Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 134623 times)

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2009, 04:50:24 am »
Quote
It left me thinking that 'those' descendants would never be welcomed regardless of anything.

I personally don't care about someone's enrollement status as to whether or not their Indian.  But I do try to sort through legit claims from bogus ones. 

But in response to what you said, and from my experience with my fellow Cherokees, and to be completely honest with you, your probably right. 

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2009, 05:40:05 am »
Rattle, you say you "didn't start anything", you were only giving an example "without mention of names", and "placed no insults whatsoever in the posting". I guess I look at it differently, based on my experiences with you. No, you didn't out-right attack me; it was more subtle than that. I was neither emotional nor angry, just wanted to set the record straight. Please don't play the victim here; you are far from that.

Why did I post what I did about how my family left the Nation? Might have been in response to your "I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled." Almost sounds like you're questioning the validity of my claim. Don't do that. Rattle, you seem to have a fascination with my genealogy, researching who I am and what my ties to the Cherokee Nation are. Word of advice, it's not a good idea to assume that I'm related to every Singleton.

As for my thinking "that everyone on here owes you details about their lives at times" . . . When have you ever seen me question who someone is or what Nation claims them? Tsisqua, Zoi Lightfoot, Linda Lou Flewin, and members of the Blackwater Muskogee don't count. They were/are pretendians who think they can speak for Indians. Exposing frauds is what we do here. Remember?

Okay, Rattle, I'll admit that I did say that you weren't Indian. Maybe I was testing you. I apologize for that. Other than that, I have never attacked you in any way.

As for the rest of your post . . . How did this turn into a discussion of Ben Carnes, Tachia, Walks, Danielle, or anyone else in you past or present? Personally, I don't care what started the feud between y'all. I've only made observations as they pertained to things that have been posted here on NAFPS. When y'all bring your dirty laundry here, it's hard not to comment from time to time. I have never lied about you or anyone else.

Yes, I'm old enough to be your mother. Definitely not old enough to be your grandmother. Based on my age, you would expect better of me. Better than what? I haven't attacked you. I may disagree with some of the things you say, but I don't attack you. I've never made "false statements" about you or anyone else.

Owe you an apology?  I've already apologized for saying you aren't Indian. Other than that, I have nothing to apologize for.

Rattle, if you want to continue this discussion, pm or e-mail me. This doesn't belong on NAFPS.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 05:42:00 am by bls926 »

apukjij

  • Guest
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2009, 06:20:29 am »
Good questions Moma P, and I wonder the same.  I do have a question though, about ndn's who leave and then come back.  I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back, do the people take personal offense when a member has to go to another 'world' (so to speak) in order to see the value of the one they left.. or to realize the value of their people. 
I can speak of my experience on this matter directly. after leaving my Italian father my mother me and sister moved from the US back to Canada to our reserve. we were warmly welcomed by family and friends. but not by the powers that be. we ended up in a condemned house. me and my sister and all residents of the reserve with non-native fathers are denied voting and housing rights. my mother confronted the chief and council directly. and was told to her face "because you did not give what you had to one of us (a Mi'kmaw man) you deserve NOTHING. Your like ******* (the white squatter who has lived all his life on a desolate corner of the reserve far from the people).
and of all the colonizing forces we have remained resilient against i put most of the blame on the Shubenacadie Residential School that my mother and the elders were abducted to (the indian agent sent the children to the Resie school for the slightest reason, all the while pocketing their welfare cheque during their stay thus the conspiracy to assimilate involved not only Indian Affairs but to the churches trickling down to even the indian agents the non native administrators who were the band managers until the 60's ). this is where our People learned punishment. Before to punish a child, a parent used the Mi'kmaw Custom of commanding the child to go pick a strong twig off a bush and threatening lashes. in most cases the very act of picking out a twig for their own punishment, left the child completely repentant and contrite so the lash was never put to use. at the Resie school, our people were punished mercilessly, even for only speaking Mi'kmaq; as so eloquently put by one of our late beloved Elders http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html
and then the torture, sexual abuse and cult abuse (the children had to attend mass daily, pray the rosary and have prayer sessions throughout the day), these children missed out on a generation of parenting skills in the Mi'kmaq ways. and my nation suffered a huge language loss. and the overwheming majority of my Elders think the Pipe and the Drum are pagan ways. Punishment became like a sickness. It permeates all aspects of my community, including domestic violence. and thats what the chief and council did to all of us half-breeds and our mothers. they punished us too.. heres another example. The chief and council recently moved that any person charged with trafficking will face enormous repercussions,
http://media.knet.ca/node/6700
of course we want our children off the pills desperately, theres been 26 youth suicides in Eskasoni in the past 2 years, of the 14 castle bay teenagers who made up the crew i belonged to, 9 of them have committed suicide,
the controversy behind this new band council resolution is that a person need only be charged... not convicted! so if you want to get someone out of the community set them up and call the tip line, not every person charged is guilty but all will be punished anyway. like the grandmother, who simply took in her grandson who ending up being charged, now the band council is refusing to repair the dangerous leaking roof on her house.
the saddest fact of the matter is that if you are not of the 3 or 4 clans that rule Eskasoni you don't get to take advantage of all the benefits that the chief and councils are removing from these trafficking charged members of the community, if your not related then you don't get much, and the job postings have qualifications that are such that the poor and poverty stricken will never meet, theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,  
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2009, 11:05:26 am »
Quote
But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

What do you mean by this Paul123?  Give me an example of a "daming statement"  I think the Task Force has been more then fair and mabye even a little too generous about not questioning people's claims of Cherokee Heritage.   

I don't have anything right on the tip of my fingers,,,
how 'bout trying to get all State Tribes outlawed.
I mean do they really think if that happened that those Tribes would go away? Did the CNO fold up and assimilate when the BIA declared that there was no Cherokee Nation? The Freeman thing is bad enough, but does anyone think that the CNO will ever get the Fed. Gov. to disenfranchise all of the people that are members of the State Tribes? Like I said in another thread, they should be careful that it doesn't backfire. I think that they are being careful, and have turned down the path of the Satellite communities. 

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2009, 04:15:50 pm »

I can speak of my experience on this matter directly. after leaving my Italian father my mother me and sister moved from the US back to Canada to our reserve. we were warmly welcomed by family and friends. but not by the powers that be. we ended up in a condemned house. me and my sister and all residents of the reserve with non-native fathers are denied voting and housing rights. my mother confronted the chief and council directly. and was told to her face "because you did not give what you had to one of us (a Mi'kmaw man) you deserve NOTHING. Your like ******* (the white squatter who has lived all his life on a desolate corner of the reserve far from the people).
and of all the colonizing forces we have remained resilient against i put most of the blame on the Shubenacadie Residential School that my mother and the elders were abducted to (the indian agent sent the children to the Resie school for the slightest reason, all the while pocketing their welfare cheque during their stay thus the conspiracy to assimilate involved not only Indian Affairs but to the churches trickling down to even the indian agents the non native administrators who were the band managers until the 60's ). this is where our People learned punishment. Before to punish a child, a parent used the Mi'kmaw Custom of commanding the child to go pick a strong twig off a bush and threatening lashes. in most cases the very act of picking out a twig for their own punishment, left the child completely repentant and contrite so the lash was never put to use. at the Resie school, our people were punished mercilessly, even for only speaking Mi'kmaq; as so eloquently put by one of our late beloved Elders http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html
and then the torture, sexual abuse and cult abuse (the children had to attend mass daily, pray the rosary and have prayer sessions throughout the day), these children missed out on a generation of parenting skills in the Mi'kmaq ways. and my nation suffered a huge language loss. and the overwheming majority of my Elders think the Pipe and the Drum are pagan ways. Punishment became like a sickness. It permeates all aspects of my community, including domestic violence. and thats what the chief and council did to all of us half-breeds and our mothers. they punished us too.. heres another example. The chief and council recently moved that any person charged with trafficking will face enormous repercussions,
http://media.knet.ca/node/6700
of course we want our children off the pills desperately, theres been 26 youth suicides in Eskasoni in the past 2 years, of the 14 castle bay teenagers who made up the crew i belonged to, 9 of them have committed suicide,
the controversy behind this new band council resolution is that a person need only be charged... not convicted! so if you want to get someone out of the community set them up and call the tip line, not every person charged is guilty but all will be punished anyway. like the grandmother, who simply took in her grandson who ending up being charged, now the band council is refusing to repair the dangerous leaking roof on her house.
the saddest fact of the matter is that if you are not of the 3 or 4 clans that rule Eskasoni you don't get to take advantage of all the benefits that the chief and councils are removing from these trafficking charged members of the community, if your not related then you don't get much, and the job postings have qualifications that are such that the poor and poverty stricken will never meet, theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,  
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.

This is more sad than I have words to express, but I wanted to acknowledge your story. You are strong to survive, and I have no words I can really say to you that would mean anything.  I wish I had a word to say, that would sum up .. but I have no such word in my language.  "love, hugs, wish you well" are all lame words that do not fill the meaning I feel and have no word to say of.  So..  in silence..  I acknowledge what I cannot say.  And post only to tell you that I have no words.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2009, 06:04:40 pm »
Quote
I don't have anything right on the tip of my fingers,,,
how 'bout trying to get all State Tribes outlawed.

Sometimes Daming Statements are the truth Paul123.  And sometimes the truth hurts. I would support a measure that would outlaw the fakes, but at the same time protect the Legit Historic Tribes that do not have Federal Recognition.  I think that would have to be worked out first so these Tribes were protected and not put in the same catagory as the Frauds and Fakes. 

All of the fake Tribes like the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama, The Cherokees of Georgia Tribal Concil,, Cherokees of Northeast Alabama, etc, would be dealt with seperately.  Any Cheorkee Tribe other then the 3 Federally Recognized Tribes are bogus.   

Quote
I mean do they really think if that happened that those Tribes would go away?

Your right, they're not going away.  But the more the word is put out that these groups are a bunch of Frauds, the more isolated they will become, and it will become harder and harder for them to keep deceiving the public and Federal Agencies into believing that they represent the Cherokee people. The Task Force is already working on this, and from what I hear, they have a lot of upcoming plans in the future.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2009, 07:13:34 pm »

Moma_porcupine said this.
Quote
Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?


Quote
I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?


This is a good question.  There are advantages to having a CDIB card.  For example one would be eligible for Indian Health Services,and certain Indian Housing programs.  They would also have access to scholrships and financial assiatance only availble to enrolled Indians.  But most of them say its not about that.

Then you have the issue of who can and can't carry Eagl Feathers.  If your not a  member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, you can get big fines for having them.  This is a common complaint I hear from many who are not enrolled and claim Indian heritage.  So I'm sure this is part of it at least for some. 

Like I said before, if people are secrue in their idenity, then just be content with who you are.  And if they want to learn about the ways of the Tribe that they claim, then they should go about learning in a humble way.  They also have to consider that they probably won't be accepted overnight in Tribal communities.  It may even take them years to be accepted.  Even enrolled Indians that did not grow up within their Tribal communities that go to visit there face a certain level of distrust. So its going to be twice as hard for people who can't prove their heritage, and can't even give a familiar family name from Tribal rolls.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2009, 10:25:59 pm »

Moma_porcupine said this.
Quote
Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?


Quote
I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?


This is a good question.  There are advantages to having a CDIB card.  For example one would be eligible for Indian Health Services,and certain Indian Housing programs.  They would also have access to scholrships and financial assiatance only availble to enrolled Indians.  But most of them say its not about that.

Then you have the issue of who can and can't carry Eagl Feathers.  If your not a  member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, you can get big fines for having them.  This is a common complaint I hear from many who are not enrolled and claim Indian heritage.  So I'm sure this is part of it at least for some. 

Like I said before, if people are secrue in their idenity, then just be content with who you are.  And if they want to learn about the ways of the Tribe that they claim, then they should go about learning in a humble way.  They also have to consider that they probably won't be accepted overnight in Tribal communities.  It may even take them years to be accepted.  Even enrolled Indians that did not grow up within their Tribal communities that go to visit there face a certain level of distrust. So its going to be twice as hard for people who can't prove their heritage, and can't even give a familiar family name from Tribal rolls.

 I think you have made the best and most fair posts in this thread Blackwolf. I have much respect for you, as I have told you before. A lot of things I see you say on this board are much the same as I was taught in regards to who is NDN or not, regardless if enrolled or not.

 One thing I would like to add that those trying to reconnect should always remember. People are people regardless of what they are. So you have good and bad in all.

 When it comes to things like the issue of BQ, you have people that dislike others based on such things regardless if they are enrolled or not. Maybe so and so dislikes anyone below a certain BQ, or so and so dislikes so and so because they are a full blood, and this person thinks that full bloods think they are better then everyone else. These are actually the type of things I hear people saying all the time. This is usually on top of the whole As the frybread turns drama, which isn't any different then the drama that goes on amongst any group of people.

 So in my opinion not only should these people learn to be secure in themselves, but also realize not everyone is going to like them. It's not going to be any different then if somebody hates on them for their weight, hair color, or looks. It's regular every day human beings doing every day human being stuff.

 I think a lot of the problems in threads like these and conversations like this though is the bad people. It's the exploiters, total frauds with no NDN blood, or people like this one white lady I used to see walk around the powwows here making sure she prayed out loud where everyone could hear her, talking about "hoping Wakana Tanka blessed everyone." Usually it seemed she would blurt this stuff out almost at random for no reason, and she was not mentally ill.

 People like that seem to irritate people so badly, or do so many bad things; people forget that some out there who are not enrolled for whatever reason are not the same as them. Sadly they often get put in the same category because of those other people.

 I think that is why I participate in the conversations like this in the way that I do, and sometimes people mistake what I am saying for me sticking up for the wrong people. I am not defending those who claim some ggggggggggg grandmother they can't even prove existed, but rather those who I do feel need to be defended because I believe them to be who they say they are. Heck their are some people around here whom I don't know if they are NDN or not as they claim, or have any kind of proof. I just know that everyone else accepts them and so I do to. It isn't my place to be questioning them anyways, nor do I care to.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2009, 10:34:03 pm »
Thought this article might be good to put in here for discussion



Indian Country Today

Print this article
Identity trends should be addressed with respect, openness

Originally printed at http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/opinion/28649084.html

For most American Indians, contemporary indigenous identity is tied to their membership or enrollment in a tribal community and whether they have ties to that community, engage in its culture and ceremonies, are considered part of the community, and have relatives living there. Indigenous people maintain that their tribal communities have rights to self-government from time immemorial and which precede the formation of the United States. One main difference between ethnic identity and tribal or indigenous identity is that tribal people belong to a community with specific culture and territory, and exercise certain sovereignty. Ethnic groups may identify with a certain culture or history, but do not claim rights to self-government.

There are several million people in the United States who might be described as “ethnic” Indians. They are people who identify as an Indian person, but do not have direct connection to a specific Indian community or do not have communication with or even know their ancestral Native community. Ethnic identity is one way in which people have adapted to the cultural and human diversity of the contemporary world.

We need to confront the world not by changing our beliefs, but by finding ways to preserve our cultural identities and beliefs while creatively facing contemporary challenges.

One can argue, though, that an interpretation of the world that addresses ethnic identity but does not conceptualize tribal or indigenous identity does a disservice to tribal communities and indigenous identity. The problem here is not that ethnic identities are wrong or undesirable, but rather that ethnic and indigenous identities need to understand and respect each other. Unfortunately, ethnic identities tend to overlook indigenous identities by not recognizing indigenous land, self-government, and sovereignty issues. In this way, ethnic and indigenous identities currently are not entirely compatible, often leading to misunderstandings and conflict between the two points of view. Most likely, indigenous and ethnic identities will continue to struggle, and many indigenous peoples will likely feel oppressed by a point of view that many people believe is a progressive movement.

While there is much cultural diversity among Indian nations, tribal membership is increasingly based on fundamentally racial or ethnic criteria. These policies are, for the most part, devoid of indigenous cultural content. This may be the trend of the future, but it raises issues that should be openly discussed and considered in developing the future strategies of indigenous communities.

The more ethnic identities and nationalities supplant indigenous points of view, the greater the probability that indigenous peoples will lose their rationale for defending their rights to land, language, and self-determination. We need to confront the world not by changing our beliefs, but by finding ways to preserve our cultural identities and beliefs while creatively facing contemporary challenges. We need to preserve indigenous nations in ways that empower us, supports economic sustainability, preserves and upholds culture, and protects tribal self-government.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2009, 12:27:38 am »
One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2009, 12:54:30 am »
 Rattlebone said

Quote
I think you have made the best and most fair posts in this thread Blackwolf. I have much respect for you, as I have told you before. A lot of things I see you say on this board are much the same as I was taught in regards to who is NDN or not, regardless if enrolled or not.


Thanks Rattlebone.  I do always try to look at both sides of the issue and think it is unfair to just put all unenrolled people in a catagory.  This issue is not black and white.  For me its more of a grey issue.  On one side you have people who accept everyone with a vague story of Cherokee ancestry. I don't agree with this. The first part of this thread deals with that.  Moma_porcupine also gave some supporting evidence for that.

And then on the other hand you have people that don't accept anyone without a card.  I don't agree with this either.  I just try to make sense of it all by using common sense.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2009, 12:55:46 am »
Quote
Posted by: Paul123 


One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.
 




Paul would you agree that the obvious fakes should not be able to clog up the system and delay the process for Tribes with obvious legit claims?

I know the process isn't perfect, but what exactly would you change about the process?

http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2009, 01:18:30 am »
Quote
Posted by: Paul123  


One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.
 




Paul would you agree that the obvious fakes should not be able to clog up the system and delay the process for Tribes with obvious legit claims?

I know the process isn't perfect, but what exactly would you change about the process?

http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf

I'm no lawyer or politician so I would never be able to sort out all of the stuff on the link that you provided or the stuff in the H.R.3690 either but...

I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help. I know the difference between justly recognizing a Tribe and making it nearly imposable so that the Fed. Gov. doesn't have to cough up any more money.

I have heard some say that these fake tribes are clogging up the system so that the real tribes can't get through. True that but,,,  I also know that some of the Fed Tribes intentionally clog up the system too. so that they don't have to worry about the pie being sliced thinner.


It's all about the money honey.. and it always has been and always will be. if it weren't for the money thing I dare say that this very thread wouldn't have been needed.  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 06:42:15 pm by Paul123 »

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2009, 01:51:22 am »
I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help. I know the difference between justly recognizing a Tribe and making it nearly imposable so that the Fed. Gov. doesn't have to caught up any more money.

Sometimes its not coughing up money, but simply continued taking of land.

I suppose a lot of this will depend on new appointees by Obama and new hires in the Department of Interior.

Also, in the cases of some frauds, it's going to be new hires in the Department of Justice.

I greatly enjoyed reading people from the recognized tribes asking Obama about making it easier to set up "land trusts" which would allow people to move back to ancestral lands.




Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2009, 02:44:53 am »
Quote
I'm no lawyer or politician so I would never be able to sort out all of the stuff on the link that you provided or the stuff in the H.R.3690 either but...



I'm no lawyer either Paul, but some of the key points here are necasary.  I'm not saying its perfect, and I'm not saying some Tribes were unfairly denied but there DOES have to be some standard.


Existence as an Indian tribe on a continuous basis since 1900.

Existence predominantly as a community. This may be established by
geographical residence of 50% of the group; marriage patterns; kinship
and language patterns; cultural patterns; and social or religious patterns.
Political influence or authority over members as an autonomous entity
from historical times until the present.
Evidence that the membership descends from an historical tribe or tribes
that combined and functioned together as a political entity. This may be
established by tribal rolls, federal or state records, church or school
records, affidavits of leaders and members, and other records.