and to others.
Yes, Rick and Earl do perform at all sorts of powwows and gatherings and some of them are not exactly traditional. As for either of them telling people what they want to hear - I strongly disagree as I have heard what they have had to say to those who come to them with wannabe BS. They may perform at some gatherings that are not quite right but when someone does or says anything disrespectful they set that person straight. I know this first hand.
Would you say the same about Joanne Shenandoa? She has attended and performed at some of the very same gatherings. I've never seen anything she's done that would encourage any sort of wannabe anything. Or have I missed something?
Last time I was in communication with the cultural resource center was about a year ago. Since then I have changed PCs so this one does not have my old contact list on it. Once I hook up the external drive I used to back up my old data I'll tell you with whom I communicated. We never spoke over the phone - it was all via email. I seem to recall it was a male with whom I exchanged emails.
In those emails I outlined what I was presenting, what materials were being used and where the classes were conducted. I made it clear that those in attendance know that this is not an official class from the nation and that nothing involving culture or ceremony or anything like that is to be presented. So, when I get my old contact list up and going I'll write them again and post their reply right here, if you wish.
Perhaps some of your concerns stem from the simple fact that I am down here in Florida - wannabe capital of the U.S.A.. If you lived here, you'd likely be even more concerned as this place seems to have the strongest concentration of those who fit this site's purpose than anywhere else I've ever lived. I was here 10 years before I even let it be known to a few people I found I could trust that I had any native anything in my life.
nvwatohiyadv
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p.s. If you think I have these classes for $$ or the like know this - it is voluntary and I accept nothing for giving my time to this.
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Would you say the same about Joanne Shenandoa? She has attended and performed at some of the very same gatherings. I've never seen anything she's done that would encourage any sort of wannabe anything. Or have I missed something?
She's just a musical performer. She gets paid and she performs. I have no idea of how she interacts with people at Powwows. Whether it be with Indians or non Indians. The only reason I mentioned Ric Bird and Yona, is because you seem to be saying that they approve of your Cherokee language classes. The point I want to make is that they are both paid performers who deal with Wannabees on a regular basis.
That was when I spoke with the few members of either band that I ran across on occasion if my doing so would be considered and insult to the Cherokee or any other native peoples since I was not an enrolled member of any tribe. They all told me that what I speak of Tsalagi I speak well enough and that there should be no concerns about my giving some basic lessons as long as I do not misrepresent who I am. I considered that being them expressing their approval about my facilitating the class.
Just because they are both enrolled EB members doesn't mean they speak for the EB or Cherokee people as a whole. I still say most Cherokees in Oklahoma and probably NC wouldn't approve of a non enrolled member teaching Cherokee to a group of mostly Wannabees in a public institution. You say your a Cherokee and thats all well and good. But I question why someone would be teaching basic Cherokee to a group of mosly non Indians. Especially someone who admits that they themselves only know the basics. And yeah your right, Florida does seem to be full of Wannabees. Especially Wannabee Cherokees.
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In those emails I outlined what I was presenting, what materials were being used and where the classes were conducted. I made it clear that those in attendance know that this is not an official class from the nation and that nothing involving culture or ceremony or anything like that is to be presented. So, when I get my old contact list up and going I'll write them again and post their reply right here, if you wish.
Yes, I'd like to see that.
Perhaps some of your concerns stem from the simple fact that I am down here in Florida - wannabe capital of the U.S.A.. If you lived here, you'd likely be even more concerned as this place seems to have the strongest concentration of those who fit this site's purpose than anywhere else I've ever lived. I was here 10 years before I even let it be known to a few people I found I could trust that I had any native anything in my life.
Your probably right about it being the Wannabee capital of the USA. There's some major misrepresentation of Indians (mostly Cherokees) going on in Florida. You also have an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation running around Florida doing so called Moon Ceremonies, and giving workshops on Walking the Red Path and making salves and lineaments. He caters to the Wannabees and is active in the Wannabee powwows scene. He even gave himself the typical stereotypical Plains Indian sounding name thats not part of Cherokee culture. People in Oklahoma know about what he's doing. The only reason he hasn't been exposed on this site is because of relationships and the embarrassment it would cause his relations in Oklahoma.
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Black Wolf, I truly do understand what you are saying and why. In my heart I agree with you that too many have misrepresented too much in all of native culture. It is a sad thing, indeed.
You ask why I would want to facilitate such a class. I can assure you it is not for money or for ego or for any other such purpose. My reasons are deeply personal in part but also I was somewhat motivated by the fact that there were several people in the area, some native, some white and some mixed, who really wanted to have a group where they could get together to practice and learn a little bit of the language. There were places that would do that for them but they were also doing things like training in faux ceremony and also charge $$ to attend their language classes. I wanted to provide an alternate choice for them so that they were not exposed to the fakery but were given something of a language introduction with no agenda and no $$.
I know that you do not know me, Black Wolf, but I say here and before all creation that I have nothing but the most sincere respect and gratitude for native peoples in general and Cherokee in particular. It was Cherokee, and on a couple of other occasions Sioux, people who helped me in ways I can not begin to detail. Their open hearts and homes were something I will never forget.
I was never made any sort of blood anything nor was I ever adopted by some family or anything like that ever. I was, however, accepted and treated with both respect and kindness at times when I needed it most even though I didn't realize it. A few times I was accepted by some Dine' and Hopi. All of these were not wannabes or someone I came across in Florida or elsewhere, I was with these people on their respective reservations. I learned respect for who and what they are. So, if my facilitating one intro class in Tsalagi took the people who attend it away from those who would teach them other things that are wrong and dsirespectful to native peoples, I don't see where it is necessarily a bad thing.
All this being said, if the officials in Talequah ever ask me to cease the class, I will do so,
nvwatohiyadv
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We sort of cross posted. OMG, I know of whom you speak regarding the moon ceremonies. Please, what can you tell me about this?
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Just wanted to know are part of the United Cherokee nation of Florida? I do know You belong or belonged to a group or band, I could be wrong. This Yona means Chief, who is he Chief of? Thanks
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I'm not a member of any group or lodge, Flyaway. The only Cherokee band I know of that is legit here in Florida is not a band but a satellite community called Cherokees of Central Florida and their web address is: http://centralflorida.cherokee.org/
In the Overhill dialect I know yona means bear - not chief. In what dialect does yona mean chief?
nvwatohiyadv
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Just wanted to know are part of the United Cherokee nation of Florida? I do know You belong or belonged to a group or band, I could be wrong. This Yona means Chief, who is he Chief of? Thanks
Yona means bear.
Welcome to NAFPS, Mike.
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Wado, Bls926. hi tsalagis?
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I'm a Cherokee descendant, not enrolled.
Edit to add: I'm also a German, Scots-Irish, English descendant.
Families have been here for a very long time.
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Likewise, I'm not enrolled and there is definite Italian and Scots/Irish. My father was FBI - Full Blood Italian. My mother was a mix of native and Scots/Irish.
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Just wanted to know are part of the United Cherokee nation of Florida? I do know You belong or belonged to a group or band, I could be wrong. This Yona means Chief, who is he Chief of? Thanks
Flyaway, the Yona we're talking about is enrolled with the EB and tradtional. He's on a drum called the All Nations Warrior Drum and is sometimes Head Drum in some of the Florida powwows.
There are a few fakes in Florida who also go by the name Yona. Not to be confused with Yona from the EB. I think there's a guy in central Florida somewhere who claims to be a Cherokee story teller ( and wrote books) and calls himself Yona, and another guy in Georgia somewhere.
There's also a guy who calls himself Principle Chief of the United Cherokee Nation and has been around a few places in Florida. Not to be confused with the real "Cherokee Nation"
http://www.myspace.com/chief_stone_bear (http://www.myspace.com/chief_stone_bear)
As far as I know, Yona Taylor is the only real Cherokee who goes by Yona in Floirda and performs there. Although I could be wrong because Yona is somewhat common among Cherokees.
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I've come across quite a few story tellers in north and central Florida but haven't met one using the name Yona. There was one man that many called Stone Bear (no relation to the url you listed, Black Wolf) but that was because he sort of looked like a bear and worked with all sorts of precious and semi-precious stones. He never made any tribal claims like the one in AZ is doing.
There have been a couple of groups that sort of went underground after their leadership was exposed for what they are and who the are not.
One of them may be using the name Yona if they've come out of hiding.
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We sort of cross posted. OMG, I know of whom you speak regarding the moon ceremonies. Please, what can you tell me about this?
He's trying to replicate some of the Cherokee Moon Festivals such as the First New Moon Festival, the Green Corn Festival, and the Great New Moon Festival, etc. As far as I know, these festivals don’t take place in Florida. Some of these festivals are each held over a few days and aren't something that could just be done in a few hours. Some involve proper food preparation, the preparation of the ceremonial grounds, religious dances, etc. Money shouldn't be paid for these services either nor should they be advertised at Powwows and on the Internet.
There are still Cherokee traditional people that actually do still observe these festivals and some observed at some of the Ceremonial Grounds in Oklahoma. There are a few full blood traditional people who have already denounced the man that we are speaking of.
The Cherokee man in question that performs these so called “moon ceremonies” for one isn't a medicine man nor is he a traditionalist. Being fluent in the Cherokee language is one good sign of this, which he is not. And I don’t mean just knowing a few words and expressions, I mean was he fluent in the language growing up, and was he raised in Traditional ways and is he known at some of the Ceremonial Grounds in Oklahoma as a Medicine Man or Traditionalist.
He’s not. And even if he was a Traditionalist, it still wouldn’t be right what he’s doing. Ceremonial people don’t advertise their services on the internet. They don’t put maps on the internet showing where their so called Moon Ceremonies take place and how to get there. He’s done this.
He might be Cherokee, but in my book he’s no better then all the fakes and Plastic Medicine Men out there. Indians like him are part of the problem. He’s taken advantage of a lot of people who don’t know any better and he’s using his status as a Cherokee to legitimize himself and his so called “Moon Ceremonies”. He knows what he’s doing is wrong. There’s no doubt about it. He’s also disgraced his family name and is part of the reason why he hasn’t been publically denounced.
And speaking of Florida, he’s not the only Indian that makes money from catering to the Wannabees and selling out their heritage. A man from the Winnebago Tribe was out there a few years ago teaching people how to sweat and wrote a fairly accurate book that he was selling on the internet. There’s also a woman Sun Dancer from Pine Ridge who comes out to Florida from time to time to teach the Wannabees how to build a Sweat Lodge and Sweat in her “Sweat Lodge 101 Classes”.
In my book these people are no better then all the fakes. Probably even worse. Their all exploiters in my book. Anybody that sells out their heritage for a buck doesn’t deserve an ounce of respect.
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Just wanted to know are part of the United Cherokee nation of Florida? I do know You belong or belonged to a group or band, I could be wrong. This Yona means Chief, who is he Chief of? Thanks
Flyaway, the Yona we're talking about is enrolled with the EB and tradtional. He's on a drum called the All Nations Warrior Drum and is sometimes Head Drum in some of the Florida powwows.
There are a few fakes in Florida who also go by the name Yona. Not to be confused with Yona from the EB. I think there's a guy in central Florida somewhere who claims to be a Cherokee story teller ( and wrote books) and calls himself Yona, and another guy in Georgia somewhere.
There's also a guy who calls himself Principle Chief of the United Cherokee Nation and has been around a few places in Florida. Not to be confused with the real "Cherokee Nation"
http://www.myspace.com/chief_stone_bear (http://www.myspace.com/chief_stone_bear)
As far as I know, Yona Taylor is the only real Cherokee who goes by Yona in Floirda and performs there. Although I could be wrong because Yona is somewhat common among Cherokees.
yes I must admit that I was playing rabitt here. YONA is Bear and yes Yona Taylor travels all over and performs. Forgive me but I am an old Cherokee/chocktow Elise who likes to check things out.
I would also like to say to White Wolve that I love your music and you and Silver Wolf are excellent writers and musicians. I do pray I have not offened you.
As far as the fake tribes/bands/groups Cherokee of Florida there are many, as you know the task force of the CNO are working hard at exposing them. The Job is endless.
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Wado, Flyaway. I wasn't aware that anyone here had ever heard the music you mentioned. I won't go into that here as I think that would violate the terms and purpose of this board but wado none the less. And there's no need to apologize for being a rabbit as you put it. No offense was taken. I have done something similar on occasion. ;)
Thanks for the 411, Black Wolf. I think I know who you are speaking about. There are only 3 people down here whose name has come up involving a "moon ceremony" and only one of them is said to be from Oklahoma or an enrolled member.
I had some people ask me about it a few years ago. All I could tell them was that I had no knowledge of such a ceremony and that the only ones I knew to be real Cherokee festivals were the ones you have mentioned. So, I took a little time and looked into it.
FWIW, the man involved does not charge people to attend or participate in this moon ceremony. I know that doesn't justify anything and I do not mean to imply that it does in any sense but at least he doesn't collect $$ for it. So, what ever he gets from this it's not wealth in the monetary sense nor does it appear there is a large following or anything like that.
I come across him on occasion at some of the gatherings down here. To talk to him one would have the impression that he is genuine but then some who are not what they represent themselves to be will seem genuine initially. He doesn't do much to promote himself or what he does so, I have no idea what his reasons are for conducting these gatherings. I do know that the map you mentioned is old and that the place indicated is no longer used and hasn't been for a couple of years.
This is just sad. This is also in part why I was here for a decade before I ever popped my head up and indicated I had anything to do with anything native. The moment I did it didn't take long before people were asking me for ceremony or to join their lodge. Most of them could not understand why I would do neither. I about went back underground but then I came across a few real McCoys so I stayed above ground.
This is only the top of the iceberg, so to speak. Like I mentioned, if you have concerns about Florida just move down here and stay for a year. Your level of concern will double or triple.
nvwatohiyadv
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FWIW, the man involved does not charge people to attend or participate in this moon ceremony. I know that doesn't justify anything and I do not mean to imply that it does in any sense but at least he doesn't collect $$ for it. So, what ever he gets from this it's not wealth in the monetary sense nor does it appear there is a large following or anything like that.
I don't see on his website that he is charging money for the moon ceramonies. Your right. But he is selling tapes and videos on things such as hypnosis and guided imagery. He also does group workshops and Cherokee weddings. You might be right that he's not charging money for his moon ceramonies, but I'm going to look into it. I don't know his motives but its not a good thing what he's doing. He also offers guidance on Native American Spritualty and Walking the Red Road. I'm not sure what that means. As far as his following goes. I'm sure he doesn't have thousands of followers or anything, but he is pretty well known on the Florida powow Trail. I know he at least has dozens of followers. Maybe more. But your right, IT DOESNT JUSTIFY it.