NAFPS Forum
General => Welcome & News => Topic started by: earthw7 on July 02, 2009, 04:20:04 pm
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http://www.gadsdentimes.com/article/20090630/NEWS/906304001/1044/OPINION?Tit
le=Not-legitimately-Cherokee
Not legitimately Cherokee
Published: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 at 5:36 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 at 6:36 p.m.
I read with great interest the story by Andy Powell in the June 11 Gadsden
Times, "Group seeks recognition as tribe," about the so-called Cherokees of
Alabama applying for federal recognition and inquiring about an electronic
bingo permit. This group is not affiliated in any way with the real Cherokee
Nation or with the two federally recognized Cherokee tribes.
Although the so-called Cherokees of Alabama have been "recognized" by the
state of Alabama, state recognition requires no process for documentation as
a legal, historic tribal government. State recognition often gives
fraudulent tribes undeserved credibility and improper access to funding. It
also violates the commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution.
Fraudulent groups and individuals passing themselves off as Native Americans
have become big business, with more than 200 groups that claim to be some
sort of Cherokee tribe. There also are hundreds of individuals who claim to
be Cherokee or from the Cherokee Nation and offer services ranging from
teaching culture to spiritual advice. The Cherokee Nation does not question
anyone's claims of heritage or ancestry, but points out the significant
difference between claiming heritage and having citizenship in a federally
recognized tribe.
There are only three federally recognized Cherokee tribes: the Cherokee
Nation and the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, both located in
Oklahoma, and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians in North Carolina. No
group outside of North Carolina and Oklahoma has been recognized as a
legitimate Cherokee sovereign.
The "Eastern Cherokee Nation" and "Western Cherokee Nation," including the
"old settlers" and "late immigrants," joined in an Act of Union on July 12,
1839. There were no "lost" Cherokee tribes or splinter groups that hid out
or dropped off the Trail of Tears. Those who have Native American ancestry
but are not eligible for citizenship in a federally recognized Indian tribe
should participate in the culture through heritage groups and associations,
not groups that call themselves "tribes" or "nations."
Fake tribes and individuals with unverifiable ties to Native American
citizenship often claim to be passing on Cherokee cultural knowledge and
traditional arts. But these groups and individuals dilute true Indian
culture and identity. Many of them pass along cultural information that is
incorrect or that perpetuates harmful stereotypes.
When seeking authentic information about tribal culture, history,
traditions, genealogy and government, look carefully into claims made by
groups that are not recognized by the federal government, especially those
that claim to represent the Cherokee Nation or another tribe. The Cherokee
Nation is alive and well in Tahlequah Okla., as it has been for 170 years.
Cherokee language and culture still thrive there, as well as in North
Carolina with the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. Those looking for
knowledge should turn to historic, legitimate Indian tribes. Call the
Cherokee Nation at 918-453-5000 or the Bureau of Indian Affairs at
202-513-7650 for a list of legitimate nations, tribes and bands. For more
information about the real Cherokee Nation, visit our Web sites at www.
cherokee.org and http:// taskforce.cherokee.org.
Chad Smith
Principal chief, Cherokee Nation
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... The Cherokee Nation does not question anyone's claims of heritage or ancestry, but points out the significant difference between claiming heritage and having citizenship in a federally recognized tribe....
... Those who have Native American ancestry but are not eligible for citizenship in a federally recognized Indian tribe should participate in the culture through heritage groups and associations, not groups that call themselves "tribes" or "nations."...
Chad Smith
Principal chief, Cherokee Nation
Hi Chad -
Therein lies the rub, in my opinion, and this will happen for every tribe (nation) as time passes...
As I run into many people of Cherokee ancestry, I would be interested to learn what actions any Federally recognized Cherokee nation has made to help any heritage group or association? Or even if there is a list of them available via the internet, so that people seeking to fill those holes in their lives might have a place to head to? Such a site for people of Cherokee ancestry would help me greatly to provide reliable answers when asked, and prevent many frauds from operating.
I also need to ask, for that matter, has any other nation or people made any efforts in this direction?
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
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This is what the Al. law states about this matter of qualifications for State Tribes "LittleOldMan" Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.
History: Filed April 5, 1985. Amended: Filed April 5, 1995; effective May 10, 1995.
475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group.
(1) Petitioner must meet all criteria as specified in this section.
(2) Petitioner must present a list of at least two hundred and fifty (250) members of the tribe, band, or group (list must be inclusive by name and addresses), unless this requirement is waived by an affirmative vote of three-fourths (3/4) of the membership of the commission.
(3) Petitioner must present evidence that each of its members is a descendent of individuals recognized as Indian members of an historical Alabama tribe, band, or group found on rolls compiled by the federal government or otherwise identified on other official records or documents. Ancestry charts for each member citing sources of documentation must accompany the petition. Each chart must bear the notarized signature of the individual to whom it pertains. Photocopies of such documentation shall be made available to the commission upon request.
(4) Petitioner must present satisfactory evidence that its members form a kinship group whose Indian ancestors were related by blood and such ancestors were members of a tribe, band or group indigenous to Alabama. This evidence may be the equivalent of the ancestry charts required in Section 3 above.
(5) The petitioner must swear or affirm the following:
(a) No individual holding or eligible for membership in a federally or state recognized tribe, band or group may be accepted for membership in the petitioning group.
NOTE: This requirement is for the protection of members of federally or state recognized tribes who might otherwise forfeit services by becoming members of a non-recognized tribal group.
(b) That the criteria used by the petitioner in determining eligibility of individuals for membership includes but is not limited to the requirement of kinship through Indian ancestors who were members of a tribe indigenous to Alabama.
(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.
(7) Petitioner must include a statement bearing the notarized signatures of the three highest ranking officers of the petitioning tribe, band or group certifying that to the best of their knowledge and belief all information contained therein is true and accurate.
Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.
Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.
History: Filed April 5, 1985. Emergency amendment filed August 28, 1985. Permanent amendment filed November 5, 1985.
475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association.
(1) To be recognized as an Indian association, the petitioner must show at least a ninety percent of its enrolled members are Indian. The remaining members may be either Indian or non-Indian or members of tribes, bands or groups not recognized by the state or federal government.
(2) Petitioner must present to the commission the association's membership list including the names and addresses of all members and the designated tribal affiliation of its Indian members.
(3) A copy of the bylaws and constitution or purpose clause of the petitioning group must accompany said petition and be received by the commission.
(4) The petitioner must swear or affirm that at least ninety percent of its membership is Indian. No petition shall be granted a hearing where it is shown that the association, its bylaws, or purpose clause is contrary to public policy.
Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.
Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.History: Filed April 5, 1985. "LittleOldMan"
Online
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E.P Grodine,
The Federally Recognzed Cherokee Tribes primary concerns and obligations are to its own Tribal Members. Not to just anyone who claims to have Cherokee heritage. If they want to get in contact with Cherokee culture, then maybe they should move permanently to a Cherokee community in Oklahoma or NC. Or they can always go to "cherokee.org" if they want basic info. There's lots of info there about Cherokee culture that they can look into.
http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx (http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx)
And about the list of Cherokee heritage groups? The problem with that is that with these groups you never know if they are accuratly potraying Cherokee culture or not.
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E.P Grodine,
The Federally Recognzed Cherokee Tribes primary concerns and obligations are to its own Tribal Members. Not to just anyone who claims to have Cherokee heritage. If they want to get in contact with Cherokee culture, then maybe they should move permanently to a Cherokee community in Oklahoma or NC. Or they can always go to "cherokee.org" if they want basic info. There's lots of info there about Cherokee culture that they can look into.
http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx (http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx)
And about the list of Cherokee heritage groups? The problem with that is that with these groups you never know if they are accuratly potraying Cherokee culture or not.
While I understand the nations immediate pressing concerns, consider, Black Wolf, that as time passes your own or your friends grandchildren or their children may fall outside of Tribal membership, whether by blood quotient or for other reasons. What would you want to be there for them?
I hope something more is available for them then than what is available for PODIA now. This is a problem which not only Cherokee face, but every nation will.
These questions have come to me, while the answers are not mine to give. For example, if you go to powwows.com, you'll find an add where for a mere $100 dollars a firm promises DNA results down to a tribal level. Their customers are the people I meet regularly. The number of requests for genealogists I have received are beyond counting, as are the number of spurious assertions of prominent ancestors.
Right now the best I can do is tell Cherokee PODIA about routes through the original Cherokee lands, and hope that they run into good people during their journeys. I usually plan out routes for them around the Qualla lands, and particularly point to the museum there.
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E.P Grodine,
The Federally Recognzed Cherokee Tribes primary concerns and obligations are to its own Tribal Members. Not to just anyone who claims to have Cherokee heritage. If they want to get in contact with Cherokee culture, then maybe they should move permanently to a Cherokee community in Oklahoma or NC. Or they can always go to "cherokee.org" if they want basic info. There's lots of info there about Cherokee culture that they can look into.
http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx (http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx)
And about the list of Cherokee heritage groups? The problem with that is that with these groups you never know if they are accuratly potraying Cherokee culture or not.
While I understand the nations immediate pressing concerns, consider, Black Wolf, that as time passes your own or your friends grandchildren or their children may fall outside of Tribal membership, whether by blood quotient or for other reasons. What would you want to be there for them?
I hope something more is available for them then than what is available for PODIA now. This is a problem which not only Cherokee face, but every nation will.
These questions have come to me, while the answers are not mine to give. For example, if you go to powwows.com, you'll find an add where for a mere $100 dollars a firm promises DNA results down to a tribal level. Their customers are the people I meet regularly. The number of requests for genealogists I have received are beyond counting, as are the number of spurious assertions of prominent ancestors.
Right now the best I can do is tell Cherokee PODIA about routes through the original Cherokee lands, and hope that they run into good people during their journeys. I usually plan out routes for them around the Qualla lands, and particularly point to the museum there.
There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.
The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.
Edit for spelling.
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E.P Grodine,
The Federally Recognzed Cherokee Tribes primary concerns and obligations are to its own Tribal Members. Not to just anyone who claims to have Cherokee heritage. If they want to get in contact with Cherokee culture, then maybe they should move permanently to a Cherokee community in Oklahoma or NC. Or they can always go to "cherokee.org" if they want basic info. There's lots of info there about Cherokee culture that they can look into.
http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx (http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/Default.aspx)
And about the list of Cherokee heritage groups? The problem with that is that with these groups you never know if they are accuratly potraying Cherokee culture or not.
While I understand the nations immediate pressing concerns, consider, Black Wolf, that as time passes your own or your friends grandchildren or their children may fall outside of Tribal membership, whether by blood quotient or for other reasons. What would you want to be there for them?
I hope something more is available for them then than what is available for PODIA now. This is a problem which not only Cherokee face, but every nation will.
These questions have come to me, while the answers are not mine to give. For example, if you go to powwows.com, you'll find an add where for a mere $100 dollars a firm promises DNA results down to a tribal level. Their customers are the people I meet regularly. The number of requests for genealogists I have received are beyond counting, as are the number of spurious assertions of prominent ancestors.
Right now the best I can do is tell Cherokee PODIA about routes through the original Cherokee lands, and hope that they run into good people during their journeys. I usually plan out routes for them around the Qualla lands, and particularly point to the museum there.
There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancester thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.
The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.
True....
So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???
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E.P. Grondine
As I run into many people of Cherokee ancestry, I would be interested to learn what actions any Federally recognized Cherokee nation has made to help any heritage group or association? Or even if there is a list of them available via the internet, so that people seeking to fill those holes in their lives might have a place to head to? Such a site for people of Cherokee ancestry would help me greatly to provide reliable answers when asked, and prevent many frauds from operating.
I also need to ask, for that matter, has any other nation or people made any efforts in this direction?
Sometimes I think there needs to be a new way of thinking about the social identity / rights and duties of PODIAs which would be something along the lines of "Allies by blood" . This would acknowledge their connection to their ancestors people, and could map out some of their duties in respect to these people, but without the false sense of entitlements/ displacement of legitimate internal tribal authority, which create so many problems.
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E.P. Grondine
As I run into many people of Cherokee ancestry, I would be interested to learn what actions any Federally recognized Cherokee nation has made to help any heritage group or association? Or even if there is a list of them available via the internet, so that people seeking to fill those holes in their lives might have a place to head to? Such a site for people of Cherokee ancestry would help me greatly to provide reliable answers when asked, and prevent many frauds from operating.
I also need to ask, for that matter, has any other nation or people made any efforts in this direction?
Sometimes I think there needs to be a new way of thinking about the social identity / rights and duties of PODIAs which would be something along the lines of "Allies by blood" . This would acknowledge their connection to their ancestors people, and could map out some of their duties in respect to these people, but without the false sense of entitlements/ displacement of legitimate internal tribal authority, which create so many problems.
Not a bad train of thought on your part.
One of the things I was told many years ago was that sometimes medicine people chose to live that life, and become medicine people. Then there was those who were chosen by things much much higher then themselves. I guess you could say things of a supernatural nature had chosen them, and I don't know what other word to use for that.
Some of those who had been chosen by those things much greater then them at times would resist it, and not want to go down that road. Those things which were greater then them would bother those who resisted, and it would cause an internal struggle within the person who resisted.
Often times those who resisted would either eventually walk that road, if not some would end up going crazy, and in more modern times end up doing destructive things to themselves such as drinking.
Now I mention all of this because many of these PODIA's will often tell you they don't know why they feel so strongly about why they feel as if they from the people who may be from some ancestor of theirs many many generations back. I doubt any of them can really explain it.
So often times I wonder if perhaps they are not being sent to walk in that direction in their lives by something much greater then themselves.
I have heard John Trudell speak of genetic memory in DNA many times now. Perhaps that is what is the force behind it their claiming that identity, if you take heed in what Trudell is saying. The concept of Blood Quantum is not really a scientific thing, and so if Trudell's theory is correct, if he is the one who thought of this himself which I do not know, then genetic memory would be possible for even those who are highly ethnically mixed. That is because DNA can make a child come out with traits of an ancestor back in time a few generations that was of more of another ethnic makeup then their child descendant. This of course is another factor that blows away the concept of BQ, even if what Trudell says is wrong.
I have read on here a number of times where in the past even you have said that sometimes some distant Indian ancestry of a family or group of people remains as something important to them personally and whatever family or group of people they come from. Though you are right in that regards, perhaps in this regards some of that might come from things much higher then them, or any from mankind.
Of course none of what I am saying is to imply that any one of these PODIA people are entitled to things such as tribal enrollment, right to participate in ceremony etc.
What I am saying is that if what I was told in regards to some who are medicine people and how they chose to walk down that path in life was true, then I can see those things which are higher then us all deciding on things such as to have one of these PODIA people to take on an identity in which comes from being related to a person in their family that might have been from this tribe or that tribe. If that were to be the case, then in that regards then them saying so may in some regards be true if a higher powers were involved. To me that does make the phrase "all my relations" really ring true.
Of course the problem here starts when the concept of exploiters comes into play, or those who are not being guided by anything other then some twisted pursuit of the all mighty dollar, and they become pay to pray exploiters or those who try and start bogus tribes for the pursuit of $$$$$.
I am sure many here would strongly disagree with me, but if ceremony and dances have spiritual meaning to them, then of course they gifts that come from things which are of course much higher then any of mankind. So in that regards though it may be dangerous to just allow anyone to participate in them, which of course is NOT something I am condoning here. However it may be equally wrong in other ways to deny participation in things that come from higher powers based on the rules of man, out of fear of exploitation.
To use the laws of man to regulate identity, and down grade a person's identity from one thing to perhaps something from what it really is to "allies by blood," almost sounds like in the days when those who were of color in the US were only considered half a man. Though not to say, I don't per say, dislike what you are getting at.
To me this is especially true when the concepts of identity that are often times used to determine who is or who is not Indian come from the terms and mindset of the invading population who has done everything in their power to wipe that identity from this planet, and all of the culture and ways, spiritual and otherwise from the planet. Having also done so across the globe to most of the other Earth people's.
I often wonder how those who preach the concept of Blood quantum can do so while saying things like all my relations.
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Unenrolled Cherokees and other PODIAS have to earn the respect of Indian people. And they may even have to go the extra step because of not having a CDIB card. And thats up to them. The burden falls on them. Since they aren't from Indian communities and/or on Tribal Rolls, it is of course up to them to earn the respect of Indian people. I know a few cases of a few people who are clearly Indian but don't have a CDIB card. And I and others treat them as fellow Indians regardless of their enrollment status. So the point is that there are unenrolled people who in certain cases have no problem being accepted into Indian communities and cleary are Indian.
The main problem with Cherokee Claimants is the way the vast majority of them act and conduct themselves.
And the other problem is that probably a lot of them aren't Cherokee at all, and you always have that doubt in your mind. Thats another reason its hard to accept them as fellow Cherokees. In the cases of decendants who were'nt on Tribal Rolls, in many cases the Cherokee ancestors did their best to blend into dominant white society, or chose to hide or downplay their Cherkoee heritage. Some really did walk off the Trail of Tears, and choose to live in a dominant white society. I'm not judging them for that because no one knows why people did the things they did 200 years ago, but in a way, you could say that their decendants now have to pay the price for their ancestors desicions. Thats just life.
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The main problem with Cherokee Claimants is the way the vast majority of them act and conduct themselves.
And the other problem is that probably a lot of them aren't Cherokee at all, and you always have that doubt in your mind. Thats another reason its hard to accept them as fellow Cherokees. In the cases of decendants who were'nt on Tribal Rolls, in many cases the Cherokee ancestors did their best to blend into dominant white society, or chose to hide or downplay their Cherkoee heritage. Some really did walk off the Trail of Tears, and choose to live in a dominant white society. I'm not judging them for that because no one knows why people did the things they did 200 years ago, but in a way, you could say that their decendants now have to pay the price for their ancestors desicions. Thats just life.
Any such people who would have a problem with paying that price, would in my mind, be more interested in self fulfillment, rather than putting the whole of the Nation in the forefront of concern.
This should never be encouraged or even condoned.
Personally, I think most sincere Relatives don't put much more than a passing thought into these types of standards.
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Aieee! -
Now in addition to the spiritual thieves, there are state governments pressed for cash setting up tribes for the purpose of casino gambling. There are also people of legitimate descent excluded from tribal rolls, so the casino cash is not shared by some families. And state and federal law makers, laws, and courts decide it all. The consequences of the conquest continue...
I will not discuss spiritual matters such as what is known by Europeans as "callings" and the ensuing responses and responsibilities here on a public internet forum, as other places are proper for that; but I would like to note that for most PODIA in the east who I run into its simply a case where the hiding out and denial left holes in their lives (psyches) which manifest and they then try to fill, leaving them open to exploitation. These holes propagate for generations...
My thinking is that if associations or heritage groups are set up by the recognized tribes, PODIA gratitude would lead to appropriate actions in other matters. From strictly a political point of view, I think their support would increase the nations' political power.
I would like to share with you a story about a young man, a family friend from
many years ago (the 1990's), a long time back (wow, when did the 1990's become a long time back?), long before I began work with the traditions in depth. His peoples' land in California, north of Carmel, was taken for a military base during World War 1, with the promise that if would be returned after the government got done using it. When that time came in the 1990's, I watched the federal government, both Republicans and Democrats, fail to honor their pledge. The politicians promised the land would be used for all sorts of social good, but they simply refused to return it.
Money attracts people who are only interested in money; the spiritual thieves are far worse.
While the questions come to me, the answers do not; and they are not mine to give, as they belong to others. I do wonder what the Choctaw are doing in this regard, as their counsel seems to be valued, from what I have seen.
In closing, I would like to add that when I meet PODIA I always pass on warnings about both diabetes and alcohol. Those genes can manifest across generations, and often do.
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There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.
The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.
True....
So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???
Again? You've never asked me that question. Most people know who I am. It's no secret; I've posted about it here and elsewhere. But since you obviously only remember what you want or you think you're "calling me out" . . .
I am a Cherokee descendant. PODIA, maybe; just depends on what your definition of distant is. Three generations is not that far back. My ancestors left the Nation. My great-grandmother married a German blacksmith and became assimilated. I was raised white, as was my mother and grandfather. I have family on the Baker Roll. Do I think the Eastern Band should allow me to enroll? No, I don't. My ancestors made decisions and today I must live by those decisions.
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The main problem with Cherokee Claimants is the way the vast majority of them act and conduct themselves.
And the other problem is that probably a lot of them aren't Cherokee at all, and you always have that doubt in your mind. Thats another reason its hard to accept them as fellow Cherokees. In the cases of decendants who were'nt on Tribal Rolls, in many cases the Cherokee ancestors did their best to blend into dominant white society, or chose to hide or downplay their Cherkoee heritage. Some really did walk off the Trail of Tears, and choose to live in a dominant white society. I'm not judging them for that because no one knows why people did the things they did 200 years ago, but in a way, you could say that their decendants now have to pay the price for their ancestors decisions. Thats just life.
In America in particular, we can't leave racism out of this. I have friends and family (not by blood) with Cherokee ancestry who have light skin, eyes and hair, and have benefited from white skin privilege for their whole lives. So they have a sense of entitlement they've never questioned, because it is the baseline of their experience. They live in mainstream society, and they've never lived as a person of color.
So even if they are really sincere, there is a huge difference there. Hell, I've even met "Cherokees" who are racist against people of color.
If someone who looks the way they do, and has that background of unquestioned privilege, shows up at some NDN event saying, "I'm Indian, too!" but having no idea how clueless and offensive they're being... of course it's going to be a problematic situation. Difficult for everyone involved, and difficult for the next (culturally and visually) white person who shows up with the same claims. I think the exploitation of suspected, distant, or made-up Cherokee ancestry has gotten so bad that when someone says they're Cherokee... There's a kind of "Cherokee Cringe" of waiting for the other shoe to drop to see if they're culturally Cherokee or just clueless.
Blood, ancestry, heritage =/= culture
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I agree with that. (The fact that White Cherokees don’t face the discrimination that full bloods face). And its true that most low BQ Cherokees don't know what it is to walk around with dark skin. That’s pretty obvious.
But with that said, skin color, eye color, and hair color was never a real big issue with us Cherokees. It still isn't. Its mostly non-Cherokee outsiders of our Tribe that always seem to bring it up.
That’s not to say there aren't differences amongst white Cherokees and the Full Blood community. There clearly are. I have people on both ends of that spectrum in my own immediate family. And to me they are all Cherokees. In my family it was always a non-issue.
I was reading an article in the Cherokee Phoenix recently. And it never fails. The BQ issue is always brought up. Mostly by Wannabees that are insecure in their own identities. Usually when they (Wannabees) and other outsiders run out of meaningful things to say they bring that up. For example, recently a few wannabees have attacked Tribal Council Rep Cara Cowan Watts from the Fraudulent Indian Task Force and criticized and ridiculed her for her low BQ.
It gets kind of old after a while.
Its kind of funny how certain wannabees always bring that issue up and criticize low BQ Cherokees, when in fact they are the people that they themselves are claiming to be. Anybody that knows about politics in the CN in NE Oklahoma knows what I'm talking about.
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bls926 if your have people on the Baker Rolls, then I'm assuming you can't enroll either because of BQ or because you didn't enroll before a certain date? Somebody told me that kids have to enroll before a certain date with the EB otherwise they can't enroll. I"ve heard conflicting stories on this issue.
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What an interesting thread and valuable thread. Lots of good thoughts and wisdom here.
I fit the definition of PODIA. I often wonder what life was like when those decisions were being made. My family never hid being Indian, but they were assumed to be white by some (like census takers, for instance). My mother said growing up in Bennington Oklahoma, everyone in town was either Indian or mixed.
My great great grandmother said she was Cherokee but did not get on the Dawes because her husband drug his feet about getting her there to sign up. That's the point in history that made us legally not Cherokee. She is listed on every census I can find her on as white as are her siblings, yet two of her older sister's children were considered Indian enough to go to Carlisle. Their fathers were unquestionably white. (by the way BLS926, one of them was a German blacksmith. We might be cousins!)They were listed at Carlisle as Delaware. Just recently I found a Civil War Record with my great great grandfather's name on it, for the First Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, part of Stand Waite's Confederate troops. Family oral history says he was Black Dutch.
I don’t think there were dramatic decisions to be or not to be Indian. I think there were a lot of ordinary families making day to day decisions about what was best today for their survival. Move here, take this job, live in that community. From what I’ve seen of the census, a lot of extended families moved together. My family came from Virginia and Tennessee and ended up together in Missouri, then to Texas, then to Oklahoma. Hard to know in the midst of all of the moving what was going on. Impossible to know what they were thinking in terms of Indian identity.
What does that make me? A PODIA raised white, never feeling like I quite fit in, with that "calling" or void or whatever. Fortunately I was smart enough or observant enough or humble enough to not get pulled into the pretendian stuff. Partly because I have had beloved Indian family members by marriage suffer and die as a consequence of the aftereffects of the conquest, which leaves me just a little too bitter about reality to feed into the phony stuff.
I DO have a strong urge to make a positive difference somehow and I like the idea of allies.
Thanks for this thought provoking discussion
Nona
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I think that's a common mistake people have when researching their Indian roots. People might have a grandparent or great grandparent who was 1/2 or 1/4 or less Indian, and they were listed as white on the birth or death certificate.
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There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.
The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.
True....
So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???
Again? You've never asked me that question. Most people know who I am. It's no secret; I've posted about it here and elsewhere. But since you obviously only remember what you want or you think you're "calling me out" . . .
I am a Cherokee descendant. PODIA, maybe; just depends on what your definition of distant is. Three generations is not that far back. My ancestors left the Nation. My great-grandmother married a German blacksmith and became assimilated. I was raised white, as was my mother and grandfather. I have family on the Baker Roll. Do I think the Eastern Band should allow me to enroll? No, I don't. My ancestors made decisions and today I must live by those decisions.
Actually I did ask you before over on Indianz but you ignored me I thought.
Well anyways, so what you are saying is that you are not NDN.
That's all I really wanted to know.
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There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.
The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.
True....
So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???
Again? You've never asked me that question. Most people know who I am. It's no secret; I've posted about it here and elsewhere. But since you obviously only remember what you want or you think you're "calling me out" . . .
I am a Cherokee descendant. PODIA, maybe; just depends on what your definition of distant is. Three generations is not that far back. My ancestors left the Nation. My great-grandmother married a German blacksmith and became assimilated. I was raised white, as was my mother and grandfather. I have family on the Baker Roll. Do I think the Eastern Band should allow me to enroll? No, I don't. My ancestors made decisions and today I must live by those decisions.
Actually I did ask you before over on Indianz but you ignored me I thought.
Well anyways, so what you are saying is that you are not NDN.
That's all I really wanted to know.
Yes, you did ask me over on Indianz.com, but edited your post and deleted your question, before I could answer. No biggie. I had my very own thread over there, when I first joined, years ago; you're not the first to ask. Most of the old-timers know who I am.
I'm not Indian and neither are you. I'm a Cherokee descendant and you're a Choctaw descendant. Only difference, I'm honest about it.
Rattle, I'm not going to let you derail this thread as you're prone to do. This will not turn into a pissing match.
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bls926 if your have people on the Baker Rolls, then I'm assuming you can't enroll either because of BQ or because you didn't enroll before a certain date? Somebody told me that kids have to enroll before a certain date with the EB otherwise they can't enroll. I"ve heard conflicting stories on this issue.
To be enrolled with the Eastern Band, you must have a direct-lineal ancestor on the Baker Roll and have at least 1/16 bq. Anyone who was not enrolled when they were born, has one year after their 18th birthday to enroll. In my case, my family is not a direct line; my grandfather's mother was not enrolled. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count.
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I got it now bls926. Thats a shame. I've heard other similar cases such as yours. Your still a documented Cherokee though. As opposed to just people who say there are.
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Good post, Taraverti. Thank you for sharing. I especially liked what you had to say about having too much humility and respect to feed into the pretendian stuff.
My family comes from Western Virginia/Eastern Tennessee. I think they consciously tried to hide the fact that they had Cherokee blood. It wasn't something they talked about. My mother's family left Virginia and moved to southeastern Pennsylvania when she was a child. I grew up knowing Granddaddy's mother was Cherokee, but it wasn't really talked about much even then. I think the fear of discrimination had a lot to do with that. I remember as a child hearing them talk about when one of my uncles was driving tractor-trailer and couldn't get served at a diner in the south. The waitress wouldn't even talk to him. My uncle and another driver were sitting at the counter for a while, being ignored. The other guy asked the waitress if she could take their order. Her reply, "I'll take your order, but your friend needs to wait outside." I remember thinking, 'Uncle doesn't look black. He may be dark, but his hair is straight'. It never dawned on me back then that the waitress wouldn't serve him because he looked Indian. Back then, all people of color were discriminated against. I've never known that kind of discrimination.
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I'm not Indian and neither are you. I'm a Cherokee descendant and you're a Choctaw descendant. Only difference, I'm honest about it.
How would you know this exactly if you don't know anything about me other then rumors your friends have told you?
I will have to make myself perfectly clear here, I am not 3 generations removed from my people as you say you are. My family is active in the Choctaw community in Oklahoma. I could prove it to you on here if I so wished, but why should I as you don't like your personal info posted up either right??? Then of course I am going to have to answer to a few people as to why I am putting their names and what not on some website in an argument with some person I don't even know.
Part of my family came here to California, hence I was born out here. However the bulk of my family still resides in South East Oklahoma, just south of McAlester a ways. My family resides in the same town that they have since we were marched over there.
My family now, and has always been Choctaw. We have never hid it or denied it. My still living grandfather was being mistaken for a Mexican and beaten for it when he first came to California from Oklahoma.
Technically I am of two tribes, but I noticed you only named one here. I can of course prove that as well. However in that case I will concede that person whom I get that blood from, who was 5/8's Indian by blood, and died shortly before the year you were born, never enrolled. However they did raise my still living paternal grandmother whom was able to pass on things to me. Just like their son who was my great grandfather did before he died at a young age of 98 years old.
One thing I am not is a descendant or a PODIA. What I am is a mixed blood who's family has maintained who we are, and always has, and always will.
I do not lie about anything, but I do take an approach on how I see things based on experience, and what I have been taught by elders.
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I agree with that. (The fact that White Cherokees don’t face the discrimination that full bloods face). And its true that most low BQ Cherokees don't know what it is to walk around with dark skin. That’s pretty obvious.
But with that said, skin color, eye color, and hair color was never a real big issue with us Cherokees. It still isn't. Its mostly non-Cherokee outsiders of our Tribe that always seem to bring it up.
That’s not to say there aren't differences amongst white Cherokees and the Full Blood community. There clearly are. I have people on both ends of that spectrum in my own immediate family. And to me they are all Cherokees. In my family it was always a non-issue.
One thing I notice is that the concept of BQ, and who is Indian or not based on it gets brought up more online then it does off the net.
Well in fact I would say about 3/4's of the things I see getting argued about on here are not things that get spoken of as much off the net.
Most of these type of conversations are ones I used to have with a favorite elder of mine before he passed. Typically we would talk about such things as we passed a cigarette back and forth lol.
A lot of these type conversations are tough and complex ones, and seem to cause more arguement on here then off the net.
I do know people that hate on those cause of BQ being low, or not enrolled. Of course in those cases the people acting in such ways are usually just nasty tempered individuals whom many in the community don't like because of their behavior.
I know one family who treats their teenage niece very badly because she is 3/4's Mexican, and only 1/4 by blood from their tribe. Such stuff is sickening and heart breaking, especially when you see how it affects her.
I have seen it mentioned on here by some that a person isn't really Indian if they are lower BQ, and not experiencing racism etc.
To me that is a lame argument because being Indian is about being part of an Indian community and being recognized by them, knowing your culture etc. None of that has to do with if somebody is going through discrimination or not.
Sure a full blood is going to have different experience in life then somebody who is 1/4, but that does not negate that fact that they are both Indian. To say such things would be like saying somebody can not say they are an American because of the color of their skin or ethnic make up. I know that analogy is not completely right on to the topic at hand, but im sure you get what I mean.
People are going to have different life experiences because of BQ, where they live, money that have or don't, but to classify who is and is not Indian based on them is silly.
Heck I know of people who are considered as Indian around here who may or may not be enrolled or know their culture, but they are seen as such because they participate and contribute in the NDN communities around here, and do so in a good way. That tells me that people online spend too much time on here trying to be identity police, and really don't participate in real NDN commuties off the net like they claim to.
There is no one NDN experience anymore I don't think, and I can see the evidence of that every single day. I have friends of different BQ's, and some from south of the border. We all come together as friends because we have similar backgrounds, but not a one of us is exactly alike, and yet not a single one of us cares about that.