NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: William_Graywolf on July 12, 2006, 01:49:48 am
-
Ok. I'm concerned. This group is asking for a copy of a person's BIRTH CERTIFICATE. The website says passport, but when you download the application, they ask for your BIRTH CERTIFICATE.
http://www.theupcn.com/files/PDF_Member_Application.pdf
http://www.theupcn.com/index.html
Worse, I didn't see the real name of this "Chief Speaks with Spirits" name. Someone did tell me HER name is Angelia Rose. The group was contacted about their website posting that they asked for Birth Certificates and they did take that down.
Don't people realize that a person who has your birth certificate can gather information about you? Your birth certificate can be sold and someone can easily steal your identity with it.
What sets up alarm bells for me is why this "Chief" doesn't use her real name on her website? Why conceal who she is? I wouldn't want to send in my Birth Certificate to someone I don't even have a name for.
The application also asks for a donation of $25 for membership. MONEY always talks and gets people fake cards that aren't worth the paper they're written on.
I'm curious as to what anyone else knows or thinks of this one.
William
-
- removed by author -
-
The UPCN does some amzingly similar things to the UCN. Both have the same would be "clan"=state organization setup. I wonder if they aren't simply yet another bunch trying to set themselves up as head of all the PODIAs.
All the requests for information have me wondering as well.
If you look at the list of "chiefs" the only one using his real name seems to be Rice Lareaux. His name shows up on a historical reenactors board asking for hunting information.
Also notice Joe Bear Warrior's email, boricuawarrior. Obviously Puerto Rican, no idea how he claims to be Cherokee.
The store only sells their IDs and asks for donations.
Also notice this from their site:
"I also have the privilege of knowing some fine people who have a
red heart and even though they do not actually have Cherokee blood in their
veins, their hearts are pure and sincere. They have a deep desire to keep
the Cherokee ways alive and thriving and we welcome those people as well."
In other words, whites playing NDN, come on in, we'll take your money.
And this:
"Even our own people sometimes put us down because they say unless your ancestors walked on the Trail of Tears, then you aren’t as good. I ask you, does a Jew say to another Jew that unless your ancestors were in a concentration camp, then you do not have the right to claim your Jewish heritage?"
Actually many Jews say you are NOT Jewish unless your Jewish ancestry comes from the mother's side.
THis does seem to be a very recent group, note that the counter for the site only shows 200 visitors.
-
Have been doing some research on this bunch. I agree this certainly looks like an identity scam. Asking for all this info., esp. the birth certificate, will give them all rights to your indenity, esp. with asking eye color ect..
Principal Chief Speaks with spirits; the phone number doen't exsist. I called this morning and it said ,"no longer in service". The address is a business address in Chillicothe,OH.
Following Clan Listings, which once again is an internet "Tribe".
Chief Richard Whitehorse AKA, Kandy Cook, Cameden, IN, not Delphi, IN.
"Chief of" ILL,IN,MI,WI,KY.
Chief Audie Siverfox: Unable to find name, PH# doesn't exsist. Address is a business. "Chief" of MD
Chief Joel Wiseowl; AKA, Donna Nichols, all information given is correct."Chief" N.C..
Chief Edmond GrayHorse; AKA, Edmond Nichols, all information correct. "Chief" OH.
Chief Joebear; AKA, Joe Gonzales, all information correct. "Chief" CA.
Chief Rice Lareaux; AKA, Ken Dodson, Krickett Dodson(listed at same address). "Chief" TX,ARK,MS,OK.
Chief Wren Usti Alitamu; Phone# does not exsist, Lives in Grant Pass, Oregon, NOT Wolf Creek, OR. "Chief" Washington,OR..
A lot of wrongly stated info.. The way these clans are set up is not Cherokee, I find many things phoney here.
Wado Weheli
-
I have read through this and would like to respond. First off some of you have made some mistakes in your research. For example Wren has a place in Grants Pass and in Wolf Creek so you are half correct there. As for the birth certificate it has been stated that anything that you feel could be insecure blacken it out. All they want to see on the copy of the birth certificate or drivers license is your name. You can cross everything else out. I am Joe Bear Warrior Gonzales. Now someone said that my e-mail address is boricuawarrior@yahoo.com. Obviously a Puerto Rican so how can he claim to be Cherokee. Yes you are right I am half Puerto Rican and very proud of it. Okay now that you know that I am half Puerto Rican let me let you in on a secret. I am half Cherokee and very proud of that too so yes I have every right to claim to be Cherokee. The United People of the Cherokee Nation is not a scam group. I am very proud to be a part of it. We are trying to unite our people together and I do not understand how that is a scam. If you can explain that to me please explain that to me. My e-mail address is on the 6th line of this post. As for Chief Speaks with Spirits. Her name is Angie Rose and she lives in Ohio. I live in California. As for educateindians reply I personally take it offensive for you to say that we are whites playing indians. You do not know us so why do you make comments like this. Well thank you for listening. If any of you would like to talk with me directly you can contact me at boricuawarrior@yahoo.com. I will answer any questions that you may have.
Bear Warrior
-
Read what I said again, Joe. I said you were a group *taking money from whites who play NDN*. And your own group's website admits to doing that.
For the most part I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind.
You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.
The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans".
-
I have a question for you brother. Are you Cherokee? If so why do you use Lakota words? Just wondering but then since you are so educated you already know this. You are making assumptions brother that you do not know the facts of. If you look at the site it says something to the effect that the 25.00 goes to help with the printing but it is not mandatory. I am paraphrasing of course but this is the message so if you are Cherokee and would like to become a part of UPCN keep your money. We are not out to steal someones culture nor are we trying to fleece people's money. To be honest I myself am planning to publish a book and use the money to help build UPCN. No one has asked me to do this. I am doing it because I know what UPCN is about and what we are planning to do. In fact we are trying to help and not hurt others. So I ask are you Lakota? If not then why are you using Lakota terminology? I understand that you are Mexican and Apache. Am I correct? Why not learn of your Mexican and Apache ways and use the words that they use. My fiance is Apache and Mexican as well so I have no qualms with you. I only want to try to get you to understand that in many ways we are our own worst enemy. We are as I stated before trying to help others and not hurt others. I hope that you are trying to do the same brother.
Bear Warrior
-
You really haven't been around other NDNs that much, have you? If so, you'd know people from practically every nation say wasichu, just like many also say aho, no matter the tribe. Or hasn't your fiancee clued you into this? Perhaps she's never been around many except for you and her family. My experience dealing with the people in these would be tribes is they tend to be made up of people whose experience has been being the only NDN in the area they live in.
So not having ever been in a situation where most of the people around you are NDN, you make assumptions and do things more like a boy scout troup who play at being NDN than any actual organization of Native people. Like some of you calling yourself "chief" when you haven't earned the right. Gotta have that title to impress the even less knowledgeable, right? Couldn't call yourself president of the Cherokee Heritage Assn of Idaho or Washington or Maryland, could you?
So your leaders have just gotta be "Chief of the Would Be Tribe of Cherokees Separated From Their Heritage Who Don't Realize They Look Foolish and Disrespectful" instead.
Think of it this way: If you wanted to form a Puerto Rican heritage group (or I or your fiancee formed a Mexican heritage group), we'd call it that, wouldn't we? We wouldn't call ourselves "The Puerto Rican (or Mexican) Nation" and call ourselves Aztec or Mayan emperors or Taino caciques. THAT is just how pretentious and ridiculous your group looks.
And no legit heritage group asks for passports or birth certificates. Period. Doesn't matter if part of the information is sent blacked out, they can still be used for less than ethical purposes. Sheesh, your pride (and I mean personal pride, not cultural) is getting in the way of common sense.
-
I am not going to sit here and argue with you brother. To answer your question I have been around Native Americans all of my life. But that is neither here or there. The reason that I ask is because not all Indians use the term wasichu (spelling may be wrong). I use the word Yonega or Unega myself but that too is neither neither here or there. I just trip out that their are so many people that want to sit in judgement of others. Yes I am proud both personal and cultural. I will not lie about that. Why should I? I am a very proud person. By the way I did not title myself chief. Again that is not important. Like I said I will not sit here and argue. I have much more important things to do. I only tried to clear up a few things and then you all of a sudden get all defensive. I tell you what I ask that you pray for me and I will pray for you and hopefully one day we will be able to join forces and bring unity to our people while helping them overcome poverty, depression, alcoholism and all of the other things that we lead the nation in. One day brother we may find ourselves standing side by side fighting against these things instead of against each other.
Bear Warrior
-
"I am not going to sit here and argue with you brother."
What arguing? We were just talking.
"To answer your question I have been around Native Americans all of my life."
Ok, now I think you're not being truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the one to say NA.
"I just trip out that their are so many people that want to sit in judgement of others."
Oboy. There you go using the word judgement to mean "using your brain", the exact same way Nuagers use the term.
"Yes I am proud both personal and cultural. I will not lie about that. Why should I? I am a very proud person."
You miss the point. Your personal pride won't let you admit to being wrong.
"By the way I did not title myself chief. Again that is not important."
:o :o :o
Since when?
"you all of a sudden get all defensive."
Look up the word "projection" in a psychology book.
"I tell you what I ask that you pray for me and I will pray for you and hopefully one day we will be able to join forces and bring unity to our people while helping them overcome poverty, depression, alcoholism and all of the other things that we lead the nation in. One day brother we may find ourselves standing side by side fighting against these things."
You still don't get it. Learning false ways such as what your group teaches that resemble a boy scout troup more than any Cherokee tradition *is part of what causes* that depression, alcoholism, etc.
When people have a false image of NDNs, it makes it that much harder for them to see us as we actually are.
You still won't answer the main point, and that is because you know you're wrong. A tribe is a nation, and you can't just try to invent one on your own without weakening the nation already here. It's disrespectful and divisive.
You know it'd be wrong for you to up and declare yourself Chief of Your Own Bunch of Puerto Ricans. It's just as wrong to do for NDNs, "brother."
-
Now you want to play semantics. Pretty good brother. You say that I am not being truthful because I would have said Indian. Whites tend to use the term Native American. That is pretty funny brother but not very true. I know a lot of people full bloods who were born and raised on the rez. who refuse to call themself Indians. Why? I asked and they refuse to be called something that Columbus called them before killing them and that makes sense. Me I use Native American and Indian interchangeably.
Ask people that know me and they will tell you that the only thing that I call myself is a warrior. Need credentials. I fought on the battlefield. Being a war veteran qualifies me to call myself a warrior. Now back to the chief. You do not hear me calling myself chief although I was appointed chief.
Like I said earlier I will pray for you and I do hope that you pray for me brother. As a matter of fact why don't you pray for UPCN that Creator will teach us the right path since according to you we are out in left field. That is that Native American I mean Indian way isn't it brother?
Bear Warrior
[Al's note: Joe's childish insults were edited out.]
-
Okay I see how you guys play. You can call me a washischu and a liar and that is not childish insults. I did not insult you. I just confronted you but now I am throwing childish insults. We are through. I do not need to be accompanied by people like you. I will pray for you and that is all I have to say.
Bear Warrior
[Al's note: More of Joe's childish insults were deleted.]
-
Learn how to read Joe. I said your *actions* were wasichu, and I *asked* if you were being truthful.
We can all see your style. Huff and puff with a show of offended dignity to try and change the subject, and refuse to answer when asked if you're doing wrong.
-
I guess I am confused here as to the last few posts. While I do not agree with the UPCN ,I do think we should treat all people as HUMAN BEINGS. I am interested in what Bear Warrior has to say about this group for that is how we gain insight into things.
I personally did not see anything that needed to be deleted in the first post that was edited. Questions were being asked by both, and by deleting, much is left to ones imagination. As to the last post by Bear Warrior I did not note any deletion. I know Al this is not my forum, but I am just expressing my opinion here.
There is so much distention among all the Native Americans and the tribes, enrolled and non enrolled, state enrolled vs Federal enrolled even to the point that an article in indian.com, a statement was made that if you are not a Federal enrolled Cherokee, you are not Cherokee at all;
http://thunder-fox.com/mcclure.htm
You have within Tribes, Bands ect. the issue of you are not dark enough, you are to white so you aren't as much Indian as me ,and yes those with thier cards running around acting superior to those who are not federaly enrolled as though having a card makes them more "Indian". A gerat majority of those enrolled both state and federal do not know thier language or traditions, I have talked with them. They do not even know about thier heritage.
I for one am tired of all these things, our ancestors never ment for this to be. I am Cherokee and I have never used the word "wasichu", and lets not forget that great debate of what are we to be called, Indian, Native American, American Indians, First People? Personaly I call myself Cherokee and I could give a care about that almighty, coveted blue or white card to tell me who I am. It is in my heart, I know my ancestors and traditions and I practice them.
I think this alpha male or female is simply a pis... match. All of our rights are been taking slowly away everyday and I will put on my Warrior Armour and prepare to fight for my constitutional rights. One being the right to free speech, whether I like what is being said or not, one still has that right.
Thanks for allowing me to share my opinions. Walking-soft :)
-
The only thing I took out of Joe's comments were personal attacks that had nothing to do with the topic. Obviously to repeat them would defeat the whole purpose. Notice I still left up all the criticism having to do with the topic. If he wants to get personal with me, let him take it to IMs or email.
Even then it's pretty obvious Joe is doing all he can to change the subject. He knows, his girlfriend knows, and I know it would be wrong to run around calling yourself Chief of This Part of the Puerto Rican or Mexican Nation. But sadly I've seen my share of Latinos who are NDN mixedbloods as well who think cultural appropriation is OK when done by Latinos. You had Mexican students at the Univ of San Diego who though Monty the Aztec mascot was just fine for their sports team. And some Mexican students falling for people like Tlakael who teach that Atlantis is part of Aztec tradition. Joe is not much different.
-
Now I am really confused. ??? Please correct me if I am wrong. Is this forum suppose to be about fake medicine and spiritual people that duke people out of their money for self serving purposes? I only have a list of people of the UPCN that are listed as "chiefs" according to websters...chief: The person of the highest rank. A chieftain is one who is head of a group, clan or tribe.
And why in your earlier post " ok, now I think you're not be truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the ones to say NA". When you google to the site here and read about who Nafps it states in the last paragraph you will read the term "native" is used. This is the reason I am confused.
I don't see where a group of people that use the term chief( isn't the president of the united states called "chief"?)
I don't understand why it is ok for churches to ask for donations or as some say tithes, organizations whether it be a country club, school pto's, even the Nafps here asking for donations, yet say the UPCN because they use the term chief makes them any more guilty than any other organization? I haven't read anywhere yet that they are running ceremonies and charging people money.
This is only a observation, any response would be appreciated :)
-
"Is this forum suppose to be about fake medicine and spiritual people that duke people out of their money for self serving purposes?"
Yes, but people routinely have questions about groups claiming to be "tribes" like UPCN.
" I only have a list of people of the UPCN that are listed as "chiefs" according to websters...chief: The person of the highest rank. A chieftain is one who is head of a group, clan or tribe."
Joe claims to be "chief" of a "tribe" of that isn't a tribe at all. And according to him, how he got the title is not important.
I'll let the Cherokees here talk about how Cherokees chose their chiefs. For many nations, a chief is a title with no power but much respect. For some others it's only someone who counsels, again with no authority other than people willing to listen.
The UPCN, best I can tell, doesn't follow that. They're "chiefs" much along the lines the Boy Scouts have.
"When you google to the site here and read about who Nafps it states in the last paragraph you will read the term "native" is used."
I use Native and NDN interchangably. I was just observing that literally every person I've ever met who said "Native American" was white.
"I don't see where a group of people that use the term chief( isn't the president of the united states called "chief"?)"
In the song Hail to the Chief, yes. Or Commander in Chief. Or Mr. President.
"I don't understand why it is ok for churches to ask for donations or as some say tithes,"
Christian churches have different traditions from Native ones.
"organizations whether it be a country club,"
If the UPCN wanted to call itself a club, that'd actually be much more honest, because that's what they are.
"even the Nafps here asking for donations"
Enough to pay the server, no more. The UPCN has a membership fee.
"I haven't read anywhere yet that they are running ceremonies and charging people money."
That's part of why they're still under Research Needed.
Also notice they allow whites who want to play NDN into their "tribe."
"This is only a observation, any response would be appreciated."
Sure, no problem. Let me ask, how do you think we should have talked about them? It seems to me that you also wanted to bring up some other more general issues, like the enrolled/unenrolled divide. Remember I'm not enrolled either, but I would never call myself "Apache Chief of Band X."
-
Weheli / walking-soft , what Al is saying in this thread makes sense to me , but , I am not sure where you stand on this. Maybe I am just not understanding how you see this ?
I kind of agree about the editing . It gives the impression maybe the person who was edited said something so intellegent and irrefutable , the only way to win the arguement was to edit what they said . Having got to read many posts before and after editing ,I now realize it is usually the really beside the point rants that get edited . Assuming it is not unreasonably long , personal attacks generally say more about the person who makes the attack than the person attacked , but when it is edited , no one knows what was said .
It might be helpful if you ( walking-soft who also posts under the user name Weheli) could go to the thread about questionable tribes, and explain what it is about newly formed Cherokee tribes you see as creating problems.
That other thread is here ;
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0)
You have many times expressed your concerns about fake tribes in this forum ,and I am not clear what it is about these new tribes that concern you . ?
Earlier in this same thread , in Reply #3 , posting as Weheli , you said ;
"Have been doing some research on this bunch. I agree this certainly looks like an identity scam. Asking for all this info., esp. the birth certificate, will give them all rights to your indenity, esp. with asking eye color ect.."
"A lot of wrongly stated info.. The way these clans are set up is not Cherokee, I find many things phoney here."
Now , posting under your other user name walking-soft , you seem to be suggesting NAFPS shouldn't be concerned about newly reconstituted tribes with Chiefs . What changed ?
Then, yesterday , again posting as Weheli
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=935.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=935.0)
Re: Yet More Groups Claiming to Be Cherokee Tribes
Reply #3 Weheli
'WHY DO THEY INSIST on calling themselves TRIBES?"
How are the newly formed Cherokee tribes that you consider phoney different , from ones you seem willing to accept as newly formed tribes providing a needed service for unenrolled Indian people ? It is a complicated and confusing subject .
In my opinion , if people are warned about getting involved with a born again Indian tribe , there needs to be a good reason why this warning is given , the reasons need to be clearly explained . People need to understand these reasons are based in fair and consistant principals . If in one post, people suggest a tribe is a bunch of phoney wannabes , and then in another post the same people defend the same behavior as benevolant , the inconsistancy of these concerns, just comes across as unprincipaled harrassment , and sabatoges the whole point of trying to educate people about these issues .
I hope you will clarify your position .
-
I perceive many of these "tribes", Clans or what ever to be a problem. They teach false Traditions, they solicit monies. Many are 501(c)3's which make them eligable for Grant monies. I have had one person tell me that all they have to say is it is for Education and they get monies. Several of these groups have been caught in scams by misusing Grant monies. What happen's to the money? Do they donate it to Haskell, or to the CNO, Eastern Band, or any other Tribal Council for educational purposes? Bet not. To me, it is monies legimate Natiions could use and it's sorta like paying people to do research on how fast ketchup will move in 5 minutes. If they are just clubs, which most are, or heritage groups, these seem to be mostly social. And as long as they don't cross the fine line of misrepresentation or exploitation they are generally not a problem. frederica
-
M.P.
My last post, if you reread it again, is not a question of what I believe the UPCN is. I was asking questions concerning the post between Al and Bear Warrior.
It has to do with the "political correctness" of what was said.
Somethings that were stated if read by new people coming into the group, might lead them to believe that there are two standards in here.
That is my point, no more no less. You ask me why I am concerned with these newly formed tribes? Anyone who cares about the culture would be concerned.
Does it not bother you what is out there?
Being here in this group should answer your question of where I stand. :)
-
I agree with you Frederica but I have heard from a few sources in Kentucky about the amounts of money some of these groups receive. The largest amount one group received (from another group actually) was $500. Nobody will get rich on that. Kentucky seems to be fertile soil for growing blue grass and Cherokees.
Joseph
-
I think that right Joseph. I have heard of $1000 every year. Most of the large ones I have heard of are in Ark., they pulled in over ten grand on a one time thing. One of their "Chiefs" made more that Chad Smith. They really have to be caught in some illegal activity. That only happens every once in a while. All you can really do is educate unsupecting people about these groups. frederica
-
I agree with you Frederica, with that kind of money going around its a different story. Sometimes these folks can be busted on unrelated things such as Eagle and animal parts. Depending on what is on their state DNR endangered and threatened list. Like here in Maryland you can't have bear parts (or at least you can't sell them) but in Pennsylvania you can.
Anyway, besides that most people, like Al Capone of yesteryear, usually get caught on some tax law, that is of course if they are being investigated. I know from personal experience that if you try to report someone to the IRS the IRS will also investigate you.
Joseph
-
Joseph, That's a very good idea. I bet there is a lot of little Al out there. Since they are not State or Federal Nations or Tribes. Probably about 50% sell crafts. And as non-profit Corporation they must have a accountant of sorts I wonder how much of the profits from these sales are kicked back to the Corporation Tribe, and how much is pocketed by the non-exempt individual. Thanks. frederica
-
Speaking of crafts and catching frauds...How likely is it to be enforced if you turn a group in for violating the Indian Arts & Crafts Act?
Will they give people a warning first? And eventually go after them?
I know a lot of the wannabe groups in my area sell crafts, and they put the terms "Cherokee," "Shawnee," "Indian," etc. on them illegally. (I think there is a labeling exception where you can say you are "Descended" if descended but unenrolled, but these people usually do not say descended...they just say "Cherokee" or "Shawnee," etc. Sometimes they even give the name of their unrecognized tribe as to legitimize the work. I think the legitimate unrecognized groups in my area, like the Miami of Indiana, are largely legally savvy enough to say "Miami descended" rather than Miami, much as it must chafe.)
It would be handy to sic the DOI on the "Cherokee" kooks, if it might do any good in de-legitimizing them and keeping them from snaring more unwitting people.
-
As far as I know they are suppose to put "Indian-Style" on the craft if they are not a member of either a Federal or State Recognized Nation or Tribe. What to do go to http://www.indigenous-art.com/laws.html If you are buying at some of these Powwows you may have problems, If you buy from a dealer or trader it may be easier to take back. One of the problems I have seen is that the Commission in Santa Fe does not have enough investigators to follow up all over the country. frederica
-
I don't buy at their pow-wows personally, but was thinking of the idea as a way to take the wind out of the sails of some of these groups...especially with some of them trying to get on the commission in Indiana (and some of them already being on it) at the expense of the very few legitimate tribes in the state.
-
The most famous case of someone busted on selling crafts illegally was Ward Churchill. I think they fined him, but more importantly it's always been something people could point to that tells people right away he has no ethics.
-
I believe the law was put into existance because of the Bell Corp. and the like. They were making and Stuckey's was selling in the Southwest. Indians were used to operate the machines, so they were calling it "Indian Made" The tourist were buying as it was cheap. Then came the imports. China, Italy, Taiwan. Wholesalers like Crazy Crow have to label them as they are, (Imports). What can be accomplished is that make sure the PowWow follows the Arts and Craft Laws and advertizes the same. There are some that even check enrollment cards before they admit the vendors. Check with the PowWow organizer and see if that is what they do. If they don't find out why not. I see many vendors with sign now that state, "all items are not NDN made". But you have to ask to find out. frederica
-
As far as I know there is enforcment of the law. It may protect some but it hurts many others, such as Cherokee artist and activist Jimmie Durham, who now cannot be considered an Indian artist. When this act was first going around, being thought up that is, they wanted to apply it to the performing arts too. Something like only Indians could play Indians but then many voiced opposition and it was not included.
Anyway, just invite the DNR to one of the powwows and let them stroll around awhile.
-
There was a white guy, locally, who was seling "authentic Indian carvings" that he made. He said his were authentic because he was making exact replicas of things. As opposed to people like my husband who were doing new styles with old designs I guess. Anyway, my husband reported him to the FBI under the Arts and Crafts act. What he was doing was fraud. Shortly after that, his resume changed to say he made "authentic STYLE art." Not as many people wanted to buy hs stuff after that and he moved on. He was never fined or anything, but I guess the threat was enough to make him back off.
-
Needs more Caffeine, Maybe you should contact Albert of Indiana AIM. He could tell you what has been accomplished, and what still needs to be accomplished. Plus, he is well aware of all that goes on in Indiana. Just a suggestion. Many times it's easier to have some direction that going it alone. frederica
-
Frederica,
Thanks for the info. I'm heavily involved in other American Indian groups focused on higher education issues, some at a statewide level, but I had never heard that there was an Indiana AIM and am surprised, since I would think we would run into one another at some of the statewide events.
Anyway, I've found their web page now and will be in touch.
-
I find it quite interesting the comments posted about The United People of the Cherokee Nation.
First of all, the Great Spirit is the only One who can decide who is "Cherokee" and who is not. Of the 250,000 members of the Oklahoma Tribe, only a handful are full-blood and several thousand are between 1/16 to 1/4. The majority are 1/32 or less. Why is this the case? I'll tell you. If the Cherokee Tribe of Oklahoma put an emphasis on blood quantum, they would have no members! The Eastern Cherokee Tribe does have a minimum blood quantum...1/16 if I'm not mistaken.
Okay, I became a member of The United People of the Cherokee Nation. I have never paid any money to them. I have never been asked to buy or pay anything. If I wish, I can send a donation, but as of this date, I have not done that.
As for the birth certificate, you can blacken out all but your name if you wish. They only need to see a legal document to prove your name, because they register you as a member. This is no different than what any other tribe, federally recognized or not, requires of tribal members. Just what do you people think are the requirements of becoming a member of the Cherokee Tribe of Oklahoma? Besides having a ancestor on the Dawes Roll, do you not have to PROVE your descent from said ancestor. Is not some of those proofs your birth certificate, death certificate, etc...
No, I don't really see the point in this discussion here. [Childish insult]
By the way, I'm 1/16 Cherokee and consider myself Cherokee and a Native American as well. Native American, the way I use the term, means I'm mixed-blood. In fact, I have Choctaw, Blackfoot, and Sioux running through my veins as well. I'm also English, French, and German, with a wee bit of Irish too.
A true Cherokee should never sadden the Great Spirit with [childish insult]. Even if they are mostly white or even if they are "wannabes". So what! We Cherokees are a peaceful tribe and certainly [childish insult]. We should feel honored that others want to follow the ways.
That's all I have to say to this. Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion.
Blue Wolf
-
Sorry to be late to the party here. I would, like to interject some more information into this thread. I have emailed back and forth with Chief Speaks with Spirit regarding their group. I spoke with her directly since I had questions about the group. I found out that the group was a split off from another group whose leader, it turned out, was really a Mormon. He was collecting money from people and not sending out cards. He was using the money for his own purposes and not the good of the group. Chief Speaks with Spirits and others split off to start their own group. Their hope was to give a home for those Cherokee who were turned away by their own. I personally have heard stories from people who were trying to reconnect but were rudely turned away. Their intention is to eventually grow the group to be something like the NAACP or something like that where they will be able to help their own with scholarships, language immersion programs, etc. The use of the "Chiefs" is more to signify the leaders of a given area. They are Cherokee so they use Chief. Maybe to escape all of this scrutiny, it would have been better to use Team Leader or such. While they do allow whites to join with the group, it is in an associate capacity with no voting rights. Believe it or not, there are many whites who are not "plastic shaman" or "new agers" who are very interested in the culture and wisdom of the indigenous cultures. (I say indigenous only to avoid having to have said Native American and tagged wasichu, or saying Indian and being jumped on.) The sad part is that from what I have read and heard, in the past if a white wished to belong they would learn the ways and after a time there would be a ceremony from which point they would always be a member. Of course these days, John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders. For those of you who don't know Will Thomas:
Will Thomas figures prominently in Cherokee history as one of the most important forces in the establishment of a Cherokee homeland at Qualla Boundary. As the first and only white man to serve as a Cherokee chief, he was uniquely qualified to represent the Eastern Band at a time when Indians were forbidden to own land. Later as a state senator, Thomas lobbied in Raleigh for Cherokee interests. He is described as “the best friend the Cherokees ever had??? on a monument dedicated to him near the Qualla Boundary.
As I post articles each day on my groups, I learn a little more. I have become saddened at the increasing rate that Nations are unenrolling people. I wrote an article and even sent a warning to the local Wampanoag tribe that sought to follow in the path of two of the other Wampanoag tribes in Mass. Be wary of blood quantum and think seven generations and what it will mean to them. Yes, I care, and yes, I am white.
Now as to Joe Bear Warrior, I have known Joe for a long time. He has a heart of gold. He works in a homeless shelter providing help for the less fortunate. He has reached out to many Native brothers and sisters who have entered the shelter. He took time to try to teach a young troubled Cherokee girl about her heritage and give her hope. Maybe the anger you saw was the frustration coming from a man with a heart the size of Alaska. He moderates groups on Yahoo and seeks to teach as best he can. He started the Prayer Warrior Society to gather people together to bring prayers for those in need. Maybe he isn't pure blood, maybe he doesn't have everything just right, but at least he is trying to make a difference. He does not judge people, he cares and he shares. When I was going through a difficult time, he called me on the phone to be sure I was okay and wanted to help. He is always reaching out and always trying to be the peacemaker. Injustice roils his blood and maybe that is what he felt was an attack on a group he feels could help many disenfranchised Cherokee people.
We should be striving to bring people together, all people, not alienating people. I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together in a common cause of surviving.
I saw someone also question "Chief" Usti Alitima, and I will speak also for her. She is someone who also is of good heart. She is always sending gifts of her art and sage sticks that she has hand made to people. When people are sick she sends them healing herbs with instructions in their use. She has never taken a thing from anyone, nor asks. Her "Christian" name is Susan Lake. She does live in Oregon and had my wife given her a little more advanced notice when she went out there on business, would have given her a personal tour of the area.
I think it is good that this forum is here but I caution the witch hunt mentality. Maybe contacting UPCN with your concerns and maybe suggestions on how they could better present themselves so as not to offend pure bloods. I am not a member of UPCN, but that is of my own choice. I was asked to join, but I have to walk my own path.
My heart to your heart, one heart, one spirit.
-
For the most part, I don't see anything that refutes what I earlier said about your group:
"I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind.
You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.
The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans."
But some of what I said I was glad you had enough courage to be honest about the wrongness some leaders were doing:
"I have emailed back and forth with Chief Speaks with Spirit regarding their group. I spoke with her directly since I had questions about the group. I found out that the group was a split off from another group whose leader, it turned out, was really a Mormon. He was collecting money from people and not sending out cards. He was using the money for his own purposes and not the good of the group. Chief Speaks with Spirits and others split off to start their own group. Their hope was to give a home for those Cherokee who were turned away by their own. I personally have heard stories from people who were trying to reconnect but were rudely turned away."
Could you tell us this leader's actual name was?
This next part, though, had a bit of persecution complex common to many PODIAs:
"John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders."
Are you kidding? There are probably more mixedblood leaders elected to office than fullbloods. Certainly that was true immediately after the IRA govts were first set up. Nearly all of that first wave of IRA govts were mixedblood led.
And plenty of non-NDNs are respected for their help to NDNs.
I think most of us, and most NDNs in general, would agree with your point about the disenrollment happening in some tribal nations. Where we strongly disagree is that a group passing itself off as a "tribe" is the solution.
Some of what you believe shows Nuage influence whether you realize it or not:
"I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together"
I can almost hear "Kum Bay Yah" being sung in the background.
Many of those prophecies you read are false, Nuage distortions. The Mayan calendar just ends in 2012. It doesn't predict disaster. In fact it doesn't say anything. It was just a randomly chosen point to end at.
And the sun going "solar maximum?
-
Roughly speaking, "solar maximum" means a peak in magnetic-field distortions at or near the sun's surface and the corresponding increase in the intensity of the "solar wind": charged particles coming our way. These distort the earth's magnetic field and are responsible for the auroras. At solar maximum, the earth's magnetic field is more distorted than normal and so the auroras are visible further from the earth's poles. Intense solar maxima can disrupt communications and power systems on earth. This has been happening roughly every eleven years for a very long time.
There are any number of natural cycles, particularly astronomical ones; it's not difficult to pick a cyclical event happening in the same year as some wacky prediction and then claim that "science" backs it up. What science actually says (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/solar_max_020123.htm) about the solar cycle is far more interesting, and awe-inspiring, than even the fevered imaginings of José Arguelles, the loon who kicked off all the babbling about 2012. There is also disagreement among solar physicists: The US National Center for Atmospheric Research predicts (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm) that the next maximum will be particularly intense, though another group (http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000098000013131103000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=Yes) of physicists predict that it will be about a third weaker than the last in 2000-2001, which made the aurora visible as far south as Texas.
-
As far as I know they are suppose to put "Indian-Style" on the craft if they are not a member of either a Federal or State Recognized Nation or Tribe. What to do go to http://www.indigenous-art.com/laws.html If you are buying at some of these Powwows you may have problems, If you buy from a dealer or trader it may be easier to take back. One of the problems I have seen is that the Commission in Santa Fe does not have enough investigators to follow up all over the country. frederica
http://www.sherrontruaxartdolls.com/Peacemaker.html
-
"
"Ok, now I think you're not being truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the one to say NA."
I know I am swaying off topic, in some areas of the country when you say Indian, everyone thinks you're a DOT, so in areas with large DOT populations the term NA is used more often. That's my observations anyway.
-
Well........If I may.........as I am a tad bit more than 1/16 Cherokee and was born on the rez... I have a BIG problem with people selling our heritage on the internet. These people ought to be ashamed of themselves......And I know for a fact that Creator shakes his head in disgust. Our BLOOD is not for sale!!!!!!! Neither is OUR heritage!!
-
"For the most part, I don't see anything that refutes what I earlier said about your group:"
As I stated in my earlier response, it is not my group, I am not a member. I do know members, and I know their ultimate goal is to do good.
"I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind."
Once again, they are not my group, I was only offering a bit more information based on my own research of the group. I believe that you are ascribing intentions without knowing their true intentions by using the term fleece. I have seen no efforts to entice people to pay beyond asking for the donation to cover the cost of printing membership cards. If they were asking hundreds of dollars, maybe then I would say fleece also, but they are asking a nominal fee.
You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.
The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans."
Once again, I am not Tsalagi, nor do I play one in real life. I am learning as I go about many cultures in an effort to learn, understand, and remove ignorance. If I demanding my "heritage" it would be Huron if my aunts findings are true. But then again, I did a cursory search and found no evidence to back up my aunts assertions, so I have let it be. Though I found the Wendat in Quebec to be much more helpful on my path than the stories I have heard from Cherokees seeking to reconnect. You say that they should go to an actual Cherokee and listen and learn. I have heard from many who have tried and been turned away. One woman had contacted the Eastern band and was told "Yeah, yeah, everyone has a g-g-grandmother who was a Cherokee Princess" and hung up on. She never mentioned anything about Cherokee Princess, yet the assumption was made and she was dismissed. I have heard many other stories like this from people who have found that their heritage had been hidden from them by their ancestors due to Indian Schools, hiding amongst the whites so as not to be relocated from their homes, etc. As they are finding their roots, they wish to learn and are being turned away.
"But some of what I said I was glad you had enough courage to be honest about the wrongness some leaders were doing:"
I never said they were wrong, simply that they are stumbling along, trying to find their way. Their hearts appear good, but they need better organizational skills."
"Could you tell us this leader's actual name was?"
I thought I did, but maybe not, Chief Speaks With Spirits Name is Angie Rose.
"This next part, though, had a bit of persecution complex common to many PODIAs:
"John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders."
Are you kidding? There are probably more mixedblood leaders elected to office than fullbloods. Certainly that was true immediately after the IRA govts were first set up. Nearly all of that first wave of IRA govts were mixedblood led.
And plenty of non-NDNs are respected for their help to NDNs."
I don't think it is persecution, I merely was pointing out that throughout Tsalagi history, some whites have been seen as brothers. You were the one who attacked Bear Warrior for being half Puerto Rican.
"I think most of us, and most NDNs in general, would agree with your point about the disenrollment happening in some tribal nations. Where we strongly disagree is that a group passing itself off as a "tribe" is the solution."
I don't believe they have passed themselves off as a Tribe. They call the state groups clans, yes, but they never claimed to be a separate tribe. And yes, they use the title Chief for the leaders of the state groups/clans. Once again, though, they have never said they were a separate Tribe.
"Some of what you believe shows Nuage influence whether you realize it or not:"
Not all New Age is bad. And yes, I have many influences as I have studied Buddhism, Hindu, and the healing arts of our Asian brothers and sisters. I have also studied some Black medicine ways such as the Healing Drums of the Minianka of Mali. I have studied of the ways of the Aztec Curandero which is a blending of Native, African, and Spanish medicine. I have studied Medicine ways of Native Americans and the healing herbs that are available to me locally. I have studied the ways of the shaman of Europe and other countries. Why have I done this? Because of something I read about bringing the wisdom of the colors together. The only way to do this is to remove the ignorance and walk with no preconceived notions. I have seen the benefits of yoga, Reiki, and even aroma therapy. I don't dismiss them simply because they are New Age. I actually hate that term as it has become prejudicial. I hear many Native Americans spit the word out as if it were bile. Yet, in truth, those who truly follow these beliefs and are not out to take advantage of others have great hearts and wish only to bring healing. If you researched, you would find that many New Age beliefs and healing arts have ancient beginnings. So the whole idea of it being New is a misnomer. It is a rediscovery. I am not a New Ager, only a learner. I walk with an open heart and try not to judge. In this way, I have learned a great deal that may be needed in the years to come.
"I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together"
I can almost hear "Kum Bay Yah" being sung in the background."
Why do you feel the need to be derogatory? What is wrong with trying to bring the people together?
"Many of those prophecies you read are false, Nuage distortions. The Mayan calendar just ends in 2012. It doesn't predict disaster. In fact it doesn't say anything. It was just a randomly chosen point to end at."
Hmmm, yes, in my prayers once I asked, what is the truth? I was told, "If I gave you the truth, you wouldn't have the journey". Maybe the Hopi Bear Clan Prophecy is false, I have read that Rainbow Eagle's Anishinabe Peace Shield is. I have heard prophesies from the Apache from Apaches. Maybe they are lying to me too. Maybe the whole world is a lie. Maybe you have lied. I don't know. It is hard to know what to believe in this world anymore. I have been told many things from Native Americans. Are they all lies? I have stated that the Mayan Calendar may be just another Millenium and that the clock will tick over and everything will just continue on. However, there has been research done that shows patterns that align with the Mayan Calendar and the "predictions". One of these researchers, a man named Calleman, actually states that things will come to a head in Oct of 2011, not 21 Dec 2012. I would have to read more, as I only read one book on this so as to become more familiar with what people are talking about. Once again, reading to try to remove ignorance. I have stacks of books covering all kinds of subjects, usually reading two or three at a time and following it up with online research. Knowledge removes ignorance and brings us closer as we remove the barriers of understanding.
And the sun going "solar maximum?
I believe someone else all ready responded. From what I gather, it is a cycle that has been going on for a great many years. The cycle is about eleven years in length going from solar minimum where there is little solar activity to solar maximum where there is increased activity. This activity causes a reaction on the earth. It could manifest as more storms, more severe storms, even earthquakes. Of course, events here on earth also effect the sun as we are in a symbionic relationship. Scientists are currently analyzing the anomoly of 2005 that brought us higher solar activity than predicted and Hurricane Katrina. There is a lot more, if you are interested, but I think this is getting a bit off topic.
-
Osiyo WhiteWolf,
I just visted the UPCN site and noticed many of the "Chiefs" under the "Tribe Council" are no longer there. Have they left?
I also noticed that many of the teachings and heritage of the ancestors have been copied and pasted and not written by "TRIBAL" council/members at all.
So I ask you just how much does this "Tribe" know about the Cherokee language, ceremonies, traditions? Do they know what a True Elder is? How about the Medicine people they have appointed/ or self appointed, do they know the traditional way of Medicine People?
With all do respect I would like to know these things as to thier own personal knowledge and not something from a book.
Wado Weheli
-
whitewolf, I will address this to you since you seem to be the spokesperson for the group.
I would like to add that I agree with educatedindian about the blind leading the blind when it comes to the group.
I have only one example to share which is not from research on the group but actually my wife did cross paths with one of the "chiefs". One of the "chiefs" did have on the group web page a small bio on himself, in this bio he stated he had been named by a certain elder and was taught by this elder. My wife knew this elder and his family. When pressed he did admit to her he had only met the elder once at that was at a pow wow. The elder jokingly told this"chief" he reminded him of a coyote, and hence this was how the "chief"justified how he received a name. After emails back and forth, the"chief" did pull off the web page the elder's name.
I was taught that not all people have the rights to perform ceremonies, even if you are an elder. These rites are passed from one having the position to another that show the worthiness to carry the rites.
The rights to perform ceremonies are earned not self appointed, just like the title "chief" is not a self appointed position.
In my opinion, any that self appoint themselves shows the lack of knowledge on traditions, regardless of what year we live in, there is still protocol traditionally how things are done. I myself would like to see what the group has done that would follow these traditional guidelines. Doing volunteer work is a great service to those in need but it doesn't have anything to do on a traditional level. Let's face it, I could do volunteer work 24-7, put up a web page listing recipes, traditional plants used for medicines, but it still doesn't make me traditional nor indian. Just like the old cliche going into a garage doesn't make you a car.
-
I will have to go back and check out the site. I wouldn't exactly say that I am the spokesman for the group. I encountered them a year ago and know a few of the people. From the emails going back and forth it seemed like they were trying to do something good. I hadn't heard about Crazy Coyote and how he got his name. Most of the people I have met have good hearts. They do want to do some good.
Maybe the group is falling apart. I note that the messages in the UPCN forum on Yahoo have slowed to a dwindle and are mostly reposts.
Weheli, a question if I may? I am under the understanding that an elder is addressed Osiyo and other siyo? Is this so? If it is, then please, I am just a man, so Siyo is fine.
I am only here to learn and grow. I was told about this forum so that I could check people out when I encountered them. Of course, many are not listed, like the Mohawk "Medicine Man" who was giving classes in Mediumship. I am still on the fence with that one as I took the course in my early days and had an experience where I managed to bring healing to a woman who had lost her child. So while part of me thinks that using the spirits in such a fashion is wrong, I also saw that healing can be brought about if used in a good way. In other words, listening to the spirits to bring healing and not just to perform parlor tricks.
To be truthful, sometimes I think it better to just walk alone and go to the woods whenever I need guidance. Right now, I am spiritually devoid as I have no elder to guide me. All I have is my prayers and the woods. I had a dream many years ago where I was told that I was to bring the people together. I came back to the path I was on before my parents forced me into becoming Catholic. The problem I face is that the path is overgrown and barely discernable. I fear I am becoming disillusioned. I don't think there is any way to bring the people together. There is no truth anymore. I am told that even the prophesies that speak of hope are "nuage lies". I will leave this group now as it is depressing.
-
WhiteWolf,
Osiyo(chee-O) means hello and Siyo is just a short version of Osiyo. It has nothing to do with Elders. Both are hello.
Walking the path alone and going to the woods to pray is not a bad thing for then you have only you and Creator and the Great Spirit, which I may add is a great teacher. Much can be said about being quite and listening to all that is around you.
Wado Weheli