NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: koyoteh on March 17, 2009, 11:39:42 pm
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It is easy to use labels for people who do not know much who are just beginning to learn their history and their culture. It is easy to use labels for those who are are of mixed descent, "pure" descent, mixed cultures, or "pure" cultures.
It is easy to take for granted history and culture when one is born into it and raised in it. Easy to lose sight of having an somewhat intact or retained culture when one has never lost it. Never having to regain it somehow.
Labels can be destructive. Even for those who think that the label for themselves is good.
A PODIA label as well as others are destructive. Just another way to scapegoat. I understand what it is supposed to have meant, but as it is a label , it shares the same end of just being another term for those not liked and for the scapegoated and whatever else negative anyone can come up with. Its not yet at the serious negative level, but it will get there.
YES there are those who do not know much, are just beginning to learn, learning late in life, just finding out what their roots are, whether 100% 'pure" or mixed-blooded or mix-cultured in any way. It isn't for anyone else to decide what their fates should be. Only what they decide to do next that matters.
It is INCORRECT to assume that anyone would know just why these "PODIAS" do not know , or did not know who they are or were.
I have already read and heard that its because they or their ancestors turned their back on the people and culture, or that something embarrasing must have taken place in their family history , or that their family was kicked out for some shameful reasons.
Yes these things have happened before, but it is incorrect to assume , per individual, as to the reasons for people's predicaments.
Even those who do know and were born into their ways, their are also incorrect positive assumptions as to the reasons why they have maintained their traditional knowledge.
It is incorrect to make assumptions either way, for anyone , positive or negative.
Let me give just one example of a traditional sacred speech , sacred ORDERS that were given to one nation's people . The result of these ORDERS were some of the PODIAS of which people soemtimes speak of. IF so called "PODIAS" can be made in this way, then so can others have a similar "positive" reason for not knowing.
THE FINAL DECLARATION OF CUAUHTEMOC
Last TLATOANI of the MEXICA /AZTEC People
AUGUST 13, 1521
" Our Sun has gone down Our Sun has been lost from view and has left us in complete darkness But we know it will return again that it will rise again to light us anew But while it is there in the Mansion of Silence Let's join together, let's embrace each other and in the very center of our being hide all that our hearts love and we know is the Great Treasure. Let us hide our Temples our schools, our sacred soccer game our youth centers our houses of flowery song so that only our streets remain. Our homes will enclose us until our New Sun rises. Most honorable fathers and most honorable mothers, may you never forget to guide your young ones teach your children, while you live how good it has been and will be. Until now our beloved Anahuac sheltered and protected our destinies that our ancestors and our parents enthusiastically received and seeded in our being. Now we will instruct our children how to be good They will raise themselves up and gain strength and as goodness make real their great destiny in this, our beloved mother Anahuac."
The result , my people went off, and became distant. The more that time passed the more "distant" we became. BUT that was supposed to happen. IT WAS WHAT WE WERE TOLD TO DO BY OUR LEADERS. Right or wrong, this is how it was done , and it had a purpose.
By many of the negative remarks and definitions and assumptions that the term PODIA or even FRAUDS and other labels have been given, then my people do fall into this category. But we do not mind admitting 'ignorance', because it means we can start fresh all over again.
Because even a whole people can be ignorant and need to relearn and refresh and reunderstand, using the knowledge , traditions , that have survived from other helpful nations and just our own plain common sense and logic, then it should also be known that mistakes will also be made.
Whenever you learn don't you make mistakes? The more serious the matter the more serious the mistake, yes? BUt it is still the same principle at work. The same idea that making mistakes is how we learn.
Apply this to individuals you all know and are really talking about and targetting. I know you all are not talking about or targetting me or my people. But you should know that your statements does include more than you all say.
People who make mistakes are not always frauds. People who are ignorant or do not know or have Distant roots, does not make them stupid or unwise or not native.
Even traditions can conflict with each other.
IT is wrong and incorrect to assume that there is only one way to determine who is native and who is not. Wrong to assume we all have the same beliefs , even when considering elders.
Wrong to assume that being "DISTANT" is negative in any way.
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As always...an awesome post Koyoteh :)
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I doubt even one person in a hundred would call that "awesome" or even understandable. What Cuahtemoc has to do with anything said is about as clear as mud, just like the rest of the post.
K, perhaps you might start by introducing yourself first, esp before you go into a long confusing attack with your very first post, accusing an awful lot of people of things they never said, only things you make up or imagine were said.
Are you a member or supporter of the Aztlanista group that was once associated with the Eagle Mountain "spiritual community"?
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I gotta agree with Al on this one. Just don't see the awesomeness. I don't see how being a PODIA is thought of as being good or bad....in my mind it's a little of both, but it really depends on the individual and what they're after. If it's someone trying to reconnect and they're doing it thoughtfully and with respect, then it's a GREAT thing. People of Distant Indian Ancestry are so for personal reasons....I personally could care less about the cause, I DO care about who wish to reconnect with their communities. If someone asks for help I'm more than willing to help.
The Frauds are people who attempt to use their distant ancestry as a selling point to make money selling spirituality that they have yet to really connect to...and if they did....they would know they shouldn't be selling it and how damaging that practice is.
I have absolutely no problem with your situation koyoteh, but that's the thing...it's YOUR situation. Everybody's different and every situation is different. I've never assumed to know the history of any person of distant ancestry....they usually tell me in the first 2 minutes I meet 'em, but if they don't...that don't matter. They're still a human being and worthy of respect if they have respect for themselves.
Superdog
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Superdog
please forget about the "awesomness" comment.
"The Frauds are people who attempt to use their distant ancestry as a selling point to make money selling spirituality that they have yet to really connect to...and if they did....they would know they shouldn't be selling it and how damaging that practice is."
I know what you mean , and what you speak of. WE have ran into it a lot. BUT I still disagree with you on part of it. What I am saying is that there are exceptions to the comments made by people lately. They say things as if their comments include everyone and everything, even though they are specifically talking about only one or two people. That I feel is wrong and incorrect to do.
My nations elders and teachers are one example of this. It has been accepted to go into business using our traditions and knowledge . Let me explain. The business we speak of comes from a native view of business, not the american. But business is still business some say. Too long have elders from my nation and other nations gone starving and broke and homeless and just fade away. Too long are they looked up to for being wise, but then truly looked down upon as beggars and left to die. This I have witnessed from other nations. My own nation has only recently come up with a solution. But its a solution that many here have looked down upon.
Our teachers and elders have turned to accepting money. Selling items and knowledge. BECAUSE OF THIS, they have been able to travel to all of us wherever we are. They are able to feed themselves. They are able to shelter themselves. They have regained there self-dignity as a human being. They have even been able to create centers of gathering for us. Because they have done what others have said is WRONG. They are accepting money. They of course do have some guidelines. Be respectable. Use commone sense in what they offer ( like no selling of ceremonies or lodges ) . Never turn anyone down for lack of funds. But they also have to use commone sense for themselves in that in order for them to do their work, they also have to pay. So money is a necesasry tool for the environment we live in. THIS IS THE ENVIRONMENT OUR ANCESTORS DECIDED TO LIVE IN, whether by free choice or by force. Until things change , we must make do. My nations elders no longer feel like beggars. The self dignity has grown for the better.
When people give up some of their money, money that they worked hard for , it shows that they care. It doesn't matter the amount. It doesn't matter that its 'money'. Money represents labor we have done. Our labor means a lot to us. If I choose to pay for some knowledge, I am giving my teacher somethinng sacred, my physical labor. The sacredness of work being compared to money is something that is lacking in our native communities and it needs to be re looked at.
This does make some things difficult for us to tell whats fake and whats not.
It is also incorrect to make a generalized statement that all elders believe the same things. They do not. Its probably why many of our nations warred with each other in the old days. Disaagreements.
My nations elders have noticed the distantness of our people, and so have a different viewpoint of other nations. Remember we have over 500 of distantness , rather that the 200, or 100, or 50 years for some. We are where many other nations will be or would have been if given 500 years of becoming distant.
Our elders have thought it okay to use books now. Okay to use films. Okay to use websites. WHATEVER it takes now to close the distantness. Too long have we been given FAKE stuff, by even our own hands in attempts to 'protect", that too much damage has been done to overlook. Its time to fix it.
But yes, even we have to beware of fakes. I have to say its easier to tell who's real and who's fake from within ONE"S OWN NATION.
But I would never dare to say someone from another nations is fake or a fraud. NOT after what I've learned and experienced. There's just no way for someone from another nation to know about the other nations ways for sure.
"I have absolutely no problem with your situation koyoteh, but that's the thing...it's YOUR situation. Everybody's different and every situation is different. I've never assumed to know the history of any person of distant ancestry....they usually tell me in the first 2 minutes I meet 'em, but if they don't...that don't matter. They're still a human being and worthy of respect if they have respect for themselves."
I understand. I am not offended. I hope you are not offended by what I just said. I only like conversating. As long as we can all stay calm, I think we can have a good one. What you are saying , I am saying. At least that was what I was trying to say. We are all human and different and deserve respect. I say the benefit of the doubt.
But I also have to say that , No it is not just my situation. It is my people's situation. And also a situation I first experienced by watching other nations go through this. Especially the cali natives. They have a similar situation.
I remember the first time I seen certain people. I was quick to judge , and judged them fakes, 'podias' ( although not using that word ), and looked down on them. This because of the people around me who "knew". I learned , later, about these 'fakes" history and what they went through and why they appeared to me that way. I was the one who was wrong. And so were the people around me especially since they were the ones who "knew" and still judged them in a negative way.
Thank for your thoughts though.
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I doubt even one person in a hundred would call that "awesome" or even understandable. What Cuahtemoc has to do with anything said is about as clear as mud, just like the rest of the post.
K, perhaps you might start by introducing yourself first, esp before you go into a long confusing attack with your very first post, accusing an awful lot of people of things they never said, only things you make up or imagine were said.
Are you a member or supporter of the Aztlanista group that was once associated with the Eagle Mountain "spiritual community"?
I introduced myself a long time ago. BUt I never post in this site. Anyways, my name is Koyoteh. Hi.
I haven't attacked anyone. Just giving my opinion on the PODIA matter. Too me, to many generalized comments were made, as if the rule, as if without exception. I also read some of the words for this site 'purpose" or mission statement or whatever we call that. Same thing. Generelized statements made as if all nations are the same. As if all nations have the same reasons for being PODIAS or what SOME call fakes or frauds. By many of the statements made by many, my own nation as a whole would fall into the category of fakes, frauds, and yes even the PODIAS. and I'm talking about the PODIAS that people are currently looking down upon.
Of course I understand that people weren't thinking about my nation or me. They were really thinking about one or two people. But they really should say so , and whene they speak of these people, watch their comments, cause their comments could include more than just the people they are speaking of.
I don't know what "Eagle Mountain" spiritual community is. I would like to know more though. shit it just might be one them groups trying to learn but making mistakes. But I do believe in Aztlan. HOW and what I believe about it, is another topic. I'll leave it at that. Just saying the word Aztlan leaves people to make a whole lump of crazy assumptions. I heard em all. Craaaazy.
maybe you have some?
As far as attacking anyone, I haven't . OR did I? Maybe you feel you know who I am refering to? Maybe you have a name or two for what I am saying? Maybe its you? I don't know. Say them if you'd like. I really don't think it should be done, but go ahead if you want.
Be careful, as I said no names, once you say them , its on you , not me. If you think its you, well, I never said that. That would be up to you to decide if what I am saying even includes you in the slightest. I don't know you. I also never quoted anyone else for you to say what you have said. What I have said, is what I have read about. OF course , its my conclusions of what I have read. But who's else would I give?
I mentioned Cuauhtemoc for this reason. Many explanations were given elsewhere as to the what caused a PODIA to become a PODIA. Most were negative. Even the positive ones, were still put in a negative light. Like trying to relearn is a bad thing. SOME have said, maybe not you. Maybe not all, but some.
No one has yet looked at even the possibility that there was a reason like CUAUHTEMOC for causing some PODIAS to exist. Same result, different cause then anyone has mentioned. This says to me, that there is only negative reasons for PODIAS to exist. Cuauhtemoc told us , basically, to distance ourselves and hide. This coming from our ancestor. A warrior , military, strategist man. You gonna argue his or his councils decision?
everyone looking down on PODIAS in any way, without considering , CUAUHTEMOCS ORDERS, looks down upon all of us who obeyed our ancestors from this nation. I understand , this is not the intention. Therefore, a chance is being given to reconsider one's opinions on PODIAS.
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I don't think anyone "looks down" on PODIA's. It's simply a term for someone with American Indian ancestry, a descendant. If your closest relative with a direct link to your Nation died many years before you were born, you're a PODIA. Be happy with who and what you are.
Often times someone will discover, as an adult, that one of their ancestors was Native American. Sometimes they'll want to claim Indian status either for the financial gain or to soothe some inner need, fix some type of identity crisis. These are over-nighters, suffering from adult-onset Indian.
The problem arises when someone with little to no blood pretends to be someone or something they aren't. There's another term for that . . . pretendian. If your Indian blood could be poured into a thimble with room to spare, you can't call yourself an Indian.
Be content knowing you are a descendant. You can learn about your Nation, learn the history and traditions; but you're still a PODIA.
If the Nation you claim to be from doesn't claim you, you're not Indian. You can't speak for the People; please don't try. If you do, you'll probably be called a wannabe. That's a whole lot worse than a PODIA.
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But I do believe in Aztlan. HOW and what I believe about it, is another topic. I'll leave it at that. Just saying the word Aztlan leaves people to make a whole lump of crazy assumptions.
So you are an Aztlanista koyoteh? Does this mean you endorse a reconquest of the American Southwest by people form Mexico? Correct me if I’m wrong? Is this just a crazy assumption? Enlighten me?
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But I do believe in Aztlan. HOW and what I believe about it, is another topic. I'll leave it at that. Just saying the word Aztlan leaves people to make a whole lump of crazy assumptions.
So you are an Aztlanista koyoteh? Does this mean you endorse a reconquest of the American Southwest by people form Mexico? Correct me if I’m wrong? Is this just a crazy assumption? Enlighten me?
If by Aztlanista you mean what you just said then no , I am not an Aztlanista. At least not by what you just said.
The story of Aztlan does not only belong to us "aztecs" . However , it is the most widely known version , and we are the most widely known maybe the only ones known to claim it.
Reconquest of Aztlan.... thats a tough one to say . In some ways YES. But in other ways NO. A reconquest like taking over and kicking people out? Most of these types really are only talking to and about wasichus. They forget that there are other natives still there. Much like the talk about PODIAS and people forgetting US and that we are an opposite pole of the native spectrum of beliefs.
Reconquering as in metaphorically reclaiming our roots and heritage and ORIGINS in our native lands? Yes . This is what it truly means. This is actually how it started and what it was supposed to be about. But listening to stories of AIM and The Brown Berets, and DQ-UNIVERISTY, the civil rights movements, the Black Panthers, has gotten some of our youth involved with romanticism and fantasies of militantly "reconquering" and "taking the land back" . You should know though that when they say this , its like any other angry native who say they want to take the land back. I've heard that plenty of times from every native I ever ran into. Its only the angry mexicas that get the spanking for it though. They should, but so should everyone else. People , all people, all natives forget that there are living breathing natives in AZTLAN right now. Yes a lot of mexica descendants , in fits of anger, like other natives , start talking about retaking the land. The difference is that a lot of our youth want to take it a little further than that. But even that results to just a little more than rants some nice pictures, some articles, but still same thing. The real question is for anyone, is it right for anyone to retake the land anywhere? What would anyone do about the current residents? Native or not, that is the real question. It only comes up though when a mexica descendant yells it out.
The area called Aztlan is occupied by the natives that stayed behind and didn't leave. This is an important , but unmentioned part of the Aztlan story.
The Aztlan story says that the natives of Aztlan aka the SOUTHWEST left the area, one 'clan ", or group, at a time. The story only speaks of the ones that went south to settle in the Mexico and central america regions. But not all the natives left. And not all went south. These other descendants are the apache, the dine , the yaqui, and others. They are sometimes called the Anasazi. Mound builders, etc. Yes we came from this area. SO the point of us even glorifying the Aztlan story is to recognize our roots, our origins, to come to more of an understanding of the saying we were exposed to..."we are all related.." Its about self - identity. This is important , real important to a people who's self - identity has been stripped. We were born without it.
So no I am not one of them Aztlanistas who wanna retake and kick everyone out no matter who they are , cause its all mine. I don't know any Aztlanistas who really are like that. I don't think there really are any like that. But I do know of them.
I am a Mexica who believes in the story of Aztlan. In its physical sense and it metophorical and , yes , as my elders have explained it , the spiritual Aztlan as well. Only I can't really talk about that on the internet. At least not right now.
With these militan angry natives , well they just are open or ready to listen to , YET , about the other parts of the Aztlan story. They will though. As they get older and calm down.
I do and would endorse the americas to go back to all the natives. but even that is not realistic at the moment.
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I don't think anyone "looks down" on PODIA's. It's simply a term for someone with American Indian ancestry, a descendant. If your closest relative with a direct link to your Nation died many years before you were born, you're a PODIA. Be happy with who and what you are.
Often times someone will discover, as an adult, that one of their ancestors was Native American. Sometimes they'll want to claim Indian status either for the financial gain or to soothe some inner need, fix some type of identity crisis. These are over-nighters, suffering from adult-onset Indian.
The problem arises when someone with little to no blood pretends to be someone or something they aren't. There's another term for that . . . pretendian. If your Indian blood could be poured into a thimble with room to spare, you can't call yourself an Indian.
Be content knowing you are a descendant. You can learn about your Nation, learn the history and traditions; but you're still a PODIA.
If the Nation you claim to be from doesn't claim you, you're not Indian. You can't speak for the People; please don't try. If you do, you'll probably be called a wannabe. That's a whole lot worse than a PODIA.
I know what you mean, and there was a time I would have 100% agreed with you. But I have learned different now.
YES , there are some who look down on PODIAS. So much that they have to be seperated from the rest with their own term, rather than just calling them natives or relatives,etc. But I do understand what it means. Even if the term isn't a result from the looking down upon, MANY people do look down on them. I have met many of them. SHIT I may have even ridiculously been one of them at a time. I think many who are not , have even experienced moments of looking down on them. And then there are those who definetely are 100% against them. Its just a part of our life. No use denying them either. They have valid points to make. I think their reasoning is illogical most of the time , but they do make some good points sometimes.
If a nation you claim to be from doesn't claim you, thats supposed to make you not indian anymore? Thats just crazy talk. Thats Wasichu Talk. Actually its the white mans strategy of making us obsolete that this idea came from. All the BIA has to do is get the tribe to kick you out and BAM! you ain't indian no more and the govt no longer has to honor you. One less indian to worry about , until all the natives are gone. Of course they will only keep the ones that play their BIA game. Politics . Thats all it is. They've been doing that for years. Getting the natives to do it to themselves.
Shit , some nations aren't even recognized. So there goes a whole nation of people GONE ! BAM ! NONEXISTENT!
In a fit of anger any native with authority can kick you out. So then you aint native no more? Thats ridiculous. You may not be a member of that tribe, but that don't mean you aint native. Even then , in the old days, a kicked out member would go on and start his own family, until large enough to be a whole nutha nation. What then? IF we still have the rights to kick people out and decide who's a member of our tribe, then shouldn't we also have the right to start a new one?
Blood doesn't leave the body just cause someone kicks you out.
OR better yet, how about if someone decides the tribe sucks and leaves on their own?
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I doubt even one person in a hundred would call that "awesome" or even understandable. What Cuahtemoc has to do with anything said is about as clear as mud, just like the rest of the post.
K, perhaps you might start by introducing yourself first, esp before you go into a long confusing attack with your very first post, accusing an awful lot of people of things they never said, only things you make up or imagine were said.
Are you a member or supporter of the Aztlanista group that was once associated with the Eagle Mountain "spiritual community"?
I understood him perfectly as I have been reading his posts for a few years now on another site and understand where he is coming from on this. A little paranoid Al? Why are you falsely accusing your members of being associated with Eagle Mountain. i am not even a member of Eagle Mountain. So because I approve of his post that automatically means he is associated with Eagle Moiuntain? *shakes head*
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Nevermind, I see where you are only asking him instead of accusing him...but I still find your question to him odd since he has not made any mention of the Carnes. Nor do I think he knows them.
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Mamaduck I think why Al as well as other members on her are a little scheptical of Koyoteh Is becouse since he has came to this site he appears to come her with an agenda. That agenda being too protective for PODIA's, small BQer's, and people not being "Indian" enough for other peoples liking or approval wich leads me to believe he might be trying to protect the newagers and frauds from the heat rounds we are shooting down range to put an end to their poser parade. Fact is it is obvious Koyotey is not comfortable with who he is. This is shown by his lack of knowledge for his own people's language, instead he uses Lakota words. I know your arguement may go something like, " Just because he is not L\N\Dakota doesn't mean he can't speak those words." which maybe a point but just shows that he doesn't care to much for his own people to learn and speak his own nation's language, his own nation's culture, and be active and support his OWN nation's community. I'm sure if he did this there wouldn't be any issue with Koyoteh battling his own deamons inside cause I'm certain he'll find his nation will be enriching, beautiful, and a tangible way to find out who he is and why.
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Hi koyoteh
I think I disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Your point of view seems really personal and that you haven't thought that through to the big picture. Maybe it is just the way you communicate in such sweeping generalities.
When people here talk about people being PODIAs it usually means people have at least a couple generations seperating them from living in a Native community.
How i see it is BQ isn't so much a factor in someone being a PODIA as the general BQ of the community or family they live in or grew up in , because there is a general correlation between the average BQ of a community and how much of the indigenous culture has been retained.
Most of the people refered to here as PODIAs come from communities where at least %95 of the average heritage is European. While the small indigenous influence in those communities may be very real, from the first hand experience of having seen communities with a distant indigenous influence and having spent time in the actual indigenous communities these influences came from, I think is it really wrong for these people who almost entirely descend from settlers to imagine they now have a right to colonize Native identity, manage and maintain indigenous cultures, or access the few resources remaining to indigenous peoples.
But the main point I want to make here, is I don't think it's right to imagine the general Hispanic Mexican population are PODIAs. So the whole point you are arguing , and your defense of PODIAs as indigenous peoples is wonky right from the start - because the general Mexican population is much more strongly mixed and intermingled with the original indigenous populations than the groups usually reffered to as PODIAs.
In the 2 links below are mtDNA studies on the Hispanic populations of North Central Mexico, and the Hispanic population of Denver Colorado .
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288179
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GenealogyofMexicoDNAProject/default.aspx
These studies both found 85% of the maternal lines of these populations were indigenous - meaning at least as far as blood goes the general Hispanic population of Mexico is close to 1/2 of Native descent, which is similar to the federally recognized Metis up in Central Canada.
If one of your gr grandparents was Hispanic but you grew up in mainstream American culture outside the Hispanic community , then , in the way I interpret this, you would be a PODIA...
But if you grew up in a Hispanic community, I don't think it is wrong to say you are a mixed blood person of substantial indigenous heritage.
If you grew up in the Hispanic community, you come from a culture with a strong indigenous influences which has probably retained a lot of it's cultural practices though these have been covered over in the same way Christianity has covered over a lot of Celtic traditions.
I'm not sure if your beliefs and the people you claim as Elders are for real , but I would guess the people of Mexico are similar to the European Pagan community . When people of European heritage try and uncover their prechristian cultures it seems there is a lot of pitfalls to watch out for - one of the main ones being self proclaimed visionaries who are just making stuff up.
But to compare the Mexican people to the hoards of almost entirely non native people claiming all sorts of entitlements and a political identity due to some story about a gr grandmother, is really like trying to use recipies that work for apples , using bananas.
Oh and BTW the term PODIA is only negative if the people it is being applied to are wanting to negate the FACT that the large majority of their heritage is non native , and they feel upset being reminded of this.
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Some of what Koyoteh says does have historical truths. And Moma Porcupine is right when she says the majority of Mexicans and Mexican Americans are Indian ( Even if they don’t know their tribe)
I’m against open borders, and the agenda of the Aztlanistas. Aztlan, as the ancient homeland of the Aztecs has never been pinpointed. Scholars have not determined just exactly where Aztlan was. Some say the Mexican state of Nayarit, whiles others say Michoacan, and even others say other Mexican states. One of the Cherokee Creation Stories says the Cherokees came from the south who some interpret as crossing the Rio Grande. It would be the same comparison.
However some Aztlanistas just think that all Indians should be free to roam the Americas and go where they like without borders.
To connect Aztlan with the present Southwestern United States is wishful thinking and faulty historical revisionism at best. The people of Mexico who in most cases are of unknown Indian ancestry or of ancestry of tribes from Mexican territory, have NO claim to the American Southwest. Does anyone know what would happen back in the day when one Indian Tribe would encroach on the territory of another Indian Tribe? It would be time to throw down, to put it lightly. The Aztlan argument of open borders is flawed.
The only ones that do have claims there are the historical tribes form that area and their descendants ( whether documented or un documented). Pueblos, Navajos, Apaches, Zunis, Paiute etc.. And yes its true, that many Chicanos and Mexican Americans do have blood from these. tribes.
The fight of Indigenous people in Mexico should be found in Tenochitlan, not in some vague notion of Aztlan or in the American Southwest. Mexico is where a white Creole, and light skin mestizo minority are to this day exploiting Indian people. The White Creoles in Mexico still control all the wealth and political power, yet are a small minority there.
In a perfect world, Aztlan would exist where all Indians would live in peace and harmony, and the Hispanics of Indian heritage would be in charge and everything would be great. . But this world is not a perfect world.
The Nation of Aztlan is a hate group. They are anti-white, anti jewish and anti American.
Its funny that the Nation of Aztlan is anti jewish considering their bogus claims on the American Southwest. The Jews original homeland was in the Middle East until they were conqured thousands of years ago. ( Only returning after WWII). Which is kind of what Aztlan is advocating. A return to Aztlan by indigenous people of Mexico.
Read The article on their web page. "Twilight's last gleaming": The disintegration of the USA”
This really got my blood boiling though! They substitute the Mexican flag and Mexicans for the “Stars and Stripes” and Americans in the “Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima” picture taken during World War II. It is entitled “La liberacion de Aztlan” ( The Liberation of Aztlan). And it is on the left hand side. This picture almost made me want to vomit! My Cherokee Warrior Grandfather fought in that war and fought for that flag!, and our other brave Indian brother, Ira Hamilton Hayes from the Pima Tribe was there raising the Stars and Stripes!
http://www.aztlan.net/ (http://www.aztlan.net/)
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Mamaduck I think why Al as well as other members on her are a little scheptical of Koyoteh Is becouse since he has came to this site he appears to come her with an agenda. That agenda being too protective for PODIA's, small BQer's, and people not being "Indian" enough for other peoples liking or approval wich leads me to believe he might be trying to protect the newagers and frauds from the heat rounds we are shooting down range to put an end to their poser parade. Fact is it is obvious Koyotey is not comfortable with who he is. This is shown by his lack of knowledge for his own people's language, instead he uses Lakota words. I know your arguement may go something like, " Just because he is not L\N\Dakota doesn't mean he can't speak those words." which maybe a point but just shows that he doesn't care to much for his own people to learn and speak his own nation's language, his own nation's culture, and be active and support his OWN nation's community. I'm sure if he did this there wouldn't be any issue with Koyoteh battling his own deamons inside cause I'm certain he'll find his nation will be enriching, beautiful, and a tangible way to find out who he is and why.
I have never read about him speaking up for new age people or frauds. I have never used words from other tribes and do know what you mean by that but there is more to him than to judge him by that alone. He does get become very passionate about what he is feeling and deciding to post on. I know what drives him to post some of the topics he does. I have never witnessed him doing anything wrong to another or having malicious agendas. For as long as I have known him on other boards, he has been a very sincere person and the one most likely to be to look at situations from both sides.
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Nevermind, I see where you are only asking him instead of accusing him...but I still find your question to him odd since he has not made any mention of the Carnes. Nor do I think he knows them.
right I don't know , nor never heard of Carnes. I don't know who or what they are.
Who or what are they?
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Mamaduck I think why Al as well as other members on her are a little scheptical of Koyoteh Is becouse since he has came to this site he appears to come her with an agenda. That agenda being too protective for PODIA's, small BQer's, and people not being "Indian" enough for other peoples liking or approval wich leads me to believe he might be trying to protect the newagers and frauds from the heat rounds we are shooting down range to put an end to their poser parade. Fact is it is obvious Koyotey is not comfortable with who he is. This is shown by his lack of knowledge for his own people's language, instead he uses Lakota words. I know your arguement may go something like, " Just because he is not L\N\Dakota doesn't mean he can't speak those words." which maybe a point but just shows that he doesn't care to much for his own people to learn and speak his own nation's language, his own nation's culture, and be active and support his OWN nation's community. I'm sure if he did this there wouldn't be any issue with Koyoteh battling his own deamons inside cause I'm certain he'll find his nation will be enriching, beautiful, and a tangible way to find out who he is and why.
Actually I think it more important to use words that people understand, rather than worry about who's language the words belong too. If you know what a wasichu is, then thats all that matters. I have another word for it , but I don't use it cause no one knows it. What good would that do. Coyomay. Want me to recite my numbers in nahuatl? What point would that make?
I don't protect fakes and frauds, however , I have seen good people accused of being fakes at frauds at times by the same techniques that are used to single out the fakes and frauds. Does this mean that you are doing it ? nope. You know more about your actions than me. I don't know you or all the things that you have done. Just be careful of the things you do say and do as many times the results are permanent or have long term effects.
I happen to think you are someone that does care about that.
Protecting...hmmm. maybe. I have seen to many of my people get attacked for being to PODIA for some. Are my nations people too PODIA for you? I don't know . I hope not. Wouldn't make much difference to us, anymore, as we keep moving forward on our own. For you though, or if you're not guilty of that, then for others, it would make a difference in yours or their personal life. Never wanting to move forward with the PODIAS that are not fakes or frauds. But not looking further into just cause they are PODIAS. Like I say , could be you, might not be you. I don't know. You are taking this so personal that maybe you do have something against the "podias" that are not fakes or frauds or don't care to find out whether they are or not.
I have stated nothing specific of reference, but it seems you have specifics in mind. Share them if you'd like , then I could say something about that specifically as well.
Where I stand with my nation or my comfort , I have not talked about, cause this thread isn't about that. We could talk about that if you'd like , just say so. I always like talking about that. Cause there's so much. However, right here that is trickery to change the subject.
Agenda? Naw....I thought this was a discussion forum? Isn't the agenda supposed to be about talking?
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Hi koyoteh
I think I disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Your point of view seems really personal and that you haven't thought that through to the big picture. Maybe it is just the way you communicate in such sweeping generalities.
When people here talk about people being PODIAs it usually means people have at least a couple generations seperating them from living in a Native community.
How i see it is BQ isn't so much a factor in someone being a PODIA as the general BQ of the community or family they live in or grew up in , because there is a general correlation between the average BQ of a community and how much of the indigenous culture has been retained.
Most of the people refered to here as PODIAs come from communities where at least %95 of the average heritage is European. While the small indigenous influence in those communities may be very real, from the first hand experience of having seen communities with a distant indigenous influence and having spent time in the actual indigenous communities these influences came from, I think is it really wrong for these people who almost entirely descend from settlers to imagine they now have a right to colonize Native identity, manage and maintain indigenous cultures, or access the few resources remaining to indigenous peoples.
But the main point I want to make here, is I don't think it's right to imagine the general Hispanic Mexican population are PODIAs. So the whole point you are arguing , and your defense of PODIAs as indigenous peoples is wonky right from the start - because the general Mexican population is much more strongly mixed and intermingled with the original indigenous populations than the groups usually reffered to as PODIAs.
In the 2 links below are mtDNA studies on the Hispanic populations of North Central Mexico, and the Hispanic population of Denver Colorado .
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288179
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GenealogyofMexicoDNAProject/default.aspx
These studies both found 85% of the maternal lines of these populations were indigenous - meaning at least as far as blood goes the general Hispanic population of Mexico is close to 1/2 of Native descent, which is similar to the federally recognized Metis up in Central Canada.
If one of your gr grandparents was Hispanic but you grew up in mainstream American culture outside the Hispanic community , then , in the way I interpret this, you would be a PODIA...
But if you grew up in a Hispanic community, I don't think it is wrong to say you are a mixed blood person of substantial indigenous heritage.
If you grew up in the Hispanic community, you come from a culture with a strong indigenous influences which has probably retained a lot of it's cultural practices though these have been covered over in the same way Christianity has covered over a lot of Celtic traditions.
I'm not sure if your beliefs and the people you claim as Elders are for real , but I would guess the people of Mexico are similar to the European Pagan community . When people of European heritage try and uncover their prechristian cultures it seems there is a lot of pitfalls to watch out for - one of the main ones being self proclaimed visionaries who are just making stuff up.
But to compare the Mexican people to the hoards of almost entirely non native people claiming all sorts of entitlements and a political identity due to some story about a gr grandmother, is really like trying to use recipies that work for apples , using bananas.
Oh and BTW the term PODIA is only negative if the people it is being applied to are wanting to negate the FACT that the large majority of their heritage is non native , and they feel upset being reminded of this.
so far , what some of what I have read isn't just that PODIA are about people with non-native blood.
But as for the rest. You are pretty much saying what I am saying. WIth different words, and with stats to support. But that is what I am saying. I have come up with maybe a different ending though, maybe. BY other peoples SOME peoples ideas about what a PODIA is , is what I have commented on, and even though its supposed to be about the fakes and exploiters, well, unfortunately their ideas don't just include them , but helluva lot of the "hispanic" community.
The idea of 'hispanic" in itself is a whole nutha topic, one that comes up in my community a lot. We have tackled that and still tackle it. See even if I don't like the word PODIA , same as I don't like the word POCHO , we in my community do have our own words for the same stuff. For us , the ones claiming to be hispanics are the "PODIAS". They do it by choice and sometimes just by being unaware. Most of them are natives though and because of that , for us, they / we still have a chance . But if we use words like PODIAS, that will make them feel like shit , and then discourage them from going any further. Like I said , I know what you mean, but I also say its a messed up thing to do to people. You never really know if the person is genuinely trying to be real.
Having said that , we have had our share of plastics shamans and medicine men and frauds come to our neighborhood. YES we too have ran them out of town.
PODIA is not only negative because of the way the people who it is being applied to feel about it. It is negative if the person using it feels negative about the people that they are applying it to , or are using it unconsciously in a negative way or from a holier than though or high horse place. Most often it comes from people who unconsciously are on a high horse.
"But to compare the Mexican people to the hoards of almost entirely non native people claiming all sorts of entitlements and a political identity due to some story about a gr grandmother, is really like trying to use recipies that work for apples , using bananas"
well , thats what I'm saying , and thats what I am saying that many people do actually do. OFten unaware that they are doing so. And that is also what I am commenting on. If you aren't aware, hoards of us mexicans are compared and accused of being non-native all the time. By natives and non natives allike. And sometimes indirectly as a definition of some crazy idea of what a native is supposed to be.
"usually referred to" well I am also saying that. I will say again, as I have said a few times already, I know it wasn't directly or specifically about me or my people. BUT hopefully by showing the exception to what people have said about PODIAS using my own people as the example of the EXCEPTION, some changes can be made in the words people use. Like what you are doing now. Clearing it up. YES my people have become distant and we are fixing it. WE are distant, many of us are still distant. Work in the words needs to happen to exclude those who are working on it and are genuine.
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This is a complete change of subject dude. If you want to discuss Aztlan, we could make another thread. Otherwise, I ' m sure any response from me on this , will be seen as an "agenda" on my part. YES I know about Aztlan and have my opinions on it. Nothing like what you just said though. Someone here, already started saying i got an agenda and calling out the word "aztlanista". maybe it was you. I'm didn't go back and check. But what you said is not what Aztlan is about. Its what some only like to talk about. Also , there is no "NATION of Aztlan" . Aztlan is not a nation. Its a place. Anyone calling themselves that is just some offshoot private org. NOT representing the larger portion of the people. I do know of these gruops, but they are independant groups not representative of any nation.
Some of what Koyoteh says does have historical truths. And Moma Porcupine is right when she says the majority of Mexicans and Mexican Americans are Indian ( Even if they don’t know their tribe)
I’m against open borders, and the agenda of the Aztlanistas. Aztlan, as the ancient homeland of the Aztecs has never been pinpointed. Scholars have not determined just exactly where Aztlan was. Some say the Mexican state of Nayarit, whiles others say Michoacan, and even others say other Mexican states. One of the Cherokee Creation Stories says the Cherokees came from the south who some interpret as crossing the Rio Grande. It would be the same comparison.
However some Aztlanistas just think that all Indians should be free to roam the Americas and go where they like without borders.
To connect Aztlan with the present Southwestern United States is wishful thinking and faulty historical revisionism at best. The people of Mexico who in most cases are of unknown Indian ancestry or of ancestry of tribes from Mexican territory, have NO claim to the American Southwest. Does anyone know what would happen back in the day when one Indian Tribe would encroach on the territory of another Indian Tribe? It would be time to throw down, to put it lightly. The Aztlan argument of open borders is flawed.
The only ones that do have claims there are the historical tribes form that area and their descendants ( whether documented or un documented). Pueblos, Navajos, Apaches, Zunis, Paiute etc.. And yes its true, that many Chicanos and Mexican Americans do have blood from these. tribes.
The fight of Indigenous people in Mexico should be found in Tenochitlan, not in some vague notion of Aztlan or in the American Southwest. Mexico is where a white Creole, and light skin mestizo minority are to this day exploiting Indian people. The White Creoles in Mexico still control all the wealth and political power, yet are a small minority there.
In a perfect world, Aztlan would exist where all Indians would live in peace and harmony, and the Hispanics of Indian heritage would be in charge and everything would be great. . But this world is not a perfect world.
The Nation of Aztlan is a hate group. They are anti-white, anti jewish and anti American.
Its funny that the Nation of Aztlan is anti jewish considering their bogus claims on the American Southwest. The Jews original homeland was in the Middle East until they were conqured thousands of years ago. ( Only returning after WWII). Which is kind of what Aztlan is advocating. A return to Aztlan by indigenous people of Mexico.
Read The article on their web page. "Twilight's last gleaming": The disintegration of the USA”
This really got my blood boiling though! They substitute the Mexican flag and Mexicans for the “Stars and Stripes” and Americans in the “Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima” picture taken during World War II. It is entitled “La liberacion de Aztlan” ( The Liberation of Aztlan). And it is on the left hand side. This picture almost made me want to vomit! My Cherokee Warrior Grandfather fought in that war and fought for that flag!, and our other brave Indian brother, Ira Hamilton Hayes from the Pima Tribe was there raising the Stars and Stripes!
http://www.aztlan.net/ (http://www.aztlan.net/)
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koyoteh
Where I stand with my nation or my comfort , I have not talked about, cause this thread isn't about that.
Being a PODIA isn't a "Nation". It's either your real life relationship to an existing Nation ( as in a real place where most the inhabitants are living breathing citizens ) or it's something very personal within your own experience and possibly something that is just in in your imagination. Without a specific relationship to a Native community there is really no such thing as being a PODIA any more than there is such a place as "distant"
Having a conversation about PODIAs independant from any relationship to an existing tribe is like talking about how far with no refference to any specific place.
koyoteh
PODIA is not only negative because of the way the people who it is being applied to feel about it. It is negative if the person using it feels negative about the people that they are applying it to , or are using it unconsciously in a negative way or from a holier than though or high horse place. Most often it comes from people who unconsciously are on a high horse.
It is how PODIAs behave that gets them a negative reaction . And actually Koyoteh , you yourself are seeming to exibit many of the attitudes that often gets PODIAs a negative reaction, such as you sound like you are thinking PODIAs should be able to claim to be NDNs with no reference point to a real and specific indigenous community just because they wannabe - and sounding like you think every individual PODIA has the authority to just help themselves to whatever they want - even if it belongs to a completely different Native culture than the one they have some heritage from, or even if what they want to help themselves to, is not a position traditionally open to just anyone who wants it, even within the culture they descend from .
It seems most PODIAs aren't accountable to anyone but their own imaginations and high opinion of themselves . Which does tend to make them rather annoying...
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The thing about the comfort I think there is some confusion. Someone mentioned me not being comfortable. Thats all. It was personal toward myself. So I responded. It wasn't about any nation.
Of course people are going to respond to it with "attitudes". And it will be with attitudes of all kinds , not just whatever mine is. Look at it from the other side, if you were accused of anything, or made to feel accused, wouldn't you REACT? Wouldn't you feel something in return? MIght you not have a response? Strange to not expect anything but negativity toward the "accusation" or name calling. Which is basically what PODIA falls into. Name - calling. Kids stuff. But worth a thread to brighten the day.
Of course , as always , those making the accusations to others, forget the part they had in initiating the whole situation .And this doesn't mena I mean you. I don't know who initiated the whole PODIA thing. I'm sure people will tell me. BUt I'm sure there are plenty more names than just one to be fair.
To call the person negative who is treated negatively is crazy talk. To put words in my mouth of things I never said is also crazy. I never siad people should claim anything. especially without pinpointing some references. However, It is egotistical to think that anyone should have to pinpoint references to whoever wants them. Conceeeeeeeeeited. Thats what I call it. If someone says they are native but don't look it, then experience has already shown me NOT to just blow them off. There may be some reasons , a story behind them. The benefit of the doubt is due. I mean if we wanna have a good life. I won't invite them to anything until I know them though. Thats just common sense. Shit goes the same for someone who looks more real than geronimo as well. thats from experience too.
I do agree that "PODIAS" whether you are talking about are fakes, frauds, or genuine people, are truly annoying. I think I already said that so I won't argue that. Being annoying is way off from being fake though. They should not be grouped together just for that reason you give.
koyoteh
Where I stand with my nation or my comfort , I have not talked about, cause this thread isn't about that.
Being a PODIA isn't a "Nation". It's either your real life relationship to an existing Nation ( as in a real place where most the inhabitants are living breathing citizens ) or it's in your imagination. Without a specific relationship to a Nation there is really no such thing as being a PODIA any more than there is such a place as "distant"
Having a conversation about PODIAs independant from any relationship to an existing tribe is like talking about how far with no refference to any specific place.
koyoteh
PODIA is not only negative because of the way the people who it is being applied to feel about it. It is negative if the person using it feels negative about the people that they are applying it to , or are using it unconsciously in a negative way or from a holier than though or high horse place. Most often it comes from people who unconsciously are on a high horse.
It is how PODIAs behave that gets them a negative reaction . And actually Koyoteh , you yourself are seeming to exibit many of the attitudes that often gets PODIAs a negative reaction, such as you sound like you are thinking PODIAs should be able to claim to be NDNs with no reference point to a real and specific indigenous community just because they wannabe - and sounding like you think every individual PODIA has the authority to just help themselves to whatever they want - even if it belongs to a completely different Native culture than the one they have some heritage from, or even if what they want to help themselves to, is not a position traditionally open to just anyone who wants it, even within the culture they descend from .
You have mentioned your Nation but who are your Elders and political leaders ? Who are you accountable to? it seems most PODIAs aren't accountable to anyone but their own imaginations and high opinion of themselves . Which does tend to make them rather annoying...
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My last post wasn't worded clearly , and i didn't manage to say what I meant. Sorry i have been typing while I am distracted...
I managed to edit part of it before Koyotah posted.
My comment
Without a specific relationship to a Native community there is really no such thing as being a PODIA any more than there is such a place as "distant"
really doesn't make any sense as of course people can be a distant descendant of Native people without having any relationship with a tribe. What I was trying to say is I don't believe there is any such thing as being an NDN because of being a PODIA without a relationship with a native community , and I don't think PODIAs can get together and create a tribe of PODIAs . Sometimes a broken branch can be grafted back onto a living tree but trying to make a living tree out of tied together broken off branches just won't work.
edited to add
koyoteh
I do agree that "PODIAS" whether you are talking about are fakes, frauds, or genuine people, are truly annoying. I think I already said that so I won't argue that. Being annoying is way off from being fake though. They should not be grouped together just for that reason you give.
I don't think I've ever seen PODIAs called fakes or frauds here unless they are making stuff up (such as tribes, traditions or awarding themselves positions of public trust )
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A tribe nation is a place where traditions and culture lives
when you have someone whom great great great great great grandma was
a part of the tribe you no long have any right to that tribe and it culture.
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A tribe nation is a place where traditions and culture lives
when you have someone whom great great great great great grandma was
a part of the tribe you no long have any right to that tribe and it culture.
thats just wrong dude. It is conceited to tell you the truth. but I do understand the sentiment. I understand why people feel this way. but there is a realistic problem to deal with that goes along with this.
You see, not counting the fakes , frauds , wannabees new agers, claimer with not even a great great great to the 10h power grandmother of a tribe, we have a problem. One that all our peoples face to this day. And its more real now then ever. But it also presents to us an opportunity we haven't had since the invaders came.
We have many many disconnected natives. Distant, disconnected, loss of identity etc. For whattever reasons, however it happened , it happened. And still is happening presently. We have the choice to allow these people to continue on or to choose the kind of life and ways and culture we all complain about , we can allow them to contribute to the cultural destruction and obsoletion of all our people's , we can allow them continue in ignorance .
You know the things we or you hate about people ? You can allow them to continue on that way and be that way. You know how they are learning all wrong and spreading wrong stuff? Well you can allow them to continue on that way. You know how they don't know any better? Well you can let them stay that way. And there goes the culture dissappearing a little more at a time. Even our numbers will continue getting smaller.
ORRRRRR
You can steer them in the right direction, call them brother or sister rather than some crazy label, praise their efforts, lend them a hand, bring them back to their people , A PEOPLE , some people that can help them and ALL OF US out, and we have one more head in our numbers. And we all benefit and continue to grow stronger. Never dying.
Again , my people fall into this category of having some great grandma. OF having no land base any longer, of having no reservation even. Of having a language we no longer speak or even have use of, no longer having elders councils to make us official in other nations eyes, etc, etc, etc,
See my people have two choices even without these things you say are important to have in order to have a right to anything,
1) join ALL the other natives in the native world(s) : by reclaiming our roots, history , heritage, tribe, nation, culture , whatever, etc
or
2) joining those that are against natives : fakes , frauds, goons, BIA, spanish, latinos, hispanics, nationalists, new agers, etc,etc, etc,
What would you have the people whom you say do not have a right do then?
We have chosen to reclaim our roots, despite the odds, despite what other natives say how we don't have a right, and we are succeeding.
Creator gave us our own hearts and minds to figure things out alone. The only thing is we weren't alone. Many nations came out to help us.
WHile others turn their backs on us, it is only human to remember those that turn their backs on us who are DISTANT.
But we try to forgive, but not all do.
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My nations elders and teachers are one example of this. It has been accepted to go into business using our traditions and knowledge . Let me explain. The business we speak of comes from a native view of business, not the american. But business is still business some say. Too long have elders from my nation and other nations gone starving and broke and homeless and just fade away. Too long are they looked up to for being wise, but then truly looked down upon as beggars and left to die. This I have witnessed from other nations. My own nation has only recently come up with a solution. But its a solution that many here have looked down upon.
Our teachers and elders have turned to accepting money. Selling items and knowledge. BECAUSE OF THIS, they have been able to travel to all of us wherever we are. They are able to feed themselves. They are able to shelter themselves. They have regained there self-dignity as a human being. They have even been able to create centers of gathering for us. Because they have done what others have said is WRONG. They are accepting money. They of course do have some guidelines. Be respectable. Use commone sense in what they offer ( like no selling of ceremonies or lodges ) . Never turn anyone down for lack of funds. But they also have to use commone sense for themselves in that in order for them to do their work, they also have to pay. So money is a necesasry tool for the environment we live in. THIS IS THE ENVIRONMENT OUR ANCESTORS DECIDED TO LIVE IN, whether by free choice or by force. Until things change , we must make do. My nations elders no longer feel like beggars. The self dignity has grown for the better.
When people give up some of their money, money that they worked hard for , it shows that they care. It doesn't matter the amount. It doesn't matter that its 'money'. Money represents labor we have done. Our labor means a lot to us. If I choose to pay for some knowledge, I am giving my teacher somethinng sacred, my physical labor. The sacredness of work being compared to money is something that is lacking in our native communities and it needs to be re looked at.
This does make some things difficult for us to tell whats fake and whats not.
It is also incorrect to make a generalized statement that all elders believe the same things. They do not. Its probably why many of our nations warred with each other in the old days. Disaagreements.
My nations elders have noticed the distantness of our people, and so have a different viewpoint of other nations. Remember we have over 500 of distantness , rather that the 200, or 100, or 50 years for some. We are where many other nations will be or would have been if given 500 years of becoming distant.
Our elders have thought it okay to use books now. Okay to use films. Okay to use websites. WHATEVER it takes now to close the distantness. Too long have we been given FAKE stuff, by even our own hands in attempts to 'protect", that too much damage has been done to overlook. Its time to fix it.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I'm pretty swamped with work right now. This is a general response to your first post and others, but the quote above is something I want to talk about at length in a moment.
Your first post was extremely vague and didn't seem to be addressing at all what your later ones did. It seemed like what we've seen in here many times before, someone with a possible ancestor long ago who was upset all NDNs didn't immediately see him as one also. But your later explanations...
As for Carnes, there's a thread on his so called "spiritual community" and questions about his claims about himself if you're interested. The fact that Mamaduck knows you well, and she's spent most of her time in here defending EMC and absolutely refusing to say why or her connection to them...natural assumption to make when she chimes in with praise of a post no one else could get what it was about. The EMC people have been openly saying elsewhere for weeks they would come in here and "flame away" so caution is natural.
You describe yourself as Aztec/Mexica. I'm Mexican as well as NDN (Mescalero Apache). What you seek to do is something I have mixed feelings about. By both blood and culture, nearly all Mexicans are NDN, but what specific tribe is often much harder to make out.
I would argue that most Mexicans are much like the Metis, other than not having the legal recognition or status. A very mixed hybrid culture distinct in many ways from both Euro and NDN, but combining quite a lot from both, and often in new ways.
But Mexican nationalism, Mexicos' school system, Chicano activists, and others all encourage seeing the Aztecs as the stand in for all of Mexico's NDNs. That just isn't true in most cases. To me, only someone from a Nahua community should call themselves Aztec/Nahua/Mexica. And there's no shortage of them, millions in hundreds of communities across central MX. But for a Mexican to automatically say "I'm Aztec" is neither accurate nor right.
I have no idea if that applies to you though. I was speaking generally.
All of what you describe in the quote of yours above is something I'd like to hear talk more about. Could you give us some examples, websites, names of elders, etc?
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That can be compared to people in the US who might have some Indian ancestry yet they all claim Cherokee because the Cherokees were the most popular and biggest tribe on the East Coast. They need and are searching for some kind of idenity, and there is no generic Indian identity. ( Many PODIAS don't seem to know that ). On a separate note, In Mexico, many people don't claim their Indian ancestry. ( Because they were brainwashed by the Spaniards into beliving it wasn't cool to idenitfy as Indian.) You almost never see mestizos ( mixed bloods ) identifying as Indian. In some places in Mexico, if you call someone Indian, it could even start a fight.
And even most Indians that are obviously full blood or close to it will look you in the eye and tell you that their not Indian. To a certain extent, in Mexico, being Indian is a cultural definition associated with backwardness. So in a way its good to see people like Koyoteh who are proud of their Indian heritage. ( Maybe some of them aren't Aztec decendents, and some may have even been from tribes subjugated by the Aztecs) But the ones that are their decendents and lost their culture, as long as they learn about legitimite culture and traditions from legitimite Naualtl Communities and legitimite Elders, then thats a good thing. There are communities in Mexico. The reason I speak out againts certain Cherokee PODIAS is not because they are disconnected or not carded. Its because they misrepresent Cherokee Culture and heritage and make up their own ceramonies, name fake elders, adhere to stupid sterotypes etc. The same goes for people who claim Aztec/Naultl heritage. If they make up stuff, like ceramonies, customs, etc, start to name fake eldes, etc. then they are just as bad as the Wannabe Cherokees.
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glad to hear , without agreeing with each other, that things can be calm.
elders names , websites?
???
this makes me wonder if you are looking for validity of some type.
What I have learned and experienced from elders is that they are not all allike nor in agreement with each other. And my people have become so large and mixed into the general population everywhere that an official Council of Elders or representatives is imppossible to have.
Anyone claiming to be so is lying. But even that we have to be careful about.
Just among my own people , specifically in my own IMMEDIATE community , here in LOS ANGELEs, I have MY elders. They are not all of Los Angeles's elders. Just my particular group.
But we have one thing that is different TODAY, but I believe to have been the norm once, YOU may have your elders , I may have mine, others may have elders we don't even like, but they are ALL to be given the same respect of being older than us. NO MORE NO LESS just based on their age. More can be given to those we deeply respect, but common courtesy of their age should always be observed.
It is dangerous for me to give you a list of names for MY elders, if I love them. To put their names on the line. To put them up to being judged real or fake for the sake of MY pride is wrong. Sorry , but respectfully , I can't do it.
Websites? Thats tough , but there are some good ones out there. What kind of websites are you talking about?
My nations elders and teachers are one example of this. It has been accepted to go into business using our traditions and knowledge . Let me explain. The business we speak of comes from a native view of business, not the american. But business is still business some say. Too long have elders from my nation and other nations gone starving and broke and homeless and just fade away. Too long are they looked up to for being wise, but then truly looked down upon as beggars and left to die. This I have witnessed from other nations. My own nation has only recently come up with a solution. But its a solution that many here have looked down upon.
Our teachers and elders have turned to accepting money. Selling items and knowledge. BECAUSE OF THIS, they have been able to travel to all of us wherever we are. They are able to feed themselves. They are able to shelter themselves. They have regained there self-dignity as a human being. They have even been able to create centers of gathering for us. Because they have done what others have said is WRONG. They are accepting money. They of course do have some guidelines. Be respectable. Use commone sense in what they offer ( like no selling of ceremonies or lodges ) . Never turn anyone down for lack of funds. But they also have to use commone sense for themselves in that in order for them to do their work, they also have to pay. So money is a necesasry tool for the environment we live in. THIS IS THE ENVIRONMENT OUR ANCESTORS DECIDED TO LIVE IN, whether by free choice or by force. Until things change , we must make do. My nations elders no longer feel like beggars. The self dignity has grown for the better.
When people give up some of their money, money that they worked hard for , it shows that they care. It doesn't matter the amount. It doesn't matter that its 'money'. Money represents labor we have done. Our labor means a lot to us. If I choose to pay for some knowledge, I am giving my teacher somethinng sacred, my physical labor. The sacredness of work being compared to money is something that is lacking in our native communities and it needs to be re looked at.
This does make some things difficult for us to tell whats fake and whats not.
It is also incorrect to make a generalized statement that all elders believe the same things. They do not. Its probably why many of our nations warred with each other in the old days. Disaagreements.
My nations elders have noticed the distantness of our people, and so have a different viewpoint of other nations. Remember we have over 500 of distantness , rather that the 200, or 100, or 50 years for some. We are where many other nations will be or would have been if given 500 years of becoming distant.
Our elders have thought it okay to use books now. Okay to use films. Okay to use websites. WHATEVER it takes now to close the distantness. Too long have we been given FAKE stuff, by even our own hands in attempts to 'protect", that too much damage has been done to overlook. Its time to fix it.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I'm pretty swamped with work right now. This is a general response to your first post and others, but the quote above is something I want to talk about at length in a moment.
Your first post was extremely vague and didn't seem to be addressing at all what your later ones did. It seemed like what we've seen in here many times before, someone with a possible ancestor long ago who was upset all NDNs didn't immediately see him as one also. But your later explanations...
As for Carnes, there's a thread on his so called "spiritual community" and questions about his claims about himself if you're interested. The fact that Mamaduck knows you well, and she's spent most of her time in here defending EMC and absolutely refusing to say why or her connection to them...natural assumption to make when she chimes in with praise of a post no one else could get what it was about. The EMC people have been openly saying elsewhere for weeks they would come in here and "flame away" so caution is natural.
You describe yourself as Aztec/Mexica. I'm Mexican as well as NDN (Mescalero Apache). What you seek to do is something I have mixed feelings about. By both blood and culture, nearly all Mexicans are NDN, but what specific tribe is often much harder to make out.
I would argue that most Mexicans are much like the Metis, other than not having the legal recognition or status. A very mixed hybrid culture distinct in many ways from both Euro and NDN, but combining quite a lot from both, and often in new ways.
But Mexican nationalism, Mexicos' school system, Chicano activists, and others all encourage seeing the Aztecs as the stand in for all of Mexico's NDNs. That just isn't true in most cases. To me, only someone from a Nahua community should call themselves Aztec/Nahua/Mexica. And there's no shortage of them, millions in hundreds of communities across central MX. But for a Mexican to automatically say "I'm Aztec" is neither accurate nor right.
I have no idea if that applies to you though. I was speaking generally.
All of what you describe in the quote of yours above is something I'd like to hear talk more about. Could you give us some examples, websites, names of elders, etc?
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the cherookees are reall good example to work with.
I had this problem once , just blowing them off, and for the most part I still kinda do. What I mean is when ever anyone says this , I tell myself , MAYBE but PROBABLY not. This is the benefit of the doubt. I find it more constructive.
See a while back I looked into their history. They mixed heavily with the white people. Took up many of their ways early. For this , many nations hate on them. Justifiably or not , they still hate on them. For anyone to be a real Cherokee doesn't make other natives feel any better about them. Thats not my fault, thats just an observation. So does it really matter if they are telling the truth or not? Dammed if they are Dammed if they ain't.
What I am saying is that it is VERY VERY possible that they are cherokee. Just cause they don't look it or can't prove it , doesn't mean much to me anymore considering the history of their people , its is very very possible.
The next question after that is "Does it really matter to me that much? Why should it?"
Unless they are exploiting , or being new agey, or annoying , then no it doesn't. And if it does, I just need to avoid them. NOT tear them up. The only time to tear them up is if they are hurting someone. And that goes for anyone not just non-natives.
That can be compared to people in the US who might have some Indian ancestry yet they all claim Cherokee because the Cherokees were the most popular and biggest tribe on the East Coast. They need and are searching for some kind of idenity, and there is no generic Indian identity. ( Many PODIAS don't seem to know that ). On a separate note, In Mexico, many people don't claim their Indian ancestry. ( Because they were brainwashed by the Spaniards into beliving it wasn't cool to idenitfy as Indian.) You almost never see mestizos ( mixed bloods ) identifying as Indian. In some places in Mexico, if you call someone Indian, it could even start a fight.
And even most Indians that are obviously full blood or close to it will look you in the eye and tell you that their not Indian. To a certain extent, in Mexico, being Indian is a cultural definition associated with backwardness. So in a way its good to see people like Koyoteh who are proud of their Indian heritage. ( Maybe some of them aren't Aztec decendents, and some may have even been from tribes subjugated by the Aztecs) But the ones that are their decendents and lost their culture, as long as they learn about legitimite culture and traditions from legitimite Naualtl Communities and legitimite Elders, then thats a good thing. There are communities in Mexico. The reason I speak out againts certain Cherokee PODIAS is not because they are disconnected or not carded. Its because they misrepresent Cherokee Culture and heritage and make up their own ceramonies, name fake elders, adhere to stupid sterotypes etc. The same goes for people who claim Aztec/Naultl heritage. If they make up stuff, like ceramonies, customs, etc, start to name fake eldes, etc. then they are just as bad as the Wannabe Cherokees.
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The only think i have to say on all this post is that
first i am not a dude ;D
second we are not disappearing but grow fast in my area we are
the fastest growing populations in the state.
It is really hard to understand where people are coming from today.
People whom great great great grandma was natve is nice.
I want to know how they lived their culture without the other culture taken over.
I find that there is so little that we have in common with the non-native
cultures.
It is the way for Native people to connnect to each other by asking
who are you?
who are your relatives?
which family claims you?
which nation claims you?
If you have no family that claims you then you are not a part of the nation because
the nation is family.
So let see your great great great great grandma was Native---culture exist
She married a non native-combined culture
her son or daughter married a non-native-1/3 of the culture is still there
her son or daughter married a non Native- maybe some stories and a few words or memories
her son or daughter married a non Native-some stories that have changed, no culture pratices
her son or daughter married a non Native-just a mention oh your great great great great gradma was Indian
then there is you-
Unless a person lived their culture everyday it changes, each generation bring in the new.
I am still in the part of the country where we still are full blood and our culture is very much alive
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For me , my family didn't want me to know my nativeness. Even their families kept them out to some degree.
It was a matter of historical problems. SOme they witnessed some they knew about , and they just didn't want me to go through that bullshit.
So it was for many families that are native but who's children no nothing while growing up.
I understand where they were coming from. But the problem here is that when I , and others find and found out, we become , at first reaction, very upset. You can guess or figure out all the possibilities of what 'upset" can mean.
It takes a while for these people , us, to get over it and calm down enough to move forward. But they do, we do , I did.
Thats who my family is , at least from what we are talking about here.
I don't have to have an opinion about it anymore. Its a matter of accepting that this is what happened and move on.
and before anyone says anything, I did move on. I only come back to discussions like this once in a while, cause I did experience some things and I find it interesting.
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man am here years later. someone mentioned me in another website as having read about me on this site.
well i haven't read anything bad yet, except for that same person just yesterday, saying he read something bad. which it was him that wrote it . lol.
anyhow, years later i have learned more. heard more. some things i care about more and some things less.
but to the topic of cuauhtemocs lasts orders.
i was told , no matter how moving they are , i was told by one person , just one, who likes to do research , that the speech is fake.
yeah fake.
is it?
i don't know. i can offer no proof that its reall or fake. i offer the story.
but this person said it was created in the 1970's to move the people. which is good. but that it was still fake.
well........ i leave it up to everyone to look into it themselves.
still a good speeech though.
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:)
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It is good you are back It is time for people to stand up but
as a new definition of who we are, even those of us who
live on the reservation have to redefine ourselves.
thats pretty bold to say.
i mean especially if you are from a reservation. I have heard many who would disagree with that.
i don't disagree.
redefining ourselves is part of the process. after all these years, i think this word is a good word to use. Might have save me all kinds of miscommunications if i used this word. Cause this is what i meant a lot of times i ever spoke.
years later.....heheh.
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:)